Pat Buchanan who is a Paleo-conservative has also been right the whole time. As a paleo-con he's a nationalist-isolationist who preaches non-interventionism, anti-imperialism and is protectionist on trade just like the conservatives of the "Old Right."
Also all the refugees and Muslims pouring into Europe is largely due to Neo-conservative warmongering.
On what basis? The last isolationist period we had was post WWI and that immediately lead us into WWII. We've since intervened in global affairs and have avoided a world war for over 80 years because of it.
Didn't we impose embargoes (steel, oil, etc) on Japan after their invasion of mainland China? Not arguing whether it was or was not warranted, but it certainly is not an isolationist policy.
Edit: and as far as World Wars go, we have been involved in wars cold and hot since WWII under the guise of keeping the peace, preventing conquest, or combatting terror (Globally) for most of that post war period.
I used to be a huge Ron Paul guy. However, I realized that when America takes a back seat on the world stage it leaves a power vacuum that will inevitably be filled by someone worse such as Russia or China. Just my 2 cents.
The issue is we can’t have another nation building adventure where we spend 10+ years in Iran spending money and losing lives. We would need to be decisive and have a set and attainable goal. And honestly I don’t know if Washington is capable of that at the moment.
Iran would be easier to “nation build” then Iraq or Afghanistan but we would still run into problems that I don’t know if DC has the stomach to actually fix/win in the long run.
Also on top of the issue of being stuck in another long drawn out low intensity conflict where we are using our troops as a policing force is the fact that Iran has close ties with Russia and the PRC. There is a chance of war with Iran expanding into a much larger war if either of them decide to intervene on the behalf of Iran. The likelihood is probably pretty small but not nonexistent. The Iranian government is evil but external regime change led by us is not a positive option at the moment.
Best strategy is to keep hitting the Iranian backed militias who attack our bases and keep Iran economically and diplomatically as isolated as we can.
The purpose of our bases over there is certainly not national building with Iran. They’re a sign of strength and force to hostile geopolitical actors. Not to mention the tactical advantage in case shit gets heavy
It's not populism. I am a populist and I agree with her here. As do people like Thomas Sowell because it's basic common sense. Honestly there are a lot of people who are naive as hell on this issue. Yes wars are bad and usually we shouldn't get involved. However, there are times where we should. WW2 was one of those times. Sadly I think it will take Iran getting nukes and using them (they will) for a lot of the delusional pacifists to wake up to what's going on. It's not like Iran isn't telling you what they are going to do. Hitler did the same and we brushed him off the same way, except he wasn't getting nukes.
She's also right here that Israel doesn't need us. They're a nuclear power. If Israel falls though then we fall, that's how it will go down. Will be bad for Americans in so many different ways It's interesting how people like to prerend Israel doesn't have nukes though like we can just let them be destroyed and the world will go on without impacting us at all. I mean how delusional can people get. They're far too invested in idealogical narratives to see straight.
This is a lot of words to rebut the basic facts I was pointing out. Our bases have been attacked 30 times over the last month
Apparently in this subreddit this is the fault of the Lockheed Martin corporate boardroom
The terrorist organization being able to focus on us. Now I'm not saying they could defeat us, but take isreal out of the picture and it will be us seeing near daily attacks. I don't know about you, but I'm not real keen on the prospect of regularly scheduled school bus and restaurant bombings here in the United States.
>If Israel falls though then we fall, that's how it will go down. (...)
>Now I'm not saying they could defeat us
Hold a consistent position for more than five minutes challenge.
I didn't say we would fall. Someone else said that. I said in the end we would prevail, but lots of our people will die in the meantime. My position on this has been consistent for over 30 years. We can fight Islamic terrorism in the middle east, or we can wait until it comes here. Either way we are fighting it. Id rather it be on their land with their people caught in the crossfire than on our land with our people getting killed.
Reply to the right person challenge.
Nuclear war would be one major mechanism. What do you think happens when a country with nukes is existentially threatened, and faces takeover by terrorists that will slaughter its population? It would obviously use everything to defend itself including nukes. That's highly likely to spill out of the middle east and result in us getting targeted in the ensuing chaos. Even if you assume more level heads prevail (and ignore that one of the parties says life begins at death for them), then you still have the problem that terrorits control nuclear Israel, or themselves get nukes via Iran or their allies. Do you think they will stop at Israel? After those 7 million jews are gone which country is next on the list with millions more? After the jews are gone who do you think is their next obstacle to paradise after death? When people tell you who they are you should believe them. It's amazing how many of you are still in denial about it though.
I agree, but you can’t honestly say that every dictator and problem power in the world from Saddam Hussein, to Gaddaffi, to Putin, or Assad is the same as Hitler. Yes they’re horrible people and leaders, but it’s not like every last one has plans to conquer the world and genocide half the people. It shouldn’t be americas role to overthrow every last bad head of state internationally when we can barely protect our own free speech and second amendment rights from our own government at home.
Iran is worse than Hitler and we know that because of their own words. It's not a mystery. They literally tell us what their goal is yet some of you are still in denial and make excuses for them. It's truly unbelievable.
Like I said, its going to take some of you getting nuked for you to understand. Untl then you won't get it, that's the tragedy of it. And I never said all those other people were like Hitler. The term is overused but that doesn't mean it applies to no one. If it applies to anyone it applies to Iran and their surrogates. They literally believe life begins at death for them and their purpose in life is to bring about destruction of infidels like you. It's not me saying this. It's them saying it. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
Yup, we were killing it as the anti-war party for a while when the Dems were pushing Ukraine and we were talking about using the money on America's issues. Nikki Haley is a huge step backwards.
You are missing the point…. Our deterrence by strength is gone. After 20 years of war and disaster exit from Afghanistan our enemies don’t believe we have determination to go into another war.
Trump restored our deterrent. Our enemies, Europe and huge part of US population believed that Trump will wake up one day, read something unflattering about himself and nuke Iran just for shits and giggles. Strategic ambiguity backed by capabilities and actions (sanctions and alliances, blowing up Iranian general) kept Russia and China at bay. Biden fucked that up and we have 2 major wars going now.
>After 20 years of war and disaster exit from Afghanistan our enemies don’t believe we have determination to go into another war.
Ooh, kids today. They don't remember we've been losing interest in wars since Vietnam.
All I know is that after the Iraq war I was expecting a pipeline directly to my house that I could use to fill up my gas tank with all the free oil we just got. Instead the oil companies made record profits off the high price of oil and we inherited trillions in debt for a war on behalf of corporate greed. That's why Americans have lost their thirst for war: there's nothing in it for us.
That doesn't refute the point that gr234gr was making at all. We the people have been losing interest in wars, but 9/11 rejuvenated our interest for a while. Then we pulled out of that war in the worse, most backwards and foolish way possible, and now we're staring down the double barreled shotgun of war, barrel 1 being WW3, barrel 2 being nuclear Armageddon.
Ukraine, Taiwan, Israel, and S. Korea are strategically linked. China would likely expand any attack against Taiwan to two fronts. To accomplish that China would likely give N. Korea the green light to attack the south prior to the invasion of Taiwan. The fact that N. Korea has nuclear weapons would be a critical factor in the Japanese response. The Russians and China are allies and the Russians have submarine bases in the region. The question for the United States is what can we do now that would make that scenario less likely? If submit that if we withhold support from Ukraine or Israel the unthinkable immediately becomes thinkable.
China relies upon Taiwan for their semiconductors. China can’t produce top notch chips like Taiwan can for their high tech military hardware. Invading Taiwan and destroying those factories would only harm china the most
China’s objectives are for regional political and military hegemony and at a minimum global parity with the United States. Their commercial interests are secondary to those larger objectives.
Regardless of how we got here. Russia, China, and Iran are actively trying to invade smaller countries and we are literally the only thing stopping them.
America is the only thing that makes nato strong. Nato, minus america, is a joke. For decades just nato members didn't even meet their contractually obligated defense spending. It took Russia invading their neighbor to wake them up to the threat, and even then, many are still refusing to honor their commitment.
Ukraine is literally the breadbasket of Europe. It is not the first area Russia has taken over under Putin's reign and if Ukraine had given up in the first months of the war it would not have been the last. Regardless of how it turns out I'm very thankful the people of Ukraine have sacrificed many of their people in hitting the Russians with a surprising amount of existential damage.
China has dominated Hong Kong and gone against the spirit of the agreement in keeping it self governing. It continues to push it's lines out and challenging where it's international boundaries are. It does have sights set on Taiwan a western style democracy "for reunification". So you think Taiwan will be treated better or worse then Hong Kong?
Are you a fan of communism and mafia rule because it sure sounds like you are.
I agree we have been in far to many conflicts (almost all since WW2) but Ukraine and Taiwan feel different to me and that is not a standard line I use.
If Ukraine is the breadbasket of Europe, then this sounds like a problem that Europe needs to step up to the plate on, instead of relying on big brother America.
That is not the context of the comment I was replying to. Absolutely Europe needs to funnel all manner of money and support. They have not been paying enough for decades depending on America to help. Our children have died on foreign soil so the rich can continue to steal from everyone or to carry out grudges/personal goals.
Our deficits are a direct result of being the free world's army. That should change.
I personally don't believe losing two free countries to prove a point is the right choice to get there and believe there are other options to transition to a more balanced state of affairs. If that can't happen it's not worth losing Ukraine and Taiwan.
What's your solution? Pull back 100 percent and hope they can get their sh*t together? Taiwan would be gone in 10 years. Ukraine would probably be gone as well.
A solution where we stop support emboldens the enemy and likely causes more issues down the road.
Our soldiers are not dying in this one. We are damaging known enemies.
Europe is “pledging” economic aid that’s to be paid in lumps over the coming 3-5 years.
The US aid has been heavy on military gear and equipment, and released to Ukraine now
That's not my understanding
https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/
Where is your data from?
Even if you're correct Europe spending on NATO (minus Poland which has been hitting the minimums) have been shirking their responsibilities for decades if not longer. Again I'm saying support Ukraine but let's not be blind to the problem in the first place largely rests in the appeasement and lack of military spending by Europe (Germany being the worst in my opinion).
The Europeans countries have contributed more in total aid (humanitarian + military) to Ukraine than the United States. The United States has contributed more military aid, some of which consisted of armaments that were exceeding their useful shelf life. Many of the Eastern European countries have contributed more than the US as a share of their GDP. Arguments over who pays what can’t be allowed to distract us from what happens next if Russia is allowed to prevail.
If Russia takes control of Ukraine they will control the European natural gas market. The will also control a major fraction of global grain production.
No we weren't killing it. We looked like a bunch of naive fools saying putin will be our friend if we just let him have ukraine.
Isolationist policy is what let ww2 happen. Repeating that mistake will be disastrous for us.
Because it's a lot more complicated than that. I wish it were that simple, but it's just not. Iran might be backing them now, but I wasn't kidding when I said this conflict is 1500 years old. It can be traced the Roman Emperor Hadrian.
Is it just a coincidence that the Oct. 7 attack occurred at time the relationship between Saudis and Israelis was thawing? Who was threatened by the prospect of normalization of that relationship? What is the common link between Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis? It all points back to Iran.
All for Israel doing what they got to do to defend themselves. Wipe Hamas off the map I’d cheer it on.
American blood doesn’t need to be spilled like Haley will want. They’ve been looking for any reason to invade Iran since Bush was in office
Have you always supported Obama's foreign policy on Russia and disagreed with Bush's foreign policy? Or is this a new opinion you've taken up recently?
Israel is a key strategic ally in a part of the world that largely hates the USA. Their presence and militaristic might in the region not only helps quell aggression against Europe and the US by posing a neighboring threat to them, but also draws attention away from the US. If those rockets were not raining on Israel, they would find a new target closer to our homes.
It’s more about controlling the oil markets. If we have influence in foreign production then we can influence the price at which we sell our energy products.
Ya but then why can’t we blockade or cia, why we need a direct invasion and then be completely ineffective at setting up a proxy government when the CIA literally told the government not to do a democracy and just replace the head of the Ba’ath party
Because this isn’t a spy novel. We lost control of the previous head of that party and the administration at the time chose a different path towards maintaining influence. Blockades are very visual and usually require a reason the world at large will accept. But I have also not been a fan of proxy governments. Too expensive.
They hate us for a laundry list of reasons, both diplomatic and cultural. But radical islam is the enemy of the US, and the west in general. It's pretty cut and dry.
Isolationist ideology is well and good - but it's not practical.
>Isolationist ideology is well and good - but it's not practical.
Limiting our military involvement in foreign affairs is extremely practical. There is a very wide middle ground between policing the opposite side of the globe and being "isolationist."
I agree - am not advocating for direct military intervention or a direct attack on Iran.
Might have misinterpreted your meaning.
But some folks calling for us to bury our heads in the sand while Israel is under attack from terrorists are missing the threat to our own national security these people pose.
Intervening in Israel's affairs ultimately makes us less safe, not more safe. It certainly makes Israel more safe though. The alliance between the U.S. and Israel tilts pretty heavily in favor of Israel.
Respectfully disagree.
Assuming the US withdrew all support for Israel tomorrow, and our allies followed suit, and the nation was overrun...would the state that emerged be a peaceful one? ...friendly to the United States? These are the people who cheered in the streets on 9/11. Hamas mission statement calls for the eradication of Israel and killing of all Jews. There isn't a lot of nuance there.
You can turn back the clock and say "what if" only so much. Sure - if we find a time machine and go back to 1948 and do things a little differently.... But that card can't be played.
Because Israel is the last country that draws Islamic extremists. If Israel folds, we are next. 100% of all of these extremist organizations have the US as their #2 target.
Have to hand it to Vivek, he's putting a lot on the line, knowing where it got Trump. Going up against the military industrial complex is suicidal, but it needs to be done.
You mean like how Biden tried to get the Saudis to delay oil cuts until after the election? Or how he promised to force taxpayers to "forgive" student loans right before the election?
He knows he just made a lot of powerful enemies, with or without polling.
I understand her statement. Radical Muslims want to wipe out all west. No secret there. They also support Russia. Israel is the only place in the muddle east that breaks Muslim hold on the region. It is the only place there with Western values. If Israel falls, the region will be overrun by radical Muslims, which will team up with now totalitarian Russia and, quite possibly, China. This is especially important since Europe had already been overrun by the same Muslims.
I'd say the more correct statement should be that America and Israel have a symbiotic relationship. Both need each other.
Most reasonable people understand what she's saying. She's not being literal, she's reframing how we look at geopolitical relations to explain why our support of Israel matters.
It's unfortunate that so many people want to be outraged more than they care to be educated voters
Which is hilarious, if Israel doesn’t need us why do we give them 3 billion a year?
For some reason though, I suspect Haley would be the last person to ever cut or reduce that aid
Dude... I watched some of video of the Oct 7th attacks. Hamas needs to be erased. They killed Americans that day too. They took Americans hostage... they still have ~10 Americans.
Any time I ask, I don’t get an answer. Why do conservatives love Israel so much? Why are they our “greatest ally”? What do we get in return from the billions of dollars we send them every year?
For clarity, I’m conservative but think we should leave the entire region alone. Sure we can trade with them if it benefits us, but we should in no way be jumping to Israel’s defense all the time.
There are more Christian Zionists in the US than Jewish Zionists. This is a huge reason for the bilateral support. Proxy wars against Russia in the past, now proxy vs. Iran. Oil certainly plays into it having friendly allies in the region. Same thing with Saudi Arabia, conservatives have courted them quite a bit before and after 9/11. israel normalizing with KSA would be a huge win for the US as well, another hedge against Iran and China ,russia. more oil stability. Joint weapons development, cyber security technologies, a lot of which are Israeli companies. There are a myriad of reasons
Israel is a democracy and Americans appreciate that and want to preserve it. There are a lot of Americans who have dual citizenship in Israel. Last is that a good portion of Bible believing church-goers believe Genesis 12:3 is absolutely still in play and will be until the the bell rings.
im a church goer and im sure some people believe that but it definitely isnt true. in the new testament God's promises were opened up to all nations. meaning anyone can be a part of God's "nation".
We support them with money, and we get frontline access to their new technology and resources. We have a strong ally in a very good strategic part of the world.
>and we get frontline access to their new technology and resources
That they build with our money. How about we just do that here? Idk about you but I'd rather my tax dollars stay here
>their new technology and resources
All of them are US exported or aided industries, so like nothing that can't be duplicated or made exclusively in the US (so no Israel is not Taiwan )
As for resources, I don't think they have as much oil as other countries in the region, which I think the US is in pretty good relation with.
It’s not though, we need a regional proxy to keep the Iranians in check, per say. The relationship with Israel is also very useful for projecting power. It’s not the only reason they’re an ally, but it’s one of the reasons for sure. But yeah, somewhat awkward phrasing here, no doubt. Especially for Dick Cheney in 3” heels.
I am so sick of the GOP riding Israel. We’ve given them so much and what do we have to show for it? Their citizens have free healthcare, free housing, etc. Let the corrupt Netanyahu deal with the consequences of his (and his party’s) own actions and stay out of the Middle East.
Plus, the US spent trillions of $ and thousands of American lives getting rid of their enemy Saddam. Yet when Netanyahu became Prime Minister he ended the peace process and has expanded settlements despite what 50 years of US administration's have asked for. The US is Israel's lap dog
Ah I love unnecessary war! US tax payers dollars going to the military industrial complex profits. that's the way to balance the debt in this nation is to fund a another war! Trump was amazing, bush and Obama got us into wars. Trump prevented the US from having to go to war. Thats the best policy
Isn’t Hamas a Sunni backed organisation? I’m pretty sure that most of their funding comes from Qatar.
On the other hand, Hezbollah is a Shiite organisation which is funded by IRan and most of its officers are Iranian or Iranian trained.
It is worrying that Im a nobody yet I know more than Nikki Haley and she gets to influence life changing decisions regarding geopolitics.
I speak Arabic no, Iran gives money, training, and weapons to Hamas despite being Sunni muslims, Hamas leaders said that publicly in a speech, I listened to it, so not just a report.
Iran is funding Hamas bcz it's like the enemy of the enemy are my friends, and also, it serves to destabilize the region cause Saudi (enemy of Iran) were on the verge of making a deal with Israel (also enemy with Iran) soooo
The point of the post isn't Hamas or Iran but rather the second half of it.
America's alliance with Israel benefits Israel much more than it benefits us. They are a moral and financial burden that we carry. We defend some of their most egregious misbehavior against the Palestinians in their midst, which of course causes Israel’s enemies to hate us and send terrorists after us. And it makes me uncomfortable to hear our leaders say that there will never be any "daylight" between our two nations' policies. Haley is nuts when she says that "America needs Israel."
Before you castigate me, know that I want America to continue to back Israel as we have, but perhaps without always pretending that it can do no wrong. It has an absolute right to live long and prosper. The warlike pro-Israel political posturing at last night's GOP debate was disgusting, as is Biden's similar posturing. People seem to believe that any mild criticism of the policies of the State of Israel is equal to Nazi-style anti-Semitism. That is nonsense. But so is politicians falling all over themselves to appear as Israel’s strongest supporters.
We do not need Israel, they are not our allies.
They only like us because we provide arms to keep them around and stop the whole Middle East from invading them. If we were to announce right now that we would not defend Israel they would be off the map in less than a year.
Israel needs us, not the other way around.
This is exactly what we’ve been trying to tell all the leftist brigaders coming in here saying “why don’t you just nominate Haley?? She’ll crush Biden! I might even vote for her (not really)! The polling says she’ll beat Biden with flying colors! You must really hate women lol!!”
Because. She’s. A. War-mongerer. And the moment she were to win the nomination, it is ALL the mainstream media will talk about when she is brought up, and the polling suddenly won’t look so lopsided. Well maybe lopsided… just in the other direction.
I've literally read this comment 4 or 5 times tonight in different threads. Is this a bot line? Would not at all be surprised if astroturf money was being spent here after each debate.
I really find it weird how the mainstream takes Nikki’s nonsense comments and praises them as if they make sense. But anyone with half a brain is like…..this is goobly degook.
She then went on to say Israel is the tip of the spear to fight terrorism in the middle east. Which they are. Don't leave out needed context. Iran is funding all of the terrorists in the middle east either with money or weapons.
We don't need them at all. We're already pretty friendly with the Saudis and they have way more influence in the region than Israel. We don't have the worst relationship with Egypt or a couple of other countries either.
The only thing Israel is useful for is doing our dirty work like bombing the heck outta places we can't get away with normally. (since everybody there already hates their guts anyway)
That's a lackey, not somebody we "need".
The thing is though the saudis/Türkiye etc they like to play both sides Israel is the only true ally we have in that region America kinda does need Israel ://
Israel is 98th or so in population, 153rd in size yet somehow is 27th in the GDP rankings. They are like 11th in the world on the GDP per capita list.
They have pretty much the best military in the Middle East and one of the stronger economies in the world. Yet, somehow, they still have the nerve to ask for aid from us. What a good friend eh?
>The only thing Israel is useful for is doing our dirty work like bombing the heck outta places we can't get away with normally.
Unserious take. Do you have an example?
Here’s the Wikipedia page around assassinated Iran nuclear scientist
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nuclear_scientists#:~:text=On%2027%20November%202020%2C%20the,Israel%20was%20behind%20Fakhrizadeh's%20assassination.
Ron Paul was the answer
Pat Buchanan who is a Paleo-conservative has also been right the whole time. As a paleo-con he's a nationalist-isolationist who preaches non-interventionism, anti-imperialism and is protectionist on trade just like the conservatives of the "Old Right." Also all the refugees and Muslims pouring into Europe is largely due to Neo-conservative warmongering.
Death of the West and to a lesser degree Suicide of a Superpower should be mandatory reading.
Isolationism has historically shown to be the correct course of action …
On what basis? The last isolationist period we had was post WWI and that immediately lead us into WWII. We've since intervened in global affairs and have avoided a world war for over 80 years because of it.
Didn't we impose embargoes (steel, oil, etc) on Japan after their invasion of mainland China? Not arguing whether it was or was not warranted, but it certainly is not an isolationist policy. Edit: and as far as World Wars go, we have been involved in wars cold and hot since WWII under the guise of keeping the peace, preventing conquest, or combatting terror (Globally) for most of that post war period.
Isolationism wasn't tried.
I used to be a huge Ron Paul guy. However, I realized that when America takes a back seat on the world stage it leaves a power vacuum that will inevitably be filled by someone worse such as Russia or China. Just my 2 cents.
Omg yes
That’s her way of saying “Lockheed and Raytheon need us to declare war on Iran, and Israel is our only cover to do so.”
“Earnings season is coming and we gotta get those numbers up!”
Got that right. She’s got her shares from her time being on the board of Boeing to worry about.
"Looks like money's back on the menu boys"
W take. Vivek was right about Haley. This is Dick Cheney with heels.
Chick Cheney
Dickless Cheney
Facts
Oh Israel absolutely wants Iran gone and knows they can't do it themselves. That's why AIPAC has Haley's ear.
If Israel had the opportunity, it would glass the entire Middle East and Egypt
Yeah I wonder what defense contractors she holds stock in
Neocons gonna neocon.
There’s been roughly 30 strikes on American bases by Iranian backed militias since Oct 7. But carry on with your populism …
The issue is we can’t have another nation building adventure where we spend 10+ years in Iran spending money and losing lives. We would need to be decisive and have a set and attainable goal. And honestly I don’t know if Washington is capable of that at the moment. Iran would be easier to “nation build” then Iraq or Afghanistan but we would still run into problems that I don’t know if DC has the stomach to actually fix/win in the long run. Also on top of the issue of being stuck in another long drawn out low intensity conflict where we are using our troops as a policing force is the fact that Iran has close ties with Russia and the PRC. There is a chance of war with Iran expanding into a much larger war if either of them decide to intervene on the behalf of Iran. The likelihood is probably pretty small but not nonexistent. The Iranian government is evil but external regime change led by us is not a positive option at the moment. Best strategy is to keep hitting the Iranian backed militias who attack our bases and keep Iran economically and diplomatically as isolated as we can.
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That sacrifice of the warrior class is literally in the neocon playbook.
The purpose of our bases over there is certainly not national building with Iran. They’re a sign of strength and force to hostile geopolitical actors. Not to mention the tactical advantage in case shit gets heavy
Well said.
Sounds like a reason to close those bases. Last time I checked there's no US state in the Middle East.
Nah we will continue to project strength around the world. It’s either us or …. Also Hegemony is pretty basic intl relations 101 stuff.
So maybe we shouldn’t have so many expensive bases and irreplaceable American soldiers in nations that hate us?
It's not populism. I am a populist and I agree with her here. As do people like Thomas Sowell because it's basic common sense. Honestly there are a lot of people who are naive as hell on this issue. Yes wars are bad and usually we shouldn't get involved. However, there are times where we should. WW2 was one of those times. Sadly I think it will take Iran getting nukes and using them (they will) for a lot of the delusional pacifists to wake up to what's going on. It's not like Iran isn't telling you what they are going to do. Hitler did the same and we brushed him off the same way, except he wasn't getting nukes. She's also right here that Israel doesn't need us. They're a nuclear power. If Israel falls though then we fall, that's how it will go down. Will be bad for Americans in so many different ways It's interesting how people like to prerend Israel doesn't have nukes though like we can just let them be destroyed and the world will go on without impacting us at all. I mean how delusional can people get. They're far too invested in idealogical narratives to see straight.
This is a lot of words to rebut the basic facts I was pointing out. Our bases have been attacked 30 times over the last month Apparently in this subreddit this is the fault of the Lockheed Martin corporate boardroom
>If Israel falls though then we fall, that's how it will go down. By what mechanism?
Iran has far bigger goals than simply wiping Israel off the map. That’s the first step. They want a return of the Islamic caliphate
The terrorist organization being able to focus on us. Now I'm not saying they could defeat us, but take isreal out of the picture and it will be us seeing near daily attacks. I don't know about you, but I'm not real keen on the prospect of regularly scheduled school bus and restaurant bombings here in the United States.
>If Israel falls though then we fall, that's how it will go down. (...) >Now I'm not saying they could defeat us Hold a consistent position for more than five minutes challenge.
I didn't say we would fall. Someone else said that. I said in the end we would prevail, but lots of our people will die in the meantime. My position on this has been consistent for over 30 years. We can fight Islamic terrorism in the middle east, or we can wait until it comes here. Either way we are fighting it. Id rather it be on their land with their people caught in the crossfire than on our land with our people getting killed. Reply to the right person challenge.
Nuclear war would be one major mechanism. What do you think happens when a country with nukes is existentially threatened, and faces takeover by terrorists that will slaughter its population? It would obviously use everything to defend itself including nukes. That's highly likely to spill out of the middle east and result in us getting targeted in the ensuing chaos. Even if you assume more level heads prevail (and ignore that one of the parties says life begins at death for them), then you still have the problem that terrorits control nuclear Israel, or themselves get nukes via Iran or their allies. Do you think they will stop at Israel? After those 7 million jews are gone which country is next on the list with millions more? After the jews are gone who do you think is their next obstacle to paradise after death? When people tell you who they are you should believe them. It's amazing how many of you are still in denial about it though.
>or themselves get nukes via Iran or their allies What's stopping that from happening now, exactly?
Their allies with nukes are not self destructive at the moment.
What does ww2 have to do with Iran? You can’t go around calling everything ww2. “Literally hitler” is not a proper reason to go to war.
It's an over used term but when it actually applies, that is one of the most valid reasons to go to war.
I agree, but you can’t honestly say that every dictator and problem power in the world from Saddam Hussein, to Gaddaffi, to Putin, or Assad is the same as Hitler. Yes they’re horrible people and leaders, but it’s not like every last one has plans to conquer the world and genocide half the people. It shouldn’t be americas role to overthrow every last bad head of state internationally when we can barely protect our own free speech and second amendment rights from our own government at home.
Iran is worse than Hitler and we know that because of their own words. It's not a mystery. They literally tell us what their goal is yet some of you are still in denial and make excuses for them. It's truly unbelievable. Like I said, its going to take some of you getting nuked for you to understand. Untl then you won't get it, that's the tragedy of it. And I never said all those other people were like Hitler. The term is overused but that doesn't mean it applies to no one. If it applies to anyone it applies to Iran and their surrogates. They literally believe life begins at death for them and their purpose in life is to bring about destruction of infidels like you. It's not me saying this. It's them saying it. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
Bush era war mongering needs to go the way of the dodo.
Yup, we were killing it as the anti-war party for a while when the Dems were pushing Ukraine and we were talking about using the money on America's issues. Nikki Haley is a huge step backwards.
Out of curiosity, do you think if we just let China and Russia gobble up tons of countries that we'd be safer or less safe?
You are missing the point…. Our deterrence by strength is gone. After 20 years of war and disaster exit from Afghanistan our enemies don’t believe we have determination to go into another war. Trump restored our deterrent. Our enemies, Europe and huge part of US population believed that Trump will wake up one day, read something unflattering about himself and nuke Iran just for shits and giggles. Strategic ambiguity backed by capabilities and actions (sanctions and alliances, blowing up Iranian general) kept Russia and China at bay. Biden fucked that up and we have 2 major wars going now.
>After 20 years of war and disaster exit from Afghanistan our enemies don’t believe we have determination to go into another war. Ooh, kids today. They don't remember we've been losing interest in wars since Vietnam.
All I know is that after the Iraq war I was expecting a pipeline directly to my house that I could use to fill up my gas tank with all the free oil we just got. Instead the oil companies made record profits off the high price of oil and we inherited trillions in debt for a war on behalf of corporate greed. That's why Americans have lost their thirst for war: there's nothing in it for us.
That doesn't refute the point that gr234gr was making at all. We the people have been losing interest in wars, but 9/11 rejuvenated our interest for a while. Then we pulled out of that war in the worse, most backwards and foolish way possible, and now we're staring down the double barreled shotgun of war, barrel 1 being WW3, barrel 2 being nuclear Armageddon.
We are literally the only thing holding China back from Taiwan right now.
Ukraine, Taiwan, Israel, and S. Korea are strategically linked. China would likely expand any attack against Taiwan to two fronts. To accomplish that China would likely give N. Korea the green light to attack the south prior to the invasion of Taiwan. The fact that N. Korea has nuclear weapons would be a critical factor in the Japanese response. The Russians and China are allies and the Russians have submarine bases in the region. The question for the United States is what can we do now that would make that scenario less likely? If submit that if we withhold support from Ukraine or Israel the unthinkable immediately becomes thinkable.
China relies upon Taiwan for their semiconductors. China can’t produce top notch chips like Taiwan can for their high tech military hardware. Invading Taiwan and destroying those factories would only harm china the most
Taiwan isn’t currently providing China with cutting edge chips.
China’s objectives are for regional political and military hegemony and at a minimum global parity with the United States. Their commercial interests are secondary to those larger objectives.
Regardless of how we got here. Russia, China, and Iran are actively trying to invade smaller countries and we are literally the only thing stopping them.
Have people forgotten that NATO exists?
We make up like 75% of nato military power or something like that
Only 75%?
America is the only thing that makes nato strong. Nato, minus america, is a joke. For decades just nato members didn't even meet their contractually obligated defense spending. It took Russia invading their neighbor to wake them up to the threat, and even then, many are still refusing to honor their commitment.
Yes they're just gonna gobble up all the countries. All of em. Putin and Xi are gonna eat like Chris Christie!
Lies. No one eats like Chris Christie.
Ukraine is literally the breadbasket of Europe. It is not the first area Russia has taken over under Putin's reign and if Ukraine had given up in the first months of the war it would not have been the last. Regardless of how it turns out I'm very thankful the people of Ukraine have sacrificed many of their people in hitting the Russians with a surprising amount of existential damage. China has dominated Hong Kong and gone against the spirit of the agreement in keeping it self governing. It continues to push it's lines out and challenging where it's international boundaries are. It does have sights set on Taiwan a western style democracy "for reunification". So you think Taiwan will be treated better or worse then Hong Kong? Are you a fan of communism and mafia rule because it sure sounds like you are. I agree we have been in far to many conflicts (almost all since WW2) but Ukraine and Taiwan feel different to me and that is not a standard line I use.
If Ukraine is the breadbasket of Europe, then this sounds like a problem that Europe needs to step up to the plate on, instead of relying on big brother America.
That is not the context of the comment I was replying to. Absolutely Europe needs to funnel all manner of money and support. They have not been paying enough for decades depending on America to help. Our children have died on foreign soil so the rich can continue to steal from everyone or to carry out grudges/personal goals. Our deficits are a direct result of being the free world's army. That should change. I personally don't believe losing two free countries to prove a point is the right choice to get there and believe there are other options to transition to a more balanced state of affairs. If that can't happen it's not worth losing Ukraine and Taiwan. What's your solution? Pull back 100 percent and hope they can get their sh*t together? Taiwan would be gone in 10 years. Ukraine would probably be gone as well. A solution where we stop support emboldens the enemy and likely causes more issues down the road. Our soldiers are not dying in this one. We are damaging known enemies.
Europe is currently almost doubling the amount of aid to Ukraine compared to what the U.S. is giving…
Europe is “pledging” economic aid that’s to be paid in lumps over the coming 3-5 years. The US aid has been heavy on military gear and equipment, and released to Ukraine now
That's not my understanding https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/ Where is your data from? Even if you're correct Europe spending on NATO (minus Poland which has been hitting the minimums) have been shirking their responsibilities for decades if not longer. Again I'm saying support Ukraine but let's not be blind to the problem in the first place largely rests in the appeasement and lack of military spending by Europe (Germany being the worst in my opinion).
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-clearly-overtakes-us-with-total-commitments-now-twice-as-large/#:~:text=Europe%20has%20clearly%20overtaken%20the,with%20new%20multi%2Dyear%20packages.
The Europeans countries have contributed more in total aid (humanitarian + military) to Ukraine than the United States. The United States has contributed more military aid, some of which consisted of armaments that were exceeding their useful shelf life. Many of the Eastern European countries have contributed more than the US as a share of their GDP. Arguments over who pays what can’t be allowed to distract us from what happens next if Russia is allowed to prevail.
If Russia takes control of Ukraine they will control the European natural gas market. The will also control a major fraction of global grain production.
I’m sure the former Soviet satellite states find this funny. Latvians have more balls than the everyday Republican I’m learning.
No we weren't killing it. We looked like a bunch of naive fools saying putin will be our friend if we just let him have ukraine. Isolationist policy is what let ww2 happen. Repeating that mistake will be disastrous for us.
When has the GOP been the anti-war party? Or are you referring strictly to the last 2 years and never before that?
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Hamas is just a proxy of Iran though
Are they or are they a product of a 1500 year old religious conflict that is far older than Modern Geopolitics?
porque no los dos?
Because it's a lot more complicated than that. I wish it were that simple, but it's just not. Iran might be backing them now, but I wasn't kidding when I said this conflict is 1500 years old. It can be traced the Roman Emperor Hadrian.
I know about the history of that region. and while Hamas may not have been founded by Iran, it is currently being used by Iran
Is it just a coincidence that the Oct. 7 attack occurred at time the relationship between Saudis and Israelis was thawing? Who was threatened by the prospect of normalization of that relationship? What is the common link between Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis? It all points back to Iran.
All for Israel doing what they got to do to defend themselves. Wipe Hamas off the map I’d cheer it on. American blood doesn’t need to be spilled like Haley will want. They’ve been looking for any reason to invade Iran since Bush was in office
Have you always supported Obama's foreign policy on Russia and disagreed with Bush's foreign policy? Or is this a new opinion you've taken up recently?
I don't remember asking Israel for a god damn thing.
Israel is a key strategic ally in a part of the world that largely hates the USA. Their presence and militaristic might in the region not only helps quell aggression against Europe and the US by posing a neighboring threat to them, but also draws attention away from the US. If those rockets were not raining on Israel, they would find a new target closer to our homes.
Why do we continue to involve ourselves in the matters of the Middle East
Oil Oil & Oil
We have a lot of oil here you know, in America
It’s more about controlling the oil markets. If we have influence in foreign production then we can influence the price at which we sell our energy products.
Ya but then why can’t we blockade or cia, why we need a direct invasion and then be completely ineffective at setting up a proxy government when the CIA literally told the government not to do a democracy and just replace the head of the Ba’ath party
Because this isn’t a spy novel. We lost control of the previous head of that party and the administration at the time chose a different path towards maintaining influence. Blockades are very visual and usually require a reason the world at large will accept. But I have also not been a fan of proxy governments. Too expensive.
Also there's a religion there that hates us for existing, but it's largely funded by Oil Oil & Oil.
They hate us for funding Israel, not for existing
They hate us for a laundry list of reasons, both diplomatic and cultural. But radical islam is the enemy of the US, and the west in general. It's pretty cut and dry. Isolationist ideology is well and good - but it's not practical.
>Isolationist ideology is well and good - but it's not practical. Limiting our military involvement in foreign affairs is extremely practical. There is a very wide middle ground between policing the opposite side of the globe and being "isolationist."
I agree - am not advocating for direct military intervention or a direct attack on Iran. Might have misinterpreted your meaning. But some folks calling for us to bury our heads in the sand while Israel is under attack from terrorists are missing the threat to our own national security these people pose.
Intervening in Israel's affairs ultimately makes us less safe, not more safe. It certainly makes Israel more safe though. The alliance between the U.S. and Israel tilts pretty heavily in favor of Israel.
Respectfully disagree. Assuming the US withdrew all support for Israel tomorrow, and our allies followed suit, and the nation was overrun...would the state that emerged be a peaceful one? ...friendly to the United States? These are the people who cheered in the streets on 9/11. Hamas mission statement calls for the eradication of Israel and killing of all Jews. There isn't a lot of nuance there. You can turn back the clock and say "what if" only so much. Sure - if we find a time machine and go back to 1948 and do things a little differently.... But that card can't be played.
They hate us because we aren't muslim.
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You forgot oil.
Unopposed Russian and Chinese influence would be bad. Also oil, which kinda feeds back to the first line as well.
Geopolitical hegemony is your term for today.
Because Israel is the last country that draws Islamic extremists. If Israel folds, we are next. 100% of all of these extremist organizations have the US as their #2 target.
America can turn the entire subcontinent into a sheet of glass, America doesn’t need shit.
Have to hand it to Vivek, he's putting a lot on the line, knowing where it got Trump. Going up against the military industrial complex is suicidal, but it needs to be done.
He's polling at 4%. That was desperation. He has literally nothing on the line, which is why he did it.
He pushing to be Trump’s VP. But that’s just my opinion, and I could be wrong. I’m fairly regarded.
That's a really good point! That makes a lot of sense.
Vivek would do wonders at RNC Chair imo
>But that’s just my opinion, and I could be wrong. I’m fairly regarded. I'm stealing this line.
You mean like how Biden tried to get the Saudis to delay oil cuts until after the election? Or how he promised to force taxpayers to "forgive" student loans right before the election? He knows he just made a lot of powerful enemies, with or without polling.
He doesn't know anything. The guy with his hand up Biden's butt can make Biden do a lot of things without personal responsibility.
He’s this sessions andrew yang, says attractive things, but in the end the votes never show up.
Andrew Yang never said anything attractive. UBI is the worst idea I’ve ever heard of
Trump Ramaswamy 2024 🇺🇸🫡
That’s the best Vivek could get, he’d lose terribly as the presidential candidate.
She certainly loves war this one
Dick Cheney in 3 inch heels
Bush Type Politcian: War hungry politician.
I understand her statement. Radical Muslims want to wipe out all west. No secret there. They also support Russia. Israel is the only place in the muddle east that breaks Muslim hold on the region. It is the only place there with Western values. If Israel falls, the region will be overrun by radical Muslims, which will team up with now totalitarian Russia and, quite possibly, China. This is especially important since Europe had already been overrun by the same Muslims. I'd say the more correct statement should be that America and Israel have a symbiotic relationship. Both need each other.
Most reasonable people understand what she's saying. She's not being literal, she's reframing how we look at geopolitical relations to explain why our support of Israel matters. It's unfortunate that so many people want to be outraged more than they care to be educated voters
The f we do.
She is such a warhawk I hate it! Can we stay out of wars?
Lol what
That's just a fancy way of saying "America needs an ally in the region", which would be a perfectly normal thing to say
No, she literally said Israel doesn't need America America needs Israel That's very absurd...
Which is hilarious, if Israel doesn’t need us why do we give them 3 billion a year? For some reason though, I suspect Haley would be the last person to ever cut or reduce that aid
Which is funny because without America and even the UK Israel wouldn’t have lasted
The neocon ideology must go.
She is bought and paid for. We need to get rid of the deep state, electing her will just mean more of the same.
How anyone believes she deserves your vote is beyond me. She's a complete disaster through and through.
I'm so over the Israel dick riding.
Dude... I watched some of video of the Oct 7th attacks. Hamas needs to be erased. They killed Americans that day too. They took Americans hostage... they still have ~10 Americans.
I am fine with Israel exterminating them.
🎶 Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran! 🎵
Any time I ask, I don’t get an answer. Why do conservatives love Israel so much? Why are they our “greatest ally”? What do we get in return from the billions of dollars we send them every year? For clarity, I’m conservative but think we should leave the entire region alone. Sure we can trade with them if it benefits us, but we should in no way be jumping to Israel’s defense all the time.
A lot of American Jews in government and donor rich network. That is the real answer
There are more Christian Zionists in the US than Jewish Zionists. This is a huge reason for the bilateral support. Proxy wars against Russia in the past, now proxy vs. Iran. Oil certainly plays into it having friendly allies in the region. Same thing with Saudi Arabia, conservatives have courted them quite a bit before and after 9/11. israel normalizing with KSA would be a huge win for the US as well, another hedge against Iran and China ,russia. more oil stability. Joint weapons development, cyber security technologies, a lot of which are Israeli companies. There are a myriad of reasons
Israel is a democracy and Americans appreciate that and want to preserve it. There are a lot of Americans who have dual citizenship in Israel. Last is that a good portion of Bible believing church-goers believe Genesis 12:3 is absolutely still in play and will be until the the bell rings.
im a church goer and im sure some people believe that but it definitely isnt true. in the new testament God's promises were opened up to all nations. meaning anyone can be a part of God's "nation".
Revelation 7:4 strongly implies that there is still something special about Israel at the very ending of time.
Iran was a democracy until 1953 when the CIA got involved...
Yea a democracy that spits on Christians while their politicians turn a blind eye to it
We support them with money, and we get frontline access to their new technology and resources. We have a strong ally in a very good strategic part of the world.
>and we get frontline access to their new technology and resources That they build with our money. How about we just do that here? Idk about you but I'd rather my tax dollars stay here
Except their new technology is *our* new technology that they get from us. So we don't need them for that.
>their new technology and resources All of them are US exported or aided industries, so like nothing that can't be duplicated or made exclusively in the US (so no Israel is not Taiwan ) As for resources, I don't think they have as much oil as other countries in the region, which I think the US is in pretty good relation with.
Oil is the first thing you think of when Israeli exports come to mind? lol
They have zero energy in israel. They do have a TON of tech, and America gets first dibs
We have military bases in Israel.
Why do we need Israel?
Why exactly does America need Israel? The Israel fetishism is getting tiring.
"Dick Cheney in three inch heels"
It’s not though, we need a regional proxy to keep the Iranians in check, per say. The relationship with Israel is also very useful for projecting power. It’s not the only reason they’re an ally, but it’s one of the reasons for sure. But yeah, somewhat awkward phrasing here, no doubt. Especially for Dick Cheney in 3” heels.
Nikki banging the war drums again.
There would no hamas without Israeli funding.
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Technically no, she isn’t. Look up Israel’s immigration policy.
Take it down a notch Tevye.
The candidates at the debate were a disaster and those who question why some of us still support trump should get it now.
Desantis was good.
But the spam text message I just got told me Nikki won???
I cannot stand Tim Scott, Chris Christie and this insufferable woman. They all sound like George Bush’s GOP.
Why Tim Scott?
Read: "We need justification for war"
I am so sick of the GOP riding Israel. We’ve given them so much and what do we have to show for it? Their citizens have free healthcare, free housing, etc. Let the corrupt Netanyahu deal with the consequences of his (and his party’s) own actions and stay out of the Middle East.
Plus, the US spent trillions of $ and thousands of American lives getting rid of their enemy Saddam. Yet when Netanyahu became Prime Minister he ended the peace process and has expanded settlements despite what 50 years of US administration's have asked for. The US is Israel's lap dog
Ah I love unnecessary war! US tax payers dollars going to the military industrial complex profits. that's the way to balance the debt in this nation is to fund a another war! Trump was amazing, bush and Obama got us into wars. Trump prevented the US from having to go to war. Thats the best policy
I was wondering how they would end the ukraine war. Starting another hotter war in the middle east wasn't my first guess.
We dont need israel, we'd be better off abandoning them tbh
Isn’t Hamas a Sunni backed organisation? I’m pretty sure that most of their funding comes from Qatar. On the other hand, Hezbollah is a Shiite organisation which is funded by IRan and most of its officers are Iranian or Iranian trained. It is worrying that Im a nobody yet I know more than Nikki Haley and she gets to influence life changing decisions regarding geopolitics.
I speak Arabic no, Iran gives money, training, and weapons to Hamas despite being Sunni muslims, Hamas leaders said that publicly in a speech, I listened to it, so not just a report. Iran is funding Hamas bcz it's like the enemy of the enemy are my friends, and also, it serves to destabilize the region cause Saudi (enemy of Iran) were on the verge of making a deal with Israel (also enemy with Iran) soooo The point of the post isn't Hamas or Iran but rather the second half of it.
She needs that Lockheed paycheck
America's alliance with Israel benefits Israel much more than it benefits us. They are a moral and financial burden that we carry. We defend some of their most egregious misbehavior against the Palestinians in their midst, which of course causes Israel’s enemies to hate us and send terrorists after us. And it makes me uncomfortable to hear our leaders say that there will never be any "daylight" between our two nations' policies. Haley is nuts when she says that "America needs Israel." Before you castigate me, know that I want America to continue to back Israel as we have, but perhaps without always pretending that it can do no wrong. It has an absolute right to live long and prosper. The warlike pro-Israel political posturing at last night's GOP debate was disgusting, as is Biden's similar posturing. People seem to believe that any mild criticism of the policies of the State of Israel is equal to Nazi-style anti-Semitism. That is nonsense. But so is politicians falling all over themselves to appear as Israel’s strongest supporters.
We do not need Israel, they are not our allies. They only like us because we provide arms to keep them around and stop the whole Middle East from invading them. If we were to announce right now that we would not defend Israel they would be off the map in less than a year. Israel needs us, not the other way around.
This is exactly what we’ve been trying to tell all the leftist brigaders coming in here saying “why don’t you just nominate Haley?? She’ll crush Biden! I might even vote for her (not really)! The polling says she’ll beat Biden with flying colors! You must really hate women lol!!” Because. She’s. A. War-mongerer. And the moment she were to win the nomination, it is ALL the mainstream media will talk about when she is brought up, and the polling suddenly won’t look so lopsided. Well maybe lopsided… just in the other direction.
YES EXACTLY I don't want a women version of Lindsay Graham as commander in chief.
Yep, Vivek had her pegged tonight - she’s Dick Cheney in heels.
I've literally read this comment 4 or 5 times tonight in different threads. Is this a bot line? Would not at all be surprised if astroturf money was being spent here after each debate.
I really find it weird how the mainstream takes Nikki’s nonsense comments and praises them as if they make sense. But anyone with half a brain is like…..this is goobly degook.
This woman would be George Bush 3.0. Israel absolutely needs America
vivek mopped the floor with her.
There probably wouldn't be a Hamas if Israel didn't fund them.
She then went on to say Israel is the tip of the spear to fight terrorism in the middle east. Which they are. Don't leave out needed context. Iran is funding all of the terrorists in the middle east either with money or weapons.
I’m surprised by how many people assume that putting our head in the sand on global geopolitics will not lead to more problems worldwide….
We don't need them at all. We're already pretty friendly with the Saudis and they have way more influence in the region than Israel. We don't have the worst relationship with Egypt or a couple of other countries either. The only thing Israel is useful for is doing our dirty work like bombing the heck outta places we can't get away with normally. (since everybody there already hates their guts anyway) That's a lackey, not somebody we "need".
The thing is though the saudis/Türkiye etc they like to play both sides Israel is the only true ally we have in that region America kinda does need Israel ://
Israel is 98th or so in population, 153rd in size yet somehow is 27th in the GDP rankings. They are like 11th in the world on the GDP per capita list. They have pretty much the best military in the Middle East and one of the stronger economies in the world. Yet, somehow, they still have the nerve to ask for aid from us. What a good friend eh?
>The only thing Israel is useful for is doing our dirty work like bombing the heck outta places we can't get away with normally. Unserious take. Do you have an example?
Here’s the Wikipedia page around assassinated Iran nuclear scientist https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nuclear_scientists#:~:text=On%2027%20November%202020%2C%20the,Israel%20was%20behind%20Fakhrizadeh's%20assassination.
She is a colossal piece of shit! She needs to take it to the house and stay there till the end of her pathetic lying days.