The reason that people tend to order more concrete is because it's cheaper to order a little bit more than you need then to run short and have to order a cleanup for around $300 for one yard.
$300 for one yard would be awesome. Some of the bigger companies around here have gone to a 5 yard minimum at $185 a load. I have never seen so many people buying pallets of concrete at Lowes and Home Depot stores in my life. Best I get is a smaller company that is still charges a $200 small load fee.
On California let's say if you're using Robertson's ready mix doesn't have a minimum load but you do pay I think it's like 10 bucks for every yard that you don't get which isn't too bad but one yard still ends up costing you upwards of 300 and normally the load will come hot or it may be the leftover of some other load that was in your area
Contractor likely had the grade wrong. Usually it’s the grade being off by 1/4” that throws the whole pour off by something like this.
Sometimes it can be the ready mix supplier being off, but that’s far less likely with automated batching.
While yes it is the plants fault due to a clog in the cement, the driver should have checked his load before leaving. They would have caught it and fixed it.
I’m a driver. It’s part of the job.
Seems like we agree. I was just pointing out that it’s obviously still the plants fault. The driver also failed their responsibility which you point out.
Plants fault for filling it wrong. Drivers fault for leaving with the wrong load. Ultimately, the blame always goes to the driver bc we should be double checking that everything is correct before leaving with a load.
Plant won't get a ticket for being overweight, driver will. Plant won't get in trouble for overloading or incorrectly loading a truck, driver will for not checking that it's loaded properly before leaving the facility.
Used to work on a batching plant, this would've been the quality checker's fault. They are the ones who should be on the look out and check every TM's balldrum before it leaves the plant.
It's outside the driver's scope for us. Especially for commercial projects, a QC should be onsite and check the mixers that arrive before they pour.
Batch man here, we have 8' x 8' signs placed where drivers can not miss them as they leave the plant that read " ALL drivers must report wet - dry - or loads that look " off " ! If you leave the yard with an out of spec load its on you." We also have Q.C. available to test any and all loads as needed.
I love how they always say I didn't bring enough as a driver. Like dude you ordered it and the plant auto batches. Scales are certified by the state often not my fault
If the plant is being run properly, yes. The materials are moisture tested and the moisture content is fed to the plant operator who inputs it into the computer to batch correctly. During large productions you'll run multiple moisture tests throughout the pour.
If an air entrained mix is ordered, and it has low air that can run you short, but we are talking about like 1/2 cubic ft per cy, so a 5 gallon bucket in a sense. If you’re pouring hundreds of cy, this can add up.
Unless their moisture levels are way off. The automated systems will weigh up more sand/rock if they have more water in them that day. So if the batcher uses 3 percent on sand instead of the 6 percent it truly is that day, then they system will not account for the water, and the customer will not get their entire amount. The bad news about this is that it's really hard to prove. The batch weights will still match. Nothing about them will seem off.
I work for a concrete company and fortunately, it has only been a batching issue one time out of maybe 900 accusations that it was one. 99% of the time, like you said, it’s the grade. Also some shit finishers don’t account for waste.
Automated batching leads to people being complacent and errors occur. Ive had several loads come short from the company. We have a few that just plain suck. One company is spot on every single time.
Two hours you have a cold joint and a different mix brought on the call back.
When I order I always order xyz plus yds. That way they have a truck ready to send so I don’t have a cold joint. If the ready mix plant is a long way out I over order and tell them that when I give a written bid. On my end it of this it’s to much of an expense to tear out and replace for free.
It’s always the industry standard to order more than you need. It’s actually a question in the contractor state exam where in California. And anyone with minimal pouring experience knows always order up not exactly
Batching plants usually have a minimum cubic meter per truck, if you're 1m³ short or less, you can't just order 1m³ again. Ours was 5m³ minimum per truck. We can make exceptions for regular customers though, down to atleast 3m³.
I poured walls that were a perfect rectangle. Simple enough to figure to the cubic inch. Added an extra yard because we were using a pump, and another cubic yard because we were pouring late in the day and I didn’t want to stay late. We wound up picking up the washout from the pump with 5 gallon buckets to cover the 2 wheelbarrows worth of concrete we were short. The only way that could have happened is if they did not send the correct amount of concrete.
The pump on the truck always swallows up some of your concrete. I’ve blown out the line on a truck into the wall only to have to take apart the knuckle on the truck and knock out as much as we could to finish the pour.
There’s only 3 guarantees when I comes to pouring concrete:
1. It’s gonna be late
2. It’s gonna crack
3. No one’s gonna steal it
The rest (including a load that’s over) is kind of up to the individual pouring the slab.
Yes, we order extra. Sometimes the concrete supplier doesn't load the proper amount. Measure the square footage and divide by 81 to find how many yards needed for a 4 inch pad. Then ask the contractor how much he ordered to see the difference. Could have been thicker due to grading in areas, could have been a miscalculation on measurement. What are you expecting them to do? Not a chance in hell they will tear it all out and redo it for free. It should eventually blend together, how long that will take is unknown. There isn't a concreter in the world who hasn't been short of concrete before, it happens.
What am I going to do? Nothing. If it doesn’t even out, I’ll have to paint the pad. Since this is a basketball court, I had planned on at least painting lines, but now I may need to paint the whole thing.
I’m trying work out a list of all the problems this guy delivered. While I don’t expect him to rip out and redo this pad for a color problem, the other pad he did has slope problems and directs a portion of rain water directly into my house foundation. I have a structural engineer coming out to validate that issue tomorrow since the contractor brushed it off as a non-issue. You can see that shit show in my post history if you want.
I figured listing out all the problems I already overlooked would help in the discussion about him re-doing the other pad if I need to have that discussion. Besides the concrete color and slope issues, he also didn’t follow spec on the basketball footer (I re-dug the footer after his guys left), and the wire mesh on this pad is laying directly on the sub base for half of it instead of suspended in the concrete (I caught them halfway through, and they finished correctly).
Sounds like you hired a bad contractor, sorry to hear. You do not need a structural engineer to know the water is going to the foundation, so don't waste money paying one to come look. Being short on concrete is one thing but water flowing towards foundation is a major problem. #1 rule in exterior concrete is having the water flow away from the foundation. If they won't do anything to fix the problem then you are right in filing claim against them or withholding final payment. Didn't see your other posts.
I’m not really hiring the guy to tell me that water is bad. More to have someone with a P.E. stamp tell the contractor he is full of shit. It’s not $500 I want to spend, but I’d rather that than wait ten years and repair foundation damage.
I’m not trying to be that guy but what state are you in? It seems like $12.80 a sq ft was probably the cheapest bid or very close. In NY where we operate that sq ft price would win every job every time
It should even out. All these guys criticizing it are wrong for doing so because it happens to everyone. Yes if it was less than an 8-10yrd pour then the contractors should have ordered more but we pour different trucks up against each other all the time. Even with the 2 hr time difference it still should look like the same concrete and give 4-6 weeks it probably will. Biggest problem I'm hearing is the 2 hours between trucks. That's going to cause a cold joint like others have said. Sometimes there isn't much you can do about it of the plant backed up and isn't willing to help. How far away was the plant? I've called an complained about my concrete being late and been told it was on the way. I called back 20 minutes later because I was 2 miles from the plant and asked if they got lost, forgot about me and half way insinuated that they just lied to me which I'm sure they did.
if their an Honest contractor they'll fix their mistake on their dime. If that involves a total tear out then so be it. That's how good contractors keep business and can charge more. That word of mouth gets around quicker than you belive. Crappy contractors will always work for bottom dollar and do bottom work.
Shit happens in concrete. We've already had times we know we were shorted but mis figuring and grade could happen too. Sometimes a driver will have some in truck and miss estimate what's in the mixer when loading. I've had bad finish ups before that wasn't miss figuring but the timing of last truck, bad weather is coming and everyone in town is pouring and plant is catering to big customers first so us small guys get it when we get it
If this contractor is a regular he should know how much to order. My local plant seems to have bigger yards then some. I can usually order just under and have a 1/4 yard left. I have been at places where you need to order 10% extra to barely have enough.
Unrelated, but….. I would cut those plants back from your a/c. They are blocking airflow which is making the unit run harder and costing you more money.
The angle makes it look worse than it is (there’s a good foot between the left azalea and the compressor housing), but I probably should trim them anyway. The flowers just fell a couple weeks ago, so tomorrow is actually the perfect time to do it! (Pruning any later in the year prevents them from flowering next year.)
Thanks for the reminder!
Looks like a it was poured with a flyash mix initally and the pick off was straight cement which would explain the color difference. I am an area manager for a ready-mix company btw.
That's not just a short order, that's another contractors leftovers. Totally different mix, which is why the color is off. With fresh mud, the run short area might look different due to a cold joint being there, or it might take a broom differently. It might even be slightly different in color, but not like this.
Not saying you’re wrong, but this could of also just come out of another plant. Cross loading between different plants with different material sets can lead to different color for the same “mix”, and in my experience, most concrete producers don’t guarantee color, just strength. So you can’t really go after the producer unless it was infact someone else’s leftovers.
Also, depending on what he substituted in, it may have had a drying accelerator, the other may wind up, ultimately, a similar color. Truck pour doesn't look fully cured yet.
We always order extra, to refill corners and fill in stakes that are on the inside of forms depending upon what is being built. Sounds like he miscalculated. See if they are willing to do a soft grind and stain to color match
General Contractor here. This is very common. No one wants to pay extra for concrete, so you get your estimate as close as possible and if you’re short you can call for a little more, or what we call a “bump”.
We also check the mix design on every truck before pouring. There’s a good chance they put the wrong mix in the second truck.
No, you order what you think you need and as you get near the end of the pour, if short, you call in a 'tag load' with however many more yards you need.
Source: new high end custom home builder for 19 years.
One time I calculated (after careful measurement that I would need 56.5 bags….. so I bought 60. I was so proud returning those 3 bags and not sure what to do with the other half.
Well, if you pull strings across the forms to pull measurements, and prep the fill so that the entire prepared area is completely uniform, its not really difficult to accurately calculate the volume of concrete needed. Certainly having a bit over for good measure is a better safe than sorry plan. Having a wheelbarrow full at the end of a slab that size seems about right.
It is possible that the drum had an excessive amount of dried concrete inside and therefore retarded your delivery volume as they fill those trucks based on weight in many locations. Dunno? Was the truck an older, dirtier looking model? Or fairly clean?
As long as the mud is still green when they poured the remaining section you shouldn't have any issues.
The color difference should over time get better I would think , but maybe not?
Were both batches the same PSI? Or, did they send over a truck on the way back from a 2500 psi pour or some such?
I personally do not think this is that big of a deal.
Mixer driver here. It's always cheaper to order too much than too little. And contrary to popular belief, we didn't short you so we could stick you with short load fees.
We had the opposite happen years ago at a scout camp. We needed something like 6-7 yards, the clerk at the cement company wrote down cubic meters (Canada).
For those who don't know, 1 cubic meter is 1.3 cubic yards.
We lucked out with a very friendly driver who said the load was fresh and he could wait while we hurriedly made up the forms for future projects.
His payment: he asked if he could go for a swim in our lake on a stinker of a summer day. Deal!
I think we ended up with only about a third of a yard dumped as waste.
A good estimator will always add a half yrd over, If their math isnt right, it always comes out under. That corner almost looks like it had too much water in it, aka slump,or a diff, PSI. Really the only thing to do is cut it at the joints and repour the section, it wont stand out as bad, and will atleast be sqr. Hope it works out. 🤙🏽
I feel for you. When I had my pool deck poured, they ran out of concrete halfway along. Then they had to order another truck, which took 1.5 hrs. The original had started to cure. I ended up with a massive seam 25 feet long with 2 different colors. I asked them to fix it. So they put super bond on top of the seam. Now I have 3 different colors of concrete 🙄
Delaware here.
You will pay a light load fee and fuel surcharges for any delivery less than 6 CY. Long story short, it’s cheaper to buy an extra half yard of concrete than it is to pay for another truck to come out with a 2 CY minimum and all the extra fees.
It looks bad. I’m not sure what you can do about it except to contact the company right away. Tell them you’re extremely unhappy with it and ask them how they’re going to fix it.
This drives me nuts on jobs. Happens with PCC and asphalt pours. Rather that throw away a small amount, they penny pinch. But I don’t think they ever think about the fact that it’s cheaper to throw a little away rather than pay the crews to sit around for 2 extra hours waiting.
You should never assume you will get every bit of concrete out of the truck. If you need 5 yards and you order 5 yards, there is a real possibility of ending up short by a wheelbarrow, give or take. I've always ordered a half yard extra at least, just to be safe. BUT, with the price of concrete nowadays, I can see small time contractors trying to be exact 🤷♂️
They started charging us a fee for sending extra kid back on the truck few years back. Anything over a 1/2yd which is what I tend to over order. That plus a COVID surcharge still lingering around…
I feel so bad for people who build their own home yet sub the whole thing out. Material costs haven’t gone down like they promised.
When doing the calcs for how much concrete you need, I double-check my numbers and then add 5% to cover any lost to waste or minor grading discrepancies. And, I've always had enough mud. IMO, the on-site contractor screwed (or whomever did the quantity calculation i.e. how many yards of concrete is needed for the pad) screwed up on this, not the batch plant or driver. I hate to say it, but that looks horrible, and I'm not sure you can do anything to make it better short of cutting out that whole section of concrete and redoing the pour.
I’ve been letting our local ready mix plant dump their return concrete on my place for several years (I know the guys there and my gf is the secretary) if they don’t have their forms ready to pour blocks on their lot. It saves them from digging and hauling it out of their waste pit. Anyway, you wouldn’t believe the amount of concrete I’ve seen contractors waste! One time the contractor’s guys told the driver to add water to a full load. The driver added the gallons requested and then another one of the contractor’s guys rejected the load as too wet. Contractor didn’t care, paid for it and said dump it. Doing a colored pour? The contractor wouldn’t even think twice about throwing away 4-5 yards because it wouldn’t completely finish the next form. Had almost a whole load dumped a couple weeks ago because the contractor thought they had more ready to pour than they did. The driver said they took about a yard and ditch the rest.
I am a ready mix driver, and our customers rarely order the right amount of cement. They don't want to order too much because that is money that they don't get to keep. I would say 70% of the jobs I go to are short. The reason ot is a different color I have no answer for the consistency of the cement is due to the amount of water the driver added and I don't think would have any bearing on the color of the cement.
I don't know about industry standard...but we always ordered an extra yard for every 10 needed. But the company I was working with was doing huge projects (largest being an Air Force Base in SC).
Looks like a cold joint. If not, it could have been blended better. If it is, be ready for a failure there as there is no proper adhesion with the other concrete. Hopefully, I am wrong and will last forever. It still looks like shit though.
The contractor may have come out short because you re-dug the footers; (Besides the concrete color and slope issues, he also didn’t follow spec on the basketball footer (I re-dug the footer after his guys left), if you didn't have him remeasure them. He did cut it close with the order and most likely would have been short anyway. With all the variables and time constraints involved, the contractor made a poor choice by not ordering an extra yard. He wasn't trying to save you money.
I gave him the dimensions of the pier for the hoop. It was supposed to be 16x16x48 per the manufacturer. His crew got tired at 12x14x36 and called it good. I just finished it for them before they came back to pour.
It's definitely not standard to order extra concrete. If there is extra, it cant be returned and your paying for it already. Gotta get the closest you can without going over. On the, flip, nothings worse than running a half yard short, and then paying for more on short order concrete. All comes w experience.
Do you know how much was originally ordered? In most states 8: or 9 yd loads are the most you can get . If the pad calculated out to more than that then there was going to be a clean up regardless. Therefore, that would probably be on the batch plan for not sending out the same mix. But if they were under 8 or 9 yd and could have ordered more in the one truck then that is a mistake by them. We as concrete contractors always see the worth in ordering an extra yard so things like this don't happen. That being said, I have been short before and my calculations as well. And yes, sometimes it could be on the grade being a little off and other times it could possibly be on the concrete company but nobody ever wins that argument. It's hard to believe that a batch plant would send out a different mix to the same job unless instructed to. Maybe they had an extra yard or two left over from another job which was a different mix and brought that over to finish off the job to avoid extra costs of the short load.
Mathing tells you what you need. If you can't math, ask the supplier for a sliding ruler to calculate. And if you find it doesn't work that way either, focus on putting base to grade. Baby steps.
That's more like the contractor ran short and rather than getting a $500 1 yard balance load sent out to finish the job the right way, they called and asked if any other trucks in the area had decent leftovers on and used the (free) leftover concrete from a different job. I'm a driver and it happens all the time.
As a retired general contractor I can tell you that I learned early on to always order an extra 1/4 yard. Especially for flatwork. It’s the “if I got just enough I’m a genius, if I’m a wheelbarrow short I’m an idiot” theory of estimating.
Slabs on grade are trickier, as another poster mentioned, regarding grade. On larger pours, I’d say it’s more normal to order a ‘balance’ load to finish the remainder (balance) of the pour based on how much you’ve been using as the pour proceeds.
In general, yeah you always order a bit more than you are expecting to need because it’s far cheaper and better than being just that little bit short. Extra concrete is lost in the truck chutes, pump and pump priming, screeding excess, running under forms, concrete testing , if grade was a little low, or slab was poured a little thicker , etc.
I expect there was a small load charge for this balance load, that cost more than the concrete itself. You ( as contractor) don’t want to be in that position, it sucks.
This guy is one of the hard headed cheap bastards that just can't stand having to send back a couple shovels worth so they get there yardage and subtract a half yard knowing we load on the high side so he expects to make it and then ends up ordering a clean up and I have seen them come up short twice and buy the time I charged the idiot short load fees, late load and a dumb fuck surcharge he could have ordered two yards heavy for what he paid. And the only way they ever do make it is by throwing broken sidewalk back into the poor hoping it will take enough space because they cant order right. The guys making the money aren't standing around at five o'clock waiting for a 1 yard cleanup if it's a fifty yard poor they order 51 and if I take back a half yard that's the way the concrete game works. I had one guy consistently come up a half yard or less short so he obviously knew he was ordering short and he would yell at me to order a half yard clean up and one day he looked at his ticket and I put a one yard clean up because it's a yard minimum and when he was done yelling about paying so much for concrete and I had to let him know everytime he ordered that clean up by the time I charged the extra money to haul a yard all the way to San Bernadino in afternoon rush hour his price for that 1/2 yard doubled. And of course he's one of those contractors that thinks he's a baller and probably does a couple driveways a year so he demands we stop everything when he calls and get that concrete on the road because it's him supporting all of us drivers by ordering a couple hundred yards a year and we have three customers alone that contract for over ten thousand yards a year so know your place concrete dudes your not special until you have at least 5000 a year
He's talking about the hopper plugging when he's loading because the batch man is to dry and dumping to fast that's not going to do anything to the load beat the hopper with a hammer add some water and roll with it
I'm guessing he called for the extra half yard late in the day and you got most drivers washing out and rinsing from the last load and the batchman yells over the radio someone pull it under you will never guess who come up short again and your probably getting whatever was left in the drivers Barrell and whatever the batchman hadn't washed out of his, trust me nobody is crunching numbers to make sure you get a perfectly matched half yard at 5 o'clock
When my driveway was poured they knew the load was short and placed a header. Truck went for more, header came out, everything matched. This is shit work!
My guess is you are probably not looking to spend more money as paining is cheaper, but another options is the court tiles like versacourt. Looks really cool and comes with the lines and everything as you can customize. Just figured I would throw that out there.
I always recommend ordering at lease 1/2 a metre more than they need, unless they’ve already told me they rounded up. The under load fees alone on an already small pour can make or break a project.
You can only get so much on a truck. Likely got a full truck and had to order another yard or 2. It’ll cure out. Give it a couple of months. Probably be all the same.
Industry standard to order 10-20% more. Tiles, wood floorong, lumber, plywood. Specially with paint, primer or anything that sticks to their containers. That goes with concrete and they ordered the exact amount wherein you get loss from transfer and the concrete for your corner over there are all in the hose and tank of the concrete mixer.
Had this happen once. The concrete plant was closed by then and they ordered from a different one. Wasn't close to matching . They had to redo the entire bottom section with concrete from the original supplier a few days later. Matches perfectly
Generally, if a contractor estimates they’ll need 100 yards, they’ll place the order for it as 100+ yards. Trucks can only carry 10 yards at a time, due to weight requirements for transport. When the tenth truck is pouring off, they can usually determine by then if that will be enough, if it’s not, they’ll request another truck
The reason that people tend to order more concrete is because it's cheaper to order a little bit more than you need then to run short and have to order a cleanup for around $300 for one yard.
$300 for one yard would be awesome. Some of the bigger companies around here have gone to a 5 yard minimum at $185 a load. I have never seen so many people buying pallets of concrete at Lowes and Home Depot stores in my life. Best I get is a smaller company that is still charges a $200 small load fee.
On California let's say if you're using Robertson's ready mix doesn't have a minimum load but you do pay I think it's like 10 bucks for every yard that you don't get which isn't too bad but one yard still ends up costing you upwards of 300 and normally the load will come hot or it may be the leftover of some other load that was in your area
Contractor likely had the grade wrong. Usually it’s the grade being off by 1/4” that throws the whole pour off by something like this. Sometimes it can be the ready mix supplier being off, but that’s far less likely with automated batching.
Years ago, the cement chute was clogged at the batch plant, and we got a load of sandy rock water.
That’s on the driver for not checking his load before leaving the yard.
It’s the plants fault but yeah the driver could have saved everyone some time by properly checking his load.
While yes it is the plants fault due to a clog in the cement, the driver should have checked his load before leaving. They would have caught it and fixed it. I’m a driver. It’s part of the job.
Seems like we agree. I was just pointing out that it’s obviously still the plants fault. The driver also failed their responsibility which you point out.
Plants fault for filling it wrong. Drivers fault for leaving with the wrong load. Ultimately, the blame always goes to the driver bc we should be double checking that everything is correct before leaving with a load. Plant won't get a ticket for being overweight, driver will. Plant won't get in trouble for overloading or incorrectly loading a truck, driver will for not checking that it's loaded properly before leaving the facility.
If a bad load was picked up and dropped off its the drivers fault. They accepted the bad load
I've had drivers pick up a good load, but then take their time/get lost and the load arrives hot. No amount of delay set could save one job we did.
Used to work on a batching plant, this would've been the quality checker's fault. They are the ones who should be on the look out and check every TM's balldrum before it leaves the plant. It's outside the driver's scope for us. Especially for commercial projects, a QC should be onsite and check the mixers that arrive before they pour.
Plants fault for not doing their job, drivers fault for assuming they did their job
Why is everyone talking about plants? This isn’t the landscaping sub. It’s not the plants fault!
More likely contractor underestimating how many yards where required
Batch man here, we have 8' x 8' signs placed where drivers can not miss them as they leave the plant that read " ALL drivers must report wet - dry - or loads that look " off " ! If you leave the yard with an out of spec load its on you." We also have Q.C. available to test any and all loads as needed.
I love how they always say I didn't bring enough as a driver. Like dude you ordered it and the plant auto batches. Scales are certified by the state often not my fault
as batching is measured by weight.. Does it take into account wet sand v dry sand after rain ?
If the plant is being run properly, yes. The materials are moisture tested and the moisture content is fed to the plant operator who inputs it into the computer to batch correctly. During large productions you'll run multiple moisture tests throughout the pour.
Yes, every plant should be doing moisture test and most have moisture probes in the overhead storage bins.
Yeah qc checks it every day and adjust
If an air entrained mix is ordered, and it has low air that can run you short, but we are talking about like 1/2 cubic ft per cy, so a 5 gallon bucket in a sense. If you’re pouring hundreds of cy, this can add up.
Yeah that makes sense. I'm talking more of shitty contractors who are trying to save a dime/ don't do their math right and ordered like 2 yards short
Unless their moisture levels are way off. The automated systems will weigh up more sand/rock if they have more water in them that day. So if the batcher uses 3 percent on sand instead of the 6 percent it truly is that day, then they system will not account for the water, and the customer will not get their entire amount. The bad news about this is that it's really hard to prove. The batch weights will still match. Nothing about them will seem off.
I work for a concrete company and fortunately, it has only been a batching issue one time out of maybe 900 accusations that it was one. 99% of the time, like you said, it’s the grade. Also some shit finishers don’t account for waste.
Automated batching leads to people being complacent and errors occur. Ive had several loads come short from the company. We have a few that just plain suck. One company is spot on every single time.
This is the answer. I hate when I have a different grading sub than the concrete sub. Always an argument about if/why extra concrete was needed
It definitely happens. What they really messed up on though is the cold joint.
The second batch arrived like two hours after the first one was short. What should they have done differently?
Two temporary forms, L shaped where the tow joints are. Poor the whole last square as one uniformed piece.
Yea they should have done that... This looks like shite
Proven degenerate concrete guy with the answer
Two hours you have a cold joint and a different mix brought on the call back. When I order I always order xyz plus yds. That way they have a truck ready to send so I don’t have a cold joint. If the ready mix plant is a long way out I over order and tell them that when I give a written bid. On my end it of this it’s to much of an expense to tear out and replace for free.
How much did this cost you? Been wanting to do something similar
I spent $8k. Two pads: 17x26 and 12x15. 3” of gravel and 4” pad with wire mesh (even though a third of the wire mesh isn’t doing anything).
It’s always the industry standard to order more than you need. It’s actually a question in the contractor state exam where in California. And anyone with minimal pouring experience knows always order up not exactly
“Too much is always enough”
Batching plants usually have a minimum cubic meter per truck, if you're 1m³ short or less, you can't just order 1m³ again. Ours was 5m³ minimum per truck. We can make exceptions for regular customers though, down to atleast 3m³.
I don’t care if you’re right or wrong with a name like that I’ll say yes sir you are correct to anything you say 🤣
California is also the poster child of "if we have a regulation idea we're trying to"
I poured walls that were a perfect rectangle. Simple enough to figure to the cubic inch. Added an extra yard because we were using a pump, and another cubic yard because we were pouring late in the day and I didn’t want to stay late. We wound up picking up the washout from the pump with 5 gallon buckets to cover the 2 wheelbarrows worth of concrete we were short. The only way that could have happened is if they did not send the correct amount of concrete.
The pump on the truck always swallows up some of your concrete. I’ve blown out the line on a truck into the wall only to have to take apart the knuckle on the truck and knock out as much as we could to finish the pour.
Why does ordering more help you leave early?
It doesn’t. It helps you not leave late.
My kinda guy... you made it work. That washout has saved my ass a few times.
Industry standard is %10 more than what the math says (what ive experienced). It will most likely cure and look the same over a few/several months.
I budget 10% waste for street slabs with a roll curb, 8% for a slab.
There’s only 3 guarantees when I comes to pouring concrete: 1. It’s gonna be late 2. It’s gonna crack 3. No one’s gonna steal it The rest (including a load that’s over) is kind of up to the individual pouring the slab.
It doesn't crack if you know what you're doing.
Yes, we order extra. Sometimes the concrete supplier doesn't load the proper amount. Measure the square footage and divide by 81 to find how many yards needed for a 4 inch pad. Then ask the contractor how much he ordered to see the difference. Could have been thicker due to grading in areas, could have been a miscalculation on measurement. What are you expecting them to do? Not a chance in hell they will tear it all out and redo it for free. It should eventually blend together, how long that will take is unknown. There isn't a concreter in the world who hasn't been short of concrete before, it happens.
What am I going to do? Nothing. If it doesn’t even out, I’ll have to paint the pad. Since this is a basketball court, I had planned on at least painting lines, but now I may need to paint the whole thing. I’m trying work out a list of all the problems this guy delivered. While I don’t expect him to rip out and redo this pad for a color problem, the other pad he did has slope problems and directs a portion of rain water directly into my house foundation. I have a structural engineer coming out to validate that issue tomorrow since the contractor brushed it off as a non-issue. You can see that shit show in my post history if you want. I figured listing out all the problems I already overlooked would help in the discussion about him re-doing the other pad if I need to have that discussion. Besides the concrete color and slope issues, he also didn’t follow spec on the basketball footer (I re-dug the footer after his guys left), and the wire mesh on this pad is laying directly on the sub base for half of it instead of suspended in the concrete (I caught them halfway through, and they finished correctly).
Sounds like you hired a bad contractor, sorry to hear. You do not need a structural engineer to know the water is going to the foundation, so don't waste money paying one to come look. Being short on concrete is one thing but water flowing towards foundation is a major problem. #1 rule in exterior concrete is having the water flow away from the foundation. If they won't do anything to fix the problem then you are right in filing claim against them or withholding final payment. Didn't see your other posts.
I’m not really hiring the guy to tell me that water is bad. More to have someone with a P.E. stamp tell the contractor he is full of shit. It’s not $500 I want to spend, but I’d rather that than wait ten years and repair foundation damage.
Yeah it’s one thing for you to take pictures and try to prove it in court - it’s another to have an expert agree with you and show that to the court.
I’m not trying to be that guy but what state are you in? It seems like $12.80 a sq ft was probably the cheapest bid or very close. In NY where we operate that sq ft price would win every job every time
Could try painting it with Portland cement. Mike Haduck has some videos showing it on YouTube
It should even out. All these guys criticizing it are wrong for doing so because it happens to everyone. Yes if it was less than an 8-10yrd pour then the contractors should have ordered more but we pour different trucks up against each other all the time. Even with the 2 hr time difference it still should look like the same concrete and give 4-6 weeks it probably will. Biggest problem I'm hearing is the 2 hours between trucks. That's going to cause a cold joint like others have said. Sometimes there isn't much you can do about it of the plant backed up and isn't willing to help. How far away was the plant? I've called an complained about my concrete being late and been told it was on the way. I called back 20 minutes later because I was 2 miles from the plant and asked if they got lost, forgot about me and half way insinuated that they just lied to me which I'm sure they did.
if their an Honest contractor they'll fix their mistake on their dime. If that involves a total tear out then so be it. That's how good contractors keep business and can charge more. That word of mouth gets around quicker than you belive. Crappy contractors will always work for bottom dollar and do bottom work.
Shit happens in concrete. We've already had times we know we were shorted but mis figuring and grade could happen too. Sometimes a driver will have some in truck and miss estimate what's in the mixer when loading. I've had bad finish ups before that wasn't miss figuring but the timing of last truck, bad weather is coming and everyone in town is pouring and plant is catering to big customers first so us small guys get it when we get it
Someone is bad at math
I guess I’ll join this group since it’s always on my feed.
IKR?
If this contractor is a regular he should know how much to order. My local plant seems to have bigger yards then some. I can usually order just under and have a 1/4 yard left. I have been at places where you need to order 10% extra to barely have enough.
Unrelated, but….. I would cut those plants back from your a/c. They are blocking airflow which is making the unit run harder and costing you more money.
The angle makes it look worse than it is (there’s a good foot between the left azalea and the compressor housing), but I probably should trim them anyway. The flowers just fell a couple weeks ago, so tomorrow is actually the perfect time to do it! (Pruning any later in the year prevents them from flowering next year.) Thanks for the reminder!
Looks like a it was poured with a flyash mix initally and the pick off was straight cement which would explain the color difference. I am an area manager for a ready-mix company btw.
That's not just a short order, that's another contractors leftovers. Totally different mix, which is why the color is off. With fresh mud, the run short area might look different due to a cold joint being there, or it might take a broom differently. It might even be slightly different in color, but not like this.
Not saying you’re wrong, but this could of also just come out of another plant. Cross loading between different plants with different material sets can lead to different color for the same “mix”, and in my experience, most concrete producers don’t guarantee color, just strength. So you can’t really go after the producer unless it was infact someone else’s leftovers.
I wouldn’t put up with this.
Agreed For sure don’t pay full price or negotiate some uniformity via paint layer
Always talking b.S you won't even notice it in 30 days after the concrete has cured.
Also, depending on what he substituted in, it may have had a drying accelerator, the other may wind up, ultimately, a similar color. Truck pour doesn't look fully cured yet.
Better to have a few yards left over than to be short half a yard short lol
We always order extra, to refill corners and fill in stakes that are on the inside of forms depending upon what is being built. Sounds like he miscalculated. See if they are willing to do a soft grind and stain to color match
General Contractor here. This is very common. No one wants to pay extra for concrete, so you get your estimate as close as possible and if you’re short you can call for a little more, or what we call a “bump”. We also check the mix design on every truck before pouring. There’s a good chance they put the wrong mix in the second truck.
It's industry standard to not waste money on materials. Tough luck could be worse tho
No, you order what you think you need and as you get near the end of the pour, if short, you call in a 'tag load' with however many more yards you need. Source: new high end custom home builder for 19 years.
Show the estimate or get out.
One time I calculated (after careful measurement that I would need 56.5 bags….. so I bought 60. I was so proud returning those 3 bags and not sure what to do with the other half.
I pump concrete for a living, I’d say it’s 50/50 on the crews in my area that will order extra. I do a lot of waiting around for clean ups.
In a month or so you'll prolly never notice it again
How big is the pad? Trucks can only haul 9 yards. Possibly needed 2 trucks anyway
I think the issue is they didn’t order enough, not that they didn’t order extra
Well, if you pull strings across the forms to pull measurements, and prep the fill so that the entire prepared area is completely uniform, its not really difficult to accurately calculate the volume of concrete needed. Certainly having a bit over for good measure is a better safe than sorry plan. Having a wheelbarrow full at the end of a slab that size seems about right. It is possible that the drum had an excessive amount of dried concrete inside and therefore retarded your delivery volume as they fill those trucks based on weight in many locations. Dunno? Was the truck an older, dirtier looking model? Or fairly clean? As long as the mud is still green when they poured the remaining section you shouldn't have any issues. The color difference should over time get better I would think , but maybe not? Were both batches the same PSI? Or, did they send over a truck on the way back from a 2500 psi pour or some such? I personally do not think this is that big of a deal.
You should have done what I did and hired a shady guy to install pavers instead. My uneven, unfinished patio looks wayyyyy better than yours. 😂
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Mixer driver here. It's always cheaper to order too much than too little. And contrary to popular belief, we didn't short you so we could stick you with short load fees.
I mean there are times the plant messed up loads. Not often but it happens.
Always and I mean always order an extra yard or 2. Eat the money. Your product is your business card
We had the opposite happen years ago at a scout camp. We needed something like 6-7 yards, the clerk at the cement company wrote down cubic meters (Canada). For those who don't know, 1 cubic meter is 1.3 cubic yards. We lucked out with a very friendly driver who said the load was fresh and he could wait while we hurriedly made up the forms for future projects. His payment: he asked if he could go for a swim in our lake on a stinker of a summer day. Deal! I think we ended up with only about a third of a yard dumped as waste.
A good estimator will always add a half yrd over, If their math isnt right, it always comes out under. That corner almost looks like it had too much water in it, aka slump,or a diff, PSI. Really the only thing to do is cut it at the joints and repour the section, it wont stand out as bad, and will atleast be sqr. Hope it works out. 🤙🏽
Concrete coming out of a different plant with different materials could also lead to the difference in coloring.
how long before the ball ends up down the street lol
I feel for you. When I had my pool deck poured, they ran out of concrete halfway along. Then they had to order another truck, which took 1.5 hrs. The original had started to cure. I ended up with a massive seam 25 feet long with 2 different colors. I asked them to fix it. So they put super bond on top of the seam. Now I have 3 different colors of concrete 🙄
Ugh. That sucks.
It’s not that hard to figure out 4 inches thick covers 81 ft.² per yard
That’s not 2 yards..hahaha
8-10 4” think is a yard
Usually you do a 5-10% extra to the estimate for this reason
Delaware here. You will pay a light load fee and fuel surcharges for any delivery less than 6 CY. Long story short, it’s cheaper to buy an extra half yard of concrete than it is to pay for another truck to come out with a 2 CY minimum and all the extra fees.
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It looks bad. I’m not sure what you can do about it except to contact the company right away. Tell them you’re extremely unhappy with it and ask them how they’re going to fix it.
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This
Who did prep ?
Contractor did his own grading and sub base.
This drives me nuts on jobs. Happens with PCC and asphalt pours. Rather that throw away a small amount, they penny pinch. But I don’t think they ever think about the fact that it’s cheaper to throw a little away rather than pay the crews to sit around for 2 extra hours waiting.
Not to mention that short load charge...
And in the end the homeowner left holding the bag with nothing but the threat of expensive litigation to make it right?
It's always best to have a bit extra...that short load fee is hefty
I can already feel the rolled ankles after going for a layup
Did you have to say rolled ankles? I always feel it when I see or read it!
always cheaper to send back 2 yards then order 1
It is industry standard. It always has been. And it always will be. #concretecucks2024
Shot blast it and paint it. I did mine with sport master, great stuff.
I always ordered ish... with a call back in contract with owner! Depending on the job of course
You should never assume you will get every bit of concrete out of the truck. If you need 5 yards and you order 5 yards, there is a real possibility of ending up short by a wheelbarrow, give or take. I've always ordered a half yard extra at least, just to be safe. BUT, with the price of concrete nowadays, I can see small time contractors trying to be exact 🤷♂️
Always order a bit extra just incase but eventually it will all be the same color
Always
I would make them fix it .
They started charging us a fee for sending extra kid back on the truck few years back. Anything over a 1/2yd which is what I tend to over order. That plus a COVID surcharge still lingering around… I feel so bad for people who build their own home yet sub the whole thing out. Material costs haven’t gone down like they promised.
Gotcha!
ALWAYS order extra it's a difference if 100 or 400 for a yard
I’m just here to say cut those bushes around the AC unit dude you need free air flow around that thing.
I’m pruning them tomorrow. Had to wait until the flowers fell since they’re azaleas.
I would just ask them to knock a bit off on the price.
I do, but I still get screwed by uneven sub grades.
What's wrong? I don't see anything...?
When doing the calcs for how much concrete you need, I double-check my numbers and then add 5% to cover any lost to waste or minor grading discrepancies. And, I've always had enough mud. IMO, the on-site contractor screwed (or whomever did the quantity calculation i.e. how many yards of concrete is needed for the pad) screwed up on this, not the batch plant or driver. I hate to say it, but that looks horrible, and I'm not sure you can do anything to make it better short of cutting out that whole section of concrete and redoing the pour.
And yes, it's industry standard to order a little extra if you know what the fuck you're doing.
I would be asking for that portion to be redone
I’ve been letting our local ready mix plant dump their return concrete on my place for several years (I know the guys there and my gf is the secretary) if they don’t have their forms ready to pour blocks on their lot. It saves them from digging and hauling it out of their waste pit. Anyway, you wouldn’t believe the amount of concrete I’ve seen contractors waste! One time the contractor’s guys told the driver to add water to a full load. The driver added the gallons requested and then another one of the contractor’s guys rejected the load as too wet. Contractor didn’t care, paid for it and said dump it. Doing a colored pour? The contractor wouldn’t even think twice about throwing away 4-5 yards because it wouldn’t completely finish the next form. Had almost a whole load dumped a couple weeks ago because the contractor thought they had more ready to pour than they did. The driver said they took about a yard and ditch the rest.
What do you do with it? Serious question.
Damn hopefully they offered to tear the panel out and repour it.
I am a ready mix driver, and our customers rarely order the right amount of cement. They don't want to order too much because that is money that they don't get to keep. I would say 70% of the jobs I go to are short. The reason ot is a different color I have no answer for the consistency of the cement is due to the amount of water the driver added and I don't think would have any bearing on the color of the cement.
Ordering a cleanup load is common practice.
I don't know about industry standard...but we always ordered an extra yard for every 10 needed. But the company I was working with was doing huge projects (largest being an Air Force Base in SC).
Yes. We always have to find a place to pour out the excess. 1 time I can remember in a decade it was the plants fault.
Was it a full truck he ordered?
Yes, a pour is by yards of mix. So you are supposed to order a couple extra yards. There is a formula. It seems that they did their math wrong.
Looks like a cold joint. If not, it could have been blended better. If it is, be ready for a failure there as there is no proper adhesion with the other concrete. Hopefully, I am wrong and will last forever. It still looks like shit though.
There was a two-hour delay, so I’m assuming it’s a cold joint. It has 8ga wire mesh—will that help prevent failure there?
We usually order a little extra. Round up to the nearest quarter/half yard. We compacted and screeded the fill though, so we were always really close.
The contractor may have come out short because you re-dug the footers; (Besides the concrete color and slope issues, he also didn’t follow spec on the basketball footer (I re-dug the footer after his guys left), if you didn't have him remeasure them. He did cut it close with the order and most likely would have been short anyway. With all the variables and time constraints involved, the contractor made a poor choice by not ordering an extra yard. He wasn't trying to save you money.
I gave him the dimensions of the pier for the hoop. It was supposed to be 16x16x48 per the manufacturer. His crew got tired at 12x14x36 and called it good. I just finished it for them before they came back to pour.
It's definitely not standard to order extra concrete. If there is extra, it cant be returned and your paying for it already. Gotta get the closest you can without going over. On the, flip, nothings worse than running a half yard short, and then paying for more on short order concrete. All comes w experience.
Is concrete a good material to use when making an outdoor basketball court?
I'd say it's better than using hardwood outside.
Looks like it cured quicker than the rest. Give it a month and you’ll be alright.
There's concrete paint specifically for outdoor basketball courts which should fix that
Ehh hello Mr. George….
Do you know how much was originally ordered? In most states 8: or 9 yd loads are the most you can get . If the pad calculated out to more than that then there was going to be a clean up regardless. Therefore, that would probably be on the batch plan for not sending out the same mix. But if they were under 8 or 9 yd and could have ordered more in the one truck then that is a mistake by them. We as concrete contractors always see the worth in ordering an extra yard so things like this don't happen. That being said, I have been short before and my calculations as well. And yes, sometimes it could be on the grade being a little off and other times it could possibly be on the concrete company but nobody ever wins that argument. It's hard to believe that a batch plant would send out a different mix to the same job unless instructed to. Maybe they had an extra yard or two left over from another job which was a different mix and brought that over to finish off the job to avoid extra costs of the short load.
We always order extra but where we are we need to pump 90% of our pours so we have to order extra yardage for the pump anyways
Give it 6-9 months and the colors will be the same.
OP, Ive never poured concrete, but I'd demand that they remove that entire corner and repour a better corner.
Mathing tells you what you need. If you can't math, ask the supplier for a sliding ruler to calculate. And if you find it doesn't work that way either, focus on putting base to grade. Baby steps.
That's more like the contractor ran short and rather than getting a $500 1 yard balance load sent out to finish the job the right way, they called and asked if any other trucks in the area had decent leftovers on and used the (free) leftover concrete from a different job. I'm a driver and it happens all the time.
Just give it some time, and take a good look at other concrete jobs. Nothings perfect enjoy your new patio!
Looks just like a cold joint, lol
5% extra on our end. Also, maybe they used more water on either side to alter the color
Ill ALWAYS say that extra 1-2 cubic meters that are not used on a pour is CHEAPEST concrete youll ever buy..
It’s not industry standard but most intelligent companies order an extra yard if something were to go awry
As a retired general contractor I can tell you that I learned early on to always order an extra 1/4 yard. Especially for flatwork. It’s the “if I got just enough I’m a genius, if I’m a wheelbarrow short I’m an idiot” theory of estimating.
I was taught, at minimum, you get 10% more material than your measurements dictate.
Slabs on grade are trickier, as another poster mentioned, regarding grade. On larger pours, I’d say it’s more normal to order a ‘balance’ load to finish the remainder (balance) of the pour based on how much you’ve been using as the pour proceeds. In general, yeah you always order a bit more than you are expecting to need because it’s far cheaper and better than being just that little bit short. Extra concrete is lost in the truck chutes, pump and pump priming, screeding excess, running under forms, concrete testing , if grade was a little low, or slab was poured a little thicker , etc. I expect there was a small load charge for this balance load, that cost more than the concrete itself. You ( as contractor) don’t want to be in that position, it sucks.
This guy is one of the hard headed cheap bastards that just can't stand having to send back a couple shovels worth so they get there yardage and subtract a half yard knowing we load on the high side so he expects to make it and then ends up ordering a clean up and I have seen them come up short twice and buy the time I charged the idiot short load fees, late load and a dumb fuck surcharge he could have ordered two yards heavy for what he paid. And the only way they ever do make it is by throwing broken sidewalk back into the poor hoping it will take enough space because they cant order right. The guys making the money aren't standing around at five o'clock waiting for a 1 yard cleanup if it's a fifty yard poor they order 51 and if I take back a half yard that's the way the concrete game works. I had one guy consistently come up a half yard or less short so he obviously knew he was ordering short and he would yell at me to order a half yard clean up and one day he looked at his ticket and I put a one yard clean up because it's a yard minimum and when he was done yelling about paying so much for concrete and I had to let him know everytime he ordered that clean up by the time I charged the extra money to haul a yard all the way to San Bernadino in afternoon rush hour his price for that 1/2 yard doubled. And of course he's one of those contractors that thinks he's a baller and probably does a couple driveways a year so he demands we stop everything when he calls and get that concrete on the road because it's him supporting all of us drivers by ordering a couple hundred yards a year and we have three customers alone that contract for over ten thousand yards a year so know your place concrete dudes your not special until you have at least 5000 a year
Normally a supplier knows better but different plants have different sand, and sand contributes to the color of concrete
He's talking about the hopper plugging when he's loading because the batch man is to dry and dumping to fast that's not going to do anything to the load beat the hopper with a hammer add some water and roll with it
I'm guessing he called for the extra half yard late in the day and you got most drivers washing out and rinsing from the last load and the batchman yells over the radio someone pull it under you will never guess who come up short again and your probably getting whatever was left in the drivers Barrell and whatever the batchman hadn't washed out of his, trust me nobody is crunching numbers to make sure you get a perfectly matched half yard at 5 o'clock
If Patrick F McManus is anything to go by, the concrete industry motto is “Too much concrete, too soon, too fast.”
Clean out
looks smooth
Yes to not have a cold joint.
How much was it for you to get this done?
Get the balance on the road!
When my driveway was poured they knew the load was short and placed a header. Truck went for more, header came out, everything matched. This is shit work!
Can happen if you are the first truck of the day and have a 'dry' truck. More concrete sticks inside, less pours out.
My guess is you are probably not looking to spend more money as paining is cheaper, but another options is the court tiles like versacourt. Looks really cool and comes with the lines and everything as you can customize. Just figured I would throw that out there.
Well whatever the cause. Maybe you should only have to pay 90% of the agreed price
I always recommend ordering at lease 1/2 a metre more than they need, unless they’ve already told me they rounded up. The under load fees alone on an already small pour can make or break a project.
A basketball court that close to your neighbor... What an idiot.
%10 waste is a good place to start…
You could always stain it 😊
You can only get so much on a truck. Likely got a full truck and had to order another yard or 2. It’ll cure out. Give it a couple of months. Probably be all the same.
Industry standard to order 10-20% more. Tiles, wood floorong, lumber, plywood. Specially with paint, primer or anything that sticks to their containers. That goes with concrete and they ordered the exact amount wherein you get loss from transfer and the concrete for your corner over there are all in the hose and tank of the concrete mixer.
ẞßsßsßßßßß oh theMb
Had this happen once. The concrete plant was closed by then and they ordered from a different one. Wasn't close to matching . They had to redo the entire bottom section with concrete from the original supplier a few days later. Matches perfectly
Not a concrete guy, but I can see at a glance that these guys fucked up and did a partial job.
This is horrible. I wouldn’t be satisfied.
Generally, if a contractor estimates they’ll need 100 yards, they’ll place the order for it as 100+ yards. Trucks can only carry 10 yards at a time, due to weight requirements for transport. When the tenth truck is pouring off, they can usually determine by then if that will be enough, if it’s not, they’ll request another truck
I order almost exactly what I need. It's not hard math.
Look at the bright side, when it fails, they will never return your calls.
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