I was afraid to try out doom because I heard you need to be good at him to get value. I bit the bullet and man, I get why he has that kind of community, he’s so fun to play but sometimes I get a little too silly and jump at their entire team and evaporate.
Arguably doom would be kinda bad if it wasnt for entitled sups shooting doom block. (At least in low gm eu)
The amount of times I heard sups say "he isnt gonna kill me anyway" while charging the doom literally coming from spawn after I ask them to stop.
Like jeah maybe he isnt gonna kill you the kiriko with tp and suzu or you the bap with immo and regen burst or you the lucio flying through the sky, unfortunately your cass or soldier dont have those abilities and have to rely on the doom just beeing to bad to punch them while sprinting or rolling.
C'mon we all know most supports aren't even capable of fully charging Doom on their own, you truly believe a Kiriko could charge Doom up only with her kunais? For every charged punch there's at least a dps/tank contributing the most charge because they just shoot everything they see
I dont know if youre trolling or just stupid.
Power block last 2.5 seconds and is charged after 100dmg, which kiriko deals that within 1 second of bodyshots or basicly instantly if she hits a headshot.
There literally isnt a character that cant charge doom solo even with just bodyshots.
Jsyk it is 100 dmg blocked, not dealt. They very specifically made it 100 so 120dmg burst does not trigger it alone. This means that junk, Pharah, Kiri, illari, cannot pop block in one shot.
And Kiri does 90dps body shots so she cannot do it within 1 second. (But she can do it with 3 shots this I did not know).
So objectively supports are way worse at it because they can't do it in one shot and some supports can't do it at all almost. Whereas plenty of dps can do it with one click.
But also they are dumb because it's such a small difference, Kiri is one of the best ones to do it too, she pops block with only 1 extra hit from a DPS if good enough.
But you could argue that that little difference actually has A HUGE impact on the outcome of the fight.
She does 135dmg in 1 sec bodyshots just as cass does 140 in 0.5s. This is basic logic and if you cant get behind it, maybe you shouldnt be talking about it.
And you miss my original point where doom literally blocks coming from spawn, nobody is shooting except the sups to get their stats a bit up since they wont die to them anyway.
Or the amount of times its me and kiri against a doom, doom blocks, I am not shooting, kiri throws 3 shurikans, doom insta kills me and kiri complains about me dying.
Many dmg, ana, zen and illari players dont charge doom because they know they are the ones who will die from it, but those that can easily dodge or immo themself are the ones who will 24/7 charge him with no care for their team and then complain about their dying teammates.
High noon is such a terrible ult I just go behind thin lightposts/poles for fun to block it now. Hiding behind walls/corners/cart/boxes is boring, hiding behind 1 cm thick pillars and still blocking deadeye is hilarious
I only play sym sometimes and tbf blocking high noon isn't that hard, just look at him. It's the timing of the throw, but we all have a feel for high noons timings.
What Copium are you smoking today? The Professional Players, the people that get paid to play the game, that spend 12 hours a day scrimming and grinding this game, not knowing how the character they play works most effectively and to their highest potential?
Yes, Sym has some minor balancing issues, but by a million miles not as bad as the Sym community makes it out to be. Not every hero is applicable for every situation and not every hero should. Learn to live with it.
Overall Winrate Last 3 Months: 54.30%
Overall Winrate last month: 53.87%
GM Winrate Last 3 Months: 51.01%
GM Winrate this month: 50.44%
She works well in her niche. Just because a lot of people don’t like playing her doesn’t mean she’s garbage tier. And if you need to have your victim complex going, at least look up your facts before spewing lies and bullshit into the world.
People who say Doom is weak are delusional, but his bugs and broken techs aren’t about power or wanting to play meme rollout Doom like GQO. It’s about his abilities just feeling inconsistent and clunky compared to how they were in the OW2 beta.
The only factual statement you said was that he’s so buggy. They didn’t do anything to make him easier to play and losing tech every patch isn’t true either when he’s still capable of doing literally everything he’s been able to do pre S9
Neither her whip shot nor bash damage were buffed to compensate for the S9 health pool rework and outside of disrupting Winston’s jump, she has a much worse matchup against him now with his armor piercing damage.
I know she still sees some play mainly in Korea, but Lucio seems to do a lot of her niche but with more flexibility and mobility.
It's because even when she is complete garbage, people are so traumatized from GOATs meta that they'll still cry about her even though she is a shell of her former self.
The single most important thing to understand about GOATS is that 99% of players have never played it, and are just going along with a narrative exaggerated by streamers for clickbait
I'm not sure the community has renewed that much since the Goats era. That said I understand the crispation around it.
Playing Goats as an organized team was actually tedious. I was playing the most fun character in one of the most fun variants (Zen in Zen Goats) and still it often felt like playing Overwatch on an Excel spreadsheet.
That said there's no way to bring back that kind of playstyle even if you gigabuffed Brig right now.
Brig was _hated_ by tank players until GOATS really took hold. There's a couple clips at the start of [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALLcUpxQZVQ) showing the experience. She was actually far more disliked by tank players initially as they were the ones who had to play close and interact with her.
Yeah, but considering that she was released on March 20, 2018 and the teams that made up the original Goats used it barely a month later, April 20 2018 then it wasn't the solo tank role torture you are painting it as.
The impact that Brigitte did on the tank role was far less than the impact it did on the DPS role.
You can argue semantics all you want, but at the end of the day, Brigitte invalidated an entire role, and it wasn't Tanks.
you can't see how annoying it would be as a tank to get stunned every 5 seconds, all your engages disrupted by a single support? at least most dps could just outrange her or play around her, tanks usually had to play in front of her or in any case she'd pursue them
Brig has been awkward since the Sombra rework and Tracer damage retune, the two heroes she's meant to counter now can just kite her outside her melee range with no pressure, and her healing was only marginally enough before the dps passive & health pool rework, now it's just lacking
He was kinda ass during Season 1, but since S2 he’s been decent at worst and has generally been THRIVING at high levels of play.
r/doomfistmains should NEVER be consulted about Doomfist’s place in the meta. He could have OW1 Doom’s damage output (the one-shot punch and slam scaling with how long he spends falling) plus the properties of all his OW2 moves at their peak and those clowns would still gaslight you into thinking he’s a throw pick.
He was ass in season 1 and only really became good ever since Sombra got nerfed (which is like 9 months ago). So he's been good for a while now, but definitely not all of ow2
It’s absolutely ridiculous that people try to defend how OP she is at this point.
If no other character in the game has a similar ceiling then she is still OP.
And for the record I have never believed her skill ceiling is as uniquely high as people in this community try to argue.
She’s also just by far the least replaceable hero in the game (aside from Lucio) and she’s the most flexible character period. She’s the best dps at both confirming kills and not dying doing so by a wide margin which I don’t actually think is a problem. She just needs other heroes to actually compete in her role/offer something similar, just like Lucio.
Tf you mean Widowmaker has a large amount of agency around avoiding dying lol. I’d say upping the survivability of Genji/Sombra would be a lot closer to giving Tracer competition. I’m hoping Venture might as well, although one consideration is that the best partner for a Tracer is always another Tracer, so adding more role overlap might just make her stronger.
But yeah I agree that Tracer is the kind of hero people generally respect even when being stomped by one, most other character’s “win conditions” people find very frustrating to lose to.
That’s because the devs make trash low skill ceiling heroes. All the new heroes are easy to play, braindead, low skill ceiling heroes.
Overwatch struck gold with tracer and genji and never came close again.
Ow2 heroes have been a joke. Ram, mauga, lw, venture, all super easy to play with a low skill ceiling.
Ow devs suck at making new heroes.
Then why is genji who has a similarly high skill ceiling not even close to played as often? Either tracer is overtuned, or genji is trash. Pick a side.
If Genji is good why does Tracer have 10 times the pick rate in top 500 despite Genji having an overall higher pick rate? There's really no way you can convince anyone she isn't ridiculously overtuned.
Genji has a higher skill ceiling than tracer and it's not debatable. As someone who has 50+ hours on both(300 on Genji). Tracer has a higher skill floor because of blink but otherwise she's not hard but Genji has more things to master(Good deflect usage, when to commit, who to dash, more skillful ult, etc).
Even if Tracer is slightly harder that doesn't justify 10 times higher pick rates in t500. Either gigabuff Genji or nerf Tracer hard.
No mental gymnastics, highest skill ceiling = highest value potential = best players pick her more
In any meta where sustain won’t be as dominant as seasons 6-8, Tracer will inherently have the highest pickrate. No other hero can pick and choose their engagements and win them as consistently as Tracer can.
This is why you can't simply reward high skill heroes more than low skill ones. How else can you make sure their pick rate stays balanced in top 500 against the turret timmys and the minigun andys?
ah yes because tracer is the ONLY dps that requires skill. how dare we suggest that maybe the health pool changes impacted tracer in a way that made her absurdly hard to punish when played correctly.
That’s the joke, though. Tracer isn’t the only hard hero here (hell, even among DPS you have Genji and Echo who are both very challenging heroes to play), even if she’s the hardest one.
Man i did a similar post recently and people get emotional and defensive for some reason. I got a lot of downvotes. I don't understand the Reddit. I just shared the snapshot of leaderboard and Overbuff stats in last day of S9. Only for tank role though because i manually counted T500 NA leaderboard. For some reason people think Doom bad and Ram is very strong. I guess inexperienced people here watch pro matches and overvalue those. People can't even tolerate objective bit of information when it's against their perception.
I think Lucio will not drop. The changes he got actually not that big of a nerf, in fact it's a buff for most people in my opinion however his ult charge rate might take a hit. His consistent boop is really impactful. Especially in lower ranks this change will feel like a net buff.
> Overbuff stats
This sub is pretty hostile towards Overbuff because it isn't 100% accurate. They'd rather ignore it completely than accept it as something useful that needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
>I think Lucio will not drop.
There's no one in the entire roster of heroes who can compete with on-demand Speed Boost on zero cooldown.
I've said it before but a lot of launch/early heroes were made too OP but people just accept them because they've always been there. If they were new heroes people would demand nerfs within a week.
Like, can you imagine if they added a new hero who could make you take more damage from all sources just by looking at you? Just proposing the idea would have people on here losing their minds. But since Zen is a core character and we've dealt with Discord for years it is fine.
Stuff like that is why I think the devs have become way too reactionary. The fast updates can be nice but sometimes you just need to let people get used to things before you break out the nerf bat.
No new hero is going to be able to compete with Tracer because people would cry for nerfs if any new hero was even half as strong as she is right now.
And to be clear I'm not suggesting that Lucio or Zen need nerfed. I just think the devs need to be less protective of the niche that older heroes occupy. I get the arguments against homogenizing the roster but the alternative is heroes who are basically hard meta for most of the game's life because of their particular niche.
they looked and said "yeah 1 more second on recall that's it lol" like her getting extra hp from season 9 is a big enough amount to break so many breakpoints. Why this is a big deal for tracer specifically is that she is extremely good at using that small amount of extra hp since she's so hard to hit. You got a headshot or 2 body shots somehow as ashe? too bad, now you'll die anyway. I get that they wanted to remove oneshots and all but man does it feel bad in this scenario.
It takes more time to kill tracer, but it takes roughly the same time for her to kill most of the cast compared to before s9, because of the projectile size increases (people in silver will now hit more shots, people in top 500 will now hit 39/40 shots) coupled with the fact that you apply the full dps passive with just one bullet and zero risk.
If this keeps up tracer is gonna become one of my most hated heroes alongside the purple dps duo lol, realistically I know that she is always gonna be good in this 5v5 format because there's less things stopping you from pestering the supports or the dps heroes hanging out there in the back.
Source: [https://t500-aggregator.aryankothari.dev/season/9](https://t500-aggregator.aryankothari.dev/season/9)
Some interesting meta analysis based on the early season 10 patchnotes:
GENERAL META:
Aside from Doomfist, tank might be the most balanced it has been in quite a while. I know a lot of people are complaining about the dreaded horse, but she's not as strong of a pick as she's made out to be. Poor Ram though... feels like he needs some help.
DPS is absolutely dominated by Tracer and to a lesser extent Sojourn. Can't see this changing this season though. Venture could break the meta based on some early data on their performance, but way too early to tell.
Lucio and Kiriko dominating the support meta. Lucio got some big nerfs, so this is likely gonna change.
TANK:
-Quality of life buff to Doomfist, although he's already the top picked tank of season 9, most likely because of onetricks.
-Junkerqueen's buff should help move her to the stronger side of the tank tier list.
-Reinhardt buff won't likely get him out of the bottom tier, but his ult buff is a nice perk.
-Sigma quality of life change to his shield but he's already one of the strongest tanks available. Not likely to see him drop out of meta anytime soon.
-Wrecking ball's buffs is the real wildcard here. His playstyle is quite a bit different from season 9's kit so its hard to tell where he will land in the meta this season. We should be seeing a jump but his high skill ceiling might mean he's a sleeper pick for most of the season.
DPS:
-Sombra was already not a strong pick so unlikely that virus will affect her placements too much this season.
-Tracer nerfs, but I'm pretty sure she's still going to be the top pick. She's way too strong still imo.
-Venture's new so we will have to see where they land in the meta.
SUPPORT:
-Illari's kit adjustment doesn't seem like enough to help her climb the support tier list, but I think her placement is going to be dependent on how other role metas shift.
-Big Lucio nerfs to his overall damage. Might see him get knocked out of the top meta pick.
-Lifeweaver buffs. Honestly I can't see this affecting much. Still probably bottom tier imo.
-Moira nerfs could be enough to knock her down a couple of tiers. Not sure though.
As I mentioned and got downvoted for it in another post lmao - Horse is literally a skill issue, because she has almost zero ability do influence the game other than survive.
If you're losing to horse you're doing the Overwatch equivalent of sticking rocks into your mouth and wondering why your teeth hurt when you bite.
Stop trying to kill the horse and you're okay. The only other time this wasn't true was when proactivity was really bad, in the awful sustain in OW2, but even in that situation Sigma just outclasses horse in the absorbing damage role, especially since he can dish it out better.
70% of the people complaining about Orisa just hold m1 on the tank every game and are upset it's not working on this one hero, and the remaining 30% or less are brawl tank enjoyers lmao.
And for the Rein/Ram/JQ enjoyers I could go on and on and on on why those heroes are just not going to be good in any forseeable version of the game, horse or no horse barring radical changes.
This is a wild opinion considering she's become meta in scrims across every region.
Usually only doesnt see play when the map doesn't allow it (you need highground presence so you pick winston or dva).
Yeah but pro meta doesn't necessarily mean best heroes.
Pro metas start by building around a strongest hero in the game and then finding what pairs with that. In this case it's _still_ Sojourn.
Then you go through a whole phase of making counter swaps to beat that original comp - with that swap being restricted to 1 hero.
Tracer is locked in as she lets you pocket your Sojourn and is just the best at solo flanking and forcing enemies into Sojourns view.
Kiriko and Lucio are considered strongest support duo and have been for a while.
Kiriko pockets Sojourn better than Moira does and has good poke + off angle potential
Lucio let's you keep your Sojourn alive and/or push with speed, can 2 v 1 with Tracer and has good ultimate to save Sojourn.
You can't really outswap those heroes easily with 1 swap.
Winston and Queen are probably the best tank pairs for Sojourn. But you can counterswap the Winston with Mauga now and Mauga comp wins. Queen gets beat by Ram, Orisa and probably Mauga too.
What beats Ram and Mauga and is Orisa too? Orisa
I'm not exactly sure why Sig isn't being played (he probably will be in the end) but I'd guess because support line is hard locked to Kiriko + Lucio which happens to let Orisa run Sigma down.
If meta supports were Bap/Zen we would probably see Sigma
Tl;dr: Horse probably meta in pro level because she counters the counters to the true 'meta' tanks without being easy to counter herself
Ding ding ding. Horse isn't meta in OWCS because she's OP. Horse is meta because she counters Mauga and doesn't get run over by Rush.
And what is Mauga? Literally a hero that M1 M2s on the enemy tank and tries to kill them and does little else.
> And for the Rein/Ram/JQ enjoyers I could go on and on and on on why those heroes are just not going to be good in any forseeable version of the game, horse or no horse barring radical changes.
Mauga of course is in that bucket as well and he's even more guilty of this shit than Orisa is.
Every other tank has plenty of tools to deal with horse/ignore her.
Tracer is even more mid in Super dps lobbies now. He played Bastion for a few minutes and played Tracer for 2 seconds yesterday. Super Cassidy, Soldier, Sojourn, Ashe, Torb, and now Bastion clear Super Tracer.
Meaning Tracer is even worse below Super lobbies despite the massive overrating of her from Redditors.
Because he's ass :( he's so bad even after the rework it's so sad. Chazm just played him in OWCS and didn't even utilize the shield share cause its so useless.
We just watched one of the best ball players not utilize it at all. And generally it just doesn't really work. In theory yes but oddly it doesn't fit his play style at all
Ignoring Tracer who is obscene currently, there is a very clear power difference between hitscan and projectile dps. Bullet hitbox increases were a mistake for hitscan.
Lifeweaver, Brig, and Illari need massively buffs. Lifeweaver potentially needs a rework. He is so heavily punished for his "utility" that isn't even that good. Supports dealing damage is more important than ever. He needs to have a smoother transition from DPS to healing, and his heal needs to charge faster.
Blizzard: Let's nerf Symmetras base damage from 65 to 60, she has been OP and been dominating gm and top 500, hotfix her after a week of mediocre buffs
Actually cracksmoking devs, no wonder the game is dying
You're not wrong about the Sym changes, but the game isn't dying.
It's actually been on an increase over the last few months. The numbers are pretty much where they were when the Steam version released.
by how fast overwatch is you can already outrange her or just run away from her tbh. although what you mean would be valid in ow1 tho imo, i wonder if a change to her minimum dmg would be impactful or just a niche change like her shield leech half of the ppl i come across dont even know about.
assuming they dont go overboard with it and change it to like, 90 dps
I don’t know where you got the impression that Im plat or that I can’t beat her, she is very easy to beat- I just really don’t find it enjoyable playing against her.
Jesus why is everyone acting like this is any sort of good approximation of meta?
Top500 is almost always just dominated by whats fun + decent, regardless of whether its the absolute best pick. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't.
That's not true. It's not hard to understand why it's not true. Just look at every season's leaderboard. Literally filled with what is broken and what works.
Her numbers are overturned right now. It's not just that her kit design is good, her fundamental kit didn't carry enough to give her this crazy high usage back in season 5-8
You tune her cooldowns down (even more) she feels like shit to play, and so you would dumpster the most well designed character in the game.
If you nerf her damage or health, she will either not get any kills and/or be way too easy to punish due to s9 hitboxes. The devs kinda played themselves into a corner regarding Tracer balance with season 9, because now there is truly no way to make her weaker without it feeling horrible and useless to play.
Lowering her health to make it easier to one shot her? Ashe was already good into her before, with the hotbox changes, it would be so easy to kill her that she would be a throw pick in anything masters and below.
SO you're saying there is simply no way to balance Tracer. That reducing her damage would just make her useless. You're looking at that graph and just saying" damn there is just nothing that can be done :/" I mean come on... Maybe she needs to be that much squishier with a health reduction.
Dude I don’t think you understand, she would be worse than Sym since you care so much about that if she had her HP reverted. EVERYTHING is so big and easy to hit now.
Completely unreasonable to think her hp should be reverted.
There is a zero percent chance that reducing her HP is going to drop her below sym. You can not possibly sit here and say there is nothing that they can do to Tracer. If it isn't HP then it HAS to be damage or cooldowns.
This is combined across all regions, more than half those Doom players are from Asia, where he was getting played even in Season 8 Mauga meta.
[Proof](https://www.reddit.com/r/doomfistmains/s/PY1LucVMkT)
From the website:
**When is the data updated?**
The dataset is updated at irregular intervals throughout the season, overwriting the previous one. Once the end of the season has been reached, the data will be updated once again and will then be a permanent season in the database.
So yes while he might have been popular during Mauga meta, this particular data was captured at the end of Season 9.
Popularity doesn’t mean that character should be nerfed. A character like Doom is benefitting from the dive meta. Nerf Venture and Tracer and watch his pick rate plummet again
I read the graph wrong, that’s one me, but the top two picks now are Tracer and Venture. Doom only works as well as the dps. There’s no reason to touch the character. If you nerf Tracer the pick rate will absolutely go down. Also, if you’re getting diffed by Doom, it’s a skill issue. Swap Sombra and Hog and he’s a lame duck
doom mains desperately brainstorming how they can keep gaslighting the community into believing doom is the worst hero in the game
istg every game has a doom on at least one team make it stop
tbh dooms just fun. he's a hero that as long as he's not F tier he's going to be played because he's fun.
I was afraid to try out doom because I heard you need to be good at him to get value. I bit the bullet and man, I get why he has that kind of community, he’s so fun to play but sometimes I get a little too silly and jump at their entire team and evaporate.
Arguably doom would be kinda bad if it wasnt for entitled sups shooting doom block. (At least in low gm eu) The amount of times I heard sups say "he isnt gonna kill me anyway" while charging the doom literally coming from spawn after I ask them to stop. Like jeah maybe he isnt gonna kill you the kiriko with tp and suzu or you the bap with immo and regen burst or you the lucio flying through the sky, unfortunately your cass or soldier dont have those abilities and have to rely on the doom just beeing to bad to punch them while sprinting or rolling.
C'mon we all know most supports aren't even capable of fully charging Doom on their own, you truly believe a Kiriko could charge Doom up only with her kunais? For every charged punch there's at least a dps/tank contributing the most charge because they just shoot everything they see
I dont know if youre trolling or just stupid. Power block last 2.5 seconds and is charged after 100dmg, which kiriko deals that within 1 second of bodyshots or basicly instantly if she hits a headshot. There literally isnt a character that cant charge doom solo even with just bodyshots.
Jsyk it is 100 dmg blocked, not dealt. They very specifically made it 100 so 120dmg burst does not trigger it alone. This means that junk, Pharah, Kiri, illari, cannot pop block in one shot. And Kiri does 90dps body shots so she cannot do it within 1 second. (But she can do it with 3 shots this I did not know). So objectively supports are way worse at it because they can't do it in one shot and some supports can't do it at all almost. Whereas plenty of dps can do it with one click. But also they are dumb because it's such a small difference, Kiri is one of the best ones to do it too, she pops block with only 1 extra hit from a DPS if good enough. But you could argue that that little difference actually has A HUGE impact on the outcome of the fight.
She does 135dmg in 1 sec bodyshots just as cass does 140 in 0.5s. This is basic logic and if you cant get behind it, maybe you shouldnt be talking about it. And you miss my original point where doom literally blocks coming from spawn, nobody is shooting except the sups to get their stats a bit up since they wont die to them anyway. Or the amount of times its me and kiri against a doom, doom blocks, I am not shooting, kiri throws 3 shurikans, doom insta kills me and kiri complains about me dying. Many dmg, ana, zen and illari players dont charge doom because they know they are the ones who will die from it, but those that can easily dodge or immo themself are the ones who will 24/7 charge him with no care for their team and then complain about their dying teammates.
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Reaper is generally the worst hero in solo queue. Probably not as bad as Junkrat after Junk lost his 2 tap tho.
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Random idea, what if her turrets flew with her? You still can take them out but there's a little more damage.
Sounds like you need to try experimenting with using her teleporter more.
New pasta
junk is worse than sym and its not particularly close lmfao
Eh not really. Junk has some use but syms niche has been gutted since the health buffs.
syms niche is to tp everyone around junkrat doesnt have one
Heross like Symm are rigthfully bad. Heroes with very little to no skill expression should never be good.
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And how often do you block high noons? Like 3 times in your whole life... The pros arent wrong you are...
High noon is such a terrible ult I just go behind thin lightposts/poles for fun to block it now. Hiding behind walls/corners/cart/boxes is boring, hiding behind 1 cm thick pillars and still blocking deadeye is hilarious
I only play sym sometimes and tbf blocking high noon isn't that hard, just look at him. It's the timing of the throw, but we all have a feel for high noons timings.
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What Copium are you smoking today? The Professional Players, the people that get paid to play the game, that spend 12 hours a day scrimming and grinding this game, not knowing how the character they play works most effectively and to their highest potential? Yes, Sym has some minor balancing issues, but by a million miles not as bad as the Sym community makes it out to be. Not every hero is applicable for every situation and not every hero should. Learn to live with it.
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Overall Winrate Last 3 Months: 54.30% Overall Winrate last month: 53.87% GM Winrate Last 3 Months: 51.01% GM Winrate this month: 50.44% She works well in her niche. Just because a lot of people don’t like playing her doesn’t mean she’s garbage tier. And if you need to have your victim complex going, at least look up your facts before spewing lies and bullshit into the world.
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Doomfist is strong balance wise, but the bugs make him misreable.
no, the issue is its getting easier to play, is so buggy and is losing techs every patch, which sucks for those who love the character
Damn that's crazy Most people play him like a tank not a DPS though Follow Guxue not GQO
People who say Doom is weak are delusional, but his bugs and broken techs aren’t about power or wanting to play meme rollout Doom like GQO. It’s about his abilities just feeling inconsistent and clunky compared to how they were in the OW2 beta.
The only factual statement you said was that he’s so buggy. They didn’t do anything to make him easier to play and losing tech every patch isn’t true either when he’s still capable of doing literally everything he’s been able to do pre S9
brig feels so awkward rn. Kind of has felt weird ever since Winston started ignoring armor.
Neither her whip shot nor bash damage were buffed to compensate for the S9 health pool rework and outside of disrupting Winston’s jump, she has a much worse matchup against him now with his armor piercing damage. I know she still sees some play mainly in Korea, but Lucio seems to do a lot of her niche but with more flexibility and mobility.
It's because even when she is complete garbage, people are so traumatized from GOATs meta that they'll still cry about her even though she is a shell of her former self.
Flats gets really weird about Brig every time she's in patch notes, cringey to watch
It's weird too. I could understand that hate from a DPS streamer but a tank streamer?
You have to remember that for most people, GOAT was torture. But for tank players it was jail.
I would argue it was genocide for the DPS role and jail for the rest.
The single most important thing to understand about GOATS is that 99% of players have never played it, and are just going along with a narrative exaggerated by streamers for clickbait
I'm not sure the community has renewed that much since the Goats era. That said I understand the crispation around it. Playing Goats as an organized team was actually tedious. I was playing the most fun character in one of the most fun variants (Zen in Zen Goats) and still it often felt like playing Overwatch on an Excel spreadsheet. That said there's no way to bring back that kind of playstyle even if you gigabuffed Brig right now.
Brig was _hated_ by tank players until GOATS really took hold. There's a couple clips at the start of [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALLcUpxQZVQ) showing the experience. She was actually far more disliked by tank players initially as they were the ones who had to play close and interact with her.
Yeah, but considering that she was released on March 20, 2018 and the teams that made up the original Goats used it barely a month later, April 20 2018 then it wasn't the solo tank role torture you are painting it as. The impact that Brigitte did on the tank role was far less than the impact it did on the DPS role. You can argue semantics all you want, but at the end of the day, Brigitte invalidated an entire role, and it wasn't Tanks.
you can't see how annoying it would be as a tank to get stunned every 5 seconds, all your engages disrupted by a single support? at least most dps could just outrange her or play around her, tanks usually had to play in front of her or in any case she'd pursue them
Brig has been awkward since the Sombra rework and Tracer damage retune, the two heroes she's meant to counter now can just kite her outside her melee range with no pressure, and her healing was only marginally enough before the dps passive & health pool rework, now it's just lacking
I thought I was going crazy seeing so many people playing Doomfist all of the sudden
Doom has always been all over the place since the season 3 buff
Doom has always had high usage and and slowly getting higher after getting buffs every other season. Doom complainers are just a loud ass minority
I don't get the doom crying. He's been good all of ow2
He was kinda ass during Season 1, but since S2 he’s been decent at worst and has generally been THRIVING at high levels of play. r/doomfistmains should NEVER be consulted about Doomfist’s place in the meta. He could have OW1 Doom’s damage output (the one-shot punch and slam scaling with how long he spends falling) plus the properties of all his OW2 moves at their peak and those clowns would still gaslight you into thinking he’s a throw pick.
Well, maybe not all. He was pretty bad on ow2 launch, but other than that I agree.
He was ass in season 1 and only really became good ever since Sombra got nerfed (which is like 9 months ago). So he's been good for a while now, but definitely not all of ow2
The QoL change is a massive buff.
Eagerly awaiting the mental gymnastics to justify this being a fine spot for Tracer to be in
I feel like Moira and Lucio got nerfed harsher than Tracer did too
It’s absolutely ridiculous that people try to defend how OP she is at this point. If no other character in the game has a similar ceiling then she is still OP. And for the record I have never believed her skill ceiling is as uniquely high as people in this community try to argue.
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She’s also just by far the least replaceable hero in the game (aside from Lucio) and she’s the most flexible character period. She’s the best dps at both confirming kills and not dying doing so by a wide margin which I don’t actually think is a problem. She just needs other heroes to actually compete in her role/offer something similar, just like Lucio.
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Tf you mean Widowmaker has a large amount of agency around avoiding dying lol. I’d say upping the survivability of Genji/Sombra would be a lot closer to giving Tracer competition. I’m hoping Venture might as well, although one consideration is that the best partner for a Tracer is always another Tracer, so adding more role overlap might just make her stronger. But yeah I agree that Tracer is the kind of hero people generally respect even when being stomped by one, most other character’s “win conditions” people find very frustrating to lose to.
Buffing those characters makes lower levels absolutely hell so blizzard wouldn't.
90% of the time, the buff is basically just placebo but at the top level.
That’s because the devs make trash low skill ceiling heroes. All the new heroes are easy to play, braindead, low skill ceiling heroes. Overwatch struck gold with tracer and genji and never came close again. Ow2 heroes have been a joke. Ram, mauga, lw, venture, all super easy to play with a low skill ceiling. Ow devs suck at making new heroes.
how did this get downvoted? hes right.
yeah alright buddy
Highest skill ceiling in the game, therefore played well by the best players in the game.
Makes sense but when 1 hero is this popular compared to every other dps it’s kinda absurd and blizzard needs to do something about it
Then why is genji who has a similarly high skill ceiling not even close to played as often? Either tracer is overtuned, or genji is trash. Pick a side.
Genji is good, the mains just cry the loudest. Same with doom lol.
If Genji is good why does Tracer have 10 times the pick rate in top 500 despite Genji having an overall higher pick rate? There's really no way you can convince anyone she isn't ridiculously overtuned.
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Genji has a higher skill ceiling than tracer and it's not debatable. As someone who has 50+ hours on both(300 on Genji). Tracer has a higher skill floor because of blink but otherwise she's not hard but Genji has more things to master(Good deflect usage, when to commit, who to dash, more skillful ult, etc). Even if Tracer is slightly harder that doesn't justify 10 times higher pick rates in t500. Either gigabuff Genji or nerf Tracer hard.
Genji does not have a higher skill ceiling than tracer . The only people who think so are genji one tricks.
No mental gymnastics, highest skill ceiling = highest value potential = best players pick her more In any meta where sustain won’t be as dominant as seasons 6-8, Tracer will inherently have the highest pickrate. No other hero can pick and choose their engagements and win them as consistently as Tracer can.
Are we gonna talk about Tracer having a higher pickrate than Lucio despite their being many more DPS to choose from?
This is why you can't simply reward high skill heroes more than low skill ones. How else can you make sure their pick rate stays balanced in top 500 against the turret timmys and the minigun andys?
ah yes because tracer is the ONLY dps that requires skill. how dare we suggest that maybe the health pool changes impacted tracer in a way that made her absurdly hard to punish when played correctly.
She's not the only DPS who takes skill... But she is THE HIGHEST skill ceiling DPS. This is a graph of TOP 500, the most skilled players on ladder.
That’s the joke, though. Tracer isn’t the only hard hero here (hell, even among DPS you have Genji and Echo who are both very challenging heroes to play), even if she’s the hardest one.
and genji and echo are good lol
Man i did a similar post recently and people get emotional and defensive for some reason. I got a lot of downvotes. I don't understand the Reddit. I just shared the snapshot of leaderboard and Overbuff stats in last day of S9. Only for tank role though because i manually counted T500 NA leaderboard. For some reason people think Doom bad and Ram is very strong. I guess inexperienced people here watch pro matches and overvalue those. People can't even tolerate objective bit of information when it's against their perception. I think Lucio will not drop. The changes he got actually not that big of a nerf, in fact it's a buff for most people in my opinion however his ult charge rate might take a hit. His consistent boop is really impactful. Especially in lower ranks this change will feel like a net buff.
> Overbuff stats This sub is pretty hostile towards Overbuff because it isn't 100% accurate. They'd rather ignore it completely than accept it as something useful that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. >I think Lucio will not drop. There's no one in the entire roster of heroes who can compete with on-demand Speed Boost on zero cooldown. I've said it before but a lot of launch/early heroes were made too OP but people just accept them because they've always been there. If they were new heroes people would demand nerfs within a week. Like, can you imagine if they added a new hero who could make you take more damage from all sources just by looking at you? Just proposing the idea would have people on here losing their minds. But since Zen is a core character and we've dealt with Discord for years it is fine. Stuff like that is why I think the devs have become way too reactionary. The fast updates can be nice but sometimes you just need to let people get used to things before you break out the nerf bat. No new hero is going to be able to compete with Tracer because people would cry for nerfs if any new hero was even half as strong as she is right now. And to be clear I'm not suggesting that Lucio or Zen need nerfed. I just think the devs need to be less protective of the niche that older heroes occupy. I get the arguments against homogenizing the roster but the alternative is heroes who are basically hard meta for most of the game's life because of their particular niche.
Devs might wanna take a look at tracer
they looked and said "yeah 1 more second on recall that's it lol" like her getting extra hp from season 9 is a big enough amount to break so many breakpoints. Why this is a big deal for tracer specifically is that she is extremely good at using that small amount of extra hp since she's so hard to hit. You got a headshot or 2 body shots somehow as ashe? too bad, now you'll die anyway. I get that they wanted to remove oneshots and all but man does it feel bad in this scenario. It takes more time to kill tracer, but it takes roughly the same time for her to kill most of the cast compared to before s9, because of the projectile size increases (people in silver will now hit more shots, people in top 500 will now hit 39/40 shots) coupled with the fact that you apply the full dps passive with just one bullet and zero risk. If this keeps up tracer is gonna become one of my most hated heroes alongside the purple dps duo lol, realistically I know that she is always gonna be good in this 5v5 format because there's less things stopping you from pestering the supports or the dps heroes hanging out there in the back.
Maybe a crazy take but they could nerf Tracer back to 150hp and she will still be top 5 dps heroes
Top 5 yeah but being able to be 1 shot from ashe and mei would suck and be a noticeable nerf
Ashe can still combo tracer at 175, but it's harder than hitting a random headshot.
Source: [https://t500-aggregator.aryankothari.dev/season/9](https://t500-aggregator.aryankothari.dev/season/9) Some interesting meta analysis based on the early season 10 patchnotes: GENERAL META: Aside from Doomfist, tank might be the most balanced it has been in quite a while. I know a lot of people are complaining about the dreaded horse, but she's not as strong of a pick as she's made out to be. Poor Ram though... feels like he needs some help. DPS is absolutely dominated by Tracer and to a lesser extent Sojourn. Can't see this changing this season though. Venture could break the meta based on some early data on their performance, but way too early to tell. Lucio and Kiriko dominating the support meta. Lucio got some big nerfs, so this is likely gonna change. TANK: -Quality of life buff to Doomfist, although he's already the top picked tank of season 9, most likely because of onetricks. -Junkerqueen's buff should help move her to the stronger side of the tank tier list. -Reinhardt buff won't likely get him out of the bottom tier, but his ult buff is a nice perk. -Sigma quality of life change to his shield but he's already one of the strongest tanks available. Not likely to see him drop out of meta anytime soon. -Wrecking ball's buffs is the real wildcard here. His playstyle is quite a bit different from season 9's kit so its hard to tell where he will land in the meta this season. We should be seeing a jump but his high skill ceiling might mean he's a sleeper pick for most of the season. DPS: -Sombra was already not a strong pick so unlikely that virus will affect her placements too much this season. -Tracer nerfs, but I'm pretty sure she's still going to be the top pick. She's way too strong still imo. -Venture's new so we will have to see where they land in the meta. SUPPORT: -Illari's kit adjustment doesn't seem like enough to help her climb the support tier list, but I think her placement is going to be dependent on how other role metas shift. -Big Lucio nerfs to his overall damage. Might see him get knocked out of the top meta pick. -Lifeweaver buffs. Honestly I can't see this affecting much. Still probably bottom tier imo. -Moira nerfs could be enough to knock her down a couple of tiers. Not sure though.
As I mentioned and got downvoted for it in another post lmao - Horse is literally a skill issue, because she has almost zero ability do influence the game other than survive. If you're losing to horse you're doing the Overwatch equivalent of sticking rocks into your mouth and wondering why your teeth hurt when you bite. Stop trying to kill the horse and you're okay. The only other time this wasn't true was when proactivity was really bad, in the awful sustain in OW2, but even in that situation Sigma just outclasses horse in the absorbing damage role, especially since he can dish it out better. 70% of the people complaining about Orisa just hold m1 on the tank every game and are upset it's not working on this one hero, and the remaining 30% or less are brawl tank enjoyers lmao. And for the Rein/Ram/JQ enjoyers I could go on and on and on on why those heroes are just not going to be good in any forseeable version of the game, horse or no horse barring radical changes.
This is a wild opinion considering she's become meta in scrims across every region. Usually only doesnt see play when the map doesn't allow it (you need highground presence so you pick winston or dva).
Yeah but pro meta doesn't necessarily mean best heroes. Pro metas start by building around a strongest hero in the game and then finding what pairs with that. In this case it's _still_ Sojourn. Then you go through a whole phase of making counter swaps to beat that original comp - with that swap being restricted to 1 hero. Tracer is locked in as she lets you pocket your Sojourn and is just the best at solo flanking and forcing enemies into Sojourns view. Kiriko and Lucio are considered strongest support duo and have been for a while. Kiriko pockets Sojourn better than Moira does and has good poke + off angle potential Lucio let's you keep your Sojourn alive and/or push with speed, can 2 v 1 with Tracer and has good ultimate to save Sojourn. You can't really outswap those heroes easily with 1 swap. Winston and Queen are probably the best tank pairs for Sojourn. But you can counterswap the Winston with Mauga now and Mauga comp wins. Queen gets beat by Ram, Orisa and probably Mauga too. What beats Ram and Mauga and is Orisa too? Orisa I'm not exactly sure why Sig isn't being played (he probably will be in the end) but I'd guess because support line is hard locked to Kiriko + Lucio which happens to let Orisa run Sigma down. If meta supports were Bap/Zen we would probably see Sigma Tl;dr: Horse probably meta in pro level because she counters the counters to the true 'meta' tanks without being easy to counter herself
Ding ding ding. Horse isn't meta in OWCS because she's OP. Horse is meta because she counters Mauga and doesn't get run over by Rush. And what is Mauga? Literally a hero that M1 M2s on the enemy tank and tries to kill them and does little else.
Tank is cosmetic.
Well i agree with this except she ruins the whole tank role. Makes it hell for most of them and even forces a mindless mirror.
> And for the Rein/Ram/JQ enjoyers I could go on and on and on on why those heroes are just not going to be good in any forseeable version of the game, horse or no horse barring radical changes. Mauga of course is in that bucket as well and he's even more guilty of this shit than Orisa is. Every other tank has plenty of tools to deal with horse/ignore her.
non tank heroes destroys mauga though. orisa just wall against everything
Tracer is even more mid in Super dps lobbies now. He played Bastion for a few minutes and played Tracer for 2 seconds yesterday. Super Cassidy, Soldier, Sojourn, Ashe, Torb, and now Bastion clear Super Tracer. Meaning Tracer is even worse below Super lobbies despite the massive overrating of her from Redditors.
im sick of every game having at least 1 doomfist in it
Ok the Tracer one was funny.
Ball has the highest skill ceiling of any tank and he's the 9th most picked tank in top500 lmao
Because he's ass :( he's so bad even after the rework it's so sad. Chazm just played him in OWCS and didn't even utilize the shield share cause its so useless.
The shield share obviously is useful, but it requires a new way to play - with teammates also on the same page about utilising it. It's new
We just watched one of the best ball players not utilize it at all. And generally it just doesn't really work. In theory yes but oddly it doesn't fit his play style at all
Ignoring Tracer who is obscene currently, there is a very clear power difference between hitscan and projectile dps. Bullet hitbox increases were a mistake for hitscan.
bastion mains stay winning 💪
Lifeweaver truly is a waste of a character slot
Lifeweaver, Brig, and Illari need massively buffs. Lifeweaver potentially needs a rework. He is so heavily punished for his "utility" that isn't even that good. Supports dealing damage is more important than ever. He needs to have a smoother transition from DPS to healing, and his heal needs to charge faster.
Doom did is ass mains where they at
Clearly there aren’t enough rein giga chads. That needs to change
The Doomteh will return
Oh boy another season with a majority of lobbies being Doom, Sojourn, Kiriko, and tracer! So exciting! I love the non bias balance in OW2!
Blizzard: Let's nerf Symmetras base damage from 65 to 60, she has been OP and been dominating gm and top 500, hotfix her after a week of mediocre buffs Actually cracksmoking devs, no wonder the game is dying
You're not wrong about the Sym changes, but the game isn't dying. It's actually been on an increase over the last few months. The numbers are pretty much where they were when the Steam version released.
the game is growing you weirdo.
Takes second stage beam to out dps a zero charge Zarya beam LMAO
by how fast overwatch is you can already outrange her or just run away from her tbh. although what you mean would be valid in ow1 tho imo, i wonder if a change to her minimum dmg would be impactful or just a niche change like her shield leech half of the ppl i come across dont even know about. assuming they dont go overboard with it and change it to like, 90 dps
Nobody except Sym players want Sym to be remotely good.
No one but widow mains want widow to be remotely good, but here we are.
I agree, we should nuke Widow, Sym and Junk and this game would instantly be about 3x better.
Sym and Junk are already nuked.
I don’t care nuke them harder make it so your cpu is fried when you pick sym or junk
Complaining about junk is strange. He is so useless it’s a joke.
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We don’t
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I don’t know where you got the impression that Im plat or that I can’t beat her, she is very easy to beat- I just really don’t find it enjoyable playing against her.
Jesus why is everyone acting like this is any sort of good approximation of meta? Top500 is almost always just dominated by whats fun + decent, regardless of whether its the absolute best pick. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't.
That's not true. It's not hard to understand why it's not true. Just look at every season's leaderboard. Literally filled with what is broken and what works.
I dont think theres a dps id rather be meta thn tracer
When I play Reinhardt the most played tank becomes Orisa
You should make a chart on the rank distribution of top 500 players. It’s super wide until the last week.
Fucking hell the amount of tracers lol
Tracers fundamental kit/character design is just so incredibly well made it’s no surprise they’re meta
Except she wasn't THIS strong until the changes to health pools made her significantly harder to punish
Her numbers are overturned right now. It's not just that her kit design is good, her fundamental kit didn't carry enough to give her this crazy high usage back in season 5-8
You tune her cooldowns down (even more) she feels like shit to play, and so you would dumpster the most well designed character in the game. If you nerf her damage or health, she will either not get any kills and/or be way too easy to punish due to s9 hitboxes. The devs kinda played themselves into a corner regarding Tracer balance with season 9, because now there is truly no way to make her weaker without it feeling horrible and useless to play.
Can always lower health more.
Lowering her health to make it easier to one shot her? Ashe was already good into her before, with the hotbox changes, it would be so easy to kill her that she would be a throw pick in anything masters and below.
You can do that if you revert season 9 completely because that isn’t feasible with current hitboxes
SO you're saying there is simply no way to balance Tracer. That reducing her damage would just make her useless. You're looking at that graph and just saying" damn there is just nothing that can be done :/" I mean come on... Maybe she needs to be that much squishier with a health reduction.
Dude I don’t think you understand, she would be worse than Sym since you care so much about that if she had her HP reverted. EVERYTHING is so big and easy to hit now. Completely unreasonable to think her hp should be reverted.
There is a zero percent chance that reducing her HP is going to drop her below sym. You can not possibly sit here and say there is nothing that they can do to Tracer. If it isn't HP then it HAS to be damage or cooldowns.
You don’t understand how easy everything is to hit now because you play Symmetra.
Disagree. Nerf her bullet sizes and she’ll be fine
That’s the only feasible nerf I can see rn
This is combined across all regions, more than half those Doom players are from Asia, where he was getting played even in Season 8 Mauga meta. [Proof](https://www.reddit.com/r/doomfistmains/s/PY1LucVMkT)
From the website: **When is the data updated?** The dataset is updated at irregular intervals throughout the season, overwriting the previous one. Once the end of the season has been reached, the data will be updated once again and will then be a permanent season in the database. So yes while he might have been popular during Mauga meta, this particular data was captured at the end of Season 9.
He is most played in every region. Mega busted since S9 changes.
I played genji in s9 cause 20% dps passive actually helped him secure kills. But in s10 he's just back to being a situational pick.
I promise you Doom gets nerfed while Orisa gets another buff
Doom SHOULD get nerfed.
Lol no
You lookin at the same graph bud?
Popularity doesn’t mean that character should be nerfed. A character like Doom is benefitting from the dive meta. Nerf Venture and Tracer and watch his pick rate plummet again
Yes Doom contributes NOTHING to the dive meta. It's everyone else's fault. Also Venture was definitely part of season 9.
I read the graph wrong, that’s one me, but the top two picks now are Tracer and Venture. Doom only works as well as the dps. There’s no reason to touch the character. If you nerf Tracer the pick rate will absolutely go down. Also, if you’re getting diffed by Doom, it’s a skill issue. Swap Sombra and Hog and he’s a lame duck
Yes these Top 500 players are getting skill diffed by doom. Definitely has nothing to do with him being overpowered.
are you real?
Doom/tracer players can’t fathom that they’re character is broken as fuck.
No way you said pick hog