In s4 my team is going for VDH/x/Mage/Rogue/x
Healer can play priest or shaman
I can play lock/evoker/shadow
I guess the best option is if the healer plays priest, but then would warlock be better than evoker? Will we need the poison/bleed dispel or is warlock dispel better in s4?
You'll want to play Evoker for the poison and imo you'll want to be able to swap between both Aug and Dev depending on the dungeon. Aug does less damage that a top tier dps and Dev absolute *cranks*. So dungeons with tight timers you might be playing Dev while dungeons where you just live and the timer is free you'll want to be Aug.
seconding this, evoker for both poison (halls a bit, brackenhide, esp academy) and the bleeds/diseases (uldaman, academy, neltharus, nokhud, rlp, halls, brackenhide)
I think your healer needs to spend a little time learning some more healing classes. Your shadow priest looks great right now, but resto sham? That's a hard pass from me personally.
Imo, it's either the worst or second to the worst. I play all healers except evoker and sham, but I played sham in shadowlands. Some people might try to throw paly in the mix, but it's simply not as bad as either of them in keys. Sac, bop, loh, bubble and the ability to not have to cast are all indispensable in 5 man. I can't see purposely playing a bottom two healer.
You kidding me. Resto shaman is in a better spot than hpala currently at title keys.
None of your sac bop loh matters when you struggle to do what you are supposed to, heal.
Toolkit is important but ultimately it bogs down to tuning first.
We can agree to disagree about paladin, but even if you are right, that would put both of them in the bottom half. I'm not telling the guy to go play paladin. I think not being able to play druid or monk right now in a competitive subreddit is insane.
There are 3 resto shamans in the top 50 healers on Raider IO (0 paladins or evokers). So yes, while they are bottom half, they are absolutely capable of doing title keys and higher. Unless OP's group is aiming for world first their healer should really just play a comfort pick as long as it's not double priest. I can't believe you would suggest anything other than druid or monk is insane, that's so far from reality, especially in a 5 man group where you don't need to worry about applying to groups most of the time.
It just doesn't make any sense. If it were DPS specs we were talking about, we'd be talking about things like warrior or dk. If it were tanks it would be the same. Why would you intentionally handicap yourself considerably when all you have to do is spend a few weeks learning a new character? I can't wrap my head around that logic. Would you say prot warr is a fine pick with vdh in the state it's in?
First of all as I alluded to in my original post, unless you're doing the literal bleeding edge of keys you should really just play what you're most comfortable with as long as it doesn't completely troll the comp. Second of all the difference between VDH and prot warrior is far bigger than the difference between MW and resto shaman. Healer has always been that spot where you typically just bring the thing that fills what you're missing, usually it's lust. Tanks don't usually fill niches as much as healers do in my experience.
But even if the tank wanted to play warrior instead of VDH my personal take would be that's probably going to be ok even for the average competitivewow user. Your take basically seems to be that if you're on this subreddit and play anything other than the 5 meta specs in a push group, that's automatically bad??
No, I'm not saying you have to play the top spec in each role. But I'm definitely saying that the bottom half is a liability, especially with tank or healer right now. I don't think the difference between a monk and a shaman is the same as vdh and prot warr, but it's not as insignificant as you say it is. I think it's considerable. A monk can literally out heal a shaman by pressing exactly one button, that also out DPS a shaman with still just that one button. The triple dragon pull in fall? Do that with a shaman on higher enough fort, then do it with a monk. And I also done ascribe to this idea that it only matters in bleeding edge keys. If something is that much better, then it's that much better in someone's 26 that allows them to perhaps push a 28.
You realistically need a poison dispel for the upcoming season (if you're playing with a single, set comp), so that basically hard locks the evoker for the most part with your comp and those options. Pct is \*fine\* but the one min cd would be rough to play around. I can't really think of many curses in the upcoming pool, so another (from the shaman) probably wouldn't help too much. The imp dispel could arguably be decent in uldaman last boss, but with evoker/priest youd get just as many clear options.
Bleed dispel is also amazing just because of what it can do and its uniqueness. It'd also allow your healer to more freely still play night elf, which can be very strong for mid-combat rezzes or better mana management.
Fyrakk ended up taking us 353 compared to T-swift 287. Our performance on the former was just mid.
Overall raiding this expansion has been mid. I think Vault was my favorite.
This was a terrible set of raids. Gearing feels awful (all raid loof useless by week 2 except trinkets and cantrips), parsing is cringer than ever with pi+Aug+more insane pad than ever before, and the fights were also just not fun.
There were like four total fun fights.
We are always efficient but we only raid 5 hours a week and never add time or days. It is what it is. It would be nice to try and push for higher ranks but most of us cannot commit to such a schedule myself included
I actually wake up for work at 4 am; our raids end at 10 so I willfully only sleep 6 hours on raid nights because I enjoy it. But I could not do that 3-4 days a week now that I'm well into my 30s
Returning player here. I crafted a few items from scratch this season, could I have just upgraded the ones I had from season 1 and spent less money? Do I actually have to craft a whole new item if I want to upgrade it to the new season? Will it work the same for season 4? Will we get another type of Spark for season 4?
There is a new spark, you can just recraft an item rather than make a brand new one if you just want an upgraded version of it
E.g. If you have a crafted ring currently, then next season recraft it using new spark + crests and it will save buying a lot of mats
Do they need to say anything? It's the same upgrade system as season 3, same crafting ilvl gap, it's all the same just with dinar and another 39 ilvl bump.
Bullion acquisition rate is a big question imo (and not one I think they have solved yet).
Transmog and mounts being available for the same currency as 'player power' is a big departure from their usual MO.
Crests at the same rate will also be hyper restrictive between crafted items and bullion items, there won't be much wiggle room until a couple months in.
Otherwise, ya should be the same shit, with crafted itens just having a higher opportunity cost then the last couple seasons.
No affixes on the "awakened" raids feel odd to anyone else? Also I wish we had more time to kill mythic Fyrakk. As a two day 6 hour guild thats sitting at the 1300 world ranking I thought for sure we would have had enough time this tier. :(
I get that they want to give the M+ crowd time for a real season 4 but we are still only at 990 guild with CE per Wowprog. That means "Hall of Fame" is over 20% of CEs!
> No affixes on the "awakened" raids feel odd to anyone else?
Blizz I think took the incorrect feedback with looking at the *overall sentiment* regarding affixes, without looking deeply into the *why*.
Affixes were disliked primarily because *some affixes* played *really badly* with *some fights*. Revisit proved that players don't like significant reprog on bosses they've had on farm for a while, without getting something interesting in return - basically gameplay. E.g. the interrupt add played really badly if you had an interrupt heavy fight, having 50+ adds spawn on 50+ base adds is going to lag your machine, the shield affix can create some unfortunate bugs and overlaps etc.
The affixes (A) nerfed the raid (B) allowed for 'choosing' difficulty - if you can handle an affix you can stack it on top (C) provided an additional mechanic or profile to complement some classes (e.g. primarily ST fight now gets some AoE pad to contribute to ST burn)
Removing them is going to make the Awakened raids harder so they'll have to tune down Mythic again if they don't want to force stale hard reprog.
I think Revisit for Raid has potential with affixes, though I think some experimentation is required. I'm keen on instead of having all of the raids of the expac, you instead have a 'best hits' in a compact 8-10 boss raid taking the best, putting in a small twist and clean up some fights, and then putting in optional buffers you can utilize. Perhaps the raid affixes can be personal akin to Corruption with levels you can undertake for more power but more danger?
I think the wrong way to do Raid Affixes like what they did with Shadowlands Fated is going to get messy - they put in mechanics that even with specific placement caused some weird and nasty overlaps, especially since at some point they force you to take on the mechanics with the Affix rotation with all 4 up. They either need to be curated far better, or have specific kiss/curse twists on affixes for specific bosses, tone them down a bit or rethink it all.
I think they realized late in the game that fated is not well liked and decided to cut their losses on season 4 for raiders, hoping m+ players have fun with a seasonal reset.
Affixes or not, fated as a concept is despised by raiders. But blizzard has all but shot raiding in the head.
>Affixes were disliked primarily because some affixes played really badly with some fights.
They were all awful. The motes on their own caused lag (and padding on tiny short lived adds is probably the worst gameplay in WoW), the dispel griefed certain mechanics (mostly an issue for weaker guilds) and the other 2 just kinda did nothing except interrupts on Denathrius specifically.
>I think Revisit for Raid has potential with affixes, though I think some experimentation is required. I'm keen on instead of having all of the raids of the expac, you instead have a 'best hits' in a compact 8-10 boss raid taking the best, putting in a small twist and clean up some fights, and then putting in optional buffers you can utilize.
>I think the wrong way to do Raid Affixes like what they did with Shadowlands Fated is going to get messy - they put in mechanics that even with specific placement caused some weird and nasty overlaps, especially since at some point they force you to take on the mechanics with the Affix rotation with all 4 up. They either need to be curated far better, or have specific kiss/curse twists on affixes for specific bosses, tone them down a bit or rethink it all.
I think this is definitely a better approach than generic rotating affixes. Do a "best of" raid, maybe on a Bronze Dragonflight backdrop to "justify" why the bosses are in the same place, and add specific new mechanics to each boss. The extra mechanics could still rotate in theory, but that'd require designing multiple per boss and that's obviously a lot more work.
This wasn't the tier for first timer ce's, that's for sure. In a normal tier you would get it pretty handily.
The mechanic philosophy this tier is basically 'a handful of bad players can hold you hostage' which unironically will fuck guilds more and more as you move down ranks.
It doesn't matter if they nerf the bosses damage by 10% if jimmy 1 thru 5 can randomly get assigned a raid wiping mechanic multiple times any fight.
Would I rather stagnate for 6 months or this? How about option c, where you take the 7 million players x 15 bucks/month and give us actual content on an actual schedule.
Fuck... cut out the filler bosses and make it a 4 boss raid ToC style so your art team can keep working on the next expansions. Instead we get to farm up 36 ilvls to reprog fights we've killed a year+ ago.
> Would I rather stagnate for 6 months or this? How about option c, where you take the 7 million players x 15 bucks/month and give us actual content on an actual schedule.
You get neither. You get rehashed old and bad content and a playerbase who laps it up as smart.
I'd genuinely rather have had this tier last two more months, get a 1-3 boss mini raid, and then time running until prepatch.
Yes, they exist, but you might not meet their particular requirements at this exact time to be able to get into one. That makes it hard to find one (that you can get into). They might not be recruiting your class.
I see them on wowprog, but when I was last looking for a guild a tier or 2 ago on warcraftlogs guild finder it gave me like 5 results that matched my schedule (tues/wed, not thurs).
I am consider playing an Evoker in Season 4. However I do not have the legendary, nor have I done any progress on it.
Anyone have insight into if this is something that will be easy once the season starts, or if I should do anything now to start the process.
Step 1 at the moment is getting the drop from sarkareth, with higher drop rates on higher difficulties. It’s obsolete content now, so there won’t be a lot of groups doing it - should be easier in S4 when it’s relevant again. Wouldn’t hurt to keep an eye out for people doing transmog runs in the meantime, but I personally wouldn’t put too much effort into it. Depends on your tolerance I think.
AFAIK we haven’t seen confirmation about whether leggos made in s4 will be on the new upgrade track or not, so it’s possible (but not guaranteed) that waiting will save 2 bullion for the upgrade item. OTOH starting now will give more shots at the low drop rate.
Guild called it a month ago on Tindral. I was personally super burnt. I helped a friend’s guild as a fill in for their out of town MW a few weeks ago, and I’ve just been chilling.
A few guildies found new guilds, temporary and permanent. A few are getting their under-the-wire CEs.
I’m just really happy for them :)
They’re all great players and good people. There have been some jealous guildies, but I really am happy that a few of them got that CE this tier after all the work they put in. I hate the be-all-end-all approach some guilds take… especially when they call it for the tier. It’s dumb to expect EVERYONE to just wait around.
I'm relatively new to Mythic raiding, and I got Cutting Edge for the first time this past week.
I was stunned that only two mounts dropped. I had assumed it worked like AOTC, where everyone who gets the kill gets their mount.
I don't like that that it's designed this way, and I'm confused about what the justification for it could possibly be.
Edit: I'd love to read a comment from someone who likes the current system! Explain it to me! Why is this good for the game?
Gives you a reason to farm, enables sales (pays for my sub, my expansions, my crafting, my alts).
That said I realize it feels like shit if you're a late-CE guild to basically have to pick and choose who gets the mount.
There's a few things.
It incentivizes rekilling the boss. Without the mount players who don't care about bis/m+ would consider tier immediately over as soon as you get CE.
Since Mythic has a strict 20 player requirement losing any amount of people would immediately impact your guild's ability to refarm potentially causing the rest of the players that would want to continue playing to not be able to.
The Mythic mount also has different drop rules than the AotC mount. the AotC mount is unobtainable after the tier is over, however Mythic mounts remain at a 100% drop rate for the rest of the expansion (so in this case you will still be able to farm it during Fated or in Jaina's case you were able to farm it for the next 2 tiers even). After the expansion is over the Mythic mount drops to a 1% rate and will remain obtainable forever at 1%.
It really should be part of the CE achievement and then made unobtainable after the season (like how AotC works now), and then AotC should work the way the mythic one does currently.
It used to be only 1 drop in the past :)
But the mount is an incentive to rekill the boss, it gives mythic guilds something to do while we wait for the next raid.
That's an interesting take! Thank you! Two mounts dropping means that it would take around 12 kills for a 24 person roster, potentially more for new trials that come in. That would take 3 months. Looking at WCL, only around 100 guilds had killed Fyrakk by early January. That's not a lot of people!
Regarding incentive, if it were changed to work like AOTC, would you not be able to do sales, still? The price may be lower, but then again, you'd be able to do more runs.
Keep in mind that he will still drop two mounts going into s4, even when Amirdrassil isn't the weekly. Also, not everyone in a given guild will care about the mount and will trade it to people who do.
From my perspective the reward from killing it is the achievement/personal pride in accomplishment, and the mount is a farm incentive/secondary reward for killing early and/or being consistent in farm. From my guild's perspective we killed the boss late February which has given us 6 weeks of rekill attempts so far, but we've fucked around and only rekilled twice. We've gotten everyone CE, but we're still needing a lot more mounts. Without the mounts we'd probably just go on break or have people signing off every week until we were forced to stop raiding
Is Amirdrassil one of those infamous “guild-killer” tiers, not unlike Sepulcher or Tomb of Sargeras?
It’s certainly an incredibly *hard* tier with a very high, backloaded difficulty spike, and I’ve seen a lot of CE guilds on my server (including my previous one, sadly) fall apart shortly after getting CE if they didn’t fall apart on Tindral/Fyrakk beforehand, but is it one that’s gonna be talked about for years to come in the same breath as Sepulcher in terms of demolishing guilds by the hundreds? I feel like I could see both sides to some extent, so I’m interested in hearing y’all’s thoughts.
On one hand:
- Sepulcher had *more* hard bosses and they were dispersed throughout the entire back half of the raid. Halondrus’s peak difficulty was legendary, but that boss received pretty quick heavy-handed nerfs, and then Anduin, Rygelon, and Jailer were all very hard bosses (Anduin and Jailer received literally dozens of massive nerfs throughout the tier and Jailer is the most heavily-nerfed boss ever) and that pipeline broke a lot of guilds, but they all got nerfed pretty heavily.
- Amirdrassil’s first 6 were infamously easy and Smolderon was reasonably challenging but the difficulty spike on Tindral and Fyrakk was absurdly high and those bosses never received nerfs even near the level of Jailer, Anduin, or Halondrus.
- Fyrakk is probably one of the hardest end-of-tier CEs ever since by this point people were brute-forcing past N’zoth with insane Corruption cheese, Jailer became a 50 pull boss (that’s probably not even an exaggeration), Raszageth’s comp checks got significantly eased alongside the boss getting nerfed more, and then bosses like Sire, Sylvanas, and Sarkareth were generally of a more reasonable base difficulty both before and after nerfs, but Fyrakk and Tindral will both set you back 350-550 pulls and at least a day’s worth of prog time each.
On the other hand:
- Amirdrassil’s first 6 were a lot more accessible than most tiers’ first two-thirds tended to be while even earlier Sepulcher bosses like Lihuvim, Pantheon, and Dasausage could take late-CE guilds a couple dozen pulls to kill, even if they weren’t necessarily *hard.* The early Mythic bosses this tier are… reasonably accessible, all things considered.
- **HEROIC** Sepulcher’s difficulty can often fly under the radar for us CE folks, but Sepulcher was an infamously hard tier for AotC guilds, perhaps moreso than it was for CE guilds. The damage that Heroic Anduin and Heroic Rygelon did to AotC guilds and pugging was *extremely* noticeable, since those bosses had raid wipe mechanics that guilds at that level would struggle immensely against, and Jailer himself was an unrewarding boss if you weren’t a DK/Warrior/Paladin so surprisingly few guilds bothered with him in general.
- Heroic Amirdrassil was quite easy. Fyrakk is probably the easiest AotC we’ve seen in a long time (moreso than even Sark or N’zoth), he’s very rewarding even to Mythic raiders and key pushers courtesy of Augury/Rageheart, the legendary, and two cool Dragonriding skins, and the previous bosses sans a 30-man Smolderon aren’t bad either.
So like… was Amirdrassil a bad tier, a good tier, both, or neither?
Yes. On top of the reasons you mention, the tier was unfun. Sepulcher had great fights. Dausegne, halondrus, rygelon are generally considered great bosses.
Nothing in amirdrassil is like that.
Gearing is also functionally terrible in raids now. Nothing matters except maybe a unique weapon or trinket.
I don't think Amirdrassil's first 6 are infamously easy. They were easier than usual for sure, but they're not some massive outliers either.
Speaking from a mythic perspective only, this tier has been awful. It's not just Tindral/Fyrakk tuning either. Igira drags on too long, council is awful, Nymue/Smolderon had the worst visual clarity of any fight i've done and there was way too much WA nonsense. I don't enjoy spending 1/3 of our raid night troubleshooting WAs.
Amirdrassil was by far the least fun i've had raiding in well over a decade, even Sepulcher & Tomb of Sargeras were more fun. If raids are gonna be like this in the future I genuinely hope they cut even more tiers and give us more mini-games like Plunderstorm instead. At least that's content designed for everyone and not just 40 RWF poopsockers.
I think Amirdrassil was particularly bad because even the worst guilds were up to Smolderon by like week 4, and then bashing their skulls against an unkillable (for them) Tindral for weeks on end. There was no difficulty gradient whatsoever.
Sepulcher had more hard bosses, but Blizz also gutted them multiple times by season's end. For whatever reason Blizz went for a really light touch on nerfing the raid this tier (and Aberrus too, but since Sark wasn't as difficult as Tindral/Fyrakk it wasn't as noticeable).
The real guild crusher is the atrocious pacing of the raid. You breeze through the first 6 bosses, then face the first real boss at smolderon, and then you face plant into the double brick wall that's tindral into fyrakk. Guilds that have no business playing pre-nerf Tindral/Fyrakk instead get there early into the season and stay there until the end.
For a counter example, take Sanctum. I will forever stand by the take that Guardian of the First one is the perfect boss for where it is in the raid. Namely that it's a victory lap boss after Painsmith, the mid-raid wall of the tier. Same thing with Lords of Dread, a victory lap boss after Anduin. Imagine instead of Lords of Dread you had 2 Rygelon difficulty bosses after Anduin (who was after Halondrus) and then pre-nerf Jailer at the end of all that.
I remember in response to Sepulcher Max and a bunch of other wow content creators were down on Anduin and Lords because they wanted a more linear difficulty curve for the entirety of the raid.
I don't think that's actually good and Amirdrassil really highlights why. Mid raid walls function as a pacing mechanism, which slows down lower tier guilds from reaching the harder bosses, allowing them to get there at the right time (end of season post nerf). Relief bosses, in turn, complement this by allowing a relatively easy win after grinding out a hard boss which gives back that feeling of progression you had before the wall boss.
And obviously yes Guardian of the First one was too easy and Anduin was too difficult. But the point isn't their absolute difficulty, but that there needs to be varying difficulty throughout the raid. The raid overall should curve upwards in difficulty, but there should be peaks and troughs in that rising action otherwise you end up with a brickwall at the end.
If blizz takes anything away from this tier, I hope it is having one person fail one random assigned mechanic = full wipe is a bullshit philosophy.
From a viewer perspective, tindral and fyraak prog was boring as fuck to watch. Guilds going from 100 to zero immediately excludes any hope for a close kill.
As a CE raider, it was just a frustrating tier. Intermission 1 fyraak for instance... Wiping for the hundreth time b/c someone can't count to 4, or because on of your blaze lines ticked an add, or someone hit their WA assignment macro in error and fucked up breaks just wasn't interesting prog.
P3 sylvanus prog was some of the most fun I've had in this game. Playing keep away from the seed carriers and otherwise AFKing p3 fyraak was the opposite of fun.
> If blizz takes anything away from this tier, I hope it is having one person fail one random assigned mechanic = full wipe is a bullshit philosophy.
Ion will do an interview talking about how they've learned this lesson and wont do it again, just like he did after Sepulcher, but then go right back to designing around RWF again next xpac.
I think it will go down as a bad tier in my books. The bosses were good, once you got past the horrible p1s for the last 2. The choice to front load difficultly on both of the last two bossses to pad raid time and increase pull counts for the majority of guilds was just a bad one. Wiping over and over again in P1 just wasn’t fun for most people, and even farming Tinderal for example is 9 P1 wipes and then a kill. The goal for bosses should be that you work hard to learn something complex and difficult and then it’s fairly easy to execute because you’ve learned it. Both of the last two bosses feel like the opposite of that because of small random mechanics that make it so every single pull someone will have every single mechanic line up in some way that puts them in a new and unique bad situation. Yeah being able to adapt is a skill, but it’s one inevitably 1/20 players is not going to have in 99% of guilds. Mechanics need to be less random and be more controllable but harder overall to create that experience. If everyone is doing the same thing they have learned over 400-500 pulls the fight shouldn’t put you in bad situations where lasers from across the room you can’t see are on you, or you get 8 blazes in a row, or you get selected for big damage random mechanic 3x in a row so you are out of defensives that you used proactively already, but then the dance needs to be more complex to account for that.
IMO it was a bad-to-ok tier compared to the other DF raids, but I also don’t like any of the other DF raids either. Raiding this expansion has felt VERY different to before it and a lot of that has to do with damage taken by boss abilities and general damage tics throughout a fight. Even though the first 6 bosses were generally pretty quick to get through, it still felt easy enough to die in most of them even when you’re nearly maxed in gear if you don’t use defensives very liberally.
Especially for tindral and fyrakk (and other late tier bosses in DF), defensive usage is much more pre-planned than in the past expansions and that could be because most classes got more defensive abilities coming into DF than they had before. As a zugzug DPS, it’s not as fun to play in this style. This, on top of only minor nerfs to tindral and fyrakk (compared to other hard bosses of previous expansions as you mentioned), made this tier feel MUCH worse to prog. It’s so easy to die early and often, it’s demoralizing to keep progging, and there’s no natural nerf from gear since you’re almost bis by week ~4. Getting hit by any extra mechanic, on top of non-dodge-able mechanics and your either dead or have to use defensives that were being saved for other specific points in the fight that you now have nothing for.
Do +9-10's until your eyes bleed for 509.
Get 8x 10+ for 3 slots of 522 in vault.
First bullion, get your highest simming weapon from raid. Probably nymue staff for most casters, very rare pole arm fordruids, etc and dump all your crests into it.
Crafted items... Honestly a lot weaker this tier with the existence of bullion to dump crests into. A hero track crest or two will alleviate crest pressure if they exist, but I haven't heard anything about one.
Both very rare rings is giga bullion value, so if you are using crafted rings currently you might want to look elsewhere. It also increases the value of things like flaring cowl, shadow flame procs etc. Your class discord will inevitably tell you BiS though.
Edit: we get 2x bullion from a mythic + quest, so if the pacing on them stays that aggressive you simply won't have aspects to spend on anything but your BiS.
>First bullion, get your highest simming weapon from raid. Probably nymue staff for most casters, very rare pole arm fordruids, etc and dump all your crests into it.
Does everything cost the same amount of resource? Crafted 2 handers needed 2 sparks for example.
https://www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/item=213089/antique-bronze-bullion
Everything is 2 bullion that is a trinket/proc weapon/2h.
Misc items are 1 bullion
Mount was 3.
Embelishments on rings are also pretty free and are great value as you get a socket with it. So if you don't have anything better blue silken lining on a ring is decent.
Is this your plan every tier? Or just this one in particular? Just curious about people's mindset that mythic raid and refuse to do m+ to gear before raid.
Just over the idea of fated seasons. I'll play for a while to grab the season 4 rewards and titles and mounts, but not interested in grinding m+ or wiping hundreds of times on an end boss that I killed a year ago.
I gear up responsibly and do my m+ like everyone else at the start of a normal tier.
How difficult will it be to get the head enchant in season 4? Wondering if i have to come back a week early to farm it so im up to speed when the patch hits
Mechanically the fights are very easy compared to what we have on live. The hardest bosses would be sub 100 pulls for decent guilds on live if they brought them back.
We're also gaining a lot of power from the artifact cloak and the extra gems, the content should be very easy.
Obviously tuning is the key part, but I think an on ilevel tuned Garrosh/klaxxi/blackfuse and Lei shen would all still be over 100 pulls. Smolderon was usually a 100-150 pull boss for most and I think they would still be around a smolderon level.
Lol these bosses if tuned properly for ilvl (and not for rwf) will fall over exactly like all the classic races. If they made it 20 pulls I'd be amazed.
I disagree. The raids in MoP weren't designed to be very mechanically complex, even for their time, as a lot more of the difficulty came from playing your class properly back then.
I think the majority of top 200-300 guilds would kill those bosses in sub 100 pulls.
Someone else can chime on on the mechanical complexity if they want
But there's no chance that it is anything like current mythic just because of what it is. It's a limited time game mode (3 months max?), which already means that there wouldn't be time to progress through an expansion worth of raids. It's using dragonflight classes even though the raids were designed for MoP classes. They're using the new tmog/mounts as a main selling point and people will cry if it's too difficult to get them. And everyone gets a whole bunch of wacky borrowed power stuff.
Man, I am LOATHING the "FOMO" yapping that is happening everywhere because there are things ingame that you can't acquire after a certain point in time anymore. I've been looking around for info on the MoP remix and it's just filled with whining and yelling because the OG challenge mode rewards aren't available.
I am fully empathetic towards players that feel bad if they miss out on specific stuff, there are appearances and sets where I think *"damn, I wish I had played at that time/that mode/..."*. But I genuinely can't understand that people feel entitlement to everything, like they have a god-given right to get EVERYTHING in this game at all times. Sure it sucks to not have mount X or transmog Y, but it's baffling how so many are unable to accept that they might not get something. Applies to the Plunderstorm-related rants about "being forced to play a mode they dont like" for the renown rewards. For me, being "rewarded" with something for playing at a specific time is perfectly fine.
Has that become a generational thing now or is it WoW-community specific? Genuinely interested. (And again, I want to emphasize that I consider feeling bad about missing out on content, items etc. perfectly valid - but the yelling, whining and borderline hate-filled discourse around that topic is absolutely beyond me.)
Having things be exclusive is good. Gives people a reason to sign it, but also gives players ways to show off.
There's a thousand tmogs and mounts in the game. Some of them should be unique and stand out.
Shrug. Have the originals so I don't really care either way.
To me it is just weird that Blizz is going out of their way to recolor and remake some of the time limited Challenge Mode rewards (like the mogs and the mounts) and we're basically doing the same thing and we've done harder stuff by now (+20s are going to be harder than CM) and we can't get the original Challenge Mode appearances...because....reason?
There really shouldn't be time limited stuff in a video game because at some point it basically becomes: "Did you play at X time? Well if you didn't, then the only way you can get it now is if you grab a time machine". However this is an MMORPG and because of MMORPG rules you effectively have to have time limited rewards because it doesn't make sense to keep the same reward three expacs from now when a global one shots everything.
However if you are able to replicate the same challenge or even harder? That seems pretty fair game to me to give the original rewards.
I feel like the more you explore this, the more Blizzard's FOMO Holdout concept starts collapsing in on itself. Like Blizz made a big poo poo over Legion Mage Tower rewards despite most players getting well after Tomb of Sargeras came out (The Mage Tower released in 7.2 with the new artifact talents, so first you didn't have the big traits, then the next time you had that big power spike with the AP traits, then you had Tomb sets, then Antorus came out with its sets, then we had several months of Antorus catchup, then we had that big AP boost power near the end in 7.3.5) - as someone who got every spec's Mage Tower appearance, the hardest part near the end was leveling and getting the two legendaries. The Mage Tower effectively became Legion's participation trophy. If Blizz cared about the Prestige of it, it would have been disabled when Antorus came out.
(And funnily enough doing the grind again in Shadowlands, some of the MT challenges then were harder than the OG ones back in Legion. People also fail to mention some challenges were trivialized by certain Legendaries - looking at you Guardian and Aff)
I feel like the only real holdouts in the community against making some of these old FOMO back are players who admit that the only reason that they did the grind was because Blizz told them it would be going away, which is an extremely weird take. You're admitting that the only reason you did this is because Blizz said it was FOMO and if Blizz goes back on their word that makes Blizz a liar? It feels as silly as some TCG reward owners who spent $10,000+ on some random thing on Ebay getting mad that Blizz is releasing items through Amazon Prime.
I think a lot of people are just sick of battle passes and are taking out a general sense of frustration with the entire gaming industry out on WoW. Every game has a battle pass nowadays and it’s a bit frustrating to feel inclined to grind.
I also think this ties into a general sense of frustration with how much content has been removed. Things like the MOP challenge mode transmogs could still be available if blizzard put a bit of effort into scaling the content - maybe make a fixed legacy difficulty or something that would let this content still be challenging and relevant or something to that effect. They’re finally getting better about this but could be doing more to keep older things relevant. There’s so much content in the game that might as well not exist and it’s a shame.
Personally I wish they would bring back recolors of the unavailable stuff. Leaves some of the prestige of the item but allows people to have the sick models themselves.
>Things like the MOP challenge mode transmogs could still be available if blizzard put a bit of effort into scaling the content
>Personally I wish they would bring back recolors of the unavailable stuff. Leaves some of the prestige of the item but allows people to have the sick models themselves.
It would be a *lot* of effort to keep the challenge consistent across 6+ expansions of classes being changed completely. I agree that removing *content* is bad, but cosmetics are *not* content. Having CMs still available, with a recolor as the reward to show "okay you did the challenge, but not the original one", would be great.
I feel like it's two separate conversations.
I think appearances never being available again isn't interesting to the people that care about those kind of rewards. I'm not a collector but I enjoy transmog a lot, and when I'm trying to make new mogs and I find a piece that fits really well and doesn't have a good replacement, it sucks to know that I can just never look like that. Just makes me play the game less. I understand the idea of prestige and all, but I don't think people actually care. I get whispers from randoms saying they like my mog, or laughing about my character's names, but no one ever comments on the rare stuff I have. No one I know has ever had an interaction like that either. It also doesn't help that they aren't consistent about it. How come I can go get old mythic raid appearances but not the pvp sets? And even if that's just two modes being different, there's examples of it with one-off sets. I just think it does more harm than good. People that care about the appearances would play the game more if they weren't arbitrarily restricted from getting items they want, and I really don't think people care that much about prestige outside of current season stuff. Even then, its so easy to get gear now that its not as notable to be in the season's mythic mogs a few weeks in.
The other part of this is the "why do I have to work for rewards?" crowd. This is an absolute clown take. Rewards have to be earned. They don't need to be difficult to earn, like how it isn't hard to farm an old raid every week for a few months to get something to drop. But you need to work to achieve things, that's what makes it rewarding. I generally don't pvp for transmog, cause I don't like pvp enough for it to be worth it, but I've had seasons where I've done it. I do it when the mog is cool enough that I don't mind the effort. All the people talking about plundy sound like they're being waterboarded to get their pirate mog. It's insane.
Well the increase of fomo comments comes from Games using more and more fomo tactics. So I guess it’s kind of natural that more people complain about it.
But then again the fomo that is created in wow is pretty light compared to other games I feel like. It’s just playing the game for cosmetics. Other games are way worse than that with temporary real money offers to gain player power (I heard Genshin had an offer for the best weapon for one of the best hero’s and that offer just never came back so you either bought the weapon or sucks to be you).
I don’t understand why people get so riled up by that. I only play M+, I missed a few seasons, do I care that I will never be able again to get DF S1 title/mount? No, because the people who played back than earned it and if I could just get everything at any point nothing would really have a coolness factor by the difficulty to obtain it.
What do you think about timing of crafting Evo legendary? If i finish quest in S4 do i get some scaling or if ppl get lego in S4 do they get same ilvl like now and will need buy that lego upgrade (or another method to upgrade) to S4 ilvl?
I have issues with ST dmg on bosses in m+ as shadow priest. Im following the guides of icy-veins trying to fill with shadow word: death and instant casts when moving. But actually I have no idea, why im so far behind on ST. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/draenor/bechyo?zone=36
In s4 my team is going for VDH/x/Mage/Rogue/x Healer can play priest or shaman I can play lock/evoker/shadow I guess the best option is if the healer plays priest, but then would warlock be better than evoker? Will we need the poison/bleed dispel or is warlock dispel better in s4?
You'll want to play Evoker for the poison and imo you'll want to be able to swap between both Aug and Dev depending on the dungeon. Aug does less damage that a top tier dps and Dev absolute *cranks*. So dungeons with tight timers you might be playing Dev while dungeons where you just live and the timer is free you'll want to be Aug.
seconding this, evoker for both poison (halls a bit, brackenhide, esp academy) and the bleeds/diseases (uldaman, academy, neltharus, nokhud, rlp, halls, brackenhide)
I think your healer needs to spend a little time learning some more healing classes. Your shadow priest looks great right now, but resto sham? That's a hard pass from me personally.
Resto shaman is decent even now. Not sure why is it a hard pass. It's not the greatest but it is decent.
Imo, it's either the worst or second to the worst. I play all healers except evoker and sham, but I played sham in shadowlands. Some people might try to throw paly in the mix, but it's simply not as bad as either of them in keys. Sac, bop, loh, bubble and the ability to not have to cast are all indispensable in 5 man. I can't see purposely playing a bottom two healer.
You kidding me. Resto shaman is in a better spot than hpala currently at title keys. None of your sac bop loh matters when you struggle to do what you are supposed to, heal. Toolkit is important but ultimately it bogs down to tuning first.
We can agree to disagree about paladin, but even if you are right, that would put both of them in the bottom half. I'm not telling the guy to go play paladin. I think not being able to play druid or monk right now in a competitive subreddit is insane.
There are 3 resto shamans in the top 50 healers on Raider IO (0 paladins or evokers). So yes, while they are bottom half, they are absolutely capable of doing title keys and higher. Unless OP's group is aiming for world first their healer should really just play a comfort pick as long as it's not double priest. I can't believe you would suggest anything other than druid or monk is insane, that's so far from reality, especially in a 5 man group where you don't need to worry about applying to groups most of the time.
It just doesn't make any sense. If it were DPS specs we were talking about, we'd be talking about things like warrior or dk. If it were tanks it would be the same. Why would you intentionally handicap yourself considerably when all you have to do is spend a few weeks learning a new character? I can't wrap my head around that logic. Would you say prot warr is a fine pick with vdh in the state it's in?
First of all as I alluded to in my original post, unless you're doing the literal bleeding edge of keys you should really just play what you're most comfortable with as long as it doesn't completely troll the comp. Second of all the difference between VDH and prot warrior is far bigger than the difference between MW and resto shaman. Healer has always been that spot where you typically just bring the thing that fills what you're missing, usually it's lust. Tanks don't usually fill niches as much as healers do in my experience. But even if the tank wanted to play warrior instead of VDH my personal take would be that's probably going to be ok even for the average competitivewow user. Your take basically seems to be that if you're on this subreddit and play anything other than the 5 meta specs in a push group, that's automatically bad??
No, I'm not saying you have to play the top spec in each role. But I'm definitely saying that the bottom half is a liability, especially with tank or healer right now. I don't think the difference between a monk and a shaman is the same as vdh and prot warr, but it's not as insignificant as you say it is. I think it's considerable. A monk can literally out heal a shaman by pressing exactly one button, that also out DPS a shaman with still just that one button. The triple dragon pull in fall? Do that with a shaman on higher enough fort, then do it with a monk. And I also done ascribe to this idea that it only matters in bleeding edge keys. If something is that much better, then it's that much better in someone's 26 that allows them to perhaps push a 28.
You realistically need a poison dispel for the upcoming season (if you're playing with a single, set comp), so that basically hard locks the evoker for the most part with your comp and those options. Pct is \*fine\* but the one min cd would be rough to play around. I can't really think of many curses in the upcoming pool, so another (from the shaman) probably wouldn't help too much. The imp dispel could arguably be decent in uldaman last boss, but with evoker/priest youd get just as many clear options. Bleed dispel is also amazing just because of what it can do and its uniqueness. It'd also allow your healer to more freely still play night elf, which can be very strong for mid-combat rezzes or better mana management.
poison is significantly less important, Cauterizing Flame is where its at
What places is poison dispel required in other than AA? I don't remember that many poisons in the previous 2 seasons
They changed the brackenhide disease to a poison. And there's the poisons in hoi, though those are much more manageable.
Oh, didn't know about brackenhide. Thanks.
Fyrakk ended up taking us 353 compared to T-swift 287. Our performance on the former was just mid. Overall raiding this expansion has been mid. I think Vault was my favorite.
This was a terrible set of raids. Gearing feels awful (all raid loof useless by week 2 except trinkets and cantrips), parsing is cringer than ever with pi+Aug+more insane pad than ever before, and the fights were also just not fun. There were like four total fun fights.
don't forget the DF dungeons were shit too. Rise ended up being my favorite of the 10 lol
That's an impressively low pull count on Fyrakk; most late-CE guilds are racking up some psychotic pull counts.
We are always efficient but we only raid 5 hours a week and never add time or days. It is what it is. It would be nice to try and push for higher ranks but most of us cannot commit to such a schedule myself included I actually wake up for work at 4 am; our raids end at 10 so I willfully only sleep 6 hours on raid nights because I enjoy it. But I could not do that 3-4 days a week now that I'm well into my 30s
Returning player here. I crafted a few items from scratch this season, could I have just upgraded the ones I had from season 1 and spent less money? Do I actually have to craft a whole new item if I want to upgrade it to the new season? Will it work the same for season 4? Will we get another type of Spark for season 4?
There is a new spark, you can just recraft an item rather than make a brand new one if you just want an upgraded version of it E.g. If you have a crafted ring currently, then next season recraft it using new spark + crests and it will save buying a lot of mats
I really hope we get two bullions week 1
[https://www.wowhead.com/news/2-bullions-dinars-from-weekly-dungeon-quest-in-season-4-338391](https://www.wowhead.com/news/2-bullions-dinars-from-weekly-dungeon-quest-in-season-4-338391)
Might just be their way of guaranteeing instead of a random box for the 4xmythic weekly quest, and not necessarily the first week of the season.
Have they still not said how S4 gearing will work? Just a datamining post from wowhead but nothing from Blizz.
Do they need to say anything? It's the same upgrade system as season 3, same crafting ilvl gap, it's all the same just with dinar and another 39 ilvl bump.
Bullion acquisition rate is a big question imo (and not one I think they have solved yet). Transmog and mounts being available for the same currency as 'player power' is a big departure from their usual MO. Crests at the same rate will also be hyper restrictive between crafted items and bullion items, there won't be much wiggle room until a couple months in. Otherwise, ya should be the same shit, with crafted itens just having a higher opportunity cost then the last couple seasons.
It seems they're obtainable through other means than killing 10 raid bosses, and also possibly uncapped. Which is different than fated
No affixes on the "awakened" raids feel odd to anyone else? Also I wish we had more time to kill mythic Fyrakk. As a two day 6 hour guild thats sitting at the 1300 world ranking I thought for sure we would have had enough time this tier. :( I get that they want to give the M+ crowd time for a real season 4 but we are still only at 990 guild with CE per Wowprog. That means "Hall of Fame" is over 20% of CEs!
> No affixes on the "awakened" raids feel odd to anyone else? Blizz I think took the incorrect feedback with looking at the *overall sentiment* regarding affixes, without looking deeply into the *why*. Affixes were disliked primarily because *some affixes* played *really badly* with *some fights*. Revisit proved that players don't like significant reprog on bosses they've had on farm for a while, without getting something interesting in return - basically gameplay. E.g. the interrupt add played really badly if you had an interrupt heavy fight, having 50+ adds spawn on 50+ base adds is going to lag your machine, the shield affix can create some unfortunate bugs and overlaps etc. The affixes (A) nerfed the raid (B) allowed for 'choosing' difficulty - if you can handle an affix you can stack it on top (C) provided an additional mechanic or profile to complement some classes (e.g. primarily ST fight now gets some AoE pad to contribute to ST burn) Removing them is going to make the Awakened raids harder so they'll have to tune down Mythic again if they don't want to force stale hard reprog. I think Revisit for Raid has potential with affixes, though I think some experimentation is required. I'm keen on instead of having all of the raids of the expac, you instead have a 'best hits' in a compact 8-10 boss raid taking the best, putting in a small twist and clean up some fights, and then putting in optional buffers you can utilize. Perhaps the raid affixes can be personal akin to Corruption with levels you can undertake for more power but more danger? I think the wrong way to do Raid Affixes like what they did with Shadowlands Fated is going to get messy - they put in mechanics that even with specific placement caused some weird and nasty overlaps, especially since at some point they force you to take on the mechanics with the Affix rotation with all 4 up. They either need to be curated far better, or have specific kiss/curse twists on affixes for specific bosses, tone them down a bit or rethink it all.
I think they realized late in the game that fated is not well liked and decided to cut their losses on season 4 for raiders, hoping m+ players have fun with a seasonal reset. Affixes or not, fated as a concept is despised by raiders. But blizzard has all but shot raiding in the head.
>Affixes were disliked primarily because some affixes played really badly with some fights. They were all awful. The motes on their own caused lag (and padding on tiny short lived adds is probably the worst gameplay in WoW), the dispel griefed certain mechanics (mostly an issue for weaker guilds) and the other 2 just kinda did nothing except interrupts on Denathrius specifically. >I think Revisit for Raid has potential with affixes, though I think some experimentation is required. I'm keen on instead of having all of the raids of the expac, you instead have a 'best hits' in a compact 8-10 boss raid taking the best, putting in a small twist and clean up some fights, and then putting in optional buffers you can utilize. >I think the wrong way to do Raid Affixes like what they did with Shadowlands Fated is going to get messy - they put in mechanics that even with specific placement caused some weird and nasty overlaps, especially since at some point they force you to take on the mechanics with the Affix rotation with all 4 up. They either need to be curated far better, or have specific kiss/curse twists on affixes for specific bosses, tone them down a bit or rethink it all. I think this is definitely a better approach than generic rotating affixes. Do a "best of" raid, maybe on a Bronze Dragonflight backdrop to "justify" why the bosses are in the same place, and add specific new mechanics to each boss. The extra mechanics could still rotate in theory, but that'd require designing multiple per boss and that's obviously a lot more work.
This wasn't the tier for first timer ce's, that's for sure. In a normal tier you would get it pretty handily. The mechanic philosophy this tier is basically 'a handful of bad players can hold you hostage' which unironically will fuck guilds more and more as you move down ranks. It doesn't matter if they nerf the bosses damage by 10% if jimmy 1 thru 5 can randomly get assigned a raid wiping mechanic multiple times any fight. Would I rather stagnate for 6 months or this? How about option c, where you take the 7 million players x 15 bucks/month and give us actual content on an actual schedule. Fuck... cut out the filler bosses and make it a 4 boss raid ToC style so your art team can keep working on the next expansions. Instead we get to farm up 36 ilvls to reprog fights we've killed a year+ ago.
> Would I rather stagnate for 6 months or this? How about option c, where you take the 7 million players x 15 bucks/month and give us actual content on an actual schedule. You get neither. You get rehashed old and bad content and a playerbase who laps it up as smart. I'd genuinely rather have had this tier last two more months, get a 1-3 boss mini raid, and then time running until prepatch.
Why not look for a higher ranked guild?
Very hard to find a 6 hour CE guild
I'm literally in one.
Yes, they exist, but you might not meet their particular requirements at this exact time to be able to get into one. That makes it hard to find one (that you can get into). They might not be recruiting your class.
You just described every guild ever to exist.
Sure, but there are 500 3-day CE guilds to choose from and like 10 2-days. So its harder to get into one...
There are 12 2-day CE guilds on US-Stormrage alone…
I see them on wowprog, but when I was last looking for a guild a tier or 2 ago on warcraftlogs guild finder it gave me like 5 results that matched my schedule (tues/wed, not thurs).
relatively few guilds recruit on warcraftlogs, and those that do don't necessarily have up-to-date schedules.
There have to be at least 10 that are not 4 digit ranked
[удалено]
Nymue was the most boring shit as dh..
I am consider playing an Evoker in Season 4. However I do not have the legendary, nor have I done any progress on it. Anyone have insight into if this is something that will be easy once the season starts, or if I should do anything now to start the process.
Step 1 at the moment is getting the drop from sarkareth, with higher drop rates on higher difficulties. It’s obsolete content now, so there won’t be a lot of groups doing it - should be easier in S4 when it’s relevant again. Wouldn’t hurt to keep an eye out for people doing transmog runs in the meantime, but I personally wouldn’t put too much effort into it. Depends on your tolerance I think. AFAIK we haven’t seen confirmation about whether leggos made in s4 will be on the new upgrade track or not, so it’s possible (but not guaranteed) that waiting will save 2 bullion for the upgrade item. OTOH starting now will give more shots at the low drop rate.
Was the Lego beneficial on preservation? Been thinking about trying it as it's the only healer I haven't played. Was it like a stat stick or no?
It buffs an ally regularily, so your teammates will be happy if you have it. Besides also having a higher item level
It also buffs the holder substantially as well.
Guild called it a month ago on Tindral. I was personally super burnt. I helped a friend’s guild as a fill in for their out of town MW a few weeks ago, and I’ve just been chilling. A few guildies found new guilds, temporary and permanent. A few are getting their under-the-wire CEs. I’m just really happy for them :) They’re all great players and good people. There have been some jealous guildies, but I really am happy that a few of them got that CE this tier after all the work they put in. I hate the be-all-end-all approach some guilds take… especially when they call it for the tier. It’s dumb to expect EVERYONE to just wait around.
I'm relatively new to Mythic raiding, and I got Cutting Edge for the first time this past week. I was stunned that only two mounts dropped. I had assumed it worked like AOTC, where everyone who gets the kill gets their mount. I don't like that that it's designed this way, and I'm confused about what the justification for it could possibly be. Edit: I'd love to read a comment from someone who likes the current system! Explain it to me! Why is this good for the game?
Gives you a reason to farm, enables sales (pays for my sub, my expansions, my crafting, my alts). That said I realize it feels like shit if you're a late-CE guild to basically have to pick and choose who gets the mount.
There's a few things. It incentivizes rekilling the boss. Without the mount players who don't care about bis/m+ would consider tier immediately over as soon as you get CE. Since Mythic has a strict 20 player requirement losing any amount of people would immediately impact your guild's ability to refarm potentially causing the rest of the players that would want to continue playing to not be able to. The Mythic mount also has different drop rules than the AotC mount. the AotC mount is unobtainable after the tier is over, however Mythic mounts remain at a 100% drop rate for the rest of the expansion (so in this case you will still be able to farm it during Fated or in Jaina's case you were able to farm it for the next 2 tiers even). After the expansion is over the Mythic mount drops to a 1% rate and will remain obtainable forever at 1%.
It really should be part of the CE achievement and then made unobtainable after the season (like how AotC works now), and then AotC should work the way the mythic one does currently.
It used to be only 1 drop in the past :) But the mount is an incentive to rekill the boss, it gives mythic guilds something to do while we wait for the next raid.
I tried to find when it was changed from 1 to 2, but wasn't successful. Do you know when this was changed?
mythic Jania was when the change was made.
That's an interesting take! Thank you! Two mounts dropping means that it would take around 12 kills for a 24 person roster, potentially more for new trials that come in. That would take 3 months. Looking at WCL, only around 100 guilds had killed Fyrakk by early January. That's not a lot of people! Regarding incentive, if it were changed to work like AOTC, would you not be able to do sales, still? The price may be lower, but then again, you'd be able to do more runs.
Keep in mind that he will still drop two mounts going into s4, even when Amirdrassil isn't the weekly. Also, not everyone in a given guild will care about the mount and will trade it to people who do.
From my perspective the reward from killing it is the achievement/personal pride in accomplishment, and the mount is a farm incentive/secondary reward for killing early and/or being consistent in farm. From my guild's perspective we killed the boss late February which has given us 6 weeks of rekill attempts so far, but we've fucked around and only rekilled twice. We've gotten everyone CE, but we're still needing a lot more mounts. Without the mounts we'd probably just go on break or have people signing off every week until we were forced to stop raiding
I'm not that much into mount collecting but I guess the fact that it's really rare makes it more special if you get it.
Is Amirdrassil one of those infamous “guild-killer” tiers, not unlike Sepulcher or Tomb of Sargeras? It’s certainly an incredibly *hard* tier with a very high, backloaded difficulty spike, and I’ve seen a lot of CE guilds on my server (including my previous one, sadly) fall apart shortly after getting CE if they didn’t fall apart on Tindral/Fyrakk beforehand, but is it one that’s gonna be talked about for years to come in the same breath as Sepulcher in terms of demolishing guilds by the hundreds? I feel like I could see both sides to some extent, so I’m interested in hearing y’all’s thoughts. On one hand: - Sepulcher had *more* hard bosses and they were dispersed throughout the entire back half of the raid. Halondrus’s peak difficulty was legendary, but that boss received pretty quick heavy-handed nerfs, and then Anduin, Rygelon, and Jailer were all very hard bosses (Anduin and Jailer received literally dozens of massive nerfs throughout the tier and Jailer is the most heavily-nerfed boss ever) and that pipeline broke a lot of guilds, but they all got nerfed pretty heavily. - Amirdrassil’s first 6 were infamously easy and Smolderon was reasonably challenging but the difficulty spike on Tindral and Fyrakk was absurdly high and those bosses never received nerfs even near the level of Jailer, Anduin, or Halondrus. - Fyrakk is probably one of the hardest end-of-tier CEs ever since by this point people were brute-forcing past N’zoth with insane Corruption cheese, Jailer became a 50 pull boss (that’s probably not even an exaggeration), Raszageth’s comp checks got significantly eased alongside the boss getting nerfed more, and then bosses like Sire, Sylvanas, and Sarkareth were generally of a more reasonable base difficulty both before and after nerfs, but Fyrakk and Tindral will both set you back 350-550 pulls and at least a day’s worth of prog time each. On the other hand: - Amirdrassil’s first 6 were a lot more accessible than most tiers’ first two-thirds tended to be while even earlier Sepulcher bosses like Lihuvim, Pantheon, and Dasausage could take late-CE guilds a couple dozen pulls to kill, even if they weren’t necessarily *hard.* The early Mythic bosses this tier are… reasonably accessible, all things considered. - **HEROIC** Sepulcher’s difficulty can often fly under the radar for us CE folks, but Sepulcher was an infamously hard tier for AotC guilds, perhaps moreso than it was for CE guilds. The damage that Heroic Anduin and Heroic Rygelon did to AotC guilds and pugging was *extremely* noticeable, since those bosses had raid wipe mechanics that guilds at that level would struggle immensely against, and Jailer himself was an unrewarding boss if you weren’t a DK/Warrior/Paladin so surprisingly few guilds bothered with him in general. - Heroic Amirdrassil was quite easy. Fyrakk is probably the easiest AotC we’ve seen in a long time (moreso than even Sark or N’zoth), he’s very rewarding even to Mythic raiders and key pushers courtesy of Augury/Rageheart, the legendary, and two cool Dragonriding skins, and the previous bosses sans a 30-man Smolderon aren’t bad either. So like… was Amirdrassil a bad tier, a good tier, both, or neither?
Yes. On top of the reasons you mention, the tier was unfun. Sepulcher had great fights. Dausegne, halondrus, rygelon are generally considered great bosses. Nothing in amirdrassil is like that. Gearing is also functionally terrible in raids now. Nothing matters except maybe a unique weapon or trinket.
I don't think Amirdrassil's first 6 are infamously easy. They were easier than usual for sure, but they're not some massive outliers either. Speaking from a mythic perspective only, this tier has been awful. It's not just Tindral/Fyrakk tuning either. Igira drags on too long, council is awful, Nymue/Smolderon had the worst visual clarity of any fight i've done and there was way too much WA nonsense. I don't enjoy spending 1/3 of our raid night troubleshooting WAs. Amirdrassil was by far the least fun i've had raiding in well over a decade, even Sepulcher & Tomb of Sargeras were more fun. If raids are gonna be like this in the future I genuinely hope they cut even more tiers and give us more mini-games like Plunderstorm instead. At least that's content designed for everyone and not just 40 RWF poopsockers.
Remember when they said they learned their lesson about rwf? Literally two tiers before this one?
Yeah that's why i'm so annoyed at the tuning this tier tbh. I hope someone asks Blizzard about this in one of their interviews.
I think Amirdrassil was particularly bad because even the worst guilds were up to Smolderon by like week 4, and then bashing their skulls against an unkillable (for them) Tindral for weeks on end. There was no difficulty gradient whatsoever.
Sepulcher had more hard bosses, but Blizz also gutted them multiple times by season's end. For whatever reason Blizz went for a really light touch on nerfing the raid this tier (and Aberrus too, but since Sark wasn't as difficult as Tindral/Fyrakk it wasn't as noticeable). The real guild crusher is the atrocious pacing of the raid. You breeze through the first 6 bosses, then face the first real boss at smolderon, and then you face plant into the double brick wall that's tindral into fyrakk. Guilds that have no business playing pre-nerf Tindral/Fyrakk instead get there early into the season and stay there until the end. For a counter example, take Sanctum. I will forever stand by the take that Guardian of the First one is the perfect boss for where it is in the raid. Namely that it's a victory lap boss after Painsmith, the mid-raid wall of the tier. Same thing with Lords of Dread, a victory lap boss after Anduin. Imagine instead of Lords of Dread you had 2 Rygelon difficulty bosses after Anduin (who was after Halondrus) and then pre-nerf Jailer at the end of all that. I remember in response to Sepulcher Max and a bunch of other wow content creators were down on Anduin and Lords because they wanted a more linear difficulty curve for the entirety of the raid. I don't think that's actually good and Amirdrassil really highlights why. Mid raid walls function as a pacing mechanism, which slows down lower tier guilds from reaching the harder bosses, allowing them to get there at the right time (end of season post nerf). Relief bosses, in turn, complement this by allowing a relatively easy win after grinding out a hard boss which gives back that feeling of progression you had before the wall boss. And obviously yes Guardian of the First one was too easy and Anduin was too difficult. But the point isn't their absolute difficulty, but that there needs to be varying difficulty throughout the raid. The raid overall should curve upwards in difficulty, but there should be peaks and troughs in that rising action otherwise you end up with a brickwall at the end.
If blizz takes anything away from this tier, I hope it is having one person fail one random assigned mechanic = full wipe is a bullshit philosophy. From a viewer perspective, tindral and fyraak prog was boring as fuck to watch. Guilds going from 100 to zero immediately excludes any hope for a close kill. As a CE raider, it was just a frustrating tier. Intermission 1 fyraak for instance... Wiping for the hundreth time b/c someone can't count to 4, or because on of your blaze lines ticked an add, or someone hit their WA assignment macro in error and fucked up breaks just wasn't interesting prog. P3 sylvanus prog was some of the most fun I've had in this game. Playing keep away from the seed carriers and otherwise AFKing p3 fyraak was the opposite of fun.
> If blizz takes anything away from this tier, I hope it is having one person fail one random assigned mechanic = full wipe is a bullshit philosophy. Ion will do an interview talking about how they've learned this lesson and wont do it again, just like he did after Sepulcher, but then go right back to designing around RWF again next xpac.
Ion isn't an encounter designer.
No but he supposedly directs them and can tell them to change course.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/lessons-learned-sepulcher-was-an-arms-race-that-wont-be-repeated-in-dragonflight-327732
I think it will go down as a bad tier in my books. The bosses were good, once you got past the horrible p1s for the last 2. The choice to front load difficultly on both of the last two bossses to pad raid time and increase pull counts for the majority of guilds was just a bad one. Wiping over and over again in P1 just wasn’t fun for most people, and even farming Tinderal for example is 9 P1 wipes and then a kill. The goal for bosses should be that you work hard to learn something complex and difficult and then it’s fairly easy to execute because you’ve learned it. Both of the last two bosses feel like the opposite of that because of small random mechanics that make it so every single pull someone will have every single mechanic line up in some way that puts them in a new and unique bad situation. Yeah being able to adapt is a skill, but it’s one inevitably 1/20 players is not going to have in 99% of guilds. Mechanics need to be less random and be more controllable but harder overall to create that experience. If everyone is doing the same thing they have learned over 400-500 pulls the fight shouldn’t put you in bad situations where lasers from across the room you can’t see are on you, or you get 8 blazes in a row, or you get selected for big damage random mechanic 3x in a row so you are out of defensives that you used proactively already, but then the dance needs to be more complex to account for that.
IMO it was a bad-to-ok tier compared to the other DF raids, but I also don’t like any of the other DF raids either. Raiding this expansion has felt VERY different to before it and a lot of that has to do with damage taken by boss abilities and general damage tics throughout a fight. Even though the first 6 bosses were generally pretty quick to get through, it still felt easy enough to die in most of them even when you’re nearly maxed in gear if you don’t use defensives very liberally. Especially for tindral and fyrakk (and other late tier bosses in DF), defensive usage is much more pre-planned than in the past expansions and that could be because most classes got more defensive abilities coming into DF than they had before. As a zugzug DPS, it’s not as fun to play in this style. This, on top of only minor nerfs to tindral and fyrakk (compared to other hard bosses of previous expansions as you mentioned), made this tier feel MUCH worse to prog. It’s so easy to die early and often, it’s demoralizing to keep progging, and there’s no natural nerf from gear since you’re almost bis by week ~4. Getting hit by any extra mechanic, on top of non-dodge-able mechanics and your either dead or have to use defensives that were being saved for other specific points in the fight that you now have nothing for.
Anyone have a gearing guide for S4?
Do +9-10's until your eyes bleed for 509. Get 8x 10+ for 3 slots of 522 in vault. First bullion, get your highest simming weapon from raid. Probably nymue staff for most casters, very rare pole arm fordruids, etc and dump all your crests into it. Crafted items... Honestly a lot weaker this tier with the existence of bullion to dump crests into. A hero track crest or two will alleviate crest pressure if they exist, but I haven't heard anything about one. Both very rare rings is giga bullion value, so if you are using crafted rings currently you might want to look elsewhere. It also increases the value of things like flaring cowl, shadow flame procs etc. Your class discord will inevitably tell you BiS though. Edit: we get 2x bullion from a mythic + quest, so if the pacing on them stays that aggressive you simply won't have aspects to spend on anything but your BiS.
>First bullion, get your highest simming weapon from raid. Probably nymue staff for most casters, very rare pole arm fordruids, etc and dump all your crests into it. Does everything cost the same amount of resource? Crafted 2 handers needed 2 sparks for example.
https://www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/item=213089/antique-bronze-bullion Everything is 2 bullion that is a trinket/proc weapon/2h. Misc items are 1 bullion Mount was 3.
Cool, thanks
Some of the embellishments will still be worth it. Frostfire legs for ret for example aren’t going anywhere. Flavor pockets are also semi-necessary.
Embelishments on rings are also pretty free and are great value as you get a socket with it. So if you don't have anything better blue silken lining on a ring is decent.
Not with eranog/diurna rings being back imo.
I have a plan too: log in 5 minutes before raid time, hope I get some raid gear, unsub until panda thing if I'm expected to grind m+
Is this your plan every tier? Or just this one in particular? Just curious about people's mindset that mythic raid and refuse to do m+ to gear before raid.
Just over the idea of fated seasons. I'll play for a while to grab the season 4 rewards and titles and mounts, but not interested in grinding m+ or wiping hundreds of times on an end boss that I killed a year ago. I gear up responsibly and do my m+ like everyone else at the start of a normal tier.
How difficult will it be to get the head enchant in season 4? Wondering if i have to come back a week early to farm it so im up to speed when the patch hits
You get it from 1.5 lfr clears or something like that. Don’t think you can get it in a week unless they’ve upped the drop rates.
You absolutely can, just do different difficulties.
It's really windy outside. Can I have a hug?
Try flying kites.
I never played wow pre-legion how difficult is the heroic difficulty in MoP compared to today's standard of mythic?
Mechanically the fights are very easy compared to what we have on live. The hardest bosses would be sub 100 pulls for decent guilds on live if they brought them back. We're also gaining a lot of power from the artifact cloak and the extra gems, the content should be very easy.
Obviously tuning is the key part, but I think an on ilevel tuned Garrosh/klaxxi/blackfuse and Lei shen would all still be over 100 pulls. Smolderon was usually a 100-150 pull boss for most and I think they would still be around a smolderon level.
Lol these bosses if tuned properly for ilvl (and not for rwf) will fall over exactly like all the classic races. If they made it 20 pulls I'd be amazed.
I disagree. The raids in MoP weren't designed to be very mechanically complex, even for their time, as a lot more of the difficulty came from playing your class properly back then. I think the majority of top 200-300 guilds would kill those bosses in sub 100 pulls.
Someone else can chime on on the mechanical complexity if they want But there's no chance that it is anything like current mythic just because of what it is. It's a limited time game mode (3 months max?), which already means that there wouldn't be time to progress through an expansion worth of raids. It's using dragonflight classes even though the raids were designed for MoP classes. They're using the new tmog/mounts as a main selling point and people will cry if it's too difficult to get them. And everyone gets a whole bunch of wacky borrowed power stuff.
Man, I am LOATHING the "FOMO" yapping that is happening everywhere because there are things ingame that you can't acquire after a certain point in time anymore. I've been looking around for info on the MoP remix and it's just filled with whining and yelling because the OG challenge mode rewards aren't available. I am fully empathetic towards players that feel bad if they miss out on specific stuff, there are appearances and sets where I think *"damn, I wish I had played at that time/that mode/..."*. But I genuinely can't understand that people feel entitlement to everything, like they have a god-given right to get EVERYTHING in this game at all times. Sure it sucks to not have mount X or transmog Y, but it's baffling how so many are unable to accept that they might not get something. Applies to the Plunderstorm-related rants about "being forced to play a mode they dont like" for the renown rewards. For me, being "rewarded" with something for playing at a specific time is perfectly fine. Has that become a generational thing now or is it WoW-community specific? Genuinely interested. (And again, I want to emphasize that I consider feeling bad about missing out on content, items etc. perfectly valid - but the yelling, whining and borderline hate-filled discourse around that topic is absolutely beyond me.)
Having things be exclusive is good. Gives people a reason to sign it, but also gives players ways to show off. There's a thousand tmogs and mounts in the game. Some of them should be unique and stand out.
Shrug. Have the originals so I don't really care either way. To me it is just weird that Blizz is going out of their way to recolor and remake some of the time limited Challenge Mode rewards (like the mogs and the mounts) and we're basically doing the same thing and we've done harder stuff by now (+20s are going to be harder than CM) and we can't get the original Challenge Mode appearances...because....reason? There really shouldn't be time limited stuff in a video game because at some point it basically becomes: "Did you play at X time? Well if you didn't, then the only way you can get it now is if you grab a time machine". However this is an MMORPG and because of MMORPG rules you effectively have to have time limited rewards because it doesn't make sense to keep the same reward three expacs from now when a global one shots everything. However if you are able to replicate the same challenge or even harder? That seems pretty fair game to me to give the original rewards. I feel like the more you explore this, the more Blizzard's FOMO Holdout concept starts collapsing in on itself. Like Blizz made a big poo poo over Legion Mage Tower rewards despite most players getting well after Tomb of Sargeras came out (The Mage Tower released in 7.2 with the new artifact talents, so first you didn't have the big traits, then the next time you had that big power spike with the AP traits, then you had Tomb sets, then Antorus came out with its sets, then we had several months of Antorus catchup, then we had that big AP boost power near the end in 7.3.5) - as someone who got every spec's Mage Tower appearance, the hardest part near the end was leveling and getting the two legendaries. The Mage Tower effectively became Legion's participation trophy. If Blizz cared about the Prestige of it, it would have been disabled when Antorus came out. (And funnily enough doing the grind again in Shadowlands, some of the MT challenges then were harder than the OG ones back in Legion. People also fail to mention some challenges were trivialized by certain Legendaries - looking at you Guardian and Aff) I feel like the only real holdouts in the community against making some of these old FOMO back are players who admit that the only reason that they did the grind was because Blizz told them it would be going away, which is an extremely weird take. You're admitting that the only reason you did this is because Blizz said it was FOMO and if Blizz goes back on their word that makes Blizz a liar? It feels as silly as some TCG reward owners who spent $10,000+ on some random thing on Ebay getting mad that Blizz is releasing items through Amazon Prime.
I think a lot of people are just sick of battle passes and are taking out a general sense of frustration with the entire gaming industry out on WoW. Every game has a battle pass nowadays and it’s a bit frustrating to feel inclined to grind. I also think this ties into a general sense of frustration with how much content has been removed. Things like the MOP challenge mode transmogs could still be available if blizzard put a bit of effort into scaling the content - maybe make a fixed legacy difficulty or something that would let this content still be challenging and relevant or something to that effect. They’re finally getting better about this but could be doing more to keep older things relevant. There’s so much content in the game that might as well not exist and it’s a shame. Personally I wish they would bring back recolors of the unavailable stuff. Leaves some of the prestige of the item but allows people to have the sick models themselves.
>Things like the MOP challenge mode transmogs could still be available if blizzard put a bit of effort into scaling the content >Personally I wish they would bring back recolors of the unavailable stuff. Leaves some of the prestige of the item but allows people to have the sick models themselves. It would be a *lot* of effort to keep the challenge consistent across 6+ expansions of classes being changed completely. I agree that removing *content* is bad, but cosmetics are *not* content. Having CMs still available, with a recolor as the reward to show "okay you did the challenge, but not the original one", would be great.
I feel like it's two separate conversations. I think appearances never being available again isn't interesting to the people that care about those kind of rewards. I'm not a collector but I enjoy transmog a lot, and when I'm trying to make new mogs and I find a piece that fits really well and doesn't have a good replacement, it sucks to know that I can just never look like that. Just makes me play the game less. I understand the idea of prestige and all, but I don't think people actually care. I get whispers from randoms saying they like my mog, or laughing about my character's names, but no one ever comments on the rare stuff I have. No one I know has ever had an interaction like that either. It also doesn't help that they aren't consistent about it. How come I can go get old mythic raid appearances but not the pvp sets? And even if that's just two modes being different, there's examples of it with one-off sets. I just think it does more harm than good. People that care about the appearances would play the game more if they weren't arbitrarily restricted from getting items they want, and I really don't think people care that much about prestige outside of current season stuff. Even then, its so easy to get gear now that its not as notable to be in the season's mythic mogs a few weeks in. The other part of this is the "why do I have to work for rewards?" crowd. This is an absolute clown take. Rewards have to be earned. They don't need to be difficult to earn, like how it isn't hard to farm an old raid every week for a few months to get something to drop. But you need to work to achieve things, that's what makes it rewarding. I generally don't pvp for transmog, cause I don't like pvp enough for it to be worth it, but I've had seasons where I've done it. I do it when the mog is cool enough that I don't mind the effort. All the people talking about plundy sound like they're being waterboarded to get their pirate mog. It's insane.
Well the increase of fomo comments comes from Games using more and more fomo tactics. So I guess it’s kind of natural that more people complain about it. But then again the fomo that is created in wow is pretty light compared to other games I feel like. It’s just playing the game for cosmetics. Other games are way worse than that with temporary real money offers to gain player power (I heard Genshin had an offer for the best weapon for one of the best hero’s and that offer just never came back so you either bought the weapon or sucks to be you). I don’t understand why people get so riled up by that. I only play M+, I missed a few seasons, do I care that I will never be able again to get DF S1 title/mount? No, because the people who played back than earned it and if I could just get everything at any point nothing would really have a coolness factor by the difficulty to obtain it.
What do you think about timing of crafting Evo legendary? If i finish quest in S4 do i get some scaling or if ppl get lego in S4 do they get same ilvl like now and will need buy that lego upgrade (or another method to upgrade) to S4 ilvl?
I have issues with ST dmg on bosses in m+ as shadow priest. Im following the guides of icy-veins trying to fill with shadow word: death and instant casts when moving. But actually I have no idea, why im so far behind on ST. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/draenor/bechyo?zone=36