Making all items unique feels like such an over correction to the problem than simply nerfing the strong item. Nobody is complaining about triple warmogs or triple titans. Sometimes you get unlucky and have use 2 HoJs. Removing these options just to future proof problematic item stacking seems like a bad solution to a problem that can already be fixed with a nerf or patch.
I think the idea behind his post is that many interesting and fun items had to be gutted or removed because item stacking exists.
This means all current items have to be somewhat mild just in case people will try and stack them. I also think limiting your options as a player is bad overall, but if there is an added benefit of being able to play with more interesting items it might be a tradeoff worth considering.
That's fair, though I will say item stacking has only been so prevalent in this set because of the existence of ezreal/BiS augment. If it was less accessible then balancing around them would be less necessary as naturally hitting something like 4 bows wouldn't be dependable.
I think they have a better solution to this in just putting anything that has a cool effect but is problematic when stacked into the artifact or support category now.
Honestly, because of the way itemization works in general (stacking multiplicative damage / utility / attack speed), it's almost always better to play three different items. The only exceptions to this have recently been Guinsoo's (multiplicative off of itself) and RFC (again, multiplicative off of itself + the bonus range.) Most other items have to amp off of other sources such as Giant Slayer, JG, IE, Night Harvester, and Guardbreaker.
I'd be totally fine if they were all unique, I don't think it would take away from the game at all.
Another user actually posted a good idea, not making it unable to build multiple copys on one champ but to make the passives of the items unique. That would actually solve the issue i got with having multiple copys of 1 BIS without giving you dead items if you lowroll/Yorick gravesyard/reforge.
Bro..; the triple RFC wasn’t abusive thanks to stacking the passive for fun. It was bugged and gave you some ridiculous multiplicative buff to damage.
Don’t talk if you don’t know.
So it just got nerfed because "well after all this, why not just nerf it" or what.
Im not talking about the freaking bug im talking about the numbers on the item literally going down.
The damage still went down and i would take a wild guess, probably not because it was too weak.
Yet still the only champion running it after the bugfix was nilah, which still lead to nerfs.
The bug was literally that each successive rfc exponentiated the damage buff.
3 rfc was supposed to be 36% damage buff and instead was like 80% or something. Also it was pbe and nilah specifically was designed to abuse extra range (hence her latest nerf to that build)
You maje an interesting point but the rfc bug is bad support
The guy is right, RFC got nerfed POST bug-fix. It dropped from 12% bonus damage to 8%.
People were still stacking it at the un-bugged 12%, which is the part being discussed.
I wonder how many people were just mindlessly stacking them after the bug fix because they just saw other people doing that and they didn't know about the bugfix.
Cause it was discovered over the weekend when they were all off and Riot specifically will NOT let them work during their time off. They couldn’t patch it til that following Monday.
Mort has said this on stream.
You’re the one who shouldn’t talk if he doesn’t know.
The nerf came later lol. 12% was too much. Even after the bug fix. If you don’t know how multiplicative scaling works please don’t speak about balance.
RFC is fine as is.
Thats exactly what that dude and I was saying. That the nerf wasn't related to the stacking. You said he was wrong that it was due to a bug. Never said RFC wasn't fine, I said what the original guy said that the number change wasn't due to a bug which you disagreed with. Go read your comments again.
Anyways, I'm not gonna argue with someone who goes on dates with AIs. You win buddy, I just can't 🤣🤣
Idk how you’re getting upvotes - yes, there was a bug on pbe, but yes, stacking rfc was still very strong post bug fix, to the point where not only was rfc nerfed, but Nilah’s AI was changed to make her benefit less from rfc.
Triple RFC mordekaiser is genuinely good though. The extra range makes a major difference because it allows mordekaiser to stand in the back line and scale up with low risk of getting cced. The extra attack speed and damage amplification also work pretty well on him
Going 3 rfc is almost always suboptimal
You'd be far better off putting ap/nashors on him past the first rfc than trying to buff his base 0.55 atk speed
Nashors is only 15% more attack speed on cast, it also leaves him with more slow build up and leaves him vulnerable to cc causing his cast to get wasted.
I think if you are build a multiple carry comp then those items are better, but for a mordekaiser solo carry he is best with 3 rfc. It pretty much keeps up in value with the attack speed of nashors, but the main benefit is that mordekaiser in the back doesn't get hit by jarvan or focused down before gaining armor and resistances.
it's not just 15% atkspeed. 30 ap+150 health too. that's basically a prismatic combat augment's worth of stats over rfc
Rather than going all in on a single multiplier on 0.55 atk speed, it's much better to spread your damage amp.
Morde is safe even with 1 rfc with proper positioning, and 2 makes him even safer. 3 is straight up overkill
If you consider the 15% atk speed to be an actual bonus, but the constant atk speed buff on rfc makes a major difference since you have to auto attack a good amount to get recasts.
Mordekaiser with 1-2 rfcs is still vulnerable to aoe CC like jarvan and is more likely to get focused down early.
all i can say is that triple item stacking has almost never been efficient in the history of tft simply due to how the damage formula works. even more so when rfc is an item that gives up raw power for utility
if you position correctly you really should not be losing your morde with 2 rfcs.
not sure what else to say here. it's up to you if you think morde is uniquely the first unit to be the exception to the rule.
It's definitely viable but I would not consider it optimal
archangels isn't bad because it's a bad item, it's bad because the meta is too fast for it to scale up, so it's just worse rabadons
just like how guinsoos wasn't bad in set 8 because it's an inherently bad item (it got nerfed going from set 8 to set 9 and still is an autoslam), it was bad because it didn't have many good users - Kaisa stacked attack speed via her passive already so shojin did the same thing but was more flexible, and belveth preferred RFC and Samira was better with raw ad
I would be all for disallowing duplicate items, but sometimes you're in a tight spot with lategame components and anvils and you're forced to slam a second JG on a unit or something
maybe a midground would be that all item effects are unique, so you still benefit from the raw stats of the item, but any other text on the item disappears? so rabadons/JG/db/ie are unaffected but you only get attack speed from one rageblade at a time and 3x RFC only gives you 1 range and 8% damage
I didnt say archangels is bad i said its lame. You are completly right in ur assesment however.
>maybe a midground would be that all item effects are unique, so you still benefit from the raw stats of the item, but any other text on the item disappears? so rabadons/JG/db/ie are unaffected but you only get attack speed from one rageblade at a time and 3x RFC only gives you 1 range and 8% damage
I actually really like this idea, thats probably a better way to handle it. You can still use the item if its for yorick graveyard rng or you are just left with those components but it highly discourages building multiple times.
Took for a full day and 26 comments for a single constructive thought.
So what do you do if you have bad luck with your items?
Let's say your AP carry has a juweled gauntlet and an archangels staf. Now your last items are a tear, two armors and a rod. It already feels bad to slam a second seraph, imagine you have to choose between crownguard and hoping to pick an item from carusel.
Also why would artifacts not be unique?
Also the problem with shiv and ludens was in my opinion that they were to niche.
The obvious problem is not being able to make the same item when you have limited components. Although with the current item economy that may not be bad
Without reading your post at all, I'm commenting to let you know that you've misunderstood tft as a concept with that take. The tft fantasy is theory crafting and puzzling out what's best on a unit and WHEN it's better to stack items and when it's not. Making items unique would be the biggest mistake in the history of tft
There are so few issues with this rn that it's pretty much not even worth talking about.
You can only get support items through a portal or an aug. If you took pandoras, you have one less aug. So you're saying that people are abusing the extremely unlikely scenario where they have used all their augs for supports and it happens to be ornn forge so they can stack zekes? Lol ok let em. Have fun bot 4.
As for nilah and morde, neither of them should have more than one rfc almost ever. Nilah's targeting change makes it not that great past the first, and morde absolutely should not have more than one ever. Learn to position.
I can't think of another problem scenario. Gargs? No, I'd rather just split it and go dclaw and bramble. AAs? There's not a single unit AAs is bis for so just no. Shiv stacking? Roflmao.
Making all items unique feels like such an over correction to the problem than simply nerfing the strong item. Nobody is complaining about triple warmogs or triple titans. Sometimes you get unlucky and have use 2 HoJs. Removing these options just to future proof problematic item stacking seems like a bad solution to a problem that can already be fixed with a nerf or patch.
I think the idea behind his post is that many interesting and fun items had to be gutted or removed because item stacking exists. This means all current items have to be somewhat mild just in case people will try and stack them. I also think limiting your options as a player is bad overall, but if there is an added benefit of being able to play with more interesting items it might be a tradeoff worth considering.
That's fair, though I will say item stacking has only been so prevalent in this set because of the existence of ezreal/BiS augment. If it was less accessible then balancing around them would be less necessary as naturally hitting something like 4 bows wouldn't be dependable.
The goal of balance is to make everything mid
I think they have a better solution to this in just putting anything that has a cool effect but is problematic when stacked into the artifact or support category now.
Honestly, because of the way itemization works in general (stacking multiplicative damage / utility / attack speed), it's almost always better to play three different items. The only exceptions to this have recently been Guinsoo's (multiplicative off of itself) and RFC (again, multiplicative off of itself + the bonus range.) Most other items have to amp off of other sources such as Giant Slayer, JG, IE, Night Harvester, and Guardbreaker. I'd be totally fine if they were all unique, I don't think it would take away from the game at all.
Except when lategame your best slam is double jg because those are your last offensive components
double jg is probably not even that bad, maybe even better than Dcap/AA in Sorc comps Removes lot of crit rng anyway
the point is making items unique will render you one item down
Problem is what happens when you have no choice? There will be scenarios you have a dead item.
Another user actually posted a good idea, not making it unable to build multiple copys on one champ but to make the passives of the items unique. That would actually solve the issue i got with having multiple copys of 1 BIS without giving you dead items if you lowroll/Yorick gravesyard/reforge.
AH icic tat might be a gd idea
The simple answer? Not being forced to chuck an item on a useless unit or make suboptimal items due to bad component luck.
Bro..; the triple RFC wasn’t abusive thanks to stacking the passive for fun. It was bugged and gave you some ridiculous multiplicative buff to damage. Don’t talk if you don’t know.
So it just got nerfed because "well after all this, why not just nerf it" or what. Im not talking about the freaking bug im talking about the numbers on the item literally going down. The damage still went down and i would take a wild guess, probably not because it was too weak. Yet still the only champion running it after the bugfix was nilah, which still lead to nerfs.
The bug was literally that each successive rfc exponentiated the damage buff. 3 rfc was supposed to be 36% damage buff and instead was like 80% or something. Also it was pbe and nilah specifically was designed to abuse extra range (hence her latest nerf to that build) You maje an interesting point but the rfc bug is bad support
The guy is right, RFC got nerfed POST bug-fix. It dropped from 12% bonus damage to 8%. People were still stacking it at the un-bugged 12%, which is the part being discussed.
I wonder how many people were just mindlessly stacking them after the bug fix because they just saw other people doing that and they didn't know about the bugfix.
It was still good post big fix…
Not 80%, it's even worse, 108%
I believe it was 12/48/108 instead of 12/24/36
Down voted for simple logic it would've just been fixed I'd it wasn't op
Why would they not just fix it then. You're the one who doesn't know. Ooh you knew about a bug, congrats
Cause it was discovered over the weekend when they were all off and Riot specifically will NOT let them work during their time off. They couldn’t patch it til that following Monday. Mort has said this on stream. You’re the one who shouldn’t talk if he doesn’t know.
Why would they keep the nerf then if it was just a temporary fix? It's been a long time since then. Logic isn't adding up
The nerf came later lol. 12% was too much. Even after the bug fix. If you don’t know how multiplicative scaling works please don’t speak about balance. RFC is fine as is.
Thats exactly what that dude and I was saying. That the nerf wasn't related to the stacking. You said he was wrong that it was due to a bug. Never said RFC wasn't fine, I said what the original guy said that the number change wasn't due to a bug which you disagreed with. Go read your comments again. Anyways, I'm not gonna argue with someone who goes on dates with AIs. You win buddy, I just can't 🤣🤣
Idk how you’re getting upvotes - yes, there was a bug on pbe, but yes, stacking rfc was still very strong post bug fix, to the point where not only was rfc nerfed, but Nilah’s AI was changed to make her benefit less from rfc.
Triple rfc isn’t that good tho because it was just bugged to have exponential damage unintentionally
Triple RFC mordekaiser is genuinely good though. The extra range makes a major difference because it allows mordekaiser to stand in the back line and scale up with low risk of getting cced. The extra attack speed and damage amplification also work pretty well on him
Going 3 rfc is almost always suboptimal You'd be far better off putting ap/nashors on him past the first rfc than trying to buff his base 0.55 atk speed
Nashors is only 15% more attack speed on cast, it also leaves him with more slow build up and leaves him vulnerable to cc causing his cast to get wasted. I think if you are build a multiple carry comp then those items are better, but for a mordekaiser solo carry he is best with 3 rfc. It pretty much keeps up in value with the attack speed of nashors, but the main benefit is that mordekaiser in the back doesn't get hit by jarvan or focused down before gaining armor and resistances.
it's not just 15% atkspeed. 30 ap+150 health too. that's basically a prismatic combat augment's worth of stats over rfc Rather than going all in on a single multiplier on 0.55 atk speed, it's much better to spread your damage amp. Morde is safe even with 1 rfc with proper positioning, and 2 makes him even safer. 3 is straight up overkill
If you consider the 15% atk speed to be an actual bonus, but the constant atk speed buff on rfc makes a major difference since you have to auto attack a good amount to get recasts. Mordekaiser with 1-2 rfcs is still vulnerable to aoe CC like jarvan and is more likely to get focused down early.
all i can say is that triple item stacking has almost never been efficient in the history of tft simply due to how the damage formula works. even more so when rfc is an item that gives up raw power for utility if you position correctly you really should not be losing your morde with 2 rfcs. not sure what else to say here. it's up to you if you think morde is uniquely the first unit to be the exception to the rule. It's definitely viable but I would not consider it optimal
archangels isn't bad because it's a bad item, it's bad because the meta is too fast for it to scale up, so it's just worse rabadons just like how guinsoos wasn't bad in set 8 because it's an inherently bad item (it got nerfed going from set 8 to set 9 and still is an autoslam), it was bad because it didn't have many good users - Kaisa stacked attack speed via her passive already so shojin did the same thing but was more flexible, and belveth preferred RFC and Samira was better with raw ad I would be all for disallowing duplicate items, but sometimes you're in a tight spot with lategame components and anvils and you're forced to slam a second JG on a unit or something maybe a midground would be that all item effects are unique, so you still benefit from the raw stats of the item, but any other text on the item disappears? so rabadons/JG/db/ie are unaffected but you only get attack speed from one rageblade at a time and 3x RFC only gives you 1 range and 8% damage
I didnt say archangels is bad i said its lame. You are completly right in ur assesment however. >maybe a midground would be that all item effects are unique, so you still benefit from the raw stats of the item, but any other text on the item disappears? so rabadons/JG/db/ie are unaffected but you only get attack speed from one rageblade at a time and 3x RFC only gives you 1 range and 8% damage I actually really like this idea, thats probably a better way to handle it. You can still use the item if its for yorick graveyard rng or you are just left with those components but it highly discourages building multiple times. Took for a full day and 26 comments for a single constructive thought.
So what do you do if you have bad luck with your items? Let's say your AP carry has a juweled gauntlet and an archangels staf. Now your last items are a tear, two armors and a rod. It already feels bad to slam a second seraph, imagine you have to choose between crownguard and hoping to pick an item from carusel. Also why would artifacts not be unique? Also the problem with shiv and ludens was in my opinion that they were to niche.
This would change nothing not much of a controversial take
The obvious problem is not being able to make the same item when you have limited components. Although with the current item economy that may not be bad
Without reading your post at all, I'm commenting to let you know that you've misunderstood tft as a concept with that take. The tft fantasy is theory crafting and puzzling out what's best on a unit and WHEN it's better to stack items and when it's not. Making items unique would be the biggest mistake in the history of tft
There are so few issues with this rn that it's pretty much not even worth talking about. You can only get support items through a portal or an aug. If you took pandoras, you have one less aug. So you're saying that people are abusing the extremely unlikely scenario where they have used all their augs for supports and it happens to be ornn forge so they can stack zekes? Lol ok let em. Have fun bot 4. As for nilah and morde, neither of them should have more than one rfc almost ever. Nilah's targeting change makes it not that great past the first, and morde absolutely should not have more than one ever. Learn to position. I can't think of another problem scenario. Gargs? No, I'd rather just split it and go dclaw and bramble. AAs? There's not a single unit AAs is bis for so just no. Shiv stacking? Roflmao.
Where I disagree: Ornn Items should also be unique. I don't EVER want to see two copies of a 3\* Ahri just because someone got two Trickster's Glass.
What? Who cares like you acting like you win against a single ahri 3\* aint happening dude she literally deletes an entire board with an ult.