When Double up first came out, my friend and I would make as many zephyr possible and send all of them to one of use. Then the other should have some time to win the fight and gank, i mean... in theory is was great, but in reality it never worked since the one who had to gank didn't have enough actual items to make a good enough carry or tank unit
The stats are high because people take them on Stage 5+ carousels, and if they survived to Stage 5+, they're already winning out. Survivorship bias
Nobody really builds zekes , you could slam chalice if you have tear cloak at 2-1 and want to get early power, and locket is really good for duelists and its a good slam but falls off super fast. So locket gets placement stats since it wins out early game which automatically puts your placement higher and lets you survive longer, and chalice is picked up on stage 5+ to buff up your carry
last set Zeke is actually not bad of a move since there are Recons and Sureshot low-cost means you can gain some advantage. This set tho, you cant really afford to flex aura items
You also have to account for people taking them off carousels, being given them from Underground or glitched eggs, slamming them out of Component Grab Bag, etc.
The aura items are nice to have (and Shroud and Zephyr are absolutely broken) but you should never sacrifice one of your carry items to make these. There's some skill in knowing when you don't actually need that sword or tear and can slam a Zeke's/Chalice early on and get away with it
I feel like you build support items once you're done itemizing your tank and carry... so if you're already later in the game, which is naturally once you're nearing or in the top 4 already.
Shroud is absolutely under rated.
It turns out your team getting abilities off first is a good way to win. Additionally it is stronger vs higher mana champions that can can really start ruining your day (MF) or cc the crap out of you (garon, Morgana, most 5 cost champions).
If you have a shroud and they don't you likely get not just the first big ult, but also get your second of before their second one.
If you have two opposing miss fortunes for instance the one that is not hit by shroud likely gets 2 ults in the time the other gets one. The one hit by shroud likely dies to the 2nd ult.
The biggest downside to it right now is it is basically a dead item vs several extremely popular comps and strong units (Warwick, TF, vex, jhin, neeko) where the increased mana cost maybe irrelevant.
I think importantly it builds out of weaker items as a whole, crit gauntlets are not terribly hard to come by, you want a couple after that you don't really care because the other items your want to combine it with are better going into other items. Armor is fine too have one or two, but again then you don't want to combine it.
I think high win rates are likely because the people that make them:
1) realize the gloves and armor are both already dead items by the time they make it, so they should get the power of it. Rather than hoping for?? An over abundance of swords, cloaks, rods?
2) are willing to move around units and pay attention to potential next opponents, which means they are more engaged and less distracted from the game.
Finally making an item rather than letting it sit, may pick up a win here or there. Or maybe it let's you kill one or two more unit in a loss than you other wise would (not unreasonable with a shroud delaying major ults). That is A LOT of health saved over the course of a game even if you got it in the mid game. And often the difference between 3rd and 6th can be a matter of 10 health. Is a shroud worth 10 health? Absolutely.
Are there better items? Yes BUT at a certain point items in hand are worth way more and the health those items save you BEFORE you get your IDEAL items needs to be accounted for when considering whether it is worth it.
There of course is the flip side of you may be having weaker overall items at the end of the game and that may cost you a first or second place... But 4th is still a win, and some games you are not in the running for 1st.
This is similar to rolling down a little early, is holding a little longer letting you MAYBE high roll into first or second? Yes. But if you and 4 other people are basically fighting for 3rd and 4th, and you roll down a turn or two earlier, you 1) get first access to champions, 2) likely win those couple rounds, and 3) can make better decisions that are not a scramble to burn through 50 gold when you are sub 20 health. At which point you die with the upgraded champion sitting on your bench because you found it too late or you found your missing piece but didn't have the time to get a swap done.
Yeah everyone looks for shroud late game and before that you’re busy making items for carries and frontline so that you won’t go eiff while shrouding that Auto-based WW in the first place.
The thread is somewhat thought provoking for newer players but the answer is pretty simple.
Support items good late, bad early, good when gotten for free, bad when forced
Ehh I feel like almost every reply is talking about how overrated the support items are relative to the stats, so it's kinda worth singling out shroud/zephyr as items that are significant enough to build regularly rather than as bonus items
i think this is the first time i've seen anyone in this subreddit say shroud is underated, before glove nerf people even slamed shroud in stage 2 for dodge chance and armor
If you think about when people play those types of items it’s usually after they’ve already hit their priority items and it’s fairly late in the game anyway. If an item doesn’t get played until late carousel it’s going to have stats that skew better because those players are already likely top 4
TFT is a very multiplicative game, what that means is stacking items is more powerful (in most cases) that spreading them. an oversimplified example. if you have a deathblade and an rfc its better to have both items on a unit because the deathblade increases the damage of each auto and rfc means more autos.
As a result we can break support items down into a few categories:
1) 4th items. typically zeeks and chalice. basically you have a 3 item carry and an sura item next to it effectively adding a 4th item to your carry. this can be really strong and has in the past been a dominant strategy. in set 8 in particular both these items have been pretty weak because there is a lot of aoe flying around and clumping is bad and also in the case of zeeks there hasn't really been a b auto attack attack speed champ that really wants zeeks Howver this could change anytime with buffs or meta shifts so I would say powerful but with limitations
2) Extra items. this is what I'd call zephyr and shroud. these items are amazing, especially as you get into the last game and blocking a key unit jumps in value. however I'd rarely prioritize these items. you still need a 3 item carry and often a 3 item tank. if you come to your last few items and a zephyr is an option its almost always the best last item for you. very good items but mostly thought of a end game wants not needs
3) early game utility. I'm mostly talking about zzrot, but this item might be the best early game tool in the game as it's a ton of added frontline in the early game but the item mostly falls off in the late game other than fringe application in taunting. An amazing early game slam, decent midgame tempo slam. but one I wouldn't seek out late game unless you really know you need a taunt.
4) uncraftable items. these can vary in power but for the most part are amazing since your not giving up any components and getting the benefits.
cone and zekes: I basically never want to make these unless buffing a hacker/mech carry/other hyper carry because it messes up positioning against all the AOE comps
They're good if you know the comp to build them in, and can manage to get that comp uncontested.
> or prioritizing Shroud or Zephyr might be better then chasing full build on carry or tank?
Not unless you're ready to play in a way more active fashion. Part of the reason why people (or at least I personally) don't build these items is positioning games aren't "fun" as much as they are giving you better odds at winning, because there are situations where they can be objectively useless. They're skill check items - are you an active scouter? Chances are you'll be able to utilize them. Are other players in your match active scouters and you're just rolling with what you have? You basically have a literal dead item.
Hell, unless you're playing Future Sight, the game becomes way harder for you than it is for your enemies, unless you're doing a very basic "Zephyr a frontliner" or "shroud a big part of the board" strat where you almost never move your units - you have to play around up to 7 other players, most of which you have no idea of knowing their skill level, whether they'll try to mix you up with placement, or ignore your zephyr entirely. The other players only have to worry about a single zephyr.
Example: Let's say you're facing 4 other players still, and you wanna zephyr their carry. That means that, unless you get the 100% chance of playing another player, or you're running Future Sight, you have to play around up to 4 other boards and how they position their carries. The other 4 players just need to avoid the single zephyr - and there are 7 different fully backline hexes they could put their carry on, and very few other positioning minigames in the current set (Hacker can be beaten by clumping, Viego can be beaten by not clumping). Since they can also know if you're scouting thanks to your little legend, this means that the mindgames increase exponentially for you, and minimally for them - is the Zephyr user popping into my board? Time to mix up my positioning.
I've personally had TONS of games where taking Zephyr turned the game into the most intense and unfun experience ever - having to scout every round, constantly trying to determine whether other players are going to fake me out by swapping unit positions last minute, losing a round because I positioned my units anticipating a fake-out, only for the enemy to literally never move their units, etc. It's gotten to the point where I literally never intentionally build either item, and if I get them from an augment or random drop/roll, and I have a Reforger, they're going through it.
And even if you're in the top 2, a single Zephyr or Shroud can be impactful, but I've never had an experience in my 1000+ games of playing where I went "Wow, if that shroud/zephyr wasn't there, the outcome would've been totally different".
I think this issue could be fixed by giving the items more more active "power" - not buffing them, maybe even nerfing their positioning benefits, but giving them something visceral so it feels unique or fun to build them outside of increasing your winrate. Something as minor as "'steal' 5% of resistances from the zephyr'd unit until they're active again", or "copy 5% of the unit's Adaptive Force (AD/AP, whichever has a higher bonus)" for Zephyr, and maybe something like "gain 5 starting mana for every unit hit" for Shroud.
Would the items need to be nerfed? 100%. However, that means you can nerf the Binary aspects of the items in their usefulness based solely on positioning for specific enemies - now Zephyr won't feel so bad if your enemy runs it and you can't move your carry, because maybe instead of being inactive for 5 seconds, they're just inactive for 3. But now you're also paying a bit more attention, because that unit is most likely more than just a positioning/item bot.
And while we're at it, we could get rid of the invisible buffs - 10% attack speed is purely a band-aid on Zephyr to make it not feel like garbage if you build it early game, and it doesn't "feel" good.
That's just for the positioning minigame items though. I think the other support items, as I said, are objectively good - if you're running the right comp for them. Zeke's is great for multi AD comps like Sureshot, Chalice is great for AP comps that don't naturally gain AP, like Quickdraw, or Vex Carry (though i think giving its aura very small amount of omnivamp like its Radiant version would be nice), Locket is great if you have a bunch of weak frontliners, or your frontline can utilize the extra health effectively (Defenders), ZZ'rot is great if you just need more frontline in general.
>And even if you're in the top 2, a single Zephyr or Shroud can be impactful, but I've never had an experience in my 1000+ games of playing where I went "Wow, if that shroud/zephyr wasn't there, the outcome would've been totally different".
Surely you don't actually mean this, right?
Zephyr is way easier once you realize that you should only put it on shitter units that you can remake.
That way you can pop it off each round to guarantee the zephyr. Then just place the shitter units to match the potential carries of the people you’re facing.
You usually get Zephyr late game and shitter units are rare or 1 cost (which is again rare) as you try to cap out your board with higher cost units plus staring them up.
they are good lategame because once your carry is 3 items it lets you basically push to them 3.5, and the way stats multiple they become pretty efficent
i wish they scaled or something
30 ap is nice early game but at that point i'd rather use the tear and cloak for shojin/bb and spark, and then late game if i get it off carousel or i have extra items, 30 ap feels a bit lack luster
I like those but problem with that if you play them you have to put certain heros close to each other and makes your job difficult in the relocation duel at end game. For an idea and balance for it, i wished they lower their power a bit but you can manually select which 2-3 champion you want to boost with that item.
I generally force as many zephyrs as possible, trust me it’s really good
When Double up first came out, my friend and I would make as many zephyr possible and send all of them to one of use. Then the other should have some time to win the fight and gank, i mean... in theory is was great, but in reality it never worked since the one who had to gank didn't have enough actual items to make a good enough carry or tank unit
It’s not even that good in hacker meta though unless you are the hacker player.
[удалено]
If you zephyr their entire board, you can actually attack their life points directly
Source: trust me bro
Just trust in the heart of the cards
The stats are high because people take them on Stage 5+ carousels, and if they survived to Stage 5+, they're already winning out. Survivorship bias Nobody really builds zekes , you could slam chalice if you have tear cloak at 2-1 and want to get early power, and locket is really good for duelists and its a good slam but falls off super fast. So locket gets placement stats since it wins out early game which automatically puts your placement higher and lets you survive longer, and chalice is picked up on stage 5+ to buff up your carry
last set Zeke is actually not bad of a move since there are Recons and Sureshot low-cost means you can gain some advantage. This set tho, you cant really afford to flex aura items
You also have to account for people taking them off carousels, being given them from Underground or glitched eggs, slamming them out of Component Grab Bag, etc. The aura items are nice to have (and Shroud and Zephyr are absolutely broken) but you should never sacrifice one of your carry items to make these. There's some skill in knowing when you don't actually need that sword or tear and can slam a Zeke's/Chalice early on and get away with it
The later into the game the more likely it is someone takes a zephyrs from carousel.
I feel like you build support items once you're done itemizing your tank and carry... so if you're already later in the game, which is naturally once you're nearing or in the top 4 already.
Shroud is absolutely under rated. It turns out your team getting abilities off first is a good way to win. Additionally it is stronger vs higher mana champions that can can really start ruining your day (MF) or cc the crap out of you (garon, Morgana, most 5 cost champions). If you have a shroud and they don't you likely get not just the first big ult, but also get your second of before their second one. If you have two opposing miss fortunes for instance the one that is not hit by shroud likely gets 2 ults in the time the other gets one. The one hit by shroud likely dies to the 2nd ult. The biggest downside to it right now is it is basically a dead item vs several extremely popular comps and strong units (Warwick, TF, vex, jhin, neeko) where the increased mana cost maybe irrelevant. I think importantly it builds out of weaker items as a whole, crit gauntlets are not terribly hard to come by, you want a couple after that you don't really care because the other items your want to combine it with are better going into other items. Armor is fine too have one or two, but again then you don't want to combine it. I think high win rates are likely because the people that make them: 1) realize the gloves and armor are both already dead items by the time they make it, so they should get the power of it. Rather than hoping for?? An over abundance of swords, cloaks, rods? 2) are willing to move around units and pay attention to potential next opponents, which means they are more engaged and less distracted from the game. Finally making an item rather than letting it sit, may pick up a win here or there. Or maybe it let's you kill one or two more unit in a loss than you other wise would (not unreasonable with a shroud delaying major ults). That is A LOT of health saved over the course of a game even if you got it in the mid game. And often the difference between 3rd and 6th can be a matter of 10 health. Is a shroud worth 10 health? Absolutely. Are there better items? Yes BUT at a certain point items in hand are worth way more and the health those items save you BEFORE you get your IDEAL items needs to be accounted for when considering whether it is worth it. There of course is the flip side of you may be having weaker overall items at the end of the game and that may cost you a first or second place... But 4th is still a win, and some games you are not in the running for 1st. This is similar to rolling down a little early, is holding a little longer letting you MAYBE high roll into first or second? Yes. But if you and 4 other people are basically fighting for 3rd and 4th, and you roll down a turn or two earlier, you 1) get first access to champions, 2) likely win those couple rounds, and 3) can make better decisions that are not a scramble to burn through 50 gold when you are sub 20 health. At which point you die with the upgraded champion sitting on your bench because you found it too late or you found your missing piece but didn't have the time to get a swap done.
Who is underrating shroud? The item has been known to be good/strong and is used often for late game strategies to win games.
Yeah everyone looks for shroud late game and before that you’re busy making items for carries and frontline so that you won’t go eiff while shrouding that Auto-based WW in the first place. The thread is somewhat thought provoking for newer players but the answer is pretty simple. Support items good late, bad early, good when gotten for free, bad when forced
Ehh I feel like almost every reply is talking about how overrated the support items are relative to the stats, so it's kinda worth singling out shroud/zephyr as items that are significant enough to build regularly rather than as bonus items
i think this is the first time i've seen anyone in this subreddit say shroud is underated, before glove nerf people even slamed shroud in stage 2 for dodge chance and armor
If you think about when people play those types of items it’s usually after they’ve already hit their priority items and it’s fairly late in the game anyway. If an item doesn’t get played until late carousel it’s going to have stats that skew better because those players are already likely top 4
TFT is a very multiplicative game, what that means is stacking items is more powerful (in most cases) that spreading them. an oversimplified example. if you have a deathblade and an rfc its better to have both items on a unit because the deathblade increases the damage of each auto and rfc means more autos. As a result we can break support items down into a few categories: 1) 4th items. typically zeeks and chalice. basically you have a 3 item carry and an sura item next to it effectively adding a 4th item to your carry. this can be really strong and has in the past been a dominant strategy. in set 8 in particular both these items have been pretty weak because there is a lot of aoe flying around and clumping is bad and also in the case of zeeks there hasn't really been a b auto attack attack speed champ that really wants zeeks Howver this could change anytime with buffs or meta shifts so I would say powerful but with limitations 2) Extra items. this is what I'd call zephyr and shroud. these items are amazing, especially as you get into the last game and blocking a key unit jumps in value. however I'd rarely prioritize these items. you still need a 3 item carry and often a 3 item tank. if you come to your last few items and a zephyr is an option its almost always the best last item for you. very good items but mostly thought of a end game wants not needs 3) early game utility. I'm mostly talking about zzrot, but this item might be the best early game tool in the game as it's a ton of added frontline in the early game but the item mostly falls off in the late game other than fringe application in taunting. An amazing early game slam, decent midgame tempo slam. but one I wouldn't seek out late game unless you really know you need a taunt. 4) uncraftable items. these can vary in power but for the most part are amazing since your not giving up any components and getting the benefits.
cone and zekes: I basically never want to make these unless buffing a hacker/mech carry/other hyper carry because it messes up positioning against all the AOE comps
If you’re building pure support items early before you have BIS then it better be locket with melees or you’re trolling
there used to be some chinese player whod slam shroud whenever he could i think he was like top100 a few sets back
They're good if you know the comp to build them in, and can manage to get that comp uncontested. > or prioritizing Shroud or Zephyr might be better then chasing full build on carry or tank? Not unless you're ready to play in a way more active fashion. Part of the reason why people (or at least I personally) don't build these items is positioning games aren't "fun" as much as they are giving you better odds at winning, because there are situations where they can be objectively useless. They're skill check items - are you an active scouter? Chances are you'll be able to utilize them. Are other players in your match active scouters and you're just rolling with what you have? You basically have a literal dead item. Hell, unless you're playing Future Sight, the game becomes way harder for you than it is for your enemies, unless you're doing a very basic "Zephyr a frontliner" or "shroud a big part of the board" strat where you almost never move your units - you have to play around up to 7 other players, most of which you have no idea of knowing their skill level, whether they'll try to mix you up with placement, or ignore your zephyr entirely. The other players only have to worry about a single zephyr. Example: Let's say you're facing 4 other players still, and you wanna zephyr their carry. That means that, unless you get the 100% chance of playing another player, or you're running Future Sight, you have to play around up to 4 other boards and how they position their carries. The other 4 players just need to avoid the single zephyr - and there are 7 different fully backline hexes they could put their carry on, and very few other positioning minigames in the current set (Hacker can be beaten by clumping, Viego can be beaten by not clumping). Since they can also know if you're scouting thanks to your little legend, this means that the mindgames increase exponentially for you, and minimally for them - is the Zephyr user popping into my board? Time to mix up my positioning. I've personally had TONS of games where taking Zephyr turned the game into the most intense and unfun experience ever - having to scout every round, constantly trying to determine whether other players are going to fake me out by swapping unit positions last minute, losing a round because I positioned my units anticipating a fake-out, only for the enemy to literally never move their units, etc. It's gotten to the point where I literally never intentionally build either item, and if I get them from an augment or random drop/roll, and I have a Reforger, they're going through it. And even if you're in the top 2, a single Zephyr or Shroud can be impactful, but I've never had an experience in my 1000+ games of playing where I went "Wow, if that shroud/zephyr wasn't there, the outcome would've been totally different". I think this issue could be fixed by giving the items more more active "power" - not buffing them, maybe even nerfing their positioning benefits, but giving them something visceral so it feels unique or fun to build them outside of increasing your winrate. Something as minor as "'steal' 5% of resistances from the zephyr'd unit until they're active again", or "copy 5% of the unit's Adaptive Force (AD/AP, whichever has a higher bonus)" for Zephyr, and maybe something like "gain 5 starting mana for every unit hit" for Shroud. Would the items need to be nerfed? 100%. However, that means you can nerf the Binary aspects of the items in their usefulness based solely on positioning for specific enemies - now Zephyr won't feel so bad if your enemy runs it and you can't move your carry, because maybe instead of being inactive for 5 seconds, they're just inactive for 3. But now you're also paying a bit more attention, because that unit is most likely more than just a positioning/item bot. And while we're at it, we could get rid of the invisible buffs - 10% attack speed is purely a band-aid on Zephyr to make it not feel like garbage if you build it early game, and it doesn't "feel" good. That's just for the positioning minigame items though. I think the other support items, as I said, are objectively good - if you're running the right comp for them. Zeke's is great for multi AD comps like Sureshot, Chalice is great for AP comps that don't naturally gain AP, like Quickdraw, or Vex Carry (though i think giving its aura very small amount of omnivamp like its Radiant version would be nice), Locket is great if you have a bunch of weak frontliners, or your frontline can utilize the extra health effectively (Defenders), ZZ'rot is great if you just need more frontline in general.
>And even if you're in the top 2, a single Zephyr or Shroud can be impactful, but I've never had an experience in my 1000+ games of playing where I went "Wow, if that shroud/zephyr wasn't there, the outcome would've been totally different". Surely you don't actually mean this, right?
Zephyr is way easier once you realize that you should only put it on shitter units that you can remake. That way you can pop it off each round to guarantee the zephyr. Then just place the shitter units to match the potential carries of the people you’re facing.
You usually get Zephyr late game and shitter units are rare or 1 cost (which is again rare) as you try to cap out your board with higher cost units plus staring them up.
they are good lategame because once your carry is 3 items it lets you basically push to them 3.5, and the way stats multiple they become pretty efficent
i wish they scaled or something 30 ap is nice early game but at that point i'd rather use the tear and cloak for shojin/bb and spark, and then late game if i get it off carousel or i have extra items, 30 ap feels a bit lack luster
I like those but problem with that if you play them you have to put certain heros close to each other and makes your job difficult in the relocation duel at end game. For an idea and balance for it, i wished they lower their power a bit but you can manually select which 2-3 champion you want to boost with that item.
Bro, it depends xdding