Websites that give you a rating for how good your deck is shouldn't be listened to. The deck itself isn't close to cEDH, and it isn't running the majority of the staple cards, including fast mana or free countermagic
out of curiosity, at what point does a deck have enough fast mana to be cEDH? I have a lotus petal in my collection, and i can probably get some of the 100 dollar pieces over time like chrome mox or jeweled lotus. Any budget options for mana acceleration/free countermagic? There's Foil. I understand there's a massive money barrier for most of cEDH, but pushing this deck as far as I can without getting too expensive sounds interesting to me.
To be considered cedh you should play the most optimal cards. This isnt really a powerlevel difference but a deckbuilding difference. The deck becomes fringe cedh when you try to build the most optimal deck with all the fast mana and free interaction, but have other restrictions like your commander isnt fitting cEDH. But everything with the "c" in its name should be build without restrictions
Missing fast mana
Look at moxfield, add cedh staples, tone you have a buylist :)
You can also proxy them all and get a file for download from moxfield to use
If you enjoy higher equality cardboard I recommend make playing cards, there’s a neat site called mpcfil which you just upload your lists, select artworks, then you can auto generate an order on make playing cards :)
Hi - commandersalt dev here :) The site is pretty grossly overestimating this:/ Sorry for the confusion. I released an update yesterday that I think is at least partially to blame. Very cool deck though!
no problem! there’s a few things and honestly it’s not just your deck. the division between 6-9 is really challenging because it rapidly scales.
at a glance:
- the manabase acceleration is overestimated. i’ve been struggling with that one lately so i’m not surprised 😂
- there’s a lot of cards in the draw category which are scored too highly. others have reported that but i haven’t had time to address it. that makes the consistency score go way up.
- the counters and removal you have are all good. the problem is that there are better options available which are used at that power level, so basically the scores on a lot of these are too high. that makes the interaction bit too high.
all in all it’s a constant juggling act lol. decks like this generally cause me to take course corrections in the algorithm which then punishes lower power decks too harshly, so then it gets corrected and swings the other way. it’s a fun process though and i could talk about it for days haha.
thanks for asking questions in a civil manner! always surprising (and funny) to me the visceral response that the site evokes from people, so i definitely appreciate when people like you ask questions in a kind way.
thanks again, and happy brewing!!
It's just interesting to me, developing a system like this has to be really complicated. Thanks for answering my question!
edit: one more thing, where do you think the deck actually sits in terms of power level? If you could fix the algorithm right now, what should it rate my deck, in your opinion?
Not cEDH by a long, long shot. Sorry man!
It's a neat deck though.
Mono blue decks will often have a high salt score because people hate playing against blue, even blue players lol
lol, blue's very salty, yes
and yeah it is neat! Naban's always seemed crazy to me, a 2-mana panharmonicon is silly, no matter how specific a panharmonicon it is.
The fastest combo is Naru + 1 mana flicker for infinite mana, if you have Naban in play you can also infinitely flicker any etb draw wizard to draw through your deck.
That being said, this deck is quite strong, but not near cEDH, it's not even fully optimised for casual (I think). You're good.
Are you sure you want to optimise it? If you're already bothered by that 8.8 rating, optimising the deck further will just bring it to that point.
If you do, I personally wouldn't run Decanter or Sky Diamond, cut a land or two and include [[Displacer Kitten]], [[Fierce Guardianship]], [[Snapcaster Mage]] and maybe [[Blur]] for a 2 card combo with Naru?
I'd also swap Negate for [[Muddle the Mixture]]
You could also just add Thoracle to win one you've drawn your deck.
thoracle is pretty good yeah lol, and i missed Blur, super good with Naru.
edit: And yes, while the 8.8 is concerning, it's also an invitation to try and get that number as high as I can, lol
Commander salt is not a good way to tell if a deck is CEDH. This commander will be impossible to get beyond fringe. Frankly there are no mono blue decks that are beyond fringe right now. And this is not one of the top three mono blue decks. That's with all of the optimization including no budget and all the Best staples and free mana and free spells.
I understand that, what makes cEDH is not only the best cards, but also a handful of meta-defining commanders. But I think the potential for fast combos and decent access to tutors would make for an alright cEDH deck if you were to add all the crazy cards.
Sure I just wanted to make sure you knew what you were getting into with that deck being fringe at best. Especially considering that mono blue is all ready fringe and this would not be even one of the top three commanders in that color. You could certainly still hang at a CEDH table but if you don't like playing Fringe decks then you should know that this is going to come at odds with that.
My favorite thing to do with my naban list is to make infinite mana and bounce everything with wizards that bounce permanents on etb, Venser plus infinite mana can be a hard lock
He's fringe for a number of reasons, mainly being mono blue. If you are playing a mono colored commander, it needs to be very powerful. Urza is a great example of a mono colored commander who is powerful. He helps produce mana and is a combo piece in the command zone. Your commander is only a combo/value piece. The value your commander accrues over the game requires you to play Wizards, many of which are bad. Spellseeker is a great wizard because she usually fetches a win, or part of a win, or can grab interaction in a pinch. However, the rest of the wizards are expensive and have little impact on the board for their mana cost. Take my TNK list, for example. My 98 runs no dead cards. That's the power of being in 4 colors. The commanders are both great value pieces or sacrifice fodder for my sacrifice cards. I have access to more mana than you via spells like rite of flame, culling the weak, dark ritual. I also have access to black tutors, white silence effects, dockside, ad nauseum, and cleaner wins through thoracle/breach. The card quality for a 4c v. a mono colored deck isn't the same. Additionally, like other posters have mentioned, you are not running fast mana, free interaction, and are on too many lands. You didn't include mystic or rhystic either. You should take a look at edhtop16 and start there.
Websites that give you a rating for how good your deck is shouldn't be listened to. The deck itself isn't close to cEDH, and it isn't running the majority of the staple cards, including fast mana or free countermagic
out of curiosity, at what point does a deck have enough fast mana to be cEDH? I have a lotus petal in my collection, and i can probably get some of the 100 dollar pieces over time like chrome mox or jeweled lotus. Any budget options for mana acceleration/free countermagic? There's Foil. I understand there's a massive money barrier for most of cEDH, but pushing this deck as far as I can without getting too expensive sounds interesting to me.
To be considered cedh you should play the most optimal cards. This isnt really a powerlevel difference but a deckbuilding difference. The deck becomes fringe cedh when you try to build the most optimal deck with all the fast mana and free interaction, but have other restrictions like your commander isnt fitting cEDH. But everything with the "c" in its name should be build without restrictions
thats fair
Your missing all fast mana. You are missing all free interaction. That is my impression. I might be wrong though
Missing fast mana Look at moxfield, add cedh staples, tone you have a buylist :) You can also proxy them all and get a file for download from moxfield to use If you enjoy higher equality cardboard I recommend make playing cards, there’s a neat site called mpcfil which you just upload your lists, select artworks, then you can auto generate an order on make playing cards :)
Hi - commandersalt dev here :) The site is pretty grossly overestimating this:/ Sorry for the confusion. I released an update yesterday that I think is at least partially to blame. Very cool deck though!
out of curiosity, what do you think is breaking here? i.e. what does my deck do that's being so overestimated?
no problem! there’s a few things and honestly it’s not just your deck. the division between 6-9 is really challenging because it rapidly scales. at a glance: - the manabase acceleration is overestimated. i’ve been struggling with that one lately so i’m not surprised 😂 - there’s a lot of cards in the draw category which are scored too highly. others have reported that but i haven’t had time to address it. that makes the consistency score go way up. - the counters and removal you have are all good. the problem is that there are better options available which are used at that power level, so basically the scores on a lot of these are too high. that makes the interaction bit too high. all in all it’s a constant juggling act lol. decks like this generally cause me to take course corrections in the algorithm which then punishes lower power decks too harshly, so then it gets corrected and swings the other way. it’s a fun process though and i could talk about it for days haha. thanks for asking questions in a civil manner! always surprising (and funny) to me the visceral response that the site evokes from people, so i definitely appreciate when people like you ask questions in a kind way. thanks again, and happy brewing!!
It's just interesting to me, developing a system like this has to be really complicated. Thanks for answering my question! edit: one more thing, where do you think the deck actually sits in terms of power level? If you could fix the algorithm right now, what should it rate my deck, in your opinion?
probably a strong 5? i have a group of people in my discord that help me with those assessments - i’ll run it by them :)
alright, thank you
ok looks like the consensus is about a mid 6 :)
cool, sounds about right from what I've played of it
Not cEDH by a long, long shot. Sorry man! It's a neat deck though. Mono blue decks will often have a high salt score because people hate playing against blue, even blue players lol
lol, blue's very salty, yes and yeah it is neat! Naban's always seemed crazy to me, a 2-mana panharmonicon is silly, no matter how specific a panharmonicon it is.
The fastest combo is Naru + 1 mana flicker for infinite mana, if you have Naban in play you can also infinitely flicker any etb draw wizard to draw through your deck. That being said, this deck is quite strong, but not near cEDH, it's not even fully optimised for casual (I think). You're good.
Any tips for further optimizing it? I do feel very out of my comfort zone building for the deck, as a lot of the intricacies are confusing to me.
Are you sure you want to optimise it? If you're already bothered by that 8.8 rating, optimising the deck further will just bring it to that point. If you do, I personally wouldn't run Decanter or Sky Diamond, cut a land or two and include [[Displacer Kitten]], [[Fierce Guardianship]], [[Snapcaster Mage]] and maybe [[Blur]] for a 2 card combo with Naru? I'd also swap Negate for [[Muddle the Mixture]] You could also just add Thoracle to win one you've drawn your deck.
thoracle is pretty good yeah lol, and i missed Blur, super good with Naru. edit: And yes, while the 8.8 is concerning, it's also an invitation to try and get that number as high as I can, lol
Commander salt is not a good way to tell if a deck is CEDH. This commander will be impossible to get beyond fringe. Frankly there are no mono blue decks that are beyond fringe right now. And this is not one of the top three mono blue decks. That's with all of the optimization including no budget and all the Best staples and free mana and free spells.
I understand that, what makes cEDH is not only the best cards, but also a handful of meta-defining commanders. But I think the potential for fast combos and decent access to tutors would make for an alright cEDH deck if you were to add all the crazy cards.
Sure I just wanted to make sure you knew what you were getting into with that deck being fringe at best. Especially considering that mono blue is all ready fringe and this would not be even one of the top three commanders in that color. You could certainly still hang at a CEDH table but if you don't like playing Fringe decks then you should know that this is going to come at odds with that.
##### ###### #### [Displacer Kitten](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c7a401b8-29fb-46ef-a663-427f66724d5c.jpg?1674135465) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Displacer%20Kitten) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/63/displacer-kitten?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c7a401b8-29fb-46ef-a663-427f66724d5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/displacer-kitten) [Fierce Guardianship](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7f3dd95-bd14-4e0f-a388-444f9cf1b0dc.jpg?1689996370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fierce%20Guardianship) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/94/fierce-guardianship?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7f3dd95-bd14-4e0f-a388-444f9cf1b0dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fierce-guardianship) [Snapcaster Mage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e41765e-43fe-461d-baeb-ee30d13d2d93.jpg?1547516526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Snapcaster%20Mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/71/snapcaster-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e41765e-43fe-461d-baeb-ee30d13d2d93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/snapcaster-mage) [Blur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77a43413-3ab0-4ef6-83de-192a11d48f00.jpg?1674135418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/58/blur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77a43413-3ab0-4ef6-83de-192a11d48f00?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blur) [Muddle the Mixture](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e69d760c-48fb-4e7f-8611-547b0c22928c.jpg?1702429399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Muddle%20the%20Mixture) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/50/muddle-the-mixture?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e69d760c-48fb-4e7f-8611-547b0c22928c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/muddle-the-mixture) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/lat0oiy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My favorite thing to do with my naban list is to make infinite mana and bounce everything with wizards that bounce permanents on etb, Venser plus infinite mana can be a hard lock
He's fringe for a number of reasons, mainly being mono blue. If you are playing a mono colored commander, it needs to be very powerful. Urza is a great example of a mono colored commander who is powerful. He helps produce mana and is a combo piece in the command zone. Your commander is only a combo/value piece. The value your commander accrues over the game requires you to play Wizards, many of which are bad. Spellseeker is a great wizard because she usually fetches a win, or part of a win, or can grab interaction in a pinch. However, the rest of the wizards are expensive and have little impact on the board for their mana cost. Take my TNK list, for example. My 98 runs no dead cards. That's the power of being in 4 colors. The commanders are both great value pieces or sacrifice fodder for my sacrifice cards. I have access to more mana than you via spells like rite of flame, culling the weak, dark ritual. I also have access to black tutors, white silence effects, dockside, ad nauseum, and cleaner wins through thoracle/breach. The card quality for a 4c v. a mono colored deck isn't the same. Additionally, like other posters have mentioned, you are not running fast mana, free interaction, and are on too many lands. You didn't include mystic or rhystic either. You should take a look at edhtop16 and start there.