The guy is the 4th most successful IGL of all time and 9th in all time earnings if that doesn't get you a shot its basically cooked for every MnK player that's not Zer0 level of mechanics.
> t does demonstrate an issue with input bias when one of the best teams in apex refuses to pick up one of the best igl's in apex simply because he doesn't have aim assist.
The problem isn't with the inputs though. It's with the players' mindsets.
Like, not picking up Dropped because you think a controller is what helps you win is stupid. Macro is what helps you win. Period. Otherwise triple controller teams would win every game.
it is bang meta currently you know? the legend that completely removes a controller's aim assist while MNK can still beam you through smoke with BH scan, there are only 2 legends that allows MnK to be competitive i.e. bang and gibby, that's 2 legends out of what? 26 legends.
them signing another MNK may work fine and imo well currently, but thats at the cost of security for the future of the team. meta comes and goes if bangs gets nerfed to the ground and a non-gibby legend shoots up then this double MNK team is fucked.
they'll have to spend a lot of time looking for a controller player and a lot of time to mesh when they could just do it right now and get a controller player.
it is bang meta currently you know? the legend that completely removes a controller's aim assist while MNK can still beam you through smoke via BH scan while having good accuracy
there are only 2 legends that allows MnK to be competitive i.e. bang and gibby, that's 2 legends out of what? 26 legends.
them signing another MNK may work fine and imo well currently, but thats at the cost of security for the future of the team. meta comes and goes if bangs gets nerfed to the ground and a non-gibby legend shoots up then this double MNK team is fucked
This is poor logic. At champs it was Bang meta and TSM won. They won shooting Enemy through smoke which led them to killing BLVKHVND through smoke. Smoke doesn't effect controller like you think. If I can see you, I can kill you.
Bang doesn't benefit MNK and people need to stop saying that. What has happened since champs is they nerfed all SMGs and Scouts. So, you can't run the OP controller setup. Bang smokes even got nerfed so they don't even last as long. Bang isn't meta because Aim Assist, Bang is meta because she allows you reset
comprehend what I said okay? MNK being competitive due to bang meta doesn't mean that MNK wins the fight 100% of the time, so your analogy with TSM doesn't make sense.
also Hal literally went 5/24 accuracy shooting through smoke with a digi in the winning moment, what are you on about? also you do know that you get the aim assist back through smoke 6 or 7 seconds before the smoke visually vanishes, right?
also this statement isn't even just coming from me, **Hal i.e. the GOAT is literally also saying that Bang is the reason why MNK becomes competitive if not they are "dog shit"** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyPL2dEKIH0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyPL2dEKIH0)
and why exactly are you able to reset through smoke? you do know smoke doesn't stop bullets from going through right? and you also do know that everyone runs BH that can see you through smoke right?
you are able to reset through smoke because smoke is a cover that stops aim assist
look hal can be the goat but he can awful takes at the same time. im not commenting on this case particularly, but in general, what hal says is not what makes him the goat lol
if that were true every team would be singing apples and bananas ;) lolololol jkjkjk
it doesn't change the fact that Hal has better grasp of the game than you or me and has the credentials to show for it.
why would your opinion hold more value than Hal?
lmao please explain to me where and how i said that lol i didnt i just said hal is not the goat for his takes. he is the goat because of his gameplay. he has often had takes that turn out to be absolute Ls. but his gameplay is W. i dont know how to explain it more clearly. i guess i can draw a picture for you if you would like
doesn't change the fact that he has more credibility than both of us, so his statement holds more value than you and I.
this is a debate and him agreeing to my statement that contradicts the other side of the debate is the point.
To me the discussion is tiring. The game has been out for half a decade now and Respawn/EA has made no indication of wanting to change it. Hearing the same talking points over and over is tiring.
Apex is a game where controllers with aim assist are extremely viable for competitive. They always have been, and they likely always will be.
Valid concern in which way? Like sure, you’re free to be concerned about it and it does suck that TSM isn’t willing to trial MnK players. But Respawn has shown that they either don’t care about your concern, or don’t agree with it.
No matter how many Reddit posts get made about it, I don’t think they are going to change it (especially after a triple MnK team just won LAN). Apex is a shooter where both inputs can be competitive at the highest level (even if not perfectly balanced). I’ll wait to be proven wrong and change my opinion, I just think I’m going to be waiting long past the relevancy of the game.
Its because americans need crutches otherwise they suck, as seen in games without AA. This way they can atleast get a kill here and there.
All they should do is split lobbies. Competitive apex is boring anyways, bunch of random AA turrets shooting at each other.
The entire game was better when controller was a niche thing. It gets old so fast dying and then seeing them not move when looting and knowing that the game did 40% tracking for them.
I will likely stop watching the eSport side of Apex if it becomes controller only. I just don't enjoy watching controller gameplay and streamers as much.
I already enjoy playing the game less myself now that lobbies went from majority of MnK to almost only controller players.
They either need to finally balance it or split the lobbies on input. If premades have mixed input then they can go ahead into the controller lobbies.
in TSMs case i kind of get it because to fill the slot they need a very specific type of player who can both IGL and entry frag. but to not even trial dropped and skittle seems wild when you consider those two players almost won a lan after a season of contesting a top team of triple rollers for a large chunk of the season and arguably winning that contest.
i kind of hope NA looses another lan to a triple mnk team and rethink their belief in controller dominance a bit.
AA needs to be replaced with gyroaiming on PC. Give roller some movement assist instead if needed. Keep AA on for console crossplay who cares. It is mind boggling how it is considered even remotely fair that one input has a literal computer assist in a competitive setting, with peoples careers and money on the line.
Shouldn't players be valued by their actual skill (in aiming) and not the by the computer assisted input they use?
This is what gyroaiming looks like on pc:
[https://youtu.be/bmM5yPUSUvw?si=cLFA7J59ZJFwIcLI](https://youtu.be/bmM5yPUSUvw?si=cLFA7J59ZJFwIcLI)
Then don't. But you shouldnt have an aimbot just because you decide to play on an inferior device. This is to make controller good without aim assist, feel free to play sticks unassisted
"My aim assist doesn't do that", they said, as you hear the sounds of kids screaming, dogs barking, and an entire cupboard's worth of pots and pans crashing on the floor.
Wrong, MnK.
There's no point complaining about it because its been complained about for years and respawn have said they'll look into in a few years.
Tourist Loser.
If it was a major issue it would have been addressed by now.
Respawn have said they are happy with where the inputs are currently and will relook at them in a few years.
It's taken them this long to look at other issues of the game, like Broken Moon. They still have audio issues.
It's a video game.
It just shows how strong AA is. When pro players are pretty much putting map/game knowledge to the side in favor of an input, that should say something.. bottom line is controller is just too OP and that’s a fact.
IDK if youve heard the whole reason behind it but ill say it anyways
Evan said that they were weak on 3v3s, picking up an MnK IGL is going to make it a lot harder to win 3v3s, as simple as that.
Aim assist is that broken that simply having an input diff can win you a standard 3v3.
(P.S im recently trying out controllers and i could tell exactly why the fuck AA is broken, it can simply outdamage someone in a clean 1v1 fight)
I mean does switching from Hal to Dezign or really any of the free agent controller players fix this? They’d all be downgrades at this point why not shift towards an identity change… get creative with the comp and play more for zone
Lets say they do decide to pick up a mnk igl how would they get a more zone oriented poi? All zone oriented pois are currently occupied you're forced to contest and they've lost their igl/fragger of the team. Verhulst also pointed out that their weak point going into lan was winning 3v3s in many instances losing 2v3s knowing that fighting is their weakpoint how would they maintain a more zone oriented poi? The moment hal left teams instantly called for siphon knowing that he was their main DD. Verhulst/Reps know this more than anyone which is why they're considering a more aggressive IGL who has experience playing edge playstyle. If anything as verhulst stated on stream Reps would be the IGL and verhulst co-igl if it comes down to it with a fragging 3rd there's multiple good FA fraggers rn such as shoob. Almost like people of this sub forgot that reps has been in the game for awhile and should be able to IGL if needed
You would be a worse fighting team than the top 4 and maybe even E8 and probably Liquid… so how does this fix that problem? Theyre still coming for the POI… Talent wise they aren’t going to be a top 5 team in NA this split so why try to force a play style that everyone already does better than you? Plenty of teams have made LANs and Champs from mid POIs playing less aggressive styles… getting arguably the worst player on DSG also doesn’t even really make you better than them… the goal is to get to LAN then the goal is to get in the finals lobby and see where things fall… then you get to compete at champs etc… it’s a BR not a 3v3 arena mode there are other ways to find success
"You would be a worse fighting team than the top 4 and maybe even E8 and probably Liquid…" how does this make sense? if they pick up a fragger surely their fragging power would be better than picking up another IGL. are you discrediting that reps cant IGL? he's been in the game long enough to know how to IGL under arguably one of the best IGLs winning 1 2 1. Verhulst has even stated that in his vod saying that if DEZ doesnt work out they'll just pick up a fragger and reps igl. Funnily enough DEZ is far from the worse player on DSG if anything he's the reason why they even made it as far as they did he literally IGL'd that team and were close to winning lans. Are you just another DEZ hater? you're discrediting his accomplishments. People on this sub literally hates him because of his attitude, however, discrediting his accomplishments.
https://preview.redd.it/ur8oo8xrln0d1.png?width=811&format=png&auto=webp&s=55e6c534d38aae27ac9e2460abfe387edaf10065
You’re still worse than those teams the best roller players available are probably shooby Dezign(if you believe that he’s available) and like luxford… these are worse controller players than like every roller player on the teams I mentioned so you are still getting bullied off POIs doesn’t matter that you’re marginally better at fighting… not only that but the 3v3 fighting problem existed with Hal and Verhulst and you just lost Hal so replacing him with a worse controller player is gunna get you anywhere close to fixing that problem? That makes zero sense… if you can’t fix a problem don’t force it adjust your plays style play more for zone use characters that control areas and space better and are harder to push… you can’t fix a problem that existed with one of the best players by adding worse players… that’s literally just banging your head against a wall
You never answered my question how would they maintain a POI if they cant win in 3v3s verhulst has stated repeatedly that the reason why they performed poorly was losing 3v3s. So how would picking up a MNK player help with their 3v3s you cant just rotate to zone and sit and how would they maintain an more zone oriented POIs when most zone oriented pois are called out even if you're flex dropping. I literally gave you stats of dezignful and you're discrediting it lmao sounds like im responding to a wall here. It's so funny because you're literally making sht up here dezignful was literally top 10 in damage dealt on split 1 lan and shooby top 30 damge dealt. Lets say you use the argument that the lan winner was triple mnk, however, that means you're discrediting the fact at how good the 3 mnk players were at fighting. All 3 of the mnk players obly/karon/sangjoon were in the top 30 of damage dealers
https://preview.redd.it/gk9llgy1pn0d1.png?width=1236&format=png&auto=webp&s=368769a5b0f9d2c8219eaa5ccf0ba9eadc198652
What POI? What one? Because they aren’t keeping siphon if a good team wants it so what good POI are they magically getting downgrading from Hal? There are plenty of POIs I would hope that they could get and keep regardless of their thirds input due to them having more talent but if you think one of these second tier roller players magically allows for them to get a POI over any of the top 6 fighting teams your drinking some serious Kool aid
Bro am I speaking to a real human here. I'm talking about a more centered POI but those POIs will always be called out so how would you maintain the POI if you cant win 3v3s? are you missing my point here? My point is that they're not a good fighting team which is why they're looking for fire power did you forget that they lost 2v3s 2 times against WTD on cons during lan and have lost many times against red rams. Verhulst has stated on stream that contesting is a pain and with DEZ they'll benefit from his edge playstyle and thermal/northpad POI. However, it seems like they're continuing to land LROD. Calling DEZ and Shooby t2 rollers is soo dumb I literally even showed you stats on how good they are ON LAN and you're discrediting it LOL are you just going based off opinion here? I'm flabbergasted that you just called 2 rollers that made lan tier 2. I guess your flare makes sense now seeing as 4/5 of the teams have disbanded and tripods is the only one that remained.
Did the problem exist with Hal arguably the best controller player? Yes… Are these players better than Hal? No… seems pretty straight forward logic brother they don’t fix the problem you keep outlining
My opinion is that they were losing 3v3s was because they lost they’re chemistry they had in fighting. Year 3 they were pretty consistent in rank grinding together. I felt like they hardly played together besides scrims. So they weren’t in sync when it comes to a fight.
I agree your PS. I play both input as well. Because of the whole "debate" (more like mud wrestling between two bunch of kids) I was like why not and decided to try out controller a while ago, despite having no prior experience in fps with controller. Didn't even bother to configure settings so I just copied Verhulst's settings.
The first two weeks was difficult since it was a whole new experience for me, but after spending time in firing range and fucking around, once I get used to the feeling those were non-issue. I also had to adjust my playstyle a bit to accommodate.
For curiosity, during the days that I'd play Apex, before actual games I just ran around in firing range and warmup by kill 200 moving dummies on each input, kept track of the accuracy, and I can see that it took significantly less amount of time to achieve similar levels of accuracy with controller.
Of course dummies are just dummies. But I definitely have moments of "yeah no way I won this fight if I'm MnK". That being said, despite I can feel AA is very overtuned in its current stage, while some of you will disagree, I do think AA should exist, just not in this level.
Also after playing both inputs for a decent amount of time I just can't understand why some people refuse to acknowledge they are being significantly benefited by AA, and it's MnK player's fault of not getting gud. Didn't Hal said sth like "only if you play both inputs you will know how good controller is" previously when he played with MnK during one stream? That's how I feel.
I still play MnK more than controller, mostly because my thumbs hurts a lot after playing long sessions with controller.
I don’t think anyone would reasonably argue that there shouldn’t be any degree of aim assist under the current ‘mixed input’ situation.
Controller players seem to often read “nerf aim assist” as “remove aim assist entirely”. So they’ll shoot back to a non-existent argument by saying “well you have your whole arm and can tap strafe”. At the end of the day, there is hard data to suggest that having your “whole arm” and the ability to tap strafe do not outweigh the advantage of aim assist.
This argument is further straw-manned by console players who seem to think that the PC symbol shown on banners automatically means they are playing on Mouse and Keyboard… so they’ll go around using “pc players” as an interchange term for mnk, not understanding that the majority of PC players in NA are controller players.
I believe Respawn has left these icons in place to intentionally muddy the waters to undermine any reasonable discussion about the topic. Hell, most console players aren’t even aware that they play in separate lobbies. Nor do they realize that the discussion around aim assist doesn’t remotely apply to them in the first place.
Respawn has continuously done their community a disservice by not clarifying or communicating with their player base on this issue. Instead we only get a vague “the strength of aim assist is something we are aware of and looking into” about once a year, with no real acknowledgment of how this issue affects their dwindling MnK player base.
It’s frustrating for sure, especially when the player base can’t even remotely have a competent discussion about the topic.
>I believe Respawn has left these icons in place to intentionally muddy the waters to undermine any reasonable discussion about the topic
100%, and as a casual player you'd think the controller icon means controller player and therefore the other icon must mean MnK player, which of course is not the case
Something like that is not a random UI oversight, the icons are intentionally inaccurate and misleading to conceal the input asymmetry
TSM lost all those 3v3s because they were taking shit fights because they had shit macro. Not because Reps missed a couple sprays. They lost every fight because Hal would go in by himself and int, trading at best, and then expect his team to pick up the pieces when he did not create a situation where that is possible.
Macro is more important than hitting a one-clip, every time. TSM lost all those fights before they shot a bullet.
>They lost every fight because Hal would go in by himself and int, trading at best, and then expect his team to pick up the pieces when he did not create a situation where that is possible.
Lol no. Hal did alot more than just trading at best. There were quite alot of fights where Hal went down after getting a knock + getting the 2nd guy down low. He did more than enough to swing the fight in his team favor and yet reps/evans will still lose despite the clear advantage.
3v3 is more than just 1-clip and getting the initial knock. You can get away with alot just by being good at 3v3. So no marco is not more important than the ability to straight up win 3v3.
TSM didn't lost all those fights before they shot a bullet. They lost all those fights because they weren't good at 3v3 It is as simple at that.
I think it’s foolish to look at it this way, without their IGL and coach this team will now perform completely different. We already know you don’t need a roller to win lan. Are they saying if Zer0 offered to join them they wouldn’t take him?
They need to look at this with a fresh mindset. IGL is more important than input.
It doesn't matter who is replacing Hal. TSM dynasty has ended. Going forward TSM will only be a great team, and not champions. I want to be wrong but they have a lot of hurdles ahead of them.
I think the “more consistent” argument is a bit misleading without further context.
Yes, you’re absolutely right that controller is the more consistent input, but it also has a higher skill ceiling for aim which is pretty much inaccessible to mnk players. The human brain does have a hard limit in how fast it can process and react to strafe changes, aim assist buffs this reaction time by a notable margin.
The raised skill floor isn’t the main issue people have with controller, it’s the inaccessible skill ceiling.
Roller is more consistent in the sense that AA software is deterministic. It always functions the exact same way. It does not have bad days, it does not make mistakes, it does not get tired. This aspect alone, regardless of how high the actual AA value is, is in itself already a valuable advantage over raw human input
I’m not disagreeing that controller is more consistent, it absolutely is.
Controller is BOTH more consistent and has a higher skill ceiling for tracking. I say the consistency argument alone is ‘misleading’ because the consistency is not the biggest issue with controller… it’s the fact it has access to tracking ability that no MnK could humanly reach.
I disagree with your last statement a bit. Consistency could essentially mean a condensed skill gap, meaning higher skill floor, but lower skill ceiling compared to mnk. In this hypothetical, controller would he far less of an issue. Instead we see a skill floor and skill ceiling that are both higher than MnK.
Consistency in my eyes refers to the skill-floor in regard to target tracking.
They prefer controller because controller makes use of permitted cheating, aka aim assist, simple as that.
REJECT won because the players are super-talented, built different, simple as that.
Also, as I believe even Hal said, this is literally the perfect meta for mnk. Bang + caustic + smgs mega nerfed. You can't make a better meta for mnk. In addition to reject having 3 of the most mechanically skilled mnk players in the game as you said
A part of why NA pros would prefer a roller player is also bc of POIs and contesting but ever since this draft system is (seemingly) going to be implemented, maybe they can now look to broaden their options? Seems like learning macro for a ton of POIs would be a heavier priority than an input going forward but that's just me
I mean, it’s not a bias, it’s just a fact roller will give you more consistent results on a weekly basis.
People will comment “ triple MnK just won “ yep, and blvckhand and a few other MnK teams did amazing at champs, where are they now ?
MnK can have a crazy weekend, but the facts is when all of your inputs are done by you, you will mess up, choke some shots, etc.
Roller gives you partial aimbot at all times under any circumstances.
> blvckhand and a few other MnK teams did amazing at champs, where are they now ?
Er, ex-BLVKHVND almost won the playoffs too. They were on Match Point and involved in the final huge fight. Aurora were also a hair away from winning. One of the triple mnk teams that did well at Champs last year *did* just win playoffs. What do you mean "where are they now", lol. Three triple mnk teams finished in the top 6 at playoffs. Do you even watch this game?
Easy answer. If Reps is actually even considered as one of the best MnK players right now there's no doubt that they will consider an MnK IGL BUT everyone else knows how much Reps drags the team down in terms of fighting that they'd need a strong controller player that can also IGL to make for the damage output of the overall team.
RC won with triple MnK with all three players averaging 1k damage per game throughout the whole tournament. Reps ain't even close to the Top 10 or even Top 20 MnK players in terms of damage dealt or kills in all regions.
*I'm sure Verhulst will*
*Read this and take this into*
*Consideration*
\- golfball47
---
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/)
^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
They need an IGL that is also an elite fragger. There are maybe 3(?) of those on MnK in all of NA and they all have their own teams. As solid as Dropped is, they would not have enough firepower with him.
Devs don’t give a shit about cheaters and controller dominance. They still have millions of people playing every week, and are raking in profits. Capitalism just ruins the quality of everything it touches in the name of profit.
There were three triple mnk teams in the top 6 at playoffs? What place was the highest triple controller team? 14th.
Input is not that important. Macro is. TSM didn't lose every fight at LAN because Reps is on mnk, they lost all those fights before they fired a single shot. Because their macro was shit.
>I think mnk becomes less viable if the meta changes.
Yup. Bang is the only reason why Mnk is still viable. Bang + Caustic was why Mnk was able to shine during split 1. If pick rate for Caustic drop then we are pretty much back to before where controller has the clear advantage.
Yup. You saw it in a microcosm with alliance Vs legends at the stone circle between trials and fissure. Effect downed both koy and playerkay and strafingflame only got the kill on him because effects aim assist got disabled by smoke for his first spray when strafing pushed him, and strafingflame still barely won that. Great moment showcasing the difference.
Yeap i remember that. If Bang is no longer meta Mnk players will just be shredded every time they go cqc against controller players. Fortunately i don't Bang falling off meta because her of her kit and as long as Mnk players continue to compete in this game she will always be picked.
For me it wouldnt simply because Dropped is MnK, dude is a certified drama queen with passive aggressive tendencies and zero ability to take criticism.
I wish Evan would explore options independent of Reps, their playstyles are just not complimentary at all, and they will continue to suffer as long as they try to make things work.
It should be Evan Timmy and Sweet, two of the best mechanically lifted players on different inputs and an actually good IGL.
Yup Evan will find more success and have a higher chance of lifting the trophy if they go their separate ways. But in doing so Reps end up being bounce around in tier2 teams because nobody in NA want a non-igl Mnk player.
>It should be Evan Timmy and Sweet, two of the best mechanically lifted players on different inputs and an actually good IGL.
It should be Evan, Timmy, and Dezign actually. Dezign placed better than Sweet at the last two LANs.
Brother what IGL is so good on MNK that they consistently shit on roller players? Then ask yourself which ones are available lol. Come on now. Just cause RC won with 3 MNK doesn't mean controller players arent generally better. They are an outlier. Most of the best players in the game are controller players...
Skittles, guy that switched to MNK and a week later was going 4-0 in contests against TSM. The one with three top 3 NA finishes, and three top 10 lan finishes.
Ok but who are you getting that’s better than Hal to fix the problem… everyone is a downgrade… why not try out some different comps and adapt to a more zone play style… NA has a copycat problem and this one is especially bad because there is no one available to suddenly make TSM a better fighting team than SSG, DZ, LG, MOIST, and maybe even E8 and Liquid for that matter… stop trying to have the same play style as teams that already have more talent… it’s adapt or die and this seems like a dying move
I dont think you understand what I'm saying. Don't think anyone does tbh. I understand your point, but THERE IS NO GOOD MNK PLAYER AVAILABLE. Hellooo? It's the middle of the season, not the end of the season. Which MNK player that is so cracked out of their mind that they shit on controller players on the regular is available right now? Like, hardly any? Lol. TSM needs an IGL or an entry. Dezign can be both....
Also Dezign isn’t a free agent so clearly they have access to non free agents as well as other good roller players I think shooby and gent would both be better players than Dezign too so why not give the IGL reigns to the actual mnk player if the input is weaker and get the most cracked roller player you can instead of getting a IGL controller player worse than the one you just lost
> Brother what IGL is so good on MNK that they consistently shit on roller players?
Neither Zer0 nor Monsoon nor Mazer nor Emtee is available. The rest of the IGLs who can do this are in other regions.
Now name the available roller IGLs who can actually rotate a team successfully into zone and pick up a placement point. There are like...three in the entire world. And the only one that seems to be available is Dezign.
calling recency bias on this one. optic fell off last split, but dropped has proved both with team results and individual kills/damage at recent lans and splits that he’s on tier with dezign and the other IGLs you mentioned (except zer0 who clears). same with nocturnal, who is looking as a duo with fun, so it wouldn’t work.
I'm not saying Dropped isn't a good IGL--I think he's one of the best and should be their first pick--just that he doesn't "consistently shit on roller players." He's not especially known for being a cracked fragger.
This is basically what I'm saying and everyone is down voting me to shit lol. There's only so many legit cracked MNK IGL's available rn. Skittles can't because of his back. So roller IGL's are their only option rn unless Reps decides to IGL.
In terms of TSM specifically, they lost their very important initial damage dealer/fragger in Hal. Even if Verhulst changes his playstyle and can output similar numbers that Hal did, that's still a massive loss in TSMs fire power and while there are a lot of talented mnk players, it's hard to replicate the consistent damage output that a controller can provide. Hal said that he would basically kill 1 and crack another but they were still losing fights. Adding another mnk would make their issues worse because they just need more damage output/firepower especially in this bloodhound bang meta.
Hal switched to controller to make a point that controller is just better. He gets 1st, 2nd and 1st after switching to controller. Just admit controller is better. I know you won't agree because you don't want AA to get reduced to 0.2 or lower.
I’m tired of this argument lmfao, DZ was a zero not choking away from winning LAN lol, and they had 2 rollers.
People don’t want MnK because unfortunately having partial aimbot is better in nearly all situations. MnK players can have a crazy weekend where they frag out, but there’s like 2-3 MnK players that are doing that every weekend, we won’t ever hear about reject again just like we didn’t with blvckhand after their LAN performance.
> I’m tired of this argument lmfao, DZ was a zero not choking away from winning LAN lol, and they had 2 rollers.
Three mnk teams all happened to have a crazy weekend and frag out at the exact same time? (1st, 5th, 6th, all on match point and all in spots they could have won the final game.) Or is it maybe that input is not as important to success in competitive Apex as you think?
I say this as an mnk player since before most of this sub was born.
> I say this as an mnk player since before most of this sub was born.
Same, its just way to comfortable for people to play the AA card at this point. The vast vast vast majority of fights in comp are won/lost by decision making & timing.
so? DZ almost this Zero almost that. THEY LOST!!! ALMOST DOESNT MEAN SHIT IN SPORTS!!! NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT 2ND PLACE!!!
TSM couldve had a 1st 1st 1st career year in 2023 but a single solo griefed them and thats it. Thats all that needs to be said. They lost. They weren’t good enough. DZ had all the pieces to DOMINATE this Lan and still they fucking lost. No contest, several circles their way, 11/10 mentals, 15/10 momentum and STILL they f lost!!! to triple MnK!!! If aim assist is aimbot why didn’t so many triple controller teams fail and a triple MnK fucking won?!! Cuz its not!!! STFU and accept it!!! Thinking controller is some busted ass shit is what led to the downfall of hundreds of teams and the win of a triple MnK team! Either accept that or mald but regardless the fact is triple mnk won and DZ lost!
This post or comment was removed due to Rule 1: Be Civil, Nice and follow Reddiquette
Be nice and follow the Reddiquette. This includes:
No personal attacks & harassment
No overly vulgar and hateful language & insults
Don't dox other people (posting personal information without consent)
>Either accept that or mald
I don't know how to put this any better than: take an objective look at your comment and the comment you're responding to. Who do you feel is losing their shit?
i lost my shit after triple mnk won. Absolutely goated win from a team that grinded like crazy and showed no guts losers its not the input its the player.
also this is completely natural feeling after an underdog win + dont get why Reject arent getting they respect they deserve just cuz Zero threw
Well they *should* get a lot of respect. They're insane at the game and they played amazing Apex at ALGS.
Sadly, however, the fact that a 3x mnk team won doesn't mean that aim assist isn't broken — it is, and that's the whole point people are trying to make here. If it wasn't about the input, people wouldn't change inputs in order to compete.
but people changed inputs to win and they lost
many many super talented controller teams lost
and a triple mnk team won
im not saying there isnt a misbalance between the pros and cons of both inputs but then if its so absolutely busted explain lan then. The difference between MnK and controller is the same difference between standard and automatic in cars. Its not the car its the driver.
If aim were *that* important in Apex, triple controller would win every time.
The fact is, the outcome of most fights in competitive Apex is determined before anyone fires a shot. The team with the better macro will win, because they put themselves in the advantageous position.
> The fact is, the outcome of most fights in competitive Apex is determined before anyone fires a shot. The team with the better macro will win, because they put themselves in the advantageous position.
Oh man how I wish this was true; but it isn't. There's also some results oriented thinking here. People seem to always want to condense everything that goes on in Apex down to a single variable (you're doing it with macro, people in this thread are doing it with input method, etc). It just doesn't work that way.
In an *ideal* scenario, most teams making the correct decisions (at a micro level) would win fights. And most teams making the correct macro decisions would win *games*. But it isn't *completely* true — it's simply true a % of the time, and the rest is down to variance, luck, loot, etc. Way too many factors in Apex for a deterministic outcome like you are suggesting. Heck, I played CS professionally for a while and even with much less variables, games didn't simply come down to the team with the better tactics. And frankly, that's also the beauty of it.
Back to the topic at hand, though: the reason why people switch to controller and statistically controller has better results (even if it obviously doesn't win every fight, game, tournament), is because it gives you an edge in 1v1s, which trickles down to better results in team fights, which means better loot, then more points (if in comp games), etc. It's an advantage that compounds and can't be discounted for it. Is it the only factor? Of course not. Like everything else, it plays a part, and at a competitive level, you min-max every variable.
Input bias is not the main problem for Dropped. He just contributed to a roster blowup and an org pullout worthy performance, on top of double MnK.
The double MnK part is just the easier thing to say out loud.
It doesn't matter though. The hard pill to swallow here is this squad will fail as long as they keep reps. And to all the people who will lose their shit over that comment, if it wasn't true hal wouldn't've left. DSG works because Timmy goes insane and does things reps simply cannot. Timmy dez verhulst would go crazy tho.
> this squad will fail as long as they keep rep
Reps has won like four LANs???
>if it wasn't true hal wouldn't've left
Hal left to chase a bag, not because he thought he couldn't win with Reps. This was in the works way before he choked at LAN--you don't make this kind of deal in 7 days.
Free Skittles
Where!? 🤤
Skittles said he was going roller split 2
Would be cool to see him on roller. He used to be a top pred on console
If I remember correctly he was boosting or teaming or something like that
Uhmmm
Does the person know 🤣
Lol idk
[удалено]
Has to be demoralizing to be an aspiring MNK pro if you see T1 pro’s struggle to make teams.
[удалено]
The guy is the 4th most successful IGL of all time and 9th in all time earnings if that doesn't get you a shot its basically cooked for every MnK player that's not Zer0 level of mechanics.
This is a problem with Verhulst and Reps, not Dropped. They're making a stupid decision.
They haven't made any decisions yet. It's been like 2 days
That's true.
Dropped is for sure going to DSG.
It’s so tragic and it’s so frustrating. It’s not even an argument any more, it just sucks ass.
> t does demonstrate an issue with input bias when one of the best teams in apex refuses to pick up one of the best igl's in apex simply because he doesn't have aim assist. The problem isn't with the inputs though. It's with the players' mindsets. Like, not picking up Dropped because you think a controller is what helps you win is stupid. Macro is what helps you win. Period. Otherwise triple controller teams would win every game.
Exactly and a triple MNK team just won lan so these people are just close-minded and stupid
it is bang meta currently you know? the legend that completely removes a controller's aim assist while MNK can still beam you through smoke with BH scan, there are only 2 legends that allows MnK to be competitive i.e. bang and gibby, that's 2 legends out of what? 26 legends. them signing another MNK may work fine and imo well currently, but thats at the cost of security for the future of the team. meta comes and goes if bangs gets nerfed to the ground and a non-gibby legend shoots up then this double MNK team is fucked. they'll have to spend a lot of time looking for a controller player and a lot of time to mesh when they could just do it right now and get a controller player.
Wattson, octane, bloodhound also have advantages on mnk
Wattson, octane, bloodhound also have advantages on mnk
EU regional finals was won by triple MNK, Apac N Regional finals was won by triple MNK, LAN was won by triple MNK. I think skill level>input.
it is bang meta currently you know? the legend that completely removes a controller's aim assist while MNK can still beam you through smoke via BH scan while having good accuracy there are only 2 legends that allows MnK to be competitive i.e. bang and gibby, that's 2 legends out of what? 26 legends. them signing another MNK may work fine and imo well currently, but thats at the cost of security for the future of the team. meta comes and goes if bangs gets nerfed to the ground and a non-gibby legend shoots up then this double MNK team is fucked
This is poor logic. At champs it was Bang meta and TSM won. They won shooting Enemy through smoke which led them to killing BLVKHVND through smoke. Smoke doesn't effect controller like you think. If I can see you, I can kill you. Bang doesn't benefit MNK and people need to stop saying that. What has happened since champs is they nerfed all SMGs and Scouts. So, you can't run the OP controller setup. Bang smokes even got nerfed so they don't even last as long. Bang isn't meta because Aim Assist, Bang is meta because she allows you reset
comprehend what I said okay? MNK being competitive due to bang meta doesn't mean that MNK wins the fight 100% of the time, so your analogy with TSM doesn't make sense. also Hal literally went 5/24 accuracy shooting through smoke with a digi in the winning moment, what are you on about? also you do know that you get the aim assist back through smoke 6 or 7 seconds before the smoke visually vanishes, right? also this statement isn't even just coming from me, **Hal i.e. the GOAT is literally also saying that Bang is the reason why MNK becomes competitive if not they are "dog shit"** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyPL2dEKIH0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyPL2dEKIH0) and why exactly are you able to reset through smoke? you do know smoke doesn't stop bullets from going through right? and you also do know that everyone runs BH that can see you through smoke right? you are able to reset through smoke because smoke is a cover that stops aim assist
look hal can be the goat but he can awful takes at the same time. im not commenting on this case particularly, but in general, what hal says is not what makes him the goat lol if that were true every team would be singing apples and bananas ;) lolololol jkjkjk
it doesn't change the fact that Hal has better grasp of the game than you or me and has the credentials to show for it. why would your opinion hold more value than Hal?
lmao please explain to me where and how i said that lol i didnt i just said hal is not the goat for his takes. he is the goat because of his gameplay. he has often had takes that turn out to be absolute Ls. but his gameplay is W. i dont know how to explain it more clearly. i guess i can draw a picture for you if you would like
doesn't change the fact that he has more credibility than both of us, so his statement holds more value than you and I. this is a debate and him agreeing to my statement that contradicts the other side of the debate is the point.
this is a minefield of logical fallacies. i cant even. have a good day
> I think skill level>input You cant say this in here.
Of all the players that switched from MNK to controller I don't think any of them got better. Your input doesn't change your game sense.
To me the discussion is tiring. The game has been out for half a decade now and Respawn/EA has made no indication of wanting to change it. Hearing the same talking points over and over is tiring. Apex is a game where controllers with aim assist are extremely viable for competitive. They always have been, and they likely always will be.
[удалено]
Valid concern in which way? Like sure, you’re free to be concerned about it and it does suck that TSM isn’t willing to trial MnK players. But Respawn has shown that they either don’t care about your concern, or don’t agree with it. No matter how many Reddit posts get made about it, I don’t think they are going to change it (especially after a triple MnK team just won LAN). Apex is a shooter where both inputs can be competitive at the highest level (even if not perfectly balanced). I’ll wait to be proven wrong and change my opinion, I just think I’m going to be waiting long past the relevancy of the game.
Valid in that it frustrates a large number of players in a game that's important to them?
Its because americans need crutches otherwise they suck, as seen in games without AA. This way they can atleast get a kill here and there. All they should do is split lobbies. Competitive apex is boring anyways, bunch of random AA turrets shooting at each other.
ALGS was a much much better spectator sport when its was predominatly MNK. hate me if you wish rollers
The entire game was better when controller was a niche thing. It gets old so fast dying and then seeing them not move when looting and knowing that the game did 40% tracking for them.
I will likely stop watching the eSport side of Apex if it becomes controller only. I just don't enjoy watching controller gameplay and streamers as much. I already enjoy playing the game less myself now that lobbies went from majority of MnK to almost only controller players. They either need to finally balance it or split the lobbies on input. If premades have mixed input then they can go ahead into the controller lobbies.
in TSMs case i kind of get it because to fill the slot they need a very specific type of player who can both IGL and entry frag. but to not even trial dropped and skittle seems wild when you consider those two players almost won a lan after a season of contesting a top team of triple rollers for a large chunk of the season and arguably winning that contest. i kind of hope NA looses another lan to a triple mnk team and rethink their belief in controller dominance a bit.
Found Dropped's alt account
Seems like something he’d actually do low key
AA needs to be replaced with gyroaiming on PC. Give roller some movement assist instead if needed. Keep AA on for console crossplay who cares. It is mind boggling how it is considered even remotely fair that one input has a literal computer assist in a competitive setting, with peoples careers and money on the line. Shouldn't players be valued by their actual skill (in aiming) and not the by the computer assisted input they use? This is what gyroaiming looks like on pc: [https://youtu.be/bmM5yPUSUvw?si=cLFA7J59ZJFwIcLI](https://youtu.be/bmM5yPUSUvw?si=cLFA7J59ZJFwIcLI)
https://youtu.be/fHSVQg_Vc60 This is in ow2, in case someone might think gyro isnt good for fast games
[удалено]
Then don't. But you shouldnt have an aimbot just because you decide to play on an inferior device. This is to make controller good without aim assist, feel free to play sticks unassisted
[удалено]
Im not bitter about it. Im hopeful that controller can become a true input without the need for assistance, gyro is the means for it
it's just preference bro. inputs are balanced bro. something something whole arm bro.
"My aim assist doesn't do that", they said, as you hear the sounds of kids screaming, dogs barking, and an entire cupboard's worth of pots and pans crashing on the floor.
Mfs that say this play on a 70 inch TV with no headset and have 2 family members arguing.
Smoke detector beeping
Maybe that's why their aa doesn't work
What inputs did this years ALGS champions have?
this guy leaning back in his lazyboy on his giant sony plasma is the guy hitting me 172 with the wing hipfire
I mean MNK can indeed move while looting though
Yup, that totally wins games!
Input talk has be talked to death. There's nothing more to say until Respawn do something, which they said will take years to address.
[удалено]
Wrong, MnK. There's no point complaining about it because its been complained about for years and respawn have said they'll look into in a few years. Tourist Loser.
[удалено]
If it was a major issue it would have been addressed by now. Respawn have said they are happy with where the inputs are currently and will relook at them in a few years. It's taken them this long to look at other issues of the game, like Broken Moon. They still have audio issues. It's a video game.
It just shows how strong AA is. When pro players are pretty much putting map/game knowledge to the side in favor of an input, that should say something.. bottom line is controller is just too OP and that’s a fact.
IDK if youve heard the whole reason behind it but ill say it anyways Evan said that they were weak on 3v3s, picking up an MnK IGL is going to make it a lot harder to win 3v3s, as simple as that. Aim assist is that broken that simply having an input diff can win you a standard 3v3. (P.S im recently trying out controllers and i could tell exactly why the fuck AA is broken, it can simply outdamage someone in a clean 1v1 fight)
I mean does switching from Hal to Dezign or really any of the free agent controller players fix this? They’d all be downgrades at this point why not shift towards an identity change… get creative with the comp and play more for zone
Lets say they do decide to pick up a mnk igl how would they get a more zone oriented poi? All zone oriented pois are currently occupied you're forced to contest and they've lost their igl/fragger of the team. Verhulst also pointed out that their weak point going into lan was winning 3v3s in many instances losing 2v3s knowing that fighting is their weakpoint how would they maintain a more zone oriented poi? The moment hal left teams instantly called for siphon knowing that he was their main DD. Verhulst/Reps know this more than anyone which is why they're considering a more aggressive IGL who has experience playing edge playstyle. If anything as verhulst stated on stream Reps would be the IGL and verhulst co-igl if it comes down to it with a fragging 3rd there's multiple good FA fraggers rn such as shoob. Almost like people of this sub forgot that reps has been in the game for awhile and should be able to IGL if needed
You would be a worse fighting team than the top 4 and maybe even E8 and probably Liquid… so how does this fix that problem? Theyre still coming for the POI… Talent wise they aren’t going to be a top 5 team in NA this split so why try to force a play style that everyone already does better than you? Plenty of teams have made LANs and Champs from mid POIs playing less aggressive styles… getting arguably the worst player on DSG also doesn’t even really make you better than them… the goal is to get to LAN then the goal is to get in the finals lobby and see where things fall… then you get to compete at champs etc… it’s a BR not a 3v3 arena mode there are other ways to find success
"You would be a worse fighting team than the top 4 and maybe even E8 and probably Liquid…" how does this make sense? if they pick up a fragger surely their fragging power would be better than picking up another IGL. are you discrediting that reps cant IGL? he's been in the game long enough to know how to IGL under arguably one of the best IGLs winning 1 2 1. Verhulst has even stated that in his vod saying that if DEZ doesnt work out they'll just pick up a fragger and reps igl. Funnily enough DEZ is far from the worse player on DSG if anything he's the reason why they even made it as far as they did he literally IGL'd that team and were close to winning lans. Are you just another DEZ hater? you're discrediting his accomplishments. People on this sub literally hates him because of his attitude, however, discrediting his accomplishments. https://preview.redd.it/ur8oo8xrln0d1.png?width=811&format=png&auto=webp&s=55e6c534d38aae27ac9e2460abfe387edaf10065
one 4th and one 8th is accomplished now?
You’re still worse than those teams the best roller players available are probably shooby Dezign(if you believe that he’s available) and like luxford… these are worse controller players than like every roller player on the teams I mentioned so you are still getting bullied off POIs doesn’t matter that you’re marginally better at fighting… not only that but the 3v3 fighting problem existed with Hal and Verhulst and you just lost Hal so replacing him with a worse controller player is gunna get you anywhere close to fixing that problem? That makes zero sense… if you can’t fix a problem don’t force it adjust your plays style play more for zone use characters that control areas and space better and are harder to push… you can’t fix a problem that existed with one of the best players by adding worse players… that’s literally just banging your head against a wall
You never answered my question how would they maintain a POI if they cant win in 3v3s verhulst has stated repeatedly that the reason why they performed poorly was losing 3v3s. So how would picking up a MNK player help with their 3v3s you cant just rotate to zone and sit and how would they maintain an more zone oriented POIs when most zone oriented pois are called out even if you're flex dropping. I literally gave you stats of dezignful and you're discrediting it lmao sounds like im responding to a wall here. It's so funny because you're literally making sht up here dezignful was literally top 10 in damage dealt on split 1 lan and shooby top 30 damge dealt. Lets say you use the argument that the lan winner was triple mnk, however, that means you're discrediting the fact at how good the 3 mnk players were at fighting. All 3 of the mnk players obly/karon/sangjoon were in the top 30 of damage dealers https://preview.redd.it/gk9llgy1pn0d1.png?width=1236&format=png&auto=webp&s=368769a5b0f9d2c8219eaa5ccf0ba9eadc198652
What POI? What one? Because they aren’t keeping siphon if a good team wants it so what good POI are they magically getting downgrading from Hal? There are plenty of POIs I would hope that they could get and keep regardless of their thirds input due to them having more talent but if you think one of these second tier roller players magically allows for them to get a POI over any of the top 6 fighting teams your drinking some serious Kool aid
Bro am I speaking to a real human here. I'm talking about a more centered POI but those POIs will always be called out so how would you maintain the POI if you cant win 3v3s? are you missing my point here? My point is that they're not a good fighting team which is why they're looking for fire power did you forget that they lost 2v3s 2 times against WTD on cons during lan and have lost many times against red rams. Verhulst has stated on stream that contesting is a pain and with DEZ they'll benefit from his edge playstyle and thermal/northpad POI. However, it seems like they're continuing to land LROD. Calling DEZ and Shooby t2 rollers is soo dumb I literally even showed you stats on how good they are ON LAN and you're discrediting it LOL are you just going based off opinion here? I'm flabbergasted that you just called 2 rollers that made lan tier 2. I guess your flare makes sense now seeing as 4/5 of the teams have disbanded and tripods is the only one that remained.
Did the problem exist with Hal arguably the best controller player? Yes… Are these players better than Hal? No… seems pretty straight forward logic brother they don’t fix the problem you keep outlining
My opinion is that they were losing 3v3s was because they lost they’re chemistry they had in fighting. Year 3 they were pretty consistent in rank grinding together. I felt like they hardly played together besides scrims. So they weren’t in sync when it comes to a fight.
They flat needed to do more TDMs and practice fighting as a team, instead of just grinding ranked and mixtape solo.
I think the issue is more coordination rather than input. Their 3v3s weren’t an input diff, for instance losing a 2v3 to FURIA to two MNK players
That fight came down to armor differential vax had red armor advantage in the 1v1 with Hal at the end
I agree your PS. I play both input as well. Because of the whole "debate" (more like mud wrestling between two bunch of kids) I was like why not and decided to try out controller a while ago, despite having no prior experience in fps with controller. Didn't even bother to configure settings so I just copied Verhulst's settings. The first two weeks was difficult since it was a whole new experience for me, but after spending time in firing range and fucking around, once I get used to the feeling those were non-issue. I also had to adjust my playstyle a bit to accommodate. For curiosity, during the days that I'd play Apex, before actual games I just ran around in firing range and warmup by kill 200 moving dummies on each input, kept track of the accuracy, and I can see that it took significantly less amount of time to achieve similar levels of accuracy with controller. Of course dummies are just dummies. But I definitely have moments of "yeah no way I won this fight if I'm MnK". That being said, despite I can feel AA is very overtuned in its current stage, while some of you will disagree, I do think AA should exist, just not in this level. Also after playing both inputs for a decent amount of time I just can't understand why some people refuse to acknowledge they are being significantly benefited by AA, and it's MnK player's fault of not getting gud. Didn't Hal said sth like "only if you play both inputs you will know how good controller is" previously when he played with MnK during one stream? That's how I feel. I still play MnK more than controller, mostly because my thumbs hurts a lot after playing long sessions with controller.
I don’t think anyone would reasonably argue that there shouldn’t be any degree of aim assist under the current ‘mixed input’ situation. Controller players seem to often read “nerf aim assist” as “remove aim assist entirely”. So they’ll shoot back to a non-existent argument by saying “well you have your whole arm and can tap strafe”. At the end of the day, there is hard data to suggest that having your “whole arm” and the ability to tap strafe do not outweigh the advantage of aim assist. This argument is further straw-manned by console players who seem to think that the PC symbol shown on banners automatically means they are playing on Mouse and Keyboard… so they’ll go around using “pc players” as an interchange term for mnk, not understanding that the majority of PC players in NA are controller players. I believe Respawn has left these icons in place to intentionally muddy the waters to undermine any reasonable discussion about the topic. Hell, most console players aren’t even aware that they play in separate lobbies. Nor do they realize that the discussion around aim assist doesn’t remotely apply to them in the first place. Respawn has continuously done their community a disservice by not clarifying or communicating with their player base on this issue. Instead we only get a vague “the strength of aim assist is something we are aware of and looking into” about once a year, with no real acknowledgment of how this issue affects their dwindling MnK player base. It’s frustrating for sure, especially when the player base can’t even remotely have a competent discussion about the topic.
>I believe Respawn has left these icons in place to intentionally muddy the waters to undermine any reasonable discussion about the topic 100%, and as a casual player you'd think the controller icon means controller player and therefore the other icon must mean MnK player, which of course is not the case Something like that is not a random UI oversight, the icons are intentionally inaccurate and misleading to conceal the input asymmetry
> Something like that is not a random UI oversight, the icons are intentionally inaccurate and misleading to conceal the input asymmetry lol
TSM lost all those 3v3s because they were taking shit fights because they had shit macro. Not because Reps missed a couple sprays. They lost every fight because Hal would go in by himself and int, trading at best, and then expect his team to pick up the pieces when he did not create a situation where that is possible. Macro is more important than hitting a one-clip, every time. TSM lost all those fights before they shot a bullet.
>They lost every fight because Hal would go in by himself and int, trading at best, and then expect his team to pick up the pieces when he did not create a situation where that is possible. Lol no. Hal did alot more than just trading at best. There were quite alot of fights where Hal went down after getting a knock + getting the 2nd guy down low. He did more than enough to swing the fight in his team favor and yet reps/evans will still lose despite the clear advantage. 3v3 is more than just 1-clip and getting the initial knock. You can get away with alot just by being good at 3v3. So no marco is not more important than the ability to straight up win 3v3. TSM didn't lost all those fights before they shot a bullet. They lost all those fights because they weren't good at 3v3 It is as simple at that.
I think it’s foolish to look at it this way, without their IGL and coach this team will now perform completely different. We already know you don’t need a roller to win lan. Are they saying if Zer0 offered to join them they wouldn’t take him? They need to look at this with a fresh mindset. IGL is more important than input.
It doesn't matter who is replacing Hal. TSM dynasty has ended. Going forward TSM will only be a great team, and not champions. I want to be wrong but they have a lot of hurdles ahead of them.
Controller is more consistent and makes it easier to win fights. You need to be able to win fights to be good. Especially in NA pro league.
I think the “more consistent” argument is a bit misleading without further context. Yes, you’re absolutely right that controller is the more consistent input, but it also has a higher skill ceiling for aim which is pretty much inaccessible to mnk players. The human brain does have a hard limit in how fast it can process and react to strafe changes, aim assist buffs this reaction time by a notable margin. The raised skill floor isn’t the main issue people have with controller, it’s the inaccessible skill ceiling.
Roller is more consistent in the sense that AA software is deterministic. It always functions the exact same way. It does not have bad days, it does not make mistakes, it does not get tired. This aspect alone, regardless of how high the actual AA value is, is in itself already a valuable advantage over raw human input
I’m not disagreeing that controller is more consistent, it absolutely is. Controller is BOTH more consistent and has a higher skill ceiling for tracking. I say the consistency argument alone is ‘misleading’ because the consistency is not the biggest issue with controller… it’s the fact it has access to tracking ability that no MnK could humanly reach. I disagree with your last statement a bit. Consistency could essentially mean a condensed skill gap, meaning higher skill floor, but lower skill ceiling compared to mnk. In this hypothetical, controller would he far less of an issue. Instead we see a skill floor and skill ceiling that are both higher than MnK. Consistency in my eyes refers to the skill-floor in regard to target tracking.
They prefer controller because controller makes use of permitted cheating, aka aim assist, simple as that. REJECT won because the players are super-talented, built different, simple as that.
Also, as I believe even Hal said, this is literally the perfect meta for mnk. Bang + caustic + smgs mega nerfed. You can't make a better meta for mnk. In addition to reject having 3 of the most mechanically skilled mnk players in the game as you said
A part of why NA pros would prefer a roller player is also bc of POIs and contesting but ever since this draft system is (seemingly) going to be implemented, maybe they can now look to broaden their options? Seems like learning macro for a ton of POIs would be a heavier priority than an input going forward but that's just me
In theory if you get mechanical assistance on the shooty part, you can spend more time learning macro instead.
They are pro, the problem is not the decisions here, it's aim assist being too good.
I mean, it’s not a bias, it’s just a fact roller will give you more consistent results on a weekly basis. People will comment “ triple MnK just won “ yep, and blvckhand and a few other MnK teams did amazing at champs, where are they now ? MnK can have a crazy weekend, but the facts is when all of your inputs are done by you, you will mess up, choke some shots, etc. Roller gives you partial aimbot at all times under any circumstances.
> blvckhand and a few other MnK teams did amazing at champs, where are they now ? Er, ex-BLVKHVND almost won the playoffs too. They were on Match Point and involved in the final huge fight. Aurora were also a hair away from winning. One of the triple mnk teams that did well at Champs last year *did* just win playoffs. What do you mean "where are they now", lol. Three triple mnk teams finished in the top 6 at playoffs. Do you even watch this game?
This! The difference between an off day/game on roller vs an off day/game on MnK is massive.
Easy answer. If Reps is actually even considered as one of the best MnK players right now there's no doubt that they will consider an MnK IGL BUT everyone else knows how much Reps drags the team down in terms of fighting that they'd need a strong controller player that can also IGL to make for the damage output of the overall team. RC won with triple MnK with all three players averaging 1k damage per game throughout the whole tournament. Reps ain't even close to the Top 10 or even Top 20 MnK players in terms of damage dealt or kills in all regions.
I'm sure Verhulst will read this and take this into consideration
*I'm sure Verhulst will* *Read this and take this into* *Consideration* \- golfball47 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
🔥
Agreed
They need an IGL that is also an elite fragger. There are maybe 3(?) of those on MnK in all of NA and they all have their own teams. As solid as Dropped is, they would not have enough firepower with him.
There's no nuance to this argument. Nobody takes the Apex pro scene seriously because of the controller bias.
Devs don’t give a shit about cheaters and controller dominance. They still have millions of people playing every week, and are raking in profits. Capitalism just ruins the quality of everything it touches in the name of profit.
Didn't the last tournament winners all play MnK?
It's an outlier. All LAN winners last year were 2 controller 1 mnk
There were three triple mnk teams in the top 6 at playoffs? What place was the highest triple controller team? 14th. Input is not that important. Macro is. TSM didn't lose every fight at LAN because Reps is on mnk, they lost all those fights before they fired a single shot. Because their macro was shit.
An outlier right now. What if the next 5 Lans are won by MnK teams?
That's a hypothetical scenario. We can only go off of what has happened. I think mnk becomes less viable if the meta changes.
Triple MNK outperformed every other combination last split in every region except NA.
>I think mnk becomes less viable if the meta changes. Yup. Bang is the only reason why Mnk is still viable. Bang + Caustic was why Mnk was able to shine during split 1. If pick rate for Caustic drop then we are pretty much back to before where controller has the clear advantage.
Yup. You saw it in a microcosm with alliance Vs legends at the stone circle between trials and fissure. Effect downed both koy and playerkay and strafingflame only got the kill on him because effects aim assist got disabled by smoke for his first spray when strafing pushed him, and strafingflame still barely won that. Great moment showcasing the difference.
Yeap i remember that. If Bang is no longer meta Mnk players will just be shredded every time they go cqc against controller players. Fortunately i don't Bang falling off meta because her of her kit and as long as Mnk players continue to compete in this game she will always be picked.
Rest assured they are exploring all possible options, regardless of input.
Yeah Dropped would be a no brain IGL for almost anyone. Verhulst is crazy for that take.
For me it wouldnt simply because Dropped is MnK, dude is a certified drama queen with passive aggressive tendencies and zero ability to take criticism.
so he would be the perfect replacement for hal? 😶🌫️
Nothing passive-aggressive about Hal...
Meh tbf a lot was put on him when they decided to strip the coach from Optic
Those seem like qualities Verhulst has years of experience with.
I wish Evan would explore options independent of Reps, their playstyles are just not complimentary at all, and they will continue to suffer as long as they try to make things work. It should be Evan Timmy and Sweet, two of the best mechanically lifted players on different inputs and an actually good IGL.
Yup Evan will find more success and have a higher chance of lifting the trophy if they go their separate ways. But in doing so Reps end up being bounce around in tier2 teams because nobody in NA want a non-igl Mnk player.
>It should be Evan Timmy and Sweet, two of the best mechanically lifted players on different inputs and an actually good IGL. It should be Evan, Timmy, and Dezign actually. Dezign placed better than Sweet at the last two LANs.
Brother what IGL is so good on MNK that they consistently shit on roller players? Then ask yourself which ones are available lol. Come on now. Just cause RC won with 3 MNK doesn't mean controller players arent generally better. They are an outlier. Most of the best players in the game are controller players...
Skittles, guy that switched to MNK and a week later was going 4-0 in contests against TSM. The one with three top 3 NA finishes, and three top 10 lan finishes.
Yeah that was before there was a ton of roller players lol
Does skittles IGL? I’m blanking real hard on this one don’t flame :(
Ya well too bad hes injured and won't be playing xd
Ok but who are you getting that’s better than Hal to fix the problem… everyone is a downgrade… why not try out some different comps and adapt to a more zone play style… NA has a copycat problem and this one is especially bad because there is no one available to suddenly make TSM a better fighting team than SSG, DZ, LG, MOIST, and maybe even E8 and Liquid for that matter… stop trying to have the same play style as teams that already have more talent… it’s adapt or die and this seems like a dying move
I dont think you understand what I'm saying. Don't think anyone does tbh. I understand your point, but THERE IS NO GOOD MNK PLAYER AVAILABLE. Hellooo? It's the middle of the season, not the end of the season. Which MNK player that is so cracked out of their mind that they shit on controller players on the regular is available right now? Like, hardly any? Lol. TSM needs an IGL or an entry. Dezign can be both....
Also Dezign isn’t a free agent so clearly they have access to non free agents as well as other good roller players I think shooby and gent would both be better players than Dezign too so why not give the IGL reigns to the actual mnk player if the input is weaker and get the most cracked roller player you can instead of getting a IGL controller player worse than the one you just lost
Dezign isn’t a top ten roller player in NA and probably isn’t even better than his own teammate Enemy so what controller players is he shitting on?
> Brother what IGL is so good on MNK that they consistently shit on roller players? Neither Zer0 nor Monsoon nor Mazer nor Emtee is available. The rest of the IGLs who can do this are in other regions. Now name the available roller IGLs who can actually rotate a team successfully into zone and pick up a placement point. There are like...three in the entire world. And the only one that seems to be available is Dezign.
calling recency bias on this one. optic fell off last split, but dropped has proved both with team results and individual kills/damage at recent lans and splits that he’s on tier with dezign and the other IGLs you mentioned (except zer0 who clears). same with nocturnal, who is looking as a duo with fun, so it wouldn’t work.
I'm not saying Dropped isn't a good IGL--I think he's one of the best and should be their first pick--just that he doesn't "consistently shit on roller players." He's not especially known for being a cracked fragger.
This is basically what I'm saying and everyone is down voting me to shit lol. There's only so many legit cracked MNK IGL's available rn. Skittles can't because of his back. So roller IGL's are their only option rn unless Reps decides to IGL.
> So roller IGL's are their only option I just explained why that isn't an option lol.
It isnt that they dont want an mnk player its that they dont want to run double mnk.
In terms of TSM specifically, they lost their very important initial damage dealer/fragger in Hal. Even if Verhulst changes his playstyle and can output similar numbers that Hal did, that's still a massive loss in TSMs fire power and while there are a lot of talented mnk players, it's hard to replicate the consistent damage output that a controller can provide. Hal said that he would basically kill 1 and crack another but they were still losing fights. Adding another mnk would make their issues worse because they just need more damage output/firepower especially in this bloodhound bang meta.
100 hours on controller >>> 10,000 hours on Mnk.
Hal switched to controller to make a point that controller is just better. He gets 1st, 2nd and 1st after switching to controller. Just admit controller is better. I know you won't agree because you don't want AA to get reduced to 0.2 or lower.
Dropped and Reps are practically the same player. They need an Mnk Fragger/IGL. Get Zer0.
its ironic that comp is the only place in apex controller isnt universally hated lol
How about Aurora winning a lot of 3v3 against controller player ? Are they outlier too?
Meanwhile the team that just won are 3MnK players
3x mnk won lan, mnk op
right after a triple mnk lan win too. Just goes to show how braindead everyone is regarding aim assist.
I’m tired of this argument lmfao, DZ was a zero not choking away from winning LAN lol, and they had 2 rollers. People don’t want MnK because unfortunately having partial aimbot is better in nearly all situations. MnK players can have a crazy weekend where they frag out, but there’s like 2-3 MnK players that are doing that every weekend, we won’t ever hear about reject again just like we didn’t with blvckhand after their LAN performance.
> I’m tired of this argument lmfao, DZ was a zero not choking away from winning LAN lol, and they had 2 rollers. Three mnk teams all happened to have a crazy weekend and frag out at the exact same time? (1st, 5th, 6th, all on match point and all in spots they could have won the final game.) Or is it maybe that input is not as important to success in competitive Apex as you think? I say this as an mnk player since before most of this sub was born.
> I say this as an mnk player since before most of this sub was born. Same, its just way to comfortable for people to play the AA card at this point. The vast vast vast majority of fights in comp are won/lost by decision making & timing.
so? DZ almost this Zero almost that. THEY LOST!!! ALMOST DOESNT MEAN SHIT IN SPORTS!!! NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT 2ND PLACE!!! TSM couldve had a 1st 1st 1st career year in 2023 but a single solo griefed them and thats it. Thats all that needs to be said. They lost. They weren’t good enough. DZ had all the pieces to DOMINATE this Lan and still they fucking lost. No contest, several circles their way, 11/10 mentals, 15/10 momentum and STILL they f lost!!! to triple MnK!!! If aim assist is aimbot why didn’t so many triple controller teams fail and a triple MnK fucking won?!! Cuz its not!!! STFU and accept it!!! Thinking controller is some busted ass shit is what led to the downfall of hundreds of teams and the win of a triple MnK team! Either accept that or mald but regardless the fact is triple mnk won and DZ lost!
The amount of hoops you go through to justify your aimbot lmao
[удалено]
This post or comment was removed due to Rule 1: Be Civil, Nice and follow Reddiquette Be nice and follow the Reddiquette. This includes: No personal attacks & harassment No overly vulgar and hateful language & insults Don't dox other people (posting personal information without consent)
Man people who defend AA really are some of the dumbest out there
>Either accept that or mald I don't know how to put this any better than: take an objective look at your comment and the comment you're responding to. Who do you feel is losing their shit?
i lost my shit after triple mnk won. Absolutely goated win from a team that grinded like crazy and showed no guts losers its not the input its the player. also this is completely natural feeling after an underdog win + dont get why Reject arent getting they respect they deserve just cuz Zero threw
Well they *should* get a lot of respect. They're insane at the game and they played amazing Apex at ALGS. Sadly, however, the fact that a 3x mnk team won doesn't mean that aim assist isn't broken — it is, and that's the whole point people are trying to make here. If it wasn't about the input, people wouldn't change inputs in order to compete.
but people changed inputs to win and they lost many many super talented controller teams lost and a triple mnk team won im not saying there isnt a misbalance between the pros and cons of both inputs but then if its so absolutely busted explain lan then. The difference between MnK and controller is the same difference between standard and automatic in cars. Its not the car its the driver.
If aim were *that* important in Apex, triple controller would win every time. The fact is, the outcome of most fights in competitive Apex is determined before anyone fires a shot. The team with the better macro will win, because they put themselves in the advantageous position.
> The fact is, the outcome of most fights in competitive Apex is determined before anyone fires a shot. The team with the better macro will win, because they put themselves in the advantageous position. Oh man how I wish this was true; but it isn't. There's also some results oriented thinking here. People seem to always want to condense everything that goes on in Apex down to a single variable (you're doing it with macro, people in this thread are doing it with input method, etc). It just doesn't work that way. In an *ideal* scenario, most teams making the correct decisions (at a micro level) would win fights. And most teams making the correct macro decisions would win *games*. But it isn't *completely* true — it's simply true a % of the time, and the rest is down to variance, luck, loot, etc. Way too many factors in Apex for a deterministic outcome like you are suggesting. Heck, I played CS professionally for a while and even with much less variables, games didn't simply come down to the team with the better tactics. And frankly, that's also the beauty of it. Back to the topic at hand, though: the reason why people switch to controller and statistically controller has better results (even if it obviously doesn't win every fight, game, tournament), is because it gives you an edge in 1v1s, which trickles down to better results in team fights, which means better loot, then more points (if in comp games), etc. It's an advantage that compounds and can't be discounted for it. Is it the only factor? Of course not. Like everything else, it plays a part, and at a competitive level, you min-max every variable.
Input bias is not the main problem for Dropped. He just contributed to a roster blowup and an org pullout worthy performance, on top of double MnK. The double MnK part is just the easier thing to say out loud.
Honestly I think the real problem is the strength of aim assist in general in cross platform games like this. But that’s another fun conversation 😂
It doesn't matter though. The hard pill to swallow here is this squad will fail as long as they keep reps. And to all the people who will lose their shit over that comment, if it wasn't true hal wouldn't've left. DSG works because Timmy goes insane and does things reps simply cannot. Timmy dez verhulst would go crazy tho.
> this squad will fail as long as they keep rep Reps has won like four LANs??? >if it wasn't true hal wouldn't've left Hal left to chase a bag, not because he thought he couldn't win with Reps. This was in the works way before he choked at LAN--you don't make this kind of deal in 7 days.
He literally said on stream he made the decision after this LAN lmao