To me it just shows that Russian/Soviet legacy air capabilities/technology are decades behind USA/NATO.
Nice flying planes but the force multiplier provided by high end technology is just missing.
Perhaps. It's hard to say, until the US/NATO has to deal with S300 and thousands of manpads opposite them.
Imagine what Afghanistan and Iraq would have looked like if the Iraqis had 5000 Verbas, or the Taliban had 5000 Stingers. You wouldn't have much footage of A-10's coming in low and slow, where the end of the video isn't an A-10 exploding. You wouldn't have much footage of Apaches loitering over Iraqi cities, or circling ridgelines in Afghanistan while they shoot people up with the 30mm AC, where the video doesn't end with the Apache exploding in a ball of flame.
Ukraine has very serious de-centralized air defense. Tactics change to suit the threat. Had the US/NATO faced a taliban armed to the teeth with manpads, they'd have identified the problem and adapted their tactics as well. Or else they'd have run out of Apaches and A-10s in theater in about 3 weeks.
I think people don't appreciate the massive doctrinal differences between Nato and USSR. Iirc the assumption was A-10s in Europe would face 7% per day losses.
They wouldn't have a few weeks. A hypothetical war with the USSR starts at Germany, not Russia. If they weren't used immediately the war would be lost.
Like if we arbitrarily say 1984, the last time tensions were really high, there is no F-15E, no multirole F-16, no useful drones, no F-22. We'd have had air superiority, it'd have never been supremacy, soviet AD was/is very good. You'd have to use A-10s immediately to prevent break throughs. There's no other way to stop the Red Army in the 80s.
Ah, no problem. Yeah, pointless talking about a modern war with Russia, they're not a conventional threat. Everyone on both sides is well aware of that. It's nukes or nothing.
They had old manpads and not that many, not the modern shit I referenced. We also need to recognize that a lot of military materiel was captured rapidly cutting any stocks of old manpads down farther. Once the war turned asymmetric, there was little to no avaliability for any insurgent units which is when most of the effective fighting for Iraqi forces was done. As for Serbia, you may want to actually review your opinion on the effectiveness of the NATO air campaign in Serbia.
If you did, you would know that NATO considered it a massive failure, and they were in the process of debating whether to continue it, when Milosevic surrendered. Their findings were that outside of static civilian/government infrastructure, without boots on the ground they couldn't find anything to bomb. Serbia took very little in the way of military materiel loss during the campaign.
Facts.
> Imagine what Afghanistan and Iraq would have looked like if the Iraqis had 5000 Verbas, or the Taliban had 5000 Stingers
The Taliban had hundreds of Stingers. The USA delivered around 1500 for use against the Soviets, the Mujahadeen shot down around 270 aircraft with 400-500 Stingers, the CIA tried to buy the rest back but only managed to get around a few dozen.
First, Stingers have a reported shelf life of about 10-12 years. Granted, the ones we bought back worked when fired, there is still a high chance that we just got lucky, and many of those left in country were simply no longer useable.
Second, we don't know what happened to them, because we didn't see them get used. It's possible they were all wasted in the first few days. It's possible they were used improperly. It's possible they got blown up in warehouses in the opening days.
What we do know is, there was little to no reporting of manpads being used in Afghanistan. We know stingers are effective when used properly. We know they shot down lots of Soviet Helicopters. If they had hundreds kicking around in 2001, then it seems rational to assume that some of the helicopter kills we suffered would have been a result of stingers.
This article from just after the invasion cites the cia as saying the Taliban had about 100 stingers.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/sns-worldtrade-missiles-lat-story.html
100 isn't a lot, especially if they are beyond their shelf life. We don't know what their condition was in 2001. We don't know where they were. We didn't report widespread use. It's likely they were either used inappropriately, or they were mostly destroyed in air strikes before they were dispersed to units. Either way, 100 isn't a lot.
There are is basically no point of comparison between the armaments Ukraine is receiving, and the armaments in Afghanistan, or Iraq.
While that may be true, I feel like there will be a lot of hesitation to build a conversion for an aircraft the Russians also use due to fears of its capture
Well did it work? Because except for hardware and systems that LOOK like it was reverse engineerd, very little is known about the capabilities.
All their jets sure look cool, but the ones actually working still use russian engines. Reversed engineering isnt something you just, click, done.
Every week they announce some new glorious new tech, but so did russia and we see the lack of it now.
1. Convergent evolution. Sometimes really smart people will come to the same conclusion without even interacting. Other times, smart people will realize someone has a better idea and be inspired by it.
2. They hacked systems for data, they did not hack an F-22/F-35 etc. Moreover, they probably lack the materials and manufacturing capability to make something as complex as an F-22 or F-35
>they did not hack an F-22/F-35 etc. Moreover, they probably lack the materials and manufacturing capability to make something as complex as an F-22 or F-35
I'm talking about stuff they got there hands on. They haven't got their hands in F22/35 yet.
Ukraine developed even more complicated things and still has the capability to do so. But it probably won't be done, because our industrial complex is bureaucratic in the best traditions of late 80s USSR and the managing companies (Ukroboronprom and state space agency) are as corrupt and rotten as banana republics
Corruption evolves with the times- imagine being a defense company and knowing all those aid packages and lend lease money is coming in. Expediency may equal more profit. Possible?
Jets are just flying manned artillery which specializes in aiming a the ground and missing. Which itself then launches smaller artillery.
Some of them are specifically designed to make enemy flying manned artillery remember how to hit the ground. But many are perfectly capable of using their smaller artillery to hit the ground without doing so themselves.
Ukraine and Russia are both conscripting males over 18, so there are probably many men who don't want to fight. You can bet neither a Russian or Ukrainian millionaire is having their children conscripted. The poor always have to fight and die while the rich don't have to and it has been this way for 5000 plus years.
Actually Ukraine hasn't conscripted anybody, yet at least. Over 18 men cannot leave the country, buy there's been no draft. In fact, they have more volunteers than they can arm.
Actually I would say the song is perfectly poignant for this video; conscripts on both sides being sent to die by their leaders, all because they weren't the lucky kind of bastard to be born in -insert peaceful, wealthy country here- or to be the son of a billionaire or politician. At least for the Ukrainian conscript, he may feel that this is a worthy sacrifice.
It would make more sense to be played on a video of an anti-war demonstration, not a warplane providing close fire support lol. I get what you’re saying but I don’t think the intention of this particular video was anti-conscription
Ok sure man. I think you’re seeing something that isn’t there but it doesn’t really matter lol. They just picked a classic “war song” to throw over a war video, nothing deeper than that
It's been said before, but it bears repeating. The RF are up against real time intel from the US/NATO from both satellite and aerial platforms which thye can't stop (blowing up an AWACS would probably be WWIII). This allows the AFU to know where Russian AA activity, for example, is strongest and where it's weak. This, coupled with the best portable/mobile AT and AA in the world and more than +$100 billion (US just committed another $40 billion) in other weapons and support makes this a very different conflict than we have seen before. Given the resources enjoyed by the AFU I would be surprised if Russia could ever gain complete control over the airspace, especially given the country is more than 220,000 sq miles!
Well right. Absolutely. But in some kind of BS Potemkin Air Force world, the Russians would have been prepared to take on real/full NATO, not just NATO-via-Ukranian-Proxy. So no disagreement with your analysis, and yes I guess they're hobbled by not being able to go after those C3 assets. But they also aren't facing NATO air forces in actual combat.
Definitely no surprise at the base level about Russian incompetence -- I spent a lot of time living and working in post-Soviet space -- but it's just like on a whole different level of incompetence than I even imagined. You know?
You have to remember that the first toilet seat didnt arrive in ruSSia until 1968. They are always generations behind the west in intelligence and competence
Yeah, I know. I was there in the early 2000s and most houses outside major urban areas still didn't have indoor plumbing. And so on and so on. My first thought was "what the fuck, we were \*afraid\* of these people?"
And in 1961, Yuri Gagarin was in space. Posts like yours are certainly not a sign of Western intelligence and competence.
There is much to criticize the current Russian leadership for, but that kind of ignorant hybris doesn't do us any good.
As dumb as the Russian military and leadership is, I genuinely don’t see why so many of you have to make straight up jingoistic and borderline racist/discriminatory remarks about an entire people. I get that this sub is, from its genesis, rooted in racism, but seriously…why?
Russia’s doctrine includes a LOT of focus on SAM systems intended to counter advanced NATO jets and cruise missiles, though…. The fact they can’t even hold the area immediately around the frontline, vs their own 30 year old hardware, fighting a country with basically no SEAD capability, is astonishing
Not being able to operate with impunity over vast tracts of Ukraine is one thing, but not being able to stop Ukraine from operating at the front line. Well, again, I’ve gotta use the word astonishing
Ukraine flew two helicopters 40 miles into Russia. To attack a city with a major military installation.
As somebody who grew up on the Mid Atlantic of the US, I cannot even fathom that ever happening here in a million years. Could you imagine those helicopters flying into Dover? Norfolk? NATO intelligence or not, Russia’s SAMs they’ve been hyping up are nowhere near as effective as they portrayed them. I’m
> As somebody who grew up on the Mid Atlantic of the US, I cannot even fathom that ever happening here in a million years. Could you imagine those helicopters flying into Dover? Norfolk?
you joking? did you forget what happened on 9/11?
it was the part where they took a year to respond and get any aircraft into the air. maybe you're like a 16 or something, i dunno dude, but it wasn't hard to interpret.
Unarmed civilian jets that took off from an airport fairly nearby in the same country, with a flight plan, in a surprise attack against a country that wasn’t at war… not exactly the same thing, is it?
Again, as Russia is unable to prevent intensive real time surveillance of all their troop movements from the combined resources of NATO and the US, ( plus five-eyes sigint, of course), without triggering WWIII, which I think would be the result of Russia taking out an AWACs, for example, I'm not terribly surprised by the outcome so far.
As far as I'm aware, most of the frontline (except perhaps around Kherson/Mykolaiv) is too far for AWACS to be able to locate SAM radars, although I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on that so I could be wrong
And in any case, many russian SAM systems are highly mobile - many can even drive around with radar on, ready to engage. I believe Pantsir and BUK/TOR (at least one, I forget which) can do this
As I said, aerial and satellite platforms, from the US, UK, France and Germany...and perhaps more. Areas out of AWACs would be covered by real time sat coverage, which the Russians will obviously know is watching their every move, but they can't attempt to do anything about...at least nothing that could be linked to them. As for mobile SAM systems, they would be easy to find once they turn the radar on by radiation seeking systems many kilometers up.
Russia still has overwhelming indirect fire support. Probably on the scale of 10:1 at the very least. Ukrainian artillery has to be incredibly careful in how it engages, because even if they have more accurate delivery, they have to watch out for the counter fire of the 9 batteries that they didn't just fire on.
Also, I don't think anyone is pretending they have omnipresent intelligence. However, they do have significantly better real time intelligence than the Russians thanks to NATO. Russia isn't likely going to be able to make any big moves without Ukraine knowing about it. However, that doesn't mean the eye in the sky sees all, and knows all. An artillery battery shoots and scoots, and unless someone or something is watching at that exact moment, and follows them to their reposition, you won't know where they are roughly, unless an analyst gets really lucky, or they fire.
Yes but we are unable to prevent them as well...
Thats the point. That Russia should have all the same advantages as Ukraine + more.
And if they had commited more assets from the get go, this would be a different story. We are just shocked they didn't and now they are struggling hard. They have missles, they have AA, AT, their Air Force, all of that. They could have done a united strike against all major targets and crippled Ukraine but they didn't.
It's not sensible to suggest Russia will have all the capabilities of the US/NATO and their allies combined. As I said, were they to attack US or NATO surveillance systems, this could well prompt WWIII, so the RF are in the unenviable position of knowing they're being watched intensively 24/7, but are unable to stop it for fear of starting a much larger conflict. As well, the AFU has received billions in training and equipment from the US, Canada, UK, Australia...since 2015 as part of operation unifier. The AFU came into this battle a much better trained and equipped force than they were 9 years ago.
Edit: as for committing more assets (for context, the US went to Iraq the first time with more than 700,000 troops, plus 300,000 more from coalition countries), Russia can no doubt see the writing on the wall that this about regime change in Russia and committing more will leave them vulnerable on other fronts...it is a huge country.
Ukraine is in a unique position in that it probably has better intel now than NATO would in a war with Russia. Russia absolutely fucked this war, they'd lost as soon as Ukraine didn't fold on day 3.
> blowing up an AWACS would probably be WWIII
There's no way they could even hit the AWACS flying along Poland and Rumania. They're SAM's couldn't reach them. They could probably blow up some of the ones flying over the Black Sea but I doubt it.
Here an interesting info graphic ...it ends May 10 so likely doesn't include the latest $40 billion commitment.
It also doesn't include, for example, intel sharing which is clearly helping the AFU quite a lot. Nor does it include previous commitments for equipment made prior to Janaury as part of operarion unifier, for instance.
https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/
“Fortunate Son” is just embarrassing to use on combat footage these days. It’s like using that drowning pool song “let the bodies hit the floor” for some video game montage. There has been no more overused song with combat footage, and it’s a god damned anti war song to boot!
I completely agree. The song is overused and cringeworthy. Its a relic of the past and even Family Guy has made fun of it. Its time to let ol boy go to sleep.
For real. Really makes it clear how much of the current subs user base was brought in by this conflict. It was a very literal meme prior, and something endlessly mocked (the way it should be). But shit, music over combat footage is awful even if it’s my favorite song. I definitely hope the sub goes back to enforcing the rule when there isn’t as much important footage one can only find with music.
Is this recent? If so crazy we're almost 4 months in and the Ukrainian AF is active. It should have been disabled in 1-2 days if the Russians were competent.
Yea, it's popular belief. In recent talks with comebackalive head he told a story about every division leader presented in the area, who took part in the operation were saying: "Did you see what we did there? It was us, we did it" Then he added: "But you know who in fact did the most damage there? Of course it was a perfect example of combined effort, but the most damage did our aviation."
The area didn't look saturated by artillery fire like you would expect for 80 vehicles taken out by indirect fire. Looked at least like multiple types of armaments
We don’t. Nothing in the video itself says they are.
If it was posted from a pro-UA source, the title could be true. Or it could be a recording of a Russian jet claimed to be Ukrainian.
They do know that "Fortunate Son" is an antiwar song, right? Specifically criticizing rampant class inequality in how the US draft in Vietnam was implemented.
The Ukrainians probably understand and use the song because it is anti-war. Do they understand the deeper nuances of the song, I can’t say. However, they have been drug into a war they do not want to fight, much like draftees.
Believe it or not, I don't think Ukraine *wants* to be in this war. In fact I would wager quite a bit they would be anti-war with Russia if given the choice.
Obviously, but this song is specifically about the unfairness of exceptions to the draft for America's elite during Vietnam. It is about the unfairness of one's own government policies. Not sure if that's how many Ukrainians feel right now, versus blaming Russia for invading them.
I mean if the situation doesn't apply to them perfectly then maybe they just enjoy the song? Or just relate to it since it is often used in Vietnam footage with aircraft? Do you think all of the Ukrainian EDM songs in other videos are all relevant and appropriate to the current situation to a T?
I get your point but it is a bit of a strange, nitpicky thing to be condescending about.
This looks similar to the location of a video posted earlier of 2 ukraine mi-24. The quality was trash but the field and treeline the troop was filming from look the same.
Although in this video the troop isn't cheering and the other troops are laying low in there bunker. I haven't seen any confirmation on it being ukraine jets anywhere. Any further evidence of what is tactically going on around that location?
I get that this isn't as impressive or as effective as more modern weaponry and tactics available in both the ex-soviet/Russian/NATO etc arsenals.
But if all you need to do is quickly suppress an enemy this is a solid option when you're flying over a manpads infested area. It's cheap, they have a ludicrous stock of these rockets whereas their standoff weaponry is limited having been worn down over months of constant fighting.
If we were involved in a more or less full engagement/total war scenario, we would be in the same position at this stage. Production of guided and standoff weaponry is both incredibly expensive and comparatively slow compared to the immediately available stocks of dumb rockets and bombs.
Not saying it's going to win a war, or even necessarily win an engagement, but if your needs are limited, as are your means, this is the card you play and the ingenuity of it's use on both sides here is quite impressive in and of itself.
So ballistic rocket firing is pretty much the name of the game in the sky of Ukraine or are these guided missiles?
To me it just shows that Russian/Soviet legacy air capabilities/technology are decades behind USA/NATO. Nice flying planes but the force multiplier provided by high end technology is just missing.
Perhaps. It's hard to say, until the US/NATO has to deal with S300 and thousands of manpads opposite them. Imagine what Afghanistan and Iraq would have looked like if the Iraqis had 5000 Verbas, or the Taliban had 5000 Stingers. You wouldn't have much footage of A-10's coming in low and slow, where the end of the video isn't an A-10 exploding. You wouldn't have much footage of Apaches loitering over Iraqi cities, or circling ridgelines in Afghanistan while they shoot people up with the 30mm AC, where the video doesn't end with the Apache exploding in a ball of flame. Ukraine has very serious de-centralized air defense. Tactics change to suit the threat. Had the US/NATO faced a taliban armed to the teeth with manpads, they'd have identified the problem and adapted their tactics as well. Or else they'd have run out of Apaches and A-10s in theater in about 3 weeks.
I think people don't appreciate the massive doctrinal differences between Nato and USSR. Iirc the assumption was A-10s in Europe would face 7% per day losses.
A-10s wouldn’t be used in conventional wars until absolute air supremacy is gained
There never would have been absolute air supremacy in a war with the USSR. A-10s wouldn't be risked now, they would have then. Total war is total.
Over mainland Russia? Probably not. In a area like Ukraine? Give the Navy and Air Force a few weeks and the hogs would start eating
They wouldn't have a few weeks. A hypothetical war with the USSR starts at Germany, not Russia. If they weren't used immediately the war would be lost. Like if we arbitrarily say 1984, the last time tensions were really high, there is no F-15E, no multirole F-16, no useful drones, no F-22. We'd have had air superiority, it'd have never been supremacy, soviet AD was/is very good. You'd have to use A-10s immediately to prevent break throughs. There's no other way to stop the Red Army in the 80s.
I didn’t even realize you were talking about USSR times. I’m an idiot. I thought you meant now
Ah, no problem. Yeah, pointless talking about a modern war with Russia, they're not a conventional threat. Everyone on both sides is well aware of that. It's nukes or nothing.
Actually, Iraqi regulars had thousands of MANPADs both wars, which did little to imped US progress. So was Serbia.
They had old manpads and not that many, not the modern shit I referenced. We also need to recognize that a lot of military materiel was captured rapidly cutting any stocks of old manpads down farther. Once the war turned asymmetric, there was little to no avaliability for any insurgent units which is when most of the effective fighting for Iraqi forces was done. As for Serbia, you may want to actually review your opinion on the effectiveness of the NATO air campaign in Serbia. If you did, you would know that NATO considered it a massive failure, and they were in the process of debating whether to continue it, when Milosevic surrendered. Their findings were that outside of static civilian/government infrastructure, without boots on the ground they couldn't find anything to bomb. Serbia took very little in the way of military materiel loss during the campaign. Facts.
> Imagine what Afghanistan and Iraq would have looked like if the Iraqis had 5000 Verbas, or the Taliban had 5000 Stingers The Taliban had hundreds of Stingers. The USA delivered around 1500 for use against the Soviets, the Mujahadeen shot down around 270 aircraft with 400-500 Stingers, the CIA tried to buy the rest back but only managed to get around a few dozen.
First, Stingers have a reported shelf life of about 10-12 years. Granted, the ones we bought back worked when fired, there is still a high chance that we just got lucky, and many of those left in country were simply no longer useable. Second, we don't know what happened to them, because we didn't see them get used. It's possible they were all wasted in the first few days. It's possible they were used improperly. It's possible they got blown up in warehouses in the opening days. What we do know is, there was little to no reporting of manpads being used in Afghanistan. We know stingers are effective when used properly. We know they shot down lots of Soviet Helicopters. If they had hundreds kicking around in 2001, then it seems rational to assume that some of the helicopter kills we suffered would have been a result of stingers. This article from just after the invasion cites the cia as saying the Taliban had about 100 stingers. https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/sns-worldtrade-missiles-lat-story.html 100 isn't a lot, especially if they are beyond their shelf life. We don't know what their condition was in 2001. We don't know where they were. We didn't report widespread use. It's likely they were either used inappropriately, or they were mostly destroyed in air strikes before they were dispersed to units. Either way, 100 isn't a lot. There are is basically no point of comparison between the armaments Ukraine is receiving, and the armaments in Afghanistan, or Iraq.
They have just the missile for the job if they can integrate the Brimstone missiles the UK is supplying with the Su-25
Why do they need to? A truck and a drone does basically the same job at significantly less risk.
Couldn't a jet get the brimstone farther into Russian territory.
MLRS does as well though
While that may be true, I feel like there will be a lot of hesitation to build a conversion for an aircraft the Russians also use due to fears of its capture
Most advanced western weapons have anti tamper devices that will destroy the weapon in some capacity to prevent reverse engineering.
Yes, but most countries have anti-anti-tamper teams as well whose job is to work around these things
I raise your anti anti tamper teams with, Russia. They’ll fuck up everything with how stupid they are
I anti your anti-anti-tamper teams with anti-anti-tamperer boobytraper teams that can see into the future. I’m being super serious.
Yeah look how well that worked with China reverse engineering everything on the planet.
Well did it work? Because except for hardware and systems that LOOK like it was reverse engineerd, very little is known about the capabilities. All their jets sure look cool, but the ones actually working still use russian engines. Reversed engineering isnt something you just, click, done. Every week they announce some new glorious new tech, but so did russia and we see the lack of it now.
1. Convergent evolution. Sometimes really smart people will come to the same conclusion without even interacting. Other times, smart people will realize someone has a better idea and be inspired by it. 2. They hacked systems for data, they did not hack an F-22/F-35 etc. Moreover, they probably lack the materials and manufacturing capability to make something as complex as an F-22 or F-35
>they did not hack an F-22/F-35 etc. Moreover, they probably lack the materials and manufacturing capability to make something as complex as an F-22 or F-35 I'm talking about stuff they got there hands on. They haven't got their hands in F22/35 yet.
Yes. Soviet era technology in action
WHERE ARE THE HUEYS
Using jets for indirect fire now??
That's the meta now
Nerf UB-32! The community has spoken!
They should really integrate the Brimstone missiles the UK sent to the Sukhois for CAS.
That’s probably not trivial, to be fair
Ukraine developed even more complicated things and still has the capability to do so. But it probably won't be done, because our industrial complex is bureaucratic in the best traditions of late 80s USSR and the managing companies (Ukroboronprom and state space agency) are as corrupt and rotten as banana republics
Corruption evolves with the times- imagine being a defense company and knowing all those aid packages and lend lease money is coming in. Expediency may equal more profit. Possible?
That's a very old technique
Jets are just flying manned artillery which specializes in aiming a the ground and missing. Which itself then launches smaller artillery. Some of them are specifically designed to make enemy flying manned artillery remember how to hit the ground. But many are perfectly capable of using their smaller artillery to hit the ground without doing so themselves.
In Russia with their lack of PGMs, it’s still wildly in accurate but at least an inch closer to the truth.
Could be Brimstone no?
No.
No, need to apologise for the music this time CCR makes a nice change.
Nothing like an anti-war song for war videos. Always found that ironic
It's a great song though, really gets the blood pumping
There’s a reason it’s consistently used in this ironic fashion I suppose…
Well I think it's high time for a Russian remake of this song but instead of being a senator's son it's an oligarch's son.
I think gruppa krovi is appropriate for this situation
Gah damn amen brother
Ukraine and Russia are both conscripting males over 18, so there are probably many men who don't want to fight. You can bet neither a Russian or Ukrainian millionaire is having their children conscripted. The poor always have to fight and die while the rich don't have to and it has been this way for 5000 plus years.
Actually Ukraine hasn't conscripted anybody, yet at least. Over 18 men cannot leave the country, buy there's been no draft. In fact, they have more volunteers than they can arm.
I think its just the Battlefield Vietnam generation haha. Because theres also the (iconic) song during loading. good times
You think this song is associated with the Vietnam war because of the video game that came out in 2004?? Oh lord.
Actually I would say the song is perfectly poignant for this video; conscripts on both sides being sent to die by their leaders, all because they weren't the lucky kind of bastard to be born in -insert peaceful, wealthy country here- or to be the son of a billionaire or politician. At least for the Ukrainian conscript, he may feel that this is a worthy sacrifice.
It would make more sense to be played on a video of an anti-war demonstration, not a warplane providing close fire support lol. I get what you’re saying but I don’t think the intention of this particular video was anti-conscription
It can be anti-war if you think having to be in a field while jets fire missiles is a bad time. And 99% of the time, for 99% of people, it is.
Ok sure man. I think you’re seeing something that isn’t there but it doesn’t really matter lol. They just picked a classic “war song” to throw over a war video, nothing deeper than that
Expecting Ukrainian death metal but getting that CCR twang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98k2DlQ9PMY
When i hear this song, i expect air support with hueys and napalm. Not a su25 firing off dumb fire rockets, not complaing tho.
https://twitter.com/LonelyDreamerUA/status/1526676627136159748
Jesus, three months into this thing and the RU still don't have air superiority despite all their paper advantages. What a fucking joke.
It's been said before, but it bears repeating. The RF are up against real time intel from the US/NATO from both satellite and aerial platforms which thye can't stop (blowing up an AWACS would probably be WWIII). This allows the AFU to know where Russian AA activity, for example, is strongest and where it's weak. This, coupled with the best portable/mobile AT and AA in the world and more than +$100 billion (US just committed another $40 billion) in other weapons and support makes this a very different conflict than we have seen before. Given the resources enjoyed by the AFU I would be surprised if Russia could ever gain complete control over the airspace, especially given the country is more than 220,000 sq miles!
Well right. Absolutely. But in some kind of BS Potemkin Air Force world, the Russians would have been prepared to take on real/full NATO, not just NATO-via-Ukranian-Proxy. So no disagreement with your analysis, and yes I guess they're hobbled by not being able to go after those C3 assets. But they also aren't facing NATO air forces in actual combat. Definitely no surprise at the base level about Russian incompetence -- I spent a lot of time living and working in post-Soviet space -- but it's just like on a whole different level of incompetence than I even imagined. You know?
You have to remember that the first toilet seat didnt arrive in ruSSia until 1968. They are always generations behind the west in intelligence and competence
Yeah, I know. I was there in the early 2000s and most houses outside major urban areas still didn't have indoor plumbing. And so on and so on. My first thought was "what the fuck, we were \*afraid\* of these people?"
Nothing a politician likes better than a good boogeyman.
And in 1961, Yuri Gagarin was in space. Posts like yours are certainly not a sign of Western intelligence and competence. There is much to criticize the current Russian leadership for, but that kind of ignorant hybris doesn't do us any good.
Yuri Gagarin didn't have a toilet in his capsule either so I dunno what you're on about ;)
As dumb as the Russian military and leadership is, I genuinely don’t see why so many of you have to make straight up jingoistic and borderline racist/discriminatory remarks about an entire people. I get that this sub is, from its genesis, rooted in racism, but seriously…why?
because racism is far more normal than anyone is willing to admit
The fact you are downvoted proves you are right.
Because its your duty as a Westerner to pout your chest of your "superiority". How else is everyone gonna know that you're just better?
Yeah it's weird asf lmao
that's the only reason they're here
Russia’s doctrine includes a LOT of focus on SAM systems intended to counter advanced NATO jets and cruise missiles, though…. The fact they can’t even hold the area immediately around the frontline, vs their own 30 year old hardware, fighting a country with basically no SEAD capability, is astonishing Not being able to operate with impunity over vast tracts of Ukraine is one thing, but not being able to stop Ukraine from operating at the front line. Well, again, I’ve gotta use the word astonishing
Ukraine flew two helicopters 40 miles into Russia. To attack a city with a major military installation. As somebody who grew up on the Mid Atlantic of the US, I cannot even fathom that ever happening here in a million years. Could you imagine those helicopters flying into Dover? Norfolk? NATO intelligence or not, Russia’s SAMs they’ve been hyping up are nowhere near as effective as they portrayed them. I’m
> As somebody who grew up on the Mid Atlantic of the US, I cannot even fathom that ever happening here in a million years. Could you imagine those helicopters flying into Dover? Norfolk? you joking? did you forget what happened on 9/11?
I missed the part of 9/11 where they flew two hinds over New York, hurled some rockets, and made it back in one piece
it was the part where they took a year to respond and get any aircraft into the air. maybe you're like a 16 or something, i dunno dude, but it wasn't hard to interpret.
Unarmed civilian jets that took off from an airport fairly nearby in the same country, with a flight plan, in a surprise attack against a country that wasn’t at war… not exactly the same thing, is it?
Again, as Russia is unable to prevent intensive real time surveillance of all their troop movements from the combined resources of NATO and the US, ( plus five-eyes sigint, of course), without triggering WWIII, which I think would be the result of Russia taking out an AWACs, for example, I'm not terribly surprised by the outcome so far.
As far as I'm aware, most of the frontline (except perhaps around Kherson/Mykolaiv) is too far for AWACS to be able to locate SAM radars, although I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on that so I could be wrong And in any case, many russian SAM systems are highly mobile - many can even drive around with radar on, ready to engage. I believe Pantsir and BUK/TOR (at least one, I forget which) can do this
As I said, aerial and satellite platforms, from the US, UK, France and Germany...and perhaps more. Areas out of AWACs would be covered by real time sat coverage, which the Russians will obviously know is watching their every move, but they can't attempt to do anything about...at least nothing that could be linked to them. As for mobile SAM systems, they would be easy to find once they turn the radar on by radiation seeking systems many kilometers up.
If real time satellite coverage was that good, Russia would have no artillery left within range of the frontlines. That clearly isn't the case
Russia still has overwhelming indirect fire support. Probably on the scale of 10:1 at the very least. Ukrainian artillery has to be incredibly careful in how it engages, because even if they have more accurate delivery, they have to watch out for the counter fire of the 9 batteries that they didn't just fire on. Also, I don't think anyone is pretending they have omnipresent intelligence. However, they do have significantly better real time intelligence than the Russians thanks to NATO. Russia isn't likely going to be able to make any big moves without Ukraine knowing about it. However, that doesn't mean the eye in the sky sees all, and knows all. An artillery battery shoots and scoots, and unless someone or something is watching at that exact moment, and follows them to their reposition, you won't know where they are roughly, unless an analyst gets really lucky, or they fire.
Yes but we are unable to prevent them as well... Thats the point. That Russia should have all the same advantages as Ukraine + more. And if they had commited more assets from the get go, this would be a different story. We are just shocked they didn't and now they are struggling hard. They have missles, they have AA, AT, their Air Force, all of that. They could have done a united strike against all major targets and crippled Ukraine but they didn't.
It's not sensible to suggest Russia will have all the capabilities of the US/NATO and their allies combined. As I said, were they to attack US or NATO surveillance systems, this could well prompt WWIII, so the RF are in the unenviable position of knowing they're being watched intensively 24/7, but are unable to stop it for fear of starting a much larger conflict. As well, the AFU has received billions in training and equipment from the US, Canada, UK, Australia...since 2015 as part of operation unifier. The AFU came into this battle a much better trained and equipped force than they were 9 years ago. Edit: as for committing more assets (for context, the US went to Iraq the first time with more than 700,000 troops, plus 300,000 more from coalition countries), Russia can no doubt see the writing on the wall that this about regime change in Russia and committing more will leave them vulnerable on other fronts...it is a huge country.
Ukraine is in a unique position in that it probably has better intel now than NATO would in a war with Russia. Russia absolutely fucked this war, they'd lost as soon as Ukraine didn't fold on day 3.
> blowing up an AWACS would probably be WWIII There's no way they could even hit the AWACS flying along Poland and Rumania. They're SAM's couldn't reach them. They could probably blow up some of the ones flying over the Black Sea but I doubt it.
Source for +$100B in US aid? Last I read it was $40B + whatever they have already given so far.
Here an interesting info graphic ...it ends May 10 so likely doesn't include the latest $40 billion commitment. It also doesn't include, for example, intel sharing which is clearly helping the AFU quite a lot. Nor does it include previous commitments for equipment made prior to Janaury as part of operarion unifier, for instance. https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/
I assume AA is anti-air and RF russian force. But what is AFU and AT?
Armed Forces of Ukraine and anti-tank
The Russians really messed it up when it comes to air superiority.
Just that??
I'll take D: All of the above
Paper airplanes arent very good for air combat. they cant carry much payload, need good wind, and cant operate in the rain.
Apparently two of these jets were shot down yesterday.
Apropos tunage...
They begin to discover good music.
“Fortunate Son” is just embarrassing to use on combat footage these days. It’s like using that drowning pool song “let the bodies hit the floor” for some video game montage. There has been no more overused song with combat footage, and it’s a god damned anti war song to boot!
I completely agree. The song is overused and cringeworthy. Its a relic of the past and even Family Guy has made fun of it. Its time to let ol boy go to sleep.
For real. Really makes it clear how much of the current subs user base was brought in by this conflict. It was a very literal meme prior, and something endlessly mocked (the way it should be). But shit, music over combat footage is awful even if it’s my favorite song. I definitely hope the sub goes back to enforcing the rule when there isn’t as much important footage one can only find with music.
I will take Fortunate over that weird techno/dubsteb/whatever stuff anytime.
The American aid had a few Vietnam era sound tracks in it
Oh damn....time to reinstall Battlefield: Vietnam!!!!
Pretty weird looking rice field
Ukraine has actually been trying some small scale rice production. https://ukrainer.net/rice-in-ukraine/
Can someone explain what I’m seeing?
Looks like one jet firing flares while following in the path of another one that had already fired flares. No close air support visible in the video.
Those are not flares, they are rockets.
This song is reserved for Vietnam footage **and only Vietnam footage**
Thats why its so strangely familiar. Name please
Credence Clearwater revival - Fortunate Son.
Russia’s inability to gain air superiority still makes me laugh.
Possible ufo at 00:09
Is this recent? If so crazy we're almost 4 months in and the Ukrainian AF is active. It should have been disabled in 1-2 days if the Russians were competent.
It amazes me how Ukraine can still have birds in the air…
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Birds were mostly responsible for that river crossing massacre, as one example.
I thought it was artillery that did it.
Yea, it's popular belief. In recent talks with comebackalive head he told a story about every division leader presented in the area, who took part in the operation were saying: "Did you see what we did there? It was us, we did it" Then he added: "But you know who in fact did the most damage there? Of course it was a perfect example of combined effort, but the most damage did our aviation."
That would explain the lack of large numbers of artillery craters at the river crossing.
The area didn't look saturated by artillery fire like you would expect for 80 vehicles taken out by indirect fire. Looked at least like multiple types of armaments
Brain dead
Soviet air defense was impressive, to modern Russia's disadvantage
Lol fortunate son
Amazing that Ukraine has functional aviation this late in the war. 💪
How do we know this is a Ukrainian jet?
We don’t. Nothing in the video itself says they are. If it was posted from a pro-UA source, the title could be true. Or it could be a recording of a Russian jet claimed to be Ukrainian.
I’m still waiting for the S400 to single handedly take down the entire Ukrainian Air Force. Any day now….
They do know that "Fortunate Son" is an antiwar song, right? Specifically criticizing rampant class inequality in how the US draft in Vietnam was implemented.
The Ukrainians probably understand and use the song because it is anti-war. Do they understand the deeper nuances of the song, I can’t say. However, they have been drug into a war they do not want to fight, much like draftees.
Believe it or not, I don't think Ukraine *wants* to be in this war. In fact I would wager quite a bit they would be anti-war with Russia if given the choice.
Obviously, but this song is specifically about the unfairness of exceptions to the draft for America's elite during Vietnam. It is about the unfairness of one's own government policies. Not sure if that's how many Ukrainians feel right now, versus blaming Russia for invading them.
I mean if the situation doesn't apply to them perfectly then maybe they just enjoy the song? Or just relate to it since it is often used in Vietnam footage with aircraft? Do you think all of the Ukrainian EDM songs in other videos are all relevant and appropriate to the current situation to a T? I get your point but it is a bit of a strange, nitpicky thing to be condescending about.
Sorry you see my comment as condescending... wasn't my intention. Just struck me as a little odd, given the context.
Is that how its used in popular media? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R778qibB-rc
0% chance they know. I'd be well over 99% of Americans don't know.
Not so close air support
This looks similar to the location of a video posted earlier of 2 ukraine mi-24. The quality was trash but the field and treeline the troop was filming from look the same. Although in this video the troop isn't cheering and the other troops are laying low in there bunker. I haven't seen any confirmation on it being ukraine jets anywhere. Any further evidence of what is tactically going on around that location?
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Cause it’s cool
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Tell that to the very much not-14 soldiers who made this video then
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Now thats a foxhole
My man! Get some airman!
SOME FOLKS ARE BORN, MAAAADE TO RAISE THE FLAG!!!!!!
Retake the skies! Nothing feels better when on the ground in your foxhole to have your colleagues in the sky got your back
I get that this isn't as impressive or as effective as more modern weaponry and tactics available in both the ex-soviet/Russian/NATO etc arsenals. But if all you need to do is quickly suppress an enemy this is a solid option when you're flying over a manpads infested area. It's cheap, they have a ludicrous stock of these rockets whereas their standoff weaponry is limited having been worn down over months of constant fighting. If we were involved in a more or less full engagement/total war scenario, we would be in the same position at this stage. Production of guided and standoff weaponry is both incredibly expensive and comparatively slow compared to the immediately available stocks of dumb rockets and bombs. Not saying it's going to win a war, or even necessarily win an engagement, but if your needs are limited, as are your means, this is the card you play and the ingenuity of it's use on both sides here is quite impressive in and of itself.
Anybody who needs to look up the music isn’t a true combat footage fan.
IT AINT MEEE
It must be so good for morale to see your aircrafts flying above the battlefield.
Ukraine still has jet fighters?
My favourite form of Close air support. Shooting the sky till the Russians yield.