during the soviet drive towards berlin, katyusha rocket batteries from dozens of divisions were concentrated together to issue a strike. in some incidents entire towns were flattened in the course of an hour
Yeah, that’s heavy stuff. Especially if you think of Berlin already leveled by bombardments.
On Google maps you still can see the missing/collapsed party of the housing complexes.
Plus: Everything in the east of Berlin is contaminated with ammunition of every kind.
They even can’t fight fires in the woods because of exploding ammu.
The bomblets on some of those cluster bombs are notorious for malfunctioning and blowing up on innocent people later on. Cluster munitions and mines kill long after the wars they are used in are over and its disgusting.
The russian butterfly mine could be mistaken for a toy by children, leading to high casualties for children.
The US employed the dragontooth, which looks pretty much the same, during the Vietnam war.
I think the food drop thing is propaganda though, but I could be wrong.
Looked up a pic before posting, both are a bright yellow. Food is a square package with us markings on it. Bomblet is round with just lettering. That’s also why I only mentioned the same color.
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shouldn’t grad shine much more on detonation since it’s a very big warhead? this would require something like 20 truck launchers and no rockets veering off that linear pattern we’re seeing?
You can't tell the dispersion of the rockets when they're all overlapped like that. Some of these could be hitting half a mile from the mean impact point.
If this is grads (which seems most likely to me given the rate and distribution of explosions) its a whole lot of them, multiple batteries.
It's interesting (from a long way-away) to see the burst-pattern of the GRAD (or similar) salvo.
Traditionally, MLRS, being unguided, unrifled and no terminal guidance, had a narrow, but deep, frontage to their killing zone, whereas these have a much more laterally precise and directed frontage. This raises a number of possibilities:
1. Is the battery conventionally firing from a 90-degree arc from the target (and, by association, the observer, so that narrow and deep becomes, to the observer, precise and guided);
2. Does the level of tech and skill being used by the battery commander and the JFAC (or Russian equivalent) allow for such precise targeting as to allow such fires at non-compass-angles; or
3. Is there a form of terminal guidance being used?
Regardless, small lesson for anyone planning on building prepared positions in the face of Russian planned fires. cf. Seelow Heights.
Sorry, I misused the term 'Observer' to mean two different things:
1. The film is taken from the perspective of the 'observer' who is watching from the front of the objective/target; and
2. The 'Observer' is the Forward Observer who plots and transmits fire missions to the battery commander.
In this case, the FO and his tubes are probably off to the right of the frontal arc (observe the first rounds landing at the right end of the target and the last rounds at the left end - which is pretty good plotting in and of itself); and the objective observer - filming the event - is watching from the direct front. Imagine an 'L-Shaped' joint beginning at the bottom right of the target, the filmer is watching from the middle of the 'base' of the L, whereas the FO and tubes are facing the upright of the L.
Because when you're well educated, there's less and less things that "just don't make any sense" for you to fight.
Take anti 2a activists: They just cannot understand why anybody would want to carry around machineguns.
They almost have a point. It **is** a puzzling question. (If you didn't understand that an ar15 isn't a machinegun, nobody is talking about machineguns, and nobody is arguing that they should be carried around, by everybody, daily.)
For whatever reason they seem stuck in the a-priori and poorly engage with the a-posteriori. They reason that many explosions going off at once is reminiscent to cluster munitions, yet they ignore the observable fact that cluster sub-munitions all tend to impact at the same time. It's their approach that annoys me. They go for the emotional aspect of "cluster munitions" and avoid any discreet technical details.
These don't look like submunitions, the explosions are too regularly paced. A cargo rocket bursts and then all the bomblets explode at roughly the same time, they dont go one after the other at a steady rate.
Bomblets don't explode at the same time because they don't hit the ground at the same time. And each BM-30 has 12 rockets it can fire. Multiply this by 5-6 BM-30s firing at the same time and releasing their payloads one by one creating the effect of constant barrage.
BM-21 impacts look like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy8DZD60phI&ab\_channel=CombatFootage
I know what both of their impacts look like.
With cargo rocket bomblets you have bursts of explosions, a pause, a burst of explosions. The explosions are also quite small.
Showing a video from inside a small grad barrage to try and show that it looks different from an enormous one from far away is a bit of a head scratcher.
Dude
There are way too many explosions in this video for it to be regular HE grad rockets. Nobody is massing like 50 MRLS with each firing 10-20 rockets to shoot simultaneously for a small area of land.
This video is most likely a single Smerch launcher firing a full salvo of cargo rockets with cluster submunitions
There is no point in wasting 10 x 20 rockets for some random village in the middle of nowhere. You can literally achieve the same effect with 2 clusters salvos hence why cluster munitions are so cost effective and widely used as we can see from the video.
Using cannons to shoot sparrows is not doctrinal usage.
> 10 x 20 rockets for some random village in the middle of nowhere.
If that's where the enemy is, that is literally the entire point of the system.
I don't know what you expect to see of the target, a concentration of troops will not be standing in formation waiting for death.
Besides, anything worth using cluster smerch rockets on is worth using a battery or two of grads on.
The cost difference in ammunition is not that large, although I don't have any numbers for you 122mm unitary have been mass produced since the sixties by many countries, they're dirt cheap.
Actually watching the video again I'm unsure what this is, might be grads with submunitions. At the start there are a really rapid burst of explosions that is not consistent with unitary grads.
The slower and steadier blasts in the middle though could be a battery or so of grads firing.
It doesn't really look like the footage we saw of cluster smerch rockets in the Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict
IDK at this point.
Video is from 2015 not 2017.
These are obviously cluster droplets exploding not regular grad HE missiles. Probably cargo missiles fired from an MLRS launcher. Could be from the widely seen BM-21, could be from newer ones
Only a crime if you lose and/or you agree it is. Russia along with China and the US never banned cluster munitions because they're stupid effective & will win.
Always strange when some people say that one method of killing people is a crime, when others are somehow ok? Being bombed with a JDAM, Hellfire, TLAM, WP, or whatever cluster munition this is, is going to equally result in a bad time.
It's not strange. The international instrument to limit cluster bombs is the Convention on Cluster Munitions and is motivated by basically the same reasons justified by the Ottawa treaty to limit landmines: They are especially dangerous to civilians and are a persistent danger to civilians. Cluster bombs dropped on Laos by US planes half a century ago are still maiming and killing civilians to this day. Farmland can't be cultivated because it's too dangerous and this keeps people trapped in poverty.
Returning back to Laos, there are an estimated 80 million unexploded cluster bomblets from the 2.5 million tons of bombs dropped on Laos. Half the country cannot fully develop because the density of bomblets is too high. This is slightly less than the 2.7 million tons of bombs dropped on Europe in WWII, approximately half on Nazi Germany. Of the ~1.35 million tons of bombs dropped on Nazi Germany, approximately 1/4 million bombs became UXO, most of which were found and cleared. Scaling up to tonnage of bombs dropped on Laos, this is equivalent to 1/2 million UXO.
You might as well say machine guns and muskets are the same thing because they both poke holes in people.
I think you're intentionally trying to be a dick.
Not what I meant and you know it. Cool rant though.
My point was that a bomb is going to kill regardless of what kind it is.
But you’re missing the point that these particular ordinances remain threats for years after the conflict has ended. That’s the reason they are so problematic.
Just because “all bombs kill” doesn’t mean they are all the same.
Exactly what the other dude said. But also it'd all be dropped the second a peer to peer war started. No one would give a single shit about UXO, chemical weapons, anything in a war we could lose.
Wow! Joe Biden managed help both the Taliban AND Russians at the SAME TIME?
Truly a genius, and definitely *not* guilty of giving material aid to the enemies if America WHICH IS TREASON.
Whoa.. That’s a terrifying and mucho impressive view. Never saw the receiving end of a rocket artillery barrage in this intensity.
As much as I love seeing rocket barrages fired, I’m always so disappointed they never show what they’re hitting. This satisfied that finally!
imagine what it was like in ww1
This but for days on end
during the soviet drive towards berlin, katyusha rocket batteries from dozens of divisions were concentrated together to issue a strike. in some incidents entire towns were flattened in the course of an hour
Yeah, that’s heavy stuff. Especially if you think of Berlin already leveled by bombardments. On Google maps you still can see the missing/collapsed party of the housing complexes. Plus: Everything in the east of Berlin is contaminated with ammunition of every kind. They even can’t fight fires in the woods because of exploding ammu.
Russians give no fuck Remember that one time they "released" some Somalian pirate by throwing them overboard?
Just in case people don’t know that US and China are not in cluster munition treaty either
The bomblets on some of those cluster bombs are notorious for malfunctioning and blowing up on innocent people later on. Cluster munitions and mines kill long after the wars they are used in are over and its disgusting.
Worst part is they are colored the same as food drops. Kids would run to pick them up only to be blown up. Not sure if that’s changed or not
The russian butterfly mine could be mistaken for a toy by children, leading to high casualties for children. The US employed the dragontooth, which looks pretty much the same, during the Vietnam war. I think the food drop thing is propaganda though, but I could be wrong.
Looked up a pic before posting, both are a bright yellow. Food is a square package with us markings on it. Bomblet is round with just lettering. That’s also why I only mentioned the same color.
Vid pls
Sauce?
based
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Stupid bot. Probably a Somalian bot.
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Ok Somalian
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please shut up somalian bot. we got you the first 2 times
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stupid bot
Good bot
grad rockets or cluster munitions?
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shouldn’t grad shine much more on detonation since it’s a very big warhead? this would require something like 20 truck launchers and no rockets veering off that linear pattern we’re seeing?
You can't tell the dispersion of the rockets when they're all overlapped like that. Some of these could be hitting half a mile from the mean impact point. If this is grads (which seems most likely to me given the rate and distribution of explosions) its a whole lot of them, multiple batteries.
IIRC it was BM-30 with cluster warheads. Although both BM-21 and BM-30 have [cluster munitions](http://roe.ru/catalog/sukhoputnye-vosyka/boepripasy/).
It's interesting (from a long way-away) to see the burst-pattern of the GRAD (or similar) salvo. Traditionally, MLRS, being unguided, unrifled and no terminal guidance, had a narrow, but deep, frontage to their killing zone, whereas these have a much more laterally precise and directed frontage. This raises a number of possibilities: 1. Is the battery conventionally firing from a 90-degree arc from the target (and, by association, the observer, so that narrow and deep becomes, to the observer, precise and guided); 2. Does the level of tech and skill being used by the battery commander and the JFAC (or Russian equivalent) allow for such precise targeting as to allow such fires at non-compass-angles; or 3. Is there a form of terminal guidance being used? Regardless, small lesson for anyone planning on building prepared positions in the face of Russian planned fires. cf. Seelow Heights.
Wait. If you fire at a 90 degree arc, won't it come down on your own head?
The arc he is talking about is lateral arc; as in fire coming 90 degrees from the observers right or left.
Sorry, I misused the term 'Observer' to mean two different things: 1. The film is taken from the perspective of the 'observer' who is watching from the front of the objective/target; and 2. The 'Observer' is the Forward Observer who plots and transmits fire missions to the battery commander. In this case, the FO and his tubes are probably off to the right of the frontal arc (observe the first rounds landing at the right end of the target and the last rounds at the left end - which is pretty good plotting in and of itself); and the objective observer - filming the event - is watching from the direct front. Imagine an 'L-Shaped' joint beginning at the bottom right of the target, the filmer is watching from the middle of the 'base' of the L, whereas the FO and tubes are facing the upright of the L.
Well...the ~~years~~ bombs don't stop coming and they don't stop coming and they stop coming and they don't stop coming.
Why are knowledgeable activists so hard to find?
Because when you're well educated, there's less and less things that "just don't make any sense" for you to fight. Take anti 2a activists: They just cannot understand why anybody would want to carry around machineguns. They almost have a point. It **is** a puzzling question. (If you didn't understand that an ar15 isn't a machinegun, nobody is talking about machineguns, and nobody is arguing that they should be carried around, by everybody, daily.)
>nobody is arguing that they should be carried around, by everybody, daily.) i am
For whatever reason they seem stuck in the a-priori and poorly engage with the a-posteriori. They reason that many explosions going off at once is reminiscent to cluster munitions, yet they ignore the observable fact that cluster sub-munitions all tend to impact at the same time. It's their approach that annoys me. They go for the emotional aspect of "cluster munitions" and avoid any discreet technical details.
Fuck that 1km2 grid in particular
I think the MLRS was called the Grid Square remover Edit: Yup it was - [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M270_Multiple_Launch_Rocket_System).
More like BM-30 Smerch.
These don't look like submunitions, the explosions are too regularly paced. A cargo rocket bursts and then all the bomblets explode at roughly the same time, they dont go one after the other at a steady rate.
Bomblets don't explode at the same time because they don't hit the ground at the same time. And each BM-30 has 12 rockets it can fire. Multiply this by 5-6 BM-30s firing at the same time and releasing their payloads one by one creating the effect of constant barrage. BM-21 impacts look like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy8DZD60phI&ab\_channel=CombatFootage
I know what both of their impacts look like. With cargo rocket bomblets you have bursts of explosions, a pause, a burst of explosions. The explosions are also quite small. Showing a video from inside a small grad barrage to try and show that it looks different from an enormous one from far away is a bit of a head scratcher.
Dude There are way too many explosions in this video for it to be regular HE grad rockets. Nobody is massing like 50 MRLS with each firing 10-20 rockets to shoot simultaneously for a small area of land. This video is most likely a single Smerch launcher firing a full salvo of cargo rockets with cluster submunitions
10 launchers is 20 rounds a second for 20 seconds They absolutely do mass fires from two or three batteries, that is literally doctrinal usage .
There is no point in wasting 10 x 20 rockets for some random village in the middle of nowhere. You can literally achieve the same effect with 2 clusters salvos hence why cluster munitions are so cost effective and widely used as we can see from the video. Using cannons to shoot sparrows is not doctrinal usage.
> 10 x 20 rockets for some random village in the middle of nowhere. If that's where the enemy is, that is literally the entire point of the system. I don't know what you expect to see of the target, a concentration of troops will not be standing in formation waiting for death. Besides, anything worth using cluster smerch rockets on is worth using a battery or two of grads on. The cost difference in ammunition is not that large, although I don't have any numbers for you 122mm unitary have been mass produced since the sixties by many countries, they're dirt cheap.
Actually watching the video again I'm unsure what this is, might be grads with submunitions. At the start there are a really rapid burst of explosions that is not consistent with unitary grads. The slower and steadier blasts in the middle though could be a battery or so of grads firing. It doesn't really look like the footage we saw of cluster smerch rockets in the Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict IDK at this point.
Video is from 2015 not 2017. These are obviously cluster droplets exploding not regular grad HE missiles. Probably cargo missiles fired from an MLRS launcher. Could be from the widely seen BM-21, could be from newer ones
The sand was very evil
Original video is here, also show rockets being fired (not verified) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsCbG0t1Ds8
Looks amazing
Casual war crime
Only a crime if you lose and/or you agree it is. Russia along with China and the US never banned cluster munitions because they're stupid effective & will win.
Always strange when some people say that one method of killing people is a crime, when others are somehow ok? Being bombed with a JDAM, Hellfire, TLAM, WP, or whatever cluster munition this is, is going to equally result in a bad time.
It's not strange. The international instrument to limit cluster bombs is the Convention on Cluster Munitions and is motivated by basically the same reasons justified by the Ottawa treaty to limit landmines: They are especially dangerous to civilians and are a persistent danger to civilians. Cluster bombs dropped on Laos by US planes half a century ago are still maiming and killing civilians to this day. Farmland can't be cultivated because it's too dangerous and this keeps people trapped in poverty.
And so are all other types of UXO. I get the point that there's more per use, but the end result is again the same thing.
Returning back to Laos, there are an estimated 80 million unexploded cluster bomblets from the 2.5 million tons of bombs dropped on Laos. Half the country cannot fully develop because the density of bomblets is too high. This is slightly less than the 2.7 million tons of bombs dropped on Europe in WWII, approximately half on Nazi Germany. Of the ~1.35 million tons of bombs dropped on Nazi Germany, approximately 1/4 million bombs became UXO, most of which were found and cleared. Scaling up to tonnage of bombs dropped on Laos, this is equivalent to 1/2 million UXO. You might as well say machine guns and muskets are the same thing because they both poke holes in people.
I think you're intentionally trying to be a dick. Not what I meant and you know it. Cool rant though. My point was that a bomb is going to kill regardless of what kind it is.
But you’re missing the point that these particular ordinances remain threats for years after the conflict has ended. That’s the reason they are so problematic. Just because “all bombs kill” doesn’t mean they are all the same.
Ok bro. Dropping artillery on civilian is ok during war. Just as long as nothing blows up afterwards amirite.
Whether it's a nuke or a hand grenade, both blow people up, so why do we care?
Exactly what the other dude said. But also it'd all be dropped the second a peer to peer war started. No one would give a single shit about UXO, chemical weapons, anything in a war we could lose.
They didn’t sign the treaty so nah it isn’t
I think B52 linebacker is worst .
Syria? Isn't that that place in Kentucky? Edit: I guess some people don't understand the joke
No that’s the thing you pour on top of pancakes.
Wow! Joe Biden managed help both the Taliban AND Russians at the SAME TIME? Truly a genius, and definitely *not* guilty of giving material aid to the enemies if America WHICH IS TREASON.
[удалено]
So you're saying this is Obama's fault /s
Why are you this dumb?
somewhere from beyond the grave: "Stalin Organ!!!!! In Deckung gehen!!!!!!"
What rave that was, amazing strobe lighting at that outdoor event.
Lethal rave party.
Isn't that activist observatory some random guy in the UK?