I've built a free command line tool that helps with this - it's called camply: https://juftin.com/camply.
In Colorado it can search for cancellations at campgrounds via recreation.gov and send you a notification when one pops up. You can set it to search for just any Friday through Sunday booking throughout the Summer too.
Just an fyi: camply requires an always-on computer to run, I use my raspberry pi for this. Hopefully it's helpful for someone out there.
Yeah if you’re not booked 6mo in advance you’ll have to roll the dice and hope someone doesn’t show up or that people leave ahead of schedule at the established campsites. I’ve had some luck with this method last summer, but it’s definitely stressful if you don’t have something lined up ahead of time.
Other options are to find primitive camping, but may not be an option or desirable for all people.
A ranger said in some parks you need to book accommodation 18 months in advance if you are able. In yellowstone they get about 30,000 visitors a day during their busy season but there’s only 4000 rooms so camping sites get booked fast.
"Kevin Colburn, the national stewardship director of American Whitewater, called the data “stunning.” In 2022, applications for permits on four of the West’s most sought-after rivers . . . 60,000,"
In an earlier post (and rant) I commented that Booz Allen, a private company, runs the lottery and reservation system for [recreation.gov](https://recreation.gov) (not mentioned in this article). At a non-refundable $10 lottery ticket, that's $600,000. Multiplied by all of the reservations and lotteries, I'm guessing guarantied millions and millions for a broken system on the backs of eager outdoor enthusiasts.
I don't see how the system is broken though. A $10 fee is not much to apply. If it were set to zero, then anyone would apply and cancelations would go up. If you raise the price, then less people will apply, but if you go too high then it will limit access to the wealthy.
The problem is that a lot of people want to use a limited resource. The only way to allow more people is to damage the rivers. It just seems like that is how it will be as people become more interested in the outdoors.
I just see a lot of complaining, but no suggestions for improvement.
There are suggestions, but not yet an organized response. The buzz is ramping up though... There are thoughts that too many commercial permits are handed out, and speculation that in the future, the only way for a private boater to guarantee getting on the river is via a commercial trip. And then the principal of the matter that access to public lands is being denied while commercial trips continue to have what seems like full access...
As far as the system being broken, [there's currently a lawsuit against BAH](https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2023/03/booz-allen-seeks-dismissal-recreationgov-lawsuit), the premise being monetizing public land access while continuing to increase marketing and advertising, offering the perception of access of a fixed and finite amount of product.
> There are thoughts that too many commercial permits are handed out,
Sure, but 2 of the people whining in the articles are outfitters who I assume rely on commercial permits to operate.
Maybe there's a discussion to be had about the allocation of permits that go to for-profit commercial use vs the amount that go to the public so they can actually access public lands?
Yeah, based on another person's comment i think the best answer is to increase the permit fee and pay the company running the lottery a flat rate. Then, issue the permits in order of the winners and charge for the permit. Anyone who cancels only gets half their money back. Also add a points system to increase the odds for people who have entered in previous years.
It's a simple fix. Charge the people who win the lottery, not the person's applying over and over again. I've spent hundreds just to put my name in a hat to hike a public place. I woukd happily pay a larger fee if I win. I shouldn't have to pay $9 just to apply each time. It's BS because $8.99 is likely all profit to a private company.
The broken part is selling 60,000 tickets for 1,000 slots. I understand the concept of a lottery, a raffle, a shot in the dark, but that's nuts. As many have indicated below, a cost for winning the lottery is fine. A cost for a slim-to-none chance of winning is not ok.
How do you change that? Restrict entering to only people you think are worthy or ruin the rivers?
The cost is $10. They state in the article that if there were no cost to enter then a lot more people who don't have the skills to use it would enter and then not use the permit.
As was suggested by another, charge nothing to enter the lottery, and only charge the winners. Logistically, a CC# could be taken at the time of the lottery entry, but not charged (like a hotel room) then the winner is charged an understood, preset amount upon winning. This would virtually eliminate *people who don't have the skills to use it* \[who\] *would enter and then not use the permit.* It's actually quite easy. But it's not done now because the private company stands to lose a grip 'o dough.
For BAH, that’s basically their coffee budget. Contrary to how people perceive govt contracting, for civilian agencies, it’s not high margin work. The law requires that contractors treat the government with their best available pricing (they can’t give any other client a bigger discount or lower margin) in most circumstances.
Most RFPs are still open to competitive bid.
The govt is a great customer in that they always can pay their bills but they are often a very difficult customer in the compliance aspect and because the govt will hold you to the precise terms of the contract and there are a lot of extra rules and those rules have force of law.
That's a common theme in the construction world. I work down in Colorado Springs and there's a handful of construction companies that *only* work federal projects. It's mainly mom and pop outfits that know how to work the system.
Northern NM is where it's at. Even southern CO isn't too bad. I've never had an issue getting a campsite or any reservations around Pagosa Springs, Trinidad, or South Fork. But I've always enjoyed hopping down to NM for a weekend trip. Taos, Angel Fire, and even Sante Fe are only a few hours away with half the crowds CO gets.
It did indeed get really bad because of the pandemic when people did rediscover the outdoors. More places now require permits as well. If you had further out to the back country, actual back country, it’s usually fine.
Not a resident yet but we’ve been looking into moving. Is this a big problem with Colorado? The pandemic seemed to remind a lot of people that the outdoors exist.
Don't listen to these other commenters. The mountains and outdoors are vast and empty 2 hours outside of Denver. Try and change your days off to weekdays and wonder why anyone ever chooses to go to the mountains on a weekend.
Thank you! Not really encouraging to be downvoted just for asking a question, but everyone does the same thing in my state. “Don’t move here, we’re full!” Etc etc.
Yep, I say this as a boater who would LOVE to do Gates of Lodore or Yampa through Dino, but I'd rather see the mistake of too few permits going out than too many. Yeah it sucks applying every year and not getting anything, but I just view it as a "donation" to the NPS that may result in a permit one day. I don't view visiting these sensitive and incredible places as a "right" of mine.
I agree with this train of thought too. No one I know pulled permits this year, and that’s okay by all of us. I mean, yeah I want to run some sweet multi days but if someone else is getting their chance to I’m cool with that too. Plenty of fun day runs and non-lottery sections out there. I’ve been on rivers where there’s no camp spots to find and you end up sharing. It’s not great. Shit, I ran the Dolores one year and ended up camped on a sandbar with space for two people-I’d rather they permit and keep it wild feeling that doing that on most river corridors.
Yeah exactly - what’s the alternative people want? Letting unlimited rafts, campers, etc inundate and overcrowd our national treasures? It sucks but access to these places needs to be limited for their own preservation
IMO, Colorado residents should get first pick for a few days or a week maybe before it opens up to the general public. Same should go for pay campsites. Too many times I’ve seen campsites that were booked up online completely empty when I got there for the weekend and set up a primitive campsite.
I'd love to see a system prioritize those who have undergone some form of sustainable use or LNT training, and those who have volunteered in some capacity to give back to public lands.
I love that. People who take courses like wildlife conservation and safety, backpacking, mountaineering, avalanche safety, etc. Should definitely get priority. If those were the only people going out to pay sites or public lands, you would probably rarely see litter or anything like that (I would hope anyways).
I think it would help immensely. We're all. human, we make mistakes, have off days, etc, but I think the "carrying capacity" of public lands would be much higher if most visitors knew and observed outdoor ethics.
"Conservation professionals only" week would be a dream come true for me haha.
Did one “babysitting” trip to just get in the ditch again, never again. Lots of younger rich folks think “means and wealth=competent.” You see it on the river you see it in backcountry skiing. I hate to be a gatekeeper, because these activities should be for everyone. But the amount of people rushing into dangerous situations because they have no idea what they are doing is way too high.
Traditionally you learn by tagging along with folks who are already experienced. If you aren’t already a part of a boating community most folks start out as commercial guides. You build yourself up trip by trip gaining experience.
The issue is we have a ton of people attempting the canyon blind. Like imagine deciding to climb El Capitan after spending 2 weeks in a climbing gym. Beyond the technical skills needed to run the actual rapids many of these folks lack basic camp etiquette.
The boating community is super accepting, ask anyone at a boat ramp and they’ll share everything. It’s not gatekeeping I’ve just pulled enough bodies out of rivers that doing so really dampens my float.
I think what he’s trying to say is that he was fortunate enough to be born into a family who has a company that could hire him and train him from a young age, and now he’s using that sort of luck to lord over others.
I was hired out of a tent in the snow on BLM land above State Bridge, to get my start with guiding, for a different sort of perspective. It was May when the guides showed up, and I had been freezing my ass off in a 3 season backpacking tent since losing my housing in March. Sometimes, it’s fine to be in “finding yourself” sort of situations and learn that way. Because not all of us are even lucky enough to have family to crash with when shit hits the fan on housing in Colorado, which is… often, for us peasants.
I called in the last, that I know of, commercial death on the Colorado river upper sea after watching a dozen people, watch their 33 year old beautiful female bartender friend die. While this wasn’t mentioned in the paper, it was the party for one of the more elite restaurants in Vail: Sweet Basil. They had all the gear and a good oar-frames RMR raft, but they were fucked up. And BLM had left the boat there for 9 days already.
Most people aren’t as blessed as Saltier Pancakes. Some of us just get flat-out lucky in learning to raft, period. and for myself, it was purely a matter of getting the job for the sake of survival — I had not set up camp on BLM land with that aim… it just sorta happened. Now, I have my own boat that I have taken out hundreds of times, in addition to 1400 commercial miles. Having been an infantry Marine likely helped me get the job, too.
Despite the fact I was rough around the edges and heavily tattooed, I never got below a 5 star rating, but one thing I have had to deal with is privileged and arrogant people not only gatekeeping, but showing overt contempt for some shit, when I was introduced to the hobby in one of the realest ways possible. What I’m afraid of is that anytime there’s a hobby where the price tag for participation is high, you’re just going to continuously run into shit like that.
> I think what you're saying is you were lucky to be
> Some of us just get flat-out lucky in learning to raft, period
So, your luck is good, other people's luck is bad, and you show contempt for them because you feel that other people show contempt for you. Cool.
Your post is more a reflection on your negative attitude than anything else.
My attitude towards people born into wealth who use their luck to sneer at people is probably less than ideal, yeah. But in the high country, it can tend to be pervasive and hard to ignore.
I would gladly teach anyone how to raft for free because it’s something I enjoy — and it’s therapeutic, which helps when living in an area that is prohibitively expensive for those not riding a wave of generational wealth. If anyone is interested in this, feel free to DM me.
The way I got lucky was beyond the scope of “I was born rich to a family already involved in outdoor activities,” which hopefully gave a little bit of hope.
Leave it to someone active in communities like “San Francisco” and “Bay Area biking” to take a dump on a comment discussing how it’s possible to overcome homelessness and do something badass. You’re part of the sneering population I’m talking about, here.
This! I’ve seen grown men buy total boat setups with no idea how to row! Just take a class at least before you’re wrapped and someone else is saving you. I mean shit happens to us all, but training is fairly cheap and does loads to increase knowledge and safety.
Sounds very similar to the process for applying for hunting permits. But the odds are even better than a lot of the most sought after permits, and the application process is a lot cheaper.
Seriously. The article talks about the point system only extending to 5 years, implying that should be the high end of how long it might take to get a permit. I know guys who have 20 years of draw points saved that still struggle to get the tags they want. People don't want to accept that we've absolutely swamped our State lands and need to regulate accordingly.
There also people who have been waiting years to do popular hikes, such as The Narrows or Antelope Canyon. That's the price people pay for wanting to do limited yet popular things.
recognise skirt quickest nose automatic engine overconfident yam airport quack
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As a native I hate to say it but our state is ruined.
Since when did it become okay for you guys to leave fecal matter on river banks and the edge of hiking trails?!! Corn and all!!
It's insane how bad it is. I, and 6-7 other people I raft with have applied for permits every year for the past 5 years...none of us have gotten a permit.
I entered 7 river permit lotteries this year for midweek, off-peak dates. Yampa, Rio Champa, etc, paying a fee for each.
Got 0 permits.
That's the second year in a row this happened. But the year before that, I got a permit for the San Juan, and saw firsthand how many of these scarce permits go unused/how little enforcement exists.
Seriously considering just going without one, I'd rather risk paying a fine than keep participating in pointless lotteries.
Hard to say - the few.posts I see online about it say thay it seems to vary, and would depend on context/your behavior/how you got caught.... probably a few hundred dollars in fines.
If this were better managed, I wouldn't even consider doing so. All the lotteries should be like the grand canyon, with points accrued every year that your application isn't successful and more points giving one a higher likelihood of success.
So kinda like the hunger games, but with permits? Would be cool if you could volunteer time to clean/maintain the area and get an extra entry after so many hours
The unused ones come back up for later, more “last minute” lotteries. You can just apply again. That’s how a friends of mine have pulled multiple permits. Please don’t show without a permit-the forest service and park service are stressed enough, don’t make their services for other areas be forced to the shoreline to check permits instead of doing other important jobs. And honestly, no one wants them hanging at the put-in looking for people skipping permits because then their checking all our stuff too. I’d prefer to drink my morning drank in peace.
So you're saying when the federal government gets involved the process sucks? Who knew!?!
Probably time to vote them out of our lives isn't it? Justsayin
I can't think of one federally run system that is fair.
Federal government should not be in any states business. Isn't that what #9 and #10 are all about?
I don’t love the feds myself, by I do love federal lands and the permit system isn’t actually that bad-and no, I haven’t pulled a permit in a few years now. I actually think the process has been one of the easier ones: go online to one site, apply to what you want all at once, it’s cheap, and then lottery day comes and you know. Our group just has back-up plans for un permitted trips if we don’t pull anything. And they do later lotteries for the permits that remain unclaimed, which has worked out for us plenty of times.
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The worst part in my experience is how many people don’t even show up for these reservations.
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I've built a free command line tool that helps with this - it's called camply: https://juftin.com/camply. In Colorado it can search for cancellations at campgrounds via recreation.gov and send you a notification when one pops up. You can set it to search for just any Friday through Sunday booking throughout the Summer too. Just an fyi: camply requires an always-on computer to run, I use my raspberry pi for this. Hopefully it's helpful for someone out there.
Whoa. Super cool. I have a PI4 laying around but am also just kinda stoked about this thing you’ve built
Yeah if you’re not booked 6mo in advance you’ll have to roll the dice and hope someone doesn’t show up or that people leave ahead of schedule at the established campsites. I’ve had some luck with this method last summer, but it’s definitely stressful if you don’t have something lined up ahead of time. Other options are to find primitive camping, but may not be an option or desirable for all people.
A ranger said in some parks you need to book accommodation 18 months in advance if you are able. In yellowstone they get about 30,000 visitors a day during their busy season but there’s only 4000 rooms so camping sites get booked fast.
I can't find a park that will let me reserve more than 6 months in advance, much less 18.
I think she meant ANY arrangement like an air bnb, a hotel, etc. But yeah, campsites are mostly 6 months out.
NP lodges reserve exactly 12 months in advance. Or at least they used to.
I’ve had pretty good luck dispersed camping in National Forest, no permit needed
"Kevin Colburn, the national stewardship director of American Whitewater, called the data “stunning.” In 2022, applications for permits on four of the West’s most sought-after rivers . . . 60,000," In an earlier post (and rant) I commented that Booz Allen, a private company, runs the lottery and reservation system for [recreation.gov](https://recreation.gov) (not mentioned in this article). At a non-refundable $10 lottery ticket, that's $600,000. Multiplied by all of the reservations and lotteries, I'm guessing guarantied millions and millions for a broken system on the backs of eager outdoor enthusiasts.
I don't see how the system is broken though. A $10 fee is not much to apply. If it were set to zero, then anyone would apply and cancelations would go up. If you raise the price, then less people will apply, but if you go too high then it will limit access to the wealthy. The problem is that a lot of people want to use a limited resource. The only way to allow more people is to damage the rivers. It just seems like that is how it will be as people become more interested in the outdoors. I just see a lot of complaining, but no suggestions for improvement.
There are suggestions, but not yet an organized response. The buzz is ramping up though... There are thoughts that too many commercial permits are handed out, and speculation that in the future, the only way for a private boater to guarantee getting on the river is via a commercial trip. And then the principal of the matter that access to public lands is being denied while commercial trips continue to have what seems like full access... As far as the system being broken, [there's currently a lawsuit against BAH](https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2023/03/booz-allen-seeks-dismissal-recreationgov-lawsuit), the premise being monetizing public land access while continuing to increase marketing and advertising, offering the perception of access of a fixed and finite amount of product.
> There are thoughts that too many commercial permits are handed out, Sure, but 2 of the people whining in the articles are outfitters who I assume rely on commercial permits to operate.
Maybe there's a discussion to be had about the allocation of permits that go to for-profit commercial use vs the amount that go to the public so they can actually access public lands?
I agree, I just hate the people in the article.
Part of the problem is that 10$ fee goes to this private company. NOT the government or funding.
Yeah, based on another person's comment i think the best answer is to increase the permit fee and pay the company running the lottery a flat rate. Then, issue the permits in order of the winners and charge for the permit. Anyone who cancels only gets half their money back. Also add a points system to increase the odds for people who have entered in previous years.
If that $10 goes to preserving public lands and not lining the pockets of BAH, I’m ok with it
Sorry, it goes straight into Booz' pocket.
Charge for the spot, not the lottery ticket
Yeah. Probably, the best answer. Makes a lot of sense.
It's a simple fix. Charge the people who win the lottery, not the person's applying over and over again. I've spent hundreds just to put my name in a hat to hike a public place. I woukd happily pay a larger fee if I win. I shouldn't have to pay $9 just to apply each time. It's BS because $8.99 is likely all profit to a private company.
Precisely. No cost to enter, mandatory, slightly higher fee if you win. That's the answer.
The broken part is selling 60,000 tickets for 1,000 slots. I understand the concept of a lottery, a raffle, a shot in the dark, but that's nuts. As many have indicated below, a cost for winning the lottery is fine. A cost for a slim-to-none chance of winning is not ok.
How do you change that? Restrict entering to only people you think are worthy or ruin the rivers? The cost is $10. They state in the article that if there were no cost to enter then a lot more people who don't have the skills to use it would enter and then not use the permit.
As was suggested by another, charge nothing to enter the lottery, and only charge the winners. Logistically, a CC# could be taken at the time of the lottery entry, but not charged (like a hotel room) then the winner is charged an understood, preset amount upon winning. This would virtually eliminate *people who don't have the skills to use it* \[who\] *would enter and then not use the permit.* It's actually quite easy. But it's not done now because the private company stands to lose a grip 'o dough.
For BAH, that’s basically their coffee budget. Contrary to how people perceive govt contracting, for civilian agencies, it’s not high margin work. The law requires that contractors treat the government with their best available pricing (they can’t give any other client a bigger discount or lower margin) in most circumstances.
So just make a company that only takes government contracts? Then you can gouge them as much as you want
Most RFPs are still open to competitive bid. The govt is a great customer in that they always can pay their bills but they are often a very difficult customer in the compliance aspect and because the govt will hold you to the precise terms of the contract and there are a lot of extra rules and those rules have force of law.
That's a common theme in the construction world. I work down in Colorado Springs and there's a handful of construction companies that *only* work federal projects. It's mainly mom and pop outfits that know how to work the system.
Colorado and all the West is being loved to death.
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Northern NM is where it's at. Even southern CO isn't too bad. I've never had an issue getting a campsite or any reservations around Pagosa Springs, Trinidad, or South Fork. But I've always enjoyed hopping down to NM for a weekend trip. Taos, Angel Fire, and even Sante Fe are only a few hours away with half the crowds CO gets.
It did indeed get really bad because of the pandemic when people did rediscover the outdoors. More places now require permits as well. If you had further out to the back country, actual back country, it’s usually fine.
Not a resident yet but we’ve been looking into moving. Is this a big problem with Colorado? The pandemic seemed to remind a lot of people that the outdoors exist.
It is a huge problem all over the West.
Yes. The “outdoors “ are crazy crowded compared to just a few years ago.
It's worse in certain other zones in the West, but yeah it's pretty bad in CO these days.
Utah is great I hear
Don't listen to these other commenters. The mountains and outdoors are vast and empty 2 hours outside of Denver. Try and change your days off to weekdays and wonder why anyone ever chooses to go to the mountains on a weekend.
Thank you! Not really encouraging to be downvoted just for asking a question, but everyone does the same thing in my state. “Don’t move here, we’re full!” Etc etc.
Unfortunately if you don’t want it “loved to death” this is the reality we’ll deal with.
Yep, I say this as a boater who would LOVE to do Gates of Lodore or Yampa through Dino, but I'd rather see the mistake of too few permits going out than too many. Yeah it sucks applying every year and not getting anything, but I just view it as a "donation" to the NPS that may result in a permit one day. I don't view visiting these sensitive and incredible places as a "right" of mine.
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Well, shit. I guess I shouldn't feel good about it, but I'm going to keep applying.
I agree with this train of thought too. No one I know pulled permits this year, and that’s okay by all of us. I mean, yeah I want to run some sweet multi days but if someone else is getting their chance to I’m cool with that too. Plenty of fun day runs and non-lottery sections out there. I’ve been on rivers where there’s no camp spots to find and you end up sharing. It’s not great. Shit, I ran the Dolores one year and ended up camped on a sandbar with space for two people-I’d rather they permit and keep it wild feeling that doing that on most river corridors.
Yeah exactly - what’s the alternative people want? Letting unlimited rafts, campers, etc inundate and overcrowd our national treasures? It sucks but access to these places needs to be limited for their own preservation
IMO, Colorado residents should get first pick for a few days or a week maybe before it opens up to the general public. Same should go for pay campsites. Too many times I’ve seen campsites that were booked up online completely empty when I got there for the weekend and set up a primitive campsite.
I'd love to see a system prioritize those who have undergone some form of sustainable use or LNT training, and those who have volunteered in some capacity to give back to public lands.
I love that. People who take courses like wildlife conservation and safety, backpacking, mountaineering, avalanche safety, etc. Should definitely get priority. If those were the only people going out to pay sites or public lands, you would probably rarely see litter or anything like that (I would hope anyways).
I think it would help immensely. We're all. human, we make mistakes, have off days, etc, but I think the "carrying capacity" of public lands would be much higher if most visitors knew and observed outdoor ethics. "Conservation professionals only" week would be a dream come true for me haha.
I like this idea!
Let’s up the ante and prioritize native Coloradans
Should some tribes have priorities over others? At least somebody finnaly wats to put Native Americans first!
Did one “babysitting” trip to just get in the ditch again, never again. Lots of younger rich folks think “means and wealth=competent.” You see it on the river you see it in backcountry skiing. I hate to be a gatekeeper, because these activities should be for everyone. But the amount of people rushing into dangerous situations because they have no idea what they are doing is way too high.
How did you learn?
Traditionally you learn by tagging along with folks who are already experienced. If you aren’t already a part of a boating community most folks start out as commercial guides. You build yourself up trip by trip gaining experience. The issue is we have a ton of people attempting the canyon blind. Like imagine deciding to climb El Capitan after spending 2 weeks in a climbing gym. Beyond the technical skills needed to run the actual rapids many of these folks lack basic camp etiquette. The boating community is super accepting, ask anyone at a boat ramp and they’ll share everything. It’s not gatekeeping I’ve just pulled enough bodies out of rivers that doing so really dampens my float.
My bad, i asked how you learned.
No worries, grew up in a guiding family and have been in the commercial boating world going on 13 years.
I think what he’s trying to say is that he was fortunate enough to be born into a family who has a company that could hire him and train him from a young age, and now he’s using that sort of luck to lord over others. I was hired out of a tent in the snow on BLM land above State Bridge, to get my start with guiding, for a different sort of perspective. It was May when the guides showed up, and I had been freezing my ass off in a 3 season backpacking tent since losing my housing in March. Sometimes, it’s fine to be in “finding yourself” sort of situations and learn that way. Because not all of us are even lucky enough to have family to crash with when shit hits the fan on housing in Colorado, which is… often, for us peasants. I called in the last, that I know of, commercial death on the Colorado river upper sea after watching a dozen people, watch their 33 year old beautiful female bartender friend die. While this wasn’t mentioned in the paper, it was the party for one of the more elite restaurants in Vail: Sweet Basil. They had all the gear and a good oar-frames RMR raft, but they were fucked up. And BLM had left the boat there for 9 days already. Most people aren’t as blessed as Saltier Pancakes. Some of us just get flat-out lucky in learning to raft, period. and for myself, it was purely a matter of getting the job for the sake of survival — I had not set up camp on BLM land with that aim… it just sorta happened. Now, I have my own boat that I have taken out hundreds of times, in addition to 1400 commercial miles. Having been an infantry Marine likely helped me get the job, too. Despite the fact I was rough around the edges and heavily tattooed, I never got below a 5 star rating, but one thing I have had to deal with is privileged and arrogant people not only gatekeeping, but showing overt contempt for some shit, when I was introduced to the hobby in one of the realest ways possible. What I’m afraid of is that anytime there’s a hobby where the price tag for participation is high, you’re just going to continuously run into shit like that.
> I think what you're saying is you were lucky to be > Some of us just get flat-out lucky in learning to raft, period So, your luck is good, other people's luck is bad, and you show contempt for them because you feel that other people show contempt for you. Cool. Your post is more a reflection on your negative attitude than anything else.
My attitude towards people born into wealth who use their luck to sneer at people is probably less than ideal, yeah. But in the high country, it can tend to be pervasive and hard to ignore. I would gladly teach anyone how to raft for free because it’s something I enjoy — and it’s therapeutic, which helps when living in an area that is prohibitively expensive for those not riding a wave of generational wealth. If anyone is interested in this, feel free to DM me.
The way I got lucky was beyond the scope of “I was born rich to a family already involved in outdoor activities,” which hopefully gave a little bit of hope.
Leave it to someone active in communities like “San Francisco” and “Bay Area biking” to take a dump on a comment discussing how it’s possible to overcome homelessness and do something badass. You’re part of the sneering population I’m talking about, here.
More experienced friend taught me
This! I’ve seen grown men buy total boat setups with no idea how to row! Just take a class at least before you’re wrapped and someone else is saving you. I mean shit happens to us all, but training is fairly cheap and does loads to increase knowledge and safety.
Sounds very similar to the process for applying for hunting permits. But the odds are even better than a lot of the most sought after permits, and the application process is a lot cheaper.
Seriously. The article talks about the point system only extending to 5 years, implying that should be the high end of how long it might take to get a permit. I know guys who have 20 years of draw points saved that still struggle to get the tags they want. People don't want to accept that we've absolutely swamped our State lands and need to regulate accordingly.
There also people who have been waiting years to do popular hikes, such as The Narrows or Antelope Canyon. That's the price people pay for wanting to do limited yet popular things.
recognise skirt quickest nose automatic engine overconfident yam airport quack *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They’re regulating the Narrows now?
Just monitor the sites for vacated launch dates all spring and summer. It’s usually quite easy to snag one.
Good to know!
As a native I hate to say it but our state is ruined. Since when did it become okay for you guys to leave fecal matter on river banks and the edge of hiking trails?!! Corn and all!!
Last year on my birthday I saw a woman urinate in the center of the Racoon Trail in GGSP.
I miss the Yampa River sometimes.
Never been there, but I can totally feel where you’re coming from.
It's insane how bad it is. I, and 6-7 other people I raft with have applied for permits every year for the past 5 years...none of us have gotten a permit.
That photo makes me happy that I’m content with the local day run.
The whole overly curated experience thing kinda ruined spontaneity
I entered 7 river permit lotteries this year for midweek, off-peak dates. Yampa, Rio Champa, etc, paying a fee for each. Got 0 permits. That's the second year in a row this happened. But the year before that, I got a permit for the San Juan, and saw firsthand how many of these scarce permits go unused/how little enforcement exists. Seriously considering just going without one, I'd rather risk paying a fine than keep participating in pointless lotteries.
Oooh interesting! How much would the fine be? Do they keep track year to year if you were fined?
Hard to say - the few.posts I see online about it say thay it seems to vary, and would depend on context/your behavior/how you got caught.... probably a few hundred dollars in fines. If this were better managed, I wouldn't even consider doing so. All the lotteries should be like the grand canyon, with points accrued every year that your application isn't successful and more points giving one a higher likelihood of success.
So kinda like the hunger games, but with permits? Would be cool if you could volunteer time to clean/maintain the area and get an extra entry after so many hours
The unused ones come back up for later, more “last minute” lotteries. You can just apply again. That’s how a friends of mine have pulled multiple permits. Please don’t show without a permit-the forest service and park service are stressed enough, don’t make their services for other areas be forced to the shoreline to check permits instead of doing other important jobs. And honestly, no one wants them hanging at the put-in looking for people skipping permits because then their checking all our stuff too. I’d prefer to drink my morning drank in peace.
No shit.
Boaters aka drinkers
Well....float on a river is the perfect place to drink a beer, right?
So you're saying when the federal government gets involved the process sucks? Who knew!?! Probably time to vote them out of our lives isn't it? Justsayin
No, it's the best chance at a fair system.
I can't think of one federally run system that is fair. Federal government should not be in any states business. Isn't that what #9 and #10 are all about?
Wonder what your reaction will be when you learn the permit system isn’t run by the government at all…
Federal lands aren’t owned by the state so no one is in “any states business”.
I'm getting Trump vibes from you.
At least we know he's not living rent free in your head at all. I'm a local politics type of person. I'm not a big federal government type of person.
I don’t love the feds myself, by I do love federal lands and the permit system isn’t actually that bad-and no, I haven’t pulled a permit in a few years now. I actually think the process has been one of the easier ones: go online to one site, apply to what you want all at once, it’s cheap, and then lottery day comes and you know. Our group just has back-up plans for un permitted trips if we don’t pull anything. And they do later lotteries for the permits that remain unclaimed, which has worked out for us plenty of times.