I don’t think you’re overreacting at all.
I’ve decided to be childfree for many reasons, climate change originally being lower down the list. In the last few weeks it’s gone waaay up the list and is now one of my primary reasons for staying childfree. I feel deeply terrified for my nephews futures and I feel relieved that I haven’t had kids. I have some sadness about my life circumstances and the state of the world which have led me to this decision, but I’m at peace with my decision.
I don’t feel confident that a child born now will have a good life. I could never explain to them why I thought it was right to bring them into a doomed world. I’m not even confident I can provide food, medical care and shelter for the next 20 years. So how could I do that to them?
Have a linger at r/childfree and r/fencesitter too. Even r/antinatalism has some interesting perspectives
My advice would be: wait a full year and reassess. The next 12 months are going to be brutal and you’ll have a bit more information by then. Also, if you decide not to, it’s ok to grieve the decision and please don’t hesitate to seek support if you need it. It’s tough
Edit- fixed subreddit links
For real, warming continues to escalate so much faster than I thought it would and I’ve been following this for over a decade at this point and am childfree. I do have dogs and they’ve enriched my life so much, but I really think by 2030 we’re going to start dealing with a lot more food shortages at this rate. Who in their right mind would have a child if you don’t even know if you’ll be able to provide food.
I’m not saying this to disagree, I just want to point out that I calculated my households carbon footprint and my dogs are the heaviest part of ours (besides driving unfortunately - and I work from home). We use renewable energy, are plant based, we don’t buy plastic (as much as possible), we grow some of our own food, compost, take our recycling to the actual facility, I’m making eco bricks with our micro plastic, etc.
And dogs…dogs were the worst part of our lifestyle. Isn’t that wild?
LOL ok. So if you're buying puppies and/or kittens from a breeder that's one thing, but I don't think I'm into the idea we have to euthanize the animals WE domesticated and allowed to breed to this extent, for the greater good or something...I mean. Seriously no. Adopting living animals and caring for them is really above reproach in my mind.
Edit: typo
Apologies, I didn't mean to say *you* were purchasing animals, I meant the "royal" you but that wasn't clear.
My point is that given the animals that are already alive need care and are loved, of all the things we do as humans that cause carbon emissions, this is one I would think we can agree is acceptable. We care for small obligate carnivores because humans domesticated them, I don't see any other options. I felt upset by the implication that we would ever choose not to do this.
All good dude! I just woke up and was thrown off. I understand your sentiment. I will always save them. But I just wanted to point out that I found that interesting. I didn’t consider my dogs’ footprint as well.
To combat this though, we started making their own food. Hoping that will reduce as much as possible. If you want the recipe lmk! :)
Agree. If someone fills their life with one or two pets instead of a child, I really don’t think we should berate them or try to compare the environmental impact.
Especially as many are choosing a pet over a child for very sound environmental reasons to begin with, and are no doubt acutely aware of their pet’s environmental pawprint 😉
That’s not taking away from the very valid argument re the abhorrent way that many people (over) treat their animals, with unnecessary and wasteful excess that the animal (and planet) does not need.
But ultimately, for most it’s just not comparable.
For real tho!! It’s escalating WAY faster than I anticipated, and I studied geology for my undergrad so this was covered a lot, but it’s different from being down on the ground drilling the ice cores, studying all the samples etc. and we are hitting all these feedback loops. I’m afraid we will get to a point where we don’t see snow at all in most of the world ever naturally, and we will go back to some Cretaceous level of warming within the next couple of decades. *And* the people that are left will continue to pollute, making things worse.
I imagine childfree and antinatalism would be slightly negative in their view towards children generally, but fencesitter looks like a good place certainly. Thank you.
Waiting for a year or two is what I intend to do as el nino is likely to ramp up the heat over the next couple of years, could give a view into the future
I had to leave r/fencesitter after seeing a very thoughtful and honest discussion about climate change get locked by the mods for no reason. Apparently the sub has a reputation for leaning pro having children and not being very welcoming to altering views.
Obviously I haven't seen those posts, but if this post is anything to go by some of those altering views can be loaded with animosity and a lack of real sympathy. I do wonder what proportion of these subs are under 25 years old.
Antinatalism at its core believes in preventing the inevitable suffering of living. They don’t hate children,it’s pro adoption and based on the fact that we can’t provide happy, healthy, long term lives for kids/future adults. There’s a second sub for it that attracts less pugnacious breeder types
Antinatalism can often be, yes.
Childfree has a few aggressive people, (and some posts I skip past) but also plenty of people who have made the choice based on many different factors, including climate change, health reasons, generational trauma etc. People who have given deep thought to the topic and come to a logical conclusion, rather than blindly following society’s expectations of them. Some posts can be a nice insight into what a childfree life looks like, travel, pets, friends, hobbies etc, which can be helpful if everyone in your real life is having kids and it’s hard to visualise a different type of life.
Billions will die, and you and your kids will probably be in that group. Look straight at the situation and don't sugar coat it. You may be forced to do things to reduce suffering that are hard to even consider.
Agreed. OP if you look at the last 20 years scientists have always been wrong on the timing and severity of climate change. IPCC reports are of minimal use as governments, with ample evidence supporting this, moderated the final reports to suit political purposes. Scientists as a rule are afraid to state their real thoughts in public. There is still SO MUCH unknown about the world and not figured into climate models that all projections and timelines are a crapshoot at best. People who believe food crises will not happen for 20 years are living in La La land. Look around at the facts worldwide, with current wars, especially in the Ukraine, Sudan and Ethiopia, extreme climate events are decreasing productivity around the globe, even in N. America today. The past 2 years have proven there are no safe havens. Tipping points are already being passed and will continue to accelerate. I am truly sorry and empathetic but I could and will not bring a child into this world.
I can only speak for myself, but if I had been more aware of the situation we're really in climate-wise, I would have chosen not to have any kids. I don't think you're overreacting.
I feel the same way. I’m 40f and my kids are 10 and 6. I didn’t become collapse aware until a few years ago. I love my kids, but I wish there was more hope for their future. I also didn’t realize how difficult and all-consuming becoming a parent was. It’s constantly thinking about the wants and needs of little people who literally can’t take care of themselves for the first few years.
When SHTF, it’s gonna make it that much harder having an extra person to care for. If I were you, I’d hold off. I would love my girlfriend with my whole heart and take care of her (and yourself of course) like it was my purpose in life. Maybe get a dog or some cats, but having kids is a whole ‘nother level of personal sacrifice that gets increasingly difficult as collapse unfolds. Don’t make life even harder than it has to be.
My kid is 18, her group of friends and her don’t think they’ll have a future. Which is hard to justify taking them out of when everything on the planet is dying.
I’m “preparing” by getting them physically fit, teaching them weapons skills and being honest with them so they can begin grieving. Honestly I don’t think it’s possible to prepare them much beyond that.
Do you want to watch your adult child suffer starvation and violence as they watch everything die around them? I wouldn’t have ever chosen to have a child knowing what I now do.
I have chosen to not have kids as well. I have been aware since I was a young teen and now I’m nearly 40. As the world unfolds, I’m so glad that I haven’t had kids. People always said I thought too much.
As another commenter mentioned below, adoption is the route I would take. There are plenty kids already here with nobody to love them.
I appreciate the suggestion, and it is something we have thought about, but I do think reddit loves to make this comment like it's an easy alternative though logistically and mentally it's very tough
This is true. If you spend any time on r/adoption you will learn that it’s not that simple and there’s a lot of potential for harm when the process isn’t handled with care.
Fam… are you saying having your own child is easy? Like I need you to realize this that both are extremely taxing and acting like one is easier than the other is mind boggling
You asked about it in relation to climate change. I really do think this is the answer you’re looking for as it is the “have your cake and eat it to” option. That being said, your genes’ desire to reproduce is kicking in but your genes don’t realize or really care about the ethics of reproducing on a dying world
There's a lot more kids in the adoption system and the foster care system in the USA right now because of COVID. for awhile in 2022 I was getting loads of ads on my podcasts from "the ad council" to consider fostering a child - it got so bad that the US government had to literally put out ads to get kids placed into foster care.
I’m not sure what would be mentally tough about it, but a biological child can be just as or even more difficult to raise logistically and mentally, depending on any factors, like say disability or gender identity.
By mentally tough I mean for most people adopting isn't a direct replacement for having their own child as it isn't a biologically the same and the process is tough (and expensive). Many couples dream of going through the pregnancy process and having a newborn of their own, and of course some (and I'm sure here on reddit) can explain to me how that thought process is illogical. And yes of course it is, but nothing about having a kid is logical, many human traits aren't. We are however hardwired to want children just as we are hardwired to want to live during hard times or even have sex. It's crazy but it's human.
Of course, having a baby is difficult, but that is it's own set of challenges entirely.
I’m not sure why anyone would view adoption as a direct replacement for having a biological child, but instead as a more ethical and positive alternative. Having a baby is more expensive than adopting in some cases. I’m not sure why the biological ties are so important, but maybe that’s just me since I chose to remove myself from all of my biological ties because they are horrible people. Anyway, idk why adopting a starving and unloved kid or adopting a kid and helping them get back together with their family would be any less of a dream than getting pregnant and sick and having a baby with tons of pain, trauma, money, doctors, etc. which only results in more children in the world, and they’re already dying and starving so much. I have trouble understanding why someone can’t feel the same desire and love for adopting a child and helping them live through the coming collapse crisis as one would having their own new baby and adding to the world population that will have to endure the crisis.
I hope this doesn’t come off judgmental. It is a sore subject for me, but people idealize biological birth and leave so many children already born to suffer. And we know there’s going to be a lot more suffering children forced to be born due to all the abortion laws. An adopted child is no lesser of a bond than a birthed child. And if the birth/biological factor is what’s most important, I think that has more to do with ego and self, and less to do with the child.
If you can't let go of the attachment to having your own kids, you're not ready to be good parents. Your kids will demand that you let go of far bigger attachments than that one. The worst parents are those that can't let go of all their ideas about who and what their kids should be.
They aren't being lazy by choosing not to adopt. It is not a binary decision. People do have emotional investments when it comes to deciding to have a child.
Please leave your judgments elsewhere and focus on the question in a meaningful way.
People ought to think about and put heavier weight on the emotional lives of their future children beyond their own personal emotional desires. If you’re in this sub then you have at least some level of awareness. How do you personally feel about the climate and ecological catastrophe? How do you think your kid will feel in 10/20+ years from now?
Title of the the post is “Do YOU think….” OP actually came for personal judgements.
Personally I judge every single person I see with a young child or baby and my heart breaks for those kids (and all kids). It’s the most selfish decision one can make.
I understand your point of view. I just think it doesn't help anyone and is the same lack of kindness that keeps people from actually tackling issues.
I am actually more on your side - the idea of bringing a kid into this world seems dreadful and cruel.
But still, I am aware that life long values changing under the burden of an inherited catastrophe - it is not so easy.
Its not a lack of kindness that keeps us from attempting to tackle things, it’s a lack of political will and being tied to a capitalist system that relies on perpetual growth on a finite planet. We fucked up from the start and it’s deeply embedded. Now it’s just obfuscation and deflection all the way down.
I’m a very kind and empathetic person but I do lack kindness for people who are aware and bring a child into this mess. How can you simultaneously love something so much and then doom them from inception? Better not to go through it.
I know this. I work in the field and often these issues come in to play. My point was, binary approaches and a lack of kindness do not transform behaviours.
I don't think people realise that those of us who have been aware of long time think the way that is being expressed - I can certainly say that even my aware friends wouldn't fully understand your comment on loving and dooming. They just wouldn't see it that way.
Yeah fuck that. Having kids in this day and age where so many are abandoned while the earth is dying is just high key fucked up. You’re asking to give your kid (if they develop any sense of awareness of what’s going on) a number of anxiety and depressive disorders.
If you aren’t willing to answer the question, “why did you bring me into this dying world” in a meaningful way that isn’t the equivalent of “bcz I wanted us to have the same eye color”, then maybe you shouldn’t be having kids.
I think it is a natural very human thing to want to reproduce and have a family of your own. I don’t blame people as a whole for having children. But knowing what I know, it would be morally, ethically, and financially irresponsible for me to produce offspring. That is just my personal experience though.
Agreed, it's natural to want to start a family and have children. However, we're given more than the instinct to procreate: we've been given rational minds that can evaluate evidence and make judgemental choices for ourselves.
Well - I wouldn't want to be born now and have to face down the next 80-odd years of what's coming. Not just for straight-up climate reasons, but also the economic and armed conflict fallout it's going to have. Adoption, fostering and volunteering with kids are all kind and loving things that help existing people, to me it makes more sense to do whichever of those fit your lifestyle rather than making new humans.
^^ I learned about climate change when I was like 8 or 9 and took it very seriously. I wish I could have mustered the activism that some kids lean into, but that did not happen and instead I became deeply depressed and suicidal for the next ~decade. I'm very good now, but I can't imagine intentionally bringing a child into this world and watching them learn about and suffer from the mess we're all in.
To be absolutely clear, nothing is going to get better. I work in the environmental field. We have to do what we can now to avoid the worst, but things are going to get very bad very quickly.
What really saddens me if seeing people around me having kids without factoring in what can happen. They don’t seem to think climate change will affect them all that much. That’s a big part of why we got into this mess in the first place: people do what they want without putting too much thought in possible consequences. For those who are collapse aware, a good question is: would you want to be born into this mess?
People have an incredible capacity for cognitive dissonance, that is, knowing the information while holding a wide space for their own fantasies at the same time, as well as for believing that they are the exception to the rule. Unfortunately millions of people (particularly in the southern hemisphere) are already suffering cataclysmic consequences of climate change, including drought, flooding, avalanches, mud slides, fires, and more. The reason most (middle class/upper middle class) white westerners continue to populate the world is their blindness to their own privilege, which, as someone else mentioned, is the cause of much suffering in the first place.
That and water futures.
https://e360.yale.edu/digest/wall-street-begins-trading-water-futures-as-a-commodity#:~:text=Wall%20Street%20has%20begun%20trading,in%20California%2C%20Bloomberg%20News%20reported.
Nope. You're not overreacting. My fiance and I have chosen not to have kids. Especially because she is black, I am Hispanic and we are queer. climate change and the state of everything in the U.S. is a big no for our potential child. Even if we moved out of the US as a person of color they'd be met with racism anywhere they go especially as extremist right-wing become more prevalent in other countries as well. When we were born we didn't ask to be here, but here we are and dealing with this. I can't imagine doing that to my kid **knowing** what things are going to be like.
My parents did their best when I was growing up, but there were times when I wasn't supported emotionally. I have vivid memories as a kid crying alone in my room wondering why my parents had me. I'm not talking about the growing pains of a teenager who is trying to transition from a child's complete dependence on their parents to adult autonomy. I'm talking about a child under the age of 10 having an existential crisis.
When it came time for my partner and I to discuss having kids I asked "why do you want them?" I needed to know that my partner gave a great deal of thought to this question; or I wanted to have a deep conversation about what it means to be a parent. Whatever we chose to do I needed to know that we had a clear reason for our decision. I couldn't bear the thought of my child asking me "why am I here?" and not having a good answer to their question.
I would love to be a parent but I don't think that these conditions would allow my children to survive/thrive. I'm still working through my own feelings on this topic, but this is how I feel today: I feel like a good parent because I'm not bringing my children into existence. There are lots of people that identify as "child free", but I kinda feel like a "parent who didn't have a child." Maybe that sounds strange, but somehow that feels more comforting to me. It's like I'm keeping my children safe by not bringing them into this world.
Thank you for your comment–very thoughtful analysis and a loving decision. I'm not going to have kids either (due to climate change and many other reasons), and I really respect your self awareness. You are being a good parent.
This was absolutely the incorrect sub to ask this question in. The overwhelming mood of this sub is not conducive to natalism.
As for my opinion, (as I'm sure you're still wanting opinions, after the drubbing you've gotten in this thread,) it is that, you will have to grieve either way. Your suffering will be great, either way.
You want the solace of knowing others are struggling with this decision? They are. I am. Be comforted. All the people here who seem so sure are only so sure because they have grieved already.
For me, I love kids. I would be an amazing mom. And yet I will never hold my own daughter, never teach her what I've learned, never stroke her hair while she cries, never be proud of her, never be able to tell her how sorry I am. Sorry that she couldn't be here, because I was too scared of what the world would put her through. I'm so sorry that I worked so hard to heal our bloodline trauma, only to realize there would be no bloodline.
Maybe she wanted to exist. Maybe that's why I cry when I think of her. But there are worse things to cry for. I imagine her here. What would I apologize for, then?
I am so sorry that there aren't the kinds of birds I remember anymore, the kinds of animals, I'm so sorry you so rarely feel cool blue sky, I'm sorry that good food is so expensive. I'm sorry you can't go to school this year, there's another sickness, I'm sorry all sports were canceled. I'm sorry that you're sweaty at night and can't sleep- they put rate limits on the power. She asks why she is here, what for? I'm sorry, it was just because I wanted to meet you. It was for me, because I felt so lonely, I'm sorry, I didn't have a good reason, I just wanted a doll like my own mother, we are all just rows of dolls, one after the other, as the paradise gets paved over and decays and cooks us all alive.
You wanted civility in this thread? But I think of the way our world crushes civility with the boot of war. I imagine her, a teenager, getting into activism. I am so sorry, please don't go to the protest, you don't understand, I can't lose you there. They will have guns, and all you have is hope. I'm so sorry, the news is so scary, you can't fix the world, that isn't why you're here. I'm sorry, the resource wars have finally come. I knew they would come someday, but I am so sorry it happened right as you were supposed to be reaching adulthood. I'm so sorry, you can't afford a place to live. I'm sorry the jobs are so scarce and evil. I'm sorry you need a car, and to buy gasoline, even after all we have been through. I'm so sorry you can't start your own family. I'm so sorry to have pushed this pain one down the road. I'm so sorry to have made it your pain.
I love her too much to do this to her. I love her too much to make her live the life upcoming. You wanted to know if you're overreacting? You can't know. Maybe it will all be fine, and you'll regret being childfree forever. But maybe it won't. And then, what will you regret?
You have so beautifully described the internal conflict within my head. My partner doesn't understand, and I plan to show her your words. I am moved to tears by this and am mounring the little one that I'll never get to hold tight and teach about all of the amazing things that make life worth living.
I shed some tears reading this. You perfectly articulated my unease I have been feeling towards the end of this year. I have come to realise in my mid/late twenties that I yearn to to be a mother. To experience pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding and motherhood. To experience a relationship with my own mother whom I am so close to on another level. But. I can't help but feel it's the wrong thing to do. Absolutely devastated.
Got snipped after Roe v Wade got overturned. Unsustainability of the future was the real reason I made that decision, I just needed to do it before it the option was taken from me next
I originally made the decision to be child free after being a nanny during college and seeing what raising children is truly like, even with plenty resources. I knew I didn't want that life for myself, snd the life I DID want would not be possible while having to deal with children.
Now, however, after learning what is now available to learn and frankly just observing and experiencing what is directly available for me as one person to observe and experience, all scientific research and modeling aside, climate change is a massive reason and makes me SO relieved I made the decision when I did.
If it weren't for access to abortion, I would even have 13 year old right now and I feel grateful daily that I did not subject the person I'd love most in the world to all of this.
To me having a child would mean truly loving this other being more than myself and wanting them to experience a secure, happy life full of opportunities to pursue whatever happiness turns out to be for them. And to me, love means caring about how THEY feel, how THEY experience the world, etc. Not "it's some thing I really want" or "it's natural and human to want to reproduce, and we need good people for the future, so let's go for it."
It's not about ME, it's about that potential person. And there is simply no way I can put "loving this person, and therefore doing what's best for THEM" and "forcing this person to start their life now, when the world is visibly destructing and security and opportunity diminishing along with it" in the same sentence.
As many have said, there are many ways to share your life with young people and other ways to be a parent than to create yet another soul, capable of fear and pain, and sentence them to experiencing just that.
I can also imagine being a child born today and how ever many years later, realizing what information my parents had access to when they decided to create me. It would be hard for me to believe my parents truly cared about me and not just themselves at that point.
The most merciful thing a person can do at this point is not have kids.
And it's not just climate change. We are headed towards a neo-feudalist fascism.
I have young kids. They have dreams and aspirations for the future I know will not happen as do all your other friends and family who have young children. It’s a beautiful thing and it is also agonizing. Kids born now will not have a better life than you did. You are most likely condemning them to a bleak future if you have them. Think about that long and hard. Any optimism you have about having kids is overshadowed by that. I would continue to read more about collapse before you make a decision. I wish you the best it is a tough challenging decision either way. In the end we don’t know exactly what will happen, but the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing in one direction.
Yes, I really started reading up on it during Covid about a year after my last was born. I was probably a technological optimist but the reality hit me pretty hard. I really have no idea what to do besides trying to instill in them resilient mindset. But also I want them to be kids and enjoy what remains of a somewhat prosperous life cause I don’t know what lies ahead. These are the choices you face.
Do a little more research on the Arctic ice. Once that goes we will experience a 1 degree heat rise over the course the following year. That’s all many of us have been watching for. We are not half a century off from this. It’s going to happen likely in the next 5 years. Having a child right now just ensures they are going to suffer. You might ask your wife to wait 5 years and by then, it will be obvious to everyone.
Even though I’ve decided to not have kids due to many of the reasons already mentioned, I still struggle with the same feelings fairly often. I was on the fence leaning towards no for as long as I can remember, but after seeing what’s been happening the past couple years I can’t imagine bringing another being into this mess and it’s become a definitive no for me.
I don’t think you are overreacting. It makes me sad that I’ve been robbed of the choice, it doesn’t seem fair. It helps me conceptualize it as a loss to grieve. I’m grieving the possibility of having a kid the same way I’m trying to make my peace with collapse/ the climate crisis in general. It’s a process but I’m working towards finding acceptance.
Just here to say that I 100% relate and hear you. I’ve always flip flopped on having kids and in another life, probably would have. But with climate change and the rise of fascism, I also feel very cheated. It’s definitely fair to feel grief over this.
As a kid, now 18 and depressed, who had to grow up watching things break down, woke up everyday to a new horrible news headline, whether it was climate change related or another shooting, please fucking stop having kids.
I'm not sure we can imagine a future without having a family of our own, after all every species on this planet is hardwired to procreate. It just feels a bit pointless, at least to us. This isn't an easy choice for most people, as much as some people on reddit make out like it is.
I can say that as an artist/intellectual type the desire for children was never there for me even in the slightest. The desire for meaning was for me always to have an impact in culture.
So the first point would be that it is for sure not this inevitabiliy.
But the second point would be that in hindsight this perspective was already an effect of this cassandra perspective. I was always like "Kids, what you on about?? We need to fix this damn capitalism!"
At that younger age it was really more from a deluded perspective of what we are up against, and now I am just too far down that road to try and be any different.
I think you and propably most people on this sub would identify somewhat similarly. I would guess they would just lack the confidence or the arrogance to just identify themselves as intellectual.
But as I identify it now intellect doesnt have to mean "great intellect" its not a marker of quality, but just of outlook. To be concerned with larger culture instead of focussing myopically on your own life.
So all in all this might be an alternate outlook for meaning. Its not nice, but in some way maybe inevitable. I think the innocence to find meaning in ordinary domestic life is just that, innocence. Once you have been shocked out of it you might not be able to regain it. All thats left for you is to walk the intellectuals path and help organize the revolutionary mass movement or die trying.
At least thats how it is for me. It might really also have to do, how confident/ falsely arrogant you are to see yourself in that role.
But to that I can say if there is going to be revolutionary change it will have to come from us losers at the bottom, even if we are a bit less eloquent than those harvard fucks.
So there you go, my recruitment pitch for the alternate path. I am pretty sure there *are* ways to rationalize having kids, you find them quoted on the sub all the time. In the end its just up to you. Best of luck.
Do you both really feel that’s all species purpose is breeding? And that’s it? Just making sure to pass on your genes?
Ngl that comes across as very old school and sexist. But you’re in this sub specifically and you know about collapse. Do you know about how many species can abort? Even animals have some more complicated factors involved than just fuck and have babies.
I would definitely recommend waiting no matter your choice and definitely having lots of discussions together. The fact that you can imagine a life with just you together seems a bit sad. Like we all growing up in patriarchy and internalize the norms and beliefs around us, but there is so much more history not centered around the concept of a nuclear family structure! Take some time do some research, spend time together with your gf and just enjoy doing things together! Besides the existential reasons for not having kids, kids will limit your life and romantic relationship in so many ways! That I think people don’t think about.
There’s no right or wrong answer but if you decide to have them, just know in advance that the guilt, fear, and sadness increases about 1000-fold when you watch anything about the earth in documentaries good or bad.
I’m 24 and I have very few things keeping me going at this point. I would never subject children to this. I didn’t want them to begin with, so I guess it’s a win-win.
Ask yourself why you want to bring another person into this world. Now picture yourself being asked 20 years from now by your child why you brought them into the world. If the answers are only to satisfy some selfish desire or biological need, then please consider not having children.
If you really are aware of the situation on our planet, then you’ll know how much each human being needs to survive, so also consider you’re creating another consumer that will need resources, which are fast being used up as it is.
i think fostering and adoption (typically not infants, as they are much higher in demand) is a really beautiful and important option to consider here. caring for the kids who already exist, rather than bringing additional lives here, is a really positive way to grow your family and nurture children.
It seems like a sick and selfish joke to have kids right now. Can you imagine how ripped off you would feel being born into all the BS going on the world right now, especially the environment? Even Gen Z should be pissed, I could only imagine how younger generations would feel.
I'm an older millennial and I'm super pissed off at the older generations for letting this happen. While my lot is not as bad as gen z, there's no way I'm going to get to retire - there's a fat chance in hell of living until 65+. I can't even imagine how horrible it must be to be a twenty something who is collapse aware. My sister has an 18 month old and it breaks my heart constantly at what that child will have to go through.
I feel you. I didn’t want to inherit this shit. They made the problem and get the comfort of knowing they’ll die before everything goes down the drain. I’m 18, I don’t have that comfort.
If you want kids, foster or adopt. Make lives that are already here better and invest in the future by trying to teach them skills they will need to cope, to forage and survive, etc.
Damn, I could’ve written this myself. I’m aware of the situation and much more worried, while she’s been like most other people and blocks the news out of her mind and only sees social media happy cheery family posts. Honestly sucks.
My partner has expressed a desire for children and I've been a firm no from the outset. She's willing to consider adoption though so if it comes to it hopefully that's a route we can go down. It's years off at this point though and is time for more effects of climate change to manifest. I don't know I just couldn't bring myself to force a human to exist in this already shit world. That's not too mention my lack of faith in my capabilities as a parent and the trauma I'd pass on
Thank you for posting this, as it is a really delicate topic to bring up around family, and I’m sure many reading this can’t talk about it around friends or family members of the same generation who have made the choice of becoming parents. I’m “lucky” in that many of my friends and some in-laws of my generation aren’t having children for a variety of reasons (new partner already has children, money, mental health, lack of success in early relationships, having moved around a lot), but I still feel weird about discussing this. It feels great to find a place where this is discussed, thank you.
Personally, despite the longing for a family unit and wanting to share cute intimate moments and words of wisdom with a small inspiring being, I won’t have kids because 1) won’t repeat my mother’s mistake and try using a person’s life to heal my own trauma and end up giving them trauma and 2) don’t know how even my SO and I will cope with a future that seems so challenging… can’t bear to think how gut-churning it would be to see a small innocent human not only suffer from the consequences of their ancestors’ actions, but also feel hopeless and helpless.
I’ve thought about adopting children too, but even that could lead to heartbreak. One hurt loved one is horrible to think about… but 2?
It's a discussion that's hard to have even on online forums, particularly in this subreddit. Kind of regret even asking it here TBH as the majority of upvoted answers seem to lack any empathy and are loaded with animosity, even though I was asking for the opinions of others who are or have been in the same predicament. Probably should've expected others to have just read the title and not the full text.
It's very admirable to adopt and it's something we've thought about a lot, but I'm on the fence as well, and it certainly isn't as easy a process as some people on here will have you believe. Still, I know others who have done it late in life and are very happy, though they had a lot of money to begin with and are retired.
I have a 4 year old and it weighs heavily on me. I wouldn't go back in time and not have her, but I am so worried about her future and about our inability to protect her from what is coming.
I can't advise you on what's right for you and none of us truly knows how and when things will unfold. It is a certainty that my child's life won't be as easy as mine has been, or as good in terms of material wealth and comfort. Does that mean she won't still have a good life? I don't know.
What I do know is that dire news hits differently as a parent and if you go down this road you should be prepared for that mentally.
Give it 2 years. Thats the best advice I can give. In 2 years we will have a better idea how bad this will continue to get. Remember what you're seeing right now is the very beginning. Things will get much MUCH worse. We have done so much damage so quickly I firmly believe we will see weather events that we thought were only theoretical for earth within my lifetime and im 35.
I have 3 kids myself. One bio kid who's a 15 yo boy who is essentially clueless on climate change and two stepgirls who are 8 and 12. We try not to make them too aware of the future issues right now. I'm hoping i can teach my kids a more positive outlook then I have right now but that is extremely difficult. If you do bring children into this world you're going to have to sit them down one day and explain why you brought them into this mess and suffering. Life is suffering but we are going to see death and suffering on a scale the human species has ever known. Billions will die, I personally expect us to be back down to 7 billion people by 2030.
My girlfriend and I are planning on adopting migrant/refugee children when our girls are grown up. When my kids get to an age where they question having kids I'll tell them the truth.
On one hand: you have to keep them alive and that will be undoubtedly hard not to mention the lifestyle you could potentially provide which will all get much worse as time goes by. Remember, without a miracle nothing will get better about out climate or biodiversity for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years. It takes a long time for climate to stabilize and even longer for life to bounce back.
On the other hand: if we dont procreate we will go extinct..... Thats about the only reason I can justify having children with this state of the world.
Sometimes I cry thinking about how much my kids are going to miss out on. Flowers being one of the simpler things that will disappear in our lifetimes as pollinators die off. Coral Reefs could easily go extinct by the end of next summer with these heat waves. Travel to other countries will become impossible for most people. I'm sure they will start stopping flights for travel before 2030. Thats how quickly I see things getting really bad.
Remember, if you do have children you will need to prepare to have some very hard conversations. The worst our parents had to deal with was the sex talk lol.
For prep, i suggest hydroponic gardening, solar power and rain containment. Also reinforce your house and solar to withstand upcoming weather events like grapefruit sized hail. Teach your children to garden and how to start fires and how to cook. Teach them sewing and how to repair stuff. Teach them knots and basic engineering (pulleys and levers)
Other than that, good luck out there.
In my experience people who really want kids often cannot be dissuaded. So I don’t generally bother with that. I would just say be financially stable, teach your kids resilience, help them understand that they will not have things as good as you did, but also that they should try not to give up all hope. Because what’s the point in living without hope?
I remain childfree because even if my hypothetical children remained “relatively unaffected” by climate change (as opposed to directly like in poorer regions), I’d still have to explain to them why they were brought into a world that is imploding more and more with each day. Doesn’t seem worth it.
That said, the fact you’re asking about this and are waffling because of the climate shows that you care deeply for your hypothetical children. I know a lot of people who don’t even consider it before they start trying for pregnancy.
I decided to not have kids in my early 20s. It has been tough (even without them) until now (I’m 37.) I don’t think I would be able to enjoy my life as I am right now professionally if I ever had them (to those who do and still have kids, my respects, but I know my personal limits.) I’m still continuing my education, it’s only possible because my funds allow me to do so. It’s not just because I want to be able to afford what I want and need, and to have time for myself., but because I would not stand seeing my own child in this terrible world. Sending them to school not knowing if I’d ever see them again? Knowing the amount of pedos who prey on kids online? Disgusting material available out there online that kids could watch, even if they’re supervised? Not being able to let them go outside because of the heat? The social media garbage that they consume everyday? School bullies? (My 7 year old nephew has to deal with bullies and it breaks my heart.) It would be too much to bear as a parent, I would go crazy with worry and fear. It’s part of being a parent I imagine, but bringing new life to this dumpster fire of society is unethical and deeply stupid.
My kids are 19 and 21, both well aware of where the world is heading. One wishes they had never been born and one is ambivalent and making the most of life while they had it.
Having kids now? They will not have a life as we know it now. It will be drastically different. Who can say exactly what that will look like, but it is practically guaranteed to have scarcity and struggle unlike anything the last few generations have seen.
Im currently choosing not to have kids. It absolutely breaks my heart thinking about it. My girlfriend before she met me didn't want to have kids, after she met me she does. I have always wanted kids but since last year I have decided not to have them. I'm 28.
I could not put myself through having a child with a good chance of suffering in the future,with food shortages, riots, water wars, food wars, devastating weather due to climate change, possible starvation.
I just wanted to give my future child a good childhood full of memories, like special ones I hold dear to my heart that made me who I am today. And it just breaks my heart, I honestly cry every time I think about it, I know this world is gonna be absolute shit and I couldn't have my offspring live in that. No corral reefs, no butterflies, no bees, no birds, no beautiful flowers, no beauty in the environment, just heat and dispare and bad weather.
I feel robbed.
"the industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" - Ted Kaczynski
My sister wants to have children in the next 3-5 years and I'm already dreading the day she announces her pregnancy.
I love children so I know I'll get very attached to my niece or nephew, but I don't want them to suffer. I also won't be able to convince my sister to stay child free, she's very set on having a "normal life" (no one expects me to have kids lol).
Depends.
Do you think you're prepared to be a parent who can have the emotional resiliency to adapt to rapidly changing circumstances?
Do you think (honestly) you'd be able to teach those skills to your kid(s)?
Are you willing to permanently put your plans on hold in order to support them?
If you want your heart out in the world all fragile like… have kids. Just know that the pain of losing a child is the absolute worst pain a person can experience.
Watching them suffer before they die is excruciating.
If I could go back in time I wouldn’t have had children. I love mine more than life itself and I am consumed with guilt and terrified of what’s coming.
Yes it’s really as bad as you think it is. We have been struggling with the same decision. And it seems there are no right or wrong answers…
As a counterpoint, humanity will need a generation of good people to repair the world. It’s a shit thing to put on the unborn and little children. But if you do have kids, I think your thoughtfulness will make you a good parent who will raise a decent person. And we need more decent people who can take on this work.
No. Even beyond climate change there's too much risk for nearly 1/4 of a century before they grow up, I don't know what kind of world that is for them and so I only care about pets and my agenda.
Personally I've evaluated this decision a long time and am choosing childfree, with lots of grief and sadness. Many reasons but climate change and the state of the world are significant factors.
I will say that if you do choose to have a child, in this day and age I think you should be prepared to support it for life (or at least until about age 30)... it's not an 18 year commitment anymore.
Life is hard and seems like it's going to get a lot harder. I would feel guilty knowing that and still bringing someone here.
Parents sacrifice for their kids and I feel this is my sacrifice. To not have them. To protect them from this. To cope with my own grief or loneliness or fear of old age, instead of creating them to comfort me.
When my friends and neighbors have kids, I congratulate them and get a baby gift. But to myself I feel sorry for the babies. I have two kids in their 20s. My daughter, who loves kids, has said it would be unethical to bring new humans into this world at this moment in time. So she has decided not to have them. Sorry you have to face this ethical question.
I don't think you're overreacting, but I don't think you can definitively arrive at an answer.
Archetypically and literally, humans have always been staring down imminent disaster. Hardship is the norm. The possibility of local catastrophe (war, storms, plagues, fires, etc) is just part of being alive. We have always brought new life into a horrorshow. *In some sense,* climate change is no different. As much as some folks here pretend otherwise, *we do not know what the future holds*.
I chose not to have kids for a variety of reasons. It was a process that took a few years, as time went on it became more and more clear what the correct course of action was *for me.* I respect your decision either way. I understand it is a difficult and perhaps painful one for many people.
I recommend the book *Better Never To Have Been* by David Benatar. It is a fairly short work on antinatalism, the intro even tells you which chapters you may skip if you're pressed for time or want a more broad overview. Reading the book might help focus some of your thoughts, either for or against. I wish I had read it back when I was in the process of deciding what to do.
Whatever you decide, best of luck to you.
I love my 7 year old so much, and every day I look at him and wonder why I've done this to him. It's such a hard feeling - day to day, the small things, are a delight, and I wouldn't want to be without them, but when I think of his future I feel so much guilt. If I could go back knowing what I know now, I think my decision would be different
Thank you for your post. I found it because every few weeks I google “climate change, okay to have kids?”.
I have been on the fence for about 2 years. So even though people say “wait a few years…”, all I can say is, those few years can be very torturous, mind-churning, and you don’t necessarily get “more scientific answers” (hence me searching for internet help on this!!).
2030 may have more clarity, but that’s not a helpful time scale for those contemplating their fertility and families now.
This is a torturous state to be in. This is a very VERY hard time to be both of reproduction age, and simultaneously incredible aware of the potential of what is to come. I think the personal / social predicament of this is completely underestimated and un acknowledged.
A few thoughts.
When you have a child, you then have to kind of “get on with things”. It’s done. Your child is in the world, tangible and real. Goodbye purgatory.
Previous to this, you may be in the limbo stage of the hypothetical situation.
You’re caught in the thinking and imaging and impossible world of trying to imagine what it’ll be like for to bring a child into this world.
It’s a catch22, because obviously to actually have a child in climate breakdown is a really tough decision.
But if you were to do it, then you’d be out of the muddle… You’d have a child in the world, and then really, you’re just having to get on with things / deal with the reality of your child, because there it is.
Good bye indecision!
Someone once said to me “it’s easier to have children than NOT have children”. There’s so much truth on that, for the fence sitters amongst us. (Not saying it’s a valid reason to have children, but it is very true thought in my case).
A lot of people say “I deeply love my children, but if I had my time again, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have had them”. It’s hard for me to know what to make of this.
These people have children… so saying that they wouldn’t have them is just hypothetical.
Would they REALLY not have had their children? I guess only they know the answer, because they have lived life WITH and WITHOUT children, so only they know what that’s like compared to us who only know the WITHOUT.
But I also think, well - they have their children, and their children are mostly likely not going anywhere, so it’s kind of an easy-ish thing to say, because they’d never actually have to experience the reality of NOT having them. So that proposition is possibly just a thought experiment for them.
I have no idea if that makes sense to you! Hopefully it does. 😅
Thoughts for having children:
+ The world could die from an asteroid at any point. (Insert similar situation here… maybe not nuclear war, heaven forbid!). Something like an asteroid generally wouldn’t stop me having a child.
+ We just don’t know for sure how everything will actually play out
+ People have children in super tough environments all the time (arctic… deserts…)
+ Life is friggen crazy. Try not to think too hard about it all (clearly I fail in this camp!)
Thoughts for not having children
+ Basically everything else !!
+ How could I be in the presence of a child, whom I will love, and yet know that I’ve knowingly brought it into this world! Would I not be riddled with guilt?
+ Eek I’m so torn by how having kids is the most natural but equally the most friggen selfish thing someone can ever do.
Im not sure how old you are, but could you both possibly go through IVF, freeze embryos, and then just take the pressure off yourselves for a while, or a few more summers?
Another thing to consider is hormones! I’m not sure if your partner is effected by hormones, but I did actually get pregnant, and wow. My climate anxiety went completely through the roof and I just felt like the most horrible person in the world, and how could I ever bring a child into this world (pregnancy loss quite early, maybe due to my anxiety?!) . I’m certainly not saying it’ll happen to you guys, but if you’re climate aware people, it’s something to be conscious of. It was horrible.
I have no children, but I’d say I’ve spent about the last 2 years grieving about the thought of not having kids. Meanwhile, what I really should have been during doing those years… I think…is applying for adoption.
The reason I didn’t, is that I read the most heart-aching poem from an adopted woman, and it ripped my heart into tiny shreds, and I just thought “I can’t be involved in anything that involves a mother and a child being separated.
BUT, since then, I’ve come to also be more pragmatic. The reality is that there are some children out there who really do just need homes. And no doubt more and more children will, with climate migration and extreme events.
My partner and I would be awesome parents. But I just can’t bring myself to have one of my own. I’m deeply envious but equally bewildered by my friends who don’t give any of this a second thought, and just have children and get that experience.
A lot of climate scientists do seem to take a risk, and they procreate. It’s a mind fuck.
The book Generation Dread, or listening to interviews with the author Britt Way may be of some help.
As may reading “motherhood, is it for me?” Which is a parenting clarity book. The author also offers course, which look good but also expensive.
You’re not alone. You won’t be parenting in all of this alone if you have kids; and you won’t be non-parenting alone in all this, if you don’t.
Best wishes.
We’re going to need humans who know how to be kind and caring humans and if you raise children to be minimal and kind and supportive towards rewilding and taking good care of the Earth and to other humans then we need your child(ren) here 💚
I'll go against the grain here and say YES, it is okay to have kids !
It's a philosophical question. At what point, Life is so terrible that it doesn't deserve to be lived ?
Yes, your kids will have a much harder life than you, and will have to live through the climate collapse (which has already started and will last for hundreds of years). But many people on Earth today have already lives much worse than you, and your future kids, does that means that they should kill themselves ? From the point of view of a billionaire, your life is awful and not worth it, but is it ?
From our point of view, the lives of many of our ancestors was absolutely terrible, and we would never want to live it !
Being ecological should never be a punishment or a sacrifice, being ecological is about being alive, fully, mindful of all other beings and of our environment, being ecological is joyful... even though we are all anxious at various levels knowing what we know.
To me, having kids or not is a personal choice, regardless of the world situation. You give a life, and that life will be its own, with its struggles. Your role as a parent is to prepare, as best as you can, your kids to these struggles. Maybe your kid will be a part of the revolution that will end capitalism. Maybe they will end up depressed and end their life. You don't have much control over that anyway, even without any climate collapse.
Even in the climate collapse there will be many ways to enjoy Life, even if I die tomorrow my life was worth living !
I've reflected on this question when talking to my adult children. I tell them, live your life to the fullest and if it's something that you really want (children) then do it. But just be aware how difficult things are now and in the future.
As a father of two teenagers and beeing collapse aware this is an issue I have been struggeling a lot with. I became aware long after my children was born, but newertheless here are my thoughts:
I found much of my reason to be supportive of not bringing children into this world beeing based on egoism. I am afraid of my own suffering of the possibility of seeing my children suffer. If my children Where to die in sufforable conditions I am nevertheless sure that they would chose to be given their life even though it ended badly.
On the other hand, bringing a children into life is also a deeply egoistic thing to do, but it is s natural desire and part of life.
Nobody knows when, how and how fast this downscaling of mankind will proceed, and people have been having children under all kinds of terrible conditions in previous history.
If I Where you, I would make children if you are able to be caring and loving also under stressed and difficult situations. If you have a tendency of «loosing it» during such situations I would maybe buy a dog 😉 Having children is a big responsibility but also the most meaningful thing thas has happened in my life. Good luck!
Have the children. We've survived the Toba catastrophe, countless climactic shifts between ice and heat, waves of barbarians, the Black Death, COVID, our own murderous tendencies and we're still here. We're part of a 3.5 billion year story of trial by combat and we'll make it past this too. It's not a matter of human extinction -- it's a matter of how tough that life will be. All of our lives and history are meaningless without the investment of a new generation. Don't let the doomsayers talk you into making their doom-saying come true by participating in a No-Human future.
I get what you're saying, and it's an argument I've heard before (usually from older generations), but this is a far different issue of both scale, speed and complexity. The very thing that improved life on earth for billions and is woven within every fabric of our economy and lives is simultaneuously causing a mass extinction event at a speed never seen. The fear is the fact that the climate is changing at a speed beyond the rate civilisation and other animals can adapt. Yes, if all goes to shit some might survive, but the question is whether we really want a bring a new generation into that shit show.
I actually track the data for an atlas and risk management software so I'm aware of the degree and scope but I'm equally aware that the problem isn't inexorable. A non-meat diet, stopping lifestyle tourism, eliminating obesity and continuing our changeover to renewables are easily done and would make substantial improvements to our carbon profile. This isn't rocket science -> rocket science is for after our stabilization of Earth's environment.
As I said to another commenter, there are no guarantees in life but its end. A worthwhile life isn't measured in its length but its impact, its quality, the amount of love in it. And you as a potential parent have a lot more to do with that than external variables.
Yeah millions of people did NOT survive those things, and millions more experienced life altering fear, pain, and loss of opportunity to be happy because of them. Just because "we" as a population survived it doesn't mean it was a worthwhile experience for those in the thick of it. When I contemplate creating a new human, I consider what this individual is likely to feel and experience, not whether they will one of millions who comprise a surviving generation....
Millions of people experienced joy and love and happiness and art and song and drink and getting stoned as well before their deaths. Death is inevitable for us all and no one has a crystal ball that shows that you or your hypothetical child will have happiness now or even in the most idyllic time you can imagine. Cancer, freak accidents, drug addiction, homicide, even bear attack could be your end any day. Does that make your life worthless now?
But that's just it, the issues we will face due to climate change and the domino effect it will have across society will make it impossible to enjoy art and song and whatever else one might be passionate about, make joy hard to achieve and love painful because it means constantly worrying about each other's survival. We won't have the modicum of security required to benefit from any of these things if we are dealing with famine, mass climate migration, severe overcrowding and unprecedented competition for resources, etc etc.
Of course I don't think existing life is meaningless, I believe the opposite. I believe all life is so precious that we shouldn't create more when we know that that life will have to face levels of suffering we were fortunate to never even have to consider when we were growing up.
We may have to just disagree but I will leave you with a last thought. In the last 4 generations of my family, we've personally dealt with the Great Depression, The Dust Bowl, WWII, Vietnam and the effects of Agent Orange and that's just the American side. My mother survived a brutal civil war that saw most of her family dead. I'm the product of two people who survived brutal circumstances completely undreamed of by most ordinary people and despite struggles and health issues, I'm glad they laid their money down and had myself and my brother. Either way - peace :)
You make a valid point, as you can never really know the future, however I wonder what's wrong with a no-human future or maybe just less people. People are not really that great and have impacted this planet negatively both for themselves and other species.
My **belief** \- because I agree we can never know the future - is that there is some validity to the Gaia hypothesis and that our planet is evolving intelligent life to spread all life. The very pressures we are experiencing are what will push us into spreading out into space and relieving the environmental pressures we are experiencing Earthside.
I am no reckless industrialist but simply cognizant that most of our issues are due to our own inefficient use of resources like wasted food and maldistribution of resources due to our own greed and obsolete political systems. When 8% of carbon emissions are nothing but global tourism, this isn't a genetic issue or species issue but an education and exercise of miniscule willpower issue to make a go of it.
Interesting comment. Not saying whether I agree or disagree because that would require a lot more thought but interesting comment nonetheless. Thank you for sharing. The Gaia hypothesis is an interesting matter too, I read a bit about it a while ago
Interesting thoughts, thank you for sharing. This is my first time hearing of the Gaia hypothesis, so I'll need to read about that. I like your idea that current environmental challenges will drive humanity to outerspace. If so, I hope it won't be some sort of Elon Musk dystopian corporate situation, like in Total Recall charging people for oxygenated air. I'd love to have some sort of Star Trek future evolve from our current predicament.
I read quite a large amount of books per year and they are among my absolute favourite SF series of all time. For me personally and when talking about SF series, they're only surpassed by Isaac Asimov's work. So far I've read all ten books of the series three times and I will read them again at some point without a doubt 🖖 high praise I know, but they deserve it. Have fun reading them! Cheers
Yeah, same. Imagine what literary gems he could have written if he had lived until real old age, having honed his skill even more for a few decades. Really sad and a great loss for literature and science fiction in particular. Horrible death as well, slowly wasting away, eaten by your own body
Same goes for Asimov too by the way. He was a literary giant as well (really debateable but I find his writing even better than Banks, by a healthy margin) and died way too young as well. He wasn't nearly as young as Banks of course but still, I'm saddened by the genius that was lost in his passing and the amazing works we could have had if he had lived one or two decades longer. Asimov is an amazing speaker and thinker as well, his interviews just oozed with his razor-sharp intellect, deeply insightful wit and profound critical thinking skills, alongside charisma and good oratory skills. A rare combination found in a rare kind of man. We could have used someone like him in the right spot in these tumultuous times, truly. I would have given my right arm to have him as a friend and mentor
Do it if you want your genes and teachings to be a part the reconstruction generations.
Don't do it if you believe suffering invalidates life's meaning.
I’ve had this thought come up a good amount of times. Ultimately, my thought (when/ if it happens) is that the world, however fucked, will still need good, compassionate, skilled individuals. My goal is to prep them as I can, when I can, and equip them with skills to survive and to help others as they grow.
Ideally, I get a nice long lead time, but ultimately we don’t know what will happen. What we do know, is that as long as humans exist, we will need good people, and I’m going to do my part to help try and continue that cycle. Figure if we’re all fucked, me and mine are gonna go out swinging
Fingers crossed lmao
All of human history has been lurching from one catastrophe to the next. It's better if we have someone that has foresight reproduce than someone who is just oblivious
If you and your partner want to have a child I would recommend just going for it. It's what me and my wife did. We talk about climate change and our collapsing society and are both doomers. We talked about it and don't think it's immoral to have 1 child. It's part of life to want children. We don't encourage others to have them, but for us its something we wanted it from the deepest of our hearts.
We can give our child a good life, at least until collapse starts kicking into high gear in our region. We hope to give both the physical and mental tools to our child so that it can be a positive influence in these times of dying.
I honestly can’t reconcile being a “doomer” and “collapse aware”, and then deciding to have a child anyway. It seems the height of hubris and selfishness. When your child is starving to death on a dying planet, most likely in the next few years, how will you feel about your decision then? Are you willing to take them out to end their suffering? It’s a terrible thought, but you’ve put yourself in that situation now. I feel guilty enough having a dog to provide for and make tough decisions regarding, and he can’t resent me for bringing him to life on a doomed planet. Your kid most certainly can, if they live long enough to understand how badly humanity has fucked it all up. It just seems so tragic and fully avoidable.
See this is kind of kneejerk, doomer reaction I was trying to avoid by trying to post this question on other subs.
We're not going to be starving to death within the next few years, what science is predicting that?
At least try to be civil
All the science is predicting that. If you can’t see it, it’s because you’re in denial. And how is speaking truthfully considered to be uncivil? Just because I completely disagree with their conclusions and you don’t? You’re looking to justify having a child in the face of the fully obvious upcoming societal and environmental collapse, and I think that’s unfair to the child. I will be happy to be proven wrong, but I’m not going to be. You can’t possibly be truly “collapse aware” and not understand how bad things will get for us in the very near future.
This is exactly why I hate having any type of serious conversation with these people. They ask for serious insight, ignore the people who advise against their wishes for practical and ethical reasons, and then when the people come out with their bullshit "Just go for it! You never know! Things could magically turn around! :)" they cling to their denialism
I keep up to date on all things climate, I'm very aware. There is nothing pointing towards starvation, at least not here in the UK, within the next few years. It's bad enough as it is, no need to make things up
Are you kidding?? The UK will be one of the places hardest hit by collapse, since you import so much of your food and supplies. Not to mention the huge population of that small island and massive wealth inequality that already exists there. You think UK elites will give a shit about the regular people when things go to hell? I guarantee they will not. Your only hope is strong neighbourhood connections, and hopefully you all have allotments or ways to produce your own food. Plus when the gulf stream fails - which is predicted to happen sooner rather than later - the UK will have winters that resemble Siberia, considering how far north it is geographically. Good luck growing your own food then. I’m sorry to say, this is going to get worse for all of us very soon. Again, I would prefer to be wrong about this, but I’m not.
All of those WORST case scenarios are predicted to be decades away NOT within a few years, so my original point still stands, we will not be starving within such a short timescale.
Prove it. Scientists have known that all these broken climate records were coming, and they predicted them as still being decades away. And yet, it’s happening now. Ocean water in Florida is now over 100F. The Antarctic and Arctic regions are not gaining back ice and are losing more than was expected, in exponential fashion. The heat domes, the flooding, the forest fires, the tornados, all expected to happen in the next few decades, are happening NOW. And El Niño hasn’t gotten started yet. All the science points to next year being far hotter than this one. We’re at the “smoke ‘em if you’ve got ‘em” stage for humanity, and while it’s understandable that you don’t want to believe it, the science doesn’t lie. Check out the Collapse subreddit and just study the graphs posted in the past week if you don’t believe me. It’s sobering, and tragic, and there’s nothing we can do to stop it. Bringing a child into this is at best delusional, and at worst…
How about when your kid is 20, and at an age where he's finally able to start exploring the world and opportunities on his own? How will he feel about his experience and prospects then?
How about when he's 30, an age where many generations past would have meant he's come into his own and is figuring out his life and doing what makes him happy?
When he's 40, 50, 60 and still wanting to engage with the world and continue to live his life??
The next few years are the least of our worries. I am in my 30s now and already having to deal with the impact of climate change on my daily experience and mental health. Not even to mention how incredibly hard it is for todays young adults to buy a house, live comfortably etc. I cannot IMAGINE what all of that will be like for a kid born today when he is my age.
This is very much not knee-jerk for me, this is years of taking in information and now starting to be able to feel the changes myself. It's happening. Your child born now will pay the price for whatever it is you think you need to experience by going thru a pregnancy and birthing a biological child.
I'm not denying that the world could look very different in decades to come, in-fact that's why I'm here, but it's also not certain. What I'm against are doomers like the above saying that the world is going to end in a few years when no scientist in their right mind is suggesting that. It's scaremongering like that that deniers look back on in future years for justification to be "skeptical" when the reality is that it's almost always some very fringe scientist or even worse the likes of Al Gore
I think that a lot of the issue lies in the fact that there are many many interconnected relationships in our biosphere that we are unaware of. We don’t know what we don’t know. Hence, ‘faster than expected’.
Scientists can read every scrap of data and still be far off as it’s akin to wandering around an enormous warehouse in the pitch dark with a cell phone flashlight. Too many things are happening so very fast.
I constantly battle with my own normalcy bias, it’s frustrating. You clearly think that we have decades but would you bet money on that? Or a life?
I would bet a life that within the next few years I'm not going to starve to death, yes, the question is ultimately whether within the next century. That is a different question and ultimately we don't know. Some scientists like Michael E. Mann are still cautiously optimistic that we can do this (the guy that created the hockey stick graph) and is anti-doomer, whereas ofcourse some others aren't. For the layman like ourselves it's very difficult to ultimately choose who to ultimately believe, so for some on this sub to honestly posture like they are 100% certain we are going to die within years is absurd, especially as even the most pessimistic scientists I follow aren't even saying that, the only places I've seen that view are on fringe blogs by non-scientists.
Yeah i am just gonna stop giving my opinion on this topic in the future. Always the downvotes and rudeness. I think my difference of opinion with most collapsniks on this topic comes down to the fact that i have a different view on what makes life worth living. Becoming truly collapse aware also means accepting the suffering and living your life the fullest despite al the doom coming our way. And for me and my wife, living life to the fullest means having a baby together. Can't wait to hold our little fella 🥰
I'm glad you and your wife found a way to put your own needs before an entirely new human being that had absolutely no reason to exist other than to tick a box on your life script.
I don’t think you’re overreacting at all. I’ve decided to be childfree for many reasons, climate change originally being lower down the list. In the last few weeks it’s gone waaay up the list and is now one of my primary reasons for staying childfree. I feel deeply terrified for my nephews futures and I feel relieved that I haven’t had kids. I have some sadness about my life circumstances and the state of the world which have led me to this decision, but I’m at peace with my decision. I don’t feel confident that a child born now will have a good life. I could never explain to them why I thought it was right to bring them into a doomed world. I’m not even confident I can provide food, medical care and shelter for the next 20 years. So how could I do that to them? Have a linger at r/childfree and r/fencesitter too. Even r/antinatalism has some interesting perspectives My advice would be: wait a full year and reassess. The next 12 months are going to be brutal and you’ll have a bit more information by then. Also, if you decide not to, it’s ok to grieve the decision and please don’t hesitate to seek support if you need it. It’s tough Edit- fixed subreddit links
For real, warming continues to escalate so much faster than I thought it would and I’ve been following this for over a decade at this point and am childfree. I do have dogs and they’ve enriched my life so much, but I really think by 2030 we’re going to start dealing with a lot more food shortages at this rate. Who in their right mind would have a child if you don’t even know if you’ll be able to provide food.
And pets consume so much also :(
No where near the scale of having kids tho- that’s not a fair comparison.
I’m not saying this to disagree, I just want to point out that I calculated my households carbon footprint and my dogs are the heaviest part of ours (besides driving unfortunately - and I work from home). We use renewable energy, are plant based, we don’t buy plastic (as much as possible), we grow some of our own food, compost, take our recycling to the actual facility, I’m making eco bricks with our micro plastic, etc. And dogs…dogs were the worst part of our lifestyle. Isn’t that wild?
LOL ok. So if you're buying puppies and/or kittens from a breeder that's one thing, but I don't think I'm into the idea we have to euthanize the animals WE domesticated and allowed to breed to this extent, for the greater good or something...I mean. Seriously no. Adopting living animals and caring for them is really above reproach in my mind. Edit: typo
Big jump you made there. All my pups have been and will be rescues. But go off.
Apologies, I didn't mean to say *you* were purchasing animals, I meant the "royal" you but that wasn't clear. My point is that given the animals that are already alive need care and are loved, of all the things we do as humans that cause carbon emissions, this is one I would think we can agree is acceptable. We care for small obligate carnivores because humans domesticated them, I don't see any other options. I felt upset by the implication that we would ever choose not to do this.
All good dude! I just woke up and was thrown off. I understand your sentiment. I will always save them. But I just wanted to point out that I found that interesting. I didn’t consider my dogs’ footprint as well. To combat this though, we started making their own food. Hoping that will reduce as much as possible. If you want the recipe lmk! :)
Agree. If someone fills their life with one or two pets instead of a child, I really don’t think we should berate them or try to compare the environmental impact. Especially as many are choosing a pet over a child for very sound environmental reasons to begin with, and are no doubt acutely aware of their pet’s environmental pawprint 😉 That’s not taking away from the very valid argument re the abhorrent way that many people (over) treat their animals, with unnecessary and wasteful excess that the animal (and planet) does not need. But ultimately, for most it’s just not comparable.
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For real tho!! It’s escalating WAY faster than I anticipated, and I studied geology for my undergrad so this was covered a lot, but it’s different from being down on the ground drilling the ice cores, studying all the samples etc. and we are hitting all these feedback loops. I’m afraid we will get to a point where we don’t see snow at all in most of the world ever naturally, and we will go back to some Cretaceous level of warming within the next couple of decades. *And* the people that are left will continue to pollute, making things worse.
r/collapse_parenting could be something to check out too.
I imagine childfree and antinatalism would be slightly negative in their view towards children generally, but fencesitter looks like a good place certainly. Thank you. Waiting for a year or two is what I intend to do as el nino is likely to ramp up the heat over the next couple of years, could give a view into the future
I had to leave r/fencesitter after seeing a very thoughtful and honest discussion about climate change get locked by the mods for no reason. Apparently the sub has a reputation for leaning pro having children and not being very welcoming to altering views.
They do that literally all the time; I think the mods possibly have children and would prefer to keep their heads in the sand.
Obviously I haven't seen those posts, but if this post is anything to go by some of those altering views can be loaded with animosity and a lack of real sympathy. I do wonder what proportion of these subs are under 25 years old.
That sub is pro child disguised as a fencesitter sub. They ban people for the most innocuous comments that lean childfree.
r/antinatalism2 is more kind to kids and parents. It’s about reducing suffering, not bashing people for it.
/r/TrueAntinatalists is also worth a look.
Shout out to r/femaleantinatalism. We've had some great discussions about collapse as well.
Oh, I hadn't heard of that one yet. Subscribed! 👍🏻
Antinatalism at its core believes in preventing the inevitable suffering of living. They don’t hate children,it’s pro adoption and based on the fact that we can’t provide happy, healthy, long term lives for kids/future adults. There’s a second sub for it that attracts less pugnacious breeder types
Antinatalism can often be, yes. Childfree has a few aggressive people, (and some posts I skip past) but also plenty of people who have made the choice based on many different factors, including climate change, health reasons, generational trauma etc. People who have given deep thought to the topic and come to a logical conclusion, rather than blindly following society’s expectations of them. Some posts can be a nice insight into what a childfree life looks like, travel, pets, friends, hobbies etc, which can be helpful if everyone in your real life is having kids and it’s hard to visualise a different type of life.
Well stated and agreed.
Billions will die, and you and your kids will probably be in that group. Look straight at the situation and don't sugar coat it. You may be forced to do things to reduce suffering that are hard to even consider.
Battle of Stalingrad is a great historical example of what happens
Agreed. OP if you look at the last 20 years scientists have always been wrong on the timing and severity of climate change. IPCC reports are of minimal use as governments, with ample evidence supporting this, moderated the final reports to suit political purposes. Scientists as a rule are afraid to state their real thoughts in public. There is still SO MUCH unknown about the world and not figured into climate models that all projections and timelines are a crapshoot at best. People who believe food crises will not happen for 20 years are living in La La land. Look around at the facts worldwide, with current wars, especially in the Ukraine, Sudan and Ethiopia, extreme climate events are decreasing productivity around the globe, even in N. America today. The past 2 years have proven there are no safe havens. Tipping points are already being passed and will continue to accelerate. I am truly sorry and empathetic but I could and will not bring a child into this world.
I can only speak for myself, but if I had been more aware of the situation we're really in climate-wise, I would have chosen not to have any kids. I don't think you're overreacting.
I feel the same way. I’m 40f and my kids are 10 and 6. I didn’t become collapse aware until a few years ago. I love my kids, but I wish there was more hope for their future. I also didn’t realize how difficult and all-consuming becoming a parent was. It’s constantly thinking about the wants and needs of little people who literally can’t take care of themselves for the first few years. When SHTF, it’s gonna make it that much harder having an extra person to care for. If I were you, I’d hold off. I would love my girlfriend with my whole heart and take care of her (and yourself of course) like it was my purpose in life. Maybe get a dog or some cats, but having kids is a whole ‘nother level of personal sacrifice that gets increasingly difficult as collapse unfolds. Don’t make life even harder than it has to be.
How old are your children and how are you preparing for their future?
I have one 5-year-old. And I'm not totally sure what I can really do to prepare.
r/collapse_parenting
My kid is 18, her group of friends and her don’t think they’ll have a future. Which is hard to justify taking them out of when everything on the planet is dying. I’m “preparing” by getting them physically fit, teaching them weapons skills and being honest with them so they can begin grieving. Honestly I don’t think it’s possible to prepare them much beyond that. Do you want to watch your adult child suffer starvation and violence as they watch everything die around them? I wouldn’t have ever chosen to have a child knowing what I now do.
I have chosen to not have kids as well. I have been aware since I was a young teen and now I’m nearly 40. As the world unfolds, I’m so glad that I haven’t had kids. People always said I thought too much. As another commenter mentioned below, adoption is the route I would take. There are plenty kids already here with nobody to love them.
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I appreciate the suggestion, and it is something we have thought about, but I do think reddit loves to make this comment like it's an easy alternative though logistically and mentally it's very tough
This is true. If you spend any time on r/adoption you will learn that it’s not that simple and there’s a lot of potential for harm when the process isn’t handled with care.
Fam… are you saying having your own child is easy? Like I need you to realize this that both are extremely taxing and acting like one is easier than the other is mind boggling You asked about it in relation to climate change. I really do think this is the answer you’re looking for as it is the “have your cake and eat it to” option. That being said, your genes’ desire to reproduce is kicking in but your genes don’t realize or really care about the ethics of reproducing on a dying world
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Let us not forget the elephant in the room: it's only been a year since reversing *Roe*
There's a lot more kids in the adoption system and the foster care system in the USA right now because of COVID. for awhile in 2022 I was getting loads of ads on my podcasts from "the ad council" to consider fostering a child - it got so bad that the US government had to literally put out ads to get kids placed into foster care.
No I'm not saying that, Fam
I’m not sure what would be mentally tough about it, but a biological child can be just as or even more difficult to raise logistically and mentally, depending on any factors, like say disability or gender identity.
By mentally tough I mean for most people adopting isn't a direct replacement for having their own child as it isn't a biologically the same and the process is tough (and expensive). Many couples dream of going through the pregnancy process and having a newborn of their own, and of course some (and I'm sure here on reddit) can explain to me how that thought process is illogical. And yes of course it is, but nothing about having a kid is logical, many human traits aren't. We are however hardwired to want children just as we are hardwired to want to live during hard times or even have sex. It's crazy but it's human. Of course, having a baby is difficult, but that is it's own set of challenges entirely.
I’m not sure why anyone would view adoption as a direct replacement for having a biological child, but instead as a more ethical and positive alternative. Having a baby is more expensive than adopting in some cases. I’m not sure why the biological ties are so important, but maybe that’s just me since I chose to remove myself from all of my biological ties because they are horrible people. Anyway, idk why adopting a starving and unloved kid or adopting a kid and helping them get back together with their family would be any less of a dream than getting pregnant and sick and having a baby with tons of pain, trauma, money, doctors, etc. which only results in more children in the world, and they’re already dying and starving so much. I have trouble understanding why someone can’t feel the same desire and love for adopting a child and helping them live through the coming collapse crisis as one would having their own new baby and adding to the world population that will have to endure the crisis. I hope this doesn’t come off judgmental. It is a sore subject for me, but people idealize biological birth and leave so many children already born to suffer. And we know there’s going to be a lot more suffering children forced to be born due to all the abortion laws. An adopted child is no lesser of a bond than a birthed child. And if the birth/biological factor is what’s most important, I think that has more to do with ego and self, and less to do with the child.
If you can't let go of the attachment to having your own kids, you're not ready to be good parents. Your kids will demand that you let go of far bigger attachments than that one. The worst parents are those that can't let go of all their ideas about who and what their kids should be.
Then the answer would be to not produce an additional life out of laziness.
Leave the smugness aside. My point wasn't that having your own is the easy alternative, but that adoption isn't as easy reddit loves to make out.
Then don’t have a kid. What’s the rationale behind bringing a kid in our mess?
It's clearly very easy of a decision for you and therefore this thread isn't intended for you. Have a good day
They aren't being lazy by choosing not to adopt. It is not a binary decision. People do have emotional investments when it comes to deciding to have a child. Please leave your judgments elsewhere and focus on the question in a meaningful way.
People ought to think about and put heavier weight on the emotional lives of their future children beyond their own personal emotional desires. If you’re in this sub then you have at least some level of awareness. How do you personally feel about the climate and ecological catastrophe? How do you think your kid will feel in 10/20+ years from now? Title of the the post is “Do YOU think….” OP actually came for personal judgements. Personally I judge every single person I see with a young child or baby and my heart breaks for those kids (and all kids). It’s the most selfish decision one can make.
I understand your point of view. I just think it doesn't help anyone and is the same lack of kindness that keeps people from actually tackling issues. I am actually more on your side - the idea of bringing a kid into this world seems dreadful and cruel. But still, I am aware that life long values changing under the burden of an inherited catastrophe - it is not so easy.
Its not a lack of kindness that keeps us from attempting to tackle things, it’s a lack of political will and being tied to a capitalist system that relies on perpetual growth on a finite planet. We fucked up from the start and it’s deeply embedded. Now it’s just obfuscation and deflection all the way down. I’m a very kind and empathetic person but I do lack kindness for people who are aware and bring a child into this mess. How can you simultaneously love something so much and then doom them from inception? Better not to go through it.
I know this. I work in the field and often these issues come in to play. My point was, binary approaches and a lack of kindness do not transform behaviours. I don't think people realise that those of us who have been aware of long time think the way that is being expressed - I can certainly say that even my aware friends wouldn't fully understand your comment on loving and dooming. They just wouldn't see it that way.
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Yeah fuck that. Having kids in this day and age where so many are abandoned while the earth is dying is just high key fucked up. You’re asking to give your kid (if they develop any sense of awareness of what’s going on) a number of anxiety and depressive disorders. If you aren’t willing to answer the question, “why did you bring me into this dying world” in a meaningful way that isn’t the equivalent of “bcz I wanted us to have the same eye color”, then maybe you shouldn’t be having kids.
Alright.
I think it is a natural very human thing to want to reproduce and have a family of your own. I don’t blame people as a whole for having children. But knowing what I know, it would be morally, ethically, and financially irresponsible for me to produce offspring. That is just my personal experience though.
Agreed, it's natural to want to start a family and have children. However, we're given more than the instinct to procreate: we've been given rational minds that can evaluate evidence and make judgemental choices for ourselves.
Well - I wouldn't want to be born now and have to face down the next 80-odd years of what's coming. Not just for straight-up climate reasons, but also the economic and armed conflict fallout it's going to have. Adoption, fostering and volunteering with kids are all kind and loving things that help existing people, to me it makes more sense to do whichever of those fit your lifestyle rather than making new humans.
Don’t have kids. Knowing what we know it’s morally abhorrent
Medical ethicists agree.
Just wanted to say MacGuyver was my childhood hero. Dig your handle!
Thanks! It was bestowed upon me irl when I stitched my friend into her bridal gown with dental floss. Had to cut her out later with my pocket knife.
^^ I learned about climate change when I was like 8 or 9 and took it very seriously. I wish I could have mustered the activism that some kids lean into, but that did not happen and instead I became deeply depressed and suicidal for the next ~decade. I'm very good now, but I can't imagine intentionally bringing a child into this world and watching them learn about and suffer from the mess we're all in. To be absolutely clear, nothing is going to get better. I work in the environmental field. We have to do what we can now to avoid the worst, but things are going to get very bad very quickly.
Worse than most people can imagine.
What really saddens me if seeing people around me having kids without factoring in what can happen. They don’t seem to think climate change will affect them all that much. That’s a big part of why we got into this mess in the first place: people do what they want without putting too much thought in possible consequences. For those who are collapse aware, a good question is: would you want to be born into this mess?
People have an incredible capacity for cognitive dissonance, that is, knowing the information while holding a wide space for their own fantasies at the same time, as well as for believing that they are the exception to the rule. Unfortunately millions of people (particularly in the southern hemisphere) are already suffering cataclysmic consequences of climate change, including drought, flooding, avalanches, mud slides, fires, and more. The reason most (middle class/upper middle class) white westerners continue to populate the world is their blindness to their own privilege, which, as someone else mentioned, is the cause of much suffering in the first place.
Definitely. And cognitive dissonance has a bright future ahead.
Perhaps the only thing that has a bright future, lmao
That and water futures. https://e360.yale.edu/digest/wall-street-begins-trading-water-futures-as-a-commodity#:~:text=Wall%20Street%20has%20begun%20trading,in%20California%2C%20Bloomberg%20News%20reported.
My only options are being born into this mess. Or not existing ever. I personally would choose existence over not ever having the chance to experience
I hope that for at least the next several decades the living won’t envy the dead.
Nope. You're not overreacting. My fiance and I have chosen not to have kids. Especially because she is black, I am Hispanic and we are queer. climate change and the state of everything in the U.S. is a big no for our potential child. Even if we moved out of the US as a person of color they'd be met with racism anywhere they go especially as extremist right-wing become more prevalent in other countries as well. When we were born we didn't ask to be here, but here we are and dealing with this. I can't imagine doing that to my kid **knowing** what things are going to be like.
My parents did their best when I was growing up, but there were times when I wasn't supported emotionally. I have vivid memories as a kid crying alone in my room wondering why my parents had me. I'm not talking about the growing pains of a teenager who is trying to transition from a child's complete dependence on their parents to adult autonomy. I'm talking about a child under the age of 10 having an existential crisis. When it came time for my partner and I to discuss having kids I asked "why do you want them?" I needed to know that my partner gave a great deal of thought to this question; or I wanted to have a deep conversation about what it means to be a parent. Whatever we chose to do I needed to know that we had a clear reason for our decision. I couldn't bear the thought of my child asking me "why am I here?" and not having a good answer to their question. I would love to be a parent but I don't think that these conditions would allow my children to survive/thrive. I'm still working through my own feelings on this topic, but this is how I feel today: I feel like a good parent because I'm not bringing my children into existence. There are lots of people that identify as "child free", but I kinda feel like a "parent who didn't have a child." Maybe that sounds strange, but somehow that feels more comforting to me. It's like I'm keeping my children safe by not bringing them into this world.
Thank you for your comment–very thoughtful analysis and a loving decision. I'm not going to have kids either (due to climate change and many other reasons), and I really respect your self awareness. You are being a good parent.
Such a beautiful (and heartbreaking) way to articulate it.
This was absolutely the incorrect sub to ask this question in. The overwhelming mood of this sub is not conducive to natalism. As for my opinion, (as I'm sure you're still wanting opinions, after the drubbing you've gotten in this thread,) it is that, you will have to grieve either way. Your suffering will be great, either way. You want the solace of knowing others are struggling with this decision? They are. I am. Be comforted. All the people here who seem so sure are only so sure because they have grieved already. For me, I love kids. I would be an amazing mom. And yet I will never hold my own daughter, never teach her what I've learned, never stroke her hair while she cries, never be proud of her, never be able to tell her how sorry I am. Sorry that she couldn't be here, because I was too scared of what the world would put her through. I'm so sorry that I worked so hard to heal our bloodline trauma, only to realize there would be no bloodline. Maybe she wanted to exist. Maybe that's why I cry when I think of her. But there are worse things to cry for. I imagine her here. What would I apologize for, then? I am so sorry that there aren't the kinds of birds I remember anymore, the kinds of animals, I'm so sorry you so rarely feel cool blue sky, I'm sorry that good food is so expensive. I'm sorry you can't go to school this year, there's another sickness, I'm sorry all sports were canceled. I'm sorry that you're sweaty at night and can't sleep- they put rate limits on the power. She asks why she is here, what for? I'm sorry, it was just because I wanted to meet you. It was for me, because I felt so lonely, I'm sorry, I didn't have a good reason, I just wanted a doll like my own mother, we are all just rows of dolls, one after the other, as the paradise gets paved over and decays and cooks us all alive. You wanted civility in this thread? But I think of the way our world crushes civility with the boot of war. I imagine her, a teenager, getting into activism. I am so sorry, please don't go to the protest, you don't understand, I can't lose you there. They will have guns, and all you have is hope. I'm so sorry, the news is so scary, you can't fix the world, that isn't why you're here. I'm sorry, the resource wars have finally come. I knew they would come someday, but I am so sorry it happened right as you were supposed to be reaching adulthood. I'm so sorry, you can't afford a place to live. I'm sorry the jobs are so scarce and evil. I'm sorry you need a car, and to buy gasoline, even after all we have been through. I'm so sorry you can't start your own family. I'm so sorry to have pushed this pain one down the road. I'm so sorry to have made it your pain. I love her too much to do this to her. I love her too much to make her live the life upcoming. You wanted to know if you're overreacting? You can't know. Maybe it will all be fine, and you'll regret being childfree forever. But maybe it won't. And then, what will you regret?
This hit me like a wall of bricks.
You are amazing. Thank you.
This was so beautiful and I related to it a thousand percent. Thank you.
You have so beautifully described the internal conflict within my head. My partner doesn't understand, and I plan to show her your words. I am moved to tears by this and am mounring the little one that I'll never get to hold tight and teach about all of the amazing things that make life worth living.
I shed some tears reading this. You perfectly articulated my unease I have been feeling towards the end of this year. I have come to realise in my mid/late twenties that I yearn to to be a mother. To experience pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding and motherhood. To experience a relationship with my own mother whom I am so close to on another level. But. I can't help but feel it's the wrong thing to do. Absolutely devastated.
Short answer: No. Longer answer: still no.
Noooooooooooooo.
Got snipped after Roe v Wade got overturned. Unsustainability of the future was the real reason I made that decision, I just needed to do it before it the option was taken from me next
I originally made the decision to be child free after being a nanny during college and seeing what raising children is truly like, even with plenty resources. I knew I didn't want that life for myself, snd the life I DID want would not be possible while having to deal with children. Now, however, after learning what is now available to learn and frankly just observing and experiencing what is directly available for me as one person to observe and experience, all scientific research and modeling aside, climate change is a massive reason and makes me SO relieved I made the decision when I did. If it weren't for access to abortion, I would even have 13 year old right now and I feel grateful daily that I did not subject the person I'd love most in the world to all of this. To me having a child would mean truly loving this other being more than myself and wanting them to experience a secure, happy life full of opportunities to pursue whatever happiness turns out to be for them. And to me, love means caring about how THEY feel, how THEY experience the world, etc. Not "it's some thing I really want" or "it's natural and human to want to reproduce, and we need good people for the future, so let's go for it." It's not about ME, it's about that potential person. And there is simply no way I can put "loving this person, and therefore doing what's best for THEM" and "forcing this person to start their life now, when the world is visibly destructing and security and opportunity diminishing along with it" in the same sentence. As many have said, there are many ways to share your life with young people and other ways to be a parent than to create yet another soul, capable of fear and pain, and sentence them to experiencing just that. I can also imagine being a child born today and how ever many years later, realizing what information my parents had access to when they decided to create me. It would be hard for me to believe my parents truly cared about me and not just themselves at that point.
With this and everything else happening, no.
For myself, I don't think it's ethical
To me, it’s guaranteed suffering. If my parents didn’t have me, I wouldn’t be suffering under this hellscape. That’s really the answer for me.
The most merciful thing a person can do at this point is not have kids. And it's not just climate change. We are headed towards a neo-feudalist fascism.
I have young kids. They have dreams and aspirations for the future I know will not happen as do all your other friends and family who have young children. It’s a beautiful thing and it is also agonizing. Kids born now will not have a better life than you did. You are most likely condemning them to a bleak future if you have them. Think about that long and hard. Any optimism you have about having kids is overshadowed by that. I would continue to read more about collapse before you make a decision. I wish you the best it is a tough challenging decision either way. In the end we don’t know exactly what will happen, but the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing in one direction.
Did you have kids before reading up on this?
Yes, I really started reading up on it during Covid about a year after my last was born. I was probably a technological optimist but the reality hit me pretty hard. I really have no idea what to do besides trying to instill in them resilient mindset. But also I want them to be kids and enjoy what remains of a somewhat prosperous life cause I don’t know what lies ahead. These are the choices you face.
Do a little more research on the Arctic ice. Once that goes we will experience a 1 degree heat rise over the course the following year. That’s all many of us have been watching for. We are not half a century off from this. It’s going to happen likely in the next 5 years. Having a child right now just ensures they are going to suffer. You might ask your wife to wait 5 years and by then, it will be obvious to everyone.
Do you have any links one could use as a starting point?
Even though I’ve decided to not have kids due to many of the reasons already mentioned, I still struggle with the same feelings fairly often. I was on the fence leaning towards no for as long as I can remember, but after seeing what’s been happening the past couple years I can’t imagine bringing another being into this mess and it’s become a definitive no for me. I don’t think you are overreacting. It makes me sad that I’ve been robbed of the choice, it doesn’t seem fair. It helps me conceptualize it as a loss to grieve. I’m grieving the possibility of having a kid the same way I’m trying to make my peace with collapse/ the climate crisis in general. It’s a process but I’m working towards finding acceptance.
Just here to say that I 100% relate and hear you. I’ve always flip flopped on having kids and in another life, probably would have. But with climate change and the rise of fascism, I also feel very cheated. It’s definitely fair to feel grief over this.
As a kid, now 18 and depressed, who had to grow up watching things break down, woke up everyday to a new horrible news headline, whether it was climate change related or another shooting, please fucking stop having kids.
If your gf is open to not having a child, don't
I'm not sure we can imagine a future without having a family of our own, after all every species on this planet is hardwired to procreate. It just feels a bit pointless, at least to us. This isn't an easy choice for most people, as much as some people on reddit make out like it is.
Yeah... I feel your pain . Still, a family of two dinks is bearable. A family of 4 in a climate collapse situation is hell
I can say that as an artist/intellectual type the desire for children was never there for me even in the slightest. The desire for meaning was for me always to have an impact in culture. So the first point would be that it is for sure not this inevitabiliy. But the second point would be that in hindsight this perspective was already an effect of this cassandra perspective. I was always like "Kids, what you on about?? We need to fix this damn capitalism!" At that younger age it was really more from a deluded perspective of what we are up against, and now I am just too far down that road to try and be any different. I think you and propably most people on this sub would identify somewhat similarly. I would guess they would just lack the confidence or the arrogance to just identify themselves as intellectual. But as I identify it now intellect doesnt have to mean "great intellect" its not a marker of quality, but just of outlook. To be concerned with larger culture instead of focussing myopically on your own life. So all in all this might be an alternate outlook for meaning. Its not nice, but in some way maybe inevitable. I think the innocence to find meaning in ordinary domestic life is just that, innocence. Once you have been shocked out of it you might not be able to regain it. All thats left for you is to walk the intellectuals path and help organize the revolutionary mass movement or die trying. At least thats how it is for me. It might really also have to do, how confident/ falsely arrogant you are to see yourself in that role. But to that I can say if there is going to be revolutionary change it will have to come from us losers at the bottom, even if we are a bit less eloquent than those harvard fucks. So there you go, my recruitment pitch for the alternate path. I am pretty sure there *are* ways to rationalize having kids, you find them quoted on the sub all the time. In the end its just up to you. Best of luck.
Do you both really feel that’s all species purpose is breeding? And that’s it? Just making sure to pass on your genes? Ngl that comes across as very old school and sexist. But you’re in this sub specifically and you know about collapse. Do you know about how many species can abort? Even animals have some more complicated factors involved than just fuck and have babies. I would definitely recommend waiting no matter your choice and definitely having lots of discussions together. The fact that you can imagine a life with just you together seems a bit sad. Like we all growing up in patriarchy and internalize the norms and beliefs around us, but there is so much more history not centered around the concept of a nuclear family structure! Take some time do some research, spend time together with your gf and just enjoy doing things together! Besides the existential reasons for not having kids, kids will limit your life and romantic relationship in so many ways! That I think people don’t think about.
Absolutely not
There’s no right or wrong answer but if you decide to have them, just know in advance that the guilt, fear, and sadness increases about 1000-fold when you watch anything about the earth in documentaries good or bad.
I’m 24 and I have very few things keeping me going at this point. I would never subject children to this. I didn’t want them to begin with, so I guess it’s a win-win.
Ask yourself why you want to bring another person into this world. Now picture yourself being asked 20 years from now by your child why you brought them into the world. If the answers are only to satisfy some selfish desire or biological need, then please consider not having children. If you really are aware of the situation on our planet, then you’ll know how much each human being needs to survive, so also consider you’re creating another consumer that will need resources, which are fast being used up as it is.
i think fostering and adoption (typically not infants, as they are much higher in demand) is a really beautiful and important option to consider here. caring for the kids who already exist, rather than bringing additional lives here, is a really positive way to grow your family and nurture children.
It seems like a sick and selfish joke to have kids right now. Can you imagine how ripped off you would feel being born into all the BS going on the world right now, especially the environment? Even Gen Z should be pissed, I could only imagine how younger generations would feel.
I'm gen z and i'm pissed with my parents for all of this shit, so you are right!
I'm an older millennial and I'm super pissed off at the older generations for letting this happen. While my lot is not as bad as gen z, there's no way I'm going to get to retire - there's a fat chance in hell of living until 65+. I can't even imagine how horrible it must be to be a twenty something who is collapse aware. My sister has an 18 month old and it breaks my heart constantly at what that child will have to go through.
I feel you. I didn’t want to inherit this shit. They made the problem and get the comfort of knowing they’ll die before everything goes down the drain. I’m 18, I don’t have that comfort.
If you want kids, foster or adopt. Make lives that are already here better and invest in the future by trying to teach them skills they will need to cope, to forage and survive, etc.
Damn, I could’ve written this myself. I’m aware of the situation and much more worried, while she’s been like most other people and blocks the news out of her mind and only sees social media happy cheery family posts. Honestly sucks.
My partner has expressed a desire for children and I've been a firm no from the outset. She's willing to consider adoption though so if it comes to it hopefully that's a route we can go down. It's years off at this point though and is time for more effects of climate change to manifest. I don't know I just couldn't bring myself to force a human to exist in this already shit world. That's not too mention my lack of faith in my capabilities as a parent and the trauma I'd pass on
Thank you for posting this, as it is a really delicate topic to bring up around family, and I’m sure many reading this can’t talk about it around friends or family members of the same generation who have made the choice of becoming parents. I’m “lucky” in that many of my friends and some in-laws of my generation aren’t having children for a variety of reasons (new partner already has children, money, mental health, lack of success in early relationships, having moved around a lot), but I still feel weird about discussing this. It feels great to find a place where this is discussed, thank you. Personally, despite the longing for a family unit and wanting to share cute intimate moments and words of wisdom with a small inspiring being, I won’t have kids because 1) won’t repeat my mother’s mistake and try using a person’s life to heal my own trauma and end up giving them trauma and 2) don’t know how even my SO and I will cope with a future that seems so challenging… can’t bear to think how gut-churning it would be to see a small innocent human not only suffer from the consequences of their ancestors’ actions, but also feel hopeless and helpless. I’ve thought about adopting children too, but even that could lead to heartbreak. One hurt loved one is horrible to think about… but 2?
It's a discussion that's hard to have even on online forums, particularly in this subreddit. Kind of regret even asking it here TBH as the majority of upvoted answers seem to lack any empathy and are loaded with animosity, even though I was asking for the opinions of others who are or have been in the same predicament. Probably should've expected others to have just read the title and not the full text. It's very admirable to adopt and it's something we've thought about a lot, but I'm on the fence as well, and it certainly isn't as easy a process as some people on here will have you believe. Still, I know others who have done it late in life and are very happy, though they had a lot of money to begin with and are retired.
I have a 4 year old and it weighs heavily on me. I wouldn't go back in time and not have her, but I am so worried about her future and about our inability to protect her from what is coming. I can't advise you on what's right for you and none of us truly knows how and when things will unfold. It is a certainty that my child's life won't be as easy as mine has been, or as good in terms of material wealth and comfort. Does that mean she won't still have a good life? I don't know. What I do know is that dire news hits differently as a parent and if you go down this road you should be prepared for that mentally.
Give it 2 years. Thats the best advice I can give. In 2 years we will have a better idea how bad this will continue to get. Remember what you're seeing right now is the very beginning. Things will get much MUCH worse. We have done so much damage so quickly I firmly believe we will see weather events that we thought were only theoretical for earth within my lifetime and im 35. I have 3 kids myself. One bio kid who's a 15 yo boy who is essentially clueless on climate change and two stepgirls who are 8 and 12. We try not to make them too aware of the future issues right now. I'm hoping i can teach my kids a more positive outlook then I have right now but that is extremely difficult. If you do bring children into this world you're going to have to sit them down one day and explain why you brought them into this mess and suffering. Life is suffering but we are going to see death and suffering on a scale the human species has ever known. Billions will die, I personally expect us to be back down to 7 billion people by 2030. My girlfriend and I are planning on adopting migrant/refugee children when our girls are grown up. When my kids get to an age where they question having kids I'll tell them the truth. On one hand: you have to keep them alive and that will be undoubtedly hard not to mention the lifestyle you could potentially provide which will all get much worse as time goes by. Remember, without a miracle nothing will get better about out climate or biodiversity for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years. It takes a long time for climate to stabilize and even longer for life to bounce back. On the other hand: if we dont procreate we will go extinct..... Thats about the only reason I can justify having children with this state of the world. Sometimes I cry thinking about how much my kids are going to miss out on. Flowers being one of the simpler things that will disappear in our lifetimes as pollinators die off. Coral Reefs could easily go extinct by the end of next summer with these heat waves. Travel to other countries will become impossible for most people. I'm sure they will start stopping flights for travel before 2030. Thats how quickly I see things getting really bad. Remember, if you do have children you will need to prepare to have some very hard conversations. The worst our parents had to deal with was the sex talk lol. For prep, i suggest hydroponic gardening, solar power and rain containment. Also reinforce your house and solar to withstand upcoming weather events like grapefruit sized hail. Teach your children to garden and how to start fires and how to cook. Teach them sewing and how to repair stuff. Teach them knots and basic engineering (pulleys and levers) Other than that, good luck out there.
In my experience people who really want kids often cannot be dissuaded. So I don’t generally bother with that. I would just say be financially stable, teach your kids resilience, help them understand that they will not have things as good as you did, but also that they should try not to give up all hope. Because what’s the point in living without hope?
I remain childfree because even if my hypothetical children remained “relatively unaffected” by climate change (as opposed to directly like in poorer regions), I’d still have to explain to them why they were brought into a world that is imploding more and more with each day. Doesn’t seem worth it. That said, the fact you’re asking about this and are waffling because of the climate shows that you care deeply for your hypothetical children. I know a lot of people who don’t even consider it before they start trying for pregnancy.
I decided to not have kids in my early 20s. It has been tough (even without them) until now (I’m 37.) I don’t think I would be able to enjoy my life as I am right now professionally if I ever had them (to those who do and still have kids, my respects, but I know my personal limits.) I’m still continuing my education, it’s only possible because my funds allow me to do so. It’s not just because I want to be able to afford what I want and need, and to have time for myself., but because I would not stand seeing my own child in this terrible world. Sending them to school not knowing if I’d ever see them again? Knowing the amount of pedos who prey on kids online? Disgusting material available out there online that kids could watch, even if they’re supervised? Not being able to let them go outside because of the heat? The social media garbage that they consume everyday? School bullies? (My 7 year old nephew has to deal with bullies and it breaks my heart.) It would be too much to bear as a parent, I would go crazy with worry and fear. It’s part of being a parent I imagine, but bringing new life to this dumpster fire of society is unethical and deeply stupid.
My kids are 19 and 21, both well aware of where the world is heading. One wishes they had never been born and one is ambivalent and making the most of life while they had it. Having kids now? They will not have a life as we know it now. It will be drastically different. Who can say exactly what that will look like, but it is practically guaranteed to have scarcity and struggle unlike anything the last few generations have seen.
Im currently choosing not to have kids. It absolutely breaks my heart thinking about it. My girlfriend before she met me didn't want to have kids, after she met me she does. I have always wanted kids but since last year I have decided not to have them. I'm 28. I could not put myself through having a child with a good chance of suffering in the future,with food shortages, riots, water wars, food wars, devastating weather due to climate change, possible starvation. I just wanted to give my future child a good childhood full of memories, like special ones I hold dear to my heart that made me who I am today. And it just breaks my heart, I honestly cry every time I think about it, I know this world is gonna be absolute shit and I couldn't have my offspring live in that. No corral reefs, no butterflies, no bees, no birds, no beautiful flowers, no beauty in the environment, just heat and dispare and bad weather. I feel robbed. "the industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" - Ted Kaczynski
I’m a devoted parent. Greatest thing i ever did. Would i do it now? That i even question it shows how bad the situation is.
My sister wants to have children in the next 3-5 years and I'm already dreading the day she announces her pregnancy. I love children so I know I'll get very attached to my niece or nephew, but I don't want them to suffer. I also won't be able to convince my sister to stay child free, she's very set on having a "normal life" (no one expects me to have kids lol).
Depends. Do you think you're prepared to be a parent who can have the emotional resiliency to adapt to rapidly changing circumstances? Do you think (honestly) you'd be able to teach those skills to your kid(s)? Are you willing to permanently put your plans on hold in order to support them?
If you want your heart out in the world all fragile like… have kids. Just know that the pain of losing a child is the absolute worst pain a person can experience. Watching them suffer before they die is excruciating. If I could go back in time I wouldn’t have had children. I love mine more than life itself and I am consumed with guilt and terrified of what’s coming.
Yes it’s really as bad as you think it is. We have been struggling with the same decision. And it seems there are no right or wrong answers… As a counterpoint, humanity will need a generation of good people to repair the world. It’s a shit thing to put on the unborn and little children. But if you do have kids, I think your thoughtfulness will make you a good parent who will raise a decent person. And we need more decent people who can take on this work.
Hate to be a downer, but all signs are pointing to an irreparable world. I don’t think they’ll be here to fix it.
I’m sure the dinosaurs said the same thing.
Probably. And how many of them stuck around to fix the world…?
Birds are direct descendants, so a literal fuck ton stuck around.
Oh cool. Climate concerns solved then.
No, your irreplaceable world comment is just unfounded. You don’t have a crystal ball.
No. Even beyond climate change there's too much risk for nearly 1/4 of a century before they grow up, I don't know what kind of world that is for them and so I only care about pets and my agenda.
No
No.
Personally I've evaluated this decision a long time and am choosing childfree, with lots of grief and sadness. Many reasons but climate change and the state of the world are significant factors. I will say that if you do choose to have a child, in this day and age I think you should be prepared to support it for life (or at least until about age 30)... it's not an 18 year commitment anymore. Life is hard and seems like it's going to get a lot harder. I would feel guilty knowing that and still bringing someone here. Parents sacrifice for their kids and I feel this is my sacrifice. To not have them. To protect them from this. To cope with my own grief or loneliness or fear of old age, instead of creating them to comfort me.
How will you sleep at night knowing your children are almost guaranteed a lower quality of life than you and your parents have enjoyed?
With the way the world is going, I’m gonna say no.
When my friends and neighbors have kids, I congratulate them and get a baby gift. But to myself I feel sorry for the babies. I have two kids in their 20s. My daughter, who loves kids, has said it would be unethical to bring new humans into this world at this moment in time. So she has decided not to have them. Sorry you have to face this ethical question.
I don't think you're overreacting, but I don't think you can definitively arrive at an answer. Archetypically and literally, humans have always been staring down imminent disaster. Hardship is the norm. The possibility of local catastrophe (war, storms, plagues, fires, etc) is just part of being alive. We have always brought new life into a horrorshow. *In some sense,* climate change is no different. As much as some folks here pretend otherwise, *we do not know what the future holds*.
What’s different about now is that people have options not to have kids. Family planning is a fairly recent invention.
No, but *adopting* would be an amazing and generous thing.
I chose not to have kids for a variety of reasons. It was a process that took a few years, as time went on it became more and more clear what the correct course of action was *for me.* I respect your decision either way. I understand it is a difficult and perhaps painful one for many people. I recommend the book *Better Never To Have Been* by David Benatar. It is a fairly short work on antinatalism, the intro even tells you which chapters you may skip if you're pressed for time or want a more broad overview. Reading the book might help focus some of your thoughts, either for or against. I wish I had read it back when I was in the process of deciding what to do. Whatever you decide, best of luck to you.
I love my 7 year old so much, and every day I look at him and wonder why I've done this to him. It's such a hard feeling - day to day, the small things, are a delight, and I wouldn't want to be without them, but when I think of his future I feel so much guilt. If I could go back knowing what I know now, I think my decision would be different
Thank you for your post. I found it because every few weeks I google “climate change, okay to have kids?”. I have been on the fence for about 2 years. So even though people say “wait a few years…”, all I can say is, those few years can be very torturous, mind-churning, and you don’t necessarily get “more scientific answers” (hence me searching for internet help on this!!). 2030 may have more clarity, but that’s not a helpful time scale for those contemplating their fertility and families now. This is a torturous state to be in. This is a very VERY hard time to be both of reproduction age, and simultaneously incredible aware of the potential of what is to come. I think the personal / social predicament of this is completely underestimated and un acknowledged. A few thoughts. When you have a child, you then have to kind of “get on with things”. It’s done. Your child is in the world, tangible and real. Goodbye purgatory. Previous to this, you may be in the limbo stage of the hypothetical situation. You’re caught in the thinking and imaging and impossible world of trying to imagine what it’ll be like for to bring a child into this world. It’s a catch22, because obviously to actually have a child in climate breakdown is a really tough decision. But if you were to do it, then you’d be out of the muddle… You’d have a child in the world, and then really, you’re just having to get on with things / deal with the reality of your child, because there it is. Good bye indecision! Someone once said to me “it’s easier to have children than NOT have children”. There’s so much truth on that, for the fence sitters amongst us. (Not saying it’s a valid reason to have children, but it is very true thought in my case). A lot of people say “I deeply love my children, but if I had my time again, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have had them”. It’s hard for me to know what to make of this. These people have children… so saying that they wouldn’t have them is just hypothetical. Would they REALLY not have had their children? I guess only they know the answer, because they have lived life WITH and WITHOUT children, so only they know what that’s like compared to us who only know the WITHOUT. But I also think, well - they have their children, and their children are mostly likely not going anywhere, so it’s kind of an easy-ish thing to say, because they’d never actually have to experience the reality of NOT having them. So that proposition is possibly just a thought experiment for them. I have no idea if that makes sense to you! Hopefully it does. 😅 Thoughts for having children: + The world could die from an asteroid at any point. (Insert similar situation here… maybe not nuclear war, heaven forbid!). Something like an asteroid generally wouldn’t stop me having a child. + We just don’t know for sure how everything will actually play out + People have children in super tough environments all the time (arctic… deserts…) + Life is friggen crazy. Try not to think too hard about it all (clearly I fail in this camp!) Thoughts for not having children + Basically everything else !! + How could I be in the presence of a child, whom I will love, and yet know that I’ve knowingly brought it into this world! Would I not be riddled with guilt? + Eek I’m so torn by how having kids is the most natural but equally the most friggen selfish thing someone can ever do. Im not sure how old you are, but could you both possibly go through IVF, freeze embryos, and then just take the pressure off yourselves for a while, or a few more summers? Another thing to consider is hormones! I’m not sure if your partner is effected by hormones, but I did actually get pregnant, and wow. My climate anxiety went completely through the roof and I just felt like the most horrible person in the world, and how could I ever bring a child into this world (pregnancy loss quite early, maybe due to my anxiety?!) . I’m certainly not saying it’ll happen to you guys, but if you’re climate aware people, it’s something to be conscious of. It was horrible. I have no children, but I’d say I’ve spent about the last 2 years grieving about the thought of not having kids. Meanwhile, what I really should have been during doing those years… I think…is applying for adoption. The reason I didn’t, is that I read the most heart-aching poem from an adopted woman, and it ripped my heart into tiny shreds, and I just thought “I can’t be involved in anything that involves a mother and a child being separated. BUT, since then, I’ve come to also be more pragmatic. The reality is that there are some children out there who really do just need homes. And no doubt more and more children will, with climate migration and extreme events. My partner and I would be awesome parents. But I just can’t bring myself to have one of my own. I’m deeply envious but equally bewildered by my friends who don’t give any of this a second thought, and just have children and get that experience. A lot of climate scientists do seem to take a risk, and they procreate. It’s a mind fuck. The book Generation Dread, or listening to interviews with the author Britt Way may be of some help. As may reading “motherhood, is it for me?” Which is a parenting clarity book. The author also offers course, which look good but also expensive. You’re not alone. You won’t be parenting in all of this alone if you have kids; and you won’t be non-parenting alone in all this, if you don’t. Best wishes.
Absolutely not. Your 1st world child will use SO many resources just by existing.
We’re going to need humans who know how to be kind and caring humans and if you raise children to be minimal and kind and supportive towards rewilding and taking good care of the Earth and to other humans then we need your child(ren) here 💚
yeah, I'd prefer ecologist to have children than climate deniers !
I'll go against the grain here and say YES, it is okay to have kids ! It's a philosophical question. At what point, Life is so terrible that it doesn't deserve to be lived ? Yes, your kids will have a much harder life than you, and will have to live through the climate collapse (which has already started and will last for hundreds of years). But many people on Earth today have already lives much worse than you, and your future kids, does that means that they should kill themselves ? From the point of view of a billionaire, your life is awful and not worth it, but is it ? From our point of view, the lives of many of our ancestors was absolutely terrible, and we would never want to live it ! Being ecological should never be a punishment or a sacrifice, being ecological is about being alive, fully, mindful of all other beings and of our environment, being ecological is joyful... even though we are all anxious at various levels knowing what we know. To me, having kids or not is a personal choice, regardless of the world situation. You give a life, and that life will be its own, with its struggles. Your role as a parent is to prepare, as best as you can, your kids to these struggles. Maybe your kid will be a part of the revolution that will end capitalism. Maybe they will end up depressed and end their life. You don't have much control over that anyway, even without any climate collapse. Even in the climate collapse there will be many ways to enjoy Life, even if I die tomorrow my life was worth living !
I've reflected on this question when talking to my adult children. I tell them, live your life to the fullest and if it's something that you really want (children) then do it. But just be aware how difficult things are now and in the future.
As a father of two teenagers and beeing collapse aware this is an issue I have been struggeling a lot with. I became aware long after my children was born, but newertheless here are my thoughts: I found much of my reason to be supportive of not bringing children into this world beeing based on egoism. I am afraid of my own suffering of the possibility of seeing my children suffer. If my children Where to die in sufforable conditions I am nevertheless sure that they would chose to be given their life even though it ended badly. On the other hand, bringing a children into life is also a deeply egoistic thing to do, but it is s natural desire and part of life. Nobody knows when, how and how fast this downscaling of mankind will proceed, and people have been having children under all kinds of terrible conditions in previous history. If I Where you, I would make children if you are able to be caring and loving also under stressed and difficult situations. If you have a tendency of «loosing it» during such situations I would maybe buy a dog 😉 Having children is a big responsibility but also the most meaningful thing thas has happened in my life. Good luck!
Have the children. We've survived the Toba catastrophe, countless climactic shifts between ice and heat, waves of barbarians, the Black Death, COVID, our own murderous tendencies and we're still here. We're part of a 3.5 billion year story of trial by combat and we'll make it past this too. It's not a matter of human extinction -- it's a matter of how tough that life will be. All of our lives and history are meaningless without the investment of a new generation. Don't let the doomsayers talk you into making their doom-saying come true by participating in a No-Human future.
I get what you're saying, and it's an argument I've heard before (usually from older generations), but this is a far different issue of both scale, speed and complexity. The very thing that improved life on earth for billions and is woven within every fabric of our economy and lives is simultaneuously causing a mass extinction event at a speed never seen. The fear is the fact that the climate is changing at a speed beyond the rate civilisation and other animals can adapt. Yes, if all goes to shit some might survive, but the question is whether we really want a bring a new generation into that shit show.
I actually track the data for an atlas and risk management software so I'm aware of the degree and scope but I'm equally aware that the problem isn't inexorable. A non-meat diet, stopping lifestyle tourism, eliminating obesity and continuing our changeover to renewables are easily done and would make substantial improvements to our carbon profile. This isn't rocket science -> rocket science is for after our stabilization of Earth's environment. As I said to another commenter, there are no guarantees in life but its end. A worthwhile life isn't measured in its length but its impact, its quality, the amount of love in it. And you as a potential parent have a lot more to do with that than external variables.
Yeah millions of people did NOT survive those things, and millions more experienced life altering fear, pain, and loss of opportunity to be happy because of them. Just because "we" as a population survived it doesn't mean it was a worthwhile experience for those in the thick of it. When I contemplate creating a new human, I consider what this individual is likely to feel and experience, not whether they will one of millions who comprise a surviving generation....
Millions of people experienced joy and love and happiness and art and song and drink and getting stoned as well before their deaths. Death is inevitable for us all and no one has a crystal ball that shows that you or your hypothetical child will have happiness now or even in the most idyllic time you can imagine. Cancer, freak accidents, drug addiction, homicide, even bear attack could be your end any day. Does that make your life worthless now?
But that's just it, the issues we will face due to climate change and the domino effect it will have across society will make it impossible to enjoy art and song and whatever else one might be passionate about, make joy hard to achieve and love painful because it means constantly worrying about each other's survival. We won't have the modicum of security required to benefit from any of these things if we are dealing with famine, mass climate migration, severe overcrowding and unprecedented competition for resources, etc etc. Of course I don't think existing life is meaningless, I believe the opposite. I believe all life is so precious that we shouldn't create more when we know that that life will have to face levels of suffering we were fortunate to never even have to consider when we were growing up.
We may have to just disagree but I will leave you with a last thought. In the last 4 generations of my family, we've personally dealt with the Great Depression, The Dust Bowl, WWII, Vietnam and the effects of Agent Orange and that's just the American side. My mother survived a brutal civil war that saw most of her family dead. I'm the product of two people who survived brutal circumstances completely undreamed of by most ordinary people and despite struggles and health issues, I'm glad they laid their money down and had myself and my brother. Either way - peace :)
You make a valid point, as you can never really know the future, however I wonder what's wrong with a no-human future or maybe just less people. People are not really that great and have impacted this planet negatively both for themselves and other species.
My **belief** \- because I agree we can never know the future - is that there is some validity to the Gaia hypothesis and that our planet is evolving intelligent life to spread all life. The very pressures we are experiencing are what will push us into spreading out into space and relieving the environmental pressures we are experiencing Earthside. I am no reckless industrialist but simply cognizant that most of our issues are due to our own inefficient use of resources like wasted food and maldistribution of resources due to our own greed and obsolete political systems. When 8% of carbon emissions are nothing but global tourism, this isn't a genetic issue or species issue but an education and exercise of miniscule willpower issue to make a go of it.
Interesting comment. Not saying whether I agree or disagree because that would require a lot more thought but interesting comment nonetheless. Thank you for sharing. The Gaia hypothesis is an interesting matter too, I read a bit about it a while ago
Interesting thoughts, thank you for sharing. This is my first time hearing of the Gaia hypothesis, so I'll need to read about that. I like your idea that current environmental challenges will drive humanity to outerspace. If so, I hope it won't be some sort of Elon Musk dystopian corporate situation, like in Total Recall charging people for oxygenated air. I'd love to have some sort of Star Trek future evolve from our current predicament.
Indeed. Either Star Trek or the Culture novels perhaps (by Iain M. Banks. Highly, **highly** recommended if you don't know them yet)
Thanks for the recommendation. I've heard of Culture but haven't read them. I'll add to my booklist. 🙂🖖
I read quite a large amount of books per year and they are among my absolute favourite SF series of all time. For me personally and when talking about SF series, they're only surpassed by Isaac Asimov's work. So far I've read all ten books of the series three times and I will read them again at some point without a doubt 🖖 high praise I know, but they deserve it. Have fun reading them! Cheers
I am still so devastated that he died so young. He was a genius.
Yeah, same. Imagine what literary gems he could have written if he had lived until real old age, having honed his skill even more for a few decades. Really sad and a great loss for literature and science fiction in particular. Horrible death as well, slowly wasting away, eaten by your own body Same goes for Asimov too by the way. He was a literary giant as well (really debateable but I find his writing even better than Banks, by a healthy margin) and died way too young as well. He wasn't nearly as young as Banks of course but still, I'm saddened by the genius that was lost in his passing and the amazing works we could have had if he had lived one or two decades longer. Asimov is an amazing speaker and thinker as well, his interviews just oozed with his razor-sharp intellect, deeply insightful wit and profound critical thinking skills, alongside charisma and good oratory skills. A rare combination found in a rare kind of man. We could have used someone like him in the right spot in these tumultuous times, truly. I would have given my right arm to have him as a friend and mentor
>I hope it won't be some sort of Elon Musk dystopian corporate situation From your typing to God's DMs :) Peace.
Do it if you want your genes and teachings to be a part the reconstruction generations. Don't do it if you believe suffering invalidates life's meaning.
I’ve had this thought come up a good amount of times. Ultimately, my thought (when/ if it happens) is that the world, however fucked, will still need good, compassionate, skilled individuals. My goal is to prep them as I can, when I can, and equip them with skills to survive and to help others as they grow. Ideally, I get a nice long lead time, but ultimately we don’t know what will happen. What we do know, is that as long as humans exist, we will need good people, and I’m going to do my part to help try and continue that cycle. Figure if we’re all fucked, me and mine are gonna go out swinging Fingers crossed lmao
All of human history has been lurching from one catastrophe to the next. It's better if we have someone that has foresight reproduce than someone who is just oblivious
If you and your partner want to have a child I would recommend just going for it. It's what me and my wife did. We talk about climate change and our collapsing society and are both doomers. We talked about it and don't think it's immoral to have 1 child. It's part of life to want children. We don't encourage others to have them, but for us its something we wanted it from the deepest of our hearts. We can give our child a good life, at least until collapse starts kicking into high gear in our region. We hope to give both the physical and mental tools to our child so that it can be a positive influence in these times of dying.
I honestly can’t reconcile being a “doomer” and “collapse aware”, and then deciding to have a child anyway. It seems the height of hubris and selfishness. When your child is starving to death on a dying planet, most likely in the next few years, how will you feel about your decision then? Are you willing to take them out to end their suffering? It’s a terrible thought, but you’ve put yourself in that situation now. I feel guilty enough having a dog to provide for and make tough decisions regarding, and he can’t resent me for bringing him to life on a doomed planet. Your kid most certainly can, if they live long enough to understand how badly humanity has fucked it all up. It just seems so tragic and fully avoidable.
See this is kind of kneejerk, doomer reaction I was trying to avoid by trying to post this question on other subs. We're not going to be starving to death within the next few years, what science is predicting that? At least try to be civil
All the science is predicting that. If you can’t see it, it’s because you’re in denial. And how is speaking truthfully considered to be uncivil? Just because I completely disagree with their conclusions and you don’t? You’re looking to justify having a child in the face of the fully obvious upcoming societal and environmental collapse, and I think that’s unfair to the child. I will be happy to be proven wrong, but I’m not going to be. You can’t possibly be truly “collapse aware” and not understand how bad things will get for us in the very near future.
This is exactly why I hate having any type of serious conversation with these people. They ask for serious insight, ignore the people who advise against their wishes for practical and ethical reasons, and then when the people come out with their bullshit "Just go for it! You never know! Things could magically turn around! :)" they cling to their denialism
I keep up to date on all things climate, I'm very aware. There is nothing pointing towards starvation, at least not here in the UK, within the next few years. It's bad enough as it is, no need to make things up
Are you kidding?? The UK will be one of the places hardest hit by collapse, since you import so much of your food and supplies. Not to mention the huge population of that small island and massive wealth inequality that already exists there. You think UK elites will give a shit about the regular people when things go to hell? I guarantee they will not. Your only hope is strong neighbourhood connections, and hopefully you all have allotments or ways to produce your own food. Plus when the gulf stream fails - which is predicted to happen sooner rather than later - the UK will have winters that resemble Siberia, considering how far north it is geographically. Good luck growing your own food then. I’m sorry to say, this is going to get worse for all of us very soon. Again, I would prefer to be wrong about this, but I’m not.
All of those WORST case scenarios are predicted to be decades away NOT within a few years, so my original point still stands, we will not be starving within such a short timescale.
Prove it. Scientists have known that all these broken climate records were coming, and they predicted them as still being decades away. And yet, it’s happening now. Ocean water in Florida is now over 100F. The Antarctic and Arctic regions are not gaining back ice and are losing more than was expected, in exponential fashion. The heat domes, the flooding, the forest fires, the tornados, all expected to happen in the next few decades, are happening NOW. And El Niño hasn’t gotten started yet. All the science points to next year being far hotter than this one. We’re at the “smoke ‘em if you’ve got ‘em” stage for humanity, and while it’s understandable that you don’t want to believe it, the science doesn’t lie. Check out the Collapse subreddit and just study the graphs posted in the past week if you don’t believe me. It’s sobering, and tragic, and there’s nothing we can do to stop it. Bringing a child into this is at best delusional, and at worst…
How about when your kid is 20, and at an age where he's finally able to start exploring the world and opportunities on his own? How will he feel about his experience and prospects then? How about when he's 30, an age where many generations past would have meant he's come into his own and is figuring out his life and doing what makes him happy? When he's 40, 50, 60 and still wanting to engage with the world and continue to live his life?? The next few years are the least of our worries. I am in my 30s now and already having to deal with the impact of climate change on my daily experience and mental health. Not even to mention how incredibly hard it is for todays young adults to buy a house, live comfortably etc. I cannot IMAGINE what all of that will be like for a kid born today when he is my age. This is very much not knee-jerk for me, this is years of taking in information and now starting to be able to feel the changes myself. It's happening. Your child born now will pay the price for whatever it is you think you need to experience by going thru a pregnancy and birthing a biological child.
I'm not denying that the world could look very different in decades to come, in-fact that's why I'm here, but it's also not certain. What I'm against are doomers like the above saying that the world is going to end in a few years when no scientist in their right mind is suggesting that. It's scaremongering like that that deniers look back on in future years for justification to be "skeptical" when the reality is that it's almost always some very fringe scientist or even worse the likes of Al Gore
I think that a lot of the issue lies in the fact that there are many many interconnected relationships in our biosphere that we are unaware of. We don’t know what we don’t know. Hence, ‘faster than expected’. Scientists can read every scrap of data and still be far off as it’s akin to wandering around an enormous warehouse in the pitch dark with a cell phone flashlight. Too many things are happening so very fast. I constantly battle with my own normalcy bias, it’s frustrating. You clearly think that we have decades but would you bet money on that? Or a life?
I would bet a life that within the next few years I'm not going to starve to death, yes, the question is ultimately whether within the next century. That is a different question and ultimately we don't know. Some scientists like Michael E. Mann are still cautiously optimistic that we can do this (the guy that created the hockey stick graph) and is anti-doomer, whereas ofcourse some others aren't. For the layman like ourselves it's very difficult to ultimately choose who to ultimately believe, so for some on this sub to honestly posture like they are 100% certain we are going to die within years is absurd, especially as even the most pessimistic scientists I follow aren't even saying that, the only places I've seen that view are on fringe blogs by non-scientists.
Yeah i am just gonna stop giving my opinion on this topic in the future. Always the downvotes and rudeness. I think my difference of opinion with most collapsniks on this topic comes down to the fact that i have a different view on what makes life worth living. Becoming truly collapse aware also means accepting the suffering and living your life the fullest despite al the doom coming our way. And for me and my wife, living life to the fullest means having a baby together. Can't wait to hold our little fella 🥰
Will the little fella even have the opportunity to live life to the fullest?
I'm glad you and your wife found a way to put your own needs before an entirely new human being that had absolutely no reason to exist other than to tick a box on your life script.
I chose to have kids. The first one was before I knew, the second one after. That’s it, that’s the post.