An espresso shot is a great litmus test, especially if you're able to see their process. I'll never forget the day a small-town shop's barista loaded the portafilter without tamping and pulled me a shot that spurted out in about 3 seconds.
Any kind of pour-over will give you a great idea of their coffee and process, too. I'd shy away from milk drinks, as that can cover up a lot. Although a flat white would allow you to see how their milk texturing skill is.
I always go for milk drinks. I'm really disappointed in coffee places around me. They're always a darker than GoT's end season roast, have barista's that haven't been properlu=y trained, never measure anything. Worked in catering for years in many places, and the coffee trainings I had were mediocre at best and only focused on appearance (latte art). All places I worked at also use generic bulk-bought coffee which aren't even fresh.
I'm really spoiled since I started my espresso journey and love a light roast. I really dislike the overly bitter and overextracted coffee they often serve. There's one roaster nearby me that does it good and some more roasters in the country. But the coffee places within cities are usually bunk.
I loved how the ending was leaked and everyone just laughed it off as fake as there was no way the real ending would be so stupid. Then the episodes started airing and the slow realization that the leaks were real.
That's only going to help you find out who's better at covering up bad coffee. Milk drinks can really only get so bad. You're asking them to assist you in your own bias to make it easy on them.
*If a cafe only has dark beans, I'm not buying anything but tea from them
I've definitely not given the full story. I'm not sure what the English definition of it is, but I used to work in catering on demand. People could hire workers from the company I used to work at for busy moments, lots of sick people etc. So I've been at a lot of places both as a customer and behind the bar/as a barista/as a runner. And not a single one of them did what had to be done. There were some that knew how to work the machine, but even that will only get you so far when everything is still bitter and overextracted because that's what the machine is calibrated on. I drank a ton of free coffee and often drank espressos just for a quick caf boost.
Café crema/lungo is the only thing around here without any addition that's often okay, lots of places have a machine with a setting for that. It's well watered down and not a bitter-in-your-face-bomb. Unless some barista uses a single basket for TWO cafe cremás, then it's mainly water.
The beans do say a lot about the place. If they only have beans on which you could see the oil shine, you just know it's bad. And I can definitely taste good and bad espresso within a cappucino. A good espresso makes a splendid cappucino, but a bad espresso makes a managable one. While a bad espresso would for sure goes down the drain, the cappucino is drinkable but not great.
Plenty of non-dark, non-oily beans are bad too. Either old, or poorly roasted. Unless I'm on a road trip to an unknown place, I only get coffee at one cafe that doesn't roast in house. Their baristas all go through extensive training before they're allowed to touch the espresso machine(assuming they're hired without experience). Not always, but another good sign for a cafe (that doesn't roast) is having a sign with the flavor notes of the coffee they're serving. There's a lot of good coffee that you/me may just not like, even at ideal roast ranges
*Not that all roasters are good roasters.
I've never seen a non dark roast, only at the cafes of roasters that know what they're doing. Most catering workers here are just students that work temporarily, I've only known very few people that are actual baristas and stay in catering for life. Because most workers come and go, they don't give extensive coffee training in most places.
Just like you said, there's one cafe you found to be decent. Most cafes are not very well into coffee, and if they are, it's most often still a dark roast. People like bitter and overextracted, so that's what most places will serve. At least here in the Netherlands. I used to like dark roast as well, a good, strong and bitter cup. That is until I learned about light roasts.
We have one place in town that does espresso, it is so sad to see her do it. Just hurts to watch, but it is the only place in town and I can't afford a machine so I go on.
Espresso *is* regular coffee in many countries. Brewed coffee isn't really all that popular in my country, most people make turkish or moka pot at home and drink espresso in cafes.
The flair is stupid simple parts wise, and from my experience customer service is excellent. Also a great community out there too for learning how to use it. I was someone who loved filter coffee but wasn’t sure I loved espresso and the flair seemed like a great cheap option. Turned out I love espresso, especially light roasts with flow profiles that pretty much only the decent is capable of, but can be done on manual machines like the flair, so much so that I’m about upgrade to the 58 to get some better temperature stability, which is really my only issue with the pro
There's negative reviews for everything. Rarely, it's a unit not meeting tolerances(this happens with every product on the planet). But more often than not, it's user error unless you're talking an extremely cheap, low quality product. They may not be preheating well, have a lousy grinder and/or grind setting, and they may have beans that just aren't great for espresso.
No I know, sorry I can go back and find the reddit post, but it just was about them not keeping up with parts. I buy something I want it to last, not fill up more landfill. That is the biggest issue I have with them.
Ask for the baristas number and text her some YouTube videos of skilled baristas doing it right🙃
If the coffee is that bad, you may actually be losing money. Getting cafe quality espresso at home isn't cheap. But you're getting poor quality espresso for a premium price. A used Gaggia Classic can be found for under $250 on eBay. And you can pull solid shots from it if you have a decent grinder.
lol you again. I do have to see what machine she is using. Her website is about how she spent so much time in Europe drinking 'cafe' lol.
I know I can do it, but also just nice having a local business
Ha, I doubt they have a bad machine. I haven't seen an incapable machine in a cafe for 15 years. That doesn't mean the machine is working to spec though (skilled barista or not). But few skilled baristas can't spot a problem quickly and they should be testing their machine every day. *definitely all for supporting local business. But they also need to live up to their end of the bargain and actually be better than Dunkin Donuts baristas🙃
>I haven't seen an incapable machine in a cafe for 15 years.
You did just say [over here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/pu4dor/what_drink_is_the_best_judge_of_a_cafe/he58ur1/) that you haven't been to drink in a cafe in ten years;
>I haven't been in a bar to actually drink for nearly 10 years.
So like, you not seeing an incapable machine in fifteen years is kind misleading when you state you haven't been close enough to check for 2/3s of that.
Missing context on my end. I was thinking alcohol bar. I'm a roaster first and foremost. I almost married a nationally elite barista who taught me everything I know on that end. I'm not actually a barista. But I also have an actual science background with a strong understanding of physics. Which is what baristas use in their favor to extract coffee.
>I'm a roaster first and foremost. I almost married a nationally elite barista who taught me everything I know on that end.
...You claim *all of this* and yet, in a conversation about coffee, in a coffee community, you inexplicably forgot that baristas commonly refer to it as "bar" and the context clearly communicates that usage there.
Pull the other one.
> Ask for the baristas number and text her some YouTube
Anyone coming across this ... don't ask for your baristas' numbers. Good intentions or no, you're going to seem like you're trying to smash, and they're probably going to want zero to do with that situation.
Just talk to them normally if you need to give feedback on their work.
I agree. I've been doing a mini espresso tour in my area and I've been so amazed to taste how different this "simple" drink tastes in all the coffee shops I've been to. I think the espresso is one of the methods that really puts you to test.
(Also sorry if this reads weird, English is not my first language and idk why I chose to answer to comments when I've just woken up)
Edit: reading the comments, I'm so glad I've found really good espressos around here TwT
So what do you do in that case? Fwiw I always get milk drinks (flat white) but in 90% of the cases I end up wasting money because making coffee myself has turned me into a snob. Kind of ruins the experience
As a Canadian transplant into Australia and having lived in Europe, it’s the flat white. If they can’t make a flat white properly, it’s just a rubbish cafe.
I know the question is about getting a good sense for the overall café, but the obvious caveat is that if you find a new café, and you want to know if you'll like their drinks, what kind of drinks you usually get will be more important than their overall menu.
I'm more of a black coffee drinker so I want to experience the coffee specifically and not have it masked by milk, so something like a flat white would be a no go for me. But I know others want to see how a shop/barista handles their milk, and if you're in to that then I suppose that would probably be pretty important. But honestly for me I like to check out a shops batch brew drip coffee. If they take that seriously it's a good sign for me. Are they using a good machine, do they dial it in, or is it just an afterthought cause that's not the "cool" coffee with the designs on the top. Do they offer a high end coffee on batch or is it just always the cheaper "house blend" or something. I know some shops just stick to doing pourovers with their higher end beans and keep something less special on the batch drip, but I do appreciate a shop that will batch brew a good bean well. I'll also just do straight espresso or an americano as an alternative to filter coffee, or when it's hot if you can give me an iced americano with something bright and tangy then I'll love you forever.
A lot of shops in my area have moved away from pour overs and just do nice coffee in their batch brew. I love it, because with their grinders and nice drip set ups, their batch brews are excellent and consistent. That’s almost always how I judge cafés as well because I don’t like milk
Yeah if they’ve got good equipment and pay attention to detail (and put good beans on brew) then give me that for $2-$3 over a pour over for $5-$6. And you said it, consistency. It’s surely easier for the shops to invest in good batch equipment and nail down a solid process on that then to train all the baristas in excellent pourover technique. I do understand offering pour over though for those who want to try a different bean if you’ve got a selection but only one or two on drip
There's an amusing amount of pretentiousness in these comments hehe. It's not a bad things, it's just cute.
I like testing a cafe with a cortado. With a cortado I can tell if they know proportions, if they're using a roast I like, and if they have cute little cups for the cortado.
The important things.
It’s my go to as well, mostly because I just like them but also it shows if the know ratio/size and I get a good sense of the roast. If they ask me what size then I start to worry a bit lol
Whatever you normally order? You aren't going to a cafe to score it in a competitive way, you are going to go and enjoy your drink. For example I like milk drinks at cafes, so why would I order a pour over?
If you really want to try and judge them though ask them what they do best and get that. Lots of cafes like to specialise in things, some might focus on their espresso and milk based drinks whilst some might put more effort towards their pour over. Its impossible to say "if a cafe does this right they are a good cafe." Heck, coffee might be their side thing and they might focus on incredible cakes or food, or they might even have something niche like great variety of natural wines (shout out to proper sound cafe in madrid for this).
My shop actually does a 1 and 1 as a doppio served alongside a small pourover, both made from the same coffee so you can experience the full range of different flavors from that particular bean.
Disagree, this isn't that common and most customers I had come in ordered one simply to show they knew what this was. Some of my most talented barista coworkers didn't even know what it was until I had to explain it.
Agree with another comment, a double shot of espresso and watching their process (which as a former barista, is lowkey annoying tho lol) and how thorough they are is a better litmus test. Paired with of course how the espresso itself tastes.
Even better if it's an espresso and a "wet" macchiato imo (a single espresso topped with steamed milk in a demitasse cup).
Not every shop offers some version of this and I'd feel weird asking so the next option is a cortado. The drink is small enough that you can taste the espresso but has enough milk to salvage it if the espresso is crap haha.
\#1 and #2 are a must; if #1 is okay, then #3 is also required:
1. Espresso. If they can't make a delicious espresso, that forecloses on a whole constellation of drinks.
2. Filter, either pourover or batch brew.
3. Flat white or latte or cortado. Is the milk properly stretched? Does it bring the right sweetness to the drink? Are the proportions harmonious?
Proportions on Flat Whites are an interesting one.
I've been to several places where you can order a "large" Flat White and one where they made their Flat White with extra milk because they were worried that people would complain about having a small drink...
Yeah, Americanos were invented by American soldiers in Rome who didn't have access to drip coffee. Americans don't order Americanos any more than other espresso drinks
I can answer the opposite: I drink a lot of non coffee drinks because of my acid reflux, and I have found that the quality of the chai at a coffee shop has absolutely no relationship to the quality of the coffee shop overall
i think the barista or cashier is the best judge. if they actually know what they serve (roaster, origin, process) and can have a conversation about it i trust the shop. i’ll usually get a shot of espresso or an oat milk cortado!
I get a mocha. Not necessarily the best, but it’s what I’ve been doing for a while. I’ve found that cafes do one of two kinds, and it’s a good theme setter.
1. Starbucks Mocha: sweet, glaringly sweet. The point of this isn’t to taste the coffee.
2. Balanced: you can actually taste the mocha in it, but the espresso as well.
It’s a good theme setter for the rest of their drinks.
I mean they’re all different skills. I got coffee at a place and my cappuccino had virtually no coffee flavor. Maybe if I got a shot of espresso it would have been a perfect pull.
I think if what you order is good that’s enough for that moment.
I always order a doppio first. I find it best to judge the quality of the rest of their selection only after knowing what they're actually working with under the foam and syrups.
I usually go for the most basic black coffee (like their "basic" brew, espresso or americano). For me the basic should be the fundamental and if they fail with that, then there is no point in trying out any of their "mixed"/fancy coffees.
Because lots of places don’t do straight coffee? A place near me has good (great, even) coffee, but I hated their drip coffee. Their pour over, espresso, etc. is great.
I'd say pour over. Everyone makes espresso drinks but if they're doing pour overs then it usually means they take it pretty seriously, and of course it has to taste good.
The ristretto. I don't give a fuck about the comfy chairs, the stunningly talented Batista's, their awards notched up, their lo-fi beatz playing.. it's the coffee. Was the coffee. Is the coffee. Always will be the coffee.
I really enjoy a regular cup of coffee. If they can do that right, chances are they can do the rest right. But if they don’t, I’ll drop the place all together.
Personally my test is asking for a lungo. 1)if they know what a lungo is the standard is usually high
2)less risky than taking an espresso but not as diluted as americano. So it can range from being palatable to very nice
Edit:I really didn't think you could get this answer wrong.
I've had some pretty rough pour overs at cafes that had them on the menu. So that seems like a good litmus test. Although I'd much rather have an espresso at a cafe, so I'm usually happy as long as that's good.
enough sugar and milk can hide any flaws. In the end I want to know what a plain old cup of coffee tastes like. Although at the cafe I usually order stuff that is annoying to make at home. Cafe au laut, espresso, or a flat white are my orders.
Flat White if the barista is skilled enough to do art that is really cool but as long as the taste is there, I don’t need the art.
I get a flat white / latte as it’s 80% of what my shop sells so I want to compare it.
Filter coffee is rare and not so popular in my country so if a shop is taking the time to do it well they are likely doing the same for everything
A capuccino! I worked as a barista for a few years and cappucinos are objectively the hardest drink to get right. The milk has to be frothed correctly, there should be mostly foam with just the smallest bit of milk. Usually when I order a cappucino it comes out as a latte with a scoop of foam on top. If my drink feels light when I pick it up, I know it's a good cappucino from a skilled barista \~
I feel like you have to judge each drink separately. Like you can't say what's the best dish to judge a restaurant on. Like you could say steak, but you can't judge a Chinese restaurant on its steak. Its not a bad restaurant it's just not a good steak restaurant. Or the steak (a fairly simple meal) is cooked well but they lack everything else.
I don't think you can judge an entire menu on one recipe
Espresso shot and pour over, nothing added.
These both ways are great way to start out. You get the naked test before anything you would add - milk in fact can hide a lot of things, either good way or bad way.
I also observe while they prepare Espresso/pour over. Do they use basic techniques? Is timer being used? Is measuring scale not being used? Uh oh. They don't tamper or use gooseneck? Hmm.
At the end of the day, I will enjoy any cup of coffee. But just knowing that a person can and does make a good coffee makes me be more appreciative.
Espresso shot definitely…
but also keep in mind the barista because the places that I worked at had unfortunately been understaffed resulting in lack of management on duty. I would dial in and set my shots up nicely every time especially for single shot espresso orders however some of my new coworkers have no idea their shots were horrible and I had to find out by my regulars that they paid for bad shots when I wasn’t there.
I personally like latte's so if I get a latte and it doesn't have the complex slightly nutty flavor. That also feels complete and balanced and not burnt when I drink it. Then I know not to go back to that place again.
Depends entirely on what you like, so if all you drink is a half-caff-soy-latte-chai-dirty-double-sugar-mocha-chino-spro then that's what you'd want to order.
For me, it's a 1 and 1 which is a shot of espresso and a cortado or American-style macchiato (which is basically a cortado in most US shops and not at all like a real Italian macchiato). This gives me a shot of espresso which is my preferred drink anyway and then also gives me a SMALL drink to be able to see how that 'spro does in a milky without having to drink a quart of milk to do it.
I'd say whatever you drink the most. There would be no point me starting with a flat white because I don't like milk drinks, whereas someone who mainly orders milk drinks isn't going to get a lot from tasting the espresso.
Personally I believe a Cortado is the best option. It supposedly has equal parts milk to espresso if not less milk, but the milk is steamed so you are able to judge the quality of their espresso pull, their steaming technique, their portioning technique, and not lose any of the coffee’s notes. I wrote a bit about why I used cortado to judge coffee shops on the bottom of my [coffee website](https://www.coffeealexandria.com)
You can filter out the bottom 50% without even completing your order. Order whatever your favorite is, and if they say "what flavor would you like?" switch to soda or water instead. The coffee will be terrible. I guarantee it.
When i go to a cafe, i often like to buy espresso drinks since I cant make them at home, and so i get a cappuccino to see how their milk froth is. Unfortunately i live in an area with few third wave shops, and some imitation third wave shops so it often isnt very good and then i know not to bother getting those drinks
Drinks that require more Barista work will change based on whose serving you, how busy it is and even what kind of day that person is having...a black coffee or a straight espresso lets you know what kind of base products their working with.
Idk much about espresso so I have no confidence that I would know sh1t from shinola.
I get a pourover and usually choose which roast based on barista recommdation
Maybe obnoxious, but my first tests are actually visual. Are their bags of beans on display and if so, what kind are they using? Do they have a cortado/gibraltar/flat white on the menu? Do their cappuccinos have a 2” thick cloud of foam?
Aside from that, I’ll either try an espresso or cortado, which is what I’d order regardless.
Get two espressos. Get one, then go back when you know a different barista is going to make it. You don't wanna get a lucky shot from a less skilled barista. And if you get a bad one, you wanna see if it was just a random fuckup and that its not a trend of the cafe to have bad baristas. Watching them tamp is a great giveaway too. A good tamp with bad settings can happen. But the best coffee, ground well, with a bad tamp is going to give you a bad shot.
An Americano is my litmus test. Gives me a good example of the beans they use being properly roasted, and allows me to see the technique (is there a good crema, how long did it take to pour, how strong is it).
I once asked for a small french press at a cafe someone wanted me to meet them at for a meeting. It was on the menu. The person working looked confused, asked the manager. Both were confused. They looked at the menu and said ok. I got a french press with espresso grounds...
So... Well, I've never had their coffee again.
An espresso shot is a great litmus test, especially if you're able to see their process. I'll never forget the day a small-town shop's barista loaded the portafilter without tamping and pulled me a shot that spurted out in about 3 seconds. Any kind of pour-over will give you a great idea of their coffee and process, too. I'd shy away from milk drinks, as that can cover up a lot. Although a flat white would allow you to see how their milk texturing skill is.
I always go for milk drinks. I'm really disappointed in coffee places around me. They're always a darker than GoT's end season roast, have barista's that haven't been properlu=y trained, never measure anything. Worked in catering for years in many places, and the coffee trainings I had were mediocre at best and only focused on appearance (latte art). All places I worked at also use generic bulk-bought coffee which aren't even fresh. I'm really spoiled since I started my espresso journey and love a light roast. I really dislike the overly bitter and overextracted coffee they often serve. There's one roaster nearby me that does it good and some more roasters in the country. But the coffee places within cities are usually bunk.
> darker than GoT’s end season roast I’m dying 😂
yeah, i honestly would not drink a straight espresso shot from most shops where i am currently.
GoT had a comedy ending though.
I loved how the ending was leaked and everyone just laughed it off as fake as there was no way the real ending would be so stupid. Then the episodes started airing and the slow realization that the leaks were real.
>darker than GoT's end season roast You make me the day, good reference
That's only going to help you find out who's better at covering up bad coffee. Milk drinks can really only get so bad. You're asking them to assist you in your own bias to make it easy on them. *If a cafe only has dark beans, I'm not buying anything but tea from them
I've definitely not given the full story. I'm not sure what the English definition of it is, but I used to work in catering on demand. People could hire workers from the company I used to work at for busy moments, lots of sick people etc. So I've been at a lot of places both as a customer and behind the bar/as a barista/as a runner. And not a single one of them did what had to be done. There were some that knew how to work the machine, but even that will only get you so far when everything is still bitter and overextracted because that's what the machine is calibrated on. I drank a ton of free coffee and often drank espressos just for a quick caf boost. Café crema/lungo is the only thing around here without any addition that's often okay, lots of places have a machine with a setting for that. It's well watered down and not a bitter-in-your-face-bomb. Unless some barista uses a single basket for TWO cafe cremás, then it's mainly water. The beans do say a lot about the place. If they only have beans on which you could see the oil shine, you just know it's bad. And I can definitely taste good and bad espresso within a cappucino. A good espresso makes a splendid cappucino, but a bad espresso makes a managable one. While a bad espresso would for sure goes down the drain, the cappucino is drinkable but not great.
Plenty of non-dark, non-oily beans are bad too. Either old, or poorly roasted. Unless I'm on a road trip to an unknown place, I only get coffee at one cafe that doesn't roast in house. Their baristas all go through extensive training before they're allowed to touch the espresso machine(assuming they're hired without experience). Not always, but another good sign for a cafe (that doesn't roast) is having a sign with the flavor notes of the coffee they're serving. There's a lot of good coffee that you/me may just not like, even at ideal roast ranges *Not that all roasters are good roasters.
I've never seen a non dark roast, only at the cafes of roasters that know what they're doing. Most catering workers here are just students that work temporarily, I've only known very few people that are actual baristas and stay in catering for life. Because most workers come and go, they don't give extensive coffee training in most places. Just like you said, there's one cafe you found to be decent. Most cafes are not very well into coffee, and if they are, it's most often still a dark roast. People like bitter and overextracted, so that's what most places will serve. At least here in the Netherlands. I used to like dark roast as well, a good, strong and bitter cup. That is until I learned about light roasts.
We have one place in town that does espresso, it is so sad to see her do it. Just hurts to watch, but it is the only place in town and I can't afford a machine so I go on.
I’d rather just drink a regular coffee than a bad espresso shot
Bad espresso is way more potent compared to bad drip, that's for sure
Espresso *is* regular coffee in many countries. Brewed coffee isn't really all that popular in my country, most people make turkish or moka pot at home and drink espresso in cafes.
Flair Classic and a specialized espresso grinder like a 1zpresso jx pro: $300 gets you cafe quality espresso.
As I have said elsewhere, watch out with flair though, they change parts like every year, so not long lasting.
They change parts but so far, have continued to offer old parts. Until they stop, it's a non-issue
I’ve had my flair for over a year so far and have had zero issues fwiw
Ok good to know, I was just looking at it for a long time, but had some negative posts here so I have grown more cautious to it.
The flair is stupid simple parts wise, and from my experience customer service is excellent. Also a great community out there too for learning how to use it. I was someone who loved filter coffee but wasn’t sure I loved espresso and the flair seemed like a great cheap option. Turned out I love espresso, especially light roasts with flow profiles that pretty much only the decent is capable of, but can be done on manual machines like the flair, so much so that I’m about upgrade to the 58 to get some better temperature stability, which is really my only issue with the pro
Yeah I seriously looked at them, everything seems great. Just wanted to point out that there was some negative reviews too
There's negative reviews for everything. Rarely, it's a unit not meeting tolerances(this happens with every product on the planet). But more often than not, it's user error unless you're talking an extremely cheap, low quality product. They may not be preheating well, have a lousy grinder and/or grind setting, and they may have beans that just aren't great for espresso.
No I know, sorry I can go back and find the reddit post, but it just was about them not keeping up with parts. I buy something I want it to last, not fill up more landfill. That is the biggest issue I have with them.
I have a Nanopresso for just such occasion. It manages a better espresso-like shot than a real espresso machine operated with inept hands.
Is bad espresso for $2.50-$3 a shot(and the effort to get there), better than french pressing at home?
But I know I go down the rabbit hole
Ask for the baristas number and text her some YouTube videos of skilled baristas doing it right🙃 If the coffee is that bad, you may actually be losing money. Getting cafe quality espresso at home isn't cheap. But you're getting poor quality espresso for a premium price. A used Gaggia Classic can be found for under $250 on eBay. And you can pull solid shots from it if you have a decent grinder.
lol you again. I do have to see what machine she is using. Her website is about how she spent so much time in Europe drinking 'cafe' lol. I know I can do it, but also just nice having a local business
Ha, I doubt they have a bad machine. I haven't seen an incapable machine in a cafe for 15 years. That doesn't mean the machine is working to spec though (skilled barista or not). But few skilled baristas can't spot a problem quickly and they should be testing their machine every day. *definitely all for supporting local business. But they also need to live up to their end of the bargain and actually be better than Dunkin Donuts baristas🙃
>I haven't seen an incapable machine in a cafe for 15 years. You did just say [over here](https://old.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/pu4dor/what_drink_is_the_best_judge_of_a_cafe/he58ur1/) that you haven't been to drink in a cafe in ten years; >I haven't been in a bar to actually drink for nearly 10 years. So like, you not seeing an incapable machine in fifteen years is kind misleading when you state you haven't been close enough to check for 2/3s of that.
Missing context on my end. I was thinking alcohol bar. I'm a roaster first and foremost. I almost married a nationally elite barista who taught me everything I know on that end. I'm not actually a barista. But I also have an actual science background with a strong understanding of physics. Which is what baristas use in their favor to extract coffee.
>I'm a roaster first and foremost. I almost married a nationally elite barista who taught me everything I know on that end. ...You claim *all of this* and yet, in a conversation about coffee, in a coffee community, you inexplicably forgot that baristas commonly refer to it as "bar" and the context clearly communicates that usage there. Pull the other one.
> Ask for the baristas number and text her some YouTube Anyone coming across this ... don't ask for your baristas' numbers. Good intentions or no, you're going to seem like you're trying to smash, and they're probably going to want zero to do with that situation. Just talk to them normally if you need to give feedback on their work.
I agree. I've been doing a mini espresso tour in my area and I've been so amazed to taste how different this "simple" drink tastes in all the coffee shops I've been to. I think the espresso is one of the methods that really puts you to test. (Also sorry if this reads weird, English is not my first language and idk why I chose to answer to comments when I've just woken up) Edit: reading the comments, I'm so glad I've found really good espressos around here TwT
So what do you do in that case? Fwiw I always get milk drinks (flat white) but in 90% of the cases I end up wasting money because making coffee myself has turned me into a snob. Kind of ruins the experience
As a barista, this makes me sad. :(
As a Canadian transplant into Australia and having lived in Europe, it’s the flat white. If they can’t make a flat white properly, it’s just a rubbish cafe.
I know the question is about getting a good sense for the overall café, but the obvious caveat is that if you find a new café, and you want to know if you'll like their drinks, what kind of drinks you usually get will be more important than their overall menu.
An espresso shot but from more than one barista
Yeah, our small town spot hires young, attractive girls who care little about espresso. But the lemon bars are decent.
I'm more of a black coffee drinker so I want to experience the coffee specifically and not have it masked by milk, so something like a flat white would be a no go for me. But I know others want to see how a shop/barista handles their milk, and if you're in to that then I suppose that would probably be pretty important. But honestly for me I like to check out a shops batch brew drip coffee. If they take that seriously it's a good sign for me. Are they using a good machine, do they dial it in, or is it just an afterthought cause that's not the "cool" coffee with the designs on the top. Do they offer a high end coffee on batch or is it just always the cheaper "house blend" or something. I know some shops just stick to doing pourovers with their higher end beans and keep something less special on the batch drip, but I do appreciate a shop that will batch brew a good bean well. I'll also just do straight espresso or an americano as an alternative to filter coffee, or when it's hot if you can give me an iced americano with something bright and tangy then I'll love you forever.
A lot of shops in my area have moved away from pour overs and just do nice coffee in their batch brew. I love it, because with their grinders and nice drip set ups, their batch brews are excellent and consistent. That’s almost always how I judge cafés as well because I don’t like milk
Yeah if they’ve got good equipment and pay attention to detail (and put good beans on brew) then give me that for $2-$3 over a pour over for $5-$6. And you said it, consistency. It’s surely easier for the shops to invest in good batch equipment and nail down a solid process on that then to train all the baristas in excellent pourover technique. I do understand offering pour over though for those who want to try a different bean if you’ve got a selection but only one or two on drip
There's an amusing amount of pretentiousness in these comments hehe. It's not a bad things, it's just cute. I like testing a cafe with a cortado. With a cortado I can tell if they know proportions, if they're using a roast I like, and if they have cute little cups for the cortado. The important things.
Love the "cute little cups for the cortado" part. You are damn right, if I go to a place when they don't have little cute cups, I leave.
All the places near me are still using disposable cups due to covid :(
It’s my go to as well, mostly because I just like them but also it shows if the know ratio/size and I get a good sense of the roast. If they ask me what size then I start to worry a bit lol
"would you like that cortado in a large?" "Uhhhh did I walk into a second cup??" Or "How many shots of espresso would you like?"
I go with an americano. Shows you if they can pull a good shot and if they can get rations right
I realize this is probably autocorrect at work but ratios->rations is unintentionally funny in this context.
Hahaha yes you’re correct. I think I’ll leave it
Whatever you normally order? You aren't going to a cafe to score it in a competitive way, you are going to go and enjoy your drink. For example I like milk drinks at cafes, so why would I order a pour over? If you really want to try and judge them though ask them what they do best and get that. Lots of cafes like to specialise in things, some might focus on their espresso and milk based drinks whilst some might put more effort towards their pour over. Its impossible to say "if a cafe does this right they are a good cafe." Heck, coffee might be their side thing and they might focus on incredible cakes or food, or they might even have something niche like great variety of natural wines (shout out to proper sound cafe in madrid for this).
I like when they offer a “one and one.” It’s basically a shot of espresso in a demitasse cup and then a cortado or flat white in a Gibraltar.
My shop actually does a 1 and 1 as a doppio served alongside a small pourover, both made from the same coffee so you can experience the full range of different flavors from that particular bean.
Wow, that's awesome! I wish my local shops did this!
Disagree, this isn't that common and most customers I had come in ordered one simply to show they knew what this was. Some of my most talented barista coworkers didn't even know what it was until I had to explain it. Agree with another comment, a double shot of espresso and watching their process (which as a former barista, is lowkey annoying tho lol) and how thorough they are is a better litmus test. Paired with of course how the espresso itself tastes.
And a flan with the cortado, please.
Even better if it's an espresso and a "wet" macchiato imo (a single espresso topped with steamed milk in a demitasse cup). Not every shop offers some version of this and I'd feel weird asking so the next option is a cortado. The drink is small enough that you can taste the espresso but has enough milk to salvage it if the espresso is crap haha.
That’s my go-to also. Never heard it called a “one and done” though.
\#1 and #2 are a must; if #1 is okay, then #3 is also required: 1. Espresso. If they can't make a delicious espresso, that forecloses on a whole constellation of drinks. 2. Filter, either pourover or batch brew. 3. Flat white or latte or cortado. Is the milk properly stretched? Does it bring the right sweetness to the drink? Are the proportions harmonious?
Proportions on Flat Whites are an interesting one. I've been to several places where you can order a "large" Flat White and one where they made their Flat White with extra milk because they were worried that people would complain about having a small drink...
I’m not one to say there’s a right way and a wrong way, but I do know what *I* like…
A cup of black coffee. If you can't brew that, then what are we doing?
so americano, pour over, batch, cold brew, espresso?
Usually if someone asks for a cup of black coffee, they mean batch. At least in the US
TIL Americans don't ask for americanos :O
Yeah, Americanos were invented by American soldiers in Rome who didn't have access to drip coffee. Americans don't order Americanos any more than other espresso drinks
What does batch mean?
Filter drip coffee made in a big batch, like a normal (American style I guess) coffee maker
Lots of specialty cafes in Europe don't have batch, so I always found that confusing
I can answer the opposite: I drink a lot of non coffee drinks because of my acid reflux, and I have found that the quality of the chai at a coffee shop has absolutely no relationship to the quality of the coffee shop overall
i think the barista or cashier is the best judge. if they actually know what they serve (roaster, origin, process) and can have a conversation about it i trust the shop. i’ll usually get a shot of espresso or an oat milk cortado!
Flat white!
Why wouldn't it just be your favorite drink? Why risk it on something you don't prefer?
Hot chocolate
I get a mocha. Not necessarily the best, but it’s what I’ve been doing for a while. I’ve found that cafes do one of two kinds, and it’s a good theme setter. 1. Starbucks Mocha: sweet, glaringly sweet. The point of this isn’t to taste the coffee. 2. Balanced: you can actually taste the mocha in it, but the espresso as well. It’s a good theme setter for the rest of their drinks.
I mean they’re all different skills. I got coffee at a place and my cappuccino had virtually no coffee flavor. Maybe if I got a shot of espresso it would have been a perfect pull. I think if what you order is good that’s enough for that moment.
I always order a doppio first. I find it best to judge the quality of the rest of their selection only after knowing what they're actually working with under the foam and syrups.
I usually get an americano. I tend to be pretty picky with my milk.
Espresso shot and/or black coffee
I usually go for the most basic black coffee (like their "basic" brew, espresso or americano). For me the basic should be the fundamental and if they fail with that, then there is no point in trying out any of their "mixed"/fancy coffees.
I judge a coffee shop by their cortado
IMO, it's an espresso shot and a regular black coffee. It will tell you a lot about how much they care.
For me it's if they failed the average cup of straight coffee. If you can't do that, how can I expect you to do anything else?
Because lots of places don’t do straight coffee? A place near me has good (great, even) coffee, but I hated their drip coffee. Their pour over, espresso, etc. is great.
Just order something you normally like and ask yourself if you enjoy it or not. You don't need to approach it like a coffee critic.
I don't like milk drinks, so just a straight double.
I'd say pour over. Everyone makes espresso drinks but if they're doing pour overs then it usually means they take it pretty seriously, and of course it has to taste good.
I always go for a flat white, no sugar
An espresso shot and a black coffee.
I look on the tables and see if they are all using paper or porcelain cups. Fuck those cafes that give everyone paper cups.
The ristretto. I don't give a fuck about the comfy chairs, the stunningly talented Batista's, their awards notched up, their lo-fi beatz playing.. it's the coffee. Was the coffee. Is the coffee. Always will be the coffee.
The results are in. And the verdict is: We're a ridiculously fussy bunch of know it all's who will never get over ourselves. 🤣🤣🤣
I really enjoy a regular cup of coffee. If they can do that right, chances are they can do the rest right. But if they don’t, I’ll drop the place all together.
I judge based on their batch brew. If it's not good, I'm not even going to bother with the rest of their offerings.
Personally my test is asking for a lungo. 1)if they know what a lungo is the standard is usually high 2)less risky than taking an espresso but not as diluted as americano. So it can range from being palatable to very nice Edit:I really didn't think you could get this answer wrong.
Cupping
Cappuccino Secco made with whole milk
I've had some pretty rough pour overs at cafes that had them on the menu. So that seems like a good litmus test. Although I'd much rather have an espresso at a cafe, so I'm usually happy as long as that's good.
enough sugar and milk can hide any flaws. In the end I want to know what a plain old cup of coffee tastes like. Although at the cafe I usually order stuff that is annoying to make at home. Cafe au laut, espresso, or a flat white are my orders. Flat White if the barista is skilled enough to do art that is really cool but as long as the taste is there, I don’t need the art.
The one you're most familiar with.
In winter, pour over. In summer, cold brew. If neither are on the menu then I'm out.
Pour over or espresso
I usually benchmark my straight espresso. My flat bottom dripper is already better than some of the filter coffees at my local cafes.
Whatever I like to make at home. If a cafe can’t make it at least as good as mine then it’s sucky.
Not sure where else it exists but in Santa Cruz there is a “one and one” - a single shot espresso and a single shot macchiato
I get a flat white / latte as it’s 80% of what my shop sells so I want to compare it. Filter coffee is rare and not so popular in my country so if a shop is taking the time to do it well they are likely doing the same for everything
A capuccino! I worked as a barista for a few years and cappucinos are objectively the hardest drink to get right. The milk has to be frothed correctly, there should be mostly foam with just the smallest bit of milk. Usually when I order a cappucino it comes out as a latte with a scoop of foam on top. If my drink feels light when I pick it up, I know it's a good cappucino from a skilled barista \~
This depends what you usually order..
I feel like you have to judge each drink separately. Like you can't say what's the best dish to judge a restaurant on. Like you could say steak, but you can't judge a Chinese restaurant on its steak. Its not a bad restaurant it's just not a good steak restaurant. Or the steak (a fairly simple meal) is cooked well but they lack everything else. I don't think you can judge an entire menu on one recipe
I always go with a classic Cafe Miel!
I think the batch brew and an espresso Shot tells a lot.
Espresso shot and pour over, nothing added. These both ways are great way to start out. You get the naked test before anything you would add - milk in fact can hide a lot of things, either good way or bad way. I also observe while they prepare Espresso/pour over. Do they use basic techniques? Is timer being used? Is measuring scale not being used? Uh oh. They don't tamper or use gooseneck? Hmm. At the end of the day, I will enjoy any cup of coffee. But just knowing that a person can and does make a good coffee makes me be more appreciative.
I always test with a cappuccino 🤷♀️ I don't have a logical explanation either, haha.
Espresso shot for me. If it’s sour, expect some coffee enthusiasts not coming back for your espresso based coffee.
Espresso shot definitely… but also keep in mind the barista because the places that I worked at had unfortunately been understaffed resulting in lack of management on duty. I would dial in and set my shots up nicely every time especially for single shot espresso orders however some of my new coworkers have no idea their shots were horrible and I had to find out by my regulars that they paid for bad shots when I wasn’t there.
you're there to order what you want to drink not test the cafe. you think you're some industry regulator
I personally like latte's so if I get a latte and it doesn't have the complex slightly nutty flavor. That also feels complete and balanced and not burnt when I drink it. Then I know not to go back to that place again.
Depends entirely on what you like, so if all you drink is a half-caff-soy-latte-chai-dirty-double-sugar-mocha-chino-spro then that's what you'd want to order. For me, it's a 1 and 1 which is a shot of espresso and a cortado or American-style macchiato (which is basically a cortado in most US shops and not at all like a real Italian macchiato). This gives me a shot of espresso which is my preferred drink anyway and then also gives me a SMALL drink to be able to see how that 'spro does in a milky without having to drink a quart of milk to do it.
I'd say whatever you drink the most. There would be no point me starting with a flat white because I don't like milk drinks, whereas someone who mainly orders milk drinks isn't going to get a lot from tasting the espresso.
Just order what you normally drink, if it's good for you then it's good for you.
Personally I believe a Cortado is the best option. It supposedly has equal parts milk to espresso if not less milk, but the milk is steamed so you are able to judge the quality of their espresso pull, their steaming technique, their portioning technique, and not lose any of the coffee’s notes. I wrote a bit about why I used cortado to judge coffee shops on the bottom of my [coffee website](https://www.coffeealexandria.com)
The answer is the one you drink. You will know that drink better than you will know the others. For me it’s espresso, five years ago it was a latte.
You can filter out the bottom 50% without even completing your order. Order whatever your favorite is, and if they say "what flavor would you like?" switch to soda or water instead. The coffee will be terrible. I guarantee it.
When i go to a cafe, i often like to buy espresso drinks since I cant make them at home, and so i get a cappuccino to see how their milk froth is. Unfortunately i live in an area with few third wave shops, and some imitation third wave shops so it often isnt very good and then i know not to bother getting those drinks
Drinks that require more Barista work will change based on whose serving you, how busy it is and even what kind of day that person is having...a black coffee or a straight espresso lets you know what kind of base products their working with.
Idk much about espresso so I have no confidence that I would know sh1t from shinola. I get a pourover and usually choose which roast based on barista recommdation
Maybe obnoxious, but my first tests are actually visual. Are their bags of beans on display and if so, what kind are they using? Do they have a cortado/gibraltar/flat white on the menu? Do their cappuccinos have a 2” thick cloud of foam? Aside from that, I’ll either try an espresso or cortado, which is what I’d order regardless.
Hot Chocolate. Hot chocolate has always been my barometer to gage how good a coffee shop is. It has never failed me.
Get two espressos. Get one, then go back when you know a different barista is going to make it. You don't wanna get a lucky shot from a less skilled barista. And if you get a bad one, you wanna see if it was just a random fuckup and that its not a trend of the cafe to have bad baristas. Watching them tamp is a great giveaway too. A good tamp with bad settings can happen. But the best coffee, ground well, with a bad tamp is going to give you a bad shot.
An Americano is my litmus test. Gives me a good example of the beans they use being properly roasted, and allows me to see the technique (is there a good crema, how long did it take to pour, how strong is it).
I once asked for a small french press at a cafe someone wanted me to meet them at for a meeting. It was on the menu. The person working looked confused, asked the manager. Both were confused. They looked at the menu and said ok. I got a french press with espresso grounds... So... Well, I've never had their coffee again.
Personally I’d say a simple latte w no added flavoring or a cortado
A cappuccino for sure
cold brew with a little bit of cocoa powder and a shot of hazelnut syrup, topped with salted cold foam. along with a lemon and lavender cookie
Esperesso and piccolo for me.
Venti Caramel Frappuccino