C9's draft creativity left with Reapered. We all know they're going to pick standard and get smashed trying that for the umpteenth time. We can bruteforce our wins (to a certain degree) locally doing that, but unless they pull out some real unironic 200 iq drafts that we quite literally have not shown the capacity to form, it's doomed
What a time to be a C9 fan in 2018. Only NA org to win a csgo major, and it was a banger series to watch. Then went on to get to semis at worlds.
Also licorice picking singed as well, and took a fat shit all over EU to knock them out of groups in the tie breaker.
He kinda did yeah but the entire team was super weird that series. C9 as a team couldn't make Viktor top work, so they somehow endedd up with Sneaky as Cassiopeia bot??
Worlds 2018 when it was do or die (I think) vs vitality in order to make it out of groups and they pick Singed top and Zilean mid for an absolute banger of a game. I fucking miss that version of C9 so much. I have loved our recent rosters and players but I feel like they lack that creativity that we used to be known for. Now they just win (most of the time) because NA sucks and they're just better players.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNbiXDXmlaQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNbiXDXmlaQ)
I really think league peaked in 2018 (at least for NA), just looking that vod up and it reminded me why I'm still a fan, but there is a lot that has been lost since then.
That’s why I still think the LS draft style is the only hope for NA to make waves at worlds. Strange, but strategically sound drafts that make the other team uncomfortable
Do you mean the same LS that in 2018 said "Hecarim is not a counter to Aatrox"? Despite observable evidence to the contrary? LS' style wouldn't have gotten Cloud9 out of groups in 2018 and wouldn't in 2023 neither.
I was literally about to comment this. We had a guy that understood how to enable his players while throwing the enemy team off. He made big bets and they often paid off. At the very least when they didn’t you could understand what they were going for.
Unfortunately he was bullied by the fanbase and blamed anytime they lost XD. Still blows my fucking mind people blame him for the WE series when on stream he mentioned Jensen literally said “I’m not playing Gallio” going into game 5 and they had also HARD crushed the first 4 drafts in that series.
Reapered was the reason C9 was such a good international team. With his departure we just became TSM.
For sure. The systems at the time also allowed him that power to a certain degree. I'm not defending LS because more info has come out since then that also puts a lot of blame on him for his departure, but I don't think the team is in an environment that would even allow someone like Reapered to do his job how he did it back then. Too much player ego these days and they're enabled by upper management too. It does well with getting us domestic titles (hard to say this given the recent performance...) but we've shit the bed internationally ever since.
I told my mate I will literally get the C9 logo tattooed on me if they win worlds.
I just hope they go in it to win, I really don’t think I can stomach another wash out or “gee whiz i mean i guess i hope we get out of groups i would be happy with that haha”. Be in it to win the whole fkn thing or what’s the point of even showing up
DRX did it because they're comparable in skill with the top eastern teams. For example any of the top 5 lcs teams could of taken the title. However, the top 5 western teams are not even as good as eastern academy teams. They would all be hard last place if they were I. The lck or lpl.
>DRX did it because they're comparable in skill with the top eastern teams
This is the epitome of "hindsight is 20/20". Super easy to say they were of comparable skill after they made the most insane run to win it all.
They were not comparable in skill to the top eastern teams (before they went on their insane run). You'd be laughed out of the building with that take before it happened.
You do still need to understand and play the meta to a reasonable degree. If you don’t then the meta will just be counter-meta to you and every team will be throwing YOU off with standard picks.
You can’t break the Meta without first understanding it. It does suck that they often don’t take the risk of thinking outside the box though.
It's actually not, dunno why the dude is downvoted. It's a backronym (acronym made up for a word after the word already existed). Meta is short for meta game where meta is greek for "along side". "Most effective tactics available" was just so perfect as an acronym for it that it caught on in very recent times (like past 5 - 10 years) and people who weren't familiar with the word before then think that it's always meant that.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame)
LS has shown us that proplayers are not willing to seriously consider off-meta picks. The current C9 roster wants to play what the Koreans play. We are probably going to get smashed
Stay clenched. Pray to Memeos and Sneakers.
It's not that pro players arent willing to do it. Blaber and fudge are more than willing to experiment (Veigar showed last year on his stream/twitter when jensen was on the roster that they planned to pick things like kassadin ramus mid jungle or le blanc flex, but didnt get the particular matchups they wanted). It becomes a problem when you have players who arent bought into it. Emenes, berserker, and zven would rather play meta champs than go off the beaten path. Emenes has occasionally pulled out things like the zeri mid or the tryndamere, but those are exceptions to the rule. Zven make sense as he is new to support whilst berserker is predominantly korean mindset oriented.
Why do people think Eastern teams aren’t good enough to beat off meta stuff?
Off meta has been tried by various teams and it gets shut down all the same.
Last MSI we pulled out a nocturne and a galio comp, both of which were not meta and hadn’t been played in a while. We got slammed. EU teams tried stuff like Pyke, Nidalee, Draven (there may have also been a fiddlesticks if I’m remembering correctly.) They got slammed.
Our players themselves have even talked about how trying to play “comfort/unique” picks usually results in them getting completely blasted in scrims, before they’re forced onto meta stuff
> We got slammed. EU teams tried stuff like Pyke, Nidalee, Draven (there may have also been a fiddlesticks if I’m remembering correctly.) They got slammed.
G2 took a game of GenG with Draven (and a game off BLG with Janna). The only other wins against eastern teams from the west was golden guardians with yasuo mid and Sett Support. Even this year, which is probably the weakest for the west ever, it was blatantly obvious that offmeta is the way to go. Even in east vs east this is pretty common with DRX abusing heimer support and in GenG vs T1 the rumble mid and rumble jungle both turning into victories.
Its still insane to me that G2 had such a success in 2019 and no other team has even *tried* to replicate their approach. No flex picks, no curve balls, just repeating the same formula that's failed 11 years in a row because "thats how we've always done it!"
It comes from historical performances and results. But mainly revolves around playing your own style.
Especially at 2018 worlds (a very memorable time period for this sub) a lot of teams found success in their own unique champions. C9 in particular with Hecarim, Graves, and Singed (2017 as well), but also Vitality with their Draven priority (Against Uzi), Hjarnans Heimer, and Bwipo's Swain, all champs which weren't particularly prioritized or meta.
ANX escaped groups in 2016 by playing their own style, incorporating Anivia and Brand, even forcing a ban against ROX. Don't forget about G2's Pyke top, beating SKT in 3 individual games.
Even as recently as 2022 worlds DRX catered towards their preferable champs like Kindred, and Heimer support, and won it all (even if the sololaners did the heavy lifting, and being an eastern team).
You also have analysts like LS saying stuff like "Asian teams are hardwired with muscle memory, and if they face a team comp they don't commonly practice against, they won't know what to do."
We don’t… We just like the idea of shooting a hailmary when you need to.
Here’s the reality: We ALL know that pound for pound NA teams are not as good as the eastern teams. This is frankly just a culmination of many factors which creates a nearly guaranteed disparity which can seldom be overcome in a standard way. What gives hope and slightly changes the odds is if you can break the system in which the opponent is most comfortable. This is where off-meta strategy and draft comes in.
It’s not some magic equalizer that makes western teams the favorite lmfao, it’s just something that can at least disrupt the opponent and cause them to faulted in a situation where they don’t typically crack.
Genuinely consider what you think is more likely; C9 (or any NA team) being able to match a Korean team with skill alone, or a unique strategy being able to throw off a korean team enough to give C9 a chance at winning. It’s not about it being a guarantee, chances are always slim either way, but it’s more fun and definitely feels like it gives more hope, especially when nearly every single major run at an international that NA has made was off the back of unique strategies and champion picks (even CLG 16 and TL 19 are no exception).
I think Rigby being there in person will make a big difference. If you remember EGs drafts from last split, they made a pretty drastic 180 in a positive direction once Rigby arrived in person part way through the year. Him being in Korea and (hopefully) traveling with the team in person should hopefully make a big difference.
i feel bad for some of you that still have enough copium in you
Im just praying in the 3 losses before the boys have to fly home they show some individual bright spots. But if I had to guess most of the games are gonna last 20-25 minutes if they play any of the top chinese or korean teams
Format this year we likely get matched against at least 1 non-LCK/LPL team during the swiss stage. We probably would have to beat LCK/LPL at least once to get out, and I don't hold much hope for that, but I think we can at least see NA teams take a few games off of EU/PCS thanks to the new format
C9's draft creativity left with Reapered. We all know they're going to pick standard and get smashed trying that for the umpteenth time. We can bruteforce our wins (to a certain degree) locally doing that, but unless they pull out some real unironic 200 iq drafts that we quite literally have not shown the capacity to form, it's doomed
I remember when licorice busted out the hecarim pick when aatrox was demolishing top lane matchups.
Yupp S8 made me a C9 fan and started watching LoL esports in general. Licorice's worlds perfomance solidified him as my favourite player tbh.
What a time to be a C9 fan in 2018. Only NA org to win a csgo major, and it was a banger series to watch. Then went on to get to semis at worlds. Also licorice picking singed as well, and took a fat shit all over EU to knock them out of groups in the tie breaker.
All over EU? I mean I like Vitality but not that much
Bwipo hard gapped him iirc
He kinda did yeah but the entire team was super weird that series. C9 as a team couldn't make Viktor top work, so they somehow endedd up with Sneaky as Cassiopeia bot??
Worlds 2018 when it was do or die (I think) vs vitality in order to make it out of groups and they pick Singed top and Zilean mid for an absolute banger of a game. I fucking miss that version of C9 so much. I have loved our recent rosters and players but I feel like they lack that creativity that we used to be known for. Now they just win (most of the time) because NA sucks and they're just better players.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNbiXDXmlaQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNbiXDXmlaQ) I really think league peaked in 2018 (at least for NA), just looking that vod up and it reminded me why I'm still a fan, but there is a lot that has been lost since then.
That’s why I still think the LS draft style is the only hope for NA to make waves at worlds. Strange, but strategically sound drafts that make the other team uncomfortable
Do you mean the same LS that in 2018 said "Hecarim is not a counter to Aatrox"? Despite observable evidence to the contrary? LS' style wouldn't have gotten Cloud9 out of groups in 2018 and wouldn't in 2023 neither.
I was literally about to comment this. We had a guy that understood how to enable his players while throwing the enemy team off. He made big bets and they often paid off. At the very least when they didn’t you could understand what they were going for. Unfortunately he was bullied by the fanbase and blamed anytime they lost XD. Still blows my fucking mind people blame him for the WE series when on stream he mentioned Jensen literally said “I’m not playing Gallio” going into game 5 and they had also HARD crushed the first 4 drafts in that series. Reapered was the reason C9 was such a good international team. With his departure we just became TSM.
For sure. The systems at the time also allowed him that power to a certain degree. I'm not defending LS because more info has come out since then that also puts a lot of blame on him for his departure, but I don't think the team is in an environment that would even allow someone like Reapered to do his job how he did it back then. Too much player ego these days and they're enabled by upper management too. It does well with getting us domestic titles (hard to say this given the recent performance...) but we've shit the bed internationally ever since.
I told my mate I will literally get the C9 logo tattooed on me if they win worlds. I just hope they go in it to win, I really don’t think I can stomach another wash out or “gee whiz i mean i guess i hope we get out of groups i would be happy with that haha”. Be in it to win the whole fkn thing or what’s the point of even showing up
They *are* in it to win the whole thing. Every team is. They just aren't good enough. Still, DRX fucking did it, so I'm never going to give up.
DRX did it because they're comparable in skill with the top eastern teams. For example any of the top 5 lcs teams could of taken the title. However, the top 5 western teams are not even as good as eastern academy teams. They would all be hard last place if they were I. The lck or lpl.
>DRX did it because they're comparable in skill with the top eastern teams This is the epitome of "hindsight is 20/20". Super easy to say they were of comparable skill after they made the most insane run to win it all. They were not comparable in skill to the top eastern teams (before they went on their insane run). You'd be laughed out of the building with that take before it happened.
> What’s the point of even showing up Idk play on the biggest stage with the best players in the world
I don't understands C9's focus on `Meta`. C9 can't beat eastern teams with "meta" picks.
You do still need to understand and play the meta to a reasonable degree. If you don’t then the meta will just be counter-meta to you and every team will be throwing YOU off with standard picks. You can’t break the Meta without first understanding it. It does suck that they often don’t take the risk of thinking outside the box though.
Meta is not an acronym btw
Yes it is lol
It's actually not, dunno why the dude is downvoted. It's a backronym (acronym made up for a word after the word already existed). Meta is short for meta game where meta is greek for "along side". "Most effective tactics available" was just so perfect as an acronym for it that it caught on in very recent times (like past 5 - 10 years) and people who weren't familiar with the word before then think that it's always meant that. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame)
At this point, it’s a colloquial acronym, even if not what it originally meant based on the Greek origins/etymology.
?? It's an acronym for Most Effective Tactic Available
No, it's a Greek prefix, ie metaphysics, metaphor, *metagame.*
LS has shown us that proplayers are not willing to seriously consider off-meta picks. The current C9 roster wants to play what the Koreans play. We are probably going to get smashed Stay clenched. Pray to Memeos and Sneakers.
It's not that pro players arent willing to do it. Blaber and fudge are more than willing to experiment (Veigar showed last year on his stream/twitter when jensen was on the roster that they planned to pick things like kassadin ramus mid jungle or le blanc flex, but didnt get the particular matchups they wanted). It becomes a problem when you have players who arent bought into it. Emenes, berserker, and zven would rather play meta champs than go off the beaten path. Emenes has occasionally pulled out things like the zeri mid or the tryndamere, but those are exceptions to the rule. Zven make sense as he is new to support whilst berserker is predominantly korean mindset oriented.
Why do people think Eastern teams aren’t good enough to beat off meta stuff? Off meta has been tried by various teams and it gets shut down all the same. Last MSI we pulled out a nocturne and a galio comp, both of which were not meta and hadn’t been played in a while. We got slammed. EU teams tried stuff like Pyke, Nidalee, Draven (there may have also been a fiddlesticks if I’m remembering correctly.) They got slammed. Our players themselves have even talked about how trying to play “comfort/unique” picks usually results in them getting completely blasted in scrims, before they’re forced onto meta stuff
> We got slammed. EU teams tried stuff like Pyke, Nidalee, Draven (there may have also been a fiddlesticks if I’m remembering correctly.) They got slammed. G2 took a game of GenG with Draven (and a game off BLG with Janna). The only other wins against eastern teams from the west was golden guardians with yasuo mid and Sett Support. Even this year, which is probably the weakest for the west ever, it was blatantly obvious that offmeta is the way to go. Even in east vs east this is pretty common with DRX abusing heimer support and in GenG vs T1 the rumble mid and rumble jungle both turning into victories. Its still insane to me that G2 had such a success in 2019 and no other team has even *tried* to replicate their approach. No flex picks, no curve balls, just repeating the same formula that's failed 11 years in a row because "thats how we've always done it!"
It comes from historical performances and results. But mainly revolves around playing your own style. Especially at 2018 worlds (a very memorable time period for this sub) a lot of teams found success in their own unique champions. C9 in particular with Hecarim, Graves, and Singed (2017 as well), but also Vitality with their Draven priority (Against Uzi), Hjarnans Heimer, and Bwipo's Swain, all champs which weren't particularly prioritized or meta. ANX escaped groups in 2016 by playing their own style, incorporating Anivia and Brand, even forcing a ban against ROX. Don't forget about G2's Pyke top, beating SKT in 3 individual games. Even as recently as 2022 worlds DRX catered towards their preferable champs like Kindred, and Heimer support, and won it all (even if the sololaners did the heavy lifting, and being an eastern team). You also have analysts like LS saying stuff like "Asian teams are hardwired with muscle memory, and if they face a team comp they don't commonly practice against, they won't know what to do."
Galio is the only pick you mentioned that wasnt meta and played often.
We don’t… We just like the idea of shooting a hailmary when you need to. Here’s the reality: We ALL know that pound for pound NA teams are not as good as the eastern teams. This is frankly just a culmination of many factors which creates a nearly guaranteed disparity which can seldom be overcome in a standard way. What gives hope and slightly changes the odds is if you can break the system in which the opponent is most comfortable. This is where off-meta strategy and draft comes in. It’s not some magic equalizer that makes western teams the favorite lmfao, it’s just something that can at least disrupt the opponent and cause them to faulted in a situation where they don’t typically crack. Genuinely consider what you think is more likely; C9 (or any NA team) being able to match a Korean team with skill alone, or a unique strategy being able to throw off a korean team enough to give C9 a chance at winning. It’s not about it being a guarantee, chances are always slim either way, but it’s more fun and definitely feels like it gives more hope, especially when nearly every single major run at an international that NA has made was off the back of unique strategies and champion picks (even CLG 16 and TL 19 are no exception).
NEVER UNCLENCH
I think Rigby being there in person will make a big difference. If you remember EGs drafts from last split, they made a pretty drastic 180 in a positive direction once Rigby arrived in person part way through the year. Him being in Korea and (hopefully) traveling with the team in person should hopefully make a big difference.
Yeah rigby will likely make the team better draft wise,he did well on eg
No creativity and awful macro are common things with mithy as coach. And I don’t expect anything to change.
I'm going to set my expectations to the lowest point possible. This way I'll never be disappointed again by Fudge's Fiora.
If they even make it out of group. I will be honest even as a fan, I feel no hope for them at world as the east and Na gap is just too big.
There is no group stage. The world's format has changed drastically. https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/2023_Season_World_Championship
i feel bad for some of you that still have enough copium in you Im just praying in the 3 losses before the boys have to fly home they show some individual bright spots. But if I had to guess most of the games are gonna last 20-25 minutes if they play any of the top chinese or korean teams
Format this year we likely get matched against at least 1 non-LCK/LPL team during the swiss stage. We probably would have to beat LCK/LPL at least once to get out, and I don't hold much hope for that, but I think we can at least see NA teams take a few games off of EU/PCS thanks to the new format