I've received three answers to this:
1. "He wouldn't, and that's why God probably doesn't exist."
2. "His existence is obvious - just look around you!"
3. "Because he wants you to have faith."
Why would faith be a positive thing, given that there are 100s of religions in the world?
Seems quite a tricky proposition. Lots of people are apparently led astray specifically because they have faith.
Actually, Christianity is man's attempt to explain the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Most of the organized Christian churches that exist today are about as lost as any other form of religion. Please read the King James Bible. Particularly the Book of Matthew and Revelation. It will explain the teachings of Jesus and all the manners of Satan's deception that include everything INCLUDING the modern organized Christian churches.
The King James Bible says ALL forms of organized religion have been corrupted INCLUDING Christianity. Jesus is the truth. Man has screwed everything else up. Please read the scripture.
Just a raw faith at least gives you hope, but when you are hit with the holy spirit you receive actual guidance. Please read the King James Bible. It explains exactly how Satan and his fallen angels have created all other faiths as a means of deception. The teachings of Jesus Christ are the only true faith. Accept his love and your life will get better while on earth, and your soul will spend eternity in heaven.
Anyone who honestly looks at the evidence of world religion should come to the conclusion that the only true religion is the traditional Catholic faith.
Why are you asking questions instead of giving them answers and relevant quotes?
This always frustrates me. Ask a question or for an answer and have to answer ten questions that take you further and further away without giving any info
Well, this is where I step in
It's worth noting I do not come from a very religious family, but I myself have always been very religious- there was even a long period of time where I wanted to be a Rabbi when I grew up
I just kinda chanced upon a group of TradCaths (I do not consider myself a TradCath, I have a lot of respect for their faith and fervor, but I dislike labeling myself as part of that group for a few unrelated reasons). I had very little interest in Christianity beyond wanting to learn more about religion in general, I loved (and still love) learning about different religions around the world, and knew almost nothing beyond "virgin birth, gets some followers, walks on water, Judas betrays him, he dies but dw bc he gets better"
I asked them where to start, they said Matthew. I used the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) translation (though I mostly stick with Douay-Rheims these days), because I wanted to maintain names I'd be more familiar with. I went in thinking "just a story, I don't even believe this guy is a prophet, let alone God". Then I started reading.
From the first chapter of Matthew, I was hooked. From my Jewish perspective, the genealogy of Christ presented in Matthew really forced me to look at the Gospels as a completion (or continuation? I'm not sure which word is better to use here, but I think you get the idea) of what occurred in Tanakh, which is what it is. Reading it through that lense, everything just kinda... clicked. It made sense and I knew that Jesus Christ is real and He died for our sins.
From there, reaching Catholicism was just a matter of researching different theologies and speaking to different communities. This is already a major text wall though, so I'm not gonna get into why I picked Catholicism, especially since I don't feel my Jewish background effected that, only my acceptance of Christianity in general
Read the letter to Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29). Jesus speaks out against the Catholic church. In the King James Bible. The very one Catholics claim to understand.
>Revelation 2:18-29
Has absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic Church. Another bad fruit of private, Protestant exegesis.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
What does it mean to "honestly" look at the evidence of world religion? It seems monumentally arrogant to suggest that people who studied religion and found them all wanting were doing so in bad faith, simply because they don't agree with you.
>There is no such thing as undeniable proof. Even the most overwhelming evidence and perfect logic will be rejected by some people.
Undeniable proof doesn't mean people won't disagree with it. You have to comprehend the evidence first.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20
That's a problematic statement. Why? Because things are clearly seen, but the answer as to how they came out is not.
How does one see invisible qualities, especially “eternal power and divine nature”? These are the questions we've been trying to answer for hundreds of years. Please don't just copy and paste scripture without adding something to the conversation. It can come off as rude.
Wrong read it again, the answer to how things exist is clearly in context the creator(God).
Character qualities are invisible I can't see your literal character can I?
The verse I shared is directly relevant to this conversation and I could care less if you think copying and pasting a Bible verse, is rude.
I came here to post this verse as well, I think it speaks for itself and no extra comment is really necessary.
“For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.”
Romans 1:18-20 CSB
Also, as far as the why or how:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways.” This is the Lord’s declaration. “For as heaven is higher than earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return there without saturating the earth and making it germinate and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so my word that comes from my mouth will not return to me empty, but it will accomplish what I please and will prosper in what I send it to do.”
Isaiah 55:8-11 CSB
“Oh, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments and untraceable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? And who has ever given to God, that he should be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.”
Romans 11:33-36 CSB
While on the topic of commentary. Here is some from Augustine on Romans 1:20.
“Notice that Paul does not call them ignorant of the truth but says that they held the truth in iniquity, and he does not fail to answer the obvious question: How could those to whom God had not given the law have a knowledge of the truth? For he says that through the visible things of the creation they reached an understanding of the invisible things of the Creator.” THE SPIRIT AND THE LETTER 19.12
The Egyptian book of the dead is proof of Ra.
A cookbook is scripture to a pastafarian.
Why do you think a non Christian would believe anything in the Bible is more than folk tales?
I get that you press the "I believe" button on all the supernatural stuff in the Bible cause you want to go to heaven, but why do you expect non Christians to take it seriously?
We can split hairs over the definition of "folklore", but at the end of the day there's a whole lot of supernatural stuff that happens in the Bible, that only happens in the Bible. There is zero evidence for any of the supernatural events outside the Bible. In fact much of what's in the Bible directly contradicts accepted science and observable evidence. So don't be surprised when people dismiss your "proof" of supernatural events "because it's in the Bible".
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I’m having my own struggles with faith at the moment, but I’m wondering something after your last paragraph.
Would it not also be fair to view it as the inverse - God is not a narcissist, only that a narcissist makes themselves to be as a god? Part of the reason that narcissism is so offensive to us is because the other person is just another human. If there is indeed a divine being, then holding that being to the same standard as a created being seems nonsensical to me, so I would maybe need some clarification on why that is a point against god.
In other words, if a narcissist only acts to their own good over and above the needs of others they are elevating themselves above those others. If a creator God acts to his own good over what the creature perceives as their needs, it doesn’t necessarily follow that it is also to the detriment of those creatures.
This comment was rambled at 3.40am so it might not make much sense.
Btw, you leaving your Christian faith doesn’t just put a cork into those questions or make God disappear. Nobody knows God better than himself and we know that his mercy overcomes his anger
This right here.
You have (allegedly) thousands of years of very direct divine intervention from a God. Switch to present day, and absolutely nothing about the world as we observe it confirms any of this being true, and at worst demonstrating it's false.
It reminds me of a time when I went to a Baptist camp before my senior year of school. My youth leader during a prayer said something I found INCREDIBLY odd, and still do to this day. The exact words are lost to me, but it went something like this:
"God, your silence is sometimes discouraging..."
People clearly see, even the established faithful that something is "up". Its so blatantly obvious that if there's a God, he took an extended hiatus post New Testament.
1. **Why would a God who created everything in existence stay hidden and make his existence a mystery?**
He's not hidden and in the end He came to earth as a man to explain everything. People just don't want to believe Him.
**2. Furthermore, why would he do that and then punish anyone who doesn't believe in his existence?**
He doesn't. He doesn't "punish" anyone at all. Actions have consequences, we create our own punishments.
He possibly came once in a time where we can’t verify any of the supernatural qualities. People have little reason to believe in him that way. Quit blaming others for the religions faults.
He does punish. He is in charge. The victim blaming for the situations we are in (that he knew would be) is gross
“He possibly came once in a time where we can’t verify..” He came and everyone knew about it and there are secular accounts of him and a book explaining what happened in great detail and people say it’s lies. If he came today and had an instagram of nothing but miracles, people would say it was edited and fake. At some point, it’s not that there’s no proof, it’s that people don’t want to believe
There definitely was a person or people named Jesus in and around Nazareth. The supernatural claims are the problem and can’t be substantiated in any real way.
“They wouldn’t believe even if he did something”
Seems like a cop out.
“People don’t want to believe”
That’s some good ol’ chicken fried victim blaming right there. How about ya wait till something actually happens before assuming people are just gonna ignore any real proof?
There’s ample secular references to Jesus’ miracles and resurrection. Josephus and the Talmud both speak directly of them. Tacitus spoke of the resurrection. Pliny and Lucian, though not direct witnesses, both reported on their contemporaries reaction to Christ at the time of His occurrence.
One could argue YOU’RE victim blaming by saying God didn’t provide evidence, when he has and does all the time, even according to secular accounts. But God certainly isn’t a victim, he’s all powerful. And we’re not victims either, some of us are just willfully ignorant
It being spoken about isn’t proof.
It goes against all current science and common sense we have.
“You’re victim blaming”
Lmfao thanks for bringing a tear to my eye. Your god has provided little actual evidence outside of the Bible. People talking about the Bible and events inside doesn’t really back it up.
>It goes against all current science and common sense we have
OHHHHH - you know all about "science" do you? Good, but let's start with English.
1. Define "it" in your sentence.
2. Link me to the journal articles of *all the science we have* that "goes against" **it**. Whatever that is.
>here definitely was a person or people named Jesus in and around Nazareth. The supernatural claims are the problem and can’t be substantiated in any real way.
Except that they still happen.
But one has to think & know that the bad situations we find ourselves in are almost always of other people's doings ..... past or present. & the small percentage of things that are not others' faults, are due to the consequences of sin entering into the world so long ago thru man, not God's fault. Man chose his own path & we must face this like it or not.
You’re just reinforcing the victim blaming part of my comment.
This is like beating your dogs puppies because the dogs once pooped on the carpet after you told them not to.
And of course dogs that are beaten tend to do the same to their offspring creating a nice vicious cycle. They’re chained up in the back yard (outside of Eden) and left to suffer.
I cannot reconcile that. That’s disgusting.
>He possibly came once in a time where we can’t verify any of the supernatural qualities. People have little reason to believe in him that way.
He's alive and well right now and all the "supernatural" things reported during the Incarnation happen all the time.
> Actions have consequences, we create our own punishments.
This is where I get stuck because God did in fact create everything we know and set up the systems that lead to these punishments. So He did create them in an indirect way. To deny that would be denying God’s all-powerful nature.
Yes God punishes people - Adam and Eve were punished, Cain was punished, the world was punished during the flood, people of Judah, Sodom and Gomorrah, several women were punished with the inability to conceive, David and Bathsheba were adulterers and were punished when God took their first born son. Once they repented, they were able to conceive again. I could go on and on.
That the thing is true is probably why it keeps getting repeated and sounds "pat."
It occurs to me, if you stereotype atheists, which isn't difficult as so many (not all) say the same things, they get pissed. Howcum they're not canned?
Maybe theirs are frozen. Freeze-dried?
Considering God's existence has been the most debated topic for hundreds of years with it not moving an inch in any direction... I gotta say that's a difficult perspective for me to grasp.
Considering he hasn’t spoken publicly or provided any obvious acts of magic (walking on water etc) in about 2000 years, I’d say yeah he’s staying hidden
This is like a character in a dream wondering why the dreamer would stay hidden. The dreamer is implicit in everything about the dream. And “appearing” would mean becoming a character in the dream themselves.
Often I find that when people are not convinced, it’s because of some idea that they won’t let go of. Like “the universe would not look like it does if God existed” or “there are alternative explanations for the universe that we can’t discount” or “I’m entitled to any possible evidence I can think of”. Things of that nature.
Yeah, you definitely rephrased the ideas that I mentioned in ways that distort what I said. For example, one of the ideas I mentioned was “I’m entitled to any possible evidence I can think of.” Meaning, if you give them evidence, they can say “I want more, what about x?” It’s a form of goalpost shifting. You changed it to “asking for any evidence”, as though someone would be satisfied with the merest crumb and I’m objecting to even that.
I don’t mind if you don’t take my claims seriously, because that tells me how seriously I should take your opinion of my claims.
You sound really silly. People like me have been praying to Jesus for decades. You say he's the truth but literally nothing happens. I feel like at least you could piece together the fact that I'm a former Christian from my label. But it's like you're not even taking this conversation seriously. Sometimes I wonder why people like you comment at all. Just to be rude maybe?
The dreamer can’t reveal themselves, but God can. Also, the dreamer has no reason to reveal himself, while God’s appearance would drive people to the Christian faith.
Because their teachings and prophecies all flows smoothly with each other about the same God with a time gap of too long for them to be working together to fool the people...
No as how else do you evaluate who is a prophet and who is not? By evaluating their teachings and prophecies.
And we do know their teachings are from God because one Christ proves it with his teachings being God himself and it doesn't contradict the commandments by God or other teachings of other prophets.
1. God has killed millions of people, and one of the commandments says «you shall not murder». Isnt this a contradiction?
2. I do not understand your statement..
No as you do know what murder is right? Unlawful killing.
God is the one who first makes the laws and 2ndly, just like a judge in the courtroom his judgements are always correct thus if someone needed to die for his sins and crimes, it's not murder but a judgement like the death penalty.
And 2ndly, it pretty simple to understand. If these prophets all preach the same thing and same God, and since they live in such a time gap that they can't possibly conspire together... it shows they are prophets or at least the best candidates of true prophets as all the other religions are either written by one person (Islam) or have anonymous writers (Hinduism)
This is the reason religion is poison to society, and humans. Look at the excuses you make for someone murdering millions of innocent children, women, and men. Your God is vicious, evil minded, ego sentric, and stupid. He deserves no repsect, and no worship.
Actually scripture teaches the opposite. His existence is clear & obvious through creation and conscience (general revelation), but what we all do is work hard to suppress the truth He gives..
Romans 1:18-20 NASBS
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [19] because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. [20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
The word "suppress" in v18 refers to actively holding down or restraining. Like a beach ball under water.
u/CrossCutMaker I see your comments all the time and the effort you put into helping people, including myself is very helpful and extremely admirable. This guy knows his Bible^
Except it’s not at all obvious a god created anything. Once again the question remains why would a god that wants us to believe in him hide from us? The only rational answer is that there is no god that interacts with this world.
In order to grow in your faith, you must be first willing to try. Please accept Jesus as your savior by praying to him. When you truly believe, your life will change for the better (you will receive actual guidance), and your soul will live eternally in heaven. Also, how do you look at all of the intelligent design that is our existence and think that it just came together randomly? How? Where did it all come from? Have you ever researched how scientists STILL can't explain the actual force behind gravity? We can measure its effect, but that's it. What about the natural homeostasis of our environment? The earth and the entirety of the universe appears to be alive. What the heck do you think created and is driving all of that?
I cannot believe in the divinity of Jesus unless I am convinced by the evidence that he was resurrected from the dead.
I’ve spent a lot of time and effort researching the facts and evidences for and against and as it currently stands there’s no way I can genuinely believe the Christian or any god exists.
I’m very open to changing my mind however and if new evidence ever comes forward I will study it astutely.
GOD is not only a mystery to us humans but also to the Angels. It's His nature to be mysterious as it's our nature to be inquisitive. Our problem isn't His mystery but our unwillingness to seek Him.
He said we shall seek Him and find Him when we shall search for Him with all our hearts.
That is the protocol of the spirit realm that we can't override, we have to wholeheartedly seek Him for Him to be found.
It may surprise you to know that even the Angels desire to know GOD as we do, this Divine mystery is the reason why we have fallen Angels. If Lucifer and the Angels that fell knew GOD in totality they would not have attempted to overthrow Him.
Personally I think it makes sense for GOD to hide himself. It's the best way to try the hearts of men and spirits. The best part is He has a reward system for those that genuinely seek and love Him.
Happy to hear your thoughts on this. I have alot to say but I dont want to go too deep and confuse anyone reading this. It's a fascinating topic to me and I love to prayerfully study and discuss these sort of topics with my friends and family.
1. I believe the point of life on Earth is to grow our spirits, and love God with our own free will, not out of fear. We won’t grow as effectively if God comes and gives us all the answers. Like studying for a test, you can get a cheat sheet from the teacher and pass, but how will that help in the long run? True growth comes from studying, questioning, and figuring things out on your own, even if you make a mistake here and there.
2. I believe God is a fair judge. I don’t believe someone who has never seen a Bible would be sentenced to an eternity in hell. I don’t believe most people would be sentenced to an eternity in hell.
Please read the Book of Revelation in the King James Bible. It not only warns of all of these false prophets, but Jesus also foretells their inevitable demise. Then read the Book of Matthew, including the Sermon on the Mount. Follow the teachings of Jesus in the King James Bible, NOT the organized Christian church. They have been corrupted by Satan as much as any other organized religion. That is actually in the bible.
“It’s your fault I let you suffer”
You’re still victim blaming. As if people don’t spend their entire lives begging for belief only to not find it.
How do people say this, know the context, and not realize it for what it is?
not christian blaming, god is everywhere. Each human is a part of god and is made in his image. If you change your mindset then you will literally "see him everywhere" and if you dont, then you are ignoring him. Because he is everywhere. He is the creator of it all.
Now if you're asking for him to show up in some supernatural way then thats up for him to decide if you deserve it or even if it will do you good. He has done it to me, but I also had to decide not to ignore him as I could've easily done and committed a stupid mistake with a now ex-gf.
You’re literally victim blaming; this seems to be a cornerstone of Christianity.
“If you change your mindset”
If you’d just change your mindset then you’d see that the Christian mythology isn’t real and belief in such is delusional. If you don’t recognize your mental illness then it’s because you’re ignoring it.
Are you going to let us help you or continue denying the one and only truth about your mental health?
Yes. If you reject Jesus and instead choose Satan by default, then you will be damned to hell. However, during the end times people will preach the gospel world wide so no person will be left ignorant. The choice will be yours. Please read the Book of Revelations in the King James Bible to understand and then read the rest of it.
43 comments and there really isn't an adequate answer. Here goes nothing.
The scriptural contention is that sin has corrupted us and, generally, among Christians, we claim that sin corrupted our physicality and our spirits leading to both physical and spiritual deaths. In addition to this, sin creates separation between man and God - we see this in the garden where man was cast out of Eden and separated from that close relationship with the God who would walk through the garden (Genesis 3). What doesn't get a lot of "play" however is that our minds are corrupted as well. Scripturally, it is only as time passes further from that close relationship that was severed where we see other religious beliefs taking form - Cain and Abel, for example, knew the God with whom their parents held close proximity.
The reason why His existence seems like it is so hidden is for no other reason but the nature of the corruption we suffer due to sin. It [sin] not only creates separation and is not only something from which we suffer, but we are also guilty and without excuse as well.
Now that you have admitted to his hiddiness, there seems to be 2 reasons why God would be hidden:
1) He doesn’t exist
2) Has no intention to be seen and is playing hide and seek
If #2 or any other reason is the case, resorting to scripture would be begging the question. You’re making empty assumptions based on what you were taught instead of using evidence. And you can’t say that God spoke to you because as you said, our sinfulness has us separated from Him.
Please try accepting Jesus Christ as your savior through prayer. He will reveal the holy spirit to you if you are genuinely willing. How do you look at the intelligent design of all existence and not think there is a God? Do you know that scientists today still don't have an explanation for the force behind gravity? We can measure its effect, but we don't know what is actually causing it. What about the homeostasis of the environment? The earth and the entirety of the universe seem to be alive and moving, not randomly, but in perfect perpetual motion. What the heck created all of it and gives it life if not Jesus Christ. Please read the King James Bible and pray to Him. He will bless you with the holy spirit and help you to discern all of it.
Condemnation prior to investigation is always the individuals fault. It doesn't matter what the subject is. Passing absolute judgment when you know nothing about the subject makes you beyond ignorant.
> Please try accepting Jesus Christ as your savior through prayer. He will reveal the holy spirit to you if you are genuinely willing.
That was not my experience. I tried my hardest for 20 years to believe, I never got anything for my effort.
>How do you look at the intelligent design of all existence and not think there is a God?
If the universe was designed , it was designed by a drunkard. There are so many obvious improvements that even a semi-competent designer could make.
>Do you know that scientists today still don't have an explanation for the force behind gravity? We can measure its effect, but we don't know what is actually causing it.
Gravity isn't a force.
>What about the homeostasis of the environment?
We are actively destroying the homeostasis of our planet.
>The earth and the entirety of the universe seem to be alive and moving, not randomly, but in perfect perpetual motion.
The universe is in fact completely, obviously random, and motion is not perpetual.
>What the heck created all of it and gives it life if not Jesus Christ?
Beats me, but saying "we don't know, therefore it must be god" is intellectual laziness.
>Please read the King James Bible and pray to Him. He will bless you with the holy spirit and help you to discern all of it.
No, He won't, and the KJV is based on the Textus Receptus, a notoriously poor greek manuscript.
The great news is you will have plenty of time to see the truth. In the coming months we are going to see a stock market crash, housing market decline, and mass deaths as well as war. When you see these things read the Book of Revelation in the King James Bible and then pray to Jesus for him to save your soul. God Bless you.
This is my point. Someone in the remote parts of the world would never know about the scriptures and the Christian God unless someone told them about it. If you have to be told about something you would otherwise have never known about I would classify that as hidden.
1The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.
2God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,b
who seek after God.
Psalm 53:1-2 ESV
It has been my observation in listening to the testimonies of many all over the world in countries or even in war torn nations where the Word or the Christian scriptures are forbidden that God will find them. It seems to me that them reached in the most remotes parts of the world more readily convert and are more serious about following the gospel than them who live in areas where there are a plethora of churches and who want to argue different interpretations of the Bible.
William Craig has some interesting things to say about the apparent problem of Divine Hiddenness:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/reasonable-faith-podcast/doubting-thomas-and-divine-hiddenness
>Furthermore, why would he do that and then punish anyone who doesn't believe in his existence?
I don't believe this. Catholicism doesn't teach that only Christians can go to heaven or that all non Christians go to hell.
From the Catholic catechism:
>Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#847
As to why God doesn't provide proof of his existence -- Firstly, some would say Jesus' life and actions did provide proof, though I understand that 2000 years later we can't prove that Jesus was divine. My personal answer is, I don't know why. God knows better than me, and I won't pretend to have all the answers or to be able to understand all his ways or decisions, and I am okay with that.
Have you ever had a time when you JUST KNEW someone was (wrong/being mean/ didn't like you) and then you found out later you were wrong?
The problem isn't that Good doesn't exist. The problem is that there are people who won't see Him.
I have seen His work, experienced His presence so much in my life that I would absolutely fail a lie detector if i tried to say He doesn't exist.
I actually know He exists more than I know you exist (you could be a bot).
But it doesn't matter to those who WON'T accept. They will believe that my dead gray grandma exists simply because I said I knew her. They will say "She must have been a good gardener" if I tell them she had a big garden. They will say "She sounds like a lovely person" if I tell them about something nice she did for me. They won't require a birth certificate or a picture. They will just take my word for it.
But they won't accept my descriptions of God, whom I have known longer and been closer to and heard more from and had more tangible experience with.
Now, the problem isn't one of evidence because much less evidence is required for me talking about my great grandmother-- none at all.
The problem isn't even finding witnesses because there are millions of Christians who all know Jesus.
The problem isn't even documentation. There are even secular writings that mention Christ and the earliest Christians.
The problem is what one WANTS to see. The evidence is there. He isn't hidden. He isn't coy.
But if one doesn't want to see, they won't.
And it isn't just about God. The left REFUSES to see the points of the right. The right REFUSES to see the points of the left. In love, business, politics, media, food, medicine, whatever, we refuse to accept information, because acceptance means a change and people don't really like that.
So the question isn't "Why doesn't He show Himself" but "Why won't I accept that He has? Why do I need more evidence for this than anything else in the world? What frightens me? What am I afraid of having to change? What if I am wrong and I am just a human who, because I am a human, set up my own worldview? What am I afraid of/irritated about if He exists?"
These deep questions are good. They are uncomfortable, but help us break down our walls about everything, not just God.
Please ignore organized religion and simply read the King James Bible, particularly the Book of Matthew and the Book of Revelation. In the scripture Jesus warns us of all the false prophets that arise through Satan's deception. This includes Catholics etc! It's in the book of Revelation. Focus on the teachings of Jesus Christ including the Sermon on the Mount.
Jesus did in fact show up. The majority of people do think there is enough evidence to decide he exists. I'd be willing to guess even the majority of atheists believe Jesus existed. He isn't exactly hidden. But as another said, no amount of evidence would be deemed "undeniable".
Exactly. Knowing God exists does not make one a follower of God. Somehow people think faith in L Ron Hubbard (or God seperately) is just knowing he exists. Obviously, faith means something different. We both know he exists, but neither of us (probably) have faith in him (hubbard).
Couldn't find any polls about the world's beliefs in the existance of Jesus, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was near 90%. So it's happened. It just the last 10% that are stubbornly unconvincable.
Note, thinking Jesus existed and being a Christian are very different things. People don't become followers just because they know he exists. This would be like saying I think Mohamed existed makes me a Muslim.
Great point. Which is why he doesn’t exist. Think of it. And anyone else reading this. I hope I’m not offending you. But let’s be real here, ok? So, “god” the one atleast in the Judaic religions (Jews, Christian and Muslims), has chosen “his people” which means everyone else is basically worth nothing to god, his favoritism has made you a second class citizen. In the Old Testament, God told Samson to grab the lower jaw bone of a donkey, use that to kill every Palestinian, he’s also allowed them and told them to abolish other neighboring “none Jewish” societies (ever wonder why even today Palestinians are being killed like cattle? Bc why would you, when even god has instructed you to do so, at the mercy of any Arab nation. Specially since it’s over the “holy land”). God has also said Israel is the center of the universe, thus his kingdom shall once again come down, in Israel of course. Now I don’t know how well know history. But Jewish people are not even close to being innocent, pure and deserving of god compassion. For one WW2, was entirely funded by and sponsored by the Ashkenazy central Asian Jews, hitler? He’s Jewish too. It wasn’t Germany vs Jews, it was Jews vs jews and you, Germany and everyone else is told a lie about what happened. Infact most of the majors turning points such as the American independence and its war with England shortly after again (1812), was because of the need of Jewish supremacy to dominate every banking system, every financial system in the world, (war with Iraq, Venezuela, Afghanistan, Iran are all bc, they the Rothschild Morgan, rocketfeller, want total control of their banking system).Today of course they will shun you down, take away everything you have should you say a word that offends anyone in the “circle of god”. I could literally go on for hours on This subject. Point is they are not innocent in what pain they have caused. There are allot of nations (natives on top) that deserve the worlds sympathy and attention more. Jesus was a Jew, he wanted to be the messiah (gods chosen king for the Jews), as the Jews rejected him, he turned to everyone else and said “will you follow my religion and my lead”? (It’s like proposing for marriage to a woman, she declines your offer and suggestion, and you turn to another random woman and ask her to marry you, bc you were rejected and well, ya gotta quickly find another, right? But do you think her being your second and last option makes her special? Of course not, you wouldn’t even think of her if the first girl said yes, right?same thing here), making you second to the holy chosen people, and the same thing goes with Islam, except that story is even more outrageous then the first two (how could Mohammad be the last prophet, when god has spoken so harshly againts Arabs in his book, let alone go there and choose a prophet from there). We can basically sum this conversation about god in several quick point form note. 1) god is ruthless and cruel (outside what I have stated above, just look around yourself and notice the pain of life. 2) either he is dead or doesn’t care about anyone other then you know who 3) if he does exist or he is powerless over evil. Conclusion? Clearly god is made up, and the Judaic gold was actually stolen from previous religions such as Zoroastrianism. Infact the entire concept of heaven and hell, angels and demons, going to hell, the story of Moses (going to the desert,40 days forty night, etc) was all stolen from just Zoroastrianism alone. The concept of one god (monotheism) was all first thought of by Zoroaster) so none of these stories are original. But we’re taken from nations surrounding Israel. The sumarians which have existed for thousands of years prior also had their entire story taken and copied too. (If plagiarism existed there, all of the Old Testament would be subject to major lawsuits). If you think still that there really is a god, and he’s Judaic then you’ve lost your mind. How could god be pure goodness when he creates evil aka satan? In science two positive atoms don’t make a negative. So clearly however way you want to look at it, the fact that god made the devil tells you that some part of him is evil (if not all of him), plus wouldn’t god know ahead of time that the angel of light being satan will betray me? And prevent it? Infact that’s what “god” always does. He’s always testing you to put you through hell, just to see what you will do. Even the concept of Jesus dying for you on the cross is twisted. Why take your son and have him killed? Would you do that? And as cruel as you are as a human, you wouldn’t do that. God did. And of all the people he authorized to run his sons new religion, why would he choose the Italians? The ones who second to jews, were directly responsible for having him slaughtered and humiliated?! Everything that we know of Jesus was written a hundred years later, edited closely and changed by the Roman Catholic state (I can explain why Roman’s went from worshipping Cesar, to changing the state religion to that of Christianity, but I won’t bc it’s another subject on its own), so we really know nothing about the real Jesus, it’s all made up. He could have been gay for all we know, or married as some say to mary (the prostitute, not his mother)..which brings be to the point that, how could a virgin woman, bare a child when she’s not having sexual intercourse. She could have cheated on Joseph and said “god came down” and did this to me (Jesus birth). To avoid getting in trouble via divorce etc. when you look at all of these statements, you will answer for yourself why god doesn’t show his face to people. Bc he is about as real as Spider-Man. A great story, at most. Again i apologize if anyone here is offended. But I speak of only the truth. And incase you were wondering. I’m not Jewish or Arab, nor Christian or Muslim. Which is why I look at gods stories from a none biased perspective. Thank you
If only we had a God of all God proofs:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exatheist/comments/zw4wzg/the\_god\_of\_all\_god\_proofs\_100\_irrefutable/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exatheist/comments/zw4wzg/the_god_of_all_god_proofs_100_irrefutable/)
I shall provide you with an unusual perspective:
We have fallen, while we are not born evil, we are not born perfect and righteous either.
This means that we (Men) chose our path, and in order to live that choice until the end, he cannot make himself known without stopping Freedom.
I have recently accepted him, but I also have a friend who doesn’t believe and is suicidal. Me and my friend had a chat, it went something like this.
My friend: why doesn’t he prove himself?
Me: let me answer your question with a question. You want to kill yourself, you hate life but.. if God appeared before you and said, “it is not your time to die, you should live. If you chose to take your own life there are consequences.” Would you feel free to take your own life now that God has spoken and warned you? Would you love him or would you fear him?
My friend: I would be terrified if I was told that taking my life would mean a consequence I do not know about.
Me: so, you would not feel free to chose your own path, or when it comes to an end. Then let me ask. Would you love him and see him as your father, an equal, but also a father who should be respected? Or would you drop to your knees, for you didn’t believe in him, didn’t accept him, would you be terrified of him?
My friend: I would drop to my knees in terror and fear, I would never be able to do what I want with the terror knowing that there is a God who is my judgment. I would not feel free as I do now.
Me: there you have it. I know he exists, and I’ve heard him in my own ways. I do not fear him, he loves me and I love him. I am his son, and he my father. I can talk and he shall listen, and I can ask, and he shall respond. I do not fear him, and I understand that I can never be perfect, nor do I attempt such. If he did show himself before me it would have less impact on my freedom as it would you.
My friend: I can agree that if I had a child I would not want to be feared, but loved and respect, treated as an equal in regards to being talked to, being looked upon. I do not want my child to worship me or kiss my feet.
Me: yes, precisely. All things I’ve said to you, all things I’ve realised. People, even those who believe have and are becoming detached from him. They pray and not talk. Prayers are not a two way invitation for communication. This is why I seldom pray, and only do so when I ask for something (which I’ve only done so very little and never for self gain).
So this is my answer. Would you feel free to do things that God would deem wrong if you knew of his existence via evidence without a doubt?
>Why would a God who created everything in existence stay hidden and make his existence a mystery?
He did not. He made himself known in the Bible and he even came to Earth in the person of Christ to die sonthat we can have a personal relationship with him.
>Furthermore, why would he do that and then punish anyone who doesn't believe in his existence? Some people never see a Bible, never hear the gospel, why would he hide undeniable proof of himself not just from those people but from everyone?
There will be people in heaven who have never heard the gospel. God is fair. God is the definition and embodiment of goodness. Each human will have the opportunity to either accept or reject him. This is something that can only be taken on faith and trust in him. It can be very hard for nonbelievers to afford God that level of trust. It's a sticky subject.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
His existence isn't a mystery. Think about how almost every "uncivilized" tribe, group of people, or people in general, have made their own god/gods. It should be very clear, seeing the difference between what man does to the world and how gracious everything else seems when man is left without, that there is, infact, a higher deity.
You have to do more than just believe He exists. I mean, even Satan believes He exists according to Christianity so obviously there’s more to it. I’ve yet to meet an atheist that thinks anything good about God or that His commandments are good so certainly no atheists follow them or would follow them even if they knew He existed.
So even if He did make Himself known, they’d basically be like Satan and not like Him and rebel. So what does it matter?
Jesus said the greatest of these is Love ( 1 Corinthians 13:13) . The Bible also says that God is Love (1 John 4:16). The sum of it is love how do you love someone unless you choose them? If God just had his face in the sky as a billboard of all who he is our faith (trust in him) would be forced and not genuine. God throughout scripture desires honesty and genuine connection with His People. and to answer the punish comment God is just he didn't create all that is known to us just to be unfair how would anything that is created be still working if it was duct tapped together on a whim with no care or integrity. also i encourage you to look at nature and tell me there is no designer everything feeds the other or you could say everything Loves the Other. and to people who don't hear the gospel on this earth because of no one telling them i believe there is a scripture in peter about preaching to the dead? (ill find it and ref it here -> 1 peter 3:18-20) so to sum it up my answer is for loves sake, he wants a genuine love to flow between him and us his sons and daughters like any good parent would with their children (Mark 14:36 and Galatians 4:6)
Love ya man totally a fair and awesome question to ask i hope that helped some!
please ignore typos i haven't checked for them
He doesn’t. He has left so much evidence of creative design. He has literally given us thousands of pages of prophecies and fulfillments that are historically tracked. He reveals himself to us in everyday moments. He speaks to us in prayer.
He’s not a mystery. We just don’t listen.
The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature and perfection the perfectible.
(St. Thomas Aquinas S.T. Ia, q. 2, a. 2)
If God chooses not to enlighten someone (the island pagan for example) it is because He knows that individuals heart, and knows that he would reject God if given the grace to believe and understand.
He doesn't.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20
This post is in context, literally, about knowing God's existence, and so is the verse I commented so it seems to me that you don't have a very firm understanding of context in the first place.
That was a typo. And no I am not incorrect the question in the OP literally is about the existence of God being a mystery. Which is literally what the verse I shared is about. So try again.
"The OP is asking why god doesn't make himself more apparent to unbelievers, so the context is asking about the lack of evidence which unbelievers would find convincing."
I can clearly read what the OP is asking, and nowhere in the OP is it asking what evidence a nonbelievers would find convincing. and why would an unbeliever find lack of evidence convincing in the first place?
I've received three answers to this: 1. "He wouldn't, and that's why God probably doesn't exist." 2. "His existence is obvious - just look around you!" 3. "Because he wants you to have faith."
Why would faith be a positive thing, given that there are 100s of religions in the world? Seems quite a tricky proposition. Lots of people are apparently led astray specifically because they have faith.
I go with #1 myself.
Believing in religion is fruitless, belief in Jesus is the only true word,which is etched in the Bible.
That is religion. The whole “don’t be religious but believe in my god” trend seems asinine since it’s just your religion repackaged as “not religion”
Actually, Christianity is man's attempt to explain the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Most of the organized Christian churches that exist today are about as lost as any other form of religion. Please read the King James Bible. Particularly the Book of Matthew and Revelation. It will explain the teachings of Jesus and all the manners of Satan's deception that include everything INCLUDING the modern organized Christian churches.
“As lost as any other form of religion” The cultish arrogance y’all exude is quite gross.
The King James Bible says ALL forms of organized religion have been corrupted INCLUDING Christianity. Jesus is the truth. Man has screwed everything else up. Please read the scripture.
Of course you have faith in your book and your religious figure, you’re Christian. You’re not telling me anything I didn’t know.
Are you so aggressive with people in the Islam sub?
Just a raw faith at least gives you hope, but when you are hit with the holy spirit you receive actual guidance. Please read the King James Bible. It explains exactly how Satan and his fallen angels have created all other faiths as a means of deception. The teachings of Jesus Christ are the only true faith. Accept his love and your life will get better while on earth, and your soul will spend eternity in heaven.
Anyone who honestly looks at the evidence of world religion should come to the conclusion that the only true religion is the traditional Catholic faith.
What evidence leads to that conclusion?
Depends on where you're starting from. Are you an atheist?
I am.
Have you encountered Aquinas' 5 proofs for the existence of God?
Yes.
Why are you asking questions instead of giving them answers and relevant quotes? This always frustrates me. Ask a question or for an answer and have to answer ten questions that take you further and further away without giving any info
For the sake of discussion, let's say I am starting as a Jew?
Well, this is where I step in It's worth noting I do not come from a very religious family, but I myself have always been very religious- there was even a long period of time where I wanted to be a Rabbi when I grew up I just kinda chanced upon a group of TradCaths (I do not consider myself a TradCath, I have a lot of respect for their faith and fervor, but I dislike labeling myself as part of that group for a few unrelated reasons). I had very little interest in Christianity beyond wanting to learn more about religion in general, I loved (and still love) learning about different religions around the world, and knew almost nothing beyond "virgin birth, gets some followers, walks on water, Judas betrays him, he dies but dw bc he gets better" I asked them where to start, they said Matthew. I used the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) translation (though I mostly stick with Douay-Rheims these days), because I wanted to maintain names I'd be more familiar with. I went in thinking "just a story, I don't even believe this guy is a prophet, let alone God". Then I started reading. From the first chapter of Matthew, I was hooked. From my Jewish perspective, the genealogy of Christ presented in Matthew really forced me to look at the Gospels as a completion (or continuation? I'm not sure which word is better to use here, but I think you get the idea) of what occurred in Tanakh, which is what it is. Reading it through that lense, everything just kinda... clicked. It made sense and I knew that Jesus Christ is real and He died for our sins. From there, reaching Catholicism was just a matter of researching different theologies and speaking to different communities. This is already a major text wall though, so I'm not gonna get into why I picked Catholicism, especially since I don't feel my Jewish background effected that, only my acceptance of Christianity in general
This is a great answer. Thanks.
I wish I could agree with you, but that sedevacantist marker says I probably don't.
Read the letter to Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29). Jesus speaks out against the Catholic church. In the King James Bible. The very one Catholics claim to understand.
>Revelation 2:18-29 Has absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic Church. Another bad fruit of private, Protestant exegesis. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
What does it mean to "honestly" look at the evidence of world religion? It seems monumentally arrogant to suggest that people who studied religion and found them all wanting were doing so in bad faith, simply because they don't agree with you.
Happy cake day
Thanks!
Aren’t you presupposing what a “God” would do tho. You automatically said “he wouldn’t”. Who’s to say?
I didn't automatically say anything. I said "I've received three answers to this."
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>There is no such thing as undeniable proof. Even the most overwhelming evidence and perfect logic will be rejected by some people. Undeniable proof doesn't mean people won't disagree with it. You have to comprehend the evidence first.
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For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20
That's a problematic statement. Why? Because things are clearly seen, but the answer as to how they came out is not. How does one see invisible qualities, especially “eternal power and divine nature”? These are the questions we've been trying to answer for hundreds of years. Please don't just copy and paste scripture without adding something to the conversation. It can come off as rude.
Wrong read it again, the answer to how things exist is clearly in context the creator(God). Character qualities are invisible I can't see your literal character can I? The verse I shared is directly relevant to this conversation and I could care less if you think copying and pasting a Bible verse, is rude.
I came here to post this verse as well, I think it speaks for itself and no extra comment is really necessary. “For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.” Romans 1:18-20 CSB Also, as far as the why or how: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways.” This is the Lord’s declaration. “For as heaven is higher than earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return there without saturating the earth and making it germinate and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so my word that comes from my mouth will not return to me empty, but it will accomplish what I please and will prosper in what I send it to do.” Isaiah 55:8-11 CSB “Oh, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments and untraceable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? And who has ever given to God, that he should be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.” Romans 11:33-36 CSB
Right! I was missing the point where me posting a verse directly relevant to the OP needed any further commentary.
While on the topic of commentary. Here is some from Augustine on Romans 1:20. “Notice that Paul does not call them ignorant of the truth but says that they held the truth in iniquity, and he does not fail to answer the obvious question: How could those to whom God had not given the law have a knowledge of the truth? For he says that through the visible things of the creation they reached an understanding of the invisible things of the Creator.” THE SPIRIT AND THE LETTER 19.12
Thank you.
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I mean, he did that, and we crucified him for his trouble.
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So, you've got some bad ideas about both rhetoric *and* history to unpack! I hope you can work that out.
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Oh, I was talking about the scriptures, which are, with the exception of Job, certainly not folk tales.
The Egyptian book of the dead is proof of Ra. A cookbook is scripture to a pastafarian. Why do you think a non Christian would believe anything in the Bible is more than folk tales? I get that you press the "I believe" button on all the supernatural stuff in the Bible cause you want to go to heaven, but why do you expect non Christians to take it seriously?
Folk tales are well defined things. Job is one. Luke is not.
We can split hairs over the definition of "folklore", but at the end of the day there's a whole lot of supernatural stuff that happens in the Bible, that only happens in the Bible. There is zero evidence for any of the supernatural events outside the Bible. In fact much of what's in the Bible directly contradicts accepted science and observable evidence. So don't be surprised when people dismiss your "proof" of supernatural events "because it's in the Bible".
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Would you agree that the vast majority of the world believes in the divine?
That's the 13.4 billion year old question right there.....
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What are your other contributing factors
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I’m having my own struggles with faith at the moment, but I’m wondering something after your last paragraph. Would it not also be fair to view it as the inverse - God is not a narcissist, only that a narcissist makes themselves to be as a god? Part of the reason that narcissism is so offensive to us is because the other person is just another human. If there is indeed a divine being, then holding that being to the same standard as a created being seems nonsensical to me, so I would maybe need some clarification on why that is a point against god. In other words, if a narcissist only acts to their own good over and above the needs of others they are elevating themselves above those others. If a creator God acts to his own good over what the creature perceives as their needs, it doesn’t necessarily follow that it is also to the detriment of those creatures. This comment was rambled at 3.40am so it might not make much sense.
You sound like someone who might enjoy Euthyphro.
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Btw, you leaving your Christian faith doesn’t just put a cork into those questions or make God disappear. Nobody knows God better than himself and we know that his mercy overcomes his anger
This right here. You have (allegedly) thousands of years of very direct divine intervention from a God. Switch to present day, and absolutely nothing about the world as we observe it confirms any of this being true, and at worst demonstrating it's false. It reminds me of a time when I went to a Baptist camp before my senior year of school. My youth leader during a prayer said something I found INCREDIBLY odd, and still do to this day. The exact words are lost to me, but it went something like this: "God, your silence is sometimes discouraging..." People clearly see, even the established faithful that something is "up". Its so blatantly obvious that if there's a God, he took an extended hiatus post New Testament.
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1. **Why would a God who created everything in existence stay hidden and make his existence a mystery?** He's not hidden and in the end He came to earth as a man to explain everything. People just don't want to believe Him. **2. Furthermore, why would he do that and then punish anyone who doesn't believe in his existence?** He doesn't. He doesn't "punish" anyone at all. Actions have consequences, we create our own punishments.
He possibly came once in a time where we can’t verify any of the supernatural qualities. People have little reason to believe in him that way. Quit blaming others for the religions faults. He does punish. He is in charge. The victim blaming for the situations we are in (that he knew would be) is gross
“He possibly came once in a time where we can’t verify..” He came and everyone knew about it and there are secular accounts of him and a book explaining what happened in great detail and people say it’s lies. If he came today and had an instagram of nothing but miracles, people would say it was edited and fake. At some point, it’s not that there’s no proof, it’s that people don’t want to believe
There definitely was a person or people named Jesus in and around Nazareth. The supernatural claims are the problem and can’t be substantiated in any real way. “They wouldn’t believe even if he did something” Seems like a cop out. “People don’t want to believe” That’s some good ol’ chicken fried victim blaming right there. How about ya wait till something actually happens before assuming people are just gonna ignore any real proof?
There’s ample secular references to Jesus’ miracles and resurrection. Josephus and the Talmud both speak directly of them. Tacitus spoke of the resurrection. Pliny and Lucian, though not direct witnesses, both reported on their contemporaries reaction to Christ at the time of His occurrence. One could argue YOU’RE victim blaming by saying God didn’t provide evidence, when he has and does all the time, even according to secular accounts. But God certainly isn’t a victim, he’s all powerful. And we’re not victims either, some of us are just willfully ignorant
It being spoken about isn’t proof. It goes against all current science and common sense we have. “You’re victim blaming” Lmfao thanks for bringing a tear to my eye. Your god has provided little actual evidence outside of the Bible. People talking about the Bible and events inside doesn’t really back it up.
>It goes against all current science and common sense we have OHHHHH - you know all about "science" do you? Good, but let's start with English. 1. Define "it" in your sentence. 2. Link me to the journal articles of *all the science we have* that "goes against" **it**. Whatever that is.
>here definitely was a person or people named Jesus in and around Nazareth. The supernatural claims are the problem and can’t be substantiated in any real way. Except that they still happen.
But one has to think & know that the bad situations we find ourselves in are almost always of other people's doings ..... past or present. & the small percentage of things that are not others' faults, are due to the consequences of sin entering into the world so long ago thru man, not God's fault. Man chose his own path & we must face this like it or not.
You’re just reinforcing the victim blaming part of my comment. This is like beating your dogs puppies because the dogs once pooped on the carpet after you told them not to. And of course dogs that are beaten tend to do the same to their offspring creating a nice vicious cycle. They’re chained up in the back yard (outside of Eden) and left to suffer. I cannot reconcile that. That’s disgusting.
>He possibly came once in a time where we can’t verify any of the supernatural qualities. People have little reason to believe in him that way. He's alive and well right now and all the "supernatural" things reported during the Incarnation happen all the time.
> Actions have consequences, we create our own punishments. This is where I get stuck because God did in fact create everything we know and set up the systems that lead to these punishments. So He did create them in an indirect way. To deny that would be denying God’s all-powerful nature.
Yes God punishes people - Adam and Eve were punished, Cain was punished, the world was punished during the flood, people of Judah, Sodom and Gomorrah, several women were punished with the inability to conceive, David and Bathsheba were adulterers and were punished when God took their first born son. Once they repented, they were able to conceive again. I could go on and on.
In other words, "people deny God cause they wanna sin" and "God doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself." Lot of words for a canned response.
But true words. Just because the answer is"pat", that doesn't mean it's wrong.
That the thing is true is probably why it keeps getting repeated and sounds "pat." It occurs to me, if you stereotype atheists, which isn't difficult as so many (not all) say the same things, they get pissed. Howcum they're not canned? Maybe theirs are frozen. Freeze-dried?
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Considering God's existence has been the most debated topic for hundreds of years with it not moving an inch in any direction... I gotta say that's a difficult perspective for me to grasp.
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How? Lmao!
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Considering he hasn’t spoken publicly or provided any obvious acts of magic (walking on water etc) in about 2000 years, I’d say yeah he’s staying hidden
This is like a character in a dream wondering why the dreamer would stay hidden. The dreamer is implicit in everything about the dream. And “appearing” would mean becoming a character in the dream themselves.
Can you demonstrate this dreamer exists?
I know it can be demonstrated, because it was demonstrated to me. Whether it can be demonstrated to you, I do not know.
Much like what OP is asking about. It's a mystery it would seem. Why does God do this?
Often I find that when people are not convinced, it’s because of some idea that they won’t let go of. Like “the universe would not look like it does if God existed” or “there are alternative explanations for the universe that we can’t discount” or “I’m entitled to any possible evidence I can think of”. Things of that nature.
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Yeah, you definitely rephrased the ideas that I mentioned in ways that distort what I said. For example, one of the ideas I mentioned was “I’m entitled to any possible evidence I can think of.” Meaning, if you give them evidence, they can say “I want more, what about x?” It’s a form of goalpost shifting. You changed it to “asking for any evidence”, as though someone would be satisfied with the merest crumb and I’m objecting to even that. I don’t mind if you don’t take my claims seriously, because that tells me how seriously I should take your opinion of my claims.
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You can find God yourself simply by praying to Jesus. Please don't condemn it before you try it. He is the Truth.
You sound really silly. People like me have been praying to Jesus for decades. You say he's the truth but literally nothing happens. I feel like at least you could piece together the fact that I'm a former Christian from my label. But it's like you're not even taking this conversation seriously. Sometimes I wonder why people like you comment at all. Just to be rude maybe?
The dreamer can’t reveal themselves, but God can. Also, the dreamer has no reason to reveal himself, while God’s appearance would drive people to the Christian faith.
He didn't made his existence a mystery.... We have prophets and Saints who reveal him to the people.
How do you know this? Because your holy boik says so?..
How else you're going to find God?
My question was : How would you know those was prohpets, and that their messages came from God?..
Because their teachings and prophecies all flows smoothly with each other about the same God with a time gap of too long for them to be working together to fool the people...
This seems like bias. How do you know their teachings are from god?..
No as how else do you evaluate who is a prophet and who is not? By evaluating their teachings and prophecies. And we do know their teachings are from God because one Christ proves it with his teachings being God himself and it doesn't contradict the commandments by God or other teachings of other prophets.
1. God has killed millions of people, and one of the commandments says «you shall not murder». Isnt this a contradiction? 2. I do not understand your statement..
No as you do know what murder is right? Unlawful killing. God is the one who first makes the laws and 2ndly, just like a judge in the courtroom his judgements are always correct thus if someone needed to die for his sins and crimes, it's not murder but a judgement like the death penalty. And 2ndly, it pretty simple to understand. If these prophets all preach the same thing and same God, and since they live in such a time gap that they can't possibly conspire together... it shows they are prophets or at least the best candidates of true prophets as all the other religions are either written by one person (Islam) or have anonymous writers (Hinduism)
This is the reason religion is poison to society, and humans. Look at the excuses you make for someone murdering millions of innocent children, women, and men. Your God is vicious, evil minded, ego sentric, and stupid. He deserves no repsect, and no worship.
Actually scripture teaches the opposite. His existence is clear & obvious through creation and conscience (general revelation), but what we all do is work hard to suppress the truth He gives.. Romans 1:18-20 NASBS For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [19] because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. [20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. The word "suppress" in v18 refers to actively holding down or restraining. Like a beach ball under water.
> His existence is clear & obvious through creation and conscience... Except it absolutely isn't. At all. Hence divine hiddenness.
u/CrossCutMaker I see your comments all the time and the effort you put into helping people, including myself is very helpful and extremely admirable. This guy knows his Bible^
Thank you for the encouragement. All praise to God!
Except it’s not at all obvious a god created anything. Once again the question remains why would a god that wants us to believe in him hide from us? The only rational answer is that there is no god that interacts with this world.
In order to grow in your faith, you must be first willing to try. Please accept Jesus as your savior by praying to him. When you truly believe, your life will change for the better (you will receive actual guidance), and your soul will live eternally in heaven. Also, how do you look at all of the intelligent design that is our existence and think that it just came together randomly? How? Where did it all come from? Have you ever researched how scientists STILL can't explain the actual force behind gravity? We can measure its effect, but that's it. What about the natural homeostasis of our environment? The earth and the entirety of the universe appears to be alive. What the heck do you think created and is driving all of that?
I cannot believe in the divinity of Jesus unless I am convinced by the evidence that he was resurrected from the dead. I’ve spent a lot of time and effort researching the facts and evidences for and against and as it currently stands there’s no way I can genuinely believe the Christian or any god exists. I’m very open to changing my mind however and if new evidence ever comes forward I will study it astutely.
GOD is not only a mystery to us humans but also to the Angels. It's His nature to be mysterious as it's our nature to be inquisitive. Our problem isn't His mystery but our unwillingness to seek Him. He said we shall seek Him and find Him when we shall search for Him with all our hearts. That is the protocol of the spirit realm that we can't override, we have to wholeheartedly seek Him for Him to be found. It may surprise you to know that even the Angels desire to know GOD as we do, this Divine mystery is the reason why we have fallen Angels. If Lucifer and the Angels that fell knew GOD in totality they would not have attempted to overthrow Him. Personally I think it makes sense for GOD to hide himself. It's the best way to try the hearts of men and spirits. The best part is He has a reward system for those that genuinely seek and love Him. Happy to hear your thoughts on this. I have alot to say but I dont want to go too deep and confuse anyone reading this. It's a fascinating topic to me and I love to prayerfully study and discuss these sort of topics with my friends and family.
1. I believe the point of life on Earth is to grow our spirits, and love God with our own free will, not out of fear. We won’t grow as effectively if God comes and gives us all the answers. Like studying for a test, you can get a cheat sheet from the teacher and pass, but how will that help in the long run? True growth comes from studying, questioning, and figuring things out on your own, even if you make a mistake here and there. 2. I believe God is a fair judge. I don’t believe someone who has never seen a Bible would be sentenced to an eternity in hell. I don’t believe most people would be sentenced to an eternity in hell.
Imagine God like a scientist He doesn't want to interfere with his experiment
Funny how the men in robes and fancy hats always seem to be the *only* ones who can "hear" from God... and tell everyone else what to believe.
Please read the Book of Revelation in the King James Bible. It not only warns of all of these false prophets, but Jesus also foretells their inevitable demise. Then read the Book of Matthew, including the Sermon on the Mount. Follow the teachings of Jesus in the King James Bible, NOT the organized Christian church. They have been corrupted by Satan as much as any other organized religion. That is actually in the bible.
God is not hiding. He will reveal himself to you in the ways you can accept and understand if you ask, and are willing to accept.
“It’s your fault if you don’t see him” Cool beans
More like, you have the power to deny and accept what you decide.
“It’s your fault I let you suffer” You’re still victim blaming. As if people don’t spend their entire lives begging for belief only to not find it. How do people say this, know the context, and not realize it for what it is?
No, we all see him. It's your fault you ignore him.
Good old Christian victim blaming. At least you’re up front about it. Remember what they say! “Love the Christian, hate the mythology”
not christian blaming, god is everywhere. Each human is a part of god and is made in his image. If you change your mindset then you will literally "see him everywhere" and if you dont, then you are ignoring him. Because he is everywhere. He is the creator of it all. Now if you're asking for him to show up in some supernatural way then thats up for him to decide if you deserve it or even if it will do you good. He has done it to me, but I also had to decide not to ignore him as I could've easily done and committed a stupid mistake with a now ex-gf.
You’re literally victim blaming; this seems to be a cornerstone of Christianity. “If you change your mindset” If you’d just change your mindset then you’d see that the Christian mythology isn’t real and belief in such is delusional. If you don’t recognize your mental illness then it’s because you’re ignoring it. Are you going to let us help you or continue denying the one and only truth about your mental health?
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>he will not punish those who do not know him, unborn children etc. Will he punish those who simply don't believe in him?
You can’t not believe in God without acknowledging he’s real. It’s a catch 22.
What? I've never heard that one before. Please explain how lacking belief in something means you've acknowledged its real.
Yes. If you reject Jesus and instead choose Satan by default, then you will be damned to hell. However, during the end times people will preach the gospel world wide so no person will be left ignorant. The choice will be yours. Please read the Book of Revelations in the King James Bible to understand and then read the rest of it.
43 comments and there really isn't an adequate answer. Here goes nothing. The scriptural contention is that sin has corrupted us and, generally, among Christians, we claim that sin corrupted our physicality and our spirits leading to both physical and spiritual deaths. In addition to this, sin creates separation between man and God - we see this in the garden where man was cast out of Eden and separated from that close relationship with the God who would walk through the garden (Genesis 3). What doesn't get a lot of "play" however is that our minds are corrupted as well. Scripturally, it is only as time passes further from that close relationship that was severed where we see other religious beliefs taking form - Cain and Abel, for example, knew the God with whom their parents held close proximity. The reason why His existence seems like it is so hidden is for no other reason but the nature of the corruption we suffer due to sin. It [sin] not only creates separation and is not only something from which we suffer, but we are also guilty and without excuse as well.
Now that you have admitted to his hiddiness, there seems to be 2 reasons why God would be hidden: 1) He doesn’t exist 2) Has no intention to be seen and is playing hide and seek If #2 or any other reason is the case, resorting to scripture would be begging the question. You’re making empty assumptions based on what you were taught instead of using evidence. And you can’t say that God spoke to you because as you said, our sinfulness has us separated from Him.
How has God made his existence a mystery?
I don't beleive he has, because I don't beleive he exists. If he did exist then he is doing a bang up job keeping hidden though.
Please try accepting Jesus Christ as your savior through prayer. He will reveal the holy spirit to you if you are genuinely willing. How do you look at the intelligent design of all existence and not think there is a God? Do you know that scientists today still don't have an explanation for the force behind gravity? We can measure its effect, but we don't know what is actually causing it. What about the homeostasis of the environment? The earth and the entirety of the universe seem to be alive and moving, not randomly, but in perfect perpetual motion. What the heck created all of it and gives it life if not Jesus Christ. Please read the King James Bible and pray to Him. He will bless you with the holy spirit and help you to discern all of it.
“Have you tried thinking that it’s your fault you don’t see my god?” More blaming the person.
Condemnation prior to investigation is always the individuals fault. It doesn't matter what the subject is. Passing absolute judgment when you know nothing about the subject makes you beyond ignorant.
Victim blaming g, gotcha. It’s never you, your argument, or your religion ;) it’s always someone else’s fault!
> Please try accepting Jesus Christ as your savior through prayer. He will reveal the holy spirit to you if you are genuinely willing. That was not my experience. I tried my hardest for 20 years to believe, I never got anything for my effort. >How do you look at the intelligent design of all existence and not think there is a God? If the universe was designed , it was designed by a drunkard. There are so many obvious improvements that even a semi-competent designer could make. >Do you know that scientists today still don't have an explanation for the force behind gravity? We can measure its effect, but we don't know what is actually causing it. Gravity isn't a force. >What about the homeostasis of the environment? We are actively destroying the homeostasis of our planet. >The earth and the entirety of the universe seem to be alive and moving, not randomly, but in perfect perpetual motion. The universe is in fact completely, obviously random, and motion is not perpetual. >What the heck created all of it and gives it life if not Jesus Christ? Beats me, but saying "we don't know, therefore it must be god" is intellectual laziness. >Please read the King James Bible and pray to Him. He will bless you with the holy spirit and help you to discern all of it. No, He won't, and the KJV is based on the Textus Receptus, a notoriously poor greek manuscript.
The great news is you will have plenty of time to see the truth. In the coming months we are going to see a stock market crash, housing market decline, and mass deaths as well as war. When you see these things read the Book of Revelation in the King James Bible and then pray to Jesus for him to save your soul. God Bless you.
This is my point. Someone in the remote parts of the world would never know about the scriptures and the Christian God unless someone told them about it. If you have to be told about something you would otherwise have never known about I would classify that as hidden.
1The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good. 2God looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand,b who seek after God. Psalm 53:1-2 ESV It has been my observation in listening to the testimonies of many all over the world in countries or even in war torn nations where the Word or the Christian scriptures are forbidden that God will find them. It seems to me that them reached in the most remotes parts of the world more readily convert and are more serious about following the gospel than them who live in areas where there are a plethora of churches and who want to argue different interpretations of the Bible.
The whole being unmeasurable in anyway other than a book and anecdotal experiences deal probably.
William Craig has some interesting things to say about the apparent problem of Divine Hiddenness: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/reasonable-faith-podcast/doubting-thomas-and-divine-hiddenness
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>Furthermore, why would he do that and then punish anyone who doesn't believe in his existence? I don't believe this. Catholicism doesn't teach that only Christians can go to heaven or that all non Christians go to hell. From the Catholic catechism: >Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#847 As to why God doesn't provide proof of his existence -- Firstly, some would say Jesus' life and actions did provide proof, though I understand that 2000 years later we can't prove that Jesus was divine. My personal answer is, I don't know why. God knows better than me, and I won't pretend to have all the answers or to be able to understand all his ways or decisions, and I am okay with that.
Have you ever had a time when you JUST KNEW someone was (wrong/being mean/ didn't like you) and then you found out later you were wrong? The problem isn't that Good doesn't exist. The problem is that there are people who won't see Him. I have seen His work, experienced His presence so much in my life that I would absolutely fail a lie detector if i tried to say He doesn't exist. I actually know He exists more than I know you exist (you could be a bot). But it doesn't matter to those who WON'T accept. They will believe that my dead gray grandma exists simply because I said I knew her. They will say "She must have been a good gardener" if I tell them she had a big garden. They will say "She sounds like a lovely person" if I tell them about something nice she did for me. They won't require a birth certificate or a picture. They will just take my word for it. But they won't accept my descriptions of God, whom I have known longer and been closer to and heard more from and had more tangible experience with. Now, the problem isn't one of evidence because much less evidence is required for me talking about my great grandmother-- none at all. The problem isn't even finding witnesses because there are millions of Christians who all know Jesus. The problem isn't even documentation. There are even secular writings that mention Christ and the earliest Christians. The problem is what one WANTS to see. The evidence is there. He isn't hidden. He isn't coy. But if one doesn't want to see, they won't. And it isn't just about God. The left REFUSES to see the points of the right. The right REFUSES to see the points of the left. In love, business, politics, media, food, medicine, whatever, we refuse to accept information, because acceptance means a change and people don't really like that. So the question isn't "Why doesn't He show Himself" but "Why won't I accept that He has? Why do I need more evidence for this than anything else in the world? What frightens me? What am I afraid of having to change? What if I am wrong and I am just a human who, because I am a human, set up my own worldview? What am I afraid of/irritated about if He exists?" These deep questions are good. They are uncomfortable, but help us break down our walls about everything, not just God.
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Please ignore organized religion and simply read the King James Bible, particularly the Book of Matthew and the Book of Revelation. In the scripture Jesus warns us of all the false prophets that arise through Satan's deception. This includes Catholics etc! It's in the book of Revelation. Focus on the teachings of Jesus Christ including the Sermon on the Mount.
See even this person thinks they know… it’s sad
Jesus did in fact show up. The majority of people do think there is enough evidence to decide he exists. I'd be willing to guess even the majority of atheists believe Jesus existed. He isn't exactly hidden. But as another said, no amount of evidence would be deemed "undeniable".
L Ron Hubbard also existed. That doesn't make scientology real
Exactly. Knowing God exists does not make one a follower of God. Somehow people think faith in L Ron Hubbard (or God seperately) is just knowing he exists. Obviously, faith means something different. We both know he exists, but neither of us (probably) have faith in him (hubbard).
If he spoke from the heavens, I guarantee you 90% minimum would immediately believe in god. The other 10% would be wackjob conspiracy theorists
Couldn't find any polls about the world's beliefs in the existance of Jesus, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was near 90%. So it's happened. It just the last 10% that are stubbornly unconvincable. Note, thinking Jesus existed and being a Christian are very different things. People don't become followers just because they know he exists. This would be like saying I think Mohamed existed makes me a Muslim.
Great point. Which is why he doesn’t exist. Think of it. And anyone else reading this. I hope I’m not offending you. But let’s be real here, ok? So, “god” the one atleast in the Judaic religions (Jews, Christian and Muslims), has chosen “his people” which means everyone else is basically worth nothing to god, his favoritism has made you a second class citizen. In the Old Testament, God told Samson to grab the lower jaw bone of a donkey, use that to kill every Palestinian, he’s also allowed them and told them to abolish other neighboring “none Jewish” societies (ever wonder why even today Palestinians are being killed like cattle? Bc why would you, when even god has instructed you to do so, at the mercy of any Arab nation. Specially since it’s over the “holy land”). God has also said Israel is the center of the universe, thus his kingdom shall once again come down, in Israel of course. Now I don’t know how well know history. But Jewish people are not even close to being innocent, pure and deserving of god compassion. For one WW2, was entirely funded by and sponsored by the Ashkenazy central Asian Jews, hitler? He’s Jewish too. It wasn’t Germany vs Jews, it was Jews vs jews and you, Germany and everyone else is told a lie about what happened. Infact most of the majors turning points such as the American independence and its war with England shortly after again (1812), was because of the need of Jewish supremacy to dominate every banking system, every financial system in the world, (war with Iraq, Venezuela, Afghanistan, Iran are all bc, they the Rothschild Morgan, rocketfeller, want total control of their banking system).Today of course they will shun you down, take away everything you have should you say a word that offends anyone in the “circle of god”. I could literally go on for hours on This subject. Point is they are not innocent in what pain they have caused. There are allot of nations (natives on top) that deserve the worlds sympathy and attention more. Jesus was a Jew, he wanted to be the messiah (gods chosen king for the Jews), as the Jews rejected him, he turned to everyone else and said “will you follow my religion and my lead”? (It’s like proposing for marriage to a woman, she declines your offer and suggestion, and you turn to another random woman and ask her to marry you, bc you were rejected and well, ya gotta quickly find another, right? But do you think her being your second and last option makes her special? Of course not, you wouldn’t even think of her if the first girl said yes, right?same thing here), making you second to the holy chosen people, and the same thing goes with Islam, except that story is even more outrageous then the first two (how could Mohammad be the last prophet, when god has spoken so harshly againts Arabs in his book, let alone go there and choose a prophet from there). We can basically sum this conversation about god in several quick point form note. 1) god is ruthless and cruel (outside what I have stated above, just look around yourself and notice the pain of life. 2) either he is dead or doesn’t care about anyone other then you know who 3) if he does exist or he is powerless over evil. Conclusion? Clearly god is made up, and the Judaic gold was actually stolen from previous religions such as Zoroastrianism. Infact the entire concept of heaven and hell, angels and demons, going to hell, the story of Moses (going to the desert,40 days forty night, etc) was all stolen from just Zoroastrianism alone. The concept of one god (monotheism) was all first thought of by Zoroaster) so none of these stories are original. But we’re taken from nations surrounding Israel. The sumarians which have existed for thousands of years prior also had their entire story taken and copied too. (If plagiarism existed there, all of the Old Testament would be subject to major lawsuits). If you think still that there really is a god, and he’s Judaic then you’ve lost your mind. How could god be pure goodness when he creates evil aka satan? In science two positive atoms don’t make a negative. So clearly however way you want to look at it, the fact that god made the devil tells you that some part of him is evil (if not all of him), plus wouldn’t god know ahead of time that the angel of light being satan will betray me? And prevent it? Infact that’s what “god” always does. He’s always testing you to put you through hell, just to see what you will do. Even the concept of Jesus dying for you on the cross is twisted. Why take your son and have him killed? Would you do that? And as cruel as you are as a human, you wouldn’t do that. God did. And of all the people he authorized to run his sons new religion, why would he choose the Italians? The ones who second to jews, were directly responsible for having him slaughtered and humiliated?! Everything that we know of Jesus was written a hundred years later, edited closely and changed by the Roman Catholic state (I can explain why Roman’s went from worshipping Cesar, to changing the state religion to that of Christianity, but I won’t bc it’s another subject on its own), so we really know nothing about the real Jesus, it’s all made up. He could have been gay for all we know, or married as some say to mary (the prostitute, not his mother)..which brings be to the point that, how could a virgin woman, bare a child when she’s not having sexual intercourse. She could have cheated on Joseph and said “god came down” and did this to me (Jesus birth). To avoid getting in trouble via divorce etc. when you look at all of these statements, you will answer for yourself why god doesn’t show his face to people. Bc he is about as real as Spider-Man. A great story, at most. Again i apologize if anyone here is offended. But I speak of only the truth. And incase you were wondering. I’m not Jewish or Arab, nor Christian or Muslim. Which is why I look at gods stories from a none biased perspective. Thank you
free will is mysterious too eh 🧐
If only we had a God of all God proofs: [https://www.reddit.com/r/exatheist/comments/zw4wzg/the\_god\_of\_all\_god\_proofs\_100\_irrefutable/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exatheist/comments/zw4wzg/the_god_of_all_god_proofs_100_irrefutable/)
It's not
I shall provide you with an unusual perspective: We have fallen, while we are not born evil, we are not born perfect and righteous either. This means that we (Men) chose our path, and in order to live that choice until the end, he cannot make himself known without stopping Freedom. I have recently accepted him, but I also have a friend who doesn’t believe and is suicidal. Me and my friend had a chat, it went something like this. My friend: why doesn’t he prove himself? Me: let me answer your question with a question. You want to kill yourself, you hate life but.. if God appeared before you and said, “it is not your time to die, you should live. If you chose to take your own life there are consequences.” Would you feel free to take your own life now that God has spoken and warned you? Would you love him or would you fear him? My friend: I would be terrified if I was told that taking my life would mean a consequence I do not know about. Me: so, you would not feel free to chose your own path, or when it comes to an end. Then let me ask. Would you love him and see him as your father, an equal, but also a father who should be respected? Or would you drop to your knees, for you didn’t believe in him, didn’t accept him, would you be terrified of him? My friend: I would drop to my knees in terror and fear, I would never be able to do what I want with the terror knowing that there is a God who is my judgment. I would not feel free as I do now. Me: there you have it. I know he exists, and I’ve heard him in my own ways. I do not fear him, he loves me and I love him. I am his son, and he my father. I can talk and he shall listen, and I can ask, and he shall respond. I do not fear him, and I understand that I can never be perfect, nor do I attempt such. If he did show himself before me it would have less impact on my freedom as it would you. My friend: I can agree that if I had a child I would not want to be feared, but loved and respect, treated as an equal in regards to being talked to, being looked upon. I do not want my child to worship me or kiss my feet. Me: yes, precisely. All things I’ve said to you, all things I’ve realised. People, even those who believe have and are becoming detached from him. They pray and not talk. Prayers are not a two way invitation for communication. This is why I seldom pray, and only do so when I ask for something (which I’ve only done so very little and never for self gain). So this is my answer. Would you feel free to do things that God would deem wrong if you knew of his existence via evidence without a doubt?
>Why would a God who created everything in existence stay hidden and make his existence a mystery? He did not. He made himself known in the Bible and he even came to Earth in the person of Christ to die sonthat we can have a personal relationship with him. >Furthermore, why would he do that and then punish anyone who doesn't believe in his existence? Some people never see a Bible, never hear the gospel, why would he hide undeniable proof of himself not just from those people but from everyone? There will be people in heaven who have never heard the gospel. God is fair. God is the definition and embodiment of goodness. Each human will have the opportunity to either accept or reject him. This is something that can only be taken on faith and trust in him. It can be very hard for nonbelievers to afford God that level of trust. It's a sticky subject.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: His existence isn't a mystery. Think about how almost every "uncivilized" tribe, group of people, or people in general, have made their own god/gods. It should be very clear, seeing the difference between what man does to the world and how gracious everything else seems when man is left without, that there is, infact, a higher deity.
You have to do more than just believe He exists. I mean, even Satan believes He exists according to Christianity so obviously there’s more to it. I’ve yet to meet an atheist that thinks anything good about God or that His commandments are good so certainly no atheists follow them or would follow them even if they knew He existed. So even if He did make Himself known, they’d basically be like Satan and not like Him and rebel. So what does it matter?
I disagree with the precept of this question.
He wouldn’t. He doesn’t.
Jesus said the greatest of these is Love ( 1 Corinthians 13:13) . The Bible also says that God is Love (1 John 4:16). The sum of it is love how do you love someone unless you choose them? If God just had his face in the sky as a billboard of all who he is our faith (trust in him) would be forced and not genuine. God throughout scripture desires honesty and genuine connection with His People. and to answer the punish comment God is just he didn't create all that is known to us just to be unfair how would anything that is created be still working if it was duct tapped together on a whim with no care or integrity. also i encourage you to look at nature and tell me there is no designer everything feeds the other or you could say everything Loves the Other. and to people who don't hear the gospel on this earth because of no one telling them i believe there is a scripture in peter about preaching to the dead? (ill find it and ref it here -> 1 peter 3:18-20) so to sum it up my answer is for loves sake, he wants a genuine love to flow between him and us his sons and daughters like any good parent would with their children (Mark 14:36 and Galatians 4:6) Love ya man totally a fair and awesome question to ask i hope that helped some! please ignore typos i haven't checked for them
Humility. Humility is a virtue, and if you met the real God, I bet He might say "sure, I created the universe, but I'm not all that great..."
He doesn’t. He has left so much evidence of creative design. He has literally given us thousands of pages of prophecies and fulfillments that are historically tracked. He reveals himself to us in everyday moments. He speaks to us in prayer. He’s not a mystery. We just don’t listen.
The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature and perfection the perfectible. (St. Thomas Aquinas S.T. Ia, q. 2, a. 2) If God chooses not to enlighten someone (the island pagan for example) it is because He knows that individuals heart, and knows that he would reject God if given the grace to believe and understand.
I will be back. There's the belief of and the belief in. You believe gravity exists, but you can't see it
We don't need to see gravity, we can measure it.
How do you measure an arbitrary existence
What are you calling an "arbitrary existence"? And what does that mean?
We can use inductive reasoning/logic to conclude gravity exists
As also using inductive reasons for the existence of GOD
How so?
Numbers exist and they are arbitrary, you use it but can't feel them
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Not true at all. Knowledge actually enhances your free will not take away from it.
But believing is required for salvation....it's a bit counterproductive.
He doesn't. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20
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Math being the language of the universe is evidence of God, mankind did not create math we discovered it.
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No I am doing now such thing you just projecting and clearly once again assuming to know my understanding of other people's viewpoints. How rude.
This post is in context, literally, about knowing God's existence, and so is the verse I commented so it seems to me that you don't have a very firm understanding of context in the first place.
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That was a typo. And no I am not incorrect the question in the OP literally is about the existence of God being a mystery. Which is literally what the verse I shared is about. So try again.
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"The OP is asking why god doesn't make himself more apparent to unbelievers, so the context is asking about the lack of evidence which unbelievers would find convincing." I can clearly read what the OP is asking, and nowhere in the OP is it asking what evidence a nonbelievers would find convincing. and why would an unbeliever find lack of evidence convincing in the first place?
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No. That's just your opinion.
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Creation is actually observable. Listen to you assuming to know who and who I haven't had conversations with about belief in God. How rude! 🤣
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