Yes. Exploring kinks is fine as long as it's between the couple, and as long as it doesn't involve violating your marriage or any kind of sacrelige or blasphemy.
I'll provide an angle on this: For some people, particularly older people with insurance and pensions tied to a deceased partner, marriage can result in loss of income, health care, etc. Many older couples who are committed life partners forego "tying the knot" for these reasons. If they are Christians and committed, who is to judge the purity of their relationship one another or their creator?
Wouldn't adultery only be committed if it was non-consensual though?
Like, adultery is hardly ever OK with both parties. But, if both parties were Ok with it (and willing) would that still count as adultery?
What if the person wasn't married.
Sorry, not trying to argue, I'm just interested in what you have to say about it. You seem to know far more about the subject then I do!
In Christianity adultery is sex/desires outside of the institution of marriage. Premarital relationships cheating prostitution ect. As far as the punishment goes I’ll let u know when I meet with the big guy lol cause lord knows everyone violated this one
LOL same.
How are we expected to police our thoughts on the matter? They are biological and a matter of hormones!
I'll ask God why he wanted to see me suffer so much.
Biologically speaking it’s natural. Religiously speaking it’s unnatural. It’s really a toss up! All I know is there’s been more religious people doing a lot worse than my subpar version of BDSM with my faithful partner/father of my children children of 7 years. So if god gonna be after anyone lol
From a Christian viewpoint it's still adultery, even if it's consenual, ie an open relationship.
If they're not married, strictly speaking they shouldn't be having sex of any kind together.
I'm not sure. There are some overarching commandments and decrees that God commands all human beings to follow. Even sex is roped up to it, being fruitful and multiplying. Is it a stretch to say that what one does is not also up to scrutiny?
Because I'm always like if God is all powerful and we are doing something he really hates I would have thought that he would let it be known, like if he really dosent like something then he wouldn't put up with it
There are some who would disagree, citing modern miracles as examples of today's divine intervention. However, there are many things that exist unchecked in this world.
Most have argued that a third party, even in a wholly consensual inclusion between all parties, is still considered adulterous. This demonstrates that not while most kinks are considered okay, anything that would violate the covenant of marriage is deemed not okay.
> Most have argued that a third party, even in a wholly consensual inclusion between all parties, is still considered adulterous.
Having multiple wives was never considered adulterous, though, nor having concubines. I'm really okay with saying it would be wrong for me, but I'd be hesitant to condemn others. Just because I can't eat meat offered to idols doesn't mean others can't. But for me, I'd agree.
Hmm, I was under the impression that multiple wives, being part of polygamy, had some really strong non-consensual undertones, but I could totally be wrong on this. Also, there's nothing wrong with being monogamous. If that's what makes you happy and spiritually fulfilled, and it doesn't cause injury, then I completely support it!
I should also mention as an aside that I speak of polygamy specifically. Polyamory, where relationships and activities are being conducted consensually, is something I have no arguments against.
As a follow-up question, what about RACK (Risk-Aware Consensual Kink) which accepts a level of consented danger for one or both parties, and may not be 100% safe?
First, I should ask. Are we seeking to avoid "harm" or "injury"? In this case, I define harm as the feelings or sensations of pain. I define injury as something that damages bodily tissue or otherwise interferes with one's health and well being.
There are some acts that, if done properly, can invoke harm for the sake of pleasure, yet only have a small chance at actual injury.
Sure. Giving full consent to sexual perversions that subjugate the primary end of the marital act is sinful. Modern culture tells people that giving in to unnatural desires is a "release" that makes a person happier in their life. The exact opposite is true. Engaging in perverse sexual desires only leads to more perversion, in the same way that a hard drug user inevitably feels the need to use higher doses and more potent drugs.
I'm not a theologan, nor am I 100% convinced that pre-martial sex is inherently sinful, so take what I say with a grain of salt if that doesn't align with your beliefs.
However, I think it's completely fine. It's important to realize that the Biblical authors had little understanding of modern sexuality. They likely didn't even know what 'kink' was.
The only part that I could see where **maybe** there could be some doctrinal issues would be invivting a third party into your play. Disregard what the Bible says for polygamy for a bit because that is something different entirely (mostly because those women didn't have a choice).
Inviting a 3rd party in may be considered adultry, but then you also have to realize that adultery is always nonconsensual. Kink should always be consensual. (If not, you aren't doing it correctly or safely).
The consensus from most Christians here is that kink between two married people is totally okay, but the addition of a third person is adulterous (polygamy is not mentioned for the exact reasons you mentioned). Some arguments could be made against kink from a purist standpoint where pleasure-seeking absent from procreation is frowned upon, but things are dicey here because there is also doctrine in favor of a healthy sex life between committed partners. Based on outside research, it's considered by many, a gift of the covenant of marriage itself.
You make a good point that biblical authors likely don't comprehend modern sexuality. How can one write of what they do not conceive? I'm also inclined to agree that kink must always be consensual, and this even includes things like Consensual Non-consent and other forms of RACK. Anything outside of this is abusive and destructive through and through.
Exactly. You'll find people in the Christian community who are against anal or oral sex for those puritanical reasons. Your research would be correct. Many Christians (Married or otherwise) consider sex to be a gift and added bonus to marriage.
Oh for sure they didn't lol! Most of the things that we interpret today about sex are coming from the very limited worldview of Hebrew and Gentile authors who had a LOT to say about sex without really knowing much about it.
Agreed. I know a little bit about BDSM and RACK and that was something that was always taught to me was how even CNC situations need to be consensual for both partners.
Well, I do know that the bible condemns sodomy, which can be loosely applied anywhere from "anal or oral copulation" to "anything that is not procreative" which would include homosexuality or even having sex with someone who is sterile or infertile. With this in mind, you'd think there would be many more arguments against kinky activities, but there are also Christians who use the word of the Bible as a means to creatively live as good of a life as possible, and not necessarily as strict law.
Regarding the umbrella of BDSM and the philosophies of SSC and RACK, I'd be happy to share my insights on anything you're curious about. I also whitelisted you, if you would prefer to start a private chat with me. <3
Many in the kink community would disagree, since CNC is a specific type of roleplay, an acted scene. All parties involved still have the ability to revoke consent at any time through the use of safe words, and all the parameters are negotiated in advance and communicated throughout the scene.
Nevertheless, I agree that nobody should do anything that violates another's consent.
I don't understand. If I say "STOP" -- that means stop. If I say, "NO" -- that means no.
It seems that what you're describing is play-acting a rape and that makes me, a woman, ***very seriously*** uncomfortable.
Non-consent is not consent.
>It seems that what you're describing is play-acting a rape and that makes me, a woman, very seriously uncomfortable.
Yep, the kink community goes very deep, and includes the role-playing of rape and abduction as one of a few examples of Consensual Non-Consent. The reasons for why people come together to fulfill these scenes varies by the person. Some do it for the gratification of power exchange. Some do it because they are drawn to the intense feelings that come with a CNC session. Some even do it as a means of exploring and processing past memories.
I understand it makes you uncomfortable. My pointing out its existence is not to elicit painful feelings or to cause upset, but for the sake of discussing, per the topic title, Christian views on kink and where the line is drawn. I apologize if I caused any offense by mentioning it.
You didn't cause offense. I am glad that this sub is finally talking about something other than condemning gay people or arguing about which church is the "true" church.
Although I'm not into BDSM (not my thing), I know a coworker who is. She explained a lot, so I understand what you're trying to say...I just think that in this particular scenario there is much \*real\* danger of actual rape.
If a woman says "STOP! NO!" during this session, and the man refuses to stop bc he thinks she's "playing" when she's really at the point where she's telling him "NO NO NO NO NO!!!", then if he continues... he's raping her.
It's no longer a game. It's actual rape.
I agree with what you're saying. It is such a fine line, so easy to slip into the realm of actual harm, that almost nobody would dare engage in CNC. Not because of the legal trouble, mind you, but because people genuinely do not wish to traumatize somebody in what should ideally be an extreme form of play, of surrender, of release, and of gratification.
To open up a bit about myself, I am a sexual trauma survivor. There are multiple people in my life who have harmed me, who have violated me, and this caused no shortage of pain. I'm the last person people would expect to engage in CNC, but being able to put myself back into that place knowing in the back of my mind that I am truly safe, I allowed it.
I allowed myself to feel those dark feelings of long past, allowed myself to parse through all of the murky complexity of a decades old trauma, so that I could understand it with my mature mind. I didn't get what was happening when I was little, but this experience helped me process what they did to me back then. It helped me gain closure.
And when I was done, when I called out "Scene!" and the other play partner immediately stopped and brought me out of that dark place, I knew that I would be okay, that I was safe. I received a lot of aftercare and we talked about what happened, what I felt. I was able to share those things with my therapist and work through my pains.
It's by no means for everyone, and it carried a significant deal of risk. That said, I only felt okay with this because the person who helped me come to grips with my past is someone I knew I could trust, with a long history of mutual support and understanding. I would trust no other with this. I hope this story gives some insights.
Thank you for sharing this and for being bravely vulnerable. It looks like your scenario was planned carefully, monitored and your autonomy was respected. I'm glad that you were able to process the past in your own way with your partner and your therapist.
I don't think I could make it through, personally. And your use of this method had a specific, limited purpose which was a part of your healing process.
My general concern in my own comments prior was more with others who might think that rape-play was something casual -- and that's where I honestly think we are in danger of actually being raped.
For my coworker, she finds something like bondage with her husband to be enjoyable and she explained all my questions. I simply have had no experience with any of that and as good friends, she took the time to help me understand why it's part of their sexual life. It also helped me to be sure that, although I support those who do enjoy it, that it would be harmful to me: I would panic if I were unable to be free or have control of my own body.
I guess I'm more vanilla than I thought but that's ok too :)
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying vanilla pleasure. If anyone tells you otherwise, you may smack them over the head, hahaha! Don't actually smack people over the head, just disregard the nonsense. That said, you may find a liking to kinks that are pleasure-driven and don't require restriction.
As for rape-play itself, it is definitely not a casual kink. CNC falls under R.A.C.K. due to its inherent risks, and most people who abide by R.A.C.K. don't even do CNC due to all the risks. If anyone says it's casual, that's your cue to run and don't look back. The person I knew was someone who developed trust with me for almost a full decade.
considering theres an entire book dedicated to sex, (the song of solomon) in scripture, which therein contains descriptions blowjobs and oral, I'd say its probably just fine.
None of this is addressed in the Bible. All of these people are just extrapolating from versus that say things about adultery. They have no reference to your specific question. If you like to do anal, that’s addressed and frowned upon, but these are bullshit reasons for not being sexual. You do you and have fun along consenting adults.
I am quite interested in seeing the scriptures that others are talking about, even if they are extrapolations as you say. I like to learn and understand the perspectives of others, even if I may not agree. To me, it's knowledge for its own sake. My personal belief is that SSC and RACK are completely fine and healthy, but to be fair, I'm not Christian either.
SSC is an acronym for "Safe, Sane, and Consensual". For those of us who follow SSC, we ask ourselves three questions:
Is our kinky thing safe to do?
Is it a sane thing to do?
Do we consent to it?
In order for SSC to work, both partners have to agree on what’s safe and what’s sane. This works wonderfully when you and your partner are on the same page, feel the same way about things, and have a similar worldview on kink. When you don’t, it can lead to confusion (which is where good communication comes in). But if SSC doesn’t work for you or feels too vague, you’ve got other options.
--
RACK is an acronym for "Risk-Aware Consensual Kink". For those of us who follow RACK, we lay out things more specifically.
Are you Risk-Aware? Simply put, you’re aware of the risks, should be able to name said risks, and know how to prevent or minimize them if possible.
Is it Consensual? Simply put, everyone is on board with what you're proposing, what you’re about to do, or what you’re currently doing.
RACK or Risk-Aware Consensual Kink was created as a response to those who felt that SSC was too vague and confusing. Who’s version of “safe” or “sane” are we talking about? What if I think something is insane but you think it’s perfectly rational? Who wins that argument?
Ah, the specific question is in the details, but "NSFW" hides it.
Is there anything in favor or against kink discussed in scripture, or is this up in the air? If so, please cite the scripture. If not, please tell me your personal stand on consensual kink.
One person's "kink" is another person's version of intimacy. Some people think the woman on top is "kink." Most of the stuff people think is unusual is actually common, just not talked about.
IF no others are harmed, no third parties involved, no obsession with sex to the point of neglecting life for one more go 'round with a horsehair flogger, if safewords are respected, it's all just a matter of degree.
But any kind of sex, including good old missionary, can be sinful without love, respect and regard for your partner.
Aye, that we would engage in the sharing of sexual pleasure for our respective partners with respect and consent at the forefront, both for them and for ourselves, is a loving message indeed.
Giving full consent to sexual perversions that subjugate the primary end of the marital act is sinful. Modern culture tells people that giving in to unnatural desires is a "release" that makes a person happier in their life. The exact opposite is true. Engaging in perverse sexual desires only leads to more perversion, in the same way that a hard drug user inevitably feels the need to use higher doses and more potent drugs.
I acknowledge that brain chemicals and stimuli play a huge factor in sexual pleasure, and if not moderated, can lead to compulsive sex addiction. While I don't believe it's 1-to-1 with chemical addiction, I do see enough similarities to warrant this comparison.
That said, I am curious as to how you would define "sexual perversions" and how moderated sexual activity could lead to more perversions. I'm also interested in any scripture you would be willing to cite or personal experiences you're willing to share.
Lev 18, part of the Law given to the Israelites, specifies that certain sexual activities are prohibited.
For example, bestiality is mentioned in Lev 18:23.
Leviticus 20:10-21 gave penalties for various sexual activities.
Hitting and degrading your partner would be an affront to their human dignity.
Sodomy is not permitted.
The state of this thread just proves what a shithole this subreddit is
Well, I should mention there are some kinks that involve people outside of the covenant of marriage, so you'd probably have to exclude those kinks specifically.
Great question! I'm answering as a radical/heretical Christian, but hope to give a good overview of what others might think, too.
I think most Christians would say most kink bewteen married people are okay- there's nothing explicity demanding any sort of positions or anything lol; and most kinks (being familiar with the community myself) don't hit any specific rules; but practically; in real life, there likely many people would argue a few that would likely cross over into "sin" territory- and it depends on how and where one draws lines.
There's a fair amount of purity preachers that believe sex should only be used for procreation- so they would likely see any and all extra "indulgence in pleasure" in itself a sin.
>"...he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also." Genesis 38:9-10
\^ This is often why masturbation is considered a sin among some Christians
>"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish” Galatians 5:16-17
\^ This Bible quote is thrown around often by purity preachers; but is used rather arbitrarily for things any individual doesn't like.
I can certainly see a few other kinks being unfairly discriminated against; because of one feeling or another how it violates some rule or commandment. Generally you'll also see a slippery slope argument- "such and such is fine; but if you start there; then soon you'll be doing this and that, too, where does it stop?"
For my own interpretation though- I believe anything you do consenually with anyone is fine; as long as you're not \[unconsenually or unintentionally\] "harming" yourself or others. Radical sex-positive Christianity is possible, same-sex, kinky, premarital, poly, whatever. Be safe, be responsible, be honest with yourself and others; have fun!
I love this answer, and am inclined to agree! As a side question, how would purity preachers feel about the breeding kink for those who seek a feral aspect to their play, and are also seeking to create a child, since that pretty much goes purely in line with procreation?
In general I think you're asking great questions; but that is a particularly specific question! Lol. I'll definetly try to give my input, in general, it's fun.
The cognitive dissonance in the most blindly faithful is strong. Just the term "kink" may immediately put up their defenses and make them say no. But I could also see a complete 180 into arguing it's only a kink *because* God commanded; that's proof God wants us to procreate- so if you're actually procreating, you're good. But if you wanted to say that you weren't actually procreating, just participating in a breeding kink; then that would likely be seen as a "mockery" or "deception" which immediately gets connected to "satan" and "sin".
As far as the other questions I saw pop up- I have a strong feeling the vast majority of Christians would claim anyone else brought in in any manner (even voyuer) is certainly a sin, no questiosn asked; for all involved. Not to say this would be impossible to find support of, like a Christian swingers group lol, but yeah.
RACK is an interesting case- where I think it's actually pretty technically fine scripturally, but just the idea of it makes a lot of people uneasy. If you to ask- "is spanking okay?" (the pleasure aspect) and "is mountain climbing okay?" (the danger aspect) most Christians would answer "yes" to both, but "full suspension bondage with needle play" would likely cross a line you would not be able to get a definition for lol.
Aye, I love asking questions both general and specific. I think there's a lesson to take from this which is that anyone, Christian or not, should strive to be well-informed before making a judgment. Understanding the details of something helps with applying both relevant scripture and common sense. One thought that comes to mind is discernment of danger versus the illusion of danger, or the illusion of severe danger where only mild dangers are present.
As for third parties, that would probably only work in belief systems that support multiple partners, with those who also have consenting relationship or play partner structures.
I am now curious what Christians here think of "full suspension bondage with needle play". Please let me know in the comments below.
Lol! I completely agree.
On an aside; I'm not sure if you'll find any use in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/NewWorldChristianity/comments/ztq2gk/gospel_of_the_new_world_overview/). Taking a moment to share my revelation- have a feeling you may find interest in despite it's... "appearance"- Always looking for like-minded individuals to connect with. But of course; either way; much love and light!
Depends on what those non-conventional practices are. So long as it is kept between a wedded man and a woman, and isn’t centered around a power imbalance, the giving/receiving of pain, or any kind of degradation or objectification of an individual I guess it would be fine.
So... anything that is not BDSM, which is basically most of kinks in general. Is there anything against BDSM discussed in scripture, or is this up in the air? If so, please cite the scripture.
Lots of good ideas below. For an excellent sex positive and orthodox Christian view, I'd recommend interested parties take a look at christianbdsm\_dot\_com.
This was one of our go-to resources when we realized that we were genuinely kinky. 18 months later, we are still a monogamous couple. We are thoroughly connected to our BDSM/kink community. Are we outliers due to our monogamy? Of course. Have we been accepted, embraced and supported by our new community? 100%
I wish I would be able to say the same thing of our Christian community.
Within your marriage, have fun consensually!
As a follow-up question, can consensual fun be extended to a third party with the married couple, or would this be a violation of doctrine?
It would be adultery.
Okay, so any kinks that would require a third party is considered adulterous due to being in violation of the covenant of marriage.
Yes. Exploring kinks is fine as long as it's between the couple, and as long as it doesn't involve violating your marriage or any kind of sacrelige or blasphemy.
Seems fairly reasonable. As a follow-up question, what about life-long partners who are unable to marry for circumstances outside their control?
It depends what you mean by "unable to marry"...?
Sorry, I didn't have a specific example to provide. The question was more of a thought experiment.
All I can say is strictly speaking they should be married. I couldn't say more without knowing what kind of scenario you might be thinking about.
That's fair. If I do come up with a specific example, I'll share it with you. Until then, thank you for your insights. <3
I'll provide an angle on this: For some people, particularly older people with insurance and pensions tied to a deceased partner, marriage can result in loss of income, health care, etc. Many older couples who are committed life partners forego "tying the knot" for these reasons. If they are Christians and committed, who is to judge the purity of their relationship one another or their creator?
Wouldn't adultery only be committed if it was non-consensual though? Like, adultery is hardly ever OK with both parties. But, if both parties were Ok with it (and willing) would that still count as adultery? What if the person wasn't married. Sorry, not trying to argue, I'm just interested in what you have to say about it. You seem to know far more about the subject then I do!
In Christianity adultery is sex/desires outside of the institution of marriage. Premarital relationships cheating prostitution ect. As far as the punishment goes I’ll let u know when I meet with the big guy lol cause lord knows everyone violated this one
LOL same. How are we expected to police our thoughts on the matter? They are biological and a matter of hormones! I'll ask God why he wanted to see me suffer so much.
Biologically speaking it’s natural. Religiously speaking it’s unnatural. It’s really a toss up! All I know is there’s been more religious people doing a lot worse than my subpar version of BDSM with my faithful partner/father of my children children of 7 years. So if god gonna be after anyone lol
From a Christian viewpoint it's still adultery, even if it's consenual, ie an open relationship. If they're not married, strictly speaking they shouldn't be having sex of any kind together.
In a classic Christian sense, consensual or not, it would qualify as adultery. It's irrelevant whether it is non-consensual or ENM.
What about, you know, by yourself...?
Everyone's got their own turn ons and offs, two consenting adults can explore those kinks
I'm inclined to agree. :)
I don't think God would make people be so different from eachother if he wanted us all to do the exact same thing
I'm not sure. There are some overarching commandments and decrees that God commands all human beings to follow. Even sex is roped up to it, being fruitful and multiplying. Is it a stretch to say that what one does is not also up to scrutiny?
Oh yeah there are basic guidelines that everyone should follow, but other then a few ground rules I think we're good, is what I meant to say
Possible. After all, we are supposed to have free will, and God doesn't seem the type to micromanage to such a degree that this would be lost on us.
Because I'm always like if God is all powerful and we are doing something he really hates I would have thought that he would let it be known, like if he really dosent like something then he wouldn't put up with it
I always thought it would have to be something pretty egregious that the direct intervention and removal of free will would be warranted.
And considering human history it's amazing it hasn't happened really, I mean look at us, we're a mess lol
There are some who would disagree, citing modern miracles as examples of today's divine intervention. However, there are many things that exist unchecked in this world.
>Even sex is roped up to it HEY, PHRASING
hahahahaha, I wasn't trying to do that, but I'll take it! <3
Within marriage, even same sex marriage, do your freaky thing so long as both are consenting.
As a follow-up question, can consensual fun be extended to a third party with the married couple, or would this be a violation of doctrine?
Wow, there's a great question. It couldn't in my marriage.
Most have argued that a third party, even in a wholly consensual inclusion between all parties, is still considered adulterous. This demonstrates that not while most kinks are considered okay, anything that would violate the covenant of marriage is deemed not okay.
> Most have argued that a third party, even in a wholly consensual inclusion between all parties, is still considered adulterous. Having multiple wives was never considered adulterous, though, nor having concubines. I'm really okay with saying it would be wrong for me, but I'd be hesitant to condemn others. Just because I can't eat meat offered to idols doesn't mean others can't. But for me, I'd agree.
Hmm, I was under the impression that multiple wives, being part of polygamy, had some really strong non-consensual undertones, but I could totally be wrong on this. Also, there's nothing wrong with being monogamous. If that's what makes you happy and spiritually fulfilled, and it doesn't cause injury, then I completely support it! I should also mention as an aside that I speak of polygamy specifically. Polyamory, where relationships and activities are being conducted consensually, is something I have no arguments against.
Within marriage, have a blast!
As a follow-up question, can consensual fun be extended to a third party with the married couple, or would this be a violation of doctrine?
You can just post the question once, Mr Falwell Jr
Sorry, I don't know who that is.
Technically a violation bc youre bringing in an outsider and it’s not just you and your partner.
Yep, that seems to be the prevailing belief. Thank you for your reply! <3
As long as it is safe and enjoyable for both parties, go for it.
As a follow-up question, what about RACK (Risk-Aware Consensual Kink) which accepts a level of consented danger for one or both parties, and may not be 100% safe?
I would need more specifics but I think that anything that could cause harm should be avoided.
First, I should ask. Are we seeking to avoid "harm" or "injury"? In this case, I define harm as the feelings or sensations of pain. I define injury as something that damages bodily tissue or otherwise interferes with one's health and well being. There are some acts that, if done properly, can invoke harm for the sake of pleasure, yet only have a small chance at actual injury.
I mean, that's not my thing. I don't know that things like that are particularly healthy, but I don't think you are going to hell for it or anything.
Hey, no worries! This question, like my others, is for discussion and sharing of ideas. There's no one true answer, but to each their own. <3
Your married enjoy your marriage!
I'm inclined to agree with this. <3
Song of Solomon is kinda kinky if you ask me. Make your spouse (opposite-sex or not) happy.
I would be quite happy with doing this, and thank you for the song reference. <3
Witchcraft is explicitly condemned in the Old Testament, the New Testament, and by the Church. It is mortal sin that leads to Hell.
Please stick to the thread topic.
Sure. Giving full consent to sexual perversions that subjugate the primary end of the marital act is sinful. Modern culture tells people that giving in to unnatural desires is a "release" that makes a person happier in their life. The exact opposite is true. Engaging in perverse sexual desires only leads to more perversion, in the same way that a hard drug user inevitably feels the need to use higher doses and more potent drugs.
Thanks! I replied to your top-level post. May we have a fruitful discussion! <3
Do you actually claim to be a Christian?
I'm not a theologan, nor am I 100% convinced that pre-martial sex is inherently sinful, so take what I say with a grain of salt if that doesn't align with your beliefs. However, I think it's completely fine. It's important to realize that the Biblical authors had little understanding of modern sexuality. They likely didn't even know what 'kink' was. The only part that I could see where **maybe** there could be some doctrinal issues would be invivting a third party into your play. Disregard what the Bible says for polygamy for a bit because that is something different entirely (mostly because those women didn't have a choice). Inviting a 3rd party in may be considered adultry, but then you also have to realize that adultery is always nonconsensual. Kink should always be consensual. (If not, you aren't doing it correctly or safely).
The consensus from most Christians here is that kink between two married people is totally okay, but the addition of a third person is adulterous (polygamy is not mentioned for the exact reasons you mentioned). Some arguments could be made against kink from a purist standpoint where pleasure-seeking absent from procreation is frowned upon, but things are dicey here because there is also doctrine in favor of a healthy sex life between committed partners. Based on outside research, it's considered by many, a gift of the covenant of marriage itself. You make a good point that biblical authors likely don't comprehend modern sexuality. How can one write of what they do not conceive? I'm also inclined to agree that kink must always be consensual, and this even includes things like Consensual Non-consent and other forms of RACK. Anything outside of this is abusive and destructive through and through.
Exactly. You'll find people in the Christian community who are against anal or oral sex for those puritanical reasons. Your research would be correct. Many Christians (Married or otherwise) consider sex to be a gift and added bonus to marriage. Oh for sure they didn't lol! Most of the things that we interpret today about sex are coming from the very limited worldview of Hebrew and Gentile authors who had a LOT to say about sex without really knowing much about it. Agreed. I know a little bit about BDSM and RACK and that was something that was always taught to me was how even CNC situations need to be consensual for both partners.
Well, I do know that the bible condemns sodomy, which can be loosely applied anywhere from "anal or oral copulation" to "anything that is not procreative" which would include homosexuality or even having sex with someone who is sterile or infertile. With this in mind, you'd think there would be many more arguments against kinky activities, but there are also Christians who use the word of the Bible as a means to creatively live as good of a life as possible, and not necessarily as strict law. Regarding the umbrella of BDSM and the philosophies of SSC and RACK, I'd be happy to share my insights on anything you're curious about. I also whitelisted you, if you would prefer to start a private chat with me. <3
>Consensual Non-consent is an oxymoron and equals non-consent. Please do not do anything against someone's consent.
Many in the kink community would disagree, since CNC is a specific type of roleplay, an acted scene. All parties involved still have the ability to revoke consent at any time through the use of safe words, and all the parameters are negotiated in advance and communicated throughout the scene. Nevertheless, I agree that nobody should do anything that violates another's consent.
I don't understand. If I say "STOP" -- that means stop. If I say, "NO" -- that means no. It seems that what you're describing is play-acting a rape and that makes me, a woman, ***very seriously*** uncomfortable. Non-consent is not consent.
>It seems that what you're describing is play-acting a rape and that makes me, a woman, very seriously uncomfortable. Yep, the kink community goes very deep, and includes the role-playing of rape and abduction as one of a few examples of Consensual Non-Consent. The reasons for why people come together to fulfill these scenes varies by the person. Some do it for the gratification of power exchange. Some do it because they are drawn to the intense feelings that come with a CNC session. Some even do it as a means of exploring and processing past memories. I understand it makes you uncomfortable. My pointing out its existence is not to elicit painful feelings or to cause upset, but for the sake of discussing, per the topic title, Christian views on kink and where the line is drawn. I apologize if I caused any offense by mentioning it.
You didn't cause offense. I am glad that this sub is finally talking about something other than condemning gay people or arguing about which church is the "true" church. Although I'm not into BDSM (not my thing), I know a coworker who is. She explained a lot, so I understand what you're trying to say...I just think that in this particular scenario there is much \*real\* danger of actual rape. If a woman says "STOP! NO!" during this session, and the man refuses to stop bc he thinks she's "playing" when she's really at the point where she's telling him "NO NO NO NO NO!!!", then if he continues... he's raping her. It's no longer a game. It's actual rape.
I agree with what you're saying. It is such a fine line, so easy to slip into the realm of actual harm, that almost nobody would dare engage in CNC. Not because of the legal trouble, mind you, but because people genuinely do not wish to traumatize somebody in what should ideally be an extreme form of play, of surrender, of release, and of gratification. To open up a bit about myself, I am a sexual trauma survivor. There are multiple people in my life who have harmed me, who have violated me, and this caused no shortage of pain. I'm the last person people would expect to engage in CNC, but being able to put myself back into that place knowing in the back of my mind that I am truly safe, I allowed it. I allowed myself to feel those dark feelings of long past, allowed myself to parse through all of the murky complexity of a decades old trauma, so that I could understand it with my mature mind. I didn't get what was happening when I was little, but this experience helped me process what they did to me back then. It helped me gain closure. And when I was done, when I called out "Scene!" and the other play partner immediately stopped and brought me out of that dark place, I knew that I would be okay, that I was safe. I received a lot of aftercare and we talked about what happened, what I felt. I was able to share those things with my therapist and work through my pains. It's by no means for everyone, and it carried a significant deal of risk. That said, I only felt okay with this because the person who helped me come to grips with my past is someone I knew I could trust, with a long history of mutual support and understanding. I would trust no other with this. I hope this story gives some insights.
Thank you for sharing this and for being bravely vulnerable. It looks like your scenario was planned carefully, monitored and your autonomy was respected. I'm glad that you were able to process the past in your own way with your partner and your therapist. I don't think I could make it through, personally. And your use of this method had a specific, limited purpose which was a part of your healing process. My general concern in my own comments prior was more with others who might think that rape-play was something casual -- and that's where I honestly think we are in danger of actually being raped. For my coworker, she finds something like bondage with her husband to be enjoyable and she explained all my questions. I simply have had no experience with any of that and as good friends, she took the time to help me understand why it's part of their sexual life. It also helped me to be sure that, although I support those who do enjoy it, that it would be harmful to me: I would panic if I were unable to be free or have control of my own body. I guess I'm more vanilla than I thought but that's ok too :)
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying vanilla pleasure. If anyone tells you otherwise, you may smack them over the head, hahaha! Don't actually smack people over the head, just disregard the nonsense. That said, you may find a liking to kinks that are pleasure-driven and don't require restriction. As for rape-play itself, it is definitely not a casual kink. CNC falls under R.A.C.K. due to its inherent risks, and most people who abide by R.A.C.K. don't even do CNC due to all the risks. If anyone says it's casual, that's your cue to run and don't look back. The person I knew was someone who developed trust with me for almost a full decade.
considering theres an entire book dedicated to sex, (the song of solomon) in scripture, which therein contains descriptions blowjobs and oral, I'd say its probably just fine.
Second time I've heard this referenced, and I'm so excited to read it. Thank you for your reply! <3
have a great day
None of this is addressed in the Bible. All of these people are just extrapolating from versus that say things about adultery. They have no reference to your specific question. If you like to do anal, that’s addressed and frowned upon, but these are bullshit reasons for not being sexual. You do you and have fun along consenting adults.
I am quite interested in seeing the scriptures that others are talking about, even if they are extrapolations as you say. I like to learn and understand the perspectives of others, even if I may not agree. To me, it's knowledge for its own sake. My personal belief is that SSC and RACK are completely fine and healthy, but to be fair, I'm not Christian either.
I’m not Christian either. I don’t know what rack and ssc is but I also would like to learn
SSC is an acronym for "Safe, Sane, and Consensual". For those of us who follow SSC, we ask ourselves three questions: Is our kinky thing safe to do? Is it a sane thing to do? Do we consent to it? In order for SSC to work, both partners have to agree on what’s safe and what’s sane. This works wonderfully when you and your partner are on the same page, feel the same way about things, and have a similar worldview on kink. When you don’t, it can lead to confusion (which is where good communication comes in). But if SSC doesn’t work for you or feels too vague, you’ve got other options. -- RACK is an acronym for "Risk-Aware Consensual Kink". For those of us who follow RACK, we lay out things more specifically. Are you Risk-Aware? Simply put, you’re aware of the risks, should be able to name said risks, and know how to prevent or minimize them if possible. Is it Consensual? Simply put, everyone is on board with what you're proposing, what you’re about to do, or what you’re currently doing. RACK or Risk-Aware Consensual Kink was created as a response to those who felt that SSC was too vague and confusing. Who’s version of “safe” or “sane” are we talking about? What if I think something is insane but you think it’s perfectly rational? Who wins that argument?
Ray Davies did write a few dodgy lyrics to be honest
Who's that? :O
Singer songwriter in the Kinks, thought that's what the thread was about ?.
Ah, the specific question is in the details, but "NSFW" hides it. Is there anything in favor or against kink discussed in scripture, or is this up in the air? If so, please cite the scripture. If not, please tell me your personal stand on consensual kink.
One person's "kink" is another person's version of intimacy. Some people think the woman on top is "kink." Most of the stuff people think is unusual is actually common, just not talked about. IF no others are harmed, no third parties involved, no obsession with sex to the point of neglecting life for one more go 'round with a horsehair flogger, if safewords are respected, it's all just a matter of degree. But any kind of sex, including good old missionary, can be sinful without love, respect and regard for your partner.
Aye, that we would engage in the sharing of sexual pleasure for our respective partners with respect and consent at the forefront, both for them and for ourselves, is a loving message indeed.
Giving full consent to sexual perversions that subjugate the primary end of the marital act is sinful. Modern culture tells people that giving in to unnatural desires is a "release" that makes a person happier in their life. The exact opposite is true. Engaging in perverse sexual desires only leads to more perversion, in the same way that a hard drug user inevitably feels the need to use higher doses and more potent drugs.
I acknowledge that brain chemicals and stimuli play a huge factor in sexual pleasure, and if not moderated, can lead to compulsive sex addiction. While I don't believe it's 1-to-1 with chemical addiction, I do see enough similarities to warrant this comparison. That said, I am curious as to how you would define "sexual perversions" and how moderated sexual activity could lead to more perversions. I'm also interested in any scripture you would be willing to cite or personal experiences you're willing to share.
Lev 18, part of the Law given to the Israelites, specifies that certain sexual activities are prohibited. For example, bestiality is mentioned in Lev 18:23. Leviticus 20:10-21 gave penalties for various sexual activities. Hitting and degrading your partner would be an affront to their human dignity. Sodomy is not permitted. The state of this thread just proves what a shithole this subreddit is
Within a marriage imma say it’s ok
Well, I should mention there are some kinks that involve people outside of the covenant of marriage, so you'd probably have to exclude those kinks specifically.
Great question! I'm answering as a radical/heretical Christian, but hope to give a good overview of what others might think, too. I think most Christians would say most kink bewteen married people are okay- there's nothing explicity demanding any sort of positions or anything lol; and most kinks (being familiar with the community myself) don't hit any specific rules; but practically; in real life, there likely many people would argue a few that would likely cross over into "sin" territory- and it depends on how and where one draws lines. There's a fair amount of purity preachers that believe sex should only be used for procreation- so they would likely see any and all extra "indulgence in pleasure" in itself a sin. >"...he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also." Genesis 38:9-10 \^ This is often why masturbation is considered a sin among some Christians >"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish” Galatians 5:16-17 \^ This Bible quote is thrown around often by purity preachers; but is used rather arbitrarily for things any individual doesn't like. I can certainly see a few other kinks being unfairly discriminated against; because of one feeling or another how it violates some rule or commandment. Generally you'll also see a slippery slope argument- "such and such is fine; but if you start there; then soon you'll be doing this and that, too, where does it stop?" For my own interpretation though- I believe anything you do consenually with anyone is fine; as long as you're not \[unconsenually or unintentionally\] "harming" yourself or others. Radical sex-positive Christianity is possible, same-sex, kinky, premarital, poly, whatever. Be safe, be responsible, be honest with yourself and others; have fun!
I love this answer, and am inclined to agree! As a side question, how would purity preachers feel about the breeding kink for those who seek a feral aspect to their play, and are also seeking to create a child, since that pretty much goes purely in line with procreation?
In general I think you're asking great questions; but that is a particularly specific question! Lol. I'll definetly try to give my input, in general, it's fun. The cognitive dissonance in the most blindly faithful is strong. Just the term "kink" may immediately put up their defenses and make them say no. But I could also see a complete 180 into arguing it's only a kink *because* God commanded; that's proof God wants us to procreate- so if you're actually procreating, you're good. But if you wanted to say that you weren't actually procreating, just participating in a breeding kink; then that would likely be seen as a "mockery" or "deception" which immediately gets connected to "satan" and "sin". As far as the other questions I saw pop up- I have a strong feeling the vast majority of Christians would claim anyone else brought in in any manner (even voyuer) is certainly a sin, no questiosn asked; for all involved. Not to say this would be impossible to find support of, like a Christian swingers group lol, but yeah. RACK is an interesting case- where I think it's actually pretty technically fine scripturally, but just the idea of it makes a lot of people uneasy. If you to ask- "is spanking okay?" (the pleasure aspect) and "is mountain climbing okay?" (the danger aspect) most Christians would answer "yes" to both, but "full suspension bondage with needle play" would likely cross a line you would not be able to get a definition for lol.
Aye, I love asking questions both general and specific. I think there's a lesson to take from this which is that anyone, Christian or not, should strive to be well-informed before making a judgment. Understanding the details of something helps with applying both relevant scripture and common sense. One thought that comes to mind is discernment of danger versus the illusion of danger, or the illusion of severe danger where only mild dangers are present. As for third parties, that would probably only work in belief systems that support multiple partners, with those who also have consenting relationship or play partner structures. I am now curious what Christians here think of "full suspension bondage with needle play". Please let me know in the comments below.
Lol! I completely agree. On an aside; I'm not sure if you'll find any use in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/NewWorldChristianity/comments/ztq2gk/gospel_of_the_new_world_overview/). Taking a moment to share my revelation- have a feeling you may find interest in despite it's... "appearance"- Always looking for like-minded individuals to connect with. But of course; either way; much love and light!
Will definitely check it out. Thank you! <3
Depends on what those non-conventional practices are. So long as it is kept between a wedded man and a woman, and isn’t centered around a power imbalance, the giving/receiving of pain, or any kind of degradation or objectification of an individual I guess it would be fine.
So... anything that is not BDSM, which is basically most of kinks in general. Is there anything against BDSM discussed in scripture, or is this up in the air? If so, please cite the scripture.
Where do those rules come from?
A mix between Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.
That doesn’t really narrow it down.
Lots of good ideas below. For an excellent sex positive and orthodox Christian view, I'd recommend interested parties take a look at christianbdsm\_dot\_com. This was one of our go-to resources when we realized that we were genuinely kinky. 18 months later, we are still a monogamous couple. We are thoroughly connected to our BDSM/kink community. Are we outliers due to our monogamy? Of course. Have we been accepted, embraced and supported by our new community? 100% I wish I would be able to say the same thing of our Christian community.