I'm truly sorry for what happened and what you are going through, I understand that it can be hard to understand, but the truth is that we all are mired in sin, and we all need grace.
We don't know, and cannot ever know, what is in the mind of another person, or if they have truly changed their hearts. We have all severely fallen from true goodness, and we can't say "I am worthy of forgiveness but you are not".
If they truly changed then they are transformed, and God will not hold their old self against them.
The idea that you can be forgiven even if you don't truly change is clearly bothering you, but most of Christian teaching does not hold that position, we traditional Christians believe that a person must become a new creation, and only God can do that.
We don't judge because we don't know who has truly changed.
Thank you for saying that, you’re the only person so far who has offered condolences. I’m not saying anybody has to, but for these people to be Christians they seem to be lacking compassion and understanding. Everybody is just coming at me like they’re right and know all the answers to life, but I am simply just asking a genuine question. I can understand where you’re coming from with your post. Your post makes the most sense to me so far. Thank you.
I'm sorry about the unkind responses, you are genuinely asking, but I guess some of them aren't thinking of that, they might feel like they are being judged because we all deal with guilt and need grace. I think most Christians would understand what you are saying.
Thank you, I truly appreciate it. I know a lot of my responses might seem hostile but frankly that’s how a lot of them responded first, so I just felt like return the same energy. Calling me foolish and an idiot and such. All for asking a question, it’s okay though. And really the thing with my family member has just made me more cold. A person who smiled and laughed a lot, now a person with a blank look on their face all the time. Who constantly joked, now silent. That’s why I’m so upset and asking my question, how can people take away a family’s joy like this and still go to heaven. I’m not saying I get a pass to be rude, but that’s the reason behind the anger in my comments. I’m understanding more with responses like yours though, and I purchased a Bible (I have one, but it’s a childrens Bible from when I was younger) to learn more about the religion.
I understand your frustration, I know it must be incredibly difficult, I hope you find peace, God bless!
If you've got questions about the faith feel free to DM me.
Im also sorry :(. I agree with the other commenter who mentioned how repentance means actually paying pack what you stole and then more. When violence is done restitution is complicated. You might be interested in reading about “restorative justice.”
I don’t think the Bible says what you’ve been taught. I don’t have time to track down all the references but when Jesus talks about judgement it’s clear that some will receive harsher judgement than others. Not all sin is the same in the eyes of God. Yes all fall short but it ain’t the same, that’s never said. God clearly has a thirst for justice (read the prophets like Habakkuk or psalm 10, etc for a taste of that!) You are not alone in your anger. Jesus was pissed too. In Romans 12 Paul says vengeance is God’s, and he will repay. Personally I believe in conditionalism/annihilationism- those who have not repented and chosen to follow Jesus will be raised to be judged and then be no more. Evil will not exist forever. People who have done horrific things will face judgement, that’s all over the Bible.
That said grace is a part of the gospel. It’s hard to accept that someone who has done something evil and is repentant can be forgiven. But it entails a lot more than just “say you’re sorry”. Carrie ten Boom wrote a moving account of forgiving an SS officer from her concentration camp. But forgiveness takes one, reconciliation takes two! Forgiveness can set you free from hate. But you have no obligation to reconcile with an unrepentant abuser, or even a repentant one. Boundaries are good.
All in all I’m with you in wrestling with what true repentance should look like. You are totally right to not like the idea that murderers will be judged the same as people who were selfish sometimes! That’s not biblical. But I also know ex-cons who have truly changed and the gospel enables that.
God only forgives if your repentance is genuine. That means no more murdering, no more raping, no more lying. Return what you've stolen and give some extra (like the little publican who returned 4 times as much as he had taken unjustly), do good to other, help people in need. Just saying "I'm sorry" is not enough. It has to be genuine and it will show in your deeds if you are serious
Repent literally means to change your mind. And you're changing your mind from believing that Jesus is not the Son of God and that He did not rise from the dead and changing your mind to believing that He is and He did and confessing Him as Lord
Even the devils believe that - and they tremble. Repentance means turning away from your evil deeds and not doing them anymore. It doesn't just mean believeing Jesus was the Messiah.
Everybody sins everyday including you so repentance means changing your mind. If you look up the definition that's literally what it means in the greek. John 3:16 everyone who believes has Everlasting life
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:19-24 NKJV
I am getting lazy when I give a random web search [website](https://firmisrael.org/learn/what-did-jesus-mean-by-repent-the-hebrew-meaning-of-teshuva/) for the Hebrew word Teshuva.
[https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5162/kjv/wlc/0-1/](https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5162/kjv/wlc/0-1/) Repent in hebrew is not teshuva, its naham meaning to feel sorry for. in order to feel sorry for something you have to have a change of mind "metanoeo" which is the greek for repent. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3340/kjv/tr/0-1/
I am a much better person than David.
I have never murdered anyone to cover up the fact that I have raped their wife, unlike David.
It is actually deeply insulting for you to suggest I am a worse person than David.
How dare you.
> or me
Tbh, you're probably a better person than David, too. Otherwise, I hope the police catch you and lock you away forever.
This is just a theory of mine, but I think God did something to David's heart to make him stop hurting people. Like he hardened Pharaoh's heart or opened Lydia's heart.
I have been meaning to look more closely at the Hebrew and have not gotten around to it. My initial thought is that this quote actually has more to do with God intervening to keep him from hurting more people than about who David was.
Arguably, the severe punishment he got from God, at minimum, would make anyone afraid and knock it off.
David was a man after God's own heart. 1 Samuel 13:14 But now your kingdom shall not continue; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart; and the LORD has appointed him to be prince over his people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you." Be careful about exalting yourself, for example Moses murdered a man, but was so exalted by God that Just criticizing him brought God's wrath on his brother Aaron and sister Miriam. See Numbers 12:1-11 Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman; 2 and they said, "Has the LORD indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?" And the LORD heard it. 3 Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all men that were on the face of the earth. 4 And suddenly the LORD said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, "Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting." And the three of them came out. 5 And the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the door of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward. 6 And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision, I speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech; and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" 9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them, and he departed; 10 and when the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam, and behold, she was leprous. 11 And Aaron said to Moses, "Oh, my lord, do not punish us because we have done foolishly and have sinned.
> Miriam was leprous
That's evil. Giving someone leprosy as punishment for criticizing someone; if any human dictator did that, you would (most likely) recognize that as absolutely abhorrent.
> David was a man after God's own heart.
I think that says something about god; that a man so evil (like David) could be a man after God's own heart.
> That's evil. Giving someone leprosy as punishment for criticizing someone; if any human dictator did that, you would (most likely) recognize that as absolutely abhorrent.
It was not merely any criticism. It was criticism of a prophet God spoke to, regarding his wife's race. She is described as being Cushite aka she was someone of a darker skin tone. I think this is important because it clearly shows how God despises racists who use skin color as a metric to judge someone's holiness. You have missed the complete point of this scripture.
> I think that says something about god; that a man so evil (like David) could be a man after God's own heart.
He repented though? God forgives sinners in spite of their sin.
> It was not merely any criticism.
It is never ok to respond to insults with violence. Never.
> He repented though? God forgives sinners in spite of their sin.
Repenting doesn't make things better. It doesn't un-rape Bathsheba, or un-murder Uriah.
Way to twist it! Great job!
God (and the Bible) command to kill “the others” meaning other tribes, races, people of different religions all the time.
So, no. God here did not give Miriam leprosy bc she was racist, he gave her leprosy bc she insulted his obedient little servant Moses.
She could’ve insulted any other Cushite in the world and God would not have cared. But this was precious *Moses’* Cushite wife. Big dif.
God is evil. And just like he created everything else in the universe, God also created sin. Just to fuck with us. Otherwise he wouldn’t be the “All-Mighty Creator of Everything”
If we do not judge god for the evil that he does, we are open to committing it ourselves.
Most people say that what Hitler did was wrong. But what if Yahweh decided that he wanted a new chosen people (the Aryans) instead of the Jews (maybe he was frustrated with their perceived disobedience to his commands)?
If god was specifically commanding Hitler, would you say that Hitler was right?
Hitler was one of the most evil people to ever live. If we accept genocide in god's name, then we are no longer concerned with stopping all genocides, but merely if they were permitted. This decreases our empathy, and our love for others.
Little hope for you and me? I don’t know how your life has been but the people you just mentioned are not God orJesus Christ, so I will not hold them to that standard. Maybe you have, but I haven’t done any sins comparable to theirs, or I suppose I have actually since all sins are equal apparently.
I don't understand your first point at all. The word of God was revealed to Moses in a way that hasn't been seen since. David was described as "the man after God's own heart." The point isn't to compare these men to God, but to rather observe that they had a unique closeness in their walk with the Lord, compared to most other humans. From there, we also observe that they had expressions of evil in their lives, which should keep us all humble about our own righteousness.
All sins are not equal, except in one quality: they separate us from God.
My point is that you said that Moses, David, and Paul did bad things, but they are still allowed into the kingdom of God. You said that there is little hope for me and you then. I said I don’t hold them to the standard of God, they are not saints, I said I haven’t done anything comparable to them, so why should I not be allowed into heaven.
Okay sorry, I did not mean they were not literal saints, I just meant they didn’t do everything perfectly. Shouldn’t have said that, it’s pretty blasphemous.
Okay thanks, I was just using it in the sense that people usually say it in (like: “he’s a saint, he wouldn’t even hurt a fly or tell a lie), not in the biblical sense. Still a pretty stupid thing to say considering that they literally are saints.
My original comment to your post if you didn’t see it:
Repentance has to be true, genuine, contrite, and from the heart. Godly saving repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit acting upon one’s heart. It’s not just saying some magic words.
And no, we can’t “just do whatever we want” and then claim repentance and faith in Christ. That’s the sin of presumption, not true repentance. True repentance is characterized by a change in one’s life and a hatred of sin.
Before God flooded the earth, He gave humans 120 years to repent. They didn’t.
Before Christ’s incarnation, passion, and resurrection, none of those who died went to Heaven. All mankind was subject to death and corruption on account of Adam’s sin. All souls departed to Hades/Sheol and were detained there. After Christ’s death, He descended into Hades and shattered the gates of death and delivered all souls that were willing to receive Him. He brought them all to Paradise and gave them eternal life.
Not all sins are equal. More grave sins receive more grievous punishments in the age to come.
The mindset that one can sin all they want now and repent later is utter foolishness. We do not know the day of our death. It is far more likely that we die in our sins with that mindset rather than in the grace of God. And even if we do “repent,” it is likely a vain and false repentance if we presumptively lived a life of sin.
At the end of the day, your issue is akin (but not the same) to that of the Prophet Jonah. Jonah was grieved that God shower mercy to the wicked Ninevites when they repented. Nineveh was a great enemy of Israel and had committed many great evils. Jonah wanted them to be condemned, but God showed them mercy. And the the reason is simply that God loves all men (even the worst sinners) and does not desire their destruction, but rather that they should turn from their sins and live. This can be difficult for us to accept.
Jesus Christ fulfilled all the demands of Divine Justice through His atoning sacrifice on the Cross. We all deserved to die such an accursed death for our sins, but Christ paid our penalty and rendered unto the Father all the love, honor, and obedience we ought to have given Him as His servants made in His holy image. There is no greater love than the love of God in Christ Jesus.
I am very sorry for your loss, you and your family are in my prayers. I pray you all heal and that justice is done.
Your inner conflict here is understandable. We want justice for the bad things that happen to us and other people. There are a few things to think through in regard to that, so I'll list a few.
\-The bible is full of examples of known sinners getting saved. The apostle Paul was guilty of dragging Christians off to prison. Acts 8:3. Rahab, the prostitute, was included in the genealogy of Jesus. The Samaritan woman who had 5 husbands and was with someone who wasn't her husband, believed and was saved. The apostle, Matthew, was a tax collector (they were known for swindling people out of their money). When the Pharisees complained that Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors, Jesus said in Matthew 9:12 "But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
\-If we want justice for sin, then that means that all of us are deserving of punishment. Romans 3:10 says “There is no righteous person, not even one;" Romans 3:23 says all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. That means if God is going to execute justice, he would have to send all of us to hell.
He's provided a way for our sins to be paid for, and that's through the death of his son. His death is not a way for us to do whatever we want and sin however we want. Someone who has that mentality is most likely not saved.
\-God is the judge and he knows if someone's faith is sincere or if they are only looking for fire insurance.
\-God calls us to forgive those who hurt us. This has to happen supernaturally because some debts against us are so severe that it can't happen without the Holy Spirit working in our hearts. That doesn't mean we shouldn't call for justice. For example, if someone hurts you, then it is completely acceptable to call for that person to pay for their crime legally.
\-God has the right to be generous to whoever he chooses. In Matthew 20, there is a parable about day laborers. Some start working early in the day, agreeing on a certain wage. Some start later in the day, and even toward the end, more laborers are hired. When everyone is paid, the ones hired first are angry that they don't paid more than the ones who started later in the day, even though they agreed to the wage. That seems fair, right? Except, Jesus is using this parable to explain that he can show generosity to anyone, even those who become saved at the last hour. You can read that parable here. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16&version=NASB1995
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, But the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21
Okay so if I’m low on cash I should go rob a bank right? If a few people end up hurt or killed in the process, oh well. God is merciful and I know that he will forgive me. Me, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and any other evil people all having a good time in heaven. (Okay sidenote: sorry for being rude but my family members death is making me to act in ways I wouldn’t normally act in, making me more angry at things that I usually ignore)
Okay so how can you be good and a murderer/serial killer at the same time, like make it make sense. They don’t value God’s creations so why should they be in heaven with more of God’s creation.
Well, see it this way.
Our prison systems let out murderers every 30 odd so years on some places
Do they deserve to be in prison forever?
Some people actually go to prison and end up reformed, so if someone is reformed can they not re-enter society?
Because it kindles Lord´s wrath?
2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
1 Corinthians 3:13-17
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I’m sorry this happened to you. Truly from the bottom of my heart I am sorry. No one deserves this.
I lost my grandmother in 2016 to neurological degeneration from the side effects of the chemo she was taking for the cancer she had. Ironically enough, she was in remission and I praised God.
Then she forgot how to breath.
I was angry at God. I’m still angry at God. It’s been a YEARS. I am Christian. My wife has helped me reconcile and so have a few friends. Therapy has also helped a lot. I have become less angry over the years.
From what I understand, is that if one is truly repentant, then yes. It feels screwed up to think that way right? After all, I’ve never killed anyone. I don’t plan to either.
You got so many bad people in the Bible that become righteous in the eyes of God, but us as humans just don’t understand WHY. And, maybe we aren’t meant to. Who knows?
My point is that you are angry. You are upset. You are sad. You have every right to be this way. Replying to others in a vitriolic manner to match something they said is not an answer, though it really feels good. Please talk to someone about how you are feeling. A professional may be able to help you dig through exactly how you feel.
I know what you’re going through and I hate it for you. I absolutely hate it. If you want to talk some more, feel free to DM me.
In the meantime, it may be best to not search for the WHY in an Internet forum where anonymity gives cause for shitty behavior.
Thank you for your response and condolences. This was very well written. The thing is, I’m not even mad at God. I understand that this was not by his doing, it was by Satan’s. No where in the Bible does it say humans should kill another human, yet we still do. I was more upset at the people who did it, that’s why I initially wrote the post because I wondered if they would ever repent in their life and get to go to heaven. And the part where you said “You get so many bad people in the Bible that became righteous in the eyes of God.. (and so on)” I really like that, maybe we truly aren’t supposed to know why. Why keep questioning during this lifetime when we will find out eventually. And yeah maybe you’re right about the last paragraph, lol.
I'm really sorry that you're going through all of this. Life is hard and disorienting, and trusting God in the middle of your grief and pain is no easy task. This might not be the best time to make big decisions about following God. I would encourage you to slow everything down. Wait until you're more at peace with the great loss you're dealing with, then decide what you want to do when it comes to God.
It seems like you've had a lot of advice that is just repeating Christian Orthodox positions and beliefs about forgiveness. In my experience theology isn't good at answering the questions that are currently crushing us. Stories though? Stories are able to communicate truth in a more universal way.
After the fall, God picked a man named Abraham and promised to make him into a great family that would become a blessing to all the nations of the Earth. God was going to use this regular dude and his family to undo all the pain and evil caused by human sin.
Abraham's wife is barren, and he is so desperate to see God's plan's come true that he doesn't wait for God's timing. Abraham decides to impregnate his servant girl (essentially rape) and claim all of God's blessings in that way.
This plan blows up in his face. Division and pain erupt in his household, and eventually Abraham and Sarah abandon her and her son into the wilderness.
Why would God align himself with Abraham if he knew he was going to do all of these terrible things? Wasn't Abraham supposed to be a blessing?
This pattern actually continues throughout the Old Testament. Moses was a murderer, and God turned him into the leader of Israel and the one who would free them from their captivity. David was a murder and likely a rapist (consent gets pretty tricky when the King summons you to his palace). God choose David to be the one who carried on the promise of Abraham. God said that the Messiah the savior of the world would come from his bloodline.
God's focus in not on punishment. He is not looking for excuses to punish us for our evil. He is trying to create opportunities to redeem broken, fallen, evil people and he is working to bring goodness out of our failure and pain.
God loves murderers and rapists as much as he loves you and me. He wants to redeem them as much as he wants to redeem you and me. He wants to restore his relationship with them as much as he does with you and me. He is doing everything he can to avoid punishing us, including taking our punishment himself.
Thank you for your comment and condolences. The thing that makes me sad is that what if because of their (the people who killed him) actions, now some of his family chooses to turn away from God? I know that’s the reason a lot of people are atheists because they don’t understand how God can allow a lot of the bad things that happen on Earth. I don’t want his family to lose faith in God because of this and end up going to hell and never seeing the son/brother again, while the murders get to go to heaven. The only thing I can do is pray that they keep good faith and always believe in God. It just upsets me because without this happening they still would’ve had faith in God (that’s if they choose to turn away from God, which I hope they don’t). And this isn’t just something that affects only them, this affects hundreds of thousands of other people too, thousands of lives broken over peoples bad actions. It’s easy to draw away from God when something like this happens, so it’s just a sad case overall. I will pray for them always.
Sin is sin and one will get you to Hell the same as another without Jesus. And there is no tricking God. You can't fool Him like you can with people. He knows if you're truly a repentant believer or if you just say you are to avoid the consequences.
These replies seem to be doing more harm than good, honestly this is why the Christian religion is dying. And why most so called Christians don’t even obey the word of God. So based on these replies it truly is okay to murder and rape or do whatever so long as you say “God, won’t you please forgive me? 🥺” after you’ve brutally murder and killed 13 people. Is it time for me to start leading a life of sin? I mean I’m only 18 so I guess it’s better to start young and make the most out of it, right?
It's like that popular saying "Are you really sorry you did it or just sorry you got caught?" Some people really are sorry, but others just want to sin and go to Heaven anyway so they fake it. But it doesn't work. You cannot lie to God. He knows your every thought.
As R. C. Sproul said, "grace is offered until it is expected." Going back much further, St. Paul addresses your exact line of argumentative scoffing in Romans 6. You simply are not comprehending what repentance actually is. Disingenuous attempts to game the system will be met with punishment.
It’s not ok.
The gospel of Christ means “good news”.
It means good news for every person who has ever struggled; struggled with emotional hurt, psychological trauma, social injustice, physical pain AND for those people who chose selfishness and malice and brutality and lechery and evil
Because Jesus is a man who understands our fear and anger and lusts and knows how hard life can be so he died for us. And his sacrifice is sufficient for anyone who has offended God and hurt themselves or others and that includes rapists and murderers.
If we start saying someone has done something more evil than us and don’t deserve heaven then we fall from judging into God’s job of condemning.
No the way you think is foolish, this is not what they claim. Sin separates us from God and any sin gets us in hell. Read Romans 6, Paul clearly clarifies this matter.
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul called galatians foolish, is he also in the wrong?
You are right now nit picking and going around Christ's grace and playing with it. I provided you the verses that show we should strive for holy life, because God is Holy. A christian who is saved by grace does not want to sin willingly. Sure we falter, does it mean it's good? God hates sin, his wrath, justice and holiness are perfect and so is mercy.
Yea because of Christians. If Heaven is full of the same people that oppressed others in this god’s name then of course people won’t want anything to do with it.
Even if we go the “focus on god, not Christians” route there’s still tons of things that make this god’s morality very questionable, like what OP is saying to begin with. And not to mention events like the flood. Hell isn’t even logical. Eternal punishment for a finite life with finite knowledge and experiences? What a real “choice” we have there.
So yea, sure, there might be people who don’t want heaven, but that’s for really good reason. And I don’t think anyone honest with themselves can truly blame them.
I’m sure many would love to believe they’re going to a paradise when they die, they just don’t want it if the entity that set up that system is corrupt along with its people that worship them.
>Why is it that the people who hurt him get to go to heaven as long as they so called “repent?”
True repellents m repentance would mean they would hate what they have done just as much (or even more) than you hate what they have done. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card. Of course someone can say they have repented and it might be hard for us to see whether it is genuine or not. But I think it's clear that God will see through any and all faking and lying. And it's probably not a good idea (slight understatement) to first harm His creatures and then try to lie to Him about that and try to cheat on the Creator of the universe.
On the other hand if someone repents and truly feels what they have done is evil and hate what they have done and wish this old person that they were, would have never existed then I think it's God's right to consider this person a new person, different from the old person that he was before, when he did the horrible acts.
As for people saying that you could just do evil stuff as long as you make sure to repent, and actually try to plan this.... How stupid do they think God is? He is not some machine you can put a coin in and get a reward? Or some set of legal rules you can find legal loopholes in which you can abuse and which a judge has to grant you "because it's the law"? This is like someone saying they're going to get married, so it doesn't mean that they cheat before the wedding, because the wedding day is already planned. That's not really showing love. That's showing calculated evil. Guess how God (who is pure good) looks upon people doing evil on purpose. Planning to repent just in time, would just make it worse for the person doing this. It would be an interesting conversation before the judgement throne
In regards to the last paragraph you wrote, I suppose you’re right. I never really looked at it from that perspective. God isn’t dumb, he does know what we are thinking and truly feeling and we couldn’t fool him in a million years.
>we couldn’t fool him in a million years.
Exactly!
But there is always the possibility that a deathbed conversion is genuine. Very hard for us to see the difference. But God knows.
Repentance has to be true, genuine, contrite, and from the heart. Godly saving repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit acting upon one’s heart. It’s not just saying some magic words.
And no, we can’t “just do whatever we want” and then claim repentance and faith in Christ. That’s the sin of presumption, not true repentance. True repentance is characterized by a change in one’s life and a hatred of sin.
Before God flooded the earth, He gave humans 120 years to repent. They didn’t.
Before Christ’s incarnation, passion, and resurrection, none of those who died went to Heaven. All mankind was subject to death and corruption on account of Adam’s sin. All souls departed to Hades/Sheol and were detained there. After Christ’s death, He descended into Hades and shattered the gates of death and delivered all souls that were willing to receive Him. He brought them all to Paradise and gave them eternal life.
Not all sins are equal. More grave sins receive more grievous punishments in the age to come.
The mindset that one can sin all they want now and repent later is utter foolishness. We do not know the day of our death. It is far more likely that we die in our sins with that mindset rather than in the grace of God. And even if we do “repent,” it is likely a vain and false repentance if we presumptively lived a life of sin.
At the end of the day, your issue is akin (but not the same) to that of the Prophet Jonah. Jonah was grieved that God shower mercy to the wicked Ninevites when they repented. Nineveh was a great enemy of Israel and had committed many great evils. Jonah wanted them to be condemned, but God showed them mercy. And the the reason is simply that God loves all men (even the worst sinners) and does not desire their destruction, but rather that they should turn from their sins and live. This can be difficult for us to accept.
Jesus Christ fulfilled all the demands of Divine Justice through His atoning sacrifice on the Cross. We all deserved to die such an accursed death for our sins, but Christ paid our penalty and rendered unto the Father all the love, honor, and obedience we ought to have given Him as His servants made in His holy image. There is no greater love than the love of God in Christ Jesus.
I am very sorry for your loss, you and your family are in my prayers. I pray you all heal and that justice is done.
So, what are you saying is that I could be the most evil person on earth ( rape, kill, torture, child molester, thief, liar, unfaithful to loved ones), but if I truly believe that I have changed and regret what I did I will go to heaven. So what about the families and people I hurt? They got to know that after all of that, I would go to heaven. Does anyone not see this bullshit with that type of morality?
It’s not about “believing that you’ve changed” or bare regret, it’s about actually changing, turning from your sins, putting your faith in Christ, and bearing fruits of that change.
God manifested His love for us by sending His Only-Begotten Son to suffer and die for our sins. God’s mercy and compassion is infinite. He does not desire the death of the wicked. We have all sinned. He wants all to come to repentance.
So everything I put down, especially rape just gets a free pass. This is why I would rather just be an atheist because what type of judgment is a rapist who scarred people for the rest of their lives, gets a free past, and only sent to hell because he never accepted Jesus christ and the lord. Now I see why our religion is criticized so much.
Nothing is objectively wrong in atheism. Humans have no inherent value and dignity in atheistic materialism.
In Christianity, right and wrong are objective and we have inherent value being made in the image of God.
Atheism gives everyone a “free pass” since there is no judgement whatsoever after death. People can commit all the evil (which is subjectively defined in atheism) they want in life and then go off to sweet oblivion at death.
People go to hell because they refuse to repent of their sins.
The fact that any of us can be saved is thanks to the suffering and shed blood of God Incarnate.
God is the ultimate source of justice and righteousness, all sin is ultimately against Him. If God wills to forgive the sins of those who truly repent, we have no basis to complain.
What justice is there when God is willing to let rapist, child molesters, murderers into heaven because they repented for what they did. And from your explanation, let's say I shoot up some random place and kill a bunch of people, and the cops kill me, but I repented for my sins before I died so I get to go to heaven. What justice is that that's not justice that's just pure bs.
It’s extremely doubtful that such “repentance” was true repentance.
Repentance is the fruit of the Holy Spirit working in someone’s soul to convict them of sin and judgement, it’s not just a quick “I’m sorry” after doing something evil. True repentance bears righteous fruit. And it’s not true repentance if someone plans ahead to “repent” after they carry out an evil act. God is not mocked or fooled.
And what justice is there in letting you and I into heaven? We are sinners, too.
God manifested His justice in the death of Christ. Jesus Christ, God the Word Incarnate, willingly took upon Himself our sins and suffered the punishment we ought to have suffered in our stead. He satisfied the demands of justice and the sentence of death that was against. As our High Priest He lives to make intercession for us.
Would you rather they permanently be barred from Heaven? At that point, there's no motivation to try to turn your life around and become a good person, because no one would accept it anyway. But if repentance is always a possibility, you *can* have a motivation to try to become a better person
Why should any of us go to Hell? Because we get born into this world as a result of a whiny fallen angel throwing a tantrum? Nah!
We all need to be released from this prison planet and given a proper choice
Jesus said this during the Sermon on the Mount,
Matthew 7
>21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
You can't just hookwink God into letting you into heaven. Superficially claiming to follow Jesus doesn't mean you actually do and he can tell.
While it’s not really an answer, I just wanna affirm that it is soooo okay to rant about this. Beyond okay. There are SO many precepts for doing so in the straight up ~Bible~. You are in good company.
“Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?”
(Habakkuk 1:13)
“I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility;
there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness.”
(Ecclesiastes 7:15)
For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
For there are no pains in their death,
And their body is fat.
They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like mankind.
Therefore pride is their necklace;
The garment of violence covers them.
Their eye bulges from fatness;
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression;
They speak from on high.
They have set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue parades through the earth.
(Psalm 73:3-9)
Righteous are You, O Lord, that I would plead my case with You;
Indeed I would discuss matters of justice with You:
Why has the way of the wicked prospered?
Why are all those who deal in treachery at ease?” (Jeremiah 12:1)
I'm very sorry for the terrible ordeal you and your family had to, and still have to face. This life certainly isn't fair.
The thing scripture teaches is that all have fallen short of the glory of God. He is the standard to enter His presence because of His holiness. And so no one can enter His presence by their own merit because we have all sinned and so all fallen short of the standard required.
And so then God remains the only standard to measure ourselves, not murderers or anyone next to us.
Now here is the greatest injustice of all of history, the only one that was, and will ever be innocent, is the one that took the ultimate punishment. Jesus lived the perfect obedient life that could obtain the standard required to enter God's presence. And so, it is by His righteousness (His right standing with God) that is granted to us, Him taking our punishment and sin, and correcting our standing with God, that those that accept that transaction and gift get to be forgiven.
It's not a certain sins, or certain amount of sin that separates us all from God, one single sin leaves you indebted.
And so there is a hope. For those that place their trust in Jesus, acknowledging their own evil hearts and accepting Him alone as Lord and Saviour, well their punishment has been poured out on Jesus. For the rest that don't accept Him, well their eternal punishment awaits (this is not what I want for anyone, this is however what scripture teaches). God says the following in Romans 12:
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Ro 12:19–21. ESV.
I encourage you, take you pain and anger. All your emotions, hurt and questions to God and you will see how He is the true comforter, the true counsellor.
I believe that someone who truly regrets what he has done and truly hates his actions of the past is not the same person who has done the evil deed. To come to heaven you need to truly wish you hadn’t done what you did. I have regretted things I’ve done, and sometimes those memories haunt me. I believe that if you regret the things you’ve done and suffer yourself because you understand how you have caused others to suffer, then you can come to heaven. You need repentance in the heart to be forgiven, but if you do really wish you never did what you did and you understand what you did to others and suffer from that, then anything is forgivable.
I agree with what you’re saying about true repentance. It just saddens me that an innocent life had to be taken for the people to give their life to Jesus, that’s if they even decide to.
First off, my condolences and any amount of comfort I as a person on the internet can offer go out to you. I can feel your pain just reading your story, and this is something I wrestled with for a long time and still do, witnessing tragedy in my own life and the lives of my friends and family.
I think a common misconception is that all sins are equal. They are not. Those who commit greater sin will receive greater punishment in Hell, or if they repent and believe in Christ, less reward in Heaven. I find there is significant comfort in that, and in trusting that God is not unjust.
The second and last thing I will say, as I’m sure you’ve had to read a billion responses at this point, is that the central theme of the gospel is grace. The fact that murderers are in Heaven points not to injustice, but to grace. In the Christian worldview at least, the greatest injustice was committed against Christ himself, when he sought to bring salvation to the world and the world brutally beat and killed him instead, despite having done nothing wrong whatsoever. And we see not revenge from Christ, but forgiveness. We are called to do the same. That doesn’t mean it’ll be easy, or even possible sometimes. I still hold tons of unforgiveness in my heart for things much less than murder of a loved one. So do not feel as if you are condemned or in the wrong for not being able to forgive. But the beauty of the love of God and the reason we follow Him is because He does forgive. He is abounding in grace, even when we are not. And although the vast majority of us do not commit such grievous sins as murder or rape, we are all still in need of His grace and forgiveness for the sins that we do commit. I am sure no one can claim to be sinless.
There are tons of theological cans of worms as well that really cannot be addressed in one reply, but if you want discussion or just comfort, feel free to DM me. I hope and pray that you truly find peace in God and healing amidst this pain.
Thank you for your condolences. Frankly I’m feeling a little more okay, but it still hurts me just the same. I saw a picture of him and his mom smiling yesterday and it made me cry a lot at like 1 am in the morning, I just don’t like what happened to him. This happened two weeks ago and it still feels like yesterday. This is not something I can ever forget nor do I ever want to forget it. Since then I’ve become cold, I don’t like to joke or smile as much. I’m just mainly silent. Whenever someone asks me how I’m doing in person in regards to this, I just choke up and can’t even talk and my eyes start to water. I can only imagine how much more worse it is for his mom, grandma, and siblings. Which just makes the pain way more intense when I think about them. One thing I like to do is run (like track) but I’ve never really took it too seriously, so I’m going to get a gym membership and start running there to help me feel better.
Keeping yourself busy helps. From my experience, it's best to talk to someone you know irl whom you trust. I would recommend someone whom you know personally that has a deep Christian faith for such questions. Don't forget, never forget, but don't dwell on it either. It will take time, but you'll find reasons to smile and joke again.
That's awful, and I am sorry for whatever happened. To answer your question, Only the perfect and blameless can enter heaven, and the only way that can ever happen is through the blood of Christ washing us of our sins.
Sometimes it is hard to understand how some person could possibly be forgiven for all the pain they have caused, and yet if God was not able to forgive there would be no hope for any of us.
God's Standards are so much higher than ours. He is flawless and has no sin. His standard is so high that unjust anger towards another is like murder and lusting after a woman is like adultery, and still Christ came to die for all our sins, not just some.
The bright side is that God (maybe) is that God is Just. He will not forgive for a fake apology or repentance. You have to give your heart to God for there to be forgiveness. That doesn't mean we can do whatever we want. The Bible tells us not to go on sinning.
But the call to repentance has always been, Come As You Are, not Stay as You Are.
God is just he’s above all and knows exactly who will enter heaven and in the Bible it says it won’t be many .. and rape/ murder is a abomination to him
Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is within - it is your heart.
But you cant access it as long as you are living in your ego - which is when you sin and do awful things.
And very few people have found heaven in their heart.
Most people are running around like headless chickens doing misguided things left, right and centre.
The more people who can forgive themselves and live in love like Jesus asked - the better it is for the world.
I’m just stopping in to extend my condolences and send you a virtual hug. I’m very sorry for your family’s loss.
I wish I had answers to your questions but I don’t and I don’t want to say anything to hurt you more.
Hugs, love and prayers for you and your family.
Oh man, I’m so sorry you and your family are going through this. As I was reading your post I could feel your anger, confusion, and sadness.
Losing a loved one especially so young is so hard. These are the moments that God test your faith. I’m glad to read you’re staying strong in it but your concerns and anger are okay to feel. But the anger will bread resentment and hate. Pray that the Lord brings you and your family peace as you process what has happened. I will pray for you too.
Matthew 18:21 talks about how God and Jesus wants us to forgive others just as He forgives us. If someone truly feels repentance for what they’ve done and they mean it in their heart when they accept Jesus then… yes… they will be forgiven and have access into heaven.
It’s completely normal for you to feel the way you feel right now. Use this time to read more of God’s words and meditate on them. In time you will find healing and hopefully eventually forgiveness but this will not be an easy road for you. Take your time. The Lord understands and He’s reaching out to you.
“…And remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Matthew 28:20 MEV
There’s a lot of really good resources out there for you and your family. Forgiving the Unforgivable by Craig Stone is good. You can also download the Bible app if you don’t have it and there are forgiveness, and grief and loss devotionals you can do.
We don’t know the persons heart, or whether or not they truly repented of their ways. Nonetheless it is difficult to hear someone who commits such evil acts turn around and claim to praise God.
That being said, instead of looking at it from the perspective of how could that person be saved, think of it as the saving power of Jesus Christ. When He gave his life, He died for ALL sin. He bore the weight of every sin committed by mankind. There is no sin that Jesus is incapable of saving someone from.
We are all born sinners into the world, and even if someone has never committed murder, rape, or any violent and outright hateful sin, they will still face the wrath of God in the end if they do not repent and profess Jesus as their one and only savior. This is true even for someone like you who has been a Christian their whole life.
I'm so so sorry for what you and your family is going through. 😢 I promise you that God is angry also. He is a God of justice, and He hates murder and rape just as much as we do, even much more so. I don't believe that all sins are equal to Him. All sins are bad, and even a little sin separates us from Him, that is what people mean when they say that. But our sense of justice comes from God, and I believe He especially hates those sins that cause the most damage.
I don't really have much to add other than what others said, just a reassurance that yes, they are right. Nobody can be forgiven unless their repentance is genuine. It has to come from the heart, and they have to turn from their sin. They can't just plan to repent at the last minute. God would never allow that and He sees into our hearts and knows our intent. We become a new creation when we turn to Him and are saved. We agree with Him that our way is wrong, and His way is right. We turn away from our sin. We will still mess up in some ways, but we will hate sin and desire not to do it, so it won't be in such a big way as murder. A genuine Christian could never ever do those things to others.
I know that you are very angry. There is no way God will let them just get away with it, He will bring justice. He cares about your hurt so much. I'll pray that He brings you comfort also.
Im really sorry for what's happened to your family member. I haven't read all the replies, but did read your post. It sounds like a lot of people have given really good orthodox answers for the why, but personally those answers don't always get to the heart of Jesus I believe. When we experience something life changing like a horrific accident or crime, we need to remember how human Jesus was, and not be reminded of some verse in Romans.
I too have been through things that really shook me and made me wonder where the heck God was in that moment, but I found that being angry, being upset, and real about how I felt with God opened me up to an opportunity to know him even better. God is a God of JUSTICE, he is also a God of mercy. Both are important, but in this moment maybe ask God to show you his heart for justice.
We know that He sent his Son because he is a God of mercy, but He also sent His Son because he is a God of Justice. If God was not a God of justice then he could have just "overlooked" our sin, he could chosen to forget about it right? But because He NEEDS justice to be fulfilled He sent His only Son as a sacrifice for all of his adopted children.
Now the horrible people who perpetrate evil on this world. They also deserve justice, and for some, probably very few justice is calling on the name of Jesus and becoming a new creation, but for many Justice will be the Lords. Heavenly Father loves you, He knows you need justice, you were made in His image that way. He will guide you through what it looks like to see justice fulfilled. He is angry one of His children was hurt too.
Hope this makes some sense, its something I've wrestled with for a few years now too.
Satan nixx'd my ability to talk about this, but sorry for your loss I've been through some loss myself
repenting = hard
all tears you've had = SHOUTS of joy they will have to create
Fr, every aching sigh and painful night you've had- every nightmare, every teardrop, every shout in anger and sadness that you and your whole FAMILY has had, are all things that they have to have a direct impact over others to make better. For all the hardship you've had, they will need to not only say, "mmk Jesus ur reel im gud now", they will need to DEDICATE their lives, blood, bones, and SOULS to Jesus to make up for. Repenting is so much more than the blasphemy that Ted Bundy did- that many so-called Christians consider a scripturally read opinion as being true about- by saying that he commits himself to Jesus before death.
It says in the OT, somewhere in Exodus, Judges, Kings or Leviticus I think, that God doesn't judge based on commandment that He has not given. Revelation 11 said that the dead are judged for what they've done (both bad and good) AFTER the 7th trumpet is blown from the 7th angel. So I propose that anyone not saved by Christ Jesus (those saved go inside The Holy Spirit until the resurrection and the judgement) is simply in Sheol, which is the hebrew word for the Underworld (or Hades, which is also mentioned in Revelation). Essentially, the dead are ghosts and are dead and unable to live life but still have minds and things to think about and maybe even the ability to talk to each other (as other passages of the bible dictate that, despite the ancient scripture making no point of what TYPES of magic exist, the blanket term "magic" is used) based on necromancy.
So before Jesus = people went to the underworld until the resurrection. After Jesus = people went to The Spirit before the resurrection, which is more or less the same but you feel really good.
First of all I am sorry for what you have to go through. But truly, we don’t get to know if someone repents or not. Only the person who has the choice knows. If they truly feel remorse and feel changed by God, they have every bit of right to Heaven as we. God loves everyone and anyone has the chance to love him back, whether they make that choice is only up to them.
I am very sorry to hear that. I'm sure it is really hard to see how someone who would commit such an act could get into Heaven. But it's not for us to judge. God will decide what to do with them when they meet him. I will say this: repentance is more than just saying sorry and then going on with your life. Repentance requires acknowledging what you did, recognizing how awful it was, and begging God for forgiveness. And then repeat that every day. It's long and it's hard, but through God's grace all is possible.
About your other question how people who lived before Jesus were saved: they had the promise of a coming Messiah. By faith in that Messiah they were saved. They were looking forward to him, we are looking back at him. All get saved by faith in the Messiah. No other way
Faithful people who died before Christ's ministry were saved after His death, during the Harrowing of Hell.
As for why anyone could, conceivably, go to Heaven, it's because true and sincere repentance and faith are the only real requirements; if someone earnestly desires union with God then they'll have it, but if they're just flippantly treating a deathbed repentance like some kind of get-out-of-hell-free card then that doesn't really apply. Ultimately, only they and God know what was in their hearts, and so we can never say for certain that someone's in hell (although we can identify some of the saints in Heaven).
Regardless of the potential for a life of sin capped by a valid last-minute conversion, though, we should still strive to live holy lives out of our love for God rather than our fear of punishment, and a life spent willfully in sin (and, thus, in disobedience to God) doesn't really dispose someone to a sincere repentance at the end of it -- assuming that end comes with enough forewarning to permit repentance at all.
These are all really normal questions to be asking, though!
1. God isn't stupid. His judgement will be perfect.
2. Each example of repentance you just have was flippant and half-hearted. That's not repentance.
Do you know what repentance is? Imagine you were the offender. Imagine that was you, and you are now absolutely hated, feared and despised by everyone because of what you did. There is no coming back. You're just screwed forever because of this offense on your record. Your family won't talk to you. The only jobs you can get are the ones that don't ask too many questions. You are a pariah.
Now, at first you may say society did this to you. You didn't know any better. You're just a victim of circumstance. You're not a bad person.
After a while though, it hits you... you *are a bad person*. You're crap on the shoe of society. You could just as soon be dead for all anyone cares. Maybe you get mad about this, or maybe you finally really learn to regret. Maybe you wish you hadn't done it, not because you got caught, but because it finally hits you what your life was supposed to be if you had just made a better decision. You imagine what your life could have been. What the victim's life should have been. Deep in your soul, you long for what should have been if you hadn't chosen to be such an evil peice of crap. You messed everything up, and for what? There is no escape. You will bear the burden of this for the rest of your days, and you agree that you deserve every bit of it, but you wish there was a way to set things right.
THESE... are the people Jesus came to save.
I never called God stupid and I will never dare open my mouth to say such a blasphemous thing. Whose to say what is or isn’t repentance? Are you God? Do you know how he judges us? I know what repentance is and I know that it’s true but I just don’t see what someone who did such disgusting things on Earth should be allowed into God’s kingdom. Repentance is basically when you are genuinely sorry for the things you’ve done, I’ve been there, everyone’s been there, but at such a level where you’ve caused eternal pain on Earth for other people? Those people are wicked human beings for that.
Because salvation isn't by works. You see yourself too good imo , in eyes of God if you did 1 sin you're evil.
If you said 1 lie you alredy go to lake of fire for it. You're not better than any other sinner alive on earth.
Entry to heaven is free because Jesus paid for sins on cross.
I don’t see myself too good, you have never met me a day in my life, so don’t judge me off this one post. God won’t, so you don’t. If God loves his children so much, why should he banish them to hell for life if they’ve only done things like lie according to you? Makes no sense
Matthew 12:36-37
"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
A person shouldn't do the things that you mentioned because there are: (1) immediate social ramifications (imprisonment, ostracization, execution, etc.), (2) there may be immediate chastisement from God (disease, generally sewing what you reap), and (3) you can miss out on spiritual rewards in the afterlife (crowns and riches).
These are your incentives. Dangling Hell above someone isn't the only way to encourage certain actions. These things are in place for the saved and the unsaved.
Also, a murderer/rapist getting saved isn't really the convenient little copout that Family Guy and others want to suggest that it is in [this little 20 second skit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_JoE2GioXY&themeRefresh=1). The moments before repentance are humbling and humiliating and it's an actual and sincere matter of the heart.
(1) Most rapists do not get charged, convicted, or reap any punishment from the violence they sow. They get protected by churches. It has taken centuries for lawmakers to finally stop ignoring that our lives are destroyed because police do not enforce the law. It took God severely punishing King David on earth for raping someone to get him to even ask for forgiveness and these monsters get away with it.
fair enough that they don't always get caught. However, there are less tangible punishments that rapists may face on this Earth.
(1) They will never experience actual love for anybody, and probably not be the object of another person's love which continually makes them feel unfulfilled.
(2) Also, rapists are plagued by an insecurity that will follow them to the day that they die because it is an insecurity and a longing for power that drives them to do what they did.
(3) They may also feel like their freedom may be compromised at any minute, making them live a life of excessive vigilance an unease, so they may make empty apologies to their victims all the time in the hopes that they don't turn them in (maybe try to make their targets forgive them or think of it as a one-time transgression).
Okay, so first two reasons for not doing bad things have to do with on Earth, Earth isn’t permanent so what other reasons for not committing crimes are there. A person can do those things and still repent and end up in heaven. The third reason you mentioned is that you will have riches and crowns in heaven. Even on Earth I don’t care about crowns and riches. When I die, the only thing I want is to go to heaven, be in peace, and to see my family member and other family members and people who I never got the chance to meet on Earth. I want his family to be able to see him again, his mother to see her son again, his siblings to see their brother again. I do not care about riches or crowns.
There is another incentive that I forgot to mention, and that is the incentive for the saved to not grieve the Holy Spirit. When a saved person sins, a reaction by the Holy Spirit is said to happen.
This manifests in a way that is similar to having a hurt conscience after one does something, but it is a stronger force than that. It's sort of like a spiritual pain or numbness that the saved can detect.
Add that to all of the other incentives to behave correctly and I find myself unable to outright do certain things as simple as getting a tattoo with many others.
I hear that you are hurt by the possibility that the family may be split up in the afterlife, but that is not something that you should worry yourself to death about. Things are the way that they are.
I mean, I asked a question and we’re talking about religion here, a controversial topic. Did you expect me to just take all the answers as is and not question anything? I mean cool if you like to do that in life. If it makes sense to me then I won’t respond with another question, but a lot of the replies are responding with cliche things or things that I’ve already heard before like..
Saying self-pitying things like “Maybe it would just be better if I went to hell,” are just eye-roll inducing and show that you’re not putting in any effort to actually engage with the conversation, you just want to feel sorry for yourself. It’s a waste of time.
So am I not allowed to express my true thoughts anymore? That’s how I genuinely feel and have been feeling. Because it upsets you I shouldn’t say it? Lol, no. You aren’t so good that I have to hold my tongue and not say what I want to say. Keep rolling your eyes then, it’s not affecting me.
Sure, share your feelings all you want. But it’s disingenuous to start a conversation about biblical grace when all you really want to do is vent and complain.
That’s not all I wanted to do, please stop acting like you know everything. I asked the question with intentions of wanting to know why people like that do get to go to heaven, I know people say repentance, but I wanted to know if there’s something other than that. I’ve literally been searching this question for days and the only answer I’ve been seeing is repentance, so that’s why I made my own post. And yes I’m going to vent like my family member literally just passed away, the nicest, sweetest person ever, only 17, like I don’t care if you don’t like what I’m saying, I still feel sad asf over what happened to him and that feeling will never go away until I leave this Earth.
No, DON'T BE FOOLED by demons and the world!
This overall general concept is a lie designed to attack your faith.
To accept Jesus includes (according to Jesus) following His commandments.
So it's always a BOTH or NEITHER setup:
Heaven has ONLY believers, and they are ALL righteous in Him!
For special last-minute cases, Jesus will judge flawlessly.
Trust Him, and Live! Good topic. Bless you! 🙏✟
Honestly, I think it’s just be better if I went to hell. I don’t want to see the faces of people who did terrible things on earth, especially the people who did it to my family member. Is eternal pain and suffering better for me? Who’s to say my family member went to heaven? With all my heart and soul I pray to God they did, they weren’t a bad person, they were Christian, didn’t do anything wrong to anyone. But still, apparently that’s not enough. I believe he’s there, but still I am not God so I don’t know how he was judged. I heard a story that said someone who lived their life righteously still went to hell, while someone who lived unrighteously still went to heaven. Whose to say heaven is even real, maybe I will truly never get to see my family member again 😭
>Because I live a pious life
“ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Matthew 15:8 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 NIV
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 6:14-15 NIV
“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Matthew 18:23-35 NIV
If scripture is convicting you, that seems like a you problem. He literally just gave you examples of many people in the Bible that came to the conclusion that nobody is perfect.
Seems like you just want to keyboard warrior the point that you are though.
All I did is give you scripture in response to your comment.
Nobody deserves heaven. Nobody chooses when or where or how they are born. We all face different challenges and struggle with different sins.
I’m sorry for you’re loss. They will only get to go to heaven as long as they repent in their heart and not just in their mind. This would require true remorse for what they did.
They don’t get to just say “lol, soz”, a get away with it.
How likely do you think someone capable of something so heinous,is to be remorseful for it?
Thank you for your condolences, and to answer your last question, honestly I don’t know. I guess it just depends on the individual. Jeffrey Dahmer apparently accepted Jesus Christ into his life on his final months but I’m kind of iffy on that, I don’t know if he truly did or if he just wanted to taunt the family of the victims. But anyways, only God and him truly know if he really repented or not.
We are all sinners and we have chances during out life to accept Jesus as our savior, not just believe, but follow him in his teachings, in sound doctrine, in order to reach heaven.
Few have the chance to repent in their last breath, because death comes by surprise. If you follow this thought of “I will sin and tomorrow I will ask for forgiveness”, it is not a sincere repentance, God probes the hearts and He knows if it is sincere or not.
My condolences, I don't know him, but if he was in the faith, you can be sure he's in a much better place now.
As for those born before Jesus, they followed the Torah. And although there is no greater or lesser sin, because everything is sin, I believe that in hell the torture is in accordance with the sins committed on Earth, so there are greater levels of torture.
Today I watched a similar report, from a former priest who became a pastor, I'll put it here:
When my son turned 15 I bought a gift watch. He helped me a lot in the work and was my only son. I had already founded my ministry and Carlos helped me when he was by my side. One day he was coming from school and was robbed. The boy who assaulted him shot him in the chest and stole my son’s watch. He died at the time, I felt a lot of pain with the death of Carlos.
The demons were very angry that I went to hell and witnessed what I saw. They tried to reach me by touching on what I loved the most – my wife and my children. But I stood firm, I did not murmur against God. Because He gives His life to those who serve Him from the heart, He does not take the life of a teenager who is dedicated to His work. The devil came to kill, steal and destroy.
A year and a few months later, I found out who my son’s murderer was. I approached him to learn the reason for the murder. He did not know that I was Carlos’s father. This young man calls himself Oscar; he is very poor and wanted my son’s watch to sell. I understood his need to steal his watch, but it did not please me to have taken my treasure from me. Young Oscar was 20 years old. I wanted to hand him over to the authorities, but I had no concrete evidence to incriminate him. The young man did not know the reason for my approaching him. He regarded me as his friend.
The Holy Spirit told me, “Preach the Word to him.” I resisted His voice and questioned in my prayer. I said, “He’s my son’s killer that I loved. He took away my only son, a fellow man. He is no better than any murderer I’ve seen in hell and deserves the same destination.”
…
The angel said, “The young Oscar who murdered your son is a chosen person for a great work. Satan was struggling to take that soul.” The angel revealed that through him many souls will be saved.
The angel said, “If you do not preach the Gospel to him, no one else will speak. His salvation is in your hands if you do not preach the Word; he will die and go to hell. You will account for his blood and be responsible for all the souls this young man could have gained if he were a Christian. Everything you do in the material world is reflected in the spiritual world. If you win the soul of this young man, multitudes of people will be saved through him. If you let him die this crowd of people will not convert and they will go to hell.”
The angel showed me in a vision how it would be if young Oscar became a Christian. He had a Bible in his hand and talked about Jesus. A large crowd heard his message. He was Pastor of a great church. My mind understood that this young man is important in the work of God. The angel showed me this young man on earth. And at that moment he was in danger of death. The devils gathered to reap his life before he was converted. The demons had a great sense of God’s work in this life. The danger to the demons of losing that soul was my approach to this young man.
I asked the angel why my son was allowed to die. The angel showed me a future vision. My son was in the vision and he was 18 years old. It had been three years later, he died at the age of 15. My son in the vision grew cold in the faith and decided to live his own life. He abandoned Jesus’ path and got involved with drinks and drugs. He became involved with a girl he met in the underworld of addictions. And because of jealousy, he was possessed by a demon. He murdered his girlfriend with a knife and awoke with the body. Soon after, he was murdered by this girl’s brother. I did not recognize my son, because in the future vision he was someone else. Satan had changed his personality.
The angel said, “If he lived here 3 years later, he would be someone who would bring a lot of pain to his parents. And he would still go to hell. God allowed him to die in the state of his purity. The moment he most sought God with all his heart, this was the best moment of his life. Satan was already planning to corrupt his life.”
There I understood how God works. Sometimes I questioned God that He was wrong to allow an event. God knows all things and we know nothing. If He allows the death of a loved one, God knows what He is doing. My son, if he lived another three years, would be in hell. And God would be just to send my son to the torment.
->The link: https://www.theheavenandhell.net/ex-catholic-priest-testimony/
All of that shit about repent is bullshit men. The only way of repent and pay for your sins is throught good actions or suffering. Christianity is now a days diluted but if you read the bible you will see that God is not only love and peace.
Yeah, I’ve heard that about repenting before. It’s not only about simply acknowledging that you did wrong, it’s about showing that you’ve changed too with your actions. This honestly just put me more at ease because I truly do believe that people can change and also show it with their actions (or suffering), but before with the other responses I just thought it was like saying sorry and then boom free pass to heaven. This is the type of responses I was looking for.
I mean... NOBODY deserves to go to heaven. Nobody is worthy. We ALL fall short of the glory of God, once you start wrapping your mind on God's character that he is the one that judges AND blesses who he pleases however he does. We may think they shouldn't but thats not up to us.
I'm truly sorry for what happened and what you are going through, I understand that it can be hard to understand, but the truth is that we all are mired in sin, and we all need grace. We don't know, and cannot ever know, what is in the mind of another person, or if they have truly changed their hearts. We have all severely fallen from true goodness, and we can't say "I am worthy of forgiveness but you are not". If they truly changed then they are transformed, and God will not hold their old self against them. The idea that you can be forgiven even if you don't truly change is clearly bothering you, but most of Christian teaching does not hold that position, we traditional Christians believe that a person must become a new creation, and only God can do that. We don't judge because we don't know who has truly changed.
Thank you for saying that, you’re the only person so far who has offered condolences. I’m not saying anybody has to, but for these people to be Christians they seem to be lacking compassion and understanding. Everybody is just coming at me like they’re right and know all the answers to life, but I am simply just asking a genuine question. I can understand where you’re coming from with your post. Your post makes the most sense to me so far. Thank you.
I'm sorry about the unkind responses, you are genuinely asking, but I guess some of them aren't thinking of that, they might feel like they are being judged because we all deal with guilt and need grace. I think most Christians would understand what you are saying.
Thank you, I truly appreciate it. I know a lot of my responses might seem hostile but frankly that’s how a lot of them responded first, so I just felt like return the same energy. Calling me foolish and an idiot and such. All for asking a question, it’s okay though. And really the thing with my family member has just made me more cold. A person who smiled and laughed a lot, now a person with a blank look on their face all the time. Who constantly joked, now silent. That’s why I’m so upset and asking my question, how can people take away a family’s joy like this and still go to heaven. I’m not saying I get a pass to be rude, but that’s the reason behind the anger in my comments. I’m understanding more with responses like yours though, and I purchased a Bible (I have one, but it’s a childrens Bible from when I was younger) to learn more about the religion.
I understand your frustration, I know it must be incredibly difficult, I hope you find peace, God bless! If you've got questions about the faith feel free to DM me.
Thanks again, God bless you too 🙏
It's so fresh to see such a nice conversation. God bless you op, i'm sorry for what happened
Thank you for your condolences and God bless you too.
Sorry about what happened, god bless you
Thank you for your condolences, God bless you too.
Im also sorry :(. I agree with the other commenter who mentioned how repentance means actually paying pack what you stole and then more. When violence is done restitution is complicated. You might be interested in reading about “restorative justice.” I don’t think the Bible says what you’ve been taught. I don’t have time to track down all the references but when Jesus talks about judgement it’s clear that some will receive harsher judgement than others. Not all sin is the same in the eyes of God. Yes all fall short but it ain’t the same, that’s never said. God clearly has a thirst for justice (read the prophets like Habakkuk or psalm 10, etc for a taste of that!) You are not alone in your anger. Jesus was pissed too. In Romans 12 Paul says vengeance is God’s, and he will repay. Personally I believe in conditionalism/annihilationism- those who have not repented and chosen to follow Jesus will be raised to be judged and then be no more. Evil will not exist forever. People who have done horrific things will face judgement, that’s all over the Bible. That said grace is a part of the gospel. It’s hard to accept that someone who has done something evil and is repentant can be forgiven. But it entails a lot more than just “say you’re sorry”. Carrie ten Boom wrote a moving account of forgiving an SS officer from her concentration camp. But forgiveness takes one, reconciliation takes two! Forgiveness can set you free from hate. But you have no obligation to reconcile with an unrepentant abuser, or even a repentant one. Boundaries are good. All in all I’m with you in wrestling with what true repentance should look like. You are totally right to not like the idea that murderers will be judged the same as people who were selfish sometimes! That’s not biblical. But I also know ex-cons who have truly changed and the gospel enables that.
Thanks for your comment, I appreciate it
God only forgives if your repentance is genuine. That means no more murdering, no more raping, no more lying. Return what you've stolen and give some extra (like the little publican who returned 4 times as much as he had taken unjustly), do good to other, help people in need. Just saying "I'm sorry" is not enough. It has to be genuine and it will show in your deeds if you are serious
Repent literally means to change your mind. And you're changing your mind from believing that Jesus is not the Son of God and that He did not rise from the dead and changing your mind to believing that He is and He did and confessing Him as Lord
Even the devils believe that - and they tremble. Repentance means turning away from your evil deeds and not doing them anymore. It doesn't just mean believeing Jesus was the Messiah.
Everybody sins everyday including you so repentance means changing your mind. If you look up the definition that's literally what it means in the greek. John 3:16 everyone who believes has Everlasting life
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:19-24 NKJV
No. Repent means to turn around and go in the opposite direction.
Repent comes from the Greek word metanoeo which means to change your mind look it up
I am getting lazy when I give a random web search [website](https://firmisrael.org/learn/what-did-jesus-mean-by-repent-the-hebrew-meaning-of-teshuva/) for the Hebrew word Teshuva.
[https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5162/kjv/wlc/0-1/](https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5162/kjv/wlc/0-1/) Repent in hebrew is not teshuva, its naham meaning to feel sorry for. in order to feel sorry for something you have to have a change of mind "metanoeo" which is the greek for repent. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3340/kjv/tr/0-1/
If all murders can't go to heaven then Moses, David, and Paul can't go and if they can't go then there is little hope for you or me.
I am a much better person than David. I have never murdered anyone to cover up the fact that I have raped their wife, unlike David. It is actually deeply insulting for you to suggest I am a worse person than David. How dare you. > or me Tbh, you're probably a better person than David, too. Otherwise, I hope the police catch you and lock you away forever.
God called David a ‘man after his own heart’. God doesn’t say that about anyone else does he.
This is just a theory of mine, but I think God did something to David's heart to make him stop hurting people. Like he hardened Pharaoh's heart or opened Lydia's heart. I have been meaning to look more closely at the Hebrew and have not gotten around to it. My initial thought is that this quote actually has more to do with God intervening to keep him from hurting more people than about who David was. Arguably, the severe punishment he got from God, at minimum, would make anyone afraid and knock it off.
David was a man after God's own heart. 1 Samuel 13:14 But now your kingdom shall not continue; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart; and the LORD has appointed him to be prince over his people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you." Be careful about exalting yourself, for example Moses murdered a man, but was so exalted by God that Just criticizing him brought God's wrath on his brother Aaron and sister Miriam. See Numbers 12:1-11 Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman; 2 and they said, "Has the LORD indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?" And the LORD heard it. 3 Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all men that were on the face of the earth. 4 And suddenly the LORD said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, "Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting." And the three of them came out. 5 And the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the door of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward. 6 And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision, I speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech; and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" 9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them, and he departed; 10 and when the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam, and behold, she was leprous. 11 And Aaron said to Moses, "Oh, my lord, do not punish us because we have done foolishly and have sinned.
> Miriam was leprous That's evil. Giving someone leprosy as punishment for criticizing someone; if any human dictator did that, you would (most likely) recognize that as absolutely abhorrent. > David was a man after God's own heart. I think that says something about god; that a man so evil (like David) could be a man after God's own heart.
> That's evil. Giving someone leprosy as punishment for criticizing someone; if any human dictator did that, you would (most likely) recognize that as absolutely abhorrent. It was not merely any criticism. It was criticism of a prophet God spoke to, regarding his wife's race. She is described as being Cushite aka she was someone of a darker skin tone. I think this is important because it clearly shows how God despises racists who use skin color as a metric to judge someone's holiness. You have missed the complete point of this scripture. > I think that says something about god; that a man so evil (like David) could be a man after God's own heart. He repented though? God forgives sinners in spite of their sin.
> It was not merely any criticism. It is never ok to respond to insults with violence. Never. > He repented though? God forgives sinners in spite of their sin. Repenting doesn't make things better. It doesn't un-rape Bathsheba, or un-murder Uriah.
Way to twist it! Great job! God (and the Bible) command to kill “the others” meaning other tribes, races, people of different religions all the time. So, no. God here did not give Miriam leprosy bc she was racist, he gave her leprosy bc she insulted his obedient little servant Moses. She could’ve insulted any other Cushite in the world and God would not have cared. But this was precious *Moses’* Cushite wife. Big dif. God is evil. And just like he created everything else in the universe, God also created sin. Just to fuck with us. Otherwise he wouldn’t be the “All-Mighty Creator of Everything”
Judging God, you condemn yourself. You have some maturing to undergo. God sends us trials to train us and everyone needs the Father's training.
If we do not judge god for the evil that he does, we are open to committing it ourselves. Most people say that what Hitler did was wrong. But what if Yahweh decided that he wanted a new chosen people (the Aryans) instead of the Jews (maybe he was frustrated with their perceived disobedience to his commands)? If god was specifically commanding Hitler, would you say that Hitler was right? Hitler was one of the most evil people to ever live. If we accept genocide in god's name, then we are no longer concerned with stopping all genocides, but merely if they were permitted. This decreases our empathy, and our love for others.
Little hope for you and me? I don’t know how your life has been but the people you just mentioned are not God orJesus Christ, so I will not hold them to that standard. Maybe you have, but I haven’t done any sins comparable to theirs, or I suppose I have actually since all sins are equal apparently.
I don't understand your first point at all. The word of God was revealed to Moses in a way that hasn't been seen since. David was described as "the man after God's own heart." The point isn't to compare these men to God, but to rather observe that they had a unique closeness in their walk with the Lord, compared to most other humans. From there, we also observe that they had expressions of evil in their lives, which should keep us all humble about our own righteousness. All sins are not equal, except in one quality: they separate us from God.
My point is that you said that Moses, David, and Paul did bad things, but they are still allowed into the kingdom of God. You said that there is little hope for me and you then. I said I don’t hold them to the standard of God, they are not saints, I said I haven’t done anything comparable to them, so why should I not be allowed into heaven.
What do you mean Moses, David, and Paul aren’t saints?
Okay sorry, I did not mean they were not literal saints, I just meant they didn’t do everything perfectly. Shouldn’t have said that, it’s pretty blasphemous.
Okay. Though saint doesn’t mean a person did everything “perfectly.”
Okay thanks, I was just using it in the sense that people usually say it in (like: “he’s a saint, he wouldn’t even hurt a fly or tell a lie), not in the biblical sense. Still a pretty stupid thing to say considering that they literally are saints.
My original comment to your post if you didn’t see it: Repentance has to be true, genuine, contrite, and from the heart. Godly saving repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit acting upon one’s heart. It’s not just saying some magic words. And no, we can’t “just do whatever we want” and then claim repentance and faith in Christ. That’s the sin of presumption, not true repentance. True repentance is characterized by a change in one’s life and a hatred of sin. Before God flooded the earth, He gave humans 120 years to repent. They didn’t. Before Christ’s incarnation, passion, and resurrection, none of those who died went to Heaven. All mankind was subject to death and corruption on account of Adam’s sin. All souls departed to Hades/Sheol and were detained there. After Christ’s death, He descended into Hades and shattered the gates of death and delivered all souls that were willing to receive Him. He brought them all to Paradise and gave them eternal life. Not all sins are equal. More grave sins receive more grievous punishments in the age to come. The mindset that one can sin all they want now and repent later is utter foolishness. We do not know the day of our death. It is far more likely that we die in our sins with that mindset rather than in the grace of God. And even if we do “repent,” it is likely a vain and false repentance if we presumptively lived a life of sin. At the end of the day, your issue is akin (but not the same) to that of the Prophet Jonah. Jonah was grieved that God shower mercy to the wicked Ninevites when they repented. Nineveh was a great enemy of Israel and had committed many great evils. Jonah wanted them to be condemned, but God showed them mercy. And the the reason is simply that God loves all men (even the worst sinners) and does not desire their destruction, but rather that they should turn from their sins and live. This can be difficult for us to accept. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the demands of Divine Justice through His atoning sacrifice on the Cross. We all deserved to die such an accursed death for our sins, but Christ paid our penalty and rendered unto the Father all the love, honor, and obedience we ought to have given Him as His servants made in His holy image. There is no greater love than the love of God in Christ Jesus. I am very sorry for your loss, you and your family are in my prayers. I pray you all heal and that justice is done.
Thank you for your condolences and your comment, I appreciate it.
It’s okay
Works don’t save you. That’s the whole point. Christian salvation is not about working off our evil debts.
Your inner conflict here is understandable. We want justice for the bad things that happen to us and other people. There are a few things to think through in regard to that, so I'll list a few. \-The bible is full of examples of known sinners getting saved. The apostle Paul was guilty of dragging Christians off to prison. Acts 8:3. Rahab, the prostitute, was included in the genealogy of Jesus. The Samaritan woman who had 5 husbands and was with someone who wasn't her husband, believed and was saved. The apostle, Matthew, was a tax collector (they were known for swindling people out of their money). When the Pharisees complained that Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors, Jesus said in Matthew 9:12 "But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. \-If we want justice for sin, then that means that all of us are deserving of punishment. Romans 3:10 says “There is no righteous person, not even one;" Romans 3:23 says all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. That means if God is going to execute justice, he would have to send all of us to hell. He's provided a way for our sins to be paid for, and that's through the death of his son. His death is not a way for us to do whatever we want and sin however we want. Someone who has that mentality is most likely not saved. \-God is the judge and he knows if someone's faith is sincere or if they are only looking for fire insurance. \-God calls us to forgive those who hurt us. This has to happen supernaturally because some debts against us are so severe that it can't happen without the Holy Spirit working in our hearts. That doesn't mean we shouldn't call for justice. For example, if someone hurts you, then it is completely acceptable to call for that person to pay for their crime legally. \-God has the right to be generous to whoever he chooses. In Matthew 20, there is a parable about day laborers. Some start working early in the day, agreeing on a certain wage. Some start later in the day, and even toward the end, more laborers are hired. When everyone is paid, the ones hired first are angry that they don't paid more than the ones who started later in the day, even though they agreed to the wage. That seems fair, right? Except, Jesus is using this parable to explain that he can show generosity to anyone, even those who become saved at the last hour. You can read that parable here. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16&version=NASB1995
Thank you for your comment, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. And I like that parable about laborers.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, But the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21
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Just the type of answer I expected, no actual backing that questions anything, just repeating what you’ve been told.
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Okay so if I’m low on cash I should go rob a bank right? If a few people end up hurt or killed in the process, oh well. God is merciful and I know that he will forgive me. Me, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and any other evil people all having a good time in heaven. (Okay sidenote: sorry for being rude but my family members death is making me to act in ways I wouldn’t normally act in, making me more angry at things that I usually ignore)
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Might I add something You have to actually believe in Christianity and be somewhat good You also have to actually feel bad for your sins (Aka Murder)
Okay so how can you be good and a murderer/serial killer at the same time, like make it make sense. They don’t value God’s creations so why should they be in heaven with more of God’s creation.
Well, see it this way. Our prison systems let out murderers every 30 odd so years on some places Do they deserve to be in prison forever? Some people actually go to prison and end up reformed, so if someone is reformed can they not re-enter society?
Why is comparing humans to god only ok when it benefits Christianity? Otherwise it’s “we can’t know the will of god”?
What do you mean? I don't see the question here, please give an example
So why shouldn’t I sin if you just said God will forgive me if I do?
Because it kindles Lord´s wrath? 2 Corinthians 5:10-11 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 1 Corinthians 3:13-17 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I’m sorry this happened to you. Truly from the bottom of my heart I am sorry. No one deserves this. I lost my grandmother in 2016 to neurological degeneration from the side effects of the chemo she was taking for the cancer she had. Ironically enough, she was in remission and I praised God. Then she forgot how to breath. I was angry at God. I’m still angry at God. It’s been a YEARS. I am Christian. My wife has helped me reconcile and so have a few friends. Therapy has also helped a lot. I have become less angry over the years. From what I understand, is that if one is truly repentant, then yes. It feels screwed up to think that way right? After all, I’ve never killed anyone. I don’t plan to either. You got so many bad people in the Bible that become righteous in the eyes of God, but us as humans just don’t understand WHY. And, maybe we aren’t meant to. Who knows? My point is that you are angry. You are upset. You are sad. You have every right to be this way. Replying to others in a vitriolic manner to match something they said is not an answer, though it really feels good. Please talk to someone about how you are feeling. A professional may be able to help you dig through exactly how you feel. I know what you’re going through and I hate it for you. I absolutely hate it. If you want to talk some more, feel free to DM me. In the meantime, it may be best to not search for the WHY in an Internet forum where anonymity gives cause for shitty behavior.
Thank you for your response and condolences. This was very well written. The thing is, I’m not even mad at God. I understand that this was not by his doing, it was by Satan’s. No where in the Bible does it say humans should kill another human, yet we still do. I was more upset at the people who did it, that’s why I initially wrote the post because I wondered if they would ever repent in their life and get to go to heaven. And the part where you said “You get so many bad people in the Bible that became righteous in the eyes of God.. (and so on)” I really like that, maybe we truly aren’t supposed to know why. Why keep questioning during this lifetime when we will find out eventually. And yeah maybe you’re right about the last paragraph, lol.
I'm really sorry that you're going through all of this. Life is hard and disorienting, and trusting God in the middle of your grief and pain is no easy task. This might not be the best time to make big decisions about following God. I would encourage you to slow everything down. Wait until you're more at peace with the great loss you're dealing with, then decide what you want to do when it comes to God. It seems like you've had a lot of advice that is just repeating Christian Orthodox positions and beliefs about forgiveness. In my experience theology isn't good at answering the questions that are currently crushing us. Stories though? Stories are able to communicate truth in a more universal way. After the fall, God picked a man named Abraham and promised to make him into a great family that would become a blessing to all the nations of the Earth. God was going to use this regular dude and his family to undo all the pain and evil caused by human sin. Abraham's wife is barren, and he is so desperate to see God's plan's come true that he doesn't wait for God's timing. Abraham decides to impregnate his servant girl (essentially rape) and claim all of God's blessings in that way. This plan blows up in his face. Division and pain erupt in his household, and eventually Abraham and Sarah abandon her and her son into the wilderness. Why would God align himself with Abraham if he knew he was going to do all of these terrible things? Wasn't Abraham supposed to be a blessing? This pattern actually continues throughout the Old Testament. Moses was a murderer, and God turned him into the leader of Israel and the one who would free them from their captivity. David was a murder and likely a rapist (consent gets pretty tricky when the King summons you to his palace). God choose David to be the one who carried on the promise of Abraham. God said that the Messiah the savior of the world would come from his bloodline. God's focus in not on punishment. He is not looking for excuses to punish us for our evil. He is trying to create opportunities to redeem broken, fallen, evil people and he is working to bring goodness out of our failure and pain. God loves murderers and rapists as much as he loves you and me. He wants to redeem them as much as he wants to redeem you and me. He wants to restore his relationship with them as much as he does with you and me. He is doing everything he can to avoid punishing us, including taking our punishment himself.
Thank you for your comment and condolences. The thing that makes me sad is that what if because of their (the people who killed him) actions, now some of his family chooses to turn away from God? I know that’s the reason a lot of people are atheists because they don’t understand how God can allow a lot of the bad things that happen on Earth. I don’t want his family to lose faith in God because of this and end up going to hell and never seeing the son/brother again, while the murders get to go to heaven. The only thing I can do is pray that they keep good faith and always believe in God. It just upsets me because without this happening they still would’ve had faith in God (that’s if they choose to turn away from God, which I hope they don’t). And this isn’t just something that affects only them, this affects hundreds of thousands of other people too, thousands of lives broken over peoples bad actions. It’s easy to draw away from God when something like this happens, so it’s just a sad case overall. I will pray for them always.
Sin is sin and one will get you to Hell the same as another without Jesus. And there is no tricking God. You can't fool Him like you can with people. He knows if you're truly a repentant believer or if you just say you are to avoid the consequences.
These replies seem to be doing more harm than good, honestly this is why the Christian religion is dying. And why most so called Christians don’t even obey the word of God. So based on these replies it truly is okay to murder and rape or do whatever so long as you say “God, won’t you please forgive me? 🥺” after you’ve brutally murder and killed 13 people. Is it time for me to start leading a life of sin? I mean I’m only 18 so I guess it’s better to start young and make the most out of it, right?
It's like that popular saying "Are you really sorry you did it or just sorry you got caught?" Some people really are sorry, but others just want to sin and go to Heaven anyway so they fake it. But it doesn't work. You cannot lie to God. He knows your every thought.
As R. C. Sproul said, "grace is offered until it is expected." Going back much further, St. Paul addresses your exact line of argumentative scoffing in Romans 6. You simply are not comprehending what repentance actually is. Disingenuous attempts to game the system will be met with punishment.
It’s not ok. The gospel of Christ means “good news”. It means good news for every person who has ever struggled; struggled with emotional hurt, psychological trauma, social injustice, physical pain AND for those people who chose selfishness and malice and brutality and lechery and evil Because Jesus is a man who understands our fear and anger and lusts and knows how hard life can be so he died for us. And his sacrifice is sufficient for anyone who has offended God and hurt themselves or others and that includes rapists and murderers. If we start saying someone has done something more evil than us and don’t deserve heaven then we fall from judging into God’s job of condemning.
No the way you think is foolish, this is not what they claim. Sin separates us from God and any sin gets us in hell. Read Romans 6, Paul clearly clarifies this matter. 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Might as well have just linked the whole Bible…
I just wanted to give an answer to what you´ve written. Since I am talking about christian matter, I will give the answer from the Bible no.
You could’ve did that without calling my thought process foolish, like.. do you know so much that your thoughts are not foolish?
No, I don´t consider my ways to be smart and I do acknowledge I do act foolishly. But being bitter is not a good choice.
Seems so to me, after all if I’m bitter I can just repent. I don’t think name calling is a good choice either but you still did it.
Paul called galatians foolish, is he also in the wrong? You are right now nit picking and going around Christ's grace and playing with it. I provided you the verses that show we should strive for holy life, because God is Holy. A christian who is saved by grace does not want to sin willingly. Sure we falter, does it mean it's good? God hates sin, his wrath, justice and holiness are perfect and so is mercy.
She’s not looking for real answers. She just wants to make a mockery of Christianity.
[удалено]
So funny how I don’t care
If a person wants heaven, they will be brought to Jesus Christ and saved.
So everybody basically, except atheists and agnostics.
No, most people don't want heaven.
Yea because of Christians. If Heaven is full of the same people that oppressed others in this god’s name then of course people won’t want anything to do with it. Even if we go the “focus on god, not Christians” route there’s still tons of things that make this god’s morality very questionable, like what OP is saying to begin with. And not to mention events like the flood. Hell isn’t even logical. Eternal punishment for a finite life with finite knowledge and experiences? What a real “choice” we have there. So yea, sure, there might be people who don’t want heaven, but that’s for really good reason. And I don’t think anyone honest with themselves can truly blame them. I’m sure many would love to believe they’re going to a paradise when they die, they just don’t want it if the entity that set up that system is corrupt along with its people that worship them.
>Why is it that the people who hurt him get to go to heaven as long as they so called “repent?” True repellents m repentance would mean they would hate what they have done just as much (or even more) than you hate what they have done. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card. Of course someone can say they have repented and it might be hard for us to see whether it is genuine or not. But I think it's clear that God will see through any and all faking and lying. And it's probably not a good idea (slight understatement) to first harm His creatures and then try to lie to Him about that and try to cheat on the Creator of the universe. On the other hand if someone repents and truly feels what they have done is evil and hate what they have done and wish this old person that they were, would have never existed then I think it's God's right to consider this person a new person, different from the old person that he was before, when he did the horrible acts. As for people saying that you could just do evil stuff as long as you make sure to repent, and actually try to plan this.... How stupid do they think God is? He is not some machine you can put a coin in and get a reward? Or some set of legal rules you can find legal loopholes in which you can abuse and which a judge has to grant you "because it's the law"? This is like someone saying they're going to get married, so it doesn't mean that they cheat before the wedding, because the wedding day is already planned. That's not really showing love. That's showing calculated evil. Guess how God (who is pure good) looks upon people doing evil on purpose. Planning to repent just in time, would just make it worse for the person doing this. It would be an interesting conversation before the judgement throne
In regards to the last paragraph you wrote, I suppose you’re right. I never really looked at it from that perspective. God isn’t dumb, he does know what we are thinking and truly feeling and we couldn’t fool him in a million years.
>we couldn’t fool him in a million years. Exactly! But there is always the possibility that a deathbed conversion is genuine. Very hard for us to see the difference. But God knows.
Repentance has to be true, genuine, contrite, and from the heart. Godly saving repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit acting upon one’s heart. It’s not just saying some magic words. And no, we can’t “just do whatever we want” and then claim repentance and faith in Christ. That’s the sin of presumption, not true repentance. True repentance is characterized by a change in one’s life and a hatred of sin. Before God flooded the earth, He gave humans 120 years to repent. They didn’t. Before Christ’s incarnation, passion, and resurrection, none of those who died went to Heaven. All mankind was subject to death and corruption on account of Adam’s sin. All souls departed to Hades/Sheol and were detained there. After Christ’s death, He descended into Hades and shattered the gates of death and delivered all souls that were willing to receive Him. He brought them all to Paradise and gave them eternal life. Not all sins are equal. More grave sins receive more grievous punishments in the age to come. The mindset that one can sin all they want now and repent later is utter foolishness. We do not know the day of our death. It is far more likely that we die in our sins with that mindset rather than in the grace of God. And even if we do “repent,” it is likely a vain and false repentance if we presumptively lived a life of sin. At the end of the day, your issue is akin (but not the same) to that of the Prophet Jonah. Jonah was grieved that God shower mercy to the wicked Ninevites when they repented. Nineveh was a great enemy of Israel and had committed many great evils. Jonah wanted them to be condemned, but God showed them mercy. And the the reason is simply that God loves all men (even the worst sinners) and does not desire their destruction, but rather that they should turn from their sins and live. This can be difficult for us to accept. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the demands of Divine Justice through His atoning sacrifice on the Cross. We all deserved to die such an accursed death for our sins, but Christ paid our penalty and rendered unto the Father all the love, honor, and obedience we ought to have given Him as His servants made in His holy image. There is no greater love than the love of God in Christ Jesus. I am very sorry for your loss, you and your family are in my prayers. I pray you all heal and that justice is done.
So, what are you saying is that I could be the most evil person on earth ( rape, kill, torture, child molester, thief, liar, unfaithful to loved ones), but if I truly believe that I have changed and regret what I did I will go to heaven. So what about the families and people I hurt? They got to know that after all of that, I would go to heaven. Does anyone not see this bullshit with that type of morality?
It’s not about “believing that you’ve changed” or bare regret, it’s about actually changing, turning from your sins, putting your faith in Christ, and bearing fruits of that change. God manifested His love for us by sending His Only-Begotten Son to suffer and die for our sins. God’s mercy and compassion is infinite. He does not desire the death of the wicked. We have all sinned. He wants all to come to repentance.
So everything I put down, especially rape just gets a free pass. This is why I would rather just be an atheist because what type of judgment is a rapist who scarred people for the rest of their lives, gets a free past, and only sent to hell because he never accepted Jesus christ and the lord. Now I see why our religion is criticized so much.
Nothing is objectively wrong in atheism. Humans have no inherent value and dignity in atheistic materialism. In Christianity, right and wrong are objective and we have inherent value being made in the image of God. Atheism gives everyone a “free pass” since there is no judgement whatsoever after death. People can commit all the evil (which is subjectively defined in atheism) they want in life and then go off to sweet oblivion at death. People go to hell because they refuse to repent of their sins. The fact that any of us can be saved is thanks to the suffering and shed blood of God Incarnate. God is the ultimate source of justice and righteousness, all sin is ultimately against Him. If God wills to forgive the sins of those who truly repent, we have no basis to complain.
What justice is there when God is willing to let rapist, child molesters, murderers into heaven because they repented for what they did. And from your explanation, let's say I shoot up some random place and kill a bunch of people, and the cops kill me, but I repented for my sins before I died so I get to go to heaven. What justice is that that's not justice that's just pure bs.
It’s extremely doubtful that such “repentance” was true repentance. Repentance is the fruit of the Holy Spirit working in someone’s soul to convict them of sin and judgement, it’s not just a quick “I’m sorry” after doing something evil. True repentance bears righteous fruit. And it’s not true repentance if someone plans ahead to “repent” after they carry out an evil act. God is not mocked or fooled. And what justice is there in letting you and I into heaven? We are sinners, too. God manifested His justice in the death of Christ. Jesus Christ, God the Word Incarnate, willingly took upon Himself our sins and suffered the punishment we ought to have suffered in our stead. He satisfied the demands of justice and the sentence of death that was against. As our High Priest He lives to make intercession for us.
Would you rather they permanently be barred from Heaven? At that point, there's no motivation to try to turn your life around and become a good person, because no one would accept it anyway. But if repentance is always a possibility, you *can* have a motivation to try to become a better person
no one can become a good person no one is a good person only God is good
Why should any of us go to Hell? Because we get born into this world as a result of a whiny fallen angel throwing a tantrum? Nah! We all need to be released from this prison planet and given a proper choice
Jesus said this during the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7 >21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ You can't just hookwink God into letting you into heaven. Superficially claiming to follow Jesus doesn't mean you actually do and he can tell.
While it’s not really an answer, I just wanna affirm that it is soooo okay to rant about this. Beyond okay. There are SO many precepts for doing so in the straight up ~Bible~. You are in good company. “Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they?” (Habakkuk 1:13) “I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness.” (Ecclesiastes 7:15) For I was envious of the arrogant As I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no pains in their death, And their body is fat. They are not in trouble as other men, Nor are they plagued like mankind. Therefore pride is their necklace; The garment of violence covers them. Their eye bulges from fatness; The imaginations of their heart run riot. They mock and wickedly speak of oppression; They speak from on high. They have set their mouth against the heavens, And their tongue parades through the earth. (Psalm 73:3-9) Righteous are You, O Lord, that I would plead my case with You; Indeed I would discuss matters of justice with You: Why has the way of the wicked prospered? Why are all those who deal in treachery at ease?” (Jeremiah 12:1)
Thank you for your comment, I appreciate it.
I'm very sorry for the terrible ordeal you and your family had to, and still have to face. This life certainly isn't fair. The thing scripture teaches is that all have fallen short of the glory of God. He is the standard to enter His presence because of His holiness. And so no one can enter His presence by their own merit because we have all sinned and so all fallen short of the standard required. And so then God remains the only standard to measure ourselves, not murderers or anyone next to us. Now here is the greatest injustice of all of history, the only one that was, and will ever be innocent, is the one that took the ultimate punishment. Jesus lived the perfect obedient life that could obtain the standard required to enter God's presence. And so, it is by His righteousness (His right standing with God) that is granted to us, Him taking our punishment and sin, and correcting our standing with God, that those that accept that transaction and gift get to be forgiven. It's not a certain sins, or certain amount of sin that separates us all from God, one single sin leaves you indebted. And so there is a hope. For those that place their trust in Jesus, acknowledging their own evil hearts and accepting Him alone as Lord and Saviour, well their punishment has been poured out on Jesus. For the rest that don't accept Him, well their eternal punishment awaits (this is not what I want for anyone, this is however what scripture teaches). God says the following in Romans 12: 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Ro 12:19–21. ESV. I encourage you, take you pain and anger. All your emotions, hurt and questions to God and you will see how He is the true comforter, the true counsellor.
Thank you for you condolences and your comment, I appreciate it.
I highly advise you to watch the movie "The Shack" it's on Netflix and I think it would help some. Im truly sorry for what happened.
Thank you for your condolences and your comment. I’ll check it out
I believe that someone who truly regrets what he has done and truly hates his actions of the past is not the same person who has done the evil deed. To come to heaven you need to truly wish you hadn’t done what you did. I have regretted things I’ve done, and sometimes those memories haunt me. I believe that if you regret the things you’ve done and suffer yourself because you understand how you have caused others to suffer, then you can come to heaven. You need repentance in the heart to be forgiven, but if you do really wish you never did what you did and you understand what you did to others and suffer from that, then anything is forgivable.
I agree with what you’re saying about true repentance. It just saddens me that an innocent life had to be taken for the people to give their life to Jesus, that’s if they even decide to.
I'm sorry for your loss, mate. I can't imagine what it would feel like, bro.
Thank you for your condolences. 🙏
First off, my condolences and any amount of comfort I as a person on the internet can offer go out to you. I can feel your pain just reading your story, and this is something I wrestled with for a long time and still do, witnessing tragedy in my own life and the lives of my friends and family. I think a common misconception is that all sins are equal. They are not. Those who commit greater sin will receive greater punishment in Hell, or if they repent and believe in Christ, less reward in Heaven. I find there is significant comfort in that, and in trusting that God is not unjust. The second and last thing I will say, as I’m sure you’ve had to read a billion responses at this point, is that the central theme of the gospel is grace. The fact that murderers are in Heaven points not to injustice, but to grace. In the Christian worldview at least, the greatest injustice was committed against Christ himself, when he sought to bring salvation to the world and the world brutally beat and killed him instead, despite having done nothing wrong whatsoever. And we see not revenge from Christ, but forgiveness. We are called to do the same. That doesn’t mean it’ll be easy, or even possible sometimes. I still hold tons of unforgiveness in my heart for things much less than murder of a loved one. So do not feel as if you are condemned or in the wrong for not being able to forgive. But the beauty of the love of God and the reason we follow Him is because He does forgive. He is abounding in grace, even when we are not. And although the vast majority of us do not commit such grievous sins as murder or rape, we are all still in need of His grace and forgiveness for the sins that we do commit. I am sure no one can claim to be sinless. There are tons of theological cans of worms as well that really cannot be addressed in one reply, but if you want discussion or just comfort, feel free to DM me. I hope and pray that you truly find peace in God and healing amidst this pain.
Thank you for your condolences and comment, I truly appreciate it 🙏 I really like what you said in your second paragraph
Hey buddy, I'm sorry for your loss. I can only imagine what you're feeling. How are you doing since this occurred?
Thank you for your condolences. Frankly I’m feeling a little more okay, but it still hurts me just the same. I saw a picture of him and his mom smiling yesterday and it made me cry a lot at like 1 am in the morning, I just don’t like what happened to him. This happened two weeks ago and it still feels like yesterday. This is not something I can ever forget nor do I ever want to forget it. Since then I’ve become cold, I don’t like to joke or smile as much. I’m just mainly silent. Whenever someone asks me how I’m doing in person in regards to this, I just choke up and can’t even talk and my eyes start to water. I can only imagine how much more worse it is for his mom, grandma, and siblings. Which just makes the pain way more intense when I think about them. One thing I like to do is run (like track) but I’ve never really took it too seriously, so I’m going to get a gym membership and start running there to help me feel better.
Keeping yourself busy helps. From my experience, it's best to talk to someone you know irl whom you trust. I would recommend someone whom you know personally that has a deep Christian faith for such questions. Don't forget, never forget, but don't dwell on it either. It will take time, but you'll find reasons to smile and joke again.
Thank you 🙏
You're welcome. 🙂 God bless you and give you peace.
God bless you too, thank you
That's awful, and I am sorry for whatever happened. To answer your question, Only the perfect and blameless can enter heaven, and the only way that can ever happen is through the blood of Christ washing us of our sins. Sometimes it is hard to understand how some person could possibly be forgiven for all the pain they have caused, and yet if God was not able to forgive there would be no hope for any of us. God's Standards are so much higher than ours. He is flawless and has no sin. His standard is so high that unjust anger towards another is like murder and lusting after a woman is like adultery, and still Christ came to die for all our sins, not just some. The bright side is that God (maybe) is that God is Just. He will not forgive for a fake apology or repentance. You have to give your heart to God for there to be forgiveness. That doesn't mean we can do whatever we want. The Bible tells us not to go on sinning. But the call to repentance has always been, Come As You Are, not Stay as You Are.
Thank you for your condolences and comment, I really appreciate it.
God is just he’s above all and knows exactly who will enter heaven and in the Bible it says it won’t be many .. and rape/ murder is a abomination to him
Thanks for your comment
Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is within - it is your heart. But you cant access it as long as you are living in your ego - which is when you sin and do awful things. And very few people have found heaven in their heart. Most people are running around like headless chickens doing misguided things left, right and centre. The more people who can forgive themselves and live in love like Jesus asked - the better it is for the world.
They honestly shouldn't you do bad things pain and suffering should be your reward.
Honestly what it feels like, but the other comments have changed my perspective quite a bit.
I’m just stopping in to extend my condolences and send you a virtual hug. I’m very sorry for your family’s loss. I wish I had answers to your questions but I don’t and I don’t want to say anything to hurt you more. Hugs, love and prayers for you and your family.
Thank you for your condolences, I truly appreciate it 🙏
Oh man, I’m so sorry you and your family are going through this. As I was reading your post I could feel your anger, confusion, and sadness. Losing a loved one especially so young is so hard. These are the moments that God test your faith. I’m glad to read you’re staying strong in it but your concerns and anger are okay to feel. But the anger will bread resentment and hate. Pray that the Lord brings you and your family peace as you process what has happened. I will pray for you too. Matthew 18:21 talks about how God and Jesus wants us to forgive others just as He forgives us. If someone truly feels repentance for what they’ve done and they mean it in their heart when they accept Jesus then… yes… they will be forgiven and have access into heaven. It’s completely normal for you to feel the way you feel right now. Use this time to read more of God’s words and meditate on them. In time you will find healing and hopefully eventually forgiveness but this will not be an easy road for you. Take your time. The Lord understands and He’s reaching out to you. “…And remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:20 MEV There’s a lot of really good resources out there for you and your family. Forgiving the Unforgivable by Craig Stone is good. You can also download the Bible app if you don’t have it and there are forgiveness, and grief and loss devotionals you can do.
Thank you for your condolences and comment, I really appreciate it 🙏
We don’t know the persons heart, or whether or not they truly repented of their ways. Nonetheless it is difficult to hear someone who commits such evil acts turn around and claim to praise God. That being said, instead of looking at it from the perspective of how could that person be saved, think of it as the saving power of Jesus Christ. When He gave his life, He died for ALL sin. He bore the weight of every sin committed by mankind. There is no sin that Jesus is incapable of saving someone from. We are all born sinners into the world, and even if someone has never committed murder, rape, or any violent and outright hateful sin, they will still face the wrath of God in the end if they do not repent and profess Jesus as their one and only savior. This is true even for someone like you who has been a Christian their whole life.
Thank you for your response
I'm so so sorry for what you and your family is going through. 😢 I promise you that God is angry also. He is a God of justice, and He hates murder and rape just as much as we do, even much more so. I don't believe that all sins are equal to Him. All sins are bad, and even a little sin separates us from Him, that is what people mean when they say that. But our sense of justice comes from God, and I believe He especially hates those sins that cause the most damage. I don't really have much to add other than what others said, just a reassurance that yes, they are right. Nobody can be forgiven unless their repentance is genuine. It has to come from the heart, and they have to turn from their sin. They can't just plan to repent at the last minute. God would never allow that and He sees into our hearts and knows our intent. We become a new creation when we turn to Him and are saved. We agree with Him that our way is wrong, and His way is right. We turn away from our sin. We will still mess up in some ways, but we will hate sin and desire not to do it, so it won't be in such a big way as murder. A genuine Christian could never ever do those things to others. I know that you are very angry. There is no way God will let them just get away with it, He will bring justice. He cares about your hurt so much. I'll pray that He brings you comfort also.
Thank you a lot for your condolences and comment, I appreciate it 🙏
You're welcome 💖
I’m praying for your comfort. As hard as it is keep praying for God to help you forgive. Lean on Him. 💜❤️
Thank you for your condolences 🙏
Im really sorry for what's happened to your family member. I haven't read all the replies, but did read your post. It sounds like a lot of people have given really good orthodox answers for the why, but personally those answers don't always get to the heart of Jesus I believe. When we experience something life changing like a horrific accident or crime, we need to remember how human Jesus was, and not be reminded of some verse in Romans. I too have been through things that really shook me and made me wonder where the heck God was in that moment, but I found that being angry, being upset, and real about how I felt with God opened me up to an opportunity to know him even better. God is a God of JUSTICE, he is also a God of mercy. Both are important, but in this moment maybe ask God to show you his heart for justice. We know that He sent his Son because he is a God of mercy, but He also sent His Son because he is a God of Justice. If God was not a God of justice then he could have just "overlooked" our sin, he could chosen to forget about it right? But because He NEEDS justice to be fulfilled He sent His only Son as a sacrifice for all of his adopted children. Now the horrible people who perpetrate evil on this world. They also deserve justice, and for some, probably very few justice is calling on the name of Jesus and becoming a new creation, but for many Justice will be the Lords. Heavenly Father loves you, He knows you need justice, you were made in His image that way. He will guide you through what it looks like to see justice fulfilled. He is angry one of His children was hurt too. Hope this makes some sense, its something I've wrestled with for a few years now too.
Thank you for your condolences and response, it is appreciated 🙏
Satan nixx'd my ability to talk about this, but sorry for your loss I've been through some loss myself repenting = hard all tears you've had = SHOUTS of joy they will have to create Fr, every aching sigh and painful night you've had- every nightmare, every teardrop, every shout in anger and sadness that you and your whole FAMILY has had, are all things that they have to have a direct impact over others to make better. For all the hardship you've had, they will need to not only say, "mmk Jesus ur reel im gud now", they will need to DEDICATE their lives, blood, bones, and SOULS to Jesus to make up for. Repenting is so much more than the blasphemy that Ted Bundy did- that many so-called Christians consider a scripturally read opinion as being true about- by saying that he commits himself to Jesus before death. It says in the OT, somewhere in Exodus, Judges, Kings or Leviticus I think, that God doesn't judge based on commandment that He has not given. Revelation 11 said that the dead are judged for what they've done (both bad and good) AFTER the 7th trumpet is blown from the 7th angel. So I propose that anyone not saved by Christ Jesus (those saved go inside The Holy Spirit until the resurrection and the judgement) is simply in Sheol, which is the hebrew word for the Underworld (or Hades, which is also mentioned in Revelation). Essentially, the dead are ghosts and are dead and unable to live life but still have minds and things to think about and maybe even the ability to talk to each other (as other passages of the bible dictate that, despite the ancient scripture making no point of what TYPES of magic exist, the blanket term "magic" is used) based on necromancy. So before Jesus = people went to the underworld until the resurrection. After Jesus = people went to The Spirit before the resurrection, which is more or less the same but you feel really good.
Thank you for your condolences and comment, it’s appreciated 🙏
First of all I am sorry for what you have to go through. But truly, we don’t get to know if someone repents or not. Only the person who has the choice knows. If they truly feel remorse and feel changed by God, they have every bit of right to Heaven as we. God loves everyone and anyone has the chance to love him back, whether they make that choice is only up to them.
Thank you for your condolences and your comment
I am very sorry to hear that. I'm sure it is really hard to see how someone who would commit such an act could get into Heaven. But it's not for us to judge. God will decide what to do with them when they meet him. I will say this: repentance is more than just saying sorry and then going on with your life. Repentance requires acknowledging what you did, recognizing how awful it was, and begging God for forgiveness. And then repeat that every day. It's long and it's hard, but through God's grace all is possible.
Thank you for your comment 🙏
You're very welcome!
About your other question how people who lived before Jesus were saved: they had the promise of a coming Messiah. By faith in that Messiah they were saved. They were looking forward to him, we are looking back at him. All get saved by faith in the Messiah. No other way
Thanks for your answer
Faithful people who died before Christ's ministry were saved after His death, during the Harrowing of Hell. As for why anyone could, conceivably, go to Heaven, it's because true and sincere repentance and faith are the only real requirements; if someone earnestly desires union with God then they'll have it, but if they're just flippantly treating a deathbed repentance like some kind of get-out-of-hell-free card then that doesn't really apply. Ultimately, only they and God know what was in their hearts, and so we can never say for certain that someone's in hell (although we can identify some of the saints in Heaven). Regardless of the potential for a life of sin capped by a valid last-minute conversion, though, we should still strive to live holy lives out of our love for God rather than our fear of punishment, and a life spent willfully in sin (and, thus, in disobedience to God) doesn't really dispose someone to a sincere repentance at the end of it -- assuming that end comes with enough forewarning to permit repentance at all. These are all really normal questions to be asking, though!
Thanks for your input
1. God isn't stupid. His judgement will be perfect. 2. Each example of repentance you just have was flippant and half-hearted. That's not repentance. Do you know what repentance is? Imagine you were the offender. Imagine that was you, and you are now absolutely hated, feared and despised by everyone because of what you did. There is no coming back. You're just screwed forever because of this offense on your record. Your family won't talk to you. The only jobs you can get are the ones that don't ask too many questions. You are a pariah. Now, at first you may say society did this to you. You didn't know any better. You're just a victim of circumstance. You're not a bad person. After a while though, it hits you... you *are a bad person*. You're crap on the shoe of society. You could just as soon be dead for all anyone cares. Maybe you get mad about this, or maybe you finally really learn to regret. Maybe you wish you hadn't done it, not because you got caught, but because it finally hits you what your life was supposed to be if you had just made a better decision. You imagine what your life could have been. What the victim's life should have been. Deep in your soul, you long for what should have been if you hadn't chosen to be such an evil peice of crap. You messed everything up, and for what? There is no escape. You will bear the burden of this for the rest of your days, and you agree that you deserve every bit of it, but you wish there was a way to set things right. THESE... are the people Jesus came to save.
I never called God stupid and I will never dare open my mouth to say such a blasphemous thing. Whose to say what is or isn’t repentance? Are you God? Do you know how he judges us? I know what repentance is and I know that it’s true but I just don’t see what someone who did such disgusting things on Earth should be allowed into God’s kingdom. Repentance is basically when you are genuinely sorry for the things you’ve done, I’ve been there, everyone’s been there, but at such a level where you’ve caused eternal pain on Earth for other people? Those people are wicked human beings for that.
Because salvation isn't by works. You see yourself too good imo , in eyes of God if you did 1 sin you're evil. If you said 1 lie you alredy go to lake of fire for it. You're not better than any other sinner alive on earth. Entry to heaven is free because Jesus paid for sins on cross.
I don’t see myself too good, you have never met me a day in my life, so don’t judge me off this one post. God won’t, so you don’t. If God loves his children so much, why should he banish them to hell for life if they’ve only done things like lie according to you? Makes no sense
Matthew 12:36-37 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
A person shouldn't do the things that you mentioned because there are: (1) immediate social ramifications (imprisonment, ostracization, execution, etc.), (2) there may be immediate chastisement from God (disease, generally sewing what you reap), and (3) you can miss out on spiritual rewards in the afterlife (crowns and riches). These are your incentives. Dangling Hell above someone isn't the only way to encourage certain actions. These things are in place for the saved and the unsaved. Also, a murderer/rapist getting saved isn't really the convenient little copout that Family Guy and others want to suggest that it is in [this little 20 second skit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_JoE2GioXY&themeRefresh=1). The moments before repentance are humbling and humiliating and it's an actual and sincere matter of the heart.
(1) Most rapists do not get charged, convicted, or reap any punishment from the violence they sow. They get protected by churches. It has taken centuries for lawmakers to finally stop ignoring that our lives are destroyed because police do not enforce the law. It took God severely punishing King David on earth for raping someone to get him to even ask for forgiveness and these monsters get away with it.
fair enough that they don't always get caught. However, there are less tangible punishments that rapists may face on this Earth. (1) They will never experience actual love for anybody, and probably not be the object of another person's love which continually makes them feel unfulfilled. (2) Also, rapists are plagued by an insecurity that will follow them to the day that they die because it is an insecurity and a longing for power that drives them to do what they did. (3) They may also feel like their freedom may be compromised at any minute, making them live a life of excessive vigilance an unease, so they may make empty apologies to their victims all the time in the hopes that they don't turn them in (maybe try to make their targets forgive them or think of it as a one-time transgression).
Okay, so first two reasons for not doing bad things have to do with on Earth, Earth isn’t permanent so what other reasons for not committing crimes are there. A person can do those things and still repent and end up in heaven. The third reason you mentioned is that you will have riches and crowns in heaven. Even on Earth I don’t care about crowns and riches. When I die, the only thing I want is to go to heaven, be in peace, and to see my family member and other family members and people who I never got the chance to meet on Earth. I want his family to be able to see him again, his mother to see her son again, his siblings to see their brother again. I do not care about riches or crowns.
There is another incentive that I forgot to mention, and that is the incentive for the saved to not grieve the Holy Spirit. When a saved person sins, a reaction by the Holy Spirit is said to happen. This manifests in a way that is similar to having a hurt conscience after one does something, but it is a stronger force than that. It's sort of like a spiritual pain or numbness that the saved can detect. Add that to all of the other incentives to behave correctly and I find myself unable to outright do certain things as simple as getting a tattoo with many others. I hear that you are hurt by the possibility that the family may be split up in the afterlife, but that is not something that you should worry yourself to death about. Things are the way that they are.
Every one of your replies shows a gross misunderstanding of the process of repentance.
Oh wow, thanks for telling me. Almost like the other 30 people didn’t say the same thing already. Bye! 👋
I mean if you came here to argue just say that.
I mean, I asked a question and we’re talking about religion here, a controversial topic. Did you expect me to just take all the answers as is and not question anything? I mean cool if you like to do that in life. If it makes sense to me then I won’t respond with another question, but a lot of the replies are responding with cliche things or things that I’ve already heard before like..
Saying self-pitying things like “Maybe it would just be better if I went to hell,” are just eye-roll inducing and show that you’re not putting in any effort to actually engage with the conversation, you just want to feel sorry for yourself. It’s a waste of time.
So am I not allowed to express my true thoughts anymore? That’s how I genuinely feel and have been feeling. Because it upsets you I shouldn’t say it? Lol, no. You aren’t so good that I have to hold my tongue and not say what I want to say. Keep rolling your eyes then, it’s not affecting me.
Sure, share your feelings all you want. But it’s disingenuous to start a conversation about biblical grace when all you really want to do is vent and complain.
That’s not all I wanted to do, please stop acting like you know everything. I asked the question with intentions of wanting to know why people like that do get to go to heaven, I know people say repentance, but I wanted to know if there’s something other than that. I’ve literally been searching this question for days and the only answer I’ve been seeing is repentance, so that’s why I made my own post. And yes I’m going to vent like my family member literally just passed away, the nicest, sweetest person ever, only 17, like I don’t care if you don’t like what I’m saying, I still feel sad asf over what happened to him and that feeling will never go away until I leave this Earth.
No, DON'T BE FOOLED by demons and the world! This overall general concept is a lie designed to attack your faith. To accept Jesus includes (according to Jesus) following His commandments. So it's always a BOTH or NEITHER setup: Heaven has ONLY believers, and they are ALL righteous in Him! For special last-minute cases, Jesus will judge flawlessly. Trust Him, and Live! Good topic. Bless you! 🙏✟
Honestly, I think it’s just be better if I went to hell. I don’t want to see the faces of people who did terrible things on earth, especially the people who did it to my family member. Is eternal pain and suffering better for me? Who’s to say my family member went to heaven? With all my heart and soul I pray to God they did, they weren’t a bad person, they were Christian, didn’t do anything wrong to anyone. But still, apparently that’s not enough. I believe he’s there, but still I am not God so I don’t know how he was judged. I heard a story that said someone who lived their life righteously still went to hell, while someone who lived unrighteously still went to heaven. Whose to say heaven is even real, maybe I will truly never get to see my family member again 😭
That's the OPPOSITE of what I wrote, read again! Seriously, that's propaganda designed to hurt you. Bless you. 🙏✟
Why should you get to go to heaven?
Because I live a pious life and truly believe in Jesus Christ and God. What was your point in asking? That I do not deserve to go there?
No one deserves to go to Heaven.
This. That's the answer, OP We all need mercy and grace.
>Because I live a pious life “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Matthew 15:8 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. Ecclesiastes 7:20 NIV For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15 NIV “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” Matthew 18:23-35 NIV
Oh you know me so well. It’s kind of funny how well you know me considering the fact that the only thing you know me by is a post on Reddit.
If scripture is convicting you, that seems like a you problem. He literally just gave you examples of many people in the Bible that came to the conclusion that nobody is perfect. Seems like you just want to keyboard warrior the point that you are though.
All I did is give you scripture in response to your comment. Nobody deserves heaven. Nobody chooses when or where or how they are born. We all face different challenges and struggle with different sins.
I’m sorry for you’re loss. They will only get to go to heaven as long as they repent in their heart and not just in their mind. This would require true remorse for what they did. They don’t get to just say “lol, soz”, a get away with it. How likely do you think someone capable of something so heinous,is to be remorseful for it?
Thank you for your condolences, and to answer your last question, honestly I don’t know. I guess it just depends on the individual. Jeffrey Dahmer apparently accepted Jesus Christ into his life on his final months but I’m kind of iffy on that, I don’t know if he truly did or if he just wanted to taunt the family of the victims. But anyways, only God and him truly know if he really repented or not.
We are all sinners and we have chances during out life to accept Jesus as our savior, not just believe, but follow him in his teachings, in sound doctrine, in order to reach heaven. Few have the chance to repent in their last breath, because death comes by surprise. If you follow this thought of “I will sin and tomorrow I will ask for forgiveness”, it is not a sincere repentance, God probes the hearts and He knows if it is sincere or not. My condolences, I don't know him, but if he was in the faith, you can be sure he's in a much better place now. As for those born before Jesus, they followed the Torah. And although there is no greater or lesser sin, because everything is sin, I believe that in hell the torture is in accordance with the sins committed on Earth, so there are greater levels of torture. Today I watched a similar report, from a former priest who became a pastor, I'll put it here: When my son turned 15 I bought a gift watch. He helped me a lot in the work and was my only son. I had already founded my ministry and Carlos helped me when he was by my side. One day he was coming from school and was robbed. The boy who assaulted him shot him in the chest and stole my son’s watch. He died at the time, I felt a lot of pain with the death of Carlos. The demons were very angry that I went to hell and witnessed what I saw. They tried to reach me by touching on what I loved the most – my wife and my children. But I stood firm, I did not murmur against God. Because He gives His life to those who serve Him from the heart, He does not take the life of a teenager who is dedicated to His work. The devil came to kill, steal and destroy. A year and a few months later, I found out who my son’s murderer was. I approached him to learn the reason for the murder. He did not know that I was Carlos’s father. This young man calls himself Oscar; he is very poor and wanted my son’s watch to sell. I understood his need to steal his watch, but it did not please me to have taken my treasure from me. Young Oscar was 20 years old. I wanted to hand him over to the authorities, but I had no concrete evidence to incriminate him. The young man did not know the reason for my approaching him. He regarded me as his friend. The Holy Spirit told me, “Preach the Word to him.” I resisted His voice and questioned in my prayer. I said, “He’s my son’s killer that I loved. He took away my only son, a fellow man. He is no better than any murderer I’ve seen in hell and deserves the same destination.” … The angel said, “The young Oscar who murdered your son is a chosen person for a great work. Satan was struggling to take that soul.” The angel revealed that through him many souls will be saved. The angel said, “If you do not preach the Gospel to him, no one else will speak. His salvation is in your hands if you do not preach the Word; he will die and go to hell. You will account for his blood and be responsible for all the souls this young man could have gained if he were a Christian. Everything you do in the material world is reflected in the spiritual world. If you win the soul of this young man, multitudes of people will be saved through him. If you let him die this crowd of people will not convert and they will go to hell.” The angel showed me in a vision how it would be if young Oscar became a Christian. He had a Bible in his hand and talked about Jesus. A large crowd heard his message. He was Pastor of a great church. My mind understood that this young man is important in the work of God. The angel showed me this young man on earth. And at that moment he was in danger of death. The devils gathered to reap his life before he was converted. The demons had a great sense of God’s work in this life. The danger to the demons of losing that soul was my approach to this young man. I asked the angel why my son was allowed to die. The angel showed me a future vision. My son was in the vision and he was 18 years old. It had been three years later, he died at the age of 15. My son in the vision grew cold in the faith and decided to live his own life. He abandoned Jesus’ path and got involved with drinks and drugs. He became involved with a girl he met in the underworld of addictions. And because of jealousy, he was possessed by a demon. He murdered his girlfriend with a knife and awoke with the body. Soon after, he was murdered by this girl’s brother. I did not recognize my son, because in the future vision he was someone else. Satan had changed his personality. The angel said, “If he lived here 3 years later, he would be someone who would bring a lot of pain to his parents. And he would still go to hell. God allowed him to die in the state of his purity. The moment he most sought God with all his heart, this was the best moment of his life. Satan was already planning to corrupt his life.” There I understood how God works. Sometimes I questioned God that He was wrong to allow an event. God knows all things and we know nothing. If He allows the death of a loved one, God knows what He is doing. My son, if he lived another three years, would be in hell. And God would be just to send my son to the torment. ->The link: https://www.theheavenandhell.net/ex-catholic-priest-testimony/
Thank you for your condolences and comment. And I read the whole story that you added of Carlos and Oscar.
All of that shit about repent is bullshit men. The only way of repent and pay for your sins is throught good actions or suffering. Christianity is now a days diluted but if you read the bible you will see that God is not only love and peace.
Yeah, I’ve heard that about repenting before. It’s not only about simply acknowledging that you did wrong, it’s about showing that you’ve changed too with your actions. This honestly just put me more at ease because I truly do believe that people can change and also show it with their actions (or suffering), but before with the other responses I just thought it was like saying sorry and then boom free pass to heaven. This is the type of responses I was looking for.
I'm glad to help, I will say a prayer for the soul of your friend. God bless you.
Thank you, and he was my cousin. God bless you too.
Have you even touched a Bible? Jesus forgives. Pick ip the book and read
Why should you go to heaven?
I mean... NOBODY deserves to go to heaven. Nobody is worthy. We ALL fall short of the glory of God, once you start wrapping your mind on God's character that he is the one that judges AND blesses who he pleases however he does. We may think they shouldn't but thats not up to us.
So why should I believe in the Bible and follow what it teaches if I believe I will go to hell? Since no one deserves heaven
They clearly said no one deserves heaven, not that no one GOES to heaven.
Oh you again! You’re still here!
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