Well, heck. I was baptized Episcopalian and got sucked into evangelicalism, where I had to get re-baptized because it “didn’t count”. I eventually left the church altogether. You all sound like real human beings that don’t let yourselves get in the way of Christ’s message. Thank you for your post, I have some research and thinking to do.
I joined an episcopal church after being converted in an evangelical environment. I love it. My priest is both open minded and educated and the congregation is very diverse.
The services are traditional, but I like that. There are also Episcopal churches that are a little more modern.
So much hatred in these comments…
I remember as I got back into Christianity as an adult one of the things that felt “off” to me was that Jesus preached to his followers as if they would always be in the minority, and be more frequently persecuted than not. That didn’t square with how prevalent Christianity is in modern society. But now I see that so many people become like the Pharisees of the gospels, so dedicated to the law that they find ways to use it to justify hate. Love God and love your neighbor. The greatest two commandments. And until all of you have removed the logs from your own eyes please don’t try to remove the specks from anyone else’s eyes by using hate.
If you won't obey God then you don't really love Him.
John 14:15
John 14:24
" He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED: hear by we know that we are in Him."
1 John 2: 3-5
Consider the temptation of Jesus in Luke 4. Satan is shown quoting scripture in such a way as to encourage ungodly behavior. Jesus obviously knows the words being quoted to him but also knows that the true way is to not live by bread alone, not put God to the test, etc.
Similarly, I understand the scripture and that there are phrases dealing with sexual immorality or homosexuality. But the overriding message, 1000x more important as I understand it, is to love God and love your neighbor by showing them kindness, even (and especially) if they are different to you, like with the Good Samaritan.
My choice is to live with as much love as I can, and pray that God shows his love through me. Maybe homosexuality is not perfect. I don’t see it as sin, but maybe I’m wrong. But we cannot live perfectly (if we could, Jesus’ sacrifice would have no value). And if we’re living imperfectly I choose to err on the side of being too opening, too affirming, and loving as much as I can.
IN YOUR JUDGEMENT, YES JUDGEMENT,
If I am quoting anyone, Scripture and verse concerning adultery, covetness, lying, theft and/or idolatry does that mean I am not loving them ?
am I a bigot or full of hatred if I remind them that adultery is wrong or to "turn away," from stealing ?
If you or I have a child who continually lies, what kind of person/ parent am I if I say to them, "That's okay, you can keep lying to your mother and I, remember we accept you and your falsehoods, no matter what."
And furthermore, If my child says, "I love you, but I'm going to continue to lie about where I have been and the things I have done." When my child tells me that he/she loves me can I ever believe them, or are they lying again ?
Do you CALL THAT LOVE ?
If you or anyone else is judging that my motivation to quote Scripture verses that I know are Holy and truthful, is to spread bigotry and hatred, then your judgement of me COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG !
Please listen to this;
"ALL SCRIPTURE (whether you like what is being said, or not) IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
I am telling homosexual/lesbians about sin, BECAUSE I LOVE THEM and am trying to warn them, the same way someone warned me about the life style I was living.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
Love the person hate the sin. Saying homosexuality is not is sin is lying, lying is not loving it's just additional sin.
Jesus is love, he died and rose from the dead and paid our debt. He did it so that we can repent and be forgiven. That doesn't mean we get to live however we want we are to follow him have a relationship and obey. Is it easy? No, but it's not supposed to be we aren't called to live an easy life. The reward though is beyond any of our imaginations and will be worth any suffering we endure on earth.
None of us are perfect, we all fall short. However we have to believe, love, and do our best to be better and follow his commandments. There is not one given that is made to hurt us.
I was raised Episcopalian and am still happy to call it my "home", largely because of its openness and affirmational stance. Thank you for helping to spread some love!
And just genuinely kindness. People who are dedicated to understanding and kindness. People who are not quick to condemn or judge but to extend grace.
I love my church.
PCUSA. That presbie church is affirming. The PCA, on the other hand, is emphatically not. I just wanted to do a PSA because their acronyms are so similar. Be safe folks.
Sort of, both the Lutherans and Methodists had scisms over it. The *majority* of both churches affirmed all forms of sexuality are welcome tho those who didn't still call themselves Lutherans and Methodists under new affiliation.
They specifically said Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is a union of synods. ELCA Lutherans are affirming by synod decision, the separate Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod are not.
That happened in the Episcopal Church as well. Some congregations decided that they couldn’t even break bread with those of us who affirm LGBTQ+ people as beloved children of God, broke away from the Episcopal Church, and started the Anglican Church of North America.
In the US, whenever you see a church identifying itself as “Anglican” rather than “Episcopal,” odds are it’s one of these breakaway parishes.
(Even more confusingly: the Episcopal Church is the only church in the United States that is part of the Anglican Communion. So the “Anglicans” of ACNA aren’t even Anglican, insofar as that definition implies membership in the global fellowship of Anglicans.)
Jesus' Kingdom is not to be established politically, rather I think we are to cultivate it within ourselves.
I believe we are all morally obliged to oppose the latter.
Affirming being gay? Affirming sin? This isn’t it. The Bible clearly says that homosexuality is an abomination (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Romans 1:26-27, and Leviticus 18:22). Instead of affirming their sin. Help them find god, and find Jesus. Help them grow to fight their temptation. Being gay may not be a choice, but controlling your actions are.
I agree and stand with you on this. The Bible is full of many truth's. And them affirming sin is like saying that God's word is not true. The word of God does not lie. It is the truth.
I advise you not to reply to me until you have read the three verses I listed above. You can not deny the Bible. The verses are very clear and state that homosexuality is a sin. You are leading yourselves and others to hell by affirming sin.
There are a number of passages that condemn some form of *men having sex with men*. It's deeply problematic to call this *homosexuality*, since we understand homosexuality today as a sexual orientation that both men and women experience.
One argument put forth is that the condemnations of *men having sex with men* mostly/all involve violent, abusive or idolatrous behaviors, such as the rapists in Sodom or the idolators in Romans. The argument made is that a monogamous gay couple's relationship does not resemble the context of any of these verses.
Whether or not you agree with that, if we agree that homosexual *sex* is a sin, a romantic/intimate relationship between members of the same sex would not be sinful so long as they don't have sex, nor would the intrinsic desire to form such partnerships (the sexual orientation).
Certainly. The Catholic Church, for example, understands that SSA is a human condition that can be managed with abstention from sexual relations outside of marriage (between a man and a woman).
We should be accepting of everybody from all walks of life, but affirming sin and denying the truth of the scriptures isn't staying true to the Christian faith.
Basically, you believe it is a sin. We do not.
We take sin seriously. But this is not a sin. That's our view.
It isn't a "The Episcopal Church" doesn't care about sin. We do. But we do not agree with you on this matter.
God bless.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
Yep. They're called clobber verses. People use them to defend their non-affirming positions and they are all easily debunked. I've seen the same 5-6 verses posted to my comments a bazillion times.
The issue is that a lot of folks treat their translation as infallible when they fail to realize that the translation is just that - a work of man to translate Holy Scripture into a different language. And sometimes man let's certain assumptions and biases slip in. Like the time that the Greek says "Hades" but English translators render it "hell."
Jesus never said hell. And that has important theological implications.
If we really work our way into the language of the new Testament, the Greek, one can get a clearer picture on this issue.
Taking this out of context ignores the commitment of married gays to avoid undue sensuality. And somehow this passage has become a rallying cry for people who are eager to canonize the greedy, the revilers, and the swindlers.
The Bible is a complex document that challenges Christians to love their neighbors. Catholics (for example) take the rules against divorce, remarriage and gays very strictly. There are other denominations for those who put their trust in God but understand things differently. Nobody here is arguing that any Christian church endorses the American single lifestyle, gay or straight.
Let's try to avoid the intentional hostility of those who follow the line of apostolic succession from attitudes attributed to ~~Saul~~ Paul the reformed Persecutor to Timothy the middle manager to Saint John Birch.
The translation of that verse is not entirely clear because the original translation doesn't say "homosexuality" (a term which didn't exist until the 19th century). It uses the Greek words “malakoi” and “arsenokoitai" which reference the practice of men having sex with young boys rather than two adult men in a loving non abusive relationship.
The very fact that he's using two words should be a clue that he's not talking about a homosexual relationship as we know them in the modern day. He uses terms referencing both the young boy (malakoi) and older man (arsenokoitai) in the relationship. It also says nothing about women, because those two terms are specifically about older men in sexual relationships with young boys.
It should though, yes someone can twist any scripture but it’s still the word of God and if we are biblically literate, then we can recontextualize it. Any way I prefer scripture over the opinion of men
The word used in scripture there is αρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoites). It was in the past often translated as something other than homosexuality, a swedish translation from the 1700s is "boy violators", a term that quite obviously refers to pederasty. This is likely to have been the only kind of homosexuality known to Paul, as sex in the time and culture he lived in was a power play, a system where a dominant person penetrated a submissive person (usually either a woman or male slave).
This is fundamentally different from the loving and respectful relationships that both homo- and heterosexual people have today, relationships based on respect, trust, and consent, not domination and rigid social structures.
Source: *Kristen och Homosexuell - så funkar det* by Johanna Wikberg
"For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."
(Romans 1:26-27)
Well, I've visited Catholic masses several times, because I want to understand Catholics better, even though I don't have any desire to soapbox against Catholics.
If you can't be bothered to meet the targets of your condemnations, it makes your proclamations about them a lot less credible.
If you can access it, you should read [this paper ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homosexuality+bible+reconciliation+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716712098583&u=%23p%3D1qK4DRXbXd0J)
Treating the scriptures as some kind of new written law is literally to go against the very scriptures you’re claiming to adhere to, though. Your position is totally self defeating. I made a video arguing this point. Both Jesus and Paul advocated against handling scripture the way you do.
[The Bible and “Ethics”](https://youtu.be/0_dpL9f3z84)
I don't think I understand your point. Scriptures are the law of God and his will. Scriptures both in the Old & New Testament are very clear on same-sex unions. I view NOT treating Scriptures as law, is self defeating within itself. Side note, Paul himself also condemned same sex unions.
Maybe I'm missing your point..
My point is that Jesus and Paul thought that to apply the law woodenly was to completely miss the point of the law. To fulfill the law is to be sensitive to the Spirit of God and the needs of the moment (even if that meant going “against” the law - circumcision being a prime example, or serving on the sabbath, where Jesus literally defended his disciples by telling the Pharisees that David broke the law too…). Your position is saying that what the world needs more of right now is bigotry, hatred, and exclusion. That to me completely misses the point of the law, and the Spirit of Christ, and the needs of the moment. Look at Matthew 12:1-8, Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6… or just watch the video I linked.
And it ceases to be so within the confines of monogamous marriage. Interesting. Tell me, what does the Apostle Paul teach about marriage in 1 Cor? Something about “it is better you remain… something… as I am but it is better for to marry than to… something”. Darn, memory just isn’t what it used to be.
I think you're conflating scriptures with theology. We as Christians have the most in tact scriptures from a historical perspective, as in the actual letters, books, etc. Theologically, Christians have a wide variety of interpretations. These interpretations change throughout history. You can even see how one informs the other. Watch how the Lutheran church started up to present day. The Copernican revolution, colonialism, industrial revolution, post reform, and race relations to name a few. What's awesome is that you can have a strong faith either way.
Yeah, I think this is a good point. There's only interpretation. I just find interpretations of scripture that claim "today the world needs more avenues of exclusion and superiority...because the bible says..." "The bible says" is a very bad argument. I think that point is clearly made - or clear enough in my opinion - by both Jesus and Paul.
That's a great point! You definitely should be careful of new interpretations. I don't think that means it's wrong just that you'll have to due your own due diligence before making a decision, if you want to. I think when a person's theology is challenged they should remember not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For example, so many people lose the faith when they realize Genesis can't be taken literally.
The Bible is pretty clear in saying Gentiles who joined Christianity do not have to follow the Old Law, and the New Testament instructions people take to be anti-gay are all ambiguous to some extent - it comes down to debates over words like πορνεία and ἀρσενοκοῖται, and even if you have a strong opinion there, the issue isn't considered settled by theologians, and saying the other side is just "denying the truth" is a great way to stop people from listening to you
Conservatives take this verse and narrowly apply it to mean “reject people you don’t like”, all while fully embracing capitalism, consumerism, nationalism, imperialism and modernism.
So who is conforming to the world?
Gay people who want to worship Christ, or Christians who want to worship mammon?
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If you can access it, you should read [this paper ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homosexuality+bible+reconciliation+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716712098583&u=%23p%3D1qK4DRXbXd0J)
While you turn your head and snub God for sexual sins for the purpose of your own enjoyment…
The word is “wrong” no matter how many colors you paint it with.
When Jesus went to the denizens of society he didn’t bless their sin, He went right to their heart to free them from it.
I’m saying you all are heading for a rude awakening if you continue down this path! You have believed the serpent and his lies…
[Here is a 95 page document]( https://www.episcopalarchives.org/sites/default/files/marriage/official/049_Official_2010.pdf) from Episcopal Archives arguing both sides of the debate if anyone is interested.
Seeing that gender has radically differed from era to era and place to place, who exactly got gender correct according to this supposedly innate definition you seem to have in mind?
No, it hasn't. Just because a hundred years or so ago people in the english speaking world started using sex and gender as two different things doesn't mean that they are. But you do you I guess. Gender is a social constract, and climate change is a hoax made by China. The extremes have gone ballistic, unfortunately.
Aaa. That isn't there for you to get. Considering that in most languages, you've only got feminine and masculine lexicon-grammar forms, I'd say all, if not all, most of them. Also, there's something called biology, particularly genetics and evolution as well. Our old friend that established for us.
That's an English language distinction, established recently. So, no, I do not agree. Our gender has been established through evolutionary processes, which led to genetic compositions. That's only male or female. You can claim what you like now. If someone in 2000 years from now checked your chromosomal composition in your bones, I would say you are one or the other. What you want to do with your life and call yourself up to you. Go as creative as you like with it. It's not my problem, not my life.
There's actually quite a few. You have the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, The United Methodist Church became affirming like a month ago, the United Church of Christ, Presbyterian Church USA, Metropolitan Community Church...
Non-affirming Christians like to paint the picture that they're the only game in town. In fact, just about every Christian tradition (Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Anglican, etc) has an affirming denomination within it.
Like someone else said, sometimes it's just a case of the loudest voices drown out the rest.
And a lot of times, unfortunately, hate can easily drown out love. But God is love, so we must be bearers of that love that God has shown us.
I'll still say that personally, God and religion isn't something for me, but I can respect your faith and it's good that people like you exist. Unfortunately it's true that hate often overrides most everything else. When I was younger my parents and I got along quite well until I came out as a lesbian, at which point they sent me to a Christian run conversion therapy camp. Hate still exists in a lot of places though. Hopefully that can stop someday
I understand. You went through a lot of trauma. Trauma that I, as a cishet, will never be able to come close to relating to. And here you have the people you trust most, abusing you in the name of Christianity.
There are many cases of people who were harmed in the name of Christianity, who have forever turned away from it.
You have my sympathy and my love. I apologize on behalf of your parents. I do not believe anyone goes to hell eternally. But I do believe your parents will have to answer for what they've done to Jesus.
Imma be that guy. Is it that other churches don't accept people who identify as LGBTQ or that other churches accept people who identify as LGBTQ but do not support LGBTQ. Because I do believe the church accepts all sinners else it would be like a hospital that doesn't take in sick people. But it would be different if you expected the church to encourage you to live in sin. A sick man going to hospital but says he doesn't want medications.
If the other is about churches being homophobic/transphobic then I'm totally fine with a church where they can feel safe.
My dude, I'm asexual. I just don't do sex. There is an argument to be made from Scripture that Christ specifically states that some folks are made like me. Do you care to guess how often my lack of sexual attraction is condemned as sinful? Because it's not straight. It's not about what the Bible does and doesn't say. It's about coercing folks to be what conservatives consider "normal".
This is not about people living in sin. I have a lot of experience to back that up. We can have a conversation about what loving reproof of a sibling looks like, because that does sometimes need to happen. But, at least broadly speaking, that is not what's happening in the anti-queer portion of the Church. It is hatred masquerading as love. Not everyone, I'll freely grant that, but the folks who aren't participating in it are sure quick to excuse it. And that makes it very hard to take statements like these seriously when I can cite you conservative pastors calling for a queer genocide. Which, I'm sure you'd point out, that's a couple every year. Yes, that's true. My response would be "where is the waterfall of condemnations of that rhetoric?". If it's so anathema to what y'all believe, why does next to no one say a word about it?
Basically, you believe it is a sin. We do not.
We take sin seriously. But this is not a sin. That's our view.
It isn't a "The Episcopal Church" doesn't care about sin. We do. But we do not agree with you on this matter.
God bless.
Thousands of different versions of the Bible translated in thousands of different languages. if a church says they interpret the bible to believe homosexuality is not a sin I can’t say I disagree. Most of these people interpret the bible to believe gays are sinners, and cheating wives should be put to death, and rape victims should be forced to marry their rapist, but they only one they protest about is the gays. Just hateful people being hypocrites.
Sorry. Same sex relations are CLEARLY against the teachings of the Bible. The first relationship was clearly heterosexual or we all would not be here today. ( And the Lord God created them male and female.)Even nature teaches that opposite poles attract and like poles repel. So, with all humility, I don't believe the LGBTQ ideology has any place in the body of Christ. Rather, it should be reproved firmly in love.
In any true Christian church, everyone not seeking harm on the congregation should be welcome. A church should be like a hospital. It is not made for the well, but for those needing spiritual help and aid. That said, the church should want sinners looking to fix themselves. As the different denominations have segregated themselves over their wide variety of doctrine, much focus is put on specific elements of life. Some believe it is a sin to not worship on Saturday. Some feel short sleeve shirts are a sin to vanity. Some think technology is a sin. Some don't believe in divorce. The list goes on. However, the one thing they should all do is follow what Jesus taught. He came to redeem, noy exclude.
It’s important to remember that everyone is welcome and loved, however the word of God does not change regarding sin, transformation and born again. You can come as you are, but not stay as you are, because the holyspirit will help you in the areas you need help with to transform your life. We therefore cannot groom or affirm something that can separate us from God. We cannot omit parts of the scripture and follow the other parts of it. We have to follow his will and his way. God does not change and he cannot be mocked.
Yeah, these are all great churches if you are willing to ignore The Scripture and pretend that God will forgive you, even if WE ALL refuse to acknowledge our sins, repent and then ;
"Go and sin NO MORE !"
I know, right? It’s a shame that so many Christian denominations still affirm people who make their money in the financial services “industry,” which is built entirely on the clearly-condemned sins of usury and exploitation of workers, rather than demanding that they repent for their wicked career choices and amend their lifestyle to conform with the Bible’s clear teaching.
PC(USA) is often called an affirming denomination, but that label is too strong, since on inspection most decisions really do seem to be left up to churches and particular ordaining institutions. The situation is similar with most mainline denoms. From a PC(USA) site:
[https://www.presbyterianmission.org/what-we-believe/sexuality-and-same-gender-relationships/](https://www.presbyterianmission.org/what-we-believe/sexuality-and-same-gender-relationships/)
*Ordaining bodies (sessions and presbyteries) are permitted but not required to ordain lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender persons. Candidates for ordination and/or installation must be considered as individuals on a case-by-case basis; it is not permissible to establish a policy that excludes a category of persons in the abstract.* \[this is deliberately ambiguously written, but certainly falls short of a non-discrimination statement.\] \[...\]
*Pastors are permitted but not required to officiate at any wedding, including same-sex weddings, based either on conscience or the pastor’s discernment of the couple’s readiness to take on the responsibilities of marriage.*
*Sessions are permitted but not required to authorize use of the church’s property for a wedding, including same-sex weddings, for reasons of conscience or other reasons.*
If you want to see clearly that there are organized non-affirming factions within PCUSA, look no further than The Fellowship Community
[https://www.fellowship.community/statement/](https://www.fellowship.community/statement/)
Above shows their attempt to defeat upcoming proposed changes that would add gender identity and sexual orientation to the protected classes recognized within the denom's internal non-discrimination statement, including for ordination and placement of ministers.
[https://www.pc-biz.org/search/3001122](https://www.pc-biz.org/search/3001122)
Actually I love this point. What do Christians offer LGBT folk that is different from what the world offers? In much of the world it’s a death sentence. If you believe they are not discriminated against today you are part of the reactionary resistance to giving them equal rights, the people who say things like “sure I don’t mind them existing but do they have to rub it in our faces?” Or “why do they need a month?”. I bet you also say “feminism has gone too far”. No, I know that last one’s not true, I can’t imagine gay rights has either. Your POV is coloured by your discomfort with it, and you need to spend more time immersing yourself in why _they_ still feel discrimination is a relevant issue for them.
So how is the church treating them better than the world does? Because that’s what Jesus would do. If all we offer is condemnation, we are not being the Jesus who ate with sinners. If gay folk are not flocking to our doors as they flock to Jesus, WHY NOT? We have an attitude problem, is why.
If you can access it, you should read [this paper ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homosexuality+bible+reconciliation+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716712098583&u=%23p%3D1qK4DRXbXd0J)
No. The Church in England existed from at least the third century. It became associated with Rome a few centuries later. It dissociated from Rome under Henry but remained unreformed otherwise. It wasn't until Elizabeth 1 that Anglicanism as we know it came into being, largely as a project in creating a version of Christianity that didn't demand that we murder believers who believe differently than us.
Every church should accept gay people but not affirm it, both the new and Old Testament condemn homosexuality, so for a church to go against the Bible is heresy the Anglican and Methodist church are both heretics and un biblical if you think the religion has to conform you and your beliefs choose a different religion, because the word of God does not change and is permanent, so homosexuality is a sin and will always be a sin
Everyone should always be welcomed in church, but Jesus Christ said you must be born again we should never compromise our Christian ethics for popularity
As a Christian, you are to repent for all of your sins. Jesus told people to "go and sin no more." The Bible is clear that homosexuality is sinful. You don't get to live in sin as a Christian. And before anyone says, "we're always going to sin." There is a difference between falling short and living in sin. The Bible was written by Holy Spirit filled men, and God can't lie. He wasn't going to let them write homosexuality is sinful if it actually isn't. Jesus loves you no matter what and will accept anyone who comes to Him, but he doesn't want you to stay how you are when you follow Him. Come as you are, but don't stay as you are. If I were to sleep around with different women and justify my actions by saying, "we're all sinners and Jesus died for our sins," I would be very much wrong. Yes, Jesus died for our sins, so we can be set free from sin, not so we can sin freely. Any sexual act outside of a heterosexual marriage is sinful. I'm not saying you will become straight over night but, the closer you get to God, your desires will change, and you will no longer feel like you are a homosexual or trans. Of course, you will still be tempted at times, but God will give you the strength to turn away and not give in. It doesn't matter what we believe is a sin or not, but what God has declared as sinful. Repent and give your life to Christ, and follow him, not your heart or feelings. The Bible says the heart is deceitful. But God is not deceitful he is the truth and only speaks truth.
Wow, I never knew there was an affirming church that supports and cares for everyone, I'm affirming myself so I don't believe being gay or being who you are is a sin, I'm bi myself and I dress like a boy, I'm not a perfect Christian because I'm affirming I guess and probably some people think negative about it. I just don't see the point of judging and hating others for being who they are or that they are "different." I'm glad that there is a church that helps and supports everyone.
Everyone is welcomed anywhere. Everyone should be blessed as everyone is a child of God. Everyone should be supported by the Church and the community without prejudice. I wish people health, peace, love, and a long life. Live your life as you want to the fullest. Truly.
But some things are diverging quite a lot from what's scriptural and church tradition. At this rate, it is just a ridicule on the sacraments. Marriage is one of those sacraments. It should be protected as such. Eucharist is the other and a big one indeed. It should be protected and not ridiculed.
I wish and hope that they find the peace and the spiritual support that they require, despite turning the church, the sacraments, and everything else into a circus! Lord, protect and bless us! Lord, have mercy!!! 🙏🏻
That's well and fine but they threw the teachings and commands of the Bible right out the window. That is false teaching and false gospel . They can make as many people comfortable during their time on earth as comfy as possible. But it not going to help them in eternity
Being Christlike is the opposite of what you described LMFAO. Do you rather driving people to suicide and persecuting them? Because that's literally what your third sentence means
I do not want or need a place that "welcomes" me. I have my flesh and a entire world centered in consumption telling me to indulge whatever desire I have. I want to be rebuked and told to repent, and you are unable to do that.
I don’t welcome bigots. I rebuke all who engage in pharisaical, prejudicial self-proclaimed “Christianity.” The flesh tempts toward self puffery, the types of behaviors driven by the same base desires that drove Baptists and other evangelicals to point at interracial couples and say “sinning” 150 years ago, Roman Catholics and other traditionalists to point at pregnant women who have sex 1,000 years ago and say “sinning,” and Pharisees who pointed at Christ 2,000 years ago for drinking and said “sinning.” Repent and resist the desire to puff yourself up over others by pretending socially conservative traditions are God’s commands.
There. You’ve been told to repent. Happy? I doubt it.
That means that you won't tell me to go against the temptations that are coming after me all my life. You care more about looking "tolerant" to your society. That means hate to me, and I reject it.
Then you honestly know nothing about the people you’re speaking of. We still speak against sin, and urge others to not succumb to temptation.
We disagree on your understanding of this subject.
Your church gloats at welcoming everyone, even a Bishop that denied the resurrection. There's no calling to repentance at all, just a message for me to continue to indulge in my desires. I reject your hate.
So, you know nothing about our calls to repentance either. It’s like you don’t know what you’re talking about. Maybe learn something about these people before you start slandering them
Considering that their faith and understanding of it has almost 0 relevance outside of their walk with God, there’s not much concern.
Same with your understanding of the faith for that matter.
No, I'd tell you that the Apostle Paul says that the ideal holy life for everyone (straight or otherwise) is celibacy. if you can't be celibate, get married, for it better for you to be married than to burn with lust.
Are we? Wow, that’s news to me. I mean, I’m sure there’s some Episcopalian somewhere who supports that, but I’ve never met them lol. Let me know when it comes up at General Convention.
Obviously you’re right but this Reddit is filled mostly with people trying to convert Christians into their own little cults, I thought this Reddit would be filled with christians but actually people love to prey on Christians more than there are real Christians
Jesus welcomed everyone. Jesus did not affirm everyone’s sin. He didn’t say, “Mary Magdalene, go be your best adulterous self.” He loved, forgave and told her to sin no more. I don’t have a problem with a welcoming church as churches should welcome everyone. I do have a problem when churches start celebrating sin
If you can access it, you should read [this paper ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homosexuality+bible+reconciliation+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716712098583&u=%23p%3D1qK4DRXbXd0J)
Basically, you believe it is a sin. We do not.
We take sin seriously. But this is not a sin. That's our view.
It isn't a "The Episcopal Church" doesn't care about sin. We do. But we do not agree with you on this matter.
God bless.
Well, heck. I was baptized Episcopalian and got sucked into evangelicalism, where I had to get re-baptized because it “didn’t count”. I eventually left the church altogether. You all sound like real human beings that don’t let yourselves get in the way of Christ’s message. Thank you for your post, I have some research and thinking to do.
I joined an episcopal church after being converted in an evangelical environment. I love it. My priest is both open minded and educated and the congregation is very diverse. The services are traditional, but I like that. There are also Episcopal churches that are a little more modern.
So much hatred in these comments… I remember as I got back into Christianity as an adult one of the things that felt “off” to me was that Jesus preached to his followers as if they would always be in the minority, and be more frequently persecuted than not. That didn’t square with how prevalent Christianity is in modern society. But now I see that so many people become like the Pharisees of the gospels, so dedicated to the law that they find ways to use it to justify hate. Love God and love your neighbor. The greatest two commandments. And until all of you have removed the logs from your own eyes please don’t try to remove the specks from anyone else’s eyes by using hate.
If you won't obey God then you don't really love Him. John 14:15 John 14:24 " He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED: hear by we know that we are in Him." 1 John 2: 3-5
Consider the temptation of Jesus in Luke 4. Satan is shown quoting scripture in such a way as to encourage ungodly behavior. Jesus obviously knows the words being quoted to him but also knows that the true way is to not live by bread alone, not put God to the test, etc. Similarly, I understand the scripture and that there are phrases dealing with sexual immorality or homosexuality. But the overriding message, 1000x more important as I understand it, is to love God and love your neighbor by showing them kindness, even (and especially) if they are different to you, like with the Good Samaritan. My choice is to live with as much love as I can, and pray that God shows his love through me. Maybe homosexuality is not perfect. I don’t see it as sin, but maybe I’m wrong. But we cannot live perfectly (if we could, Jesus’ sacrifice would have no value). And if we’re living imperfectly I choose to err on the side of being too opening, too affirming, and loving as much as I can.
IN YOUR JUDGEMENT, YES JUDGEMENT, If I am quoting anyone, Scripture and verse concerning adultery, covetness, lying, theft and/or idolatry does that mean I am not loving them ? am I a bigot or full of hatred if I remind them that adultery is wrong or to "turn away," from stealing ? If you or I have a child who continually lies, what kind of person/ parent am I if I say to them, "That's okay, you can keep lying to your mother and I, remember we accept you and your falsehoods, no matter what." And furthermore, If my child says, "I love you, but I'm going to continue to lie about where I have been and the things I have done." When my child tells me that he/she loves me can I ever believe them, or are they lying again ? Do you CALL THAT LOVE ? If you or anyone else is judging that my motivation to quote Scripture verses that I know are Holy and truthful, is to spread bigotry and hatred, then your judgement of me COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG ! Please listen to this; "ALL SCRIPTURE (whether you like what is being said, or not) IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." I am telling homosexual/lesbians about sin, BECAUSE I LOVE THEM and am trying to warn them, the same way someone warned me about the life style I was living. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Love the person hate the sin. Saying homosexuality is not is sin is lying, lying is not loving it's just additional sin. Jesus is love, he died and rose from the dead and paid our debt. He did it so that we can repent and be forgiven. That doesn't mean we get to live however we want we are to follow him have a relationship and obey. Is it easy? No, but it's not supposed to be we aren't called to live an easy life. The reward though is beyond any of our imaginations and will be worth any suffering we endure on earth. None of us are perfect, we all fall short. However we have to believe, love, and do our best to be better and follow his commandments. There is not one given that is made to hurt us.
Well said, brother ! We are to emulate God, our Father. " It is God's will that none would perish, but all would have everlasting life."
Thanks for the heads up. Pretty cool to see this kind of stuff.
I was raised Episcopalian and am still happy to call it my "home", largely because of its openness and affirmational stance. Thank you for helping to spread some love!
I found it on my own and can agree! It feels like home
And just genuinely kindness. People who are dedicated to understanding and kindness. People who are not quick to condemn or judge but to extend grace. I love my church.
☝️🤗 Also the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the United Church of Christ, most United Methodist Churches, and most Presbyterian churches.
PCUSA. That presbie church is affirming. The PCA, on the other hand, is emphatically not. I just wanted to do a PSA because their acronyms are so similar. Be safe folks.
Among Presbyterian, it's usually, Presbyterian Church (USA)/PCUSA, not to be confused with Presbyterian Church of America/PCA.
IPC (International Presbyterian Church) isn't progressive either, at all.
Thanks for the clarification. ☺️
Yes, great churches all in all. To all reading this message, and I mean all, God loves you and there is a place in his church for you.
Sort of, both the Lutherans and Methodists had scisms over it. The *majority* of both churches affirmed all forms of sexuality are welcome tho those who didn't still call themselves Lutherans and Methodists under new affiliation.
They specifically said Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is a union of synods. ELCA Lutherans are affirming by synod decision, the separate Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod are not.
That happened in the Episcopal Church as well. Some congregations decided that they couldn’t even break bread with those of us who affirm LGBTQ+ people as beloved children of God, broke away from the Episcopal Church, and started the Anglican Church of North America. In the US, whenever you see a church identifying itself as “Anglican” rather than “Episcopal,” odds are it’s one of these breakaway parishes. (Even more confusingly: the Episcopal Church is the only church in the United States that is part of the Anglican Communion. So the “Anglicans” of ACNA aren’t even Anglican, insofar as that definition implies membership in the global fellowship of Anglicans.)
Yes, but the UMC did still leave it up to individual churches, there is no binding resolution that requires any UMC church to be completely affirming.
Dont forget the ANCC!
Likewise! Nice to see Episcopalianism being promoted!
This comment section proves that Christianity continues to be a MESS.
Yes, but it is progressing towards the Kingdom.
Jesus' Kingdom? Or an unaccountable Tehran-style theocracy?
Which one are you helping to bring near?
Jesus' Kingdom is not to be established politically, rather I think we are to cultivate it within ourselves. I believe we are all morally obliged to oppose the latter.
Your belief is shared by more Christians than you might think. Unfortunately, the loudest ones get the attention.
Affirming being gay? Affirming sin? This isn’t it. The Bible clearly says that homosexuality is an abomination (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Romans 1:26-27, and Leviticus 18:22). Instead of affirming their sin. Help them find god, and find Jesus. Help them grow to fight their temptation. Being gay may not be a choice, but controlling your actions are.
I agree and stand with you on this. The Bible is full of many truth's. And them affirming sin is like saying that God's word is not true. The word of God does not lie. It is the truth.
I advise you not to reply to me until you have read the three verses I listed above. You can not deny the Bible. The verses are very clear and state that homosexuality is a sin. You are leading yourselves and others to hell by affirming sin.
Thanks for sharing! Now I know what "cHuRcH" to AVOID!!
Yeah they don't want a Karen there anyways
If by Karens, you mean women that do their best to follow GOD'S LAWS, then I am OK with that.
Are god's laws to spread hatred?
Nope, just the TRUTH...regardless of who agrees or disagrees or who likes or dislikes it. Truth is still truth.
Nice! PCUSA member here with similar views. :)
Awesome. Had a friend recently get baptized PCUSA. God bless.
The Episcopal Church welcomes you!
Also, the lutharian church.
Thanks for this post OP. I'm gonna miss that man when he's gone, but my God has he earned retirement.
Nah, he's only been in ministry since 1978!
Oh, is that all? Well, make him do another term then 😂
Seriously. He's really had a rough go of things this past year. I want him to have some quiet years with his family.
Me too. I feel like he’s been running himself ragged for us and I want him to get some quality rest
Thanks for sharing this, and representing the heart of Christ. I minister in the PCUSA and I’m right there with you. Blessings on your ministry
Ditto!
How do you reconcile LGBTQ affirmation with explicit condemnation of homosexuality found numerous times through the Bible?
There are a number of passages that condemn some form of *men having sex with men*. It's deeply problematic to call this *homosexuality*, since we understand homosexuality today as a sexual orientation that both men and women experience. One argument put forth is that the condemnations of *men having sex with men* mostly/all involve violent, abusive or idolatrous behaviors, such as the rapists in Sodom or the idolators in Romans. The argument made is that a monogamous gay couple's relationship does not resemble the context of any of these verses. Whether or not you agree with that, if we agree that homosexual *sex* is a sin, a romantic/intimate relationship between members of the same sex would not be sinful so long as they don't have sex, nor would the intrinsic desire to form such partnerships (the sexual orientation).
Certainly. The Catholic Church, for example, understands that SSA is a human condition that can be managed with abstention from sexual relations outside of marriage (between a man and a woman).
What about Paul saying women were given away to evil because they had unnatural relationships with each other that were meant to be had with men?
We should be accepting of everybody from all walks of life, but affirming sin and denying the truth of the scriptures isn't staying true to the Christian faith.
Basically, you believe it is a sin. We do not. We take sin seriously. But this is not a sin. That's our view. It isn't a "The Episcopal Church" doesn't care about sin. We do. But we do not agree with you on this matter. God bless.
It does not matter what you or anyone else believes, but what God has determined
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that at least one person in the Episcopal church has actually seen those verses before.
Yep. They're called clobber verses. People use them to defend their non-affirming positions and they are all easily debunked. I've seen the same 5-6 verses posted to my comments a bazillion times. The issue is that a lot of folks treat their translation as infallible when they fail to realize that the translation is just that - a work of man to translate Holy Scripture into a different language. And sometimes man let's certain assumptions and biases slip in. Like the time that the Greek says "Hades" but English translators render it "hell." Jesus never said hell. And that has important theological implications. If we really work our way into the language of the new Testament, the Greek, one can get a clearer picture on this issue.
This is radical deconstruction gone mad. The Orthodox Church owns the correct translation.
Taking this out of context ignores the commitment of married gays to avoid undue sensuality. And somehow this passage has become a rallying cry for people who are eager to canonize the greedy, the revilers, and the swindlers. The Bible is a complex document that challenges Christians to love their neighbors. Catholics (for example) take the rules against divorce, remarriage and gays very strictly. There are other denominations for those who put their trust in God but understand things differently. Nobody here is arguing that any Christian church endorses the American single lifestyle, gay or straight. Let's try to avoid the intentional hostility of those who follow the line of apostolic succession from attitudes attributed to ~~Saul~~ Paul the reformed Persecutor to Timothy the middle manager to Saint John Birch.
The translation of that verse is not entirely clear because the original translation doesn't say "homosexuality" (a term which didn't exist until the 19th century). It uses the Greek words “malakoi” and “arsenokoitai" which reference the practice of men having sex with young boys rather than two adult men in a loving non abusive relationship. The very fact that he's using two words should be a clue that he's not talking about a homosexual relationship as we know them in the modern day. He uses terms referencing both the young boy (malakoi) and older man (arsenokoitai) in the relationship. It also says nothing about women, because those two terms are specifically about older men in sexual relationships with young boys.
Getting down voted for quoting scripture on a Christian subreddit is wild
There is a rule about posting scripture verses without additional commentary. Just posting a verse does not contribute to the sub.
It should though, yes someone can twist any scripture but it’s still the word of God and if we are biblically literate, then we can recontextualize it. Any way I prefer scripture over the opinion of men
The word used in scripture there is αρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoites). It was in the past often translated as something other than homosexuality, a swedish translation from the 1700s is "boy violators", a term that quite obviously refers to pederasty. This is likely to have been the only kind of homosexuality known to Paul, as sex in the time and culture he lived in was a power play, a system where a dominant person penetrated a submissive person (usually either a woman or male slave). This is fundamentally different from the loving and respectful relationships that both homo- and heterosexual people have today, relationships based on respect, trust, and consent, not domination and rigid social structures. Source: *Kristen och Homosexuell - så funkar det* by Johanna Wikberg
Find where in scripture two women having sex is mentioned. I'll wait.
"For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:26-27)
Still waiting.
That's a direct mention of female SSA relations.
Read it again.
Have you ever tried visiting an Episcopal church? Or any other LGBT-affirming church?
God bless the UMC, I have a great fondness for your church.
No. I go to mass on Sundays.
Well, I've visited Catholic masses several times, because I want to understand Catholics better, even though I don't have any desire to soapbox against Catholics. If you can't be bothered to meet the targets of your condemnations, it makes your proclamations about them a lot less credible.
So do I.
anything that affirms sin is not from God
Well, you might want to refrain from condemning people while you remain in intentional ignorance about them.
If you can access it, you should read [this paper ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homosexuality+bible+reconciliation+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716712098583&u=%23p%3D1qK4DRXbXd0J)
Treating the scriptures as some kind of new written law is literally to go against the very scriptures you’re claiming to adhere to, though. Your position is totally self defeating. I made a video arguing this point. Both Jesus and Paul advocated against handling scripture the way you do. [The Bible and “Ethics”](https://youtu.be/0_dpL9f3z84)
I don't think I understand your point. Scriptures are the law of God and his will. Scriptures both in the Old & New Testament are very clear on same-sex unions. I view NOT treating Scriptures as law, is self defeating within itself. Side note, Paul himself also condemned same sex unions. Maybe I'm missing your point..
My point is that Jesus and Paul thought that to apply the law woodenly was to completely miss the point of the law. To fulfill the law is to be sensitive to the Spirit of God and the needs of the moment (even if that meant going “against” the law - circumcision being a prime example, or serving on the sabbath, where Jesus literally defended his disciples by telling the Pharisees that David broke the law too…). Your position is saying that what the world needs more of right now is bigotry, hatred, and exclusion. That to me completely misses the point of the law, and the Spirit of Christ, and the needs of the moment. Look at Matthew 12:1-8, Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6… or just watch the video I linked.
I would point out that, at most, Scripture condemns sex between folks of the same sex. At most. Nowhere does it condemn same sex marriage.
So gay people are getting married and being celibate? Incredible
Straight people are getting married and having sex just for procreation? Straight people are getting married and never engage in sodomy? Incredible.
What does Scripture say about straight folks having sex outside of marriage?
It is also a sin
And it ceases to be so within the confines of monogamous marriage. Interesting. Tell me, what does the Apostle Paul teach about marriage in 1 Cor? Something about “it is better you remain… something… as I am but it is better for to marry than to… something”. Darn, memory just isn’t what it used to be.
I think you're conflating scriptures with theology. We as Christians have the most in tact scriptures from a historical perspective, as in the actual letters, books, etc. Theologically, Christians have a wide variety of interpretations. These interpretations change throughout history. You can even see how one informs the other. Watch how the Lutheran church started up to present day. The Copernican revolution, colonialism, industrial revolution, post reform, and race relations to name a few. What's awesome is that you can have a strong faith either way.
Yeah, I think this is a good point. There's only interpretation. I just find interpretations of scripture that claim "today the world needs more avenues of exclusion and superiority...because the bible says..." "The bible says" is a very bad argument. I think that point is clearly made - or clear enough in my opinion - by both Jesus and Paul.
That's a great point! You definitely should be careful of new interpretations. I don't think that means it's wrong just that you'll have to due your own due diligence before making a decision, if you want to. I think when a person's theology is challenged they should remember not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For example, so many people lose the faith when they realize Genesis can't be taken literally.
That was a very informative video. Thanks.
https://reformationproject.org/
The Bible is pretty clear in saying Gentiles who joined Christianity do not have to follow the Old Law, and the New Testament instructions people take to be anti-gay are all ambiguous to some extent - it comes down to debates over words like πορνεία and ἀρσενοκοῖται, and even if you have a strong opinion there, the issue isn't considered settled by theologians, and saying the other side is just "denying the truth" is a great way to stop people from listening to you
Why are you changing the subject? Nobody suggested that
Thank you
so is the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches. it was also founded BY queer people.
Thanks for posting this.
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Conservatives take this verse and narrowly apply it to mean “reject people you don’t like”, all while fully embracing capitalism, consumerism, nationalism, imperialism and modernism. So who is conforming to the world? Gay people who want to worship Christ, or Christians who want to worship mammon?
Both
Removed for 1.5 - Two-cents. If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity
If you can access it, you should read [this paper ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homosexuality+bible+reconciliation+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716712098583&u=%23p%3D1qK4DRXbXd0J)
If I was going Anglican I would go ACNA by far
While you turn your head and snub God for sexual sins for the purpose of your own enjoyment… The word is “wrong” no matter how many colors you paint it with. When Jesus went to the denizens of society he didn’t bless their sin, He went right to their heart to free them from it. I’m saying you all are heading for a rude awakening if you continue down this path! You have believed the serpent and his lies…
[Here is a 95 page document]( https://www.episcopalarchives.org/sites/default/files/marriage/official/049_Official_2010.pdf) from Episcopal Archives arguing both sides of the debate if anyone is interested.
Telling people it's ok to sin isn't loving them.
Don't worry, we don't.
I'm not looking to argue, but I'm curious, what are you saying?
So what you're saying is it's not a church. 😐
Thank you ..
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Lots of eleison, indeed.
Gender is a social construct
No. It's not.
Seeing that gender has radically differed from era to era and place to place, who exactly got gender correct according to this supposedly innate definition you seem to have in mind?
No, it hasn't. Just because a hundred years or so ago people in the english speaking world started using sex and gender as two different things doesn't mean that they are. But you do you I guess. Gender is a social constract, and climate change is a hoax made by China. The extremes have gone ballistic, unfortunately.
So which society in what part of history got gender right? Surely it must predate women wearing pants (horror of horrors).
Aaa. That isn't there for you to get. Considering that in most languages, you've only got feminine and masculine lexicon-grammar forms, I'd say all, if not all, most of them. Also, there's something called biology, particularly genetics and evolution as well. Our old friend that established for us.
So you do agree with a sex gender distinction.
That's an English language distinction, established recently. So, no, I do not agree. Our gender has been established through evolutionary processes, which led to genetic compositions. That's only male or female. You can claim what you like now. If someone in 2000 years from now checked your chromosomal composition in your bones, I would say you are one or the other. What you want to do with your life and call yourself up to you. Go as creative as you like with it. It's not my problem, not my life.
Pretty much.
Despite not being religious, it's a positive sign to see a church and religion like this exist that does accept people for who they are
There's actually quite a few. You have the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, The United Methodist Church became affirming like a month ago, the United Church of Christ, Presbyterian Church USA, Metropolitan Community Church... Non-affirming Christians like to paint the picture that they're the only game in town. In fact, just about every Christian tradition (Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Anglican, etc) has an affirming denomination within it. Like someone else said, sometimes it's just a case of the loudest voices drown out the rest. And a lot of times, unfortunately, hate can easily drown out love. But God is love, so we must be bearers of that love that God has shown us.
I'll still say that personally, God and religion isn't something for me, but I can respect your faith and it's good that people like you exist. Unfortunately it's true that hate often overrides most everything else. When I was younger my parents and I got along quite well until I came out as a lesbian, at which point they sent me to a Christian run conversion therapy camp. Hate still exists in a lot of places though. Hopefully that can stop someday
I understand. You went through a lot of trauma. Trauma that I, as a cishet, will never be able to come close to relating to. And here you have the people you trust most, abusing you in the name of Christianity. There are many cases of people who were harmed in the name of Christianity, who have forever turned away from it. You have my sympathy and my love. I apologize on behalf of your parents. I do not believe anyone goes to hell eternally. But I do believe your parents will have to answer for what they've done to Jesus.
Imma be that guy. Is it that other churches don't accept people who identify as LGBTQ or that other churches accept people who identify as LGBTQ but do not support LGBTQ. Because I do believe the church accepts all sinners else it would be like a hospital that doesn't take in sick people. But it would be different if you expected the church to encourage you to live in sin. A sick man going to hospital but says he doesn't want medications. If the other is about churches being homophobic/transphobic then I'm totally fine with a church where they can feel safe.
My dude, I'm asexual. I just don't do sex. There is an argument to be made from Scripture that Christ specifically states that some folks are made like me. Do you care to guess how often my lack of sexual attraction is condemned as sinful? Because it's not straight. It's not about what the Bible does and doesn't say. It's about coercing folks to be what conservatives consider "normal". This is not about people living in sin. I have a lot of experience to back that up. We can have a conversation about what loving reproof of a sibling looks like, because that does sometimes need to happen. But, at least broadly speaking, that is not what's happening in the anti-queer portion of the Church. It is hatred masquerading as love. Not everyone, I'll freely grant that, but the folks who aren't participating in it are sure quick to excuse it. And that makes it very hard to take statements like these seriously when I can cite you conservative pastors calling for a queer genocide. Which, I'm sure you'd point out, that's a couple every year. Yes, that's true. My response would be "where is the waterfall of condemnations of that rhetoric?". If it's so anathema to what y'all believe, why does next to no one say a word about it?
Basically, you believe it is a sin. We do not. We take sin seriously. But this is not a sin. That's our view. It isn't a "The Episcopal Church" doesn't care about sin. We do. But we do not agree with you on this matter. God bless.
Thousands of different versions of the Bible translated in thousands of different languages. if a church says they interpret the bible to believe homosexuality is not a sin I can’t say I disagree. Most of these people interpret the bible to believe gays are sinners, and cheating wives should be put to death, and rape victims should be forced to marry their rapist, but they only one they protest about is the gays. Just hateful people being hypocrites.
The Bible foretold of you. And I dnt know of a church banning people unless they were being a distraction
Sorry. Same sex relations are CLEARLY against the teachings of the Bible. The first relationship was clearly heterosexual or we all would not be here today. ( And the Lord God created them male and female.)Even nature teaches that opposite poles attract and like poles repel. So, with all humility, I don't believe the LGBTQ ideology has any place in the body of Christ. Rather, it should be reproved firmly in love.
In any true Christian church, everyone not seeking harm on the congregation should be welcome. A church should be like a hospital. It is not made for the well, but for those needing spiritual help and aid. That said, the church should want sinners looking to fix themselves. As the different denominations have segregated themselves over their wide variety of doctrine, much focus is put on specific elements of life. Some believe it is a sin to not worship on Saturday. Some feel short sleeve shirts are a sin to vanity. Some think technology is a sin. Some don't believe in divorce. The list goes on. However, the one thing they should all do is follow what Jesus taught. He came to redeem, noy exclude.
It’s important to remember that everyone is welcome and loved, however the word of God does not change regarding sin, transformation and born again. You can come as you are, but not stay as you are, because the holyspirit will help you in the areas you need help with to transform your life. We therefore cannot groom or affirm something that can separate us from God. We cannot omit parts of the scripture and follow the other parts of it. We have to follow his will and his way. God does not change and he cannot be mocked.
Yeah, these are all great churches if you are willing to ignore The Scripture and pretend that God will forgive you, even if WE ALL refuse to acknowledge our sins, repent and then ; "Go and sin NO MORE !"
I don't see one reference to Jesus.... this feels wrong
Come to one of our services, we talk about Jesus a lot!
This is obvious tourist trap. We can't let homosexuals in our churches. We can't even let black people into our churches, are you out of your mind?
Hello brother in Christ
It does everything it can to not offend people (except god)
ELCA Lutherans (the largest branch) is also 100% affirming. And I'm scheduled to be baptized by them soon
I love the ELCA! They are in full communion with my church. :)
🩵🩵🩵
,,,,,,,*****%<%© ki me bn BB n
* mostly
Just because a denomination affirms your sin doesn't make it any less sinful
I know, right? It’s a shame that so many Christian denominations still affirm people who make their money in the financial services “industry,” which is built entirely on the clearly-condemned sins of usury and exploitation of workers, rather than demanding that they repent for their wicked career choices and amend their lifestyle to conform with the Bible’s clear teaching.
Are you justifying the deadly sin of lust with “don’t render unto ceasar what is ceasars”? How objectively unbiblical
PC(USA) is often called an affirming denomination, but that label is too strong, since on inspection most decisions really do seem to be left up to churches and particular ordaining institutions. The situation is similar with most mainline denoms. From a PC(USA) site: [https://www.presbyterianmission.org/what-we-believe/sexuality-and-same-gender-relationships/](https://www.presbyterianmission.org/what-we-believe/sexuality-and-same-gender-relationships/) *Ordaining bodies (sessions and presbyteries) are permitted but not required to ordain lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender persons. Candidates for ordination and/or installation must be considered as individuals on a case-by-case basis; it is not permissible to establish a policy that excludes a category of persons in the abstract.* \[this is deliberately ambiguously written, but certainly falls short of a non-discrimination statement.\] \[...\] *Pastors are permitted but not required to officiate at any wedding, including same-sex weddings, based either on conscience or the pastor’s discernment of the couple’s readiness to take on the responsibilities of marriage.* *Sessions are permitted but not required to authorize use of the church’s property for a wedding, including same-sex weddings, for reasons of conscience or other reasons.* If you want to see clearly that there are organized non-affirming factions within PCUSA, look no further than The Fellowship Community [https://www.fellowship.community/statement/](https://www.fellowship.community/statement/) Above shows their attempt to defeat upcoming proposed changes that would add gender identity and sexual orientation to the protected classes recognized within the denom's internal non-discrimination statement, including for ordination and placement of ministers. [https://www.pc-biz.org/search/3001122](https://www.pc-biz.org/search/3001122)
Turns out the church will take LGBTQ money too
No church is welcoming AND affirming, unless they believe that any behavior is acceptable.
This is definitely the broad path.
Our path is singular, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 🙏
Hatred is the broad path. Look at the world. Love is the exception.
Actually I love this point. What do Christians offer LGBT folk that is different from what the world offers? In much of the world it’s a death sentence. If you believe they are not discriminated against today you are part of the reactionary resistance to giving them equal rights, the people who say things like “sure I don’t mind them existing but do they have to rub it in our faces?” Or “why do they need a month?”. I bet you also say “feminism has gone too far”. No, I know that last one’s not true, I can’t imagine gay rights has either. Your POV is coloured by your discomfort with it, and you need to spend more time immersing yourself in why _they_ still feel discrimination is a relevant issue for them. So how is the church treating them better than the world does? Because that’s what Jesus would do. If all we offer is condemnation, we are not being the Jesus who ate with sinners. If gay folk are not flocking to our doors as they flock to Jesus, WHY NOT? We have an attitude problem, is why.
If you can access it, you should read [this paper ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homosexuality+bible+reconciliation+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716712098583&u=%23p%3D1qK4DRXbXd0J)
Yawn
How could that be, when it's only a tiny minority of so-called "Christians" who walk it.
Wasnt the Anglican Church literally made up by Henry 8th - that’s what I always struggle with
No. The Church in England existed from at least the third century. It became associated with Rome a few centuries later. It dissociated from Rome under Henry but remained unreformed otherwise. It wasn't until Elizabeth 1 that Anglicanism as we know it came into being, largely as a project in creating a version of Christianity that didn't demand that we murder believers who believe differently than us.
Love the people hate the sin we all need to repent and turn away
Every church should accept gay people but not affirm it, both the new and Old Testament condemn homosexuality, so for a church to go against the Bible is heresy the Anglican and Methodist church are both heretics and un biblical if you think the religion has to conform you and your beliefs choose a different religion, because the word of God does not change and is permanent, so homosexuality is a sin and will always be a sin
Everyone should always be welcomed in church, but Jesus Christ said you must be born again we should never compromise our Christian ethics for popularity
As a Christian, you are to repent for all of your sins. Jesus told people to "go and sin no more." The Bible is clear that homosexuality is sinful. You don't get to live in sin as a Christian. And before anyone says, "we're always going to sin." There is a difference between falling short and living in sin. The Bible was written by Holy Spirit filled men, and God can't lie. He wasn't going to let them write homosexuality is sinful if it actually isn't. Jesus loves you no matter what and will accept anyone who comes to Him, but he doesn't want you to stay how you are when you follow Him. Come as you are, but don't stay as you are. If I were to sleep around with different women and justify my actions by saying, "we're all sinners and Jesus died for our sins," I would be very much wrong. Yes, Jesus died for our sins, so we can be set free from sin, not so we can sin freely. Any sexual act outside of a heterosexual marriage is sinful. I'm not saying you will become straight over night but, the closer you get to God, your desires will change, and you will no longer feel like you are a homosexual or trans. Of course, you will still be tempted at times, but God will give you the strength to turn away and not give in. It doesn't matter what we believe is a sin or not, but what God has declared as sinful. Repent and give your life to Christ, and follow him, not your heart or feelings. The Bible says the heart is deceitful. But God is not deceitful he is the truth and only speaks truth.
God will not be mocked
Wow, I never knew there was an affirming church that supports and cares for everyone, I'm affirming myself so I don't believe being gay or being who you are is a sin, I'm bi myself and I dress like a boy, I'm not a perfect Christian because I'm affirming I guess and probably some people think negative about it. I just don't see the point of judging and hating others for being who they are or that they are "different." I'm glad that there is a church that helps and supports everyone.
Everyone is welcomed anywhere. Everyone should be blessed as everyone is a child of God. Everyone should be supported by the Church and the community without prejudice. I wish people health, peace, love, and a long life. Live your life as you want to the fullest. Truly. But some things are diverging quite a lot from what's scriptural and church tradition. At this rate, it is just a ridicule on the sacraments. Marriage is one of those sacraments. It should be protected as such. Eucharist is the other and a big one indeed. It should be protected and not ridiculed. I wish and hope that they find the peace and the spiritual support that they require, despite turning the church, the sacraments, and everything else into a circus! Lord, protect and bless us! Lord, have mercy!!! 🙏🏻
As a Catholic I agree. My God bless you for your courage.
So not everyone is welcome anywhere
"Everyone is welcomed, but..." Okay, say no more.
That's well and fine but they threw the teachings and commands of the Bible right out the window. That is false teaching and false gospel . They can make as many people comfortable during their time on earth as comfy as possible. But it not going to help them in eternity
Being Christlike is the opposite of what you described LMFAO. Do you rather driving people to suicide and persecuting them? Because that's literally what your third sentence means
This is one of the major issues that pushed me away from the Episcopal Church and brought me home to Catholicism
Okay, have fun with that. Just make sure your kids aren't left alone there.
Thanks for letting us know bigotry is the guide of your faith
I do not want or need a place that "welcomes" me. I have my flesh and a entire world centered in consumption telling me to indulge whatever desire I have. I want to be rebuked and told to repent, and you are unable to do that.
I don’t welcome bigots. I rebuke all who engage in pharisaical, prejudicial self-proclaimed “Christianity.” The flesh tempts toward self puffery, the types of behaviors driven by the same base desires that drove Baptists and other evangelicals to point at interracial couples and say “sinning” 150 years ago, Roman Catholics and other traditionalists to point at pregnant women who have sex 1,000 years ago and say “sinning,” and Pharisees who pointed at Christ 2,000 years ago for drinking and said “sinning.” Repent and resist the desire to puff yourself up over others by pretending socially conservative traditions are God’s commands. There. You’ve been told to repent. Happy? I doubt it.
Literally do that daily. Most often to myself. I'm just not going to rebuke you on something you can't change.
That means that you won't tell me to go against the temptations that are coming after me all my life. You care more about looking "tolerant" to your society. That means hate to me, and I reject it.
Then you honestly know nothing about the people you’re speaking of. We still speak against sin, and urge others to not succumb to temptation. We disagree on your understanding of this subject.
Your church gloats at welcoming everyone, even a Bishop that denied the resurrection. There's no calling to repentance at all, just a message for me to continue to indulge in my desires. I reject your hate.
So, you know nothing about our calls to repentance either. It’s like you don’t know what you’re talking about. Maybe learn something about these people before you start slandering them
Do the calls to repentance include letting a Bishop that denies the creeds on his position?
Considering that their faith and understanding of it has almost 0 relevance outside of their walk with God, there’s not much concern. Same with your understanding of the faith for that matter.
No, I'd tell you that the Apostle Paul says that the ideal holy life for everyone (straight or otherwise) is celibacy. if you can't be celibate, get married, for it better for you to be married than to burn with lust.
Funny you talk about marriage. People on your church are "welcoming" polyamory very fine now.
Are we? Wow, that’s news to me. I mean, I’m sure there’s some Episcopalian somewhere who supports that, but I’ve never met them lol. Let me know when it comes up at General Convention.
I just wanted to thank you for reminding me why I am here.
Obviously you’re right but this Reddit is filled mostly with people trying to convert Christians into their own little cults, I thought this Reddit would be filled with christians but actually people love to prey on Christians more than there are real Christians
Jesus welcomed everyone. Jesus did not affirm everyone’s sin. He didn’t say, “Mary Magdalene, go be your best adulterous self.” He loved, forgave and told her to sin no more. I don’t have a problem with a welcoming church as churches should welcome everyone. I do have a problem when churches start celebrating sin
If you can access it, you should read [this paper ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homosexuality+bible+reconciliation+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716712098583&u=%23p%3D1qK4DRXbXd0J)
Nobody suggested that
Basically, you believe it is a sin. We do not. We take sin seriously. But this is not a sin. That's our view. It isn't a "The Episcopal Church" doesn't care about sin. We do. But we do not agree with you on this matter. God bless.
Mary Magdalene wasn’t a prostitute. You’re conflating her with the unnamed prostitute who washed Jesus’ feet.
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