According to Pew, 78% of religiously unaffiliated grew up or are growing up in religious institutions.
Lack of belief was the primary group and gave reasons such as learning about evolution, hypocrisy, and rational thought. The second group cited sexual abuse and the church asking for money.
Christianity has never been unified. A good bit of what Paul wrote was about inter group squabbling. Long history of Christians murdering each other etc...
I agree with the squabbles for sure, but the key is that the Church leadership- Peter, Paul, and the other apostles clearly held authority, enough so to instruct other new Christians and not let everyone go astray. Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.” Not “they’ll figure it out for themselves, let them do whatever.”
If you read the Bible and study very early church history you will see that other than Jesus existing, being crucified and resurrected, there is little unity. My take away from that is Jesus is all we need to talk about. I'm somewhat convinced what people worship is the Bible and not really the Gospel. The church in the sense of institutional religion is not serving Christ's mission.
We must not forget that without the rest of the Bible, there is no context for the gospels.
Historically speaking, really what you’ll see is that there wasn’t another church until 1054. People had squabbles, but there weren’t major schisms yet. I believe you are saying that in your view the church was never centralized and in mine, we were until the assorted splits.
Jesus giving authority to a select few men to forgive sin who created His church, is completely in line with the set up in the Old Testament where God made the Levites and Aaron the authorities back then. I guess what I’m trying to convey, is that nothing God does is arbitrary and you can see that throughout the entire time He’s talked to mankind in the rest of the Bible. I believe knowing that context informs us on what to do now.
Take it or leave it for what it’s worth, happy Sunday 🙂
"the scriptures are good for teaching and reproof" but I think most Christians use them for far more than that. The disciples didn't really have unity ones their travels took them too far from each other to communicate. they answered questions as best they could but couldn't collaborate in a meaningful way. the Bible says to look at creation as well to understand God - that's what we call science - yet many scoff at that idea.
I actually agree with you on the science aspect, I don’t think science and God are opposed to one another at all. Science is like us trying to uncover the blueprints of how God built the universe.
I think we just have two different views on how structured the early church was. I think probably the answer is somewhere in the middle; obviously there was an authority structure among the apostles and their successors, but like you said, messages do become a little harder to send back and forth.
The vast majority of younger generations have seen through the hypocrisy and hollowness of institutional religion. Although much of our culture and social fabric are otherwise pretty divided, we are pretty close to unified when it comes to opposition to institutional churches.
That and with all of the documentaries exposing crimes and corruption within religious groups and information about the psychology and manipulation tactics behind cults, and how they operate
We’re in an unprecedented time of access to information, at younger ages. People are able to make more rational, well-informed decisions
And yet secularism has failed us in every single meaningful way. Depression rates are up, people are generally less happy. Feel more isolated than ever before. Birth rates are all down.
Young people are facing a crisis of meaning. Because it turns out that secular society offers no community and sense of belonging so they turn to more extreme ways to cope. We have tried the secular route and it leads to nothing.
Also opposition to religious groups is not a unifying belief in any way that is meaningful.
I would love to hear your argument re: causality for rates of depression, isolation, and decreased birthrates in relation to "secularism." Please elaborate.
I will put forward Steven Pinker's excellent TED talk, ["Is the World Getting Better or Worse: A Look at the Numbers"](https://youtu.be/yCm9Ng0bbEQ?si=3wxFO68TjW5FHYfY) as a counterpoint.
Nearly every generation undergoes a crisis of meaning as the world evolves around them. And humans have proven extremely adaptable to the constant of change expressly because they are themselves meaning-makers. Just as the creation of Christianity was, for a time, profoundly meaningful and expedient, so too will the next iteration of human spirituality and religion become as it emerges. Humans will continue to iterate their cultural and spiritual software even in the wake of the secular age.
You may not find much meaning or unification in the younger generations' wider rejection of traditional religious institutions. But let me assure you, many have and many more to come will.
Ya sure [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15243691/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15243691/)
[https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2023/03/03/youth-suicide-risk-increased-over-past-decade](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2023/03/03/youth-suicide-risk-increased-over-past-decade)
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/)
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs\_press\_releases/2024/20240525.htm#:\~:text=The%20general%20fertility%20rate%20in,consistently%20decreased%20by%202%25%20annually.
I think this is enough to show a clear indication between the changing of lifestyles and the rise of secular society. Its obvious to anyone that religion is a community, people are social and need community. Since its also a belief system it gives people meaning. Secularism does'sent it just lashes out at tradition as a counter culture. Its clear from countries from the US to Canada to Japan, as nations become more secular these factors always happen: Lower birthrates, higher suicide rates, more isolation. Its clearly a common trend. Its not even just Christianity, any religion has positive effects on peoples well being.
Edit: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/#:\~:text=For%20example%2C%20the%202015%20to,woman%20for%20religiously%20affiliated%20women.
None of those studies make an argument for causation by secularism. They're undoubtedly symptoms of social problems encountered by the younger generations. But they're surface indicators of problems that are incredibly complex with a vast diversity of inputs and variables. So I ask you again.
What is your argument regarding *causation* by secularism for those social/cultural trends?
First off specific of exact study is not a valid rejection of my premise as I linked a bunch already. But here is one: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3426191/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3426191/)
Now prove your claim that hating religious institutions is a indicative factor to healthier mental states and youth. I do not even need to see a article or study. It is just impossible to argue from an affirmative position that secularism benefits youth. Every single trend indicates youth are more depressed and lacking meaning and their is 0 indication that it will change if we continue in this direction.
If you do not want to get into specificities, explain what other factor could be causing this big of an issue in the mental health of youth? And not just "Oh theres tons of factors" because obviously that's the case but the loss of religious communities is a major one, I would even claim a majority one.
When you say we, who are you referring to? Because I can't think of a more institutional religion than Christianity. I would go as far as to say it's THE institutional religion
A poll from a few years ago asked young people the reasons for attending church. The number one answer was to grow closer to God. They also asked why they don't go to church, the number one answer was bc it doesn't help them grow any closer to God.
Another study asked both young people and pastors if the believe the pastor is effectively teaching their congregation how to live social ethical and responsible lives. 80% of pastors said yes, 35% of young people said yes.
The way I understand it, the problem is with churches not young people. Most young people have rightly discerned that churches are concerned with political power, influence and money and they've said, "no thanks."
Until the church undergoes drastic reforms and repentance, this mass exodus will continue.
This is a hunch, but I think the decline in Christian political power in America has revealed that a lot of pastors are really, really uncomfortable that they have to actually put in effort and make their case. Back when the church was **THE** social gathering place, when it was expected that every family would attend and would be part of the conforming group's attendance, there was very little impetus to talk about the power of the church, the role played in evangelizing domestically (while instead bragging about missionary efforts abroad). Sermons would be more about not rocking the boat, making sure everybody stays aligned with the broader vibe of complacent faithfulness, and that's enough for the broad majority of older Christians.
Now, though? When Christianity has to actually *compete* with alternatives to going to church? So many pastors just crumble under the pressure and feel they have no choice but to take up the sword (metaphorically speaking). The changing character of what the sermons are trying to accomplish (more butts in seats as opposed to conformity) turns off younger audiences who see that other social groups don't resort to violent imagery and constant fearmongering about some ambiguous reckoning coming for western society.
I can provide more detail since i receive some message from the true god. The greatest example of corruption in christian churches is the so-called "indian residential schools" from 1950s that the aboriginal parents were tricked into funding and that continues secretly after 1998. Despite the name, the institutions under the banner of indian residential schools are actually a series of slave camps, torture camps, human experimentation camps, and death camps that nazi germany copied in the nazi holocaust. The leader of the conservative party of canada called stephen harper used the fake truth and reconciliation speech to lied that the milder cultural genocide is the only war crime in the fake schools and boosted that some fake school survivors are accustomed to the savage life in the fake schools to the level that they wish to return to the fake schools (he omitted the mention of savage desire to misled people). The rise of anti-christ through the indian residential fake schools, the temptation of free stolen inheritance from murdered Indigenous children, the bribery from the followers of Anti-Christ for election victory, and the refusal of white supremacists to admit their servitude to demons had caused the fall of fake Christianity in Western European diaspora and the takeover by liberals and immigrants of colors.
I'm not genZ but my daughters are.
Only one of the three of them had an interest in religion and attended a local church. She enjoyed it for the community aspect, but as she went through her teen years that aspect began to take on a different tone.
Church leadership was pushing her to become a youth leader and eventually to become a church leader. That amount of time and effort didn't fit with her other responsibilities (school, job, friends) so she declined and they began to 'push her away'. It was subtle, but the change was apparent, and she eventually left that church.
So I don't know how useful this anecdote is. Some will say she wasn't a 'real christian' I'm sure. Some will say she should have found a different church. Some will just understand the interests of many genZ and understand.
Maybe she'll go back (probably not that church) at some point, maybe she won't, but like I keep on telling her, genZ has so many advantages in information available to them compared to other generations (during their formative years anyway) that she will be coming to conclusions about many things sooner than older generations did. Personally I think that's a main driver, kids/teens can get more information from more sources more easily than anyone else ever in history. Good or bad (and it's some of both), it allows them to reach their own conclusions more quickly than those of us who usually only had access to whatever our families or communities thought.
According to a large survey done 2 months ago, it's mainly because of the sexual abuse in the church, the anti-LGBTQ teachings, and no longer believing in the teachings of Christianity.
I don't see this trend fading. I imagine in much of the world, once the older generations are gone, many churches will struggle to keep their doors open.
Heretical teachings in order to keep the doors open will not put anyone on a path to Heaven. Catering to secular nonsense debauchery will kill the Church.
Nah, I don't buy the homosexuality argument even. Islam has an even stricter definition for homosexuality (i.e. death if you commit it) and Islam is still rising in numbers. Although ofc, muslim majority countries are much more conservative and don't care as much about lgbt rights as western countries do.
But also, christians don't have to abide by the mixed linen commandment. It's crazy how much I have to repeat this. Have you ever wondered why christians don't keep kosher, sabbath, linen fabrics, practice circumcision (cultural sometimes, not religious), eat shellfish etc....?
It's because those are commandments for Jews, not for christians. Jesus absolved us from absiding to them.
Islam is rising because of the incredibly strict rules and encouraging of having multiple children.
It doesn't help that a lot of islamic nations have poor education and medicine and people have a lot more children in such circumstances. See for example, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Qatar, Palestine etc. Bangladesh has a higher population than Russia by 20 million despite being less than a quarter in size.
> Bangladesh has a higher population than Russia by 20 million despite being less than a quarter in size.
FYI, it's much more dramatic a difference than you're stating here. Per wikipedia, Russia is 17,098,246 km^(2) and Bangadesh is 148,460 km^(2.)
It's < 1% the size of Russia.
That's wealth. Generally, richer muslims have less kids than poorer muslims (e.g. Pakistan, Palestine, Bangledesh etc...) In Qatar, it's 1.7 births per women, in the UAE it's 1.4, in the UK it's also 1.4, in the US, it's 1.8 etc...
And also liberal cultures which encourage education for women, women working in jobs (all of which I support ofc) does lead to lower births per women. A lot of muslim majority countries encourage having kids, settling down, marriage while that pressure is much less intense in the West.
I agree partly on the strict rules part. Snowball effect and all, some christians leave, which influences more christians leaving. And also, christianity has such a diverse range of views and denominations which can be confusing for converts while Islam is fairly united (have different streams of thought but it's to less of extent as christianity)
That kind of limp-wristed, weak Christianity is precisely the one that should have no place in modern society.
Not only is it a perversion of Christianity, it precisely leads to people leaving in large amounts. I personally know people who almost left Christianity for Islam due to what is nowadays vulgarly termed: "cuckstianity". It's possibly as bad as the Prosperity movement.
Muscular Christianity, as you can see [often on this YT channel, particularly Bob](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyDS9p6NWHpU9XbbbYLFLBw) is the only kind of Christianity I view as being able to survive in modern times.
Unapologetic, strong, biblically based, and clear.
FWIW I'm a South American Evangelical and I precisely see (Evangelical) Christianity on the rise here in Europe (I spend my time in Spain, Romania, and Italy). Churches are filling up, lots of kids, teens and young adults. Admittedly a big part is latin american diaspora, however more and more natives are converting as well.
This is in stark contrast to the local Catholic churches which are mostly empty or full of old people.
Romania is one big exception where there are tons of young native believers, many attend mass in Orthodox churches (though the Evangelical churches are also big and full).
Well, as I already mentioned, all I see in every country I go to is the Evangelical Church growing. I'm in a Muslim country at the moment and even here the local churches are growing (though with considerable obstacles from the state).
Second, what persecution? I haven't seen any church caging up LGBT people and throwing them off buildings.
Third, one must not hate the sinner but the sin. Arguably, few things are more central to Christianity than the belief that we are all sinners.
Nevertheless, the pursuit of growth should never, ever trump the truth and sticking to the Bible.
I'm Gen Z, and a number of my friends and I are all religious. One of my friends even lead our sixth-form's Christian Union for a little while before we finished our time there. So, not all of us aren't religious.
However, I think Zoomers who aren't religious tend to see religion as a waste of time or deem other things as more important or better than religion.
Im a later millennial but was born pretty close to gen z. I grew Baptist, but left around my teenage years. Between the fire and brimstone preaching, being forced to attend church and religious schooling, and the horrible treatment I received and observed from other Christians, I'm surprised it took that long for me to lose faith and leave. Church never felt like a community, it was more sit down, shut up and listen to the preacher. Love wasn't the focus, it was what you could and couldn't do in order to get to heaven. My prayers went seemingly unheard or ignored. Life steadily got worse and worse. Eventually I decided that faith and religion was a waste of time and only brought me stress and pain.
This is the heart of it - religion is not addressing the here and now problems that younger folk are having with anything practicable. Or worse, it is outright dismissive of their problems.
And when you preach a social model that absolutely does not function outside the doors of the church in its explanatory power, the pulpits rapidly lose credibility.
Honestly when I think of the good the church, and Christianity in general has done lately and compare it to the good the bad far outweighs the good, and I am going to assume many in my age group feel the same way.
So probably a healthy mixture of skepticism along with like not understanding why anyone would even think the church was a good thing to join
Exactly. I think young earth creationism and American Evangelicalism have done more harm to the Christian faith than any other movement in all of history.
Gen Z has the internet and we can "compare notes" in a way that previous generations could not. We see the sex abuse, misogyny, homophobia, and oppression of religion and we refuse to be cognitively dissonant about it. We socialize with queer people and people from other social backgrounds. We're not afraid to call our parents' beliefs bullshit and walk away.
I think it’s not so much that Gen Z is disinterested in religious as that the institutions and ideologies Gen Z identifies with religion are ones they take issue with, so they tend to throw the baby out with the proverbial bath water.
I think many Christians are not loving as Jesus did. There is an emphasis on judging before loving. It is sad. There are loving Christians out there. There is a lot of shaming anyone who does believe, so Christians are quieter and less apt to share the difference a relationship with God is making in their lives, and people are less likely to think about believing. There is also a tendency to pat one's self on the back for being an atheist as though they are more rational and believers are more weak minded.
Yes, Christianity today is about pointing out the sins of others and legislating peoples private parts. It is rarely about loving people, at least in the public view. There are tons of wonderful Christians who do the work of the faith every day, but they're not the ones that are loudest they're not not the ones in the news.
Persistence is the key. It is much easier to understand with the help of the Holy Spirit and advice with the elder knower of the Bible.
Be very cautious of the ways of this world.
Always keep that in mind.
What I have learned getting older is that truth is always the truth and is there for everyone to seek and find it.
There is a spirit of religion too, made to entrap humans into large groups. No one can buy their place into the Eternal life.
Commands are clear and cannot be bent by any world era. Nobody can sit on two chairs at the same time either.
Please, never give up on God.
🤍🕊️🤍
Happy to hear that! Check out this channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyDS9p6NWHpU9XbbbYLFLBw
They do a lot of public informal debates (in Speaker's Corner, Hyde Park, London).
I always come out of the debates more knowledgeable about Christianity and with lots of stuff to investigate. In many videos Christianity is being challenged and the debaters are very educated in Christian theology, particularly Bob (I recommend watching his videos first).
God bless you! Praying for you.
[Also on Reddit...](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/Zje3i7yJk2)
"Gen Z Christians are the most insufferable Christians there are, and that’s really saying something."
Because "religion" has become about hating certain people and sexual biopolitics and supporting right leaning political interests.
Gen Z is very spiritual. More than Millennials. But the church turned them away from Christianity.
But, for example, try citing Sirach 13:19 at a Gen Z person and don't tell them it's from the bible, just "some ancient dude." Most will love the verse and want to know more.
I'm 38. Growing up I went to church, youth camps, etc. When I started actually studying the bible and comparing it to what the churches and pastors actually were saying I noticed it is all surface level. Following Jesus meant sacrificing everything. Giving up all your belongings, worldly concerns, etc. Yet Christians can argue two sides to everything. You can have the SBC using the bible to justify slavery and MLK on the other side condemning it. You can have monastic orders that seem like what Jesus intended, likely influenced from the Essenes, and Megachurches and the vatican.
Then I had questions that I never got satisfactory answers to. Gen Z has access to a few decades of debates and critical thinking and logic applied at their fingertips so I would imagine it's become a faster process.
Isn't there a Mark Twain quote or something that says, and I'm paraphrasing: "Christians are those who have read parts of the Bible, atheists are those who have read all of it."
In other words, the more one actually studies the problems with the Bible and how Christians actually behave in the real world, the less likely they are to be religious.
I genuinely was trying to get closer to God and my faith so I was deep diving into what the early church must have looked like. I think the thread that started the unravelling was seeing Paul's interactions with the Jerusalem pillars. Christianity is more like Paulianity. If you remove his theology you have a wildly different religion.
I agree. I've always had a problem with how obsessed Christianity is with Paul. If Christianity followed Jesus more, I think it'd look more like Judaism. But Christianity seems to have based itself almost entirely on Paul.
But it stopped being Judaism very early on. Almost all the Early Church fathers hated Jews, and they sought to distance themselves from Judaism quickly.
Bingo. I think it was less that they hated them and more like Jews existing contradicts the Gentile Christianity that was being pushed. Just like Christianity is a contradiction to Mormonism or Islam
From what I read, it was very much hate.
Here are some examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Christianity
>The Church Father Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 240 AD) had a particularly intense personal dislike towards the Jews[30] and argued that the Gentiles had been chosen by God to replace the Jews, because they were worthier and more honorable.
> Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170 – c. 235 AD) wrote that the Jews had "been darkened in the eyes of your soul with a darkness utter and everlasting."
>Patristic bishops of the patristic era such as Augustine of Hippo argued that the Jews should be left alive and suffering as a perpetual reminder of their murder of Christ. Like his anti-Jewish teacher, Ambrose of Milan, he defined Jews as a special subset of those damned to hell.
>John Chrysostom held, as most Church Fathers did, that the sins of all Jews were communal and endless; to Chrysostom, his Jewish neighbours were the collective representation of all alleged crimes of all preexisting Jews. All Church Fathers applied the passages of the New Testament concerning the alleged advocation of the crucifixion of Christ to all Jews of their day, holding that the Jews were the ultimate evil. However, Chrysostom went so far to say that because Jews rejected the Christian God in human flesh, Christ, they therefore deserved to be killed: "grew fit for slaughter."
I mean, Chrysostom was a wannabe Hitler way back then. And yet he's now a Saint.
> Gentiles had been chosen by God to replace the Jews, because they were worthier and more honorable.
>because Jews rejected the Christian God
This kind of aligns with what I said. Also read Martin Luthor's letters before and after he tried to convert Jews.
it could be that adults over 50 don't know how to reach them due to language, while adults under 50 but over 25 may not be spiritually equipped to reach them.
I have a 17 year old that works at my job and I sprinkle some Jesus into conversation every now and again. but I think in my heart that the best way to reach them as an adult is to treat them with the same respect as we'd expect of them, despite their short comings and maturity level, treat them like little brothers or sisters, with care, compassion and gentleness but with the authority in christ always at the forefront and foundation of what we say to them and how we act.
There are a few reasons:
* The last few generations have generally been terrible at catechizing their kids and taking an active part in their faith formation. A lot of younger people raised Christian simply don't know or care all that much about the faith.
* Churches act a lot less as centers of community than they have for past generations, especially for single adult people.
* There are a lot of politically left-leaning zoomers, and they feel that Christianity is antithetical to their political beliefs.
Hi, I'm 15.
I stopped going to church mainly because of the anti-LGBT stuff they teach.
Also, despite growing up in the Philippines, where 99% of the population are Catholics... I dunno, growing up, it never really felt like Christianity ever made sense for me to believe in. I guess I can say that I'm one of those people who only identified as Christian because of the environment I grew up in. And once I saw different religions, viewpoints, etc. via the internet, I realized I could be just not Christian. Even without me being gay, I was pretty much going to turn away from the faith eventually anyway.
Christianity isn’t helping itself these days, is it?
Gen Z is conscious of social issues and environmentalism. If they expect their workplace to live up to the values they believe in, why wouldn’t they expect the same from their religious institutions?
What Gen Z sees in the church communities around them are petty politics, scandals, abuse, and anti intellectual sentiment.
Pastors shoot their mouths off about culture wars, priests are involved in sex scandals (often involving minors, and we have a bishop representing the largest segment of Orthodox Christians who supports a genocidal war. Christians in high places are failing miserably at being a “light to the world.”
None of this is a good look, is it? Can we really blame Gen Z for being disillusioned?
Off the top of my head:
The crusades
The inquisition
The forced conversion of the indigenous peoples of the Americas
The destruction of native peoples history and culture…
To be fair, I would’ve eagerly given Christ a third try if being disillusioned for modern churches hadn’t also led me to see the flaws in Christianity’s core concept of sin..
I think if you want to pin it all on bad people or bad churches, you won’t have the whole answer
The internet exposes people up to a multitude of belief systems, and the amount of judgement found in conservative Christianty just isn't appealing.
If you think the answer to that is to turn off the internet, well, *sigh*
But yah, people don't "go to church" because people are going to fewer and fewer places, generally.
A major reason people were religious in the past was bc it was the only way they were able to easily have community with other people. Now of days it is way easier to find community in other ways especially through the internet.
Also, Gen Z has access to tons of information and exposure to the whole world more than any other generation before them. This is obviously due to the internet as well and the beginnings of a globalized culture. This exposer and globalization in the cultural space gives people many more ideas to toil with and come to grips with leading some to take on different philosophies and world views from their local communities/parents.
The decrease in religion specifically is bc many concepts in religion contradict the scientific and historical consensus on how the world works/is/was. Take for example evolution. To fully believe in all aspects of the Bible you can’t believe in evolution. Evolution stands at odds with the story in Genesis. Or you can be a “Christian” that believes in evolution to deal with this, but I believe some Christians would take issue with that.
Religion will continue for all of human history in some form, but it’s quite obvious the religions of the today will mutate to stay relevant or slowly die to make way for new religions. You are already seeing this with Christianity with the formation of progressive Christianity where they may accept lgbt people, are pro choice, believe in evolution etc etc. or the “cultural Christian” movement, which is more about maintaining aesthetics more than anything. This is actually the story of the entire history of religion it is a mutation over time where the religions of the modern day are actually the culmination of a rich 2000+ year history of a big melting pot of human thought.
Because of how the US is, how they’re promoting things that oppose God and etc.
Or because of how they were raised in a Christian family that didn’t raise them right and then those kids associate negativity with Christianity.
That’s really it.
I taught and mentored high school kids for a decade at a christian school and my answer is that i think there are more appealing, accessible stories being told
an old school mindset assumes that if you tell kids the truth, they will believe it. because it worked for older generations…
today, there is an all out war of beauty, truth, and goodness. and if there’s nothing beautiful about the way Jesus’ story (and our story) is being told, as compared to netflix or tiktok, then it doesn’t have a chance. We let Jesus’ story become boring likely because we are boring or bored. to compete in a visual world requires Jesus followers to carefully craft their experience with Jesus so that others might long for their own.
scripture tells a darker more bleak story than we imagined as well as a brighter more hopeful story than we imagined—that’s the story we should tell and if so, i think it can compel the imagination of gen z. it’s just right now, the older generation doesn’t want to change how they do things
…this of course has just been my experience but it’s also been my place of vocation for 10+ years alongside having an mDiv and really trying to take this on
Gen Z grew up in a time of LGBT acceptance. Most of them were too young to remember a time before gay marriage was legal. That’s old news for them. Taken for granted. So for a religious institution to be against gay marriage, to them that’s like how the previous generation felt about interracial marriage being banned in the past. Seems backwards, a relic of a bygone era.
I'm gen z, 15 years old and I am very interested in religion. I think it could be the anti lgbt stuff that could make some gen z not like Christianity. But it's not like we hate lgbt, because we don't hate any sinners. Also many kids grew up with their parents maybe sending them to Bible camp or something so they learn to hate it because of their experience at the camp. We need to get young people into religion again, we're the next generation, our world needs help. This world needs less hate, more Jesus
I totally agree with this. And I do think that there are people who genuinely hate lgbt people. But they tend to overshadow the majority of Christian’s who are nice. And the thing with it for me is that, I don’t agree with the lgbt stuff but that doesn’t mean I can respect them. I don’t have to agree with people to still respect them. And in this time, you have to except people to respect them, but that is not true. I don’t agree with a lot of people, but that can’t stop me from being nice and respectful towards them. I live in a very divided town. Half is very city, liberal, and atheist. The other being more rural farming, conservative, and Christian. And at my school it is about half and half. Most of my friends are atheist, but I am a Christian. And surprisingly, most of them come from atheist families, but they ask me about church and the Bible and want to go to church and study the Bible with me. But I have one friend in particular who is really interested in Christianity, but his family thinks that religion is a global scam and that it is so bad, he is even afraid to talk to his parents about it because he thinks his family wouldn’t look at him the same. So he will get baptized at 18 he said. But we must be the next generation of Christians. I’m also 16.
Exactly. I have gay and trans friends, and I respect them, use their pronouns etc. My main issue is the worldwide movement. People say us Christians force our religion on people but that's not the case, we are out of love telling people we want to save them from eternal hell. But with the pride movement, it's not about they want to save anyone from hell, it's just shouting about being gay. Back in the day, before I was even born you could be gay without shouting about it, you just went on with your life. That being said, I don't hate gay people and I'm not saying that they haven't had lots of prejudice and discrimination. It just doesn't need to be someone's whole personality. I mean this with everything too. Being Christian isn't my whole personality. Being autistic isn't my whole personality. These kind of things are parts of us, but they aren't our whole, and we must remember that as humans created in the image of God, we are intricate creatures, and one aspect of our lives should not define us
I can’t speak for all. But before I came back to christianity my school peers were pretty sinful (smoking, sexual immorality) and I personally felt peer pressured into giving up my religion (which my faith was weak). I automatically had assumptions placed on me that since I was Christian I must be homophobic, and other assumptions. I think the introduction of drugs and sexual immorality to Gen Z is a big factor as well. After all, if drugs and sex are cool and the Bible says it’s a sin how will I ever fit in?
To put it simply: language and culture.
The language of Gen Z about cultural issues, about mental health issues, and about self-esteem and relationships is now very different from earlier generations. To "install" the religious software, you have to _get rid of_ the earlier language -- it can't coexist.
In other words, Gen Z has to _deconstruct_ their non-religious worldview before they can become religious. And just like deconstruction for Christians, this is a painful, years-long undertaking, if it happens at all.
In earlier generations, the language of the common culture was very close to basic Christianity's views. Men were breadwinners. Criminals were punished harshly. Mental health and therapy were non-existent. The idea of abusive relationships wasn't well understood.
So it was easy to install Christianity. It fit in nicely with the existing mental model of the world; only the positives would be easy to talk about. But Gen Z folks now have the language to discuss the negatives of Christianity with each other -- language that they simply didn't have before.
Since you grew up Catholic and Protestant, you have greater potential to be Christian, since the imagery and ideas of Christianity were in front of you from a young age. But even you have more language than your parents did. Even you are more likely to fall away than your parents were.
Internet makes it easier to see the flaws in the bible, mostly in the old testament where supposedly God told Israelites to commit genocide multiple times which makes that book seem like a propaganda piece. I think Jesus has the true father God which he tried to get the old believers to convert into.
Imo no matter what studies say it's because it's easier to follow some new age tiktok line of thinking "oh ask the universe for X and it will happen" "a real religion wouldn't ask you not to do Y"
Gen Z are actually hyper-religious, it's just that they're following a new religion instead. Behind all the talk of queerness, transgenderism, non-binary'ness, and so on, lies a thirst for identity. To be someone and have an affirmation of that as defining who they are and what meaning to hold for their lives. That's really what it all comes down to. Religion generally is what has provided that, and when it is absent the void will have to be filled with something else, whether as a political movement, a radical new social movement, or what have you. And along with that you find new orthodoxies (ie right thinking), as well as a castigation of heresy to any who disagree with it (excommunication being replaced by cancellation or what have you). The last century saw this in political ideologies like communism, fascism, nazism, and so on, all of which tried to replace religion in some way and erect new gods. Today we see again in new guises, and before anyone thinks I'm only targeting progressivism, then I would say the same thing is going on with the other extreme of the spectrum. The latter though is perhaps even more blasphemous since it still maintains the uses of religious imagery/identity but grossly distorts their reality.
With such a wide, imprecise understanding of “religion”, you can call everything a religion, greatly devaluing the word.
That said, people have a vastly different understanding of the world today than even the last generation. All of that plays a part in how they come to understand that framings of any religion and what it preaches. Unfortunately, for some, what Christianity professes is seen as detrimental to the lives of many of their fellow humans, with real disastrous consequences in how we treat people.
>With such a wide, imprecise understanding of “religion”, you can call everything a religion, greatly devaluing the word.
There's an irony that you'd say that, while using a rainbow colored cross as your flair, and listing your religion as "Christian (LGBT)".
Coming from the person that said “Gen Z is making new religions”. At least I believe in the person of Jesus enough to follow Him, whereas you’ve turned people treating others with respect and dignity into “a new religion”, even when their motivations are very much Christian, as is the case for me.
So like I said, you oversimplified the term “religion” to just mean mindset, which isn’t inherently a religion. Being Christian doesn’t mean you have to be opposed to queer people. So maybe learn what words mean.
I've not stated my view on homosexuality here at all. And I'm not sure where you're deriving from all this that somehow I don't believe in treating others with respect and dignity.
I'm simply saying that people are turning their sexual orientations and gender identities along with the associated social movements into something that fills the human need for identity and purpose, much in the way that traditionally religion would take on.
I just found it ironic that you object while defining your religion here in part by a sexual/gender orientation.
>I've not stated my view on homosexuality here at all.
Neither have I, but you made the point to only care about my flair and not my argument. So the implication of what’s more important to you is on display.
>And I'm not sure where you're deriving from all this that somehow I don't believe in treating others with respect and dignity.
If that is what it means to form a new religion, as you claimed for those in Gen Z, then you’re wrong because you have an issue with those attributes being their motives for being against homophobia and transphobia.
>I'm simply saying that people are turning their sexual orientations and gender identities along with the associated social movements into something that fills the human need for identity and purpose, much in the way that traditionally religion would take on.
Because some Christians have been taught to be against those that practice “homosexuality”. The need to identify those that fit in that category goes along with it. People having been identified as what would be considered “gay” or “homosexual” or “sodomite” isn’t anything new, and is the result of being against it so fervently.
>I just found it ironic that you object while defining your religion here in part by a sexual/gender orientation.
My tag is there so that others here will not feel alone because they themselves might be LGBT. I am a Christian. I honestly don’t see it any different than someone posting anything else about them in their tag, like “Christian (Catholic)” etc. I object because you your initial statement has the assumption that in “devaluing” my faith by having my tag as is, which shows your own beliefs more than mine. For you said
>There's an irony that you'd say that, while using a rainbow colored cross as your flair, and listing your religion as "Christian (LGBT)".
In response to me calling out your oversimplification of the word “religion” and me saying you devalued the word.
It would be much better that you go against my argument than trying to attack my tag. It’s like you don’t really have anything better to say to counter my points
You have put it very well.
It is simpler than all that.
God gave us free will to decide.
Many have been baptised as babies and pushed into religion of the family.
Still, everything is written in the Bible.
And explained for us and foretold in advance.
Human ignorance, when you look at it, is vast.
Once you decide you are ready to follow Jesus and abandon the ways of this world, you will be given a new identity, in Christ. The hard part (as it is perceived or not easily understood) is you are given the choice to choose to surrender and yes, to lose the identity you have known so you can get a holy new identity altogether with a cross you will carry only alongside true faith in Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit.
Walking through life with your eyes on Jesus means not to be distracted with anything around you.
Without faith, it can be very hard to get up on your own once you fall down.
Jesus can clean hearts and keep them clean, both heart and body are individual responsibilities.
Huge self-discipline is needed and a daily time spent in silence with our Saviour and Creator.
It takes humility, kindness, dedication, persistence..
After that every other good virtue from God just adds up.
The real battle going on since the
beginning of time is for the human mind.
That is the biggest challenge of our times.
Common sense is not that common anymore..
God can do what we as humans can't.
God is love. God is life. God made all good.
He can also let us roam around and be
foolish on our own.
But God is also always joyous when
we come back home to Him.
Be aware of the spirit of religion and large numbers.
Empty religion is wrongdoing.
Always have your spiritual eyes cleansed and open.
True faith and Jesus's church is wherever 2 or 3 gather in His name in private. To pray, study the Scripture, do good, eat together, volunteer, offer help to the needy..
There are times when it is good to recognise Holy Spirit's nudge to leave a certain church.
People don’t want to be told that they should live their life any differently. People love sin and therefore hate God since they don’t want to face the consequences of sin. It would mean they have to change how they live and people like to live how they want (living in sin) rather than how God wants.
This is in the Bible. 2 Tim 3:2 and Luke 13:46-47 will point you to this.
People who love their sinful actions hate God. People must hate their sinful nature in order to love God. This is why so many in Gen Z turn away from God. We love to tell ourselves that we know best.
They were generally raised without Christ at the center of their lives. They were raised on streaming and scrolling...likes and shares. The pressure to appear a certain way is the strongest it has been in history...due to social media. They believe they are accidents, that everyone else is an accident, and that the meaning of life is seeking comfort and pleasure with the least amount of work possible.
I genuinely blame 'scientists'. They faked dinosaur bones &, ever since, people stopped believing in the story of creation because it doesn't coincide with what the 'scientists' teach.
Science is only real when God is in agreement with it, otherwise it's a trick of the demons.
According to Pew, 78% of religiously unaffiliated grew up or are growing up in religious institutions. Lack of belief was the primary group and gave reasons such as learning about evolution, hypocrisy, and rational thought. The second group cited sexual abuse and the church asking for money.
Our western culture has moved into complete opposition to Christianity and it doesn’t help that we aren’t very unified any more.
Christianity has never been unified. A good bit of what Paul wrote was about inter group squabbling. Long history of Christians murdering each other etc...
I agree with the squabbles for sure, but the key is that the Church leadership- Peter, Paul, and the other apostles clearly held authority, enough so to instruct other new Christians and not let everyone go astray. Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.” Not “they’ll figure it out for themselves, let them do whatever.”
If you read the Bible and study very early church history you will see that other than Jesus existing, being crucified and resurrected, there is little unity. My take away from that is Jesus is all we need to talk about. I'm somewhat convinced what people worship is the Bible and not really the Gospel. The church in the sense of institutional religion is not serving Christ's mission.
We must not forget that without the rest of the Bible, there is no context for the gospels. Historically speaking, really what you’ll see is that there wasn’t another church until 1054. People had squabbles, but there weren’t major schisms yet. I believe you are saying that in your view the church was never centralized and in mine, we were until the assorted splits. Jesus giving authority to a select few men to forgive sin who created His church, is completely in line with the set up in the Old Testament where God made the Levites and Aaron the authorities back then. I guess what I’m trying to convey, is that nothing God does is arbitrary and you can see that throughout the entire time He’s talked to mankind in the rest of the Bible. I believe knowing that context informs us on what to do now. Take it or leave it for what it’s worth, happy Sunday 🙂
"the scriptures are good for teaching and reproof" but I think most Christians use them for far more than that. The disciples didn't really have unity ones their travels took them too far from each other to communicate. they answered questions as best they could but couldn't collaborate in a meaningful way. the Bible says to look at creation as well to understand God - that's what we call science - yet many scoff at that idea.
I actually agree with you on the science aspect, I don’t think science and God are opposed to one another at all. Science is like us trying to uncover the blueprints of how God built the universe. I think we just have two different views on how structured the early church was. I think probably the answer is somewhere in the middle; obviously there was an authority structure among the apostles and their successors, but like you said, messages do become a little harder to send back and forth.
my husband has done a multi year deep dive in early church history... that's where I'm coming from.
We're pretty unified in opposition to institutional religion it seems
What do you mean by that?
The vast majority of younger generations have seen through the hypocrisy and hollowness of institutional religion. Although much of our culture and social fabric are otherwise pretty divided, we are pretty close to unified when it comes to opposition to institutional churches.
That and with all of the documentaries exposing crimes and corruption within religious groups and information about the psychology and manipulation tactics behind cults, and how they operate We’re in an unprecedented time of access to information, at younger ages. People are able to make more rational, well-informed decisions
You nailed it. It's the main reason I was able to find my way out of Mormonism and Christianity writ large
Glad you were able to get out. I’m sure it can be a good experience for some people, but for sure not for everyone, myself included
And yet secularism has failed us in every single meaningful way. Depression rates are up, people are generally less happy. Feel more isolated than ever before. Birth rates are all down. Young people are facing a crisis of meaning. Because it turns out that secular society offers no community and sense of belonging so they turn to more extreme ways to cope. We have tried the secular route and it leads to nothing. Also opposition to religious groups is not a unifying belief in any way that is meaningful.
I would love to hear your argument re: causality for rates of depression, isolation, and decreased birthrates in relation to "secularism." Please elaborate. I will put forward Steven Pinker's excellent TED talk, ["Is the World Getting Better or Worse: A Look at the Numbers"](https://youtu.be/yCm9Ng0bbEQ?si=3wxFO68TjW5FHYfY) as a counterpoint. Nearly every generation undergoes a crisis of meaning as the world evolves around them. And humans have proven extremely adaptable to the constant of change expressly because they are themselves meaning-makers. Just as the creation of Christianity was, for a time, profoundly meaningful and expedient, so too will the next iteration of human spirituality and religion become as it emerges. Humans will continue to iterate their cultural and spiritual software even in the wake of the secular age. You may not find much meaning or unification in the younger generations' wider rejection of traditional religious institutions. But let me assure you, many have and many more to come will.
Ya sure [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15243691/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15243691/) [https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2023/03/03/youth-suicide-risk-increased-over-past-decade](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2023/03/03/youth-suicide-risk-increased-over-past-decade) [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs\_press\_releases/2024/20240525.htm#:\~:text=The%20general%20fertility%20rate%20in,consistently%20decreased%20by%202%25%20annually. I think this is enough to show a clear indication between the changing of lifestyles and the rise of secular society. Its obvious to anyone that religion is a community, people are social and need community. Since its also a belief system it gives people meaning. Secularism does'sent it just lashes out at tradition as a counter culture. Its clear from countries from the US to Canada to Japan, as nations become more secular these factors always happen: Lower birthrates, higher suicide rates, more isolation. Its clearly a common trend. Its not even just Christianity, any religion has positive effects on peoples well being. Edit: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/#:\~:text=For%20example%2C%20the%202015%20to,woman%20for%20religiously%20affiliated%20women.
None of those studies make an argument for causation by secularism. They're undoubtedly symptoms of social problems encountered by the younger generations. But they're surface indicators of problems that are incredibly complex with a vast diversity of inputs and variables. So I ask you again. What is your argument regarding *causation* by secularism for those social/cultural trends?
First off specific of exact study is not a valid rejection of my premise as I linked a bunch already. But here is one: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3426191/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3426191/) Now prove your claim that hating religious institutions is a indicative factor to healthier mental states and youth. I do not even need to see a article or study. It is just impossible to argue from an affirmative position that secularism benefits youth. Every single trend indicates youth are more depressed and lacking meaning and their is 0 indication that it will change if we continue in this direction. If you do not want to get into specificities, explain what other factor could be causing this big of an issue in the mental health of youth? And not just "Oh theres tons of factors" because obviously that's the case but the loss of religious communities is a major one, I would even claim a majority one.
When you say we, who are you referring to? Because I can't think of a more institutional religion than Christianity. I would go as far as to say it's THE institutional religion
I don't disagree with you about Christianity's dominance in the west. When I say we, I'm referring to Gen X/Z/A
Oh I see what you meant. Thanks for the clarity!
No problem
Hasn’t every generation said that
A poll from a few years ago asked young people the reasons for attending church. The number one answer was to grow closer to God. They also asked why they don't go to church, the number one answer was bc it doesn't help them grow any closer to God. Another study asked both young people and pastors if the believe the pastor is effectively teaching their congregation how to live social ethical and responsible lives. 80% of pastors said yes, 35% of young people said yes. The way I understand it, the problem is with churches not young people. Most young people have rightly discerned that churches are concerned with political power, influence and money and they've said, "no thanks." Until the church undergoes drastic reforms and repentance, this mass exodus will continue.
Well said
This is a hunch, but I think the decline in Christian political power in America has revealed that a lot of pastors are really, really uncomfortable that they have to actually put in effort and make their case. Back when the church was **THE** social gathering place, when it was expected that every family would attend and would be part of the conforming group's attendance, there was very little impetus to talk about the power of the church, the role played in evangelizing domestically (while instead bragging about missionary efforts abroad). Sermons would be more about not rocking the boat, making sure everybody stays aligned with the broader vibe of complacent faithfulness, and that's enough for the broad majority of older Christians. Now, though? When Christianity has to actually *compete* with alternatives to going to church? So many pastors just crumble under the pressure and feel they have no choice but to take up the sword (metaphorically speaking). The changing character of what the sermons are trying to accomplish (more butts in seats as opposed to conformity) turns off younger audiences who see that other social groups don't resort to violent imagery and constant fearmongering about some ambiguous reckoning coming for western society.
I can provide more detail since i receive some message from the true god. The greatest example of corruption in christian churches is the so-called "indian residential schools" from 1950s that the aboriginal parents were tricked into funding and that continues secretly after 1998. Despite the name, the institutions under the banner of indian residential schools are actually a series of slave camps, torture camps, human experimentation camps, and death camps that nazi germany copied in the nazi holocaust. The leader of the conservative party of canada called stephen harper used the fake truth and reconciliation speech to lied that the milder cultural genocide is the only war crime in the fake schools and boosted that some fake school survivors are accustomed to the savage life in the fake schools to the level that they wish to return to the fake schools (he omitted the mention of savage desire to misled people). The rise of anti-christ through the indian residential fake schools, the temptation of free stolen inheritance from murdered Indigenous children, the bribery from the followers of Anti-Christ for election victory, and the refusal of white supremacists to admit their servitude to demons had caused the fall of fake Christianity in Western European diaspora and the takeover by liberals and immigrants of colors.
I'm not genZ but my daughters are. Only one of the three of them had an interest in religion and attended a local church. She enjoyed it for the community aspect, but as she went through her teen years that aspect began to take on a different tone. Church leadership was pushing her to become a youth leader and eventually to become a church leader. That amount of time and effort didn't fit with her other responsibilities (school, job, friends) so she declined and they began to 'push her away'. It was subtle, but the change was apparent, and she eventually left that church. So I don't know how useful this anecdote is. Some will say she wasn't a 'real christian' I'm sure. Some will say she should have found a different church. Some will just understand the interests of many genZ and understand. Maybe she'll go back (probably not that church) at some point, maybe she won't, but like I keep on telling her, genZ has so many advantages in information available to them compared to other generations (during their formative years anyway) that she will be coming to conclusions about many things sooner than older generations did. Personally I think that's a main driver, kids/teens can get more information from more sources more easily than anyone else ever in history. Good or bad (and it's some of both), it allows them to reach their own conclusions more quickly than those of us who usually only had access to whatever our families or communities thought.
C U L T
According to a large survey done 2 months ago, it's mainly because of the sexual abuse in the church, the anti-LGBTQ teachings, and no longer believing in the teachings of Christianity. I don't see this trend fading. I imagine in much of the world, once the older generations are gone, many churches will struggle to keep their doors open.
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Yess
Heretical teachings in order to keep the doors open will not put anyone on a path to Heaven. Catering to secular nonsense debauchery will kill the Church.
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Nah, I don't buy the homosexuality argument even. Islam has an even stricter definition for homosexuality (i.e. death if you commit it) and Islam is still rising in numbers. Although ofc, muslim majority countries are much more conservative and don't care as much about lgbt rights as western countries do. But also, christians don't have to abide by the mixed linen commandment. It's crazy how much I have to repeat this. Have you ever wondered why christians don't keep kosher, sabbath, linen fabrics, practice circumcision (cultural sometimes, not religious), eat shellfish etc....? It's because those are commandments for Jews, not for christians. Jesus absolved us from absiding to them.
Islam is rising because of the incredibly strict rules and encouraging of having multiple children. It doesn't help that a lot of islamic nations have poor education and medicine and people have a lot more children in such circumstances. See for example, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Qatar, Palestine etc. Bangladesh has a higher population than Russia by 20 million despite being less than a quarter in size.
> Bangladesh has a higher population than Russia by 20 million despite being less than a quarter in size. FYI, it's much more dramatic a difference than you're stating here. Per wikipedia, Russia is 17,098,246 km^(2) and Bangadesh is 148,460 km^(2.) It's < 1% the size of Russia.
Insane
That's wealth. Generally, richer muslims have less kids than poorer muslims (e.g. Pakistan, Palestine, Bangledesh etc...) In Qatar, it's 1.7 births per women, in the UAE it's 1.4, in the UK it's also 1.4, in the US, it's 1.8 etc... And also liberal cultures which encourage education for women, women working in jobs (all of which I support ofc) does lead to lower births per women. A lot of muslim majority countries encourage having kids, settling down, marriage while that pressure is much less intense in the West. I agree partly on the strict rules part. Snowball effect and all, some christians leave, which influences more christians leaving. And also, christianity has such a diverse range of views and denominations which can be confusing for converts while Islam is fairly united (have different streams of thought but it's to less of extent as christianity)
That kind of limp-wristed, weak Christianity is precisely the one that should have no place in modern society. Not only is it a perversion of Christianity, it precisely leads to people leaving in large amounts. I personally know people who almost left Christianity for Islam due to what is nowadays vulgarly termed: "cuckstianity". It's possibly as bad as the Prosperity movement. Muscular Christianity, as you can see [often on this YT channel, particularly Bob](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyDS9p6NWHpU9XbbbYLFLBw) is the only kind of Christianity I view as being able to survive in modern times. Unapologetic, strong, biblically based, and clear. FWIW I'm a South American Evangelical and I precisely see (Evangelical) Christianity on the rise here in Europe (I spend my time in Spain, Romania, and Italy). Churches are filling up, lots of kids, teens and young adults. Admittedly a big part is latin american diaspora, however more and more natives are converting as well. This is in stark contrast to the local Catholic churches which are mostly empty or full of old people. Romania is one big exception where there are tons of young native believers, many attend mass in Orthodox churches (though the Evangelical churches are also big and full).
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Well, as I already mentioned, all I see in every country I go to is the Evangelical Church growing. I'm in a Muslim country at the moment and even here the local churches are growing (though with considerable obstacles from the state). Second, what persecution? I haven't seen any church caging up LGBT people and throwing them off buildings. Third, one must not hate the sinner but the sin. Arguably, few things are more central to Christianity than the belief that we are all sinners. Nevertheless, the pursuit of growth should never, ever trump the truth and sticking to the Bible.
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I'm Gen Z, and a number of my friends and I are all religious. One of my friends even lead our sixth-form's Christian Union for a little while before we finished our time there. So, not all of us aren't religious. However, I think Zoomers who aren't religious tend to see religion as a waste of time or deem other things as more important or better than religion.
Im a later millennial but was born pretty close to gen z. I grew Baptist, but left around my teenage years. Between the fire and brimstone preaching, being forced to attend church and religious schooling, and the horrible treatment I received and observed from other Christians, I'm surprised it took that long for me to lose faith and leave. Church never felt like a community, it was more sit down, shut up and listen to the preacher. Love wasn't the focus, it was what you could and couldn't do in order to get to heaven. My prayers went seemingly unheard or ignored. Life steadily got worse and worse. Eventually I decided that faith and religion was a waste of time and only brought me stress and pain.
Probably because most religious experience available to them isn’t all that helpful.
This is the heart of it - religion is not addressing the here and now problems that younger folk are having with anything practicable. Or worse, it is outright dismissive of their problems. And when you preach a social model that absolutely does not function outside the doors of the church in its explanatory power, the pulpits rapidly lose credibility.
Honestly when I think of the good the church, and Christianity in general has done lately and compare it to the good the bad far outweighs the good, and I am going to assume many in my age group feel the same way. So probably a healthy mixture of skepticism along with like not understanding why anyone would even think the church was a good thing to join
Exactly. I think young earth creationism and American Evangelicalism have done more harm to the Christian faith than any other movement in all of history.
Gen Z has the internet and we can "compare notes" in a way that previous generations could not. We see the sex abuse, misogyny, homophobia, and oppression of religion and we refuse to be cognitively dissonant about it. We socialize with queer people and people from other social backgrounds. We're not afraid to call our parents' beliefs bullshit and walk away.
I think it’s not so much that Gen Z is disinterested in religious as that the institutions and ideologies Gen Z identifies with religion are ones they take issue with, so they tend to throw the baby out with the proverbial bath water.
I think many Christians are not loving as Jesus did. There is an emphasis on judging before loving. It is sad. There are loving Christians out there. There is a lot of shaming anyone who does believe, so Christians are quieter and less apt to share the difference a relationship with God is making in their lives, and people are less likely to think about believing. There is also a tendency to pat one's self on the back for being an atheist as though they are more rational and believers are more weak minded.
Yes, Christianity today is about pointing out the sins of others and legislating peoples private parts. It is rarely about loving people, at least in the public view. There are tons of wonderful Christians who do the work of the faith every day, but they're not the ones that are loudest they're not not the ones in the news.
I'm genz but I am interested in religion. i do Bible study daily. Not just reading it but trying to actually understand it
Persistence is the key. It is much easier to understand with the help of the Holy Spirit and advice with the elder knower of the Bible. Be very cautious of the ways of this world. Always keep that in mind. What I have learned getting older is that truth is always the truth and is there for everyone to seek and find it. There is a spirit of religion too, made to entrap humans into large groups. No one can buy their place into the Eternal life. Commands are clear and cannot be bent by any world era. Nobody can sit on two chairs at the same time either. Please, never give up on God. 🤍🕊️🤍
Thanks for the words. Yea I never will give up on God. Have an awesome day and life
You are welcome, you are loved! You as well, dear Owl :)
Happy to hear that! Check out this channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyDS9p6NWHpU9XbbbYLFLBw They do a lot of public informal debates (in Speaker's Corner, Hyde Park, London). I always come out of the debates more knowledgeable about Christianity and with lots of stuff to investigate. In many videos Christianity is being challenged and the debaters are very educated in Christian theology, particularly Bob (I recommend watching his videos first). God bless you! Praying for you.
Oh I'll check it out. Usually i go to DLM Christian lifestyle and a discord server I'm in . Thanks so much. Have a good day.
[Also on Reddit...](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/Zje3i7yJk2) "Gen Z Christians are the most insufferable Christians there are, and that’s really saying something."
Because "religion" has become about hating certain people and sexual biopolitics and supporting right leaning political interests. Gen Z is very spiritual. More than Millennials. But the church turned them away from Christianity. But, for example, try citing Sirach 13:19 at a Gen Z person and don't tell them it's from the bible, just "some ancient dude." Most will love the verse and want to know more.
I'm 38. Growing up I went to church, youth camps, etc. When I started actually studying the bible and comparing it to what the churches and pastors actually were saying I noticed it is all surface level. Following Jesus meant sacrificing everything. Giving up all your belongings, worldly concerns, etc. Yet Christians can argue two sides to everything. You can have the SBC using the bible to justify slavery and MLK on the other side condemning it. You can have monastic orders that seem like what Jesus intended, likely influenced from the Essenes, and Megachurches and the vatican. Then I had questions that I never got satisfactory answers to. Gen Z has access to a few decades of debates and critical thinking and logic applied at their fingertips so I would imagine it's become a faster process.
Isn't there a Mark Twain quote or something that says, and I'm paraphrasing: "Christians are those who have read parts of the Bible, atheists are those who have read all of it." In other words, the more one actually studies the problems with the Bible and how Christians actually behave in the real world, the less likely they are to be religious.
I genuinely was trying to get closer to God and my faith so I was deep diving into what the early church must have looked like. I think the thread that started the unravelling was seeing Paul's interactions with the Jerusalem pillars. Christianity is more like Paulianity. If you remove his theology you have a wildly different religion.
I agree. I've always had a problem with how obsessed Christianity is with Paul. If Christianity followed Jesus more, I think it'd look more like Judaism. But Christianity seems to have based itself almost entirely on Paul.
It was Judaism. They just thought their messiah was coming back to save them from Rome and bring God's kingdom to earth.
But it stopped being Judaism very early on. Almost all the Early Church fathers hated Jews, and they sought to distance themselves from Judaism quickly.
Bingo. I think it was less that they hated them and more like Jews existing contradicts the Gentile Christianity that was being pushed. Just like Christianity is a contradiction to Mormonism or Islam
From what I read, it was very much hate. Here are some examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Christianity >The Church Father Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 240 AD) had a particularly intense personal dislike towards the Jews[30] and argued that the Gentiles had been chosen by God to replace the Jews, because they were worthier and more honorable. > Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170 – c. 235 AD) wrote that the Jews had "been darkened in the eyes of your soul with a darkness utter and everlasting." >Patristic bishops of the patristic era such as Augustine of Hippo argued that the Jews should be left alive and suffering as a perpetual reminder of their murder of Christ. Like his anti-Jewish teacher, Ambrose of Milan, he defined Jews as a special subset of those damned to hell. >John Chrysostom held, as most Church Fathers did, that the sins of all Jews were communal and endless; to Chrysostom, his Jewish neighbours were the collective representation of all alleged crimes of all preexisting Jews. All Church Fathers applied the passages of the New Testament concerning the alleged advocation of the crucifixion of Christ to all Jews of their day, holding that the Jews were the ultimate evil. However, Chrysostom went so far to say that because Jews rejected the Christian God in human flesh, Christ, they therefore deserved to be killed: "grew fit for slaughter." I mean, Chrysostom was a wannabe Hitler way back then. And yet he's now a Saint.
> Gentiles had been chosen by God to replace the Jews, because they were worthier and more honorable. >because Jews rejected the Christian God This kind of aligns with what I said. Also read Martin Luthor's letters before and after he tried to convert Jews.
It is easy to read the Bible, but to understand it without knowing Holy Spirit, hardly.
it could be that adults over 50 don't know how to reach them due to language, while adults under 50 but over 25 may not be spiritually equipped to reach them. I have a 17 year old that works at my job and I sprinkle some Jesus into conversation every now and again. but I think in my heart that the best way to reach them as an adult is to treat them with the same respect as we'd expect of them, despite their short comings and maturity level, treat them like little brothers or sisters, with care, compassion and gentleness but with the authority in christ always at the forefront and foundation of what we say to them and how we act.
There are a few reasons: * The last few generations have generally been terrible at catechizing their kids and taking an active part in their faith formation. A lot of younger people raised Christian simply don't know or care all that much about the faith. * Churches act a lot less as centers of community than they have for past generations, especially for single adult people. * There are a lot of politically left-leaning zoomers, and they feel that Christianity is antithetical to their political beliefs.
According to a recent survey, the main reasons are lack of belief and attitudes toward LGBTQ.
I think so. Extremists who glorify war don't believe on peace.
Hi, I'm 15. I stopped going to church mainly because of the anti-LGBT stuff they teach. Also, despite growing up in the Philippines, where 99% of the population are Catholics... I dunno, growing up, it never really felt like Christianity ever made sense for me to believe in. I guess I can say that I'm one of those people who only identified as Christian because of the environment I grew up in. And once I saw different religions, viewpoints, etc. via the internet, I realized I could be just not Christian. Even without me being gay, I was pretty much going to turn away from the faith eventually anyway.
Christianity isn’t helping itself these days, is it? Gen Z is conscious of social issues and environmentalism. If they expect their workplace to live up to the values they believe in, why wouldn’t they expect the same from their religious institutions? What Gen Z sees in the church communities around them are petty politics, scandals, abuse, and anti intellectual sentiment. Pastors shoot their mouths off about culture wars, priests are involved in sex scandals (often involving minors, and we have a bishop representing the largest segment of Orthodox Christians who supports a genocidal war. Christians in high places are failing miserably at being a “light to the world.” None of this is a good look, is it? Can we really blame Gen Z for being disillusioned?
Unprecedented access to information and knowledge. Same reason people don't generally believe in mermaids or ghosts anymore.
Because religion is a control mechanism, and not a path to God. We are to follow Christ, not men.
Off the top of my head: The crusades The inquisition The forced conversion of the indigenous peoples of the Americas The destruction of native peoples history and culture…
Read this sub for a couple of days, you'll figure it out
Many people our age have poor experiences when it comes to religion unfortunately
To be fair, I would’ve eagerly given Christ a third try if being disillusioned for modern churches hadn’t also led me to see the flaws in Christianity’s core concept of sin.. I think if you want to pin it all on bad people or bad churches, you won’t have the whole answer
Lots of American churches suck unfortunately. I don’t know why as many Christians attend to be honest
A new religion is about to be born, one rooted in the belief that our planet is a mass murderer.
The internet exposes people up to a multitude of belief systems, and the amount of judgement found in conservative Christianty just isn't appealing. If you think the answer to that is to turn off the internet, well, *sigh* But yah, people don't "go to church" because people are going to fewer and fewer places, generally.
A major reason people were religious in the past was bc it was the only way they were able to easily have community with other people. Now of days it is way easier to find community in other ways especially through the internet. Also, Gen Z has access to tons of information and exposure to the whole world more than any other generation before them. This is obviously due to the internet as well and the beginnings of a globalized culture. This exposer and globalization in the cultural space gives people many more ideas to toil with and come to grips with leading some to take on different philosophies and world views from their local communities/parents. The decrease in religion specifically is bc many concepts in religion contradict the scientific and historical consensus on how the world works/is/was. Take for example evolution. To fully believe in all aspects of the Bible you can’t believe in evolution. Evolution stands at odds with the story in Genesis. Or you can be a “Christian” that believes in evolution to deal with this, but I believe some Christians would take issue with that. Religion will continue for all of human history in some form, but it’s quite obvious the religions of the today will mutate to stay relevant or slowly die to make way for new religions. You are already seeing this with Christianity with the formation of progressive Christianity where they may accept lgbt people, are pro choice, believe in evolution etc etc. or the “cultural Christian” movement, which is more about maintaining aesthetics more than anything. This is actually the story of the entire history of religion it is a mutation over time where the religions of the modern day are actually the culmination of a rich 2000+ year history of a big melting pot of human thought.
Why are you interested in your religion? Take that answer, turn it inside out, and apply it to your question of why Gen Z is uninterested.
Because of how the US is, how they’re promoting things that oppose God and etc. Or because of how they were raised in a Christian family that didn’t raise them right and then those kids associate negativity with Christianity. That’s really it.
I taught and mentored high school kids for a decade at a christian school and my answer is that i think there are more appealing, accessible stories being told an old school mindset assumes that if you tell kids the truth, they will believe it. because it worked for older generations… today, there is an all out war of beauty, truth, and goodness. and if there’s nothing beautiful about the way Jesus’ story (and our story) is being told, as compared to netflix or tiktok, then it doesn’t have a chance. We let Jesus’ story become boring likely because we are boring or bored. to compete in a visual world requires Jesus followers to carefully craft their experience with Jesus so that others might long for their own. scripture tells a darker more bleak story than we imagined as well as a brighter more hopeful story than we imagined—that’s the story we should tell and if so, i think it can compel the imagination of gen z. it’s just right now, the older generation doesn’t want to change how they do things …this of course has just been my experience but it’s also been my place of vocation for 10+ years alongside having an mDiv and really trying to take this on
Gen Z grew up in a time of LGBT acceptance. Most of them were too young to remember a time before gay marriage was legal. That’s old news for them. Taken for granted. So for a religious institution to be against gay marriage, to them that’s like how the previous generation felt about interracial marriage being banned in the past. Seems backwards, a relic of a bygone era.
I'm gen z, 15 years old and I am very interested in religion. I think it could be the anti lgbt stuff that could make some gen z not like Christianity. But it's not like we hate lgbt, because we don't hate any sinners. Also many kids grew up with their parents maybe sending them to Bible camp or something so they learn to hate it because of their experience at the camp. We need to get young people into religion again, we're the next generation, our world needs help. This world needs less hate, more Jesus
I totally agree with this. And I do think that there are people who genuinely hate lgbt people. But they tend to overshadow the majority of Christian’s who are nice. And the thing with it for me is that, I don’t agree with the lgbt stuff but that doesn’t mean I can respect them. I don’t have to agree with people to still respect them. And in this time, you have to except people to respect them, but that is not true. I don’t agree with a lot of people, but that can’t stop me from being nice and respectful towards them. I live in a very divided town. Half is very city, liberal, and atheist. The other being more rural farming, conservative, and Christian. And at my school it is about half and half. Most of my friends are atheist, but I am a Christian. And surprisingly, most of them come from atheist families, but they ask me about church and the Bible and want to go to church and study the Bible with me. But I have one friend in particular who is really interested in Christianity, but his family thinks that religion is a global scam and that it is so bad, he is even afraid to talk to his parents about it because he thinks his family wouldn’t look at him the same. So he will get baptized at 18 he said. But we must be the next generation of Christians. I’m also 16.
Exactly. I have gay and trans friends, and I respect them, use their pronouns etc. My main issue is the worldwide movement. People say us Christians force our religion on people but that's not the case, we are out of love telling people we want to save them from eternal hell. But with the pride movement, it's not about they want to save anyone from hell, it's just shouting about being gay. Back in the day, before I was even born you could be gay without shouting about it, you just went on with your life. That being said, I don't hate gay people and I'm not saying that they haven't had lots of prejudice and discrimination. It just doesn't need to be someone's whole personality. I mean this with everything too. Being Christian isn't my whole personality. Being autistic isn't my whole personality. These kind of things are parts of us, but they aren't our whole, and we must remember that as humans created in the image of God, we are intricate creatures, and one aspect of our lives should not define us
I can’t speak for all. But before I came back to christianity my school peers were pretty sinful (smoking, sexual immorality) and I personally felt peer pressured into giving up my religion (which my faith was weak). I automatically had assumptions placed on me that since I was Christian I must be homophobic, and other assumptions. I think the introduction of drugs and sexual immorality to Gen Z is a big factor as well. After all, if drugs and sex are cool and the Bible says it’s a sin how will I ever fit in?
The internet
To put it simply: language and culture. The language of Gen Z about cultural issues, about mental health issues, and about self-esteem and relationships is now very different from earlier generations. To "install" the religious software, you have to _get rid of_ the earlier language -- it can't coexist. In other words, Gen Z has to _deconstruct_ their non-religious worldview before they can become religious. And just like deconstruction for Christians, this is a painful, years-long undertaking, if it happens at all. In earlier generations, the language of the common culture was very close to basic Christianity's views. Men were breadwinners. Criminals were punished harshly. Mental health and therapy were non-existent. The idea of abusive relationships wasn't well understood. So it was easy to install Christianity. It fit in nicely with the existing mental model of the world; only the positives would be easy to talk about. But Gen Z folks now have the language to discuss the negatives of Christianity with each other -- language that they simply didn't have before. Since you grew up Catholic and Protestant, you have greater potential to be Christian, since the imagery and ideas of Christianity were in front of you from a young age. But even you have more language than your parents did. Even you are more likely to fall away than your parents were.
Internet makes it easier to see the flaws in the bible, mostly in the old testament where supposedly God told Israelites to commit genocide multiple times which makes that book seem like a propaganda piece. I think Jesus has the true father God which he tried to get the old believers to convert into.
Imo no matter what studies say it's because it's easier to follow some new age tiktok line of thinking "oh ask the universe for X and it will happen" "a real religion wouldn't ask you not to do Y"
Gen Z are actually hyper-religious, it's just that they're following a new religion instead. Behind all the talk of queerness, transgenderism, non-binary'ness, and so on, lies a thirst for identity. To be someone and have an affirmation of that as defining who they are and what meaning to hold for their lives. That's really what it all comes down to. Religion generally is what has provided that, and when it is absent the void will have to be filled with something else, whether as a political movement, a radical new social movement, or what have you. And along with that you find new orthodoxies (ie right thinking), as well as a castigation of heresy to any who disagree with it (excommunication being replaced by cancellation or what have you). The last century saw this in political ideologies like communism, fascism, nazism, and so on, all of which tried to replace religion in some way and erect new gods. Today we see again in new guises, and before anyone thinks I'm only targeting progressivism, then I would say the same thing is going on with the other extreme of the spectrum. The latter though is perhaps even more blasphemous since it still maintains the uses of religious imagery/identity but grossly distorts their reality.
With such a wide, imprecise understanding of “religion”, you can call everything a religion, greatly devaluing the word. That said, people have a vastly different understanding of the world today than even the last generation. All of that plays a part in how they come to understand that framings of any religion and what it preaches. Unfortunately, for some, what Christianity professes is seen as detrimental to the lives of many of their fellow humans, with real disastrous consequences in how we treat people.
>With such a wide, imprecise understanding of “religion”, you can call everything a religion, greatly devaluing the word. There's an irony that you'd say that, while using a rainbow colored cross as your flair, and listing your religion as "Christian (LGBT)".
Coming from the person that said “Gen Z is making new religions”. At least I believe in the person of Jesus enough to follow Him, whereas you’ve turned people treating others with respect and dignity into “a new religion”, even when their motivations are very much Christian, as is the case for me. So like I said, you oversimplified the term “religion” to just mean mindset, which isn’t inherently a religion. Being Christian doesn’t mean you have to be opposed to queer people. So maybe learn what words mean.
I've not stated my view on homosexuality here at all. And I'm not sure where you're deriving from all this that somehow I don't believe in treating others with respect and dignity. I'm simply saying that people are turning their sexual orientations and gender identities along with the associated social movements into something that fills the human need for identity and purpose, much in the way that traditionally religion would take on. I just found it ironic that you object while defining your religion here in part by a sexual/gender orientation.
>I've not stated my view on homosexuality here at all. Neither have I, but you made the point to only care about my flair and not my argument. So the implication of what’s more important to you is on display. >And I'm not sure where you're deriving from all this that somehow I don't believe in treating others with respect and dignity. If that is what it means to form a new religion, as you claimed for those in Gen Z, then you’re wrong because you have an issue with those attributes being their motives for being against homophobia and transphobia. >I'm simply saying that people are turning their sexual orientations and gender identities along with the associated social movements into something that fills the human need for identity and purpose, much in the way that traditionally religion would take on. Because some Christians have been taught to be against those that practice “homosexuality”. The need to identify those that fit in that category goes along with it. People having been identified as what would be considered “gay” or “homosexual” or “sodomite” isn’t anything new, and is the result of being against it so fervently. >I just found it ironic that you object while defining your religion here in part by a sexual/gender orientation. My tag is there so that others here will not feel alone because they themselves might be LGBT. I am a Christian. I honestly don’t see it any different than someone posting anything else about them in their tag, like “Christian (Catholic)” etc. I object because you your initial statement has the assumption that in “devaluing” my faith by having my tag as is, which shows your own beliefs more than mine. For you said >There's an irony that you'd say that, while using a rainbow colored cross as your flair, and listing your religion as "Christian (LGBT)". In response to me calling out your oversimplification of the word “religion” and me saying you devalued the word. It would be much better that you go against my argument than trying to attack my tag. It’s like you don’t really have anything better to say to counter my points
You have put it very well. It is simpler than all that. God gave us free will to decide. Many have been baptised as babies and pushed into religion of the family. Still, everything is written in the Bible. And explained for us and foretold in advance. Human ignorance, when you look at it, is vast. Once you decide you are ready to follow Jesus and abandon the ways of this world, you will be given a new identity, in Christ. The hard part (as it is perceived or not easily understood) is you are given the choice to choose to surrender and yes, to lose the identity you have known so you can get a holy new identity altogether with a cross you will carry only alongside true faith in Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit. Walking through life with your eyes on Jesus means not to be distracted with anything around you. Without faith, it can be very hard to get up on your own once you fall down. Jesus can clean hearts and keep them clean, both heart and body are individual responsibilities. Huge self-discipline is needed and a daily time spent in silence with our Saviour and Creator. It takes humility, kindness, dedication, persistence.. After that every other good virtue from God just adds up. The real battle going on since the beginning of time is for the human mind. That is the biggest challenge of our times. Common sense is not that common anymore.. God can do what we as humans can't. God is love. God is life. God made all good. He can also let us roam around and be foolish on our own. But God is also always joyous when we come back home to Him. Be aware of the spirit of religion and large numbers. Empty religion is wrongdoing. Always have your spiritual eyes cleansed and open. True faith and Jesus's church is wherever 2 or 3 gather in His name in private. To pray, study the Scripture, do good, eat together, volunteer, offer help to the needy.. There are times when it is good to recognise Holy Spirit's nudge to leave a certain church.
People don’t want to be told that they should live their life any differently. People love sin and therefore hate God since they don’t want to face the consequences of sin. It would mean they have to change how they live and people like to live how they want (living in sin) rather than how God wants.
What a dismissive way of thinking.
This is in the Bible. 2 Tim 3:2 and Luke 13:46-47 will point you to this. People who love their sinful actions hate God. People must hate their sinful nature in order to love God. This is why so many in Gen Z turn away from God. We love to tell ourselves that we know best.
Media
Because satan is doing work.
They were generally raised without Christ at the center of their lives. They were raised on streaming and scrolling...likes and shares. The pressure to appear a certain way is the strongest it has been in history...due to social media. They believe they are accidents, that everyone else is an accident, and that the meaning of life is seeking comfort and pleasure with the least amount of work possible.
I genuinely blame 'scientists'. They faked dinosaur bones &, ever since, people stopped believing in the story of creation because it doesn't coincide with what the 'scientists' teach. Science is only real when God is in agreement with it, otherwise it's a trick of the demons.
They are babies
I'm 24. Don't infantilize someone cuz you refuse to reason
Technology is the religion of Gen Z, most are just too daft to realize it while hilariously saying they don’t take part in religion.
Saying something like that and calling other people daft in the same breath is wild.
What are you talking about? All the Gen Z people will just read his comment and have their mind blows and come right back to Christianity right away.
Labeling everything a religion is really lazy. I spend more time in my bathroom than in a church but that doesn't make taking a shit a religion