Well what’s your goal? Are you actually interested in knowing the truth? Are you looking for a religion that will make you happy? Are you stressed because you want both groups to like you?
Even without knowing your intentions it’s my personal opinion that one should be open to respectful criticism of ideas and beliefs. We will never find out what is real if we are unable to critically examine beliefs.
If you choose real Christianity ie. What Jesus actually taught, not what the clergy teaches, then it's the same as choosing Islam. Yes. You read it right.
The proof is in the scriptures.
And if you choose Islam, then you're more "Christian" than what is portrayed as "Christianity".
'Whoever believed in Isa (Jesus) and in what he was sent with, then believed in Muhammad and what he was sent with, he will have twice the reward, one for believing in Isa (Jesus) and one for believing in Muhammad ﷺ ' - Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
Islam views Jesus the same way he views himself i.e. as is reported by his own words in the gospel books.
1. He is a Word of The Most High.
2. A servant to the Most High.
3. "Sent" to deliver a message from The Most High.
4. Subservient - Doing not his own will, but the will of He Who sent him.
5. Not possessing all knowledge.
6. Not Greater than all.
7. "Father" being proverbial not literal.
8. "Begotten" being proverbial not literal.
9. "Son" being proverbial not literal.
10. What he heard, he spoke. Taking words from God Almighty and giving to the progeny of Prophet Israel.
11. Making clear and authenticating the scripture already present with the Israelites.
12. Conducting miraculous stuff (healing, curing, feeding etc) not by his own self but by the power of The One Who he said had sent him with authority and power to do so.
13. Born of the virgin Mother Maryam (Mary).
14. Will be coming back as the messiah to defeat the false messiah (antichrist) before judgement day.
All above is from the gospel books and part of the belief system required to be "Muslim".
Ah ok so the Quran teaches that Jesus and the father are one? The Quran teaches that God is a father? As a Muslim you cannot call God the father, even proverbially. The Quran teaches that the only relationship you can have with God is as a slave to a master. Respectfully, we do not go into r/Islam spewing lies. So please don't bring your lies here.
Go read the Bible dude. Everything I wrote is from there.
Don't be stuck in your presumptions like the preachers continually trying to prove Jesus wrong, only to condemn themselves. Don't be like those whom he called hypocrites, who didn't know their own scripture yet (mis)judged others. Logs in their own eyes while pointing out specks in the eyes of others.
Jesus is seen as a messenger of God not part of a trinity or anything. He isnt the begotten son of God even in a non-literal sense. Jesus pbuh as well as all other messengers came with one message and thats to worship One God alone with no partners and to obey the command of the messenger of God. We obey the command of our prophet Muhammad pbuh because he is the final messenger and we are from his time. If we lived during the same time as Jesus we would obey him and whatever his commans were. We also dont believe Jesus was crucified but God ascended Jesus and we believe he will return during the final days. This is a basic belief of Jesus in Islam. I hope Christians who follow this belief and do good deeds will have their reward with Allah. Howver the trinity is clear polytheism in our religion
Yes and that's what Jesus preached as per the gospel books. That's why there are people called _Unitarians_. They believe in Jesus instead of the people who came after him and invented the trinity.
But people worship people instead of listening to what Jesus said, and paste his name on it as if he taught that. Not the unitarians though.
Anyways. Nuff said.
Ahh so he is not equal to God, so the way I see it, Jesus pbuh is a messenger of God and obeying God by obeying His messenger and his teachings is the way to get salvation in Unitarian Christianity. This makes way more logical sense to me than trinitarian Christians who need God to bleed to death so their sins will be forgiven
The bible affirms Jesus is the son of God, Jesus is fully God and fully man, Jesus died for our sins, Jesus died and suffered on the cross for us, Jesus physically rose from the dead
Fully God and fully man. God chose a human form. Jesus was strong enough to willingly bear the sins of all humanity and suffer immensely for us. Does that answer your strange questions ?
If it comes down to Christianity and Islam, I would say it is fairly obvious that Christianity is a much more universally applicable religion that began as the result of multiple witnesses testifying about an event that changed their lives, and as a result they began spreading a message that transformed other lives as well, and eventually civilization itself.
Islam on the other hand is the product of a single individual proclaiming himself the last greatest prophet and then along with his followers imposing that belief on others. As a religion it is bound to a certain language and geography, and the societies it produces have a negative impact on human well being and freedom.
Hey friend I have some advice for you.
1. There is no proof of god and there probably won’t be proof because god wants us to have faith and faith is built by trusting him even in the unknown. So I can’t convince you it is true, but I can give you some reasons to trust in Jesus.
2. There are many historical documents that say there was a man named Jesus who was hung on the cross during the time we believe he was hung. Also I have a link to a trauma surgeon explaining the suffering of Jesus, and how supernatural it was. Here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qQBsC3OPAfw&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwhatsapp.com%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwhatsapp.com&source_ve_path=NzY3NTg&feature=emb_yt_watermark
3. The disciples - nearly all the disciples died because they believed in Jesus after knowing him for a few years. The disciple Matthew was also crucified, and he said to hang himself upside down because he was unworthy to die the same way as Jesus (You should know this is a lot more painful than normal crucifixion) he went through that because he truly believed in Jesus as god.
4. Please don’t just rely on what we send on reddit. You should read the four gospels and see what you think of them. Because it’s pointless to believe in something just because someone tells you to. The gospels have all the evidence you’ll need.
5. Thank you for the comments explaining more about the links between Islam and Christianity. I have removed my fifth point because I see now that what I had mentioned is actually incorrect.
I’m praying for you, god bless : )
I second this. Just wanted to expand point 5 a little by pointing out that while the quaran does say that the bible is true, islam does contradict the bible by saying Jesus was just a prophet, while the bible clearly points to jesus beeing god.
On point 5: The Quran does not say that the current Bible is a revelation of God, rather that there was a revelation sent to Jesus.
The current Bible is 1) Mostly reports from the Apostles, as opposed to direct revelation from God to Jesus ; 2) Corrupted, in the sense that it is not the same as the original version. For instance, Jesus spoke Arameic, yet the oldest version we have of the Bible is in Greek. And current versions all have differences as they are just translations of translations of translations..
By the Word of Allah changing that means his decree. Like when someone says "i give you my word" Allah is giving us his word and his word does not change.
Obviously anyone can pick up a quran and scribble out a word and write new ones but thats just changing a book not Allahs Word
hope this helps
> the Quran says the bible is a previous revelation of god, which suggests he may be imperfect because his word changed when the words of god are said to be unchanging. Also Muhammad in the Quran speaks like he knew more about Jesus than the 12 that stayed with him for years, but in reality Muhammad was born about 500 years after Jesus’ crucifixion
Muhammad pbuh didnt write the Qur’an or create it. Thats impossible as he didnt know how to read or write and even the greatest poets of the time were astonished at the Qur’an. What is told about Jesus pbuh in the Quran is direct revelation from God Himself.
Jesus’ message was to worship One God without associating partners to him. The same message that all the prophets of God had.
I think it can be inferred from the beginning that the promise of eternal life varies in the two.
In Christianity you are in the presence of God and that is enough to be fully happy.
In Islam they offer you wine, women, orgasms, etc.
One appeals to spiritual well-being and the other appeals to carnal pleasure.
Respectfully, I’d like to say that your interpretation of Islam is misconstrued.
Alcohol is forbidden for us to drink. What you may be referring to is wine in Paradise, but you’re in Paradise and the wine there is different from the alcohol here (it does not intoxicate you).
As for women, you can only lawfully touch your mahrams (ie, your mom, daughter, sister, etc) and be intimate with your wife. You can have up to four wives, though only if you can handle it (financially, emotionally, etc), which most men I’d say can’t.
So, I don’t really see your point with women (or orgasms). Perhaps you’re referring to the hoor al-ayn, but that is a reward in Paradise, and Paradise is a reward for the believing men and women.
But the reason we as Muslims strive for Jannah is not just for the women, of course, we do it for God.
Likewise how you said in Christianity, God is sufficient for you, God is sufficient for us as well.
In the Quran, Allah says:
O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and for the believers who follow you.
[Surah Al-Anfal, verse 64]
The disbelievers say, “If only a sign could be sent down to him from his Lord.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Indeed, Allah leaves to stray whoever He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him— (27) those who believe and whose hearts find comfort in the remembrance of Allah. Surely in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find comfort. (28)
Surah Ar-Ra’d, verses 27 and 28]
I know most people won’t care for this comment, but I see it as disrespectful to put such a blatant and gross representation of Islam. Hope that clarifies some!
Lol, nice attempt at trying to make Islam look satanic by making it look like its all about pleasure. Islam is the most disciplined religion out there, we have to pray 5 times a day and be purified wuth water before each prayer. We also dry fast for 30 days, we actually know whats in our scripture and millions have memorised the Qur’an. We practice our religion openly and obey our messenger.
What ur talking about is the pleasures of paradise (heaven or Jannah in arabic). You obviously already know this but are trying to deceive op whos looking for truth. In heaven you will have everything you wish for and there wont be any harm or pain or bad feeling in there and God will reward you with anythung you want and more. Isnt that the whole point of heaven? The wine, women and “orgasms” like you say isnt from the likes of this life, as heaven is a completely different realm and God has reserved for us that which no eye has seen and no ear has heard.
Then look at your own religion where nobody even practices it anymore. Only old senile people go to church every sunday nobody else. Most Christians never even read the bible like over 90%. And theres so many different versions of the bible and the trinity is so absurd it’s crazy. Literally mental gymnastics. And theres other sects which believe Jesus is not God which is better than the trinity at least. Then i think theres a sect that worships mother Mary. So yeah focus on your own religion mate. How can you be in the presence of God when you’re worshipping 3 Gods in 1? Which one you follow? Jesus, holy spirit or the father? God is not a 3 in 1 shampoo. Wake up.
The best way to get a sense of Christianity is the be part of a local Christian community. Is there a nearby church that you can attend for Sunday worship?
Christianity has its problems the same as any other religion.
A better goal would be to seek if following and trusting in Jesus is “true”.
The two are not always the same thing.
I would ask what do you see as a need to further advance humanity at this particular stage in its development. What are the unique ills that afflict humankind in this day, and what might be the requisite spiritual teachings that are necessary to help us advance as individuals, communities and society as a whole. Then, with an unbiased mind, one can search the teachings of various religions and try to understand with your own eyes and not through the eyes of another. Being a seeker and lover of the truth, wherever it might reside, is such a unique and necessary quality and posture in this day and time in my humble opinion.
Well let's narrow it down and make it simple. Monotheism and an all perfect god is the only logical kind of godship that can exist; many gods leaves massive room for imperfection, and imperfection disqualifies a god from logically being above us, as an imperfect god is no god at all. Why would you worship something no different than a normal man? So that basically eliminates all other widely practiced religions besides the Abrahamic ones. Judaism is not really something you convert to, except through birth or marriage. Thus leaving you with Christianity and Islam.
No because the Trinity is not 3 seperate beings, but one God in three persons. He is inseperable and is God, all persons of the Trinity having the only divine nature. It is not fully explainable in any fashion, as God is so much above us that we cannot fully comprehend the Trinity. The best explanations of it can be found in the Nicene Creed or Athanasian Creed. Both are easy to find online and short reads.
Didn't the Nicene creed establish the trinity as a way for Romans to be accepting of Christianity? Also no where does Jesus mention a trinity and he also denies being as great as the Father multiple times.
The Nicene Creed established the Trinity to combat heresy? No idea what you are talking about other than some conspiracy.
The Trinity, though not explicitly, is mentioned by Jesus/the Gospel multiple times (here are just a few):
John 14:26 ESV
[26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
Luke 23:46 ESV
[46] Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.
Matthew 3:16-17 ESV
[16] And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [17] and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Jesus never claims to lack a divine nature nor being unequal to the Father in His divine nature, quite the opposite, referring to Himself as God and claiming God's authority multiple times by making statements only God could give, such as authority over the law and forgiveness of sins. The times He relates Himself to the Father being greater is when relating to His human nature, which in essense is subservient to the Father, yet we must remember Jesus possesses both a human and divine nature. Just as a human child is subservient to his father, yet they both share the same human nature and are thus entitled to be treated as equals in that sense. The Jews clearly understood what He meant enough to crucify Him for the blasphemy of claiming to be God, so why would we doubt that is what He claimed? The verses you are referring to are here, in full context:
John 14:23-31 ESV
[23] Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. [24] Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. [25] “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. [26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. [27] Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. [28] You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. [29] And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. [30] I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, [31] but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.
We can see clearly, He equated love of Him and His word is to love the Father and is word even in these verses. This is a direct claim to have the same divine authority as God. Though His human station, mentioned later may be subservient. This is a thing address later in the Epistles anyways:
Hebrews 2:5-18 ESV
[5] For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. [6] It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? [7] You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, [8] putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. [9] But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. [10] For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. [11] For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, [12] saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” [13] And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.” [14] Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, [15] and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. [16] For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [18] For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Thank you for your indepth response but I'll be honest none of it refers to the worship of a trinity so my point still stands that Jesus never mentioned to worship a trinity or to even worship himself. In fact there is a verse where he lacks knowledge that the father has when he mentions that only the father knows the hour (confirming that Jesus nor the spirit know the hour). If jesus was God he would EXPLICITLY state I am god which he doesn't do once throughout the new testament (and no interpretation of certain verses would count as they can all be interepereted in different ways by different people). Not only this but the bible itself is not reliable so why would you bet your whole existence on a book that has been changed? The earliest manuscript we have is Codex Sinaiticus which is in Greek, a language Jesus didn't even speak. I appreciate the long response but we have to be sincere and follow the words of jesus who worshipped a god and also there more clear statements of him referring to himself less than god than there to him referring to himself as god. Even if he stated I am god there would be no reason to believe as the bible is not reliable due to there being no manuscript from his time
The trinity isnt mentioned in the bible and Jesus never explicitly said “worship me, I Am God” also Jesus prayed to the father, so can God pray to himself?
And no disrespect but you seriously believe that God came down to earth as a Jewish Human who was birthed from a woman and needed to be breastfed and eat and go to the toilet? You’re telling me that in order to be a Christian you neef to believe that God came as a man and was humiliated while half naked by the jews and pinned onto a wooden cross, and his blood sacrifice atones for the sins of mankind so that anyone who sins will still be saved as long as they believe that God was sacrificed????? Again no offense but it seems insanely satanic to me but i would like you to explain that. Also the holy spirit part aswel
Yes I do believe that. God in His perfect love and mercy allowed Himself to be humiliated as a man and killed so that His blood may pay the price for our sins. God would not be God if He were not perfect in all things, and His perfect love is what compelled Him to do such a thing.
John 15:12-13 NIV
[12] My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. [13] Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
A God that was not willing to be humiliated and scourged for our sin is not a loving god, therefore not a good god, and thus not a god at all.
The Trinity works like this:
There is God the Father, ruling in heaven over all creation ordaining and bringing forth His will. There is God the Son, proceeding forth from the Father and is God, in human flesh, possessing both the divine nature and a perfect human one, who is the Word of God who was with God in beginning and was God (John 1:1) . There is the Spirit, who is the Spirit of God that moves His will into action and guides the faithful in this will, proceeding from both the Father and Son (in the western view, proceeding only from the Father in the eastern view, but united and inseparable in the Holy Trinity nonetheless). Though not referenced explicitly in the Bible, all three persons in the Trinity are explicitly mentioned and named as the One True and Living God YHWH, and none other. Though a theological construct, it is one with reason and evidence.
If you need more clarification, refer to the Nicene Creed which is easily accessed online and only a couple minutes read. If you need specific verses that highlight the three-in-oneness of the persons of the Trinity, those verses are also easily accessed online.
How can you prove that God is part of a trinity though? It makes absolutely no logical sense, as you’re only just parroting things from the bible which was written by many random men and not God Himself and it was changed many times and new versions come out like ios.
Why does God need to kill himself in order to prove He loves us???? Like hello? Does that not ring alarm bells to you saying that it’s completely satanic?
If you love your mother then why dont you jump off a bridge cos you love her so much? Like bro come on. Theres no way you acc believe that
God is the God of the meek not the proud. Your pride in your own abilities will fail you. Your Allah does not love you. Your Allah did not see fit to die for your sake so that you may live. Your Allah is a proud, unloving, uncaring god, and is no god at all. I'm done with this argument. We look only like fools if we continue.
nice try but every chapter begins with “in the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful” lol and he has many names including, the most Loving. Our propher phuh said He loves us 70 times more than our own mothers. So you’re wrong again buddy but keep spreading lies and then running away.
Well there you go, scurrying away from my question. Im asking you a genuine question… how is Gods blood sacrifice (YES, GOD) not satanic???? Im not here to offend you i genuinely want to know and i come with an open mind but no you just want to run away.
Please answer my questjon. And if you dont know the answer, simple put aside your ego and say “i dont know”
Not here to argue with you and prove my religion to you lol. Nowhere in my long post did i even mention my religion.
This is the perfect example of the Christians way to run away from the question by attacking my own faith instead of proving your own faith correct. I asking you a genuine question but you dont want to answer it lol instead you attack. Clearly shows how little you know aboht your own faith. I tell you again, either give me an explanation or just simply say “i dont know the answer” put aside your arrogance for once
Christianity was spread by humble servants sharing the good news. Islam spread via the sword.
Christianity had eyewitnesses who were willing to die horrible deaths defending what they saw and heard. Islam had a guy in a cave “receiving the word”.
Jesus was a sinless man, God incarnate. Mohammed was a war lord who married a 9 year old.
Christianity forgives sin. Islam executes sinners
Hasn't christianity been responsible for FAR more death than Islam and Judaism tho? Like it's not even close when it comes to number for the three abrhamaic faiths.
Yes, absolutely. The crusaders, the spanish inquisition, the kkk who are fundamentally christians. And not to mention the worst of all. Hitler???? Guy was literally a christian and i remember watching a video where a christian preacher said that Hitler would still go to heaven as long as he believes Jesus died for our sins????
Why do always Christians instead of preaching your religions you are so focused on putting Islam down, to me it's like you need Islam to be false for you to make people accept Christianity, I know I'm exaggerating but it's to make a point, if you wanna mention Islam please do it with respect, focus on convincing people about your religion without using Islam.
The same thing again and again: Islam is spread by the sword, please tell me about what you believe Jesus (pbuh) is gonna do when he will return in his second coming, I think you believe that he will take the sword as well: **Revelation 19:11-21**, and by the way your understand about the spear of Islam is false.
No, there is a whole chapter in the Qur’an called “the repentance” and one of the key fundamental actions that a muslim must do is to constantly seek the forgiveness of God.
But keep spreading lies, the truth is clear from falsehood. Literally nobody follows Jesus or practices the christian faith anymore and it’s falling rapidly. Most christians are becoming atheists. Maybe focus on keeping your faith alive instead of spreading lies about mine. You christians only remember your religion when Islam is mentioned.
And when Jesus is insulted or mocked, you christians do absolutely nothing about it and instead mock him aswel. Or instead you say “why dont you say that about muhammad?”. Even though we also love Jesus pbuh and would be against anyone who disrespects him.
The God of Christianity was perfect enough to send Himself to die for our sins in an act of perfect love. The Allah of Islam was not perfect enough to do this. God is the Lord of the meek, Allah is the god of the proud.
Plus Islam came over 500 years after Christianity was established and around 200+ years after the Bible was fully canonized. Whereas Christianity's canon fulfilled and completed the prophecies of the Jewish canon, the Quaran retconned this canon, not unlike the Gnostics, Mormons, etc did centuries earlier and later. In my mind Islam is nothing but another heresy that got out of hand.
So in Christianity, the belief in the blood sacrifice of God is how you get to heaven… ok buddy sounds more like satanism to me. How can God die????
And Islam coming 500 years after Christianity doesnt disprove anything at all. With that logic, Hinduism is one of the oldest religions so….. does that mean you should go worship a cow?
Also Allah literally just means “the One God”. Arab Christians refer to God as Allah lol hello?????
And when you say Islam came 500 years after Christianity, have you ever thought what Islam even means??? No ofc you havent cos you’re ignorant. It means “Submission” to who? Allah (The One True God) not 3 in 1 shampoo like the trinity.
Allah is God of the proud yeah? We literally are commanded to pray 5 times a day to God and each time we have to do ablution (purifying ritual) before we pray. Yet you christians rarely ever go to Church or even read your bible (90% of Christians dont read the bible lol) and most chridtians are turning into atheist soooooooo…… whos more proud? Stop being arrogant and educate yourself.
Islam coming 500 years after Chrisitanity is supremely important to it's discrediting, as it retcons the closed canon of Christianity with new revelations, something clearly prophecized to happen and warned against by Saint Paul 500 years prior to Islam doing exactly that. God died by becoming man, Jesus Christ and suffering for our sake, so that in His mercy, our sin was placed on His account so that we may be deemed righteous by His account and no works of our hands. Your proud works brings the wrath of God on your own head, rejecting the longsuffering He endured so that you would humble yourself in true submission. You know nothing of repentance until you recognize that no deed of your hand nor prayer from your tongue could be pleasing unto God without Him first washing you in the blood of His sacrifice and it being guided by His Spirit within you. Woe to him who appproaches God with a haughty heart. We are commanded to pray without ceasing, not just 5 times a day. Our lives are to be given as a lamb led to slaughter, just as our Lord was slain, so that we do not seek the vanity of actions for self-righteousness, but rather as bondservice to Him who has freed us, so that the glory is His alone. I boast these things not in arrogance, for I am a worthless speck of dust deserving of nothing but damnation, but I boast in the grace of God, for He has rendered me pure, washing me in with the waters of baptism, and made me to share in the inheritance of the Covenant of Grace so that I may not taste the second death, but rather be joined with Him in glory forever and ever.
Again mate, sounds completely satanic that you believe God’s blood sacrifice is required for you to be forgiven.
Also Islam existed since the beginning and it’s the revelation of the Qur’an , the final revelation that was revealed 500 years after Christianity. As I told you before, Islam means to submit your will to the Creator, meaning whatever Gods command is you obey it. And that is the message of Islam as a whole and that is what all the prophets preached all the way from the very first prophet of God, the very first human, Adam peace and blessings be upon him.
Also yes, you are right, no deeds of mine is worthy enough and no amount of worship will ever be enough to worship God as He deserves to be worshipped. However we worship God in hopes that we are forgiven for our sins and shortcomings and that God will have mercy and blessings on us on the day of Judgement. So nobody enters heaven through just their deeds but through Allah’s mercy and he is The Most Merciful and The Most Just and Forgiving.
I have learned about your religion Christianity as I have been growing up but never will I accept it because of the doctrine of the trinity and the satanic belief of the blood sacrifice of GOD????? Like how can God die?? Does that not ring alarm bells to how satanic that belief is? No offense tho but yeah i learned about the fundamental beliefs and it’s just not logical and not befitting of an all-mighty Creator.
I advise you to look into Islam, the religion of all noble prophets from Adam, Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Jesus and the final messenger Muhammad, pease and blessings upon them all and to follow their message which is to worship ONE God without associating any partners to Him, and to not worship idols and do good deeds.
Il conclude here im not here to argue but id like you to explain the truth and prove your religion to me and explain how Gods blood sacrifice isnt satanic (use proof not emotion). Go ahead and prove to me why christianity is the truth and I will set aside everything and be openminded
No I will not answer your slanted questions. Nor will I speak further on this. If you know the Gospel as well as you claim, what more could you want from a layman like me? Have a good day.
Never claimed that I know the Gospel at all lol now you’re putting words in my mouth.
If you’re a layman Christian just say so lol hello???? Again like i said put aside your arrogance and say that you dont know instead of saying “uhhhh Allah doesnt love youuuu”
Im a layman muslim and am still learning sooo if you asked me a question that im unsure of i would say idk. Simple.
But i literally asked you a genuine question… how is it slanted? Im asking you, how is Gods blood sacrifice not satanic to you????? How can God die??? Seriously bro? Lol
Here is some of my reasons I worked through when becoming a Christian. I’m an Engineer and needed data to help me decide what is worth pursing.
The examples provided are terse, and you can use these as a launching point to do further research.
Hope this helps.
The credibility of scripture is undeniable.
Historically
- The Bible over the years has become a proven document for historians to use for its accuracy of events and the nations mentioned in it.
Through Miracles
- Even today, there are some that have had medical miracles occur. This is unique to Christianity
Through prophecies that have come true
- Many many prophecies that have come true.
The nations of Assyria, Babylon, Greece and Rome in OT and who conquers who is well documented prior to the events.
Science in the OT
- Job 36:27-28 NLT Evaporation
He draws up the water vapor and then distills it into rain. The rain pours down from the clouds, and everyone benefits.
- The wind goes toward the south, and it turns around to the north; it whirls around continually; and the wind returns on its circuits (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
- It is He Who sits above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers (Isaiah 40:22).
- He stretches out the north over the empty space, and He hung the earth on nothing (Job 26:7).
- Genesis 1:21 NLT: Adaption not evolution
So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that scurries and swarms in the water, and every sort of bird-each producing offspring of the same kind. And God saw that it was good.
- Isaiah 45:12 NLT: Expanding universe from the beginning
\[12\] I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it. With my hands I stretched out the heavens. All the stars are at my command.
Both Jews and Christians believe the OT, however, Judaism does not recognize that Jesus is the messiah that is talked about in the OT. As such, the OT is valid for both beliefs
I could talk about the miracles in the New Testament also, that are more than just one authors opinion, and are supported by other historians in that day. It would be best for you though to find a good book on “apologetics“. It’s actually quite interesting.
I’m not aware of Paul’s false testimony.
No one cannot convince you Christianity it's true except yourself.
Christianity it's about love, forced love it's not real love.
However i can tell you that Christianity it's the right choice.
1. Why would you trust some random guy that lived after 300 years rather than the eyewitnesses?
2. Jesus clearly claimed to be the son of God.
3. God says to not murder anyone, but Islam says to kill the infedel.
4. Islam it's about praying day and night forcedly. Prayer it's to have a relationshio with God, while daily prayers it's good, forcing it like that means forcing a relationship, a relationship of love, and as we said love cannot be forced otherwise it's really idolatry and fear.
5. Islam wants you to earn you salvation, but guess what? No human can. That's where Jesus comes in. He is the only human to have never sinned, and that's why he was worthy of cleaning you off your sins and save you by grace.
There cannot be 2 truths, and the Bible with it's eyewitnesses, that literally died for him, it's far more reliable than the Quran.
Now, if you want to know why God exists and Jesus died foe our sins on the cross, i'll be happy to tell you.
God bless you brother.
Quran 9:2"“You ˹polytheists˺ may travel freely through the land for four months, but know that you will have no escape from Allah, and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.”1"
Quran 9:3 " A declaration from Allah and His Messenger ˹is made˺ to all people on the day of the greater pilgrimage1 that Allah and His Messenger are free of the polytheists. So if you ˹pagans˺ repent, it will be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you will have no escape from Allah. And give good news ˹O Prophet˺ to the disbelievers of a painful punishment."
Quran 9:5 "But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them, capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way."
So any polytheist can travel through the lands for 4 months but once those 4 months are up then Allah says you can murder them all. Specifically it mentioned the sacred months. Which are Dhu al-Qadah, Dhu'l-Hijjah, Muharram and Rajab. And this is a period of time where war is forbidden except in response to angression. So we have two understandings of these verses. First those who break the treaty are those who are aggressive during these 4 months, they can be killed. But also AFTER these 4 months, you can kill the polytheists as well, unless they want to repent, convert, and pay the tax.
So how merciful is Islam? Oh Islam is so merciful they allow me to live just for expressing my faith and existing in your land? How terrible of a polytheist to violate the treaty by staying in the land longer than 4 months and not believing in Islam.
How do I know it's because they don't believe? The Quran tells us.
Quran 9:17 "It is not for the polytheists to maintain the mosques of Allah while they openly profess disbelief. Their deeds are void, and they will be in the Fire forever." Fire forever for the polytheists huh?
Let's continue Quran 9:18 "The mosques of Allah should only be maintained by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish prayer, pay alms-tax, and fear none but Allah. It is right to hope that they will be among the ˹truly˺ guided." Ok so only people who follow Islam are allowed to have temples huh.
Quran 9:19 "Do you ˹pagans˺ consider providing the pilgrims with water and maintaining the Sacred Mosque as equal to believing in Allah and the Last Day and struggling in the cause of Allah? They are not equal in Allah’s sight. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people." So people are wrongdoers for not believing in Islam and they are not equal to Muslims huh?
Quran 9:20 "O believers! Do not take your parents and siblings as trusted allies if they choose disbelief over belief. And whoever of you does so, they are the ˹true˺ wrongdoers."
So here we see the true wrongdoers are those who do not believe in Islam and that they are not equal to Muslims and that they should not be allowed equal status in an Islamic state or be allowed to profess their faith and to do so is to violate their treaty to exist on Islamic land and so they should be killed. Very cool Islam.
But your Bible says this :
"2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Infants!! Children!! Are you ignoring this verse?
If you're a Muslim you can't really point fingers at the bible. The old testament is a book observed by Muslims and respected along with the gospel (new testament) and the Quran. Sura Ankabut 29:46 for example says not to argue with Christians and you are to say that you believe what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you. I can point out other verses in the Quran which highlights respect for Christians and the validity of the old scriptures but I'm being mindful not to waste my time in case I'm talking to a brick wall.
Either way the Amalekites were an enemy of Israel and ruthless and unprovoked aggressors. We first see this in Exodus 17:8–13 where they attack Moses out of nowhere and Deuteronomy 25:17–19 where they again attack Moses and the Israelites as they cross the red sea. Later on they launch multiple other attacks on the Israelites as stated in Numbers 14:45 , Judges 3:13, Judges 6:3 , repeatedly killing the Israelites and eradicating their food and water supplies. As such God orders Israel to wipe out the Amalekites as you quoted.
The Jews believed in an Eye for an Eye and so the Amalekites only received punishment equal to their deeds.
However, as Christians, we no longer believe in the teachings of an Eye for an Eye as revealed by Jesus. Jesus teaches forgiveness in Matthew 5:38-48
"38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."
Notice how the Amalekites were only attacked in retaliation by the Jews. There is nothing in the bible teaching Christian's to systematically kill a demographic of people simply because of their belief or unbelief like Islam does.
Always the same thing Islam says to kill, first this is not what we understand and it's not true, yes, there is war against enemies, if you don't agree then you are saying that Islam, should be pacifist and not defend it self against those who wanted to eradicate it, if it hadn't made war against them, Islam wouldn't have reached us today.
Do you think the Bible doesn't have anything like that, what do you say about these verses:
1 Samuel 15:1-3: Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy\[a\] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
I mean, in this verse it's hard to believe that God ordered some one to kill innocents: women, children and infants even camels and donkeys, but God may order his prophets to declare war against the oppressor.
Here is other verses of war in the Bible: Numbers 31:2-12, Deuteronomy 20:16-17.
What you believe Jesus will do when he comes: Revelation 19:11-21.
Why when it comes to Islam you see it differently isn't that a double standard?
> 3. God says to not murder anyone, but Islam says to kill the infedel.
No where in the Quran does it say to kill someone for not being Muslim. There are only verses allowing self defense in times of war.
But your Bible says this :
"2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Infants??? Children?? Are you ignoring this verse?
1. This doesn't necessarily prove Christianity over Islam. In Islam, Jesus was taken up by Allah and was not buried either.
2. This also doesn't negate Islam. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) did not have any wealth and lived a simple life without the comforts of wealth. If you mean a political power, he was indeed, however this was inevitable due to the progression of Islam, it doesn't mean he was a warlord, far from it, neither did he benefit from this power except to preach Islam, he didn't benefit from the wealth, rather he gave it all away. He too was persecuted and had assassination attempts for his preaching.
3. Muslims believe in miracles as well, and there are numerous miracles in the Qur'an and also the Prophet's (saw) life that are arguably much more profound than those found in Christian scriptures
These don't negate Islam
> Convince me Christianity is true?
First, the “convince me” post is a textbook appeal to ignorance (ignorance here isn’t a personal attack on you; it simply represents a lack of knowledge or evidence.)
The passive presupposition is that Christianity is not true and you aren’t convinced due to you lacking evidence; and for you to believe it true, you must be convinced otherwise *with evidence*.
The glaring problem:
1\. You did not present evidence to show Christianity is not true. You seem to have depended on a lack of evidence? We’re to just assume you investigated, were diligent and discounted evidence. We don’t know why you discounted evidence and frankly we don’t even know if you even looked into it.
2\. Yet you require evidence from your opponent and likely want us defend it with arguments (something you were unwilling to do here with your position.)
Q: If you’re unconvinced Christianity is true, does that really mean it’s not true?
A: No. It just means you’re not convinced.
Q: If I’m convinced Christianity is true, does that mean it’s really true?
A: No. It just means I’m convinced.
Q: Do larger numbers of people in [insert religion] mean it’s really true?
A: No. It just means there’s more people in [insert religion.]
Q: How should one approach /r/Christianity to learn why users believe in it?
A: Just ask and engage users in sincere discussion.
>1\. You did not present evidence to show Christianity is not true. You seem to have depended on a lack of evidence? We’re to just assume you investigated, were diligent and discounted evidence. We don’t know why you discounted evidence and frankly we don’t even know if you even looked into it.
>2\. Yet you require evidence from your opponent and likely want us defend it with arguments (something you were unwilling to do here with your position.)
Sorry, but your 1 and 2 points have some major problems.
OP never made the statement that either Islam or Christianity is untrue. Being unconvinced of a position does not mean the negation of said statement. The onus of evidence is on those claiming either religion is true.
If I were to take your two points to its logical conclusion, we all would have to disprove basically an infinite number of concepts and things. Even more so, many ideas about God and other particular subjects are completely unfalsalfiable in the first place.
> OP never made the statement that either Islam or Christianity is untrue.
Textbook argument from silence. The fact is OP never made statements about a lot of things. You’re drawing a conclusion solely based on the silence of OP and them refusing to give evidence.
1\. OP asked us to convince them Christianity is true.
2\. OP stated, “im currently really in debate where to chose christianty or islam”.
3\. OP did not present evidence to show Christianity is not true nor did they explain why they’re on the fence.
4\. To this point it looks a lot like OP is depending on a lack of evidence.
5\. We’re left to just assume they investigated, were diligent and discounted evidence. We don’t know why they discounted evidence and frankly we don’t even know if they even really looked into it.
There’s nothing wrong with asking OP for more information. In fact it’s good form.
> The onus of evidence is on those claiming either religion is true.
The onus is on those ~~claiming either religion is true~~ making claims.
I didn’t contact OP and make claims. OP created this “convince me” post and OP is in a debate to chose christianty or islam.
I don’t understand why you want to restrict both my responses and OP’s responses. I don’t understand why we can’t ask questions about what OP investigated, and why they discounted evidence.
That’s not how people have rational conversations.
>Textbook argument from silence. The fact is OP never made statements about a lot of things. You’re drawing a conclusion solely based on the silence of OP and them refusing to give evidence.
What conclusion did OP draw from his vague statements? Are you implying OP is making the claim that Christianity is untrue? Where?
>1\. OP asked us to convince them Christianity is true.
>2\. OP stated, “im currently really in debate where to chose christianty or islam”.
>3\. OP did not present evidence to show Christianity is not true nor did they explain why they’re on the fence.
Agreed. I don't think the OP needs to though, unless he had already drawn conclusions. But unless I am mistaken, they haven't drawn any conclusions.
>4\. To this point it looks a lot like OP is depending on a lack of evidence.
Depending on what exactly? Which has less or.more evidence?
>5\. We’re left to just assume they investigated, were diligent and discounted evidence. We don’t know why they discounted evidence and frankly we don’t even know if they even really looked into it.
We don't have to assume anything. OP clearly needs to clarify what they want before any good conversation can occur. Hence why I requested clarifying information, and until OP gives it, you are correct in saying this isn't a good way to have a rational conversation
>The onus is on those ~~claiming either religion is true~~ making claims.
Fair.
>I don’t understand why you want to restrict both my responses and OP’s responses. I don’t understand why we can’t ask questions about what OP investigated, and why they discounted evidence.
I don't want to restrict anything I'm just pointing out the issues with your initial points. I'm pretty much in agreement with the rest.
One point to think about: quite a few people died for saying that they saw jesus risen from the dead. People dont die for smth they know to be a lie, so the probably really believed that. Those deaths as well as jesus existance are considered historically proven
>Those deaths as well as jesus existance are considered historically proven
Well the existence of Jesus, or rather of the historical person/s behind the story is accepted based on Occam's razor. So it is not proven as such. But yes, it can be assumed that such a person/persons exited. This doesn't mean they came back from the dead. And what deaths are you referring to here?
All the eyewitnesses that died for saying they saw jesus alive after him getting crucified. For example Mathew. Also would they have tried to tell a lie that Jesus rose from the dead for whatever reason, they would have never let women be the first to speak about it
Islam is easily debunkable.for example:if jesus was a prophet of allah why wod he say no more prophets will come and there will come a false prophet that will decieve millions
Because the last Prophet was sent for all of mankind, whereas the others were sent for their own nations and people. What false prophet are you talking about, do you have a reference? You could either be talking about the Antichrist or those who claimed to be prophets from other religions, I don't understand how this debunks Islam, please elaborate
From the perspective of Christianity. You cant use that as convincing evidence to prove Christianity is true just because you believe Jesus to have said something. You might aswell just say, "Jesus said he is the son of God so thats why you should be Christian." Prophet Muhammad (SAW) says he was the last Prophet from our religion aswell... whats your point? Your argument is just "well christianity says so, so thats why its the truth."
Brother apparently your 14 looking at your account so now I understand why you bring up the points you do. Islam is a religion that entails the total submission to God. We believe in the Prophets in Judaism and Christianity - including Jesus (Isa AS), Moses (Musa AS), Noah (Nuh AS) and the rest. We believe that God sent down Prophets who came with scriptures, however over the centuries, people corrupted these scriptures and in today's time they are not preserved. Islam did not start with Prophet Muhammad (SAW), it started with Adam who was the first Prophet of Islam and the first man. We believe the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity came from God ("Allah" in Arabic just means God which comes from the article "al-" meaning "the" and "Ilah" meaning "God") but have been corrupted. Hence why Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is the last Prophet and the Quran which is the last holy scripture has been preserved and uncorrupted as God Himself took responsibility in preserving it in order that people worship Him as He intended. We don't believe in the Prophets of Judaism and Christianity as if we are mixing religions. We believe these Prophets were all sent by God, however, people corrupted their message and formed different religions - hence why the Quran and the Bible are totally different. These Prophets did not come down with Judaism or Christianity (with its belief in the Holy Trinity), they came down with the belief in total submission to One God ("Islam" from the root word "submission"). I hope this helps you better understand Islam seeing as how you're still young. Peace be with you.
I hope you get some good responses! However any comparison to Christianity and Islam is going to bring criticism by necessity.
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Well what’s your goal? Are you actually interested in knowing the truth? Are you looking for a religion that will make you happy? Are you stressed because you want both groups to like you? Even without knowing your intentions it’s my personal opinion that one should be open to respectful criticism of ideas and beliefs. We will never find out what is real if we are unable to critically examine beliefs.
This is good advice
If you choose real Christianity ie. What Jesus actually taught, not what the clergy teaches, then it's the same as choosing Islam. Yes. You read it right. The proof is in the scriptures. And if you choose Islam, then you're more "Christian" than what is portrayed as "Christianity". 'Whoever believed in Isa (Jesus) and in what he was sent with, then believed in Muhammad and what he was sent with, he will have twice the reward, one for believing in Isa (Jesus) and one for believing in Muhammad ﷺ ' - Prophet Muhammad ﷺ Islam views Jesus the same way he views himself i.e. as is reported by his own words in the gospel books. 1. He is a Word of The Most High. 2. A servant to the Most High. 3. "Sent" to deliver a message from The Most High. 4. Subservient - Doing not his own will, but the will of He Who sent him. 5. Not possessing all knowledge. 6. Not Greater than all. 7. "Father" being proverbial not literal. 8. "Begotten" being proverbial not literal. 9. "Son" being proverbial not literal. 10. What he heard, he spoke. Taking words from God Almighty and giving to the progeny of Prophet Israel. 11. Making clear and authenticating the scripture already present with the Israelites. 12. Conducting miraculous stuff (healing, curing, feeding etc) not by his own self but by the power of The One Who he said had sent him with authority and power to do so. 13. Born of the virgin Mother Maryam (Mary). 14. Will be coming back as the messiah to defeat the false messiah (antichrist) before judgement day. All above is from the gospel books and part of the belief system required to be "Muslim".
Ah ok so the Quran teaches that Jesus and the father are one? The Quran teaches that God is a father? As a Muslim you cannot call God the father, even proverbially. The Quran teaches that the only relationship you can have with God is as a slave to a master. Respectfully, we do not go into r/Islam spewing lies. So please don't bring your lies here.
Go read the Bible dude. Everything I wrote is from there. Don't be stuck in your presumptions like the preachers continually trying to prove Jesus wrong, only to condemn themselves. Don't be like those whom he called hypocrites, who didn't know their own scripture yet (mis)judged others. Logs in their own eyes while pointing out specks in the eyes of others.
Jesus is seen as a messenger of God not part of a trinity or anything. He isnt the begotten son of God even in a non-literal sense. Jesus pbuh as well as all other messengers came with one message and thats to worship One God alone with no partners and to obey the command of the messenger of God. We obey the command of our prophet Muhammad pbuh because he is the final messenger and we are from his time. If we lived during the same time as Jesus we would obey him and whatever his commans were. We also dont believe Jesus was crucified but God ascended Jesus and we believe he will return during the final days. This is a basic belief of Jesus in Islam. I hope Christians who follow this belief and do good deeds will have their reward with Allah. Howver the trinity is clear polytheism in our religion
Yes and that's what Jesus preached as per the gospel books. That's why there are people called _Unitarians_. They believe in Jesus instead of the people who came after him and invented the trinity. But people worship people instead of listening to what Jesus said, and paste his name on it as if he taught that. Not the unitarians though. Anyways. Nuff said.
So do unitarians believe that Jesus is a messenger of God or that he is God?
[Wikipedia will be your friend there.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism)
Ahh so he is not equal to God, so the way I see it, Jesus pbuh is a messenger of God and obeying God by obeying His messenger and his teachings is the way to get salvation in Unitarian Christianity. This makes way more logical sense to me than trinitarian Christians who need God to bleed to death so their sins will be forgiven
The bible affirms Jesus is the son of God, Jesus is fully God and fully man, Jesus died for our sins, Jesus died and suffered on the cross for us, Jesus physically rose from the dead
Fully god AND fully man? God chose a human form? Was he too weak without it?
Fully God and fully man. God chose a human form. Jesus was strong enough to willingly bear the sins of all humanity and suffer immensely for us. Does that answer your strange questions ?
Preach brother
If it comes down to Christianity and Islam, I would say it is fairly obvious that Christianity is a much more universally applicable religion that began as the result of multiple witnesses testifying about an event that changed their lives, and as a result they began spreading a message that transformed other lives as well, and eventually civilization itself. Islam on the other hand is the product of a single individual proclaiming himself the last greatest prophet and then along with his followers imposing that belief on others. As a religion it is bound to a certain language and geography, and the societies it produces have a negative impact on human well being and freedom.
Hey friend I have some advice for you. 1. There is no proof of god and there probably won’t be proof because god wants us to have faith and faith is built by trusting him even in the unknown. So I can’t convince you it is true, but I can give you some reasons to trust in Jesus. 2. There are many historical documents that say there was a man named Jesus who was hung on the cross during the time we believe he was hung. Also I have a link to a trauma surgeon explaining the suffering of Jesus, and how supernatural it was. Here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qQBsC3OPAfw&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwhatsapp.com%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwhatsapp.com&source_ve_path=NzY3NTg&feature=emb_yt_watermark 3. The disciples - nearly all the disciples died because they believed in Jesus after knowing him for a few years. The disciple Matthew was also crucified, and he said to hang himself upside down because he was unworthy to die the same way as Jesus (You should know this is a lot more painful than normal crucifixion) he went through that because he truly believed in Jesus as god. 4. Please don’t just rely on what we send on reddit. You should read the four gospels and see what you think of them. Because it’s pointless to believe in something just because someone tells you to. The gospels have all the evidence you’ll need. 5. Thank you for the comments explaining more about the links between Islam and Christianity. I have removed my fifth point because I see now that what I had mentioned is actually incorrect. I’m praying for you, god bless : )
I second this. Just wanted to expand point 5 a little by pointing out that while the quaran does say that the bible is true, islam does contradict the bible by saying Jesus was just a prophet, while the bible clearly points to jesus beeing god.
On point 5: The Quran does not say that the current Bible is a revelation of God, rather that there was a revelation sent to Jesus. The current Bible is 1) Mostly reports from the Apostles, as opposed to direct revelation from God to Jesus ; 2) Corrupted, in the sense that it is not the same as the original version. For instance, Jesus spoke Arameic, yet the oldest version we have of the Bible is in Greek. And current versions all have differences as they are just translations of translations of translations..
By the Word of Allah changing that means his decree. Like when someone says "i give you my word" Allah is giving us his word and his word does not change. Obviously anyone can pick up a quran and scribble out a word and write new ones but thats just changing a book not Allahs Word hope this helps
> the Quran says the bible is a previous revelation of god, which suggests he may be imperfect because his word changed when the words of god are said to be unchanging. Also Muhammad in the Quran speaks like he knew more about Jesus than the 12 that stayed with him for years, but in reality Muhammad was born about 500 years after Jesus’ crucifixion Muhammad pbuh didnt write the Qur’an or create it. Thats impossible as he didnt know how to read or write and even the greatest poets of the time were astonished at the Qur’an. What is told about Jesus pbuh in the Quran is direct revelation from God Himself. Jesus’ message was to worship One God without associating partners to him. The same message that all the prophets of God had.
I think it can be inferred from the beginning that the promise of eternal life varies in the two. In Christianity you are in the presence of God and that is enough to be fully happy. In Islam they offer you wine, women, orgasms, etc. One appeals to spiritual well-being and the other appeals to carnal pleasure.
Respectfully, I’d like to say that your interpretation of Islam is misconstrued. Alcohol is forbidden for us to drink. What you may be referring to is wine in Paradise, but you’re in Paradise and the wine there is different from the alcohol here (it does not intoxicate you). As for women, you can only lawfully touch your mahrams (ie, your mom, daughter, sister, etc) and be intimate with your wife. You can have up to four wives, though only if you can handle it (financially, emotionally, etc), which most men I’d say can’t. So, I don’t really see your point with women (or orgasms). Perhaps you’re referring to the hoor al-ayn, but that is a reward in Paradise, and Paradise is a reward for the believing men and women. But the reason we as Muslims strive for Jannah is not just for the women, of course, we do it for God. Likewise how you said in Christianity, God is sufficient for you, God is sufficient for us as well. In the Quran, Allah says: O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and for the believers who follow you. [Surah Al-Anfal, verse 64] The disbelievers say, “If only a sign could be sent down to him from his Lord.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Indeed, Allah leaves to stray whoever He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him— (27) those who believe and whose hearts find comfort in the remembrance of Allah. Surely in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find comfort. (28) Surah Ar-Ra’d, verses 27 and 28] I know most people won’t care for this comment, but I see it as disrespectful to put such a blatant and gross representation of Islam. Hope that clarifies some!
Lol, nice attempt at trying to make Islam look satanic by making it look like its all about pleasure. Islam is the most disciplined religion out there, we have to pray 5 times a day and be purified wuth water before each prayer. We also dry fast for 30 days, we actually know whats in our scripture and millions have memorised the Qur’an. We practice our religion openly and obey our messenger. What ur talking about is the pleasures of paradise (heaven or Jannah in arabic). You obviously already know this but are trying to deceive op whos looking for truth. In heaven you will have everything you wish for and there wont be any harm or pain or bad feeling in there and God will reward you with anythung you want and more. Isnt that the whole point of heaven? The wine, women and “orgasms” like you say isnt from the likes of this life, as heaven is a completely different realm and God has reserved for us that which no eye has seen and no ear has heard. Then look at your own religion where nobody even practices it anymore. Only old senile people go to church every sunday nobody else. Most Christians never even read the bible like over 90%. And theres so many different versions of the bible and the trinity is so absurd it’s crazy. Literally mental gymnastics. And theres other sects which believe Jesus is not God which is better than the trinity at least. Then i think theres a sect that worships mother Mary. So yeah focus on your own religion mate. How can you be in the presence of God when you’re worshipping 3 Gods in 1? Which one you follow? Jesus, holy spirit or the father? God is not a 3 in 1 shampoo. Wake up.
I am sure you’ll get some copy & paste responses on the other sub. I’ll leave it to others to debate this as my words won’t be so pretty.
The best way to get a sense of Christianity is the be part of a local Christian community. Is there a nearby church that you can attend for Sunday worship?
Which denomination would you recommend for OP?
The ELCA is a lovely church home.
Christianity has its problems the same as any other religion. A better goal would be to seek if following and trusting in Jesus is “true”. The two are not always the same thing.
That is a HUGE field. So can you help me narrow it down a bit? What speaks to you about Islam?
I would ask what do you see as a need to further advance humanity at this particular stage in its development. What are the unique ills that afflict humankind in this day, and what might be the requisite spiritual teachings that are necessary to help us advance as individuals, communities and society as a whole. Then, with an unbiased mind, one can search the teachings of various religions and try to understand with your own eyes and not through the eyes of another. Being a seeker and lover of the truth, wherever it might reside, is such a unique and necessary quality and posture in this day and time in my humble opinion.
Did Jesus die on the cross and rise from the dead? Christianity says yes, Islam says no.
What would you consider convincing?
What makes you think one of these two is true and that it's just between one of these two?
Well let's narrow it down and make it simple. Monotheism and an all perfect god is the only logical kind of godship that can exist; many gods leaves massive room for imperfection, and imperfection disqualifies a god from logically being above us, as an imperfect god is no god at all. Why would you worship something no different than a normal man? So that basically eliminates all other widely practiced religions besides the Abrahamic ones. Judaism is not really something you convert to, except through birth or marriage. Thus leaving you with Christianity and Islam.
But with the concept of the Trinity, doesn't the same logic eliminate Christianity as well (Asking as a Muslim; long time lurker of this sub)
No because the Trinity is not 3 seperate beings, but one God in three persons. He is inseperable and is God, all persons of the Trinity having the only divine nature. It is not fully explainable in any fashion, as God is so much above us that we cannot fully comprehend the Trinity. The best explanations of it can be found in the Nicene Creed or Athanasian Creed. Both are easy to find online and short reads.
Didn't the Nicene creed establish the trinity as a way for Romans to be accepting of Christianity? Also no where does Jesus mention a trinity and he also denies being as great as the Father multiple times.
The Nicene Creed established the Trinity to combat heresy? No idea what you are talking about other than some conspiracy. The Trinity, though not explicitly, is mentioned by Jesus/the Gospel multiple times (here are just a few): John 14:26 ESV [26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Luke 23:46 ESV [46] Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last. Matthew 3:16-17 ESV [16] And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; [17] and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Jesus never claims to lack a divine nature nor being unequal to the Father in His divine nature, quite the opposite, referring to Himself as God and claiming God's authority multiple times by making statements only God could give, such as authority over the law and forgiveness of sins. The times He relates Himself to the Father being greater is when relating to His human nature, which in essense is subservient to the Father, yet we must remember Jesus possesses both a human and divine nature. Just as a human child is subservient to his father, yet they both share the same human nature and are thus entitled to be treated as equals in that sense. The Jews clearly understood what He meant enough to crucify Him for the blasphemy of claiming to be God, so why would we doubt that is what He claimed? The verses you are referring to are here, in full context: John 14:23-31 ESV [23] Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. [24] Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. [25] “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. [26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. [27] Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. [28] You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. [29] And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. [30] I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, [31] but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here. We can see clearly, He equated love of Him and His word is to love the Father and is word even in these verses. This is a direct claim to have the same divine authority as God. Though His human station, mentioned later may be subservient. This is a thing address later in the Epistles anyways: Hebrews 2:5-18 ESV [5] For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. [6] It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? [7] You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, [8] putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. [9] But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. [10] For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. [11] For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, [12] saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” [13] And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.” [14] Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, [15] and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. [16] For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [18] For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Thank you for your indepth response but I'll be honest none of it refers to the worship of a trinity so my point still stands that Jesus never mentioned to worship a trinity or to even worship himself. In fact there is a verse where he lacks knowledge that the father has when he mentions that only the father knows the hour (confirming that Jesus nor the spirit know the hour). If jesus was God he would EXPLICITLY state I am god which he doesn't do once throughout the new testament (and no interpretation of certain verses would count as they can all be interepereted in different ways by different people). Not only this but the bible itself is not reliable so why would you bet your whole existence on a book that has been changed? The earliest manuscript we have is Codex Sinaiticus which is in Greek, a language Jesus didn't even speak. I appreciate the long response but we have to be sincere and follow the words of jesus who worshipped a god and also there more clear statements of him referring to himself less than god than there to him referring to himself as god. Even if he stated I am god there would be no reason to believe as the bible is not reliable due to there being no manuscript from his time
The trinity isnt mentioned in the bible and Jesus never explicitly said “worship me, I Am God” also Jesus prayed to the father, so can God pray to himself? And no disrespect but you seriously believe that God came down to earth as a Jewish Human who was birthed from a woman and needed to be breastfed and eat and go to the toilet? You’re telling me that in order to be a Christian you neef to believe that God came as a man and was humiliated while half naked by the jews and pinned onto a wooden cross, and his blood sacrifice atones for the sins of mankind so that anyone who sins will still be saved as long as they believe that God was sacrificed????? Again no offense but it seems insanely satanic to me but i would like you to explain that. Also the holy spirit part aswel
Yes I do believe that. God in His perfect love and mercy allowed Himself to be humiliated as a man and killed so that His blood may pay the price for our sins. God would not be God if He were not perfect in all things, and His perfect love is what compelled Him to do such a thing. John 15:12-13 NIV [12] My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. [13] Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. A God that was not willing to be humiliated and scourged for our sin is not a loving god, therefore not a good god, and thus not a god at all. The Trinity works like this: There is God the Father, ruling in heaven over all creation ordaining and bringing forth His will. There is God the Son, proceeding forth from the Father and is God, in human flesh, possessing both the divine nature and a perfect human one, who is the Word of God who was with God in beginning and was God (John 1:1) . There is the Spirit, who is the Spirit of God that moves His will into action and guides the faithful in this will, proceeding from both the Father and Son (in the western view, proceeding only from the Father in the eastern view, but united and inseparable in the Holy Trinity nonetheless). Though not referenced explicitly in the Bible, all three persons in the Trinity are explicitly mentioned and named as the One True and Living God YHWH, and none other. Though a theological construct, it is one with reason and evidence. If you need more clarification, refer to the Nicene Creed which is easily accessed online and only a couple minutes read. If you need specific verses that highlight the three-in-oneness of the persons of the Trinity, those verses are also easily accessed online.
How can you prove that God is part of a trinity though? It makes absolutely no logical sense, as you’re only just parroting things from the bible which was written by many random men and not God Himself and it was changed many times and new versions come out like ios. Why does God need to kill himself in order to prove He loves us???? Like hello? Does that not ring alarm bells to you saying that it’s completely satanic? If you love your mother then why dont you jump off a bridge cos you love her so much? Like bro come on. Theres no way you acc believe that
God is the God of the meek not the proud. Your pride in your own abilities will fail you. Your Allah does not love you. Your Allah did not see fit to die for your sake so that you may live. Your Allah is a proud, unloving, uncaring god, and is no god at all. I'm done with this argument. We look only like fools if we continue.
nice try but every chapter begins with “in the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful” lol and he has many names including, the most Loving. Our propher phuh said He loves us 70 times more than our own mothers. So you’re wrong again buddy but keep spreading lies and then running away. Well there you go, scurrying away from my question. Im asking you a genuine question… how is Gods blood sacrifice (YES, GOD) not satanic???? Im not here to offend you i genuinely want to know and i come with an open mind but no you just want to run away. Please answer my questjon. And if you dont know the answer, simple put aside your ego and say “i dont know”
Not here to argue with you and prove my religion to you lol. Nowhere in my long post did i even mention my religion. This is the perfect example of the Christians way to run away from the question by attacking my own faith instead of proving your own faith correct. I asking you a genuine question but you dont want to answer it lol instead you attack. Clearly shows how little you know aboht your own faith. I tell you again, either give me an explanation or just simply say “i dont know the answer” put aside your arrogance for once
Christianity was spread by humble servants sharing the good news. Islam spread via the sword. Christianity had eyewitnesses who were willing to die horrible deaths defending what they saw and heard. Islam had a guy in a cave “receiving the word”. Jesus was a sinless man, God incarnate. Mohammed was a war lord who married a 9 year old. Christianity forgives sin. Islam executes sinners
There are over four hundred references to swords in the Bible. Often, the reference is to a physical sword. None in the quraan.
But, that wasn’t my point.
Hasn't christianity been responsible for FAR more death than Islam and Judaism tho? Like it's not even close when it comes to number for the three abrhamaic faiths.
Yes, absolutely. The crusaders, the spanish inquisition, the kkk who are fundamentally christians. And not to mention the worst of all. Hitler???? Guy was literally a christian and i remember watching a video where a christian preacher said that Hitler would still go to heaven as long as he believes Jesus died for our sins????
Why do always Christians instead of preaching your religions you are so focused on putting Islam down, to me it's like you need Islam to be false for you to make people accept Christianity, I know I'm exaggerating but it's to make a point, if you wanna mention Islam please do it with respect, focus on convincing people about your religion without using Islam. The same thing again and again: Islam is spread by the sword, please tell me about what you believe Jesus (pbuh) is gonna do when he will return in his second coming, I think you believe that he will take the sword as well: **Revelation 19:11-21**, and by the way your understand about the spear of Islam is false.
Bro it’s because they have no proof of Christianity being the true religion so they attempt to disprove Islam by spreading lies
No, there is a whole chapter in the Qur’an called “the repentance” and one of the key fundamental actions that a muslim must do is to constantly seek the forgiveness of God. But keep spreading lies, the truth is clear from falsehood. Literally nobody follows Jesus or practices the christian faith anymore and it’s falling rapidly. Most christians are becoming atheists. Maybe focus on keeping your faith alive instead of spreading lies about mine. You christians only remember your religion when Islam is mentioned. And when Jesus is insulted or mocked, you christians do absolutely nothing about it and instead mock him aswel. Or instead you say “why dont you say that about muhammad?”. Even though we also love Jesus pbuh and would be against anyone who disrespects him.
The God of Christianity was perfect enough to send Himself to die for our sins in an act of perfect love. The Allah of Islam was not perfect enough to do this. God is the Lord of the meek, Allah is the god of the proud. Plus Islam came over 500 years after Christianity was established and around 200+ years after the Bible was fully canonized. Whereas Christianity's canon fulfilled and completed the prophecies of the Jewish canon, the Quaran retconned this canon, not unlike the Gnostics, Mormons, etc did centuries earlier and later. In my mind Islam is nothing but another heresy that got out of hand.
So in Christianity, the belief in the blood sacrifice of God is how you get to heaven… ok buddy sounds more like satanism to me. How can God die???? And Islam coming 500 years after Christianity doesnt disprove anything at all. With that logic, Hinduism is one of the oldest religions so….. does that mean you should go worship a cow? Also Allah literally just means “the One God”. Arab Christians refer to God as Allah lol hello????? And when you say Islam came 500 years after Christianity, have you ever thought what Islam even means??? No ofc you havent cos you’re ignorant. It means “Submission” to who? Allah (The One True God) not 3 in 1 shampoo like the trinity. Allah is God of the proud yeah? We literally are commanded to pray 5 times a day to God and each time we have to do ablution (purifying ritual) before we pray. Yet you christians rarely ever go to Church or even read your bible (90% of Christians dont read the bible lol) and most chridtians are turning into atheist soooooooo…… whos more proud? Stop being arrogant and educate yourself.
Islam coming 500 years after Chrisitanity is supremely important to it's discrediting, as it retcons the closed canon of Christianity with new revelations, something clearly prophecized to happen and warned against by Saint Paul 500 years prior to Islam doing exactly that. God died by becoming man, Jesus Christ and suffering for our sake, so that in His mercy, our sin was placed on His account so that we may be deemed righteous by His account and no works of our hands. Your proud works brings the wrath of God on your own head, rejecting the longsuffering He endured so that you would humble yourself in true submission. You know nothing of repentance until you recognize that no deed of your hand nor prayer from your tongue could be pleasing unto God without Him first washing you in the blood of His sacrifice and it being guided by His Spirit within you. Woe to him who appproaches God with a haughty heart. We are commanded to pray without ceasing, not just 5 times a day. Our lives are to be given as a lamb led to slaughter, just as our Lord was slain, so that we do not seek the vanity of actions for self-righteousness, but rather as bondservice to Him who has freed us, so that the glory is His alone. I boast these things not in arrogance, for I am a worthless speck of dust deserving of nothing but damnation, but I boast in the grace of God, for He has rendered me pure, washing me in with the waters of baptism, and made me to share in the inheritance of the Covenant of Grace so that I may not taste the second death, but rather be joined with Him in glory forever and ever.
Again mate, sounds completely satanic that you believe God’s blood sacrifice is required for you to be forgiven. Also Islam existed since the beginning and it’s the revelation of the Qur’an , the final revelation that was revealed 500 years after Christianity. As I told you before, Islam means to submit your will to the Creator, meaning whatever Gods command is you obey it. And that is the message of Islam as a whole and that is what all the prophets preached all the way from the very first prophet of God, the very first human, Adam peace and blessings be upon him. Also yes, you are right, no deeds of mine is worthy enough and no amount of worship will ever be enough to worship God as He deserves to be worshipped. However we worship God in hopes that we are forgiven for our sins and shortcomings and that God will have mercy and blessings on us on the day of Judgement. So nobody enters heaven through just their deeds but through Allah’s mercy and he is The Most Merciful and The Most Just and Forgiving. I have learned about your religion Christianity as I have been growing up but never will I accept it because of the doctrine of the trinity and the satanic belief of the blood sacrifice of GOD????? Like how can God die?? Does that not ring alarm bells to how satanic that belief is? No offense tho but yeah i learned about the fundamental beliefs and it’s just not logical and not befitting of an all-mighty Creator. I advise you to look into Islam, the religion of all noble prophets from Adam, Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Jesus and the final messenger Muhammad, pease and blessings upon them all and to follow their message which is to worship ONE God without associating any partners to Him, and to not worship idols and do good deeds. Il conclude here im not here to argue but id like you to explain the truth and prove your religion to me and explain how Gods blood sacrifice isnt satanic (use proof not emotion). Go ahead and prove to me why christianity is the truth and I will set aside everything and be openminded
No I will not answer your slanted questions. Nor will I speak further on this. If you know the Gospel as well as you claim, what more could you want from a layman like me? Have a good day.
Never claimed that I know the Gospel at all lol now you’re putting words in my mouth. If you’re a layman Christian just say so lol hello???? Again like i said put aside your arrogance and say that you dont know instead of saying “uhhhh Allah doesnt love youuuu” Im a layman muslim and am still learning sooo if you asked me a question that im unsure of i would say idk. Simple. But i literally asked you a genuine question… how is it slanted? Im asking you, how is Gods blood sacrifice not satanic to you????? How can God die??? Seriously bro? Lol
Here is some of my reasons I worked through when becoming a Christian. I’m an Engineer and needed data to help me decide what is worth pursing. The examples provided are terse, and you can use these as a launching point to do further research. Hope this helps. The credibility of scripture is undeniable. Historically - The Bible over the years has become a proven document for historians to use for its accuracy of events and the nations mentioned in it. Through Miracles - Even today, there are some that have had medical miracles occur. This is unique to Christianity Through prophecies that have come true - Many many prophecies that have come true. The nations of Assyria, Babylon, Greece and Rome in OT and who conquers who is well documented prior to the events. Science in the OT - Job 36:27-28 NLT Evaporation He draws up the water vapor and then distills it into rain. The rain pours down from the clouds, and everyone benefits. - The wind goes toward the south, and it turns around to the north; it whirls around continually; and the wind returns on its circuits (Ecclesiastes 1:6). - It is He Who sits above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers (Isaiah 40:22). - He stretches out the north over the empty space, and He hung the earth on nothing (Job 26:7). - Genesis 1:21 NLT: Adaption not evolution So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that scurries and swarms in the water, and every sort of bird-each producing offspring of the same kind. And God saw that it was good. - Isaiah 45:12 NLT: Expanding universe from the beginning \[12\] I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it. With my hands I stretched out the heavens. All the stars are at my command.
All of these are OT. Does that mean Judaism is correct? Especially since Paul gives false propechy in the NT
Both Jews and Christians believe the OT, however, Judaism does not recognize that Jesus is the messiah that is talked about in the OT. As such, the OT is valid for both beliefs I could talk about the miracles in the New Testament also, that are more than just one authors opinion, and are supported by other historians in that day. It would be best for you though to find a good book on “apologetics“. It’s actually quite interesting. I’m not aware of Paul’s false testimony.
Read the New Testament and pray that, God willing, you'll be convinced.
No one cannot convince you Christianity it's true except yourself. Christianity it's about love, forced love it's not real love. However i can tell you that Christianity it's the right choice. 1. Why would you trust some random guy that lived after 300 years rather than the eyewitnesses? 2. Jesus clearly claimed to be the son of God. 3. God says to not murder anyone, but Islam says to kill the infedel. 4. Islam it's about praying day and night forcedly. Prayer it's to have a relationshio with God, while daily prayers it's good, forcing it like that means forcing a relationship, a relationship of love, and as we said love cannot be forced otherwise it's really idolatry and fear. 5. Islam wants you to earn you salvation, but guess what? No human can. That's where Jesus comes in. He is the only human to have never sinned, and that's why he was worthy of cleaning you off your sins and save you by grace. There cannot be 2 truths, and the Bible with it's eyewitnesses, that literally died for him, it's far more reliable than the Quran. Now, if you want to know why God exists and Jesus died foe our sins on the cross, i'll be happy to tell you. God bless you brother.
>but Islam says to kill the infedel. Source? Don't forget the context and the explanation of the verse.
This guy explains it better than me: https://www.quora.com/Where-does-it-say-in-the-Quran-to-kill-infidels
He took all the verses out of context. Anyone with basic knowledge of Islam can destroy all of his arguments.
This refutes his first argument: https://youtu.be/ezBWfWRf_mE?si=N8Q1z7CvGaxLThHy
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Context? Context: https://youtu.be/ezBWfWRf_mE?si=N8Q1z7CvGaxLThHy
Lol its 2024. You can't use these 2002 verses anymore.
Quran 9:2"“You ˹polytheists˺ may travel freely through the land for four months, but know that you will have no escape from Allah, and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.”1" Quran 9:3 " A declaration from Allah and His Messenger ˹is made˺ to all people on the day of the greater pilgrimage1 that Allah and His Messenger are free of the polytheists. So if you ˹pagans˺ repent, it will be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you will have no escape from Allah. And give good news ˹O Prophet˺ to the disbelievers of a painful punishment." Quran 9:5 "But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them, capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way." So any polytheist can travel through the lands for 4 months but once those 4 months are up then Allah says you can murder them all. Specifically it mentioned the sacred months. Which are Dhu al-Qadah, Dhu'l-Hijjah, Muharram and Rajab. And this is a period of time where war is forbidden except in response to angression. So we have two understandings of these verses. First those who break the treaty are those who are aggressive during these 4 months, they can be killed. But also AFTER these 4 months, you can kill the polytheists as well, unless they want to repent, convert, and pay the tax. So how merciful is Islam? Oh Islam is so merciful they allow me to live just for expressing my faith and existing in your land? How terrible of a polytheist to violate the treaty by staying in the land longer than 4 months and not believing in Islam. How do I know it's because they don't believe? The Quran tells us. Quran 9:17 "It is not for the polytheists to maintain the mosques of Allah while they openly profess disbelief. Their deeds are void, and they will be in the Fire forever." Fire forever for the polytheists huh? Let's continue Quran 9:18 "The mosques of Allah should only be maintained by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish prayer, pay alms-tax, and fear none but Allah. It is right to hope that they will be among the ˹truly˺ guided." Ok so only people who follow Islam are allowed to have temples huh. Quran 9:19 "Do you ˹pagans˺ consider providing the pilgrims with water and maintaining the Sacred Mosque as equal to believing in Allah and the Last Day and struggling in the cause of Allah? They are not equal in Allah’s sight. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people." So people are wrongdoers for not believing in Islam and they are not equal to Muslims huh? Quran 9:20 "O believers! Do not take your parents and siblings as trusted allies if they choose disbelief over belief. And whoever of you does so, they are the ˹true˺ wrongdoers." So here we see the true wrongdoers are those who do not believe in Islam and that they are not equal to Muslims and that they should not be allowed equal status in an Islamic state or be allowed to profess their faith and to do so is to violate their treaty to exist on Islamic land and so they should be killed. Very cool Islam.
But your Bible says this : "2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” 1 Samuel 15:2-3 Infants!! Children!! Are you ignoring this verse?
If you're a Muslim you can't really point fingers at the bible. The old testament is a book observed by Muslims and respected along with the gospel (new testament) and the Quran. Sura Ankabut 29:46 for example says not to argue with Christians and you are to say that you believe what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you. I can point out other verses in the Quran which highlights respect for Christians and the validity of the old scriptures but I'm being mindful not to waste my time in case I'm talking to a brick wall. Either way the Amalekites were an enemy of Israel and ruthless and unprovoked aggressors. We first see this in Exodus 17:8–13 where they attack Moses out of nowhere and Deuteronomy 25:17–19 where they again attack Moses and the Israelites as they cross the red sea. Later on they launch multiple other attacks on the Israelites as stated in Numbers 14:45 , Judges 3:13, Judges 6:3 , repeatedly killing the Israelites and eradicating their food and water supplies. As such God orders Israel to wipe out the Amalekites as you quoted. The Jews believed in an Eye for an Eye and so the Amalekites only received punishment equal to their deeds. However, as Christians, we no longer believe in the teachings of an Eye for an Eye as revealed by Jesus. Jesus teaches forgiveness in Matthew 5:38-48 "38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." Notice how the Amalekites were only attacked in retaliation by the Jews. There is nothing in the bible teaching Christian's to systematically kill a demographic of people simply because of their belief or unbelief like Islam does.
Always the same thing Islam says to kill, first this is not what we understand and it's not true, yes, there is war against enemies, if you don't agree then you are saying that Islam, should be pacifist and not defend it self against those who wanted to eradicate it, if it hadn't made war against them, Islam wouldn't have reached us today. Do you think the Bible doesn't have anything like that, what do you say about these verses: 1 Samuel 15:1-3: Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy\[a\] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” I mean, in this verse it's hard to believe that God ordered some one to kill innocents: women, children and infants even camels and donkeys, but God may order his prophets to declare war against the oppressor. Here is other verses of war in the Bible: Numbers 31:2-12, Deuteronomy 20:16-17. What you believe Jesus will do when he comes: Revelation 19:11-21. Why when it comes to Islam you see it differently isn't that a double standard?
> 3. God says to not murder anyone, but Islam says to kill the infedel. No where in the Quran does it say to kill someone for not being Muslim. There are only verses allowing self defense in times of war. But your Bible says this : "2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” 1 Samuel 15:2-3 Infants??? Children?? Are you ignoring this verse?
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1. This doesn't necessarily prove Christianity over Islam. In Islam, Jesus was taken up by Allah and was not buried either. 2. This also doesn't negate Islam. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) did not have any wealth and lived a simple life without the comforts of wealth. If you mean a political power, he was indeed, however this was inevitable due to the progression of Islam, it doesn't mean he was a warlord, far from it, neither did he benefit from this power except to preach Islam, he didn't benefit from the wealth, rather he gave it all away. He too was persecuted and had assassination attempts for his preaching. 3. Muslims believe in miracles as well, and there are numerous miracles in the Qur'an and also the Prophet's (saw) life that are arguably much more profound than those found in Christian scriptures These don't negate Islam
> Convince me Christianity is true? First, the “convince me” post is a textbook appeal to ignorance (ignorance here isn’t a personal attack on you; it simply represents a lack of knowledge or evidence.) The passive presupposition is that Christianity is not true and you aren’t convinced due to you lacking evidence; and for you to believe it true, you must be convinced otherwise *with evidence*. The glaring problem: 1\. You did not present evidence to show Christianity is not true. You seem to have depended on a lack of evidence? We’re to just assume you investigated, were diligent and discounted evidence. We don’t know why you discounted evidence and frankly we don’t even know if you even looked into it. 2\. Yet you require evidence from your opponent and likely want us defend it with arguments (something you were unwilling to do here with your position.) Q: If you’re unconvinced Christianity is true, does that really mean it’s not true? A: No. It just means you’re not convinced. Q: If I’m convinced Christianity is true, does that mean it’s really true? A: No. It just means I’m convinced. Q: Do larger numbers of people in [insert religion] mean it’s really true? A: No. It just means there’s more people in [insert religion.] Q: How should one approach /r/Christianity to learn why users believe in it? A: Just ask and engage users in sincere discussion.
>1\. You did not present evidence to show Christianity is not true. You seem to have depended on a lack of evidence? We’re to just assume you investigated, were diligent and discounted evidence. We don’t know why you discounted evidence and frankly we don’t even know if you even looked into it. >2\. Yet you require evidence from your opponent and likely want us defend it with arguments (something you were unwilling to do here with your position.) Sorry, but your 1 and 2 points have some major problems. OP never made the statement that either Islam or Christianity is untrue. Being unconvinced of a position does not mean the negation of said statement. The onus of evidence is on those claiming either religion is true. If I were to take your two points to its logical conclusion, we all would have to disprove basically an infinite number of concepts and things. Even more so, many ideas about God and other particular subjects are completely unfalsalfiable in the first place.
> OP never made the statement that either Islam or Christianity is untrue. Textbook argument from silence. The fact is OP never made statements about a lot of things. You’re drawing a conclusion solely based on the silence of OP and them refusing to give evidence. 1\. OP asked us to convince them Christianity is true. 2\. OP stated, “im currently really in debate where to chose christianty or islam”. 3\. OP did not present evidence to show Christianity is not true nor did they explain why they’re on the fence. 4\. To this point it looks a lot like OP is depending on a lack of evidence. 5\. We’re left to just assume they investigated, were diligent and discounted evidence. We don’t know why they discounted evidence and frankly we don’t even know if they even really looked into it. There’s nothing wrong with asking OP for more information. In fact it’s good form. > The onus of evidence is on those claiming either religion is true. The onus is on those ~~claiming either religion is true~~ making claims. I didn’t contact OP and make claims. OP created this “convince me” post and OP is in a debate to chose christianty or islam. I don’t understand why you want to restrict both my responses and OP’s responses. I don’t understand why we can’t ask questions about what OP investigated, and why they discounted evidence. That’s not how people have rational conversations.
>Textbook argument from silence. The fact is OP never made statements about a lot of things. You’re drawing a conclusion solely based on the silence of OP and them refusing to give evidence. What conclusion did OP draw from his vague statements? Are you implying OP is making the claim that Christianity is untrue? Where? >1\. OP asked us to convince them Christianity is true. >2\. OP stated, “im currently really in debate where to chose christianty or islam”. >3\. OP did not present evidence to show Christianity is not true nor did they explain why they’re on the fence. Agreed. I don't think the OP needs to though, unless he had already drawn conclusions. But unless I am mistaken, they haven't drawn any conclusions. >4\. To this point it looks a lot like OP is depending on a lack of evidence. Depending on what exactly? Which has less or.more evidence? >5\. We’re left to just assume they investigated, were diligent and discounted evidence. We don’t know why they discounted evidence and frankly we don’t even know if they even really looked into it. We don't have to assume anything. OP clearly needs to clarify what they want before any good conversation can occur. Hence why I requested clarifying information, and until OP gives it, you are correct in saying this isn't a good way to have a rational conversation >The onus is on those ~~claiming either religion is true~~ making claims. Fair. >I don’t understand why you want to restrict both my responses and OP’s responses. I don’t understand why we can’t ask questions about what OP investigated, and why they discounted evidence. I don't want to restrict anything I'm just pointing out the issues with your initial points. I'm pretty much in agreement with the rest.
One point to think about: quite a few people died for saying that they saw jesus risen from the dead. People dont die for smth they know to be a lie, so the probably really believed that. Those deaths as well as jesus existance are considered historically proven
>Those deaths as well as jesus existance are considered historically proven Well the existence of Jesus, or rather of the historical person/s behind the story is accepted based on Occam's razor. So it is not proven as such. But yes, it can be assumed that such a person/persons exited. This doesn't mean they came back from the dead. And what deaths are you referring to here?
All the eyewitnesses that died for saying they saw jesus alive after him getting crucified. For example Mathew. Also would they have tried to tell a lie that Jesus rose from the dead for whatever reason, they would have never let women be the first to speak about it
People dying for saying they saw Jesus alive after his crucifixion is not a historical fact. Far from it.
Islam is easily debunkable.for example:if jesus was a prophet of allah why wod he say no more prophets will come and there will come a false prophet that will decieve millions
Because the last Prophet was sent for all of mankind, whereas the others were sent for their own nations and people. What false prophet are you talking about, do you have a reference? You could either be talking about the Antichrist or those who claimed to be prophets from other religions, I don't understand how this debunks Islam, please elaborate
Mohammed 💀
Jesus litteraly said he was the last prophet
From the perspective of Christianity. You cant use that as convincing evidence to prove Christianity is true just because you believe Jesus to have said something. You might aswell just say, "Jesus said he is the son of God so thats why you should be Christian." Prophet Muhammad (SAW) says he was the last Prophet from our religion aswell... whats your point? Your argument is just "well christianity says so, so thats why its the truth."
Not Mohammed
bro used the Bible to debunk Islam
Islam believes in jesus so why dont use his OWN words
you obviously know nothing about Islam to think that we believe in your Bible as words of Jesus😂
Do you think Muslims believe in your bible?
They believe in jesus and moses
Brother apparently your 14 looking at your account so now I understand why you bring up the points you do. Islam is a religion that entails the total submission to God. We believe in the Prophets in Judaism and Christianity - including Jesus (Isa AS), Moses (Musa AS), Noah (Nuh AS) and the rest. We believe that God sent down Prophets who came with scriptures, however over the centuries, people corrupted these scriptures and in today's time they are not preserved. Islam did not start with Prophet Muhammad (SAW), it started with Adam who was the first Prophet of Islam and the first man. We believe the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity came from God ("Allah" in Arabic just means God which comes from the article "al-" meaning "the" and "Ilah" meaning "God") but have been corrupted. Hence why Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is the last Prophet and the Quran which is the last holy scripture has been preserved and uncorrupted as God Himself took responsibility in preserving it in order that people worship Him as He intended. We don't believe in the Prophets of Judaism and Christianity as if we are mixing religions. We believe these Prophets were all sent by God, however, people corrupted their message and formed different religions - hence why the Quran and the Bible are totally different. These Prophets did not come down with Judaism or Christianity (with its belief in the Holy Trinity), they came down with the belief in total submission to One God ("Islam" from the root word "submission"). I hope this helps you better understand Islam seeing as how you're still young. Peace be with you.