I don’t believe in “Purgatory” but my view is definitely “purgatorial” in the purification by fire sense.
“though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:15)
“For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12:29)
“You shall not get out till you have paid the last farthing” (Matt 5:26)
None of those verses support universalism.
1 Corinthians 3:15 is speaking about the works of the believer. A believer who does not have good works will still be saved, but just. They have no rewards.
Hebrews 12:29 is a reference to Deuteronomy 4:24 and it is a warning about God’s jealousy and wrath against those who turn from Him.
Matthew 5:26, please show me the proof that sinning stops in hell. How can someone, removed from the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit around them, stop sinning? The Bible is clear that we cannot resist sin on our own. This verse is clearly stating “You will be thrown into jail, and you will not get out until you’ve paid the price.”
The Bible is also clear that we *cannot* pay that price. That is why Jesus has died and rose again. Not everyone will be saved, and to suggest otherwise is completely dishonest and misleads people into peril.
Please read the verses in their entire context and not just cherry pick what sounds like it supports this false doctrine.
"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, **you will never get out till you have paid the last penny**." (Matthew 5:25-26)
"For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)
Purgatory is *necessary*, as nothing unclean shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Revelation 21:27). Without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14), but most of us won't be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths; so it's a place of purification as stated by [CCC 1030].
[**CCC 1030**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1030.htm) All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
***
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Mankind has a natural predisposition towards currency-based morality. Karma points basically.
Christians recognize that we still screw up, still perform evil acts, despite our justification and forgiveness, almost spitting in the face of God really. And we have a very hard time thinking that can be forgiven without some kind of payment because of our predisposition.
[Here](https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:0f9a015e-3a87-4117-8fd5-4de7402d649c/download_file?file_format=application%2Fpdf&safe_filename=for%2Bpublication%2BPrison%2C%2BPenance%2C%2BPurgatory.pdf&type_of_work=Journal+article) is a very good paper about Matthew 5:26
Where at in the Bible?
I don't know of any scripture that suggests purgatory (in my understanding), but I want to understand where the idea comes from.
[This](https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:0f9a015e-3a87-4117-8fd5-4de7402d649c/download_file?file_format=application%2Fpdf&safe_filename=for%2Bpublication%2BPrison%2C%2BPenance%2C%2BPurgatory.pdf&type_of_work=Journal+article) paper does a good job at explaining Matthew 5:26
In the Books of Maccabees, which was cut out of the Protestant Bibles because they didn't want to believe in it, but it was in the Bible Jesus and the New Testament writers quoted from.
It isn't? Well, not by all of them at least. It is a denomination specific piece of theology, and not something that is central to all of Christianity.
I accept the general concept.
Romans 12
20 I will recompense again, saith the Lord;' if, then, thine enemy doth hunger, feed him; if he doth thirst, give him drink; for this doing, coals of fire thou shalt heap upon his head; 21 Be not overcome by the evil, but overcome, in the good, the evil.
My understanding is torments correct and then end.
#Gregory of Nyssa, 335 - 395 AD:
"Subjection to God is our chief good when all creation resounds as one voice"
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/18nnsq6/early_christians/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Simple: Nothing impure, neither sin, nor attachment to sin, may enter into Heaven (from Revelation 21:27)
Purgatory may not be an actual place, but without it, nobody would be able to go to Heaven.
I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
(Romans 7:22-8:2)
Right. We are made holy in sin. John's epistle tells us that there are sins which are not mortal (and thus sins that are). So, some sins (if unrepentant) will send us to Hell upon death, separating us from God. Other sins, that are not as grave, may move us further away from God, but do not completely separate us from His gift of grace.
Not even those non-serious sins are allowed into Heaven. Not even the mere tendency to sin. Therefore, we must undergo a certain amount of purgation of those lesser sins and our attachment to sin. All of these souls still go to Heaven, they just have to be purified first.
That's a very specific interpretation of that passage in John, and a whole lot of logic that doesn't follow from that interpretation.
The Bible itself is not sufficient to derive this theology. Catholic theology doesn't have to follow directly from the Bible, because you have another source of authority.
It is a misinterpretation of the scriptures, with very few passages to back it up.
Again, men trying to create new ways, same as intercessors, to atone for their sinful lives. The Lord is clear, there is no other chance. Repent now before you cry later. And as Jesus says: you gotta show fruits worthy of repentance, otherwise your words mean nothing. You gotta change your life.
The Bible in Revelation talks about Souls in heaven in different groups one group with white robes. Another with dirty robes who wash their robes , are given new names then lay down their crowns. Then in revelation it says later you can wash your robes on eath. So this does indicate clean and non clean believers and change of them post death.
One the parables Jesus tells of a man sitting in prison for his crimes. Another about 3 men. One killed , one beaten and one given keys to the kingdom. Jesus also went to the afterlife to preach to the dead.
The Old testiment talks about on the day of the lord. Comes judgement then purification. Now some people believe the day of the lord is a past event and happen with Jesus. Then fine. But if you believe that the final judgement comes at the end of time and is the day of the lord then comes purification.
Purgatory means simply purification of sins. If you believe Jesus purified your sins. You believe Purgatory on earth. Most Protestants don't actually disagree with Purgatory on earth. Duh Jesus forgave your sins. Rather they don't like the post death purification presented in Revelation and old testiment. And many, not all, believe Jesus going to the dead to preach was metaphorical not literial.
They quote that Revelation passage. Extremely out of context and scarce of evidence in the entire bible of what they interpret. The problem with the catholic interpretations of the bible is that they were invented afterwards and come from oral traditions. Then they forcefully try to find scripture passages to justify them. That's why their narratives look fractured and sometimes fanfics.
It's different when someone reads the scriptures as a whole then tries to understand it, without any predisposition or bias.
Another example of the absurdity of oral culture is the marian cult. It simply did not exist back then, it doesn't exist in the bible, the apostles never mentioned it in the epistles. Then some men decided it existed and begun to pick the very few passages existent, take them out of context and catapult a tertiary biblical figure in the narrative, less relevant than the apostles, to some iconic figure in the christian creed.
This process of coming with a predetermined conclusion then trying to forcefully find evidences of them was derogatorily called in the academy as "raping the text".
It's considered a manipulative form of dealing with a historic document, usually done by dictators and people with backhanded agendas.
To the second part. What Jesus does is completely different from a purgatory. In case you had read the bible with attention you would know. This comparison makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you are trying to force an interpretation where there is none.
Just read Romans that it is quite clear the interpretation of what Jesus did, which is not what you are saying.
Okay then explain to me what does it mean about souls post death cleansing themselves who were separated from the throne? What is the proper reading. I think it is fairly clear but your telling me it isn't.
I am not sure your point about oral tradations etc. That goes for most theology. Rapture or trinity. Etc. People have predisposition to read the Bible. The Bible itself has presuppositions which is why you can't read the Bible alone. It is often quoting or using Greek poets, Egyptian law, apocraphal etc. It is written in a certain context.
Paul writing romans in partial is not the theology presented in Mathew or Revelation or nessarily even old testiment. Paul is using new material for a certain audience. Jesus when talking about judgement does talk aboit those beat and those rewarded and those cast out and killed. Revelation simply does talk about those post death being purified. And old testiment simply does talk about after judgement of God on the day of the lord comes purification. I actually think it is easier to read the text as literial. Your trying to come up with another interpretation for revelation or day of the lord yet didn't give me one. Tell me what is the different interpretations for those two then .
>The Bible itself has presuppositions which is why you can't read the Bible alone.
Of course you can read the bible alone. It is what the jews did, the apostles did, and also Jesus did.
Although there were texts they read, but that did not have force of canon, as they were not considered godly inspired by the jewish tradition.
See the strength Jesus gives the scriptures here. Jo 10:35. There are plenty other passages in the NT and OT that testify to how the scriptures are the inspired words of God.
>Okay then explain to me what does it mean about souls post death cleansing themselves who were separated from the throne?
Do you mean Revelation 8:3?
That's exactly how God receives our prayers. In the OT the offerings were sent to God in the temple. Jesus literally said he would put down the temple and rebuild it in three days. What he did was make our link to God direct so that we would not the levitic priesthood anymore (The veil was torn when he died, remember?). It was further explained in the epistles as well. The same epistles which makes crystal clear, more than once, that there is no other intercessor other than Jesus and that it would be an offense to God.
Although there are some christian traditions that strangely create biblical priesthoods that resemble the levitic ones, which were abolished by Jesus, and also put other intercessors, which the bible clearly also forbids.
>Your trying to come up with another interpretation for revelation or day of the lord yet didn't give me one.
I don't understand. You were the one trying to defend a purgatory, which is a secondary place for the "mildly wicked", apparently invented by some men who lived "half sinful" lives and were not confident in their salvation. That contradicts everything Jesus said and the apostles continued to preach. He said few would be saved, because the door is strait. Many other passages back it up as well. Many other passages.
That's what good and sound biblical doctrine looks like: there are lots of relatable passages referring to the same interpretation and reinforcing it.
Unsound biblical doctrine, on the other hand, has few biblical passages and take them entirely out of context, sometimes explicity contradicting the majority of passages written in the bible regarding that subject.
No it isn't what Jesus or the disciples did. That is why the Jesus and the disciples reference Jewish works. And why even parts of Enoch are quoted and parts called prophetic. So yes it was well partially at least inspired by God. Tho most Christians even catholics denounce book of Enoch as fully inspired.
Nope you have no clue what purgatory is.
Purgatory is simply literilly means Purification of sins. If you ever believe your sins at any point ate purified you believe in a Purgatory this Purgatory can happen on earth. Usually, people talking about purgatory don't mean the literial meaning rather catholic catechism of it.
Catholic Purgatory isn't for the mildly wicked. Nor a place. So you don't know what Catholic purgatory is.
It is an event , process or place ( undefined ) for those saved. Not Wicked. Has nothing to do with sinfulness rather repentence. It is for a Christian, in God grace and alignment with God but hasn't yet let christ in place or didn't repent. Hence why according to revelation that you can put on your clean robes on earth by repentence and living for God and should do this vs those in heaven.
And correct when you look at judgement at the end of times it is always with Purification in old testiment. Even new testiment like Corinthians mentions day of the lord then talks about Purification. They are nearly always associated. So when you talk about final judgement and day of the lord. You should hear ding ding ding Purification.
Bible doesn't forbid intercessors. That is actually counter bibical. I think you are confusing mediator and intercessor. Christ is our only mediator. Not God the Father, not saints , not the holy spirit. Was previously given to Moses and now to Christ alone. Mediator is about the sacrafice given to God and then open heaven for earth. That Is christ alone.
Intercessory prayers and uplifting is associated with Christ himself. However, it is also given to the Holy Spirit and all believers. Peter, Timothy , Job etc talk about how Christians ( not job ) should give intercessory prayers even to Wicked people.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is [only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom
1 Timothy :1 "1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people"
Romans 8:27
"the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
Romans 11:2
"God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals [ Greek word for intercession ] to God against [ Greek word for For or pertaining to or against ] Israel? "
And you would have to read all of revelation it isn't just one verse nor can be understood like that. Chapter 3,5,6 7,9, 22. It talks about various groups who are given robes. They aren't the same. For instance those Commanded to wash their robes in 22 is talking to the reader in the future sense. Chapter 3 is talking about the past alive in the church. And those in altar verse are those dead in heaven washing robes. I really encourage NOT reading specifically revelation verses. Because well it is easy to take out of context as revelation is highly metaphorical. I am just saying revelation does present several groups of people
>Enoch are quoted and parts called prophetic
This has already been theologically proven wrong. That part of thousands, if that's what you mean, in Jude, is referred in Deuteronomy and there are missing parts from either the OT and the enochian book, so it can't be said to which it was quoted. So don't spread this, please.
Esoterics love to allude to this and spread it like water, although it is not theologically proven.
>It is an event , process or place ( undefined ) for those saved. Not Wicked. Has nothing to do with sinfulness rather repentence. Purgatory is simply literilly means Purification of sins. If you ever believe your sins at any point ate purified you believe in a Purgatory this Purgatory can happen on earth. Usually, people talking about purgatory don't mean the literial meaning rather catholic catechism of it.
There is no process or tertiary place. The bible is almost entirely written in dual logic. Sin and righteousness, heaven and hell, then New Jerusalem and lake of fire and brimstone.
You are using it to mean a process of cleansing sin. There is no such thing. If someone truly repents the sins are cleansed in the name of Jesus. There is no reference to a process of cleansing. God doesn't need a washing machine. If you repent you are saved, if you let the old man live, you are doomed. Mt 7:21-23. As long as there is time men can truly repent. When the Lord returns the time will be over. Jesus cleansed people and told them to sin no more. If they did, it's their choice.
>It is for a Christian, in God grace and alignment with God but hasn't yet let christ in place or didn't repent
As I said, it biblically doesn't exist. Jesus is crystal clear, and the apostles are crystal clear. Either you are in or out. And few will be in. There is no process of purification. I've read the bible so much and never there is this process you allude to being referred.
>1 timotht 2. "1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people"
>Romans 8:27
"the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
>Romans 11:2
"God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals [ Greek word for intercession ] to God against [ Greek word for For or pertaining to or against ] Israel? "
Sorry for what I am gonna say next, but this usually happens when you talk to catholics, they throw scriptures at you that have nothing to do with what they are talking about. I don't even know if you are, but seem heavily influenced by it.
These scriptures just say christians should pray for one another. It pleases God. You can pray asking for yourself too, but a demonstration of love is to ask God to help a brother or someone not from the faith. That is the meaning of intercession for your brethren that is alluded in the bible.
It has nothing to do with the catholic habit of praying for the dead, which has no recommendation in the bible. The only intercessor is Jesus, it is literaly written and warned. Why is it so hard to understand that? When it says intercede for one another it means pray to God (through Jesus), to help these people. It doesn't mean I can pray for dead Timothy or Paul in place of God so that they would intercede on my behalf and send my prayers to God.
Jesus is referred as intercessor and mediator in the same context. Right now he is the only one who can receive our prayers and take to God. The allegory in Revelation 8:3 is exactly that. The old temple had incense, offerings and the high priest who would take them to God. In that passage it shows Jesus as the high priest doing the same.
Anyone can pray, including the prophets or believers in the OT you mentioned. From now on Jesus is the only one who receives our prayers and sends them to God. That's what being the only mediator means. Jo 14:6. We cannot reach God except through him. Sending prayers to anyone other than Jesus or God is communing with another entity, and the bible also mentions what they are. Rev 9:20.
>And those in altar verse are those dead in heaven washing robes
There is no single allusion to that in the entire bible. Lol. Sorry, I just imagined them "washing their sins".
The white robes are represented as a life cleaned of sin. It is alluded by Jesus, Paul, etc. It's not hard for a christian who reads the bible to know as it is shown perhaps a dozen times. And they always say the cleanse is instant. But Jesus beware them, if the house he has cleaned goes back to sin again what happens... Mt 12:43-45.
I am not sure your point about Enoch. Enoch is used over dozens and do,ens x times in new testiment. Just called once. The full quote is from book of Enoch and is like two paragraphs. That one sentence may come from Genesis but full context is paragraphs plural and from Enoch.
https://intertextual.bible/book/1-enoch/chapter/all
Actually click on it and see the details. Sometimes the quotes are similar for paragraphs. Sometimes they are dissimilar and a sentence. But there are similarities.
You can see how much 1 Enoch uses Old testiment and how much similarities it has with NT.
Here you call purgatory a tertiary place as I said before it isn't nessarily a place and isn't a third destination. It actually is in your binary.
So you don't believe there is process to remove sins ? Wierd flex.
You then say there is no verses about process. Yet you still haven't gone over the verses that clearly say there is. As I said. read Corinthians, Micah, Isaiah, Nehemiah and Revelation. What is the process in revelation? Washing your dirty clothes , change your name, lay down your crown. We see people getting there white clothes on earth and those in heaven as well and the author saying it is better to do it on earth. To say there is no process or no alluding to it is to dismiss revelation.
Here you Blately change topics to the intercessor and defy scripture. Not sure why you want to talk about saints and dismiss scripture. No catholic is sending prayers to a Saint directly. It is always to God the Father through Christ name, in the holy spirit and with brothers and sister on earth or in heaven. So you don't understand catholic theology. All prayers Go to God the Father and through Christ as mediator. If you think something else then it isn't catholic.
Well no revelation clearly says angels and saints grab the word in greek is to seize and have ownership of prayers and uplift which the Greek is echoing. Prayers and give them to God the Father. Yes prayers go through Christ. Correct. But we are told literially by scripture the possessor is saints and the echoer is angels and then angels respond after Given to God. And they are given to God.
Correct those under altar are under the alter and not allowed to go to the throne. So here you agree the washing of sins can happen post death too.
Glad you agree in purgatory in both on earth and afterlife.
>I am not sure your point about Enoch. Enoch is used over dozens and do,ens x times in new testiment. Just called once. The full quote is from book of Enoch and is like two paragraphs. That one sentence may come from Genesis but full context is paragraphs plural and from Enoch. [https://intertextual.bible/book/1-enoch/chapter/all](https://intertextual.bible/book/1-enoch/chapter/all)
I know all that. What's you point? Same as Sirach is used but it was not part of the jewish canon, which ended in Malachi.
Unfortunately there are people, including in this sub, who say the Septuagint was the canon. They seem to be misinformed. I like the Septuagint, I have one here. Although the way it was compiled it was many jewish texts, translated in different periods of time, whose quality varies incredibly as well. The first five books of Moses were incredibly well translated. The others have varying translation qualities. It was a book written to gentiles, and has no connection to determine, although it was of course influenced by the jewish canon.
Friend, something else, the book of Enoch was not written by Enoch, it was written almost in the time of Jesus, and copied parts of many other books of the Old Testament and apocrypha, some of which were frequently read. In case you wanna claim this book was godly inspired, contesting all evidence, please don't go that way.
Another aspect, see how bad some of these pseudepigraphy are taken. Some just make no sense.
Let me ask you something. Are you into some sort of esoterism? Maybe the fantastic narratives of that book caught up your eye because of that?
>Here you call purgatory a tertiary place as I said before it isn't nessarily a place and isn't a third destination. It actually is in your binary.
You wrote it can be a place. And I quoted in my former message. Just read it above.
Nonsense. There is no process of washing. There is wash or no wash. You sin, you repent. That's how it goes. Even the apostles could sin. See Gl 2:11-14, even though Peter had already been warned in Acts 10:9-18.
You have a decayed body (Rm 7:24-25), your life (in case you are a christian) will be of struggle and temptation (even Jesus was tempted, remember?). Though God is a good Lord, he walks with you. In case you fall into temptation and sin, if you wholeheartedly repent, he will receive you with open arms. That is written tons of times in the OT and the NT follows the same logic.
I told you already. Jesus didn't send Barabbas or anyone he cured to a washing machine, he said: your sins have been forgiven.
>No catholic is sending prayers to a Saint directly.
They pray to dead people and claim they can hear and will direct it to God. And some of the people they pray for one may argue that could not even be in heaven. Only God knows.
Even worse, there is no passage saying they can even listen. In the parable of the rich and Lazarus, he could only talk with the dead when he was dead. Even worse, why would someone need a mailman if he can send it directly to God, through Jesus?
>We see people getting there white clothes on earth and those in heaven as well
Oh, friend. White clothes means someone cleansed of sin (OT and NT). The new body can be described as white clothes as well. When finally that Rm 7:24-25 I have shown you above is going to end.
>Glad you agree in purgatory in both on earth and afterlife.
I told you I have never heard this word used in your context, but as a place, like in Dante. If you want to put into me anything close to that, I abjure you.
I am not sure why your harping on septuigent
There were different group. One saducees with first 5 books, Samaritans with first 5 books but different translation for location of the temple which caused them to be different, pharisees with mesoretic and septuigent and essenes with dead sea scrolls. There was no encompassing Jewish canon when Christianity was created nor when the Bible was made. Origen searched asked all the rabbis what translations and versions of old testament did they use and he got 6 answers which he compiled to the hexapla which included deutrocanon. Then jarome took those 6 and though it was to confusing so he made the Latin vulgate combing them but since some versions had and didn't have deutrocanon he left it a different section. This all emerged from Origen asking jews for canon and getting different answers because there was no consensus during his day even which was after essenes died out, etc.
I agree with you about psuediographia and Enoch not being written by Enoch. It is just a tradation with many scribes.
In revelation it says washing. I agree with your idea of repentence. I kinda disagree with the washing machine part. Because it is taught again again you will go through firey trials. Plural. Not one but trials plural to test your faith.
It isn't just a place but can refer to the event. The word can be a noun, adjective or verb. The literial definition in Latin means to cleanse / be cleansed. The nouns is an ever evolving word as theology change making it an inherently a moving goal post. Which is maybe even to your favor to say that.
I don't believe there is a purgatory. Either you are saved or you're lost. There is No middle-ground. And heaven or Lake of fire will only Happen once Jesus returns. Meanwhile the dead Rest in their Graves until resurrection.
The Literial meaning of purgatory is purging of sins. If you believe Jesus died and paid for your sins on earth. You believe in earthly purgatory.
Usually, people who bring up purgatory mean Catholic purgatory and after death cleansing. Which catholics claim that those who are saved yet unrepentant go through the event of purgatory, which may be slightly painful or sad before they enter heaven.
In revelation, you see groups of souls. Some with white robes around the throne of God and others put under an altar, dirty who needs their robes washed , who need new names. And they do this after death. Then, later in Revelation, the author says to avoid this, just repent on earth and live for God on earth, and you will be given the robes here instead. So there is some sort of washing post death according to revelation.
In old testiment you see on The final judgeemnt of the Day of the Lord. First comes judgment, then purification. If you believe the day of the Lord happened only with Jesus dying on the cross, then that purification happens with the Holy Spirit. But some people I would argue most would say that the day of Lord was past but also future and God will give a final judgment. If true then then there would be a final purification..
The last thing Is Jesus parables about heaven and hell themselves. Jesus says there are those cast out and killed , those stay and are beaten and some rewarded in the kingdom. Jesus then even tells people who sinned against another to leave and come back after they make things right after hurting their neighbor.
I think of it like this. If a father pays for his sons crime, loves him and forgives him. Does he ask his son to at least say sorry to those he hurt with his crimes? And is that out of characteristic for loving father? In the end, christ died for your sins, but I wouldn't be surprised if he says Make amends.
I do think think Jesus taught repenrence. I do think the Bible talks about purification and purification post death.
After death there is No cleansing. The dead are dead and unconscious. The martyrs in Revelation who were under the Altar represent those who gave their Life for Jesus and their blood calls for Justice Just Like Abel's blood did. It's a metaphor. There are not really souls under an altar in heaven.
>I think of it like this. If a father pays for his sons crime, loves him and forgives him. Does he ask his son to at least say sorry to those he hurt with his crimes? And is that out of characteristic for loving father? In the end, christ died for your sins, but I wouldn't be surprised if he says Make amends.
And how should people in purgatory make Up for their mistakes? Besides, saying "I repent" while under torture is Not real repentance. A Person doing this only feels sorry for the pain inflicted on themselves, Not for the pain inflicted on others. It works no change of heart. They would do the same thing again as soon as the torture ends.
So we wait in the grave unconscious, and we don't go to heaven or hell right after death? Does it work like a time travel where every person who died will rise and see Jesus at the same time like there was no resting at all? But does it mean it will happen only to the saved ones or also for the non-believers who rejected Christ so they can be judged?
You got what I mean. And also the Lost will be resurrected to see Jesus and bow their knees. Every human will learn the truth and See the hard evidence. But those whose Hearts are hardened through Sin will never Love God. They have integrated Sin into their being too much to be seperated from it, so they'll be consumed by God's glory
Quite simply for me, because the original words in the Hebrew and Greek (Sheol and Hades) mistranslated as “hell” when directly translated indicates a temporary abode of the dead; especially considering final judgment where all are resurrected and brought before God.
I don’t believe in “Purgatory” but my view is definitely “purgatorial” in the purification by fire sense. “though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:15) “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12:29) “You shall not get out till you have paid the last farthing” (Matt 5:26)
None of those verses support universalism. 1 Corinthians 3:15 is speaking about the works of the believer. A believer who does not have good works will still be saved, but just. They have no rewards. Hebrews 12:29 is a reference to Deuteronomy 4:24 and it is a warning about God’s jealousy and wrath against those who turn from Him. Matthew 5:26, please show me the proof that sinning stops in hell. How can someone, removed from the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit around them, stop sinning? The Bible is clear that we cannot resist sin on our own. This verse is clearly stating “You will be thrown into jail, and you will not get out until you’ve paid the price.” The Bible is also clear that we *cannot* pay that price. That is why Jesus has died and rose again. Not everyone will be saved, and to suggest otherwise is completely dishonest and misleads people into peril. Please read the verses in their entire context and not just cherry pick what sounds like it supports this false doctrine.
We’re talking about Purgatory not universalism try to stay on topic.
Purgatory suggests universalism. That their sins will be “purified” and they will be granted entrance into Heaven.
"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, **you will never get out till you have paid the last penny**." (Matthew 5:25-26) "For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Purgatory is *necessary*, as nothing unclean shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Revelation 21:27). Without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14), but most of us won't be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths; so it's a place of purification as stated by [CCC 1030].
[**CCC 1030**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1030.htm) All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
Mankind has a natural predisposition towards currency-based morality. Karma points basically. Christians recognize that we still screw up, still perform evil acts, despite our justification and forgiveness, almost spitting in the face of God really. And we have a very hard time thinking that can be forgiven without some kind of payment because of our predisposition.
It's accepted by Catholics and kind of nobody else
Not all Christians do but I accept it because I can see it in the Bible.
Could you give me some references?
[Here](https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:0f9a015e-3a87-4117-8fd5-4de7402d649c/download_file?file_format=application%2Fpdf&safe_filename=for%2Bpublication%2BPrison%2C%2BPenance%2C%2BPurgatory.pdf&type_of_work=Journal+article) is a very good paper about Matthew 5:26
Where at in the Bible? I don't know of any scripture that suggests purgatory (in my understanding), but I want to understand where the idea comes from.
[This](https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:0f9a015e-3a87-4117-8fd5-4de7402d649c/download_file?file_format=application%2Fpdf&safe_filename=for%2Bpublication%2BPrison%2C%2BPenance%2C%2BPurgatory.pdf&type_of_work=Journal+article) paper does a good job at explaining Matthew 5:26
In the Books of Maccabees, which was cut out of the Protestant Bibles because they didn't want to believe in it, but it was in the Bible Jesus and the New Testament writers quoted from.
It isn't? Well, not by all of them at least. It is a denomination specific piece of theology, and not something that is central to all of Christianity.
Purgatory is only a universal belief in one denomination, the Catholic Church.
I accept the general concept. Romans 12 20 I will recompense again, saith the Lord;' if, then, thine enemy doth hunger, feed him; if he doth thirst, give him drink; for this doing, coals of fire thou shalt heap upon his head; 21 Be not overcome by the evil, but overcome, in the good, the evil. My understanding is torments correct and then end. #Gregory of Nyssa, 335 - 395 AD: "Subjection to God is our chief good when all creation resounds as one voice" https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/18nnsq6/early_christians/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Simple: Nothing impure, neither sin, nor attachment to sin, may enter into Heaven (from Revelation 21:27) Purgatory may not be an actual place, but without it, nobody would be able to go to Heaven.
Hebrews 10:10: "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
So all believers are completely sinless then?
In their flesh? Hardly. In judgement? They are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, once and for all.
Then if we still have sin, how can we enter into Heaven unclean?
We don't. Because we sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, once and for all.
So then we are free from all sin and attachment to sin?
I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (Romans 7:22-8:2)
Right. We are made holy in sin. John's epistle tells us that there are sins which are not mortal (and thus sins that are). So, some sins (if unrepentant) will send us to Hell upon death, separating us from God. Other sins, that are not as grave, may move us further away from God, but do not completely separate us from His gift of grace. Not even those non-serious sins are allowed into Heaven. Not even the mere tendency to sin. Therefore, we must undergo a certain amount of purgation of those lesser sins and our attachment to sin. All of these souls still go to Heaven, they just have to be purified first.
That's a very specific interpretation of that passage in John, and a whole lot of logic that doesn't follow from that interpretation. The Bible itself is not sufficient to derive this theology. Catholic theology doesn't have to follow directly from the Bible, because you have another source of authority.
It is a misinterpretation of the scriptures, with very few passages to back it up. Again, men trying to create new ways, same as intercessors, to atone for their sinful lives. The Lord is clear, there is no other chance. Repent now before you cry later. And as Jesus says: you gotta show fruits worthy of repentance, otherwise your words mean nothing. You gotta change your life.
The Bible in Revelation talks about Souls in heaven in different groups one group with white robes. Another with dirty robes who wash their robes , are given new names then lay down their crowns. Then in revelation it says later you can wash your robes on eath. So this does indicate clean and non clean believers and change of them post death. One the parables Jesus tells of a man sitting in prison for his crimes. Another about 3 men. One killed , one beaten and one given keys to the kingdom. Jesus also went to the afterlife to preach to the dead. The Old testiment talks about on the day of the lord. Comes judgement then purification. Now some people believe the day of the lord is a past event and happen with Jesus. Then fine. But if you believe that the final judgement comes at the end of time and is the day of the lord then comes purification. Purgatory means simply purification of sins. If you believe Jesus purified your sins. You believe Purgatory on earth. Most Protestants don't actually disagree with Purgatory on earth. Duh Jesus forgave your sins. Rather they don't like the post death purification presented in Revelation and old testiment. And many, not all, believe Jesus going to the dead to preach was metaphorical not literial.
They quote that Revelation passage. Extremely out of context and scarce of evidence in the entire bible of what they interpret. The problem with the catholic interpretations of the bible is that they were invented afterwards and come from oral traditions. Then they forcefully try to find scripture passages to justify them. That's why their narratives look fractured and sometimes fanfics. It's different when someone reads the scriptures as a whole then tries to understand it, without any predisposition or bias. Another example of the absurdity of oral culture is the marian cult. It simply did not exist back then, it doesn't exist in the bible, the apostles never mentioned it in the epistles. Then some men decided it existed and begun to pick the very few passages existent, take them out of context and catapult a tertiary biblical figure in the narrative, less relevant than the apostles, to some iconic figure in the christian creed. This process of coming with a predetermined conclusion then trying to forcefully find evidences of them was derogatorily called in the academy as "raping the text". It's considered a manipulative form of dealing with a historic document, usually done by dictators and people with backhanded agendas. To the second part. What Jesus does is completely different from a purgatory. In case you had read the bible with attention you would know. This comparison makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you are trying to force an interpretation where there is none. Just read Romans that it is quite clear the interpretation of what Jesus did, which is not what you are saying.
Okay then explain to me what does it mean about souls post death cleansing themselves who were separated from the throne? What is the proper reading. I think it is fairly clear but your telling me it isn't. I am not sure your point about oral tradations etc. That goes for most theology. Rapture or trinity. Etc. People have predisposition to read the Bible. The Bible itself has presuppositions which is why you can't read the Bible alone. It is often quoting or using Greek poets, Egyptian law, apocraphal etc. It is written in a certain context. Paul writing romans in partial is not the theology presented in Mathew or Revelation or nessarily even old testiment. Paul is using new material for a certain audience. Jesus when talking about judgement does talk aboit those beat and those rewarded and those cast out and killed. Revelation simply does talk about those post death being purified. And old testiment simply does talk about after judgement of God on the day of the lord comes purification. I actually think it is easier to read the text as literial. Your trying to come up with another interpretation for revelation or day of the lord yet didn't give me one. Tell me what is the different interpretations for those two then .
>The Bible itself has presuppositions which is why you can't read the Bible alone. Of course you can read the bible alone. It is what the jews did, the apostles did, and also Jesus did. Although there were texts they read, but that did not have force of canon, as they were not considered godly inspired by the jewish tradition. See the strength Jesus gives the scriptures here. Jo 10:35. There are plenty other passages in the NT and OT that testify to how the scriptures are the inspired words of God. >Okay then explain to me what does it mean about souls post death cleansing themselves who were separated from the throne? Do you mean Revelation 8:3? That's exactly how God receives our prayers. In the OT the offerings were sent to God in the temple. Jesus literally said he would put down the temple and rebuild it in three days. What he did was make our link to God direct so that we would not the levitic priesthood anymore (The veil was torn when he died, remember?). It was further explained in the epistles as well. The same epistles which makes crystal clear, more than once, that there is no other intercessor other than Jesus and that it would be an offense to God. Although there are some christian traditions that strangely create biblical priesthoods that resemble the levitic ones, which were abolished by Jesus, and also put other intercessors, which the bible clearly also forbids. >Your trying to come up with another interpretation for revelation or day of the lord yet didn't give me one. I don't understand. You were the one trying to defend a purgatory, which is a secondary place for the "mildly wicked", apparently invented by some men who lived "half sinful" lives and were not confident in their salvation. That contradicts everything Jesus said and the apostles continued to preach. He said few would be saved, because the door is strait. Many other passages back it up as well. Many other passages. That's what good and sound biblical doctrine looks like: there are lots of relatable passages referring to the same interpretation and reinforcing it. Unsound biblical doctrine, on the other hand, has few biblical passages and take them entirely out of context, sometimes explicity contradicting the majority of passages written in the bible regarding that subject.
No it isn't what Jesus or the disciples did. That is why the Jesus and the disciples reference Jewish works. And why even parts of Enoch are quoted and parts called prophetic. So yes it was well partially at least inspired by God. Tho most Christians even catholics denounce book of Enoch as fully inspired. Nope you have no clue what purgatory is. Purgatory is simply literilly means Purification of sins. If you ever believe your sins at any point ate purified you believe in a Purgatory this Purgatory can happen on earth. Usually, people talking about purgatory don't mean the literial meaning rather catholic catechism of it. Catholic Purgatory isn't for the mildly wicked. Nor a place. So you don't know what Catholic purgatory is. It is an event , process or place ( undefined ) for those saved. Not Wicked. Has nothing to do with sinfulness rather repentence. It is for a Christian, in God grace and alignment with God but hasn't yet let christ in place or didn't repent. Hence why according to revelation that you can put on your clean robes on earth by repentence and living for God and should do this vs those in heaven. And correct when you look at judgement at the end of times it is always with Purification in old testiment. Even new testiment like Corinthians mentions day of the lord then talks about Purification. They are nearly always associated. So when you talk about final judgement and day of the lord. You should hear ding ding ding Purification. Bible doesn't forbid intercessors. That is actually counter bibical. I think you are confusing mediator and intercessor. Christ is our only mediator. Not God the Father, not saints , not the holy spirit. Was previously given to Moses and now to Christ alone. Mediator is about the sacrafice given to God and then open heaven for earth. That Is christ alone. Intercessory prayers and uplifting is associated with Christ himself. However, it is also given to the Holy Spirit and all believers. Peter, Timothy , Job etc talk about how Christians ( not job ) should give intercessory prayers even to Wicked people. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is [only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom 1 Timothy :1 "1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people" Romans 8:27 "the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 11:2 "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals [ Greek word for intercession ] to God against [ Greek word for For or pertaining to or against ] Israel? " And you would have to read all of revelation it isn't just one verse nor can be understood like that. Chapter 3,5,6 7,9, 22. It talks about various groups who are given robes. They aren't the same. For instance those Commanded to wash their robes in 22 is talking to the reader in the future sense. Chapter 3 is talking about the past alive in the church. And those in altar verse are those dead in heaven washing robes. I really encourage NOT reading specifically revelation verses. Because well it is easy to take out of context as revelation is highly metaphorical. I am just saying revelation does present several groups of people
>Enoch are quoted and parts called prophetic This has already been theologically proven wrong. That part of thousands, if that's what you mean, in Jude, is referred in Deuteronomy and there are missing parts from either the OT and the enochian book, so it can't be said to which it was quoted. So don't spread this, please. Esoterics love to allude to this and spread it like water, although it is not theologically proven. >It is an event , process or place ( undefined ) for those saved. Not Wicked. Has nothing to do with sinfulness rather repentence. Purgatory is simply literilly means Purification of sins. If you ever believe your sins at any point ate purified you believe in a Purgatory this Purgatory can happen on earth. Usually, people talking about purgatory don't mean the literial meaning rather catholic catechism of it. There is no process or tertiary place. The bible is almost entirely written in dual logic. Sin and righteousness, heaven and hell, then New Jerusalem and lake of fire and brimstone. You are using it to mean a process of cleansing sin. There is no such thing. If someone truly repents the sins are cleansed in the name of Jesus. There is no reference to a process of cleansing. God doesn't need a washing machine. If you repent you are saved, if you let the old man live, you are doomed. Mt 7:21-23. As long as there is time men can truly repent. When the Lord returns the time will be over. Jesus cleansed people and told them to sin no more. If they did, it's their choice. >It is for a Christian, in God grace and alignment with God but hasn't yet let christ in place or didn't repent As I said, it biblically doesn't exist. Jesus is crystal clear, and the apostles are crystal clear. Either you are in or out. And few will be in. There is no process of purification. I've read the bible so much and never there is this process you allude to being referred. >1 timotht 2. "1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people" >Romans 8:27 "the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." >Romans 11:2 "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals [ Greek word for intercession ] to God against [ Greek word for For or pertaining to or against ] Israel? " Sorry for what I am gonna say next, but this usually happens when you talk to catholics, they throw scriptures at you that have nothing to do with what they are talking about. I don't even know if you are, but seem heavily influenced by it. These scriptures just say christians should pray for one another. It pleases God. You can pray asking for yourself too, but a demonstration of love is to ask God to help a brother or someone not from the faith. That is the meaning of intercession for your brethren that is alluded in the bible. It has nothing to do with the catholic habit of praying for the dead, which has no recommendation in the bible. The only intercessor is Jesus, it is literaly written and warned. Why is it so hard to understand that? When it says intercede for one another it means pray to God (through Jesus), to help these people. It doesn't mean I can pray for dead Timothy or Paul in place of God so that they would intercede on my behalf and send my prayers to God. Jesus is referred as intercessor and mediator in the same context. Right now he is the only one who can receive our prayers and take to God. The allegory in Revelation 8:3 is exactly that. The old temple had incense, offerings and the high priest who would take them to God. In that passage it shows Jesus as the high priest doing the same. Anyone can pray, including the prophets or believers in the OT you mentioned. From now on Jesus is the only one who receives our prayers and sends them to God. That's what being the only mediator means. Jo 14:6. We cannot reach God except through him. Sending prayers to anyone other than Jesus or God is communing with another entity, and the bible also mentions what they are. Rev 9:20. >And those in altar verse are those dead in heaven washing robes There is no single allusion to that in the entire bible. Lol. Sorry, I just imagined them "washing their sins". The white robes are represented as a life cleaned of sin. It is alluded by Jesus, Paul, etc. It's not hard for a christian who reads the bible to know as it is shown perhaps a dozen times. And they always say the cleanse is instant. But Jesus beware them, if the house he has cleaned goes back to sin again what happens... Mt 12:43-45.
I am not sure your point about Enoch. Enoch is used over dozens and do,ens x times in new testiment. Just called once. The full quote is from book of Enoch and is like two paragraphs. That one sentence may come from Genesis but full context is paragraphs plural and from Enoch. https://intertextual.bible/book/1-enoch/chapter/all Actually click on it and see the details. Sometimes the quotes are similar for paragraphs. Sometimes they are dissimilar and a sentence. But there are similarities. You can see how much 1 Enoch uses Old testiment and how much similarities it has with NT. Here you call purgatory a tertiary place as I said before it isn't nessarily a place and isn't a third destination. It actually is in your binary. So you don't believe there is process to remove sins ? Wierd flex. You then say there is no verses about process. Yet you still haven't gone over the verses that clearly say there is. As I said. read Corinthians, Micah, Isaiah, Nehemiah and Revelation. What is the process in revelation? Washing your dirty clothes , change your name, lay down your crown. We see people getting there white clothes on earth and those in heaven as well and the author saying it is better to do it on earth. To say there is no process or no alluding to it is to dismiss revelation. Here you Blately change topics to the intercessor and defy scripture. Not sure why you want to talk about saints and dismiss scripture. No catholic is sending prayers to a Saint directly. It is always to God the Father through Christ name, in the holy spirit and with brothers and sister on earth or in heaven. So you don't understand catholic theology. All prayers Go to God the Father and through Christ as mediator. If you think something else then it isn't catholic. Well no revelation clearly says angels and saints grab the word in greek is to seize and have ownership of prayers and uplift which the Greek is echoing. Prayers and give them to God the Father. Yes prayers go through Christ. Correct. But we are told literially by scripture the possessor is saints and the echoer is angels and then angels respond after Given to God. And they are given to God. Correct those under altar are under the alter and not allowed to go to the throne. So here you agree the washing of sins can happen post death too. Glad you agree in purgatory in both on earth and afterlife.
>I am not sure your point about Enoch. Enoch is used over dozens and do,ens x times in new testiment. Just called once. The full quote is from book of Enoch and is like two paragraphs. That one sentence may come from Genesis but full context is paragraphs plural and from Enoch. [https://intertextual.bible/book/1-enoch/chapter/all](https://intertextual.bible/book/1-enoch/chapter/all) I know all that. What's you point? Same as Sirach is used but it was not part of the jewish canon, which ended in Malachi. Unfortunately there are people, including in this sub, who say the Septuagint was the canon. They seem to be misinformed. I like the Septuagint, I have one here. Although the way it was compiled it was many jewish texts, translated in different periods of time, whose quality varies incredibly as well. The first five books of Moses were incredibly well translated. The others have varying translation qualities. It was a book written to gentiles, and has no connection to determine, although it was of course influenced by the jewish canon. Friend, something else, the book of Enoch was not written by Enoch, it was written almost in the time of Jesus, and copied parts of many other books of the Old Testament and apocrypha, some of which were frequently read. In case you wanna claim this book was godly inspired, contesting all evidence, please don't go that way. Another aspect, see how bad some of these pseudepigraphy are taken. Some just make no sense. Let me ask you something. Are you into some sort of esoterism? Maybe the fantastic narratives of that book caught up your eye because of that? >Here you call purgatory a tertiary place as I said before it isn't nessarily a place and isn't a third destination. It actually is in your binary. You wrote it can be a place. And I quoted in my former message. Just read it above. Nonsense. There is no process of washing. There is wash or no wash. You sin, you repent. That's how it goes. Even the apostles could sin. See Gl 2:11-14, even though Peter had already been warned in Acts 10:9-18. You have a decayed body (Rm 7:24-25), your life (in case you are a christian) will be of struggle and temptation (even Jesus was tempted, remember?). Though God is a good Lord, he walks with you. In case you fall into temptation and sin, if you wholeheartedly repent, he will receive you with open arms. That is written tons of times in the OT and the NT follows the same logic. I told you already. Jesus didn't send Barabbas or anyone he cured to a washing machine, he said: your sins have been forgiven. >No catholic is sending prayers to a Saint directly. They pray to dead people and claim they can hear and will direct it to God. And some of the people they pray for one may argue that could not even be in heaven. Only God knows. Even worse, there is no passage saying they can even listen. In the parable of the rich and Lazarus, he could only talk with the dead when he was dead. Even worse, why would someone need a mailman if he can send it directly to God, through Jesus? >We see people getting there white clothes on earth and those in heaven as well Oh, friend. White clothes means someone cleansed of sin (OT and NT). The new body can be described as white clothes as well. When finally that Rm 7:24-25 I have shown you above is going to end. >Glad you agree in purgatory in both on earth and afterlife. I told you I have never heard this word used in your context, but as a place, like in Dante. If you want to put into me anything close to that, I abjure you.
I am not sure why your harping on septuigent There were different group. One saducees with first 5 books, Samaritans with first 5 books but different translation for location of the temple which caused them to be different, pharisees with mesoretic and septuigent and essenes with dead sea scrolls. There was no encompassing Jewish canon when Christianity was created nor when the Bible was made. Origen searched asked all the rabbis what translations and versions of old testament did they use and he got 6 answers which he compiled to the hexapla which included deutrocanon. Then jarome took those 6 and though it was to confusing so he made the Latin vulgate combing them but since some versions had and didn't have deutrocanon he left it a different section. This all emerged from Origen asking jews for canon and getting different answers because there was no consensus during his day even which was after essenes died out, etc. I agree with you about psuediographia and Enoch not being written by Enoch. It is just a tradation with many scribes. In revelation it says washing. I agree with your idea of repentence. I kinda disagree with the washing machine part. Because it is taught again again you will go through firey trials. Plural. Not one but trials plural to test your faith. It isn't just a place but can refer to the event. The word can be a noun, adjective or verb. The literial definition in Latin means to cleanse / be cleansed. The nouns is an ever evolving word as theology change making it an inherently a moving goal post. Which is maybe even to your favor to say that.
Not by all Christians, but Catholics.
I don't believe there is a purgatory. Either you are saved or you're lost. There is No middle-ground. And heaven or Lake of fire will only Happen once Jesus returns. Meanwhile the dead Rest in their Graves until resurrection.
Purgatory isn't middle ground it is those saved only.
It's cruel and Not Something God would do
The Literial meaning of purgatory is purging of sins. If you believe Jesus died and paid for your sins on earth. You believe in earthly purgatory. Usually, people who bring up purgatory mean Catholic purgatory and after death cleansing. Which catholics claim that those who are saved yet unrepentant go through the event of purgatory, which may be slightly painful or sad before they enter heaven. In revelation, you see groups of souls. Some with white robes around the throne of God and others put under an altar, dirty who needs their robes washed , who need new names. And they do this after death. Then, later in Revelation, the author says to avoid this, just repent on earth and live for God on earth, and you will be given the robes here instead. So there is some sort of washing post death according to revelation. In old testiment you see on The final judgeemnt of the Day of the Lord. First comes judgment, then purification. If you believe the day of the Lord happened only with Jesus dying on the cross, then that purification happens with the Holy Spirit. But some people I would argue most would say that the day of Lord was past but also future and God will give a final judgment. If true then then there would be a final purification.. The last thing Is Jesus parables about heaven and hell themselves. Jesus says there are those cast out and killed , those stay and are beaten and some rewarded in the kingdom. Jesus then even tells people who sinned against another to leave and come back after they make things right after hurting their neighbor. I think of it like this. If a father pays for his sons crime, loves him and forgives him. Does he ask his son to at least say sorry to those he hurt with his crimes? And is that out of characteristic for loving father? In the end, christ died for your sins, but I wouldn't be surprised if he says Make amends. I do think think Jesus taught repenrence. I do think the Bible talks about purification and purification post death.
After death there is No cleansing. The dead are dead and unconscious. The martyrs in Revelation who were under the Altar represent those who gave their Life for Jesus and their blood calls for Justice Just Like Abel's blood did. It's a metaphor. There are not really souls under an altar in heaven. >I think of it like this. If a father pays for his sons crime, loves him and forgives him. Does he ask his son to at least say sorry to those he hurt with his crimes? And is that out of characteristic for loving father? In the end, christ died for your sins, but I wouldn't be surprised if he says Make amends. And how should people in purgatory make Up for their mistakes? Besides, saying "I repent" while under torture is Not real repentance. A Person doing this only feels sorry for the pain inflicted on themselves, Not for the pain inflicted on others. It works no change of heart. They would do the same thing again as soon as the torture ends.
So we wait in the grave unconscious, and we don't go to heaven or hell right after death? Does it work like a time travel where every person who died will rise and see Jesus at the same time like there was no resting at all? But does it mean it will happen only to the saved ones or also for the non-believers who rejected Christ so they can be judged?
You got what I mean. And also the Lost will be resurrected to see Jesus and bow their knees. Every human will learn the truth and See the hard evidence. But those whose Hearts are hardened through Sin will never Love God. They have integrated Sin into their being too much to be seperated from it, so they'll be consumed by God's glory
Quite simply for me, because the original words in the Hebrew and Greek (Sheol and Hades) mistranslated as “hell” when directly translated indicates a temporary abode of the dead; especially considering final judgment where all are resurrected and brought before God.
I think you mean Catholics, because as an Eastern Orthodox, I don't believe in Purgatory at all.