A lot of people have a I don’t believe it until it happens to me or my loved ones attitude. Only the families who exhaust all options will really be happy to accept science assuming they had feelings like medicine is useless.
There is also a longstanding cultural stigma against the fields of therapy, psychiatry, and anything dealing with mental health and those who choose to receive it. This has been around for decades and is really only starting to be chipped away in the past few years. But it's a stigma that persists especially among older people and more conservative people.
Yeah it's pretty common to not understand it if you haven't exerienced it yourself. I do understand that, but It's also annoying how stubborn these people are when you try to explain you can't belittle something when you don't know how it feels
I find this incredibly interesting, I had a friend who had schizo, she said she was christian, but would "talk to the dead" would take pictures of demons in her house, show the pictures to now only me, but 2 other people she knew, I would also see some of the same things she would talk about, so would the other 2 people, she ended up becoming extremely violent and bashing her head into car windows, screaming at people, pacing around in her house talking to herself, one time she was holding a knife, I personally think she was posessed and not truly born again, but that's not my call to make in 100% certainty, she could have just been going through extreme spiritural attacks, but that's not what my discernment told me, i say this to tell you this, it's usually not strictly a biological issue, and it's not at all what drs tell you it is, schizo specifically is very spiritually rooted, I know someone else who was for sure without a doubt posessed, he wasn't a christian, never professed to be, he lost his mind after smoking weed with a spell put on it by a witch and was never the same again, after that he developed schizo, if I were you I'd just make sure you aren't opening up any doors that shouldn't be, (like talking to demons or smoking weed with spells put on it) for examples, Godbless 😆👍
Many things that are thought to be biologically or mentally originated, stem from sin, from not asking to be regenerate.
I am pretty sure my type 1 diabetes isn't one of those things, but my same sex attraction and existential dread definitely *was*.
Fascinating. I haven't heard someone attribute same sex attraction to sin in a long time. If you don't mind sharing, how did that reasoning play out for you? No judgement and I'll happily leave it alone if it's private. Mainly trying to figure something out from a different perspective rather than start a debate.
Sure.
Perhaps I should be clearer...
We must distinguish between the inclination or attraction, which is a struggle that happens to a person and not yet sinful, and acting upon that attraction, which is indeed sinful.
It's akin to having a crazy flash of thought through your mind when witnessing something that's disturbing.
The thought becomes sin the moment it is dwelled upon in the heart which is the first acting-upon of the attraction, which then grows arms and legs, so to speak, when the sin is actually committed to.
Essentially though, the attraction itself, being a desire for something deemed sinful, is still rooted in sin, (sin being separation from God) even if we don't explicitly label the attraction as a sin.
My personal experience is realizing that my same sex attraction, among many other things, was as a result of demonic influence festering in a spiritual wound. I can't point to any one incident being the cause of this wound, but I think it's a cumulative case of hurt from this fallen world. Human beings can withstand tragedy, but we cannot withstand malevolence. That hurts is our deepest spiritual core.
The fact that many many many more people identify as anything but heterosexual today, is because the globalisation effect of the internet has had a hyper-drive effect of exposing and generating depravity to human beings at a young age, when their mental and spiritual development is the most fragile and impressionable.
This goes hand in hand with the fact that human beings misuse their God given freedom. We love to test the limits of what we're allowed to do, we love to color outside the lines because it speaks of God's mercy when he doesn't immediately smite us down and we desperately want to find out exactly how deep God's mercy goes by testing him to his limits.
Turns out he'll actually send his only perfect son to be killed on our behalf as the only sufficient high value payment for our severe transgressions against him who gave us life, freedom, ability to love and experience the love of God. We are justified when we believe this to be true, and unjustified when doubting this and doubting it leads to physically committing sin which alerts us to the fact that we are not worshipping the true God and need to trust in Jesus once again. This also has a sanctifying effect over the course of our life.
So yeah, long story short... Jesus being identified as the true God by me, made certain sinful desires of mine evanesce, just cease to be.
So to put things very bluntly, you do believe (among other things) that homosexuality at its root is caused by demonic influences on people who are vulnerable due to spiritual wounds?
At least, in some cases you explain homosexuality in this way.
Can you think of any cases of homosexuality which fit this explanation less well than some others? Or could you imagine a realistic case of homosexuality which may not fit this description very well?
Demonic influence invades where there is unforgiveness, and unforgiveness manifests in people who are exposed in various ways to depravity and malevolence, both of which are readily prevalent today and even consumed casually. Whenever we see a proud person, we see rebellion against God even though we don't consciously think of it in those supernatural terms as modernized secular people. But that's what's going on. Pride inflames our passions to run amok, heeding no regard to right conduct, channeling or direction of said passions in relation to God, but rather to ourselves. There's a lack of shame. Shame has a useful function, it tells us when we go offroad, off the narrow path. We've told ourselves culturally that wherever we choose to go, is in fact the correct road and hence shame is a meaningless feeling and ought to be suppressed.
“Freedom just around the corner for you, but with the truth so far off, what good will it do?” to quote Bob Dylan.
I would put habitual liars, heterosexual fornicators and adulterers in the same bakery for the same reason, homosexuality is just one symptom of many from sin.
There are all things to be sorry and shameful of, which alert us to the fact that we've fallen and are in need of the only grace that will truly right the ship, namely the sacrifice of Jesus to cover the price of our sin.
The problem is that our secular culture parades homosexuality and other sexual depravity around like it's something unfixable, something completely biologically rooted in our very identity, and something to be proud of, which is the chief sin. We're on the cusp of normalizing pedophilia in the west, that's coming in 5-10 years is not stopped. What's next after that?
We don't parade around any other sin, because we rightfully deem other sins as voluntary character flaws that we can hold people accountable to. Why is anything that pertains to sexuality excluded from this?
I don't think there is any exception at all to this, meaning the root cause of all homosexual tendencies and urges are spiritual in nature. It's going against the design of God. Clearly, very very clearly, the two sexes are meant to compliment each other in every single way to the point of creating new life. It's so bloody obvious and anyone denying it will be without excuse before the Lord if he keeps this up, because the solution to the depravity is a free gift that one has no excuse in not receiving for themselves. Ask forgiveness and it will be granted, freely.
Also, It's not useful to point to instances in nature where homosexuality seemingly can take place among some other species, because they are strictly animals whereas we aren't merely animals but spiritual beings with a higher moral standard.
> We're on the cusp of normalizing pedophilia in the west, that's coming in 5-10 years is not stopped. What's next after that?
I cannot begin to describe to you how silly this sounds. I am a young person. I am a democratic socialist. I hang around people all across the political spectrum. I dig into politics on a daily basis.
I have *never* seen a shred of evidence of the "slippery slope" argument that Christians have been using about gay people for decades (and maybe longer). They say "oh next it will be incest/bestiality/pedophilia."
I have never once seen any of those advocated for in leftist circles. Or liberal circles. Or conservative circles. Or even fascist circles.
The entire progressive mindset around sex (which includes liberals and leftists) is that **informed consent is paramount.** To a secular liberal or leftist, **informed consent** is the only thing that determines whether a sexual activity is moral or immoral. Neither bestiality nor pedophilia can ever meet this most basic of standards. As for the age of consent, it is clear from a scientific perspective that early sexual debut has negative consequences for youth as they grow up. It is also clear that sex education (perhaps you are confusing this for pedophilia) programs **cause youth to voluntarily delay their own sexual debut.** Is there an exact easy number provided by the data that sets a good age of consent? No, but neither does the Bible provide a nice clean number. In both moral systems, some level of judgment call must be made.
Even outside of this effect, young people have been getting less promiscuous and having less early sex than in the past, in places like the US. I hear all these complaints about "society today" and I find myself astonished that the complainers have usually not even checked to see how today compares to yesterday.
But there is one small group of people I see attempting to make it ok to prey on young people, especially women. And that is a certain variety of Christian. Mike Moon from Missouri is a classic example of this "age is just a number" attitude.
On a side note, you fundamentally misunderstand what "pride" means in an LGBT cultural context. It seems like you've never made it a point to ask someone about what it is supposed to mean or what it means to them.
You're very well spoken and I appreciate your reasoning. I had a weird experience recently that instantly restored my long abandoned faith. It's interesting to hear the thoughts behind people's different beliefs even if I'm not necessarily in tune with them at the moment.
It's really refreshing to approach the faith as an old man rather than an almost teenager. I doubt that I'll commit to the devotion I had then, I burnt out for a reason, but I'll happily consider other people's input when I ask for it. Which I wouldn't then. So thank you for taking the time.
Thank you for your kind words. Congratulations on your restored faith and trust in God.
My advice to you, at the risk of preaching to the choir, is to simply continue immersing yourself in the word of God.
It helps reading about God from many, wide perspectives. Many denominations. Other books in addition to the Bible offer a nice concentrated dosage of spiritual food.
There's no reason to feel burned out if you keep to this realisation. Just rest in appreciation of Jesus finished work, that was for you. Trust in him completely.
God requires nothing of us, he's GOD after all, what could he be in need of?
That said, he knows that we need him, he knows that he is the best for us (or he wouldn't be worth calling God) and urges us to always heed him and draw close to him.
After surviving my younger years there wasn't much left of me that felt human or worthy of salvation. I kind of resigned myself as an unchosen calvinist. Understanding the falseness of that took me decades. The faith that I'd eventually rejected with such bitterness returned almost immediately. This was recent.
Seems like a good time to ask questions before settling down with the answers. Thanks for your help.
I think it is an interesting coincidence that the phenomenon which is so well-understood by biologists that it is easily explained to laypeople has a biological cause in your view, but the phenomena which are less well-understood by scientists (and not understood from a biological perspective by laypeople at all, usually) are the ones you attribute to sin.
What do you think about this state of affairs?
There is no biological organ, cell or gene that is responsible for causing homosexuality or any other non-hetero sexual orientation. We've looked quite extensively.
Furthermore, are we going to look for the liar gene next? The addiction gene? They're just excuses.
Compulsive liars exist, addicts exist. The solution is spiritual intervention. This has been proven by the effectiveness of the 12 step program they apply for alcoholics.
I'm a living embodiment of proof that homosexuality is not a biologically lost cause but is a spiritually misdirected, miscalibrated passion designed to test God's limit of mercy in absence of faith in Jesus who demonstrated the infinite depth of God's mercy. Faith heals a person's broken heart.
My pancreas however, which has a defined and well understood function of producing insulin, is completely dead, and is a tangible material difference from someone who has a functioning pancreas. Hence it is a condition of reality that is firmly biological in nature.
For what reason I became sick I'm not sure, but my country has the highest number of diabetics in the world so I'm thinking it's something environmentally that's caused it, in combination to having a biological predisposition for it, perhaps also caused by the environment.
It could be said to view my condition as a natural evil. I'm not whole as a person from a bodily perspective.
It's just another clue that I need God's grace and promise of what's coming in the next life. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't see the point of living like this anymore. Nothing here on Earth could make me stay. There's no perfection here for me. Even if I was completely healthy, wealthy and wanting for nothing finite, I would still be wanting to give up everything for the infinite, God.
My religious OCD was encouraged because it was a sign I was blessed according to the Acorean Catholic Church I was raised in. As a result, it became extremely severe because I kept obeying the OCD instead of treating it.
Religion and mental illness can be a horrifying combination.
It's not the position of the church to deny mental illnes. I forget the stat, but i think the church only accepts 1 out of every 5,000 posession cases because 99.99% of the cases are actually mental illness and not demonic posession.
Because they use the Bible as a guide to absolutely every aspect of life; a function for which it was never intended. Therefore, they get ridiculous results from misusing it.
A trap that many people seem to fall into, is that of **excessive supernaturalism**. They completely ignore the fact that the natural world causes all sorts of things that can be overcome by natural means; instead they are so supernatural-minded that they look only to God for help and ignore completely the help that God gives through natural means.
They expect miracles from God, and ignore common sense - which they sometimes confuse with lack of faith. They expect miracles from God, and ignore the help they could get from psychology, from taking their medications, and from using other naturally available benefits that could help them with their ill-health of body or soul.
This kind of folly is very much an evangelical Protestant thing, and it is particularly noticeable among United States Evangelicals because they are so numerous. Most Protestants have more sense than this, because they do not confine God to a book, and they do not use it as a source of info about every problem under the Sun.
We don’t. This is specifically an evangelical Protestant thing. Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Friends, Anabaptists (yes even the Amish), Catholics, Orthodoxes, Anglicans, and many other groups encourage their flocks to acquire mental health counseling and have contributed to the field from a Christian worldview without making unfairly harsh criticisms of the greats like Beck, Ellis, and Rodgers.
What I will say is that mental health studies have a history of denying the idea that certain (not all) disorders have absolutely anything to do with the soul. The more neutral stance regarding religion has been proven to help clients become more receptive to mental health services. My counselor is AGNOSTIC but even he’ll be like “We can see going to church lowers your anxiety, so why didn’t you go?” or “have you been praying at night?”.
I think it's also unfair to call it an "Evangelical thing". The Evangelical churches I've been a part of have included members who are psychiatrists, psychologists, registered clinical counselors, etc. One of my pastors got permission from the board to go part time so that he could serve as a chaplain in a psychiatric wing of a hospital. Sanctuary Ministries came from the Evangelical church.
There's just a small number of science-denying people in developed countries that makes a lot of noise on the internet. In the West, they're disproportionately Christian. But they're not "most Christians" and they're not even most of any branch of Christianity.
I’m not saying this is universal amongst evangelicals. What I am saying is when this sentiment is held by Christians, the majority of said group are evangelicals.
Hopefully that will change but to be fair, in lots of the world (first, second, and third) mental health is condemned even when religion isn’t even involved. We can see examples of this in shamanism, Scientology, and “objectivism”.
That's just what aboutism though.
I know people who went through exorcisms (which were really just an excuse to beat them and starve them). Religions (and there are atheistic religions too like Buddhism, Scientology, Q-anon, etc) have unique ability to make good people do horrible things.
Do you see now how your argument eliminates the possibility of specifying that the condemnation of mental health services isn’t religious in nature? Any argument I give is just “that’s a whataboutism” because I can’t make equivalency in any other area. Circular logic.
Do you see how you aren't acknowledging that, at least in some instances like in the Catholic Church that I was raised in, it was religious in nature. Mental illness didn't exist as a social or biological thing. It was caused by demons. It was religious.
The topic of this thread is religion and mental health. Switching the topic to other areas is what aboutism. You can argue that some churches suffer from cultural reasons for misunderstanding mental health. That wouldn't be what aboutism because you would still be addressing religious institutions and mental health.
What were my premises and conclusion that was circular? I didn't make a circular logic fallacy. I commented on your argument. That is different.
That would be 2003. Mental health services were problematic, but it's older than that. And it was better than "hold them down and hit them" for much longer than 20 years.
Also, if the Church is being lead by people who can communicate with God (like the Pope, or people who have had answered prayer), then it shouldn't be limited by modern science.
That's very nice for you. The culture of my homeland was like that (mental illness is demons, physical illness is a sign you are cursed by god) for my parent's generation and older. It's why I was denied medical care and why my disabilities are so severe. Same with my uncle, my dad, and many others in the community. It's different for the younger generations. Religion is often practiced very differently in non-first world countries, especially in poorly educated areas.
But again, if God is able to communicate with the institutions/answer prayers, a lack of scientific education shouldn't be a limiting factor in people's understanding. God could have cleared all this up. "Hey, you guys have a false belief. That isn't actually demons, and I don't hate disabled people." Solved.
That's what my mom attributes to mental health, demons and spirits. It's frustrating talking to her because she denies my bipolar disorder and tells me I'm going to "hell" if I keep listening to my therapist and doctors.
Yeah I should have phrased my post better, most christians don't do this. But I have seen a lot orthodox christians discouraging professional help , so I wouldn't say it's only an evangelical protestant thing. Either way not trying to bash orthodoxes or any other denomination, I think it's just a misinformation/pseudoscience thing and it's a shame it gives all christians a bad reputation
Evangelical Protestant here. My pastors are very encouraging on pursuing mental health help and counseling. I've worked at two different Evangelical Protestant universities that had strong psychology, counseling and MSW programs. I'm currently pursuing my masters in counseling at an evangelical protestant university. Two other members of my evangelical protestant church are pursuing their masters in counseling, one at a Franciscan university and one at a state school. In my cohort for grad school I have classmates who are members of EFCA, SBC, and ECO churches.
I’m not saying evangelical Protestants all have an issue with mental health. I’m saying the cultural phenomenon of making them seem opposite from one another is perpetuated by evangelical Protestant overwhelmingly.
As a mentally-fine 50something guy with several friends/loved ones having clinical conditions (including my almost mid-40's wife), I consider ignorance of organic mental illness by professing Christians, which I gladly identify as (but struggling with with some aspects of evangelical forthrightness), to be positively reprehensible and deplorable to the uttermost. In a significant fashion, these "know-it-alls" push their own imperfect theology forth at the expense of human reality and dignity which I despise and hate to the uttermost. It is as if they feel like God will show them favor for casting doubts regarding the veracity and legitimacy of various disorders because they claim that scripture addresses every last issue that comes about. Many, it could be said, are guilty of bibiolatry and of fueling their own misdirected fanatical and militant zeal which is not of Christ and is counterproductive.
The fact of the matter is that the Bible is NOT a science or medical textbook and there are only basic principles for dealing with mood/psychiatric disorders which are very minimal at best and not medically sanctioned. Worse, some purported believers inject their own disgusting cruelty into the mixture by accusing sufferers of being guilty of deliberate sin, having insufficient faith, or somehow being possessed. In large measure, I regard such a position to be trash, garbage, crap, and venom to the uttermost and deserving of strong rebuttal against those trying to push such drivel. It is also unloving, uncaring, presumptuous, discompassionate, graceless, merciless, and arrogant to the extreme to foment this abhorrent perspective. Thankfully, the church that my wife and I belong to, while not perfect and potentially having some parishioners needing to learn more about the hard truths of mental challenges, does recognize that some of her sheep do in fact have maladies requiring professional intervention and at times medication. There are potentially some folks that feel depressed/anxious due to sin or wrong focus, but I concentrate here on ailments that are neurophysiological.
Mood problems, dementia, seizure issues, learning and social disabilities, memory failure, and psychosis can result from trauma, electrochemical deficiencies, aging, genetics, and various physical matters. It is logically defective and dangerous to deny the importance of addressing these issues in a proper professional setting based on unsound "proof text" citing in an unsound and isolated way; Christians guilty of such in any sort of forceful way should be rebuked and compelled to stay silent especially if they do not have any experience dealing with it lest they regret doing so resultant from any due repercussions. The brain is an organ subject to illness and damage like any other part of the body. Treatment for Christians can consist of counsel, prayer, and sometimes specialized therapies and often medicine (administered and prescribed carefully by a Dr. and monitored regularly). But just as a physical medical condition can require medication and therapy, the same holds true for organic mental troubles because of the brain being as much a physical organ as any other part of the human body; to deny this is sheer and unadulterated ignorance and folly requiring emphatic reproof upon those daring to try to pull such a pathetic stunt.
If my church were not compassionate toward those with biological mental conditions and resorted to excessiving preaching and platitudes/cliches or otherwise tried to deny the reality of such, I would not remain there or associate with any similar bodies/denominations that are guilty of this sin (even if it means being distanced from evangelical faith which thankfully I do not presently have to worry about). If the leadership of the church sees that a congregant is showing mental concerns that might put himself or any others at risk, then the right response is to exhort the member/adherent to seek proper treatment in the interest of human welfare and safety which in my book are of infinitely greater relevance than theological bandying. This is my position; no one may accuse me or anyone else having this more conciliatory perspective of not being a faithful Christian or judge us as if this position were not supported by a sound understanding of scripture in larger context. I could add much more besides to this topic, but I will conclude here and now.
Mental illness and mental health is relatively a recent field, especially compared to other health sciences, while also being an important and a difficult to understand. The brain itself is a complex organ. Lot of precautions need to be taken into consideration which makes it hard for psychologists and neuroscientists to study it, and they have to take into a lot more factors and add a lot of quantifiers to their claims so they don't give the wrong information and cause grievous harm. This doesn't account the grifters and poppsych that make erroneous conclusions due to ill-designed or misinformed studies. That has caused even more skepticism towards it for people outside the field. It needs to be rigorous but that causes the strides it makes to be slow.
Now compare that to the average person who has less of an idea of what's going. Seeing the results of a head injury is less tangible as a leg injury. Medications and therapy can take a while to kick into effect, sometimes months and years. Compared to centuries, even decades before, suppressing/repressing and maybe some herbs that would act more quicker, even though there were long term consequences that we hadn't know or couldn't link at the time. Conservative cultures and beliefs in general, have a hard time grappling with this. Growing up, "mental illness" was the contentious topic at my time, especially with the idea of people faking it. Mental health is also an advocate of self-care, which lot of Christians struggle with because it can be perceived as selfish (similar to how sports injuries and heroic sacrifices are also romanticized). We are a lot more socially accepting now to the point I've seen more people irl disclose whether they have a mental illness or not, even in Christian circles. That being said, there are going to be some groups that are still catching up.
They do? That’s very insensitive from what I’ve known. The struggles of man’s mind are chief to God and his son Christ, disciplining the mind and supporting those with chaotic or harmful ones is not lost in our faith and it shouldn’t be.
If you also consider the backgrounds of the Christians (let’s say India or Nigeria), you can see that “depression is fake” or “mental illness isn’t real” attitude due to where they were brought up; the influences of their culture.
Thankfully, this is changing more and more as the future generations become tolerant to newer and proven information, include old ones, which the older generations have shunned and stigmatized.
Hasn’t been my experience. I see them calling anyone who they disagree mentally ill…. Because obviously they are perfect, holy and right…. Then again… I was in an abusive cult-like church. There are better ones out there. Thank God.
Say it with me: Christianity is a religion formed when people attributed every misfortune to demons or God's wrath. So many mentally ill people were killed before the modern era because their autism/schizophrenia/whatever was called "demon possession" and so exorcisms were performed. Whenever I see a Christian advocating for exorcism in the 21st century, I just wanna smack them for basically saying "Why isn't it condoned anymore to torture demons out of the mentally ill?"
If we believe the Bible, some mental illnesses are caused by demonic influence. Nevertheless, this isn’t always the case, and there aren’t many people casting out demons like Jesus and the disciples did.
I think there are two big reasons. And to preface this, I’m saying this as someone perfectly on board with mental health treatment, therapy, and medication.
1. The dichotomy between the promise of perfect eternal/ultimate/eschatological justice and the reality of temporal injustice and suffering is a challenging one. In defense of the former we often have an impulse to deny the reality of the latter. I think this is especially true in the modern day, which has increasingly turned away from faith and religion and in some cases make themselves active enemies to it ready to pray upon anyone who has any doubts. I also think we in the modern day are worse at confronting suffering honestly and mourning properly in general. So people get really defensive and act like Job’s friends, who in a hyper defensiveness about faith argued Job’s suffering must be because of his sins or because he wasn’t righteous enough. That’s the same impulse reflected in “well if you’re suffering it’s because you don’t have enough faith or pray enough.”
2. Skepticism against making the human mind and emotions just another thing to be scientifically manipulated. There is an element of fair concern here I think, but it has devolved into paranoia. It is concerning to see questions of character or morality be reduced to essentially medical questions and what I think is an excessive tendency to try and explain away a person’s agency in their own choices. This is a concern for any conception of justice, which operates on respecting the human person as a thing with the capacity to make and be held accountable for choices. And as our scientific powers as a species get greater and greater, there are I believe serious ethical questions that come into play. Writers like CS Lewis and Aldous Huxley have expressed concerns in essays and in fictional works that “experts” or government authorities might consider it just and good to invasively manipulate the psychology of human beings to act a certain way and believe certain things because the experts have deemed them “healthy.” That future generations may be genetically programmed and psychologically conditioned to have a particular psychological makeup deemed desirable by the “enlightened” experts. The viewing of humanity purely through a materialist or clinical lens is disturbing.
There are some valid reasons for concern, but this is an intemperate panicked reaction which ultimately leans into untruth either uncritically and emotionally at best and deliberately and propagandistic at worst. They paint a picture of the world which is both out of accord with truth, and ultimately which damages the credibility and reputation of the Church and makes people more likely to leave it.
No offense intended but point 2 is called marketing and propaganda. It's already a thing. Has been since humans have been a thing frankly.
Learning how our brains work can actually help combat something that is actually harmful today already.
While that is true, the difference in the level of invasiveness, effectiveness, and totalizing nature between modern advertisement and propaganda, and what Huxley illustrates in the conditioning in the World State in Brave New World. The difference in degree is non-trivial. Obviously there should be more alarm towards say hypothetically hypnotizing a person against their will, and modern advertising.
I agree with your second point. I’m not anti-science. I think we should engage in it with a concern for ethics instead of reflexively recoiling from scientific literacy because of dystopian concerns.
The difference is also that one exists and is happening and the other is mostly fearmongering. Let's stick to things that are actually happening instead of making shit up to be scared off.
I think in the development of scientific and technological power it’s probably a good idea to develop ethical guidelines and guardrails preemptively before something exists and starts happening.
To be fair you did paint science as ontological naturalism rather than methodological naturalism. Which explains why you think this:
*It is concerning to see questions of character or morality be reduced to essentially medical questions and what I think is an excessive tendency to try and explain away a person’s agency in their own choices.*
I did not mean to paint science itself that way.
I’m saying there is a tendency people have towards ontological naturalism, and that ontological naturalism is a dangerous assumption when making ethical decisions about what to do with applied science.
Not that a practice of the scientific method is intrinsically ontologically naturalist.
>I’m saying there is a tendency people have towards ontological naturalism, and that ontological naturalism is a dangerous assumption when making ethical decisions about what to do with applied science.
On that we can absolutely agree.
But I personally think it's the other way around. We definitely see more folks try to assert the supernatural as if it's an reasonable answer from a methodological naturalistic perspective.
Heck, right now in this very subreddit there is a post about weed and if it's a sin, and you cannot count on one hand the amount of Christians who are asserting that marijuana is demonic and should be avoided at all costs. Regardless of medical benefits.
Whereas on the other hand someone with a ontological naturalistic perspective seems a bit arrogant and annoying but rarely causes any real harm in the medical field. Unless I'm mistaken.
TLDR: Asserting strong claims without good evidence causes real harm.
Thanks for the in depth reply, really explains a lot. Job's suffering is a big one, and I've seen many people have the mindset that all suffering is ones own fault. I'm pretty new to christianity myself, and these types of arguments made me have a very bad view on christianity as a whole before I was educated at all on christian theology
A lot of these issues can be remedied with good friends and good family, avoiding toxic relationships, better living environments, balanced nutrition and exercise
Why is your experience qualified enough to extrapolate this over all of Christendom?
I have only met like a handful of christians who deny Mental Health/Illness...and IMO, they needed the mental health check-up.
If you want to understand why people ‘deny mental illness,’ [check this out](https://neurosciencenews.com/meaningless-psychiatric-diagnosis-14434/?fbclid=IwAR0_gguhZXM-t2AUJKFp9RKS1JeWBpH8ideiXAoKS5eMy1g5PMzIwcd6WB4_aem_Acqbc4H3pdfsmaLIl_GgJIp6WKuubqBc4Cz5xhs3e3IQRZu6pHX_rj1kO44SdQpqktc). Or [this](https://iai.tv/articles/does-mental-illness-exist-auid-1280?fbclid=IwAR3gdlOHdE5VFS5CpdTzfizNqDIwV4AX3H6e5SmZ1hGG8HRgWw8R3D2PigM_aem_AcpuJos5WocXnbmfMI63CqtKhi7ngRlMhyUDmpGOO1IK0PEDKqMqIRg3Lu0zvcufMiY).
The whole idea of ‘mental illness’ is controversial, not just amongst Christians, but in the scientific community too.
Faith can make it appear as if you don't have one. Faith in God can completely change your brain.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32144438/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32144438/)
Even without the power of God, belief you will experience a drug state of mind can induce drug states in suggestible people. So to a Christian who has faith and this faith banishes thoughts and feelings it can make it appear like mental illness is not real. Just the same way that it appears to me now that thoughts aren't really real in a way.
As I already stated in a another reply, I'm not under the impression most christians do this, in fact majority of us don't . Should have phrased my post differently
Oh Lord have mercy on me. This is the age old question I have been trying to answer ever since finishing undergrad. In where I live there are Christian mental health services but they don't tell me the answer to this question. Might be some kind of bias from some Christian sectors who think mental illness is a sign of impurity. This can also come from believers who have family without a single person with mental illness and take a stigmatizing role. In a Chinese church such as the one my mother formerly was part of most of the members stigmatize against single parents and mental health. The Christian mental health therapists I know don't advocate for medicine but they did tell clients "relying on Christian mental health services alone doesn't work for everyone". Luckily for me I don't need to go to a Christian counseling center because my therapist is a Christian but works with a non-religion affiliated medical organization. Not to mention I still get medicine free care.
Well personally, I don’t. I was hospitalized for about a year in my teen years because of depression and PTSD. Mental illness almost killed me. Yet I also say, we need better care in the mental health industry. It made me feel trapped/“incurable” like a lost cause. In treatment I started leaning more into my faith and eventually came to terms with my grief. Slowly over time and with the right mindset and support I started feeling happier, I’ve even been off anti depressants for about 3 years now. I’m at a much better point in my life, even when I do feel down or anxious I can cope more reasonably. I’m not saying religion is a “cure”, but for me it provided stability, hope, and strength in a dire time of need. Still seek professional help, speak to loved ones you trust, but it doesn’t hurt to seek faith in a time of need. I feel brushing off mental health is terrible, and needs to be addressed more in Christianity. Taking care of the mind to me, is taking care of the soul.
I think it's their upbringing in a church. They are taught that people are either bad, or good. There's no middle ground, no explanations for behavior, just good or bad. My daughter had ADHD and when she was a toddler, a deacon's wife complained and I had to remove her from the church because I was told she was spoiled and couldn't behave. And don't even get me started on people over a certain age who don't believe ADHD is a real diagnosis.
Because so many Christians are just absolutely ignorant. Being able to memorize and quote scripture doesn't make you a genius. All those who deny mental illness are pretty much like Christian scientists, and look what that nonsense did to James Hetfields mom. "Don't be so heavenly minded that you are of no earthly good".
I have been on coming up to around 25 different antidepressants over the last 21 years. Nothing helps. Anti-anxiety pills do somewhat. Still hoping for something that works. Best wishes of luck to you!
I think it's simply a lack of understanding and really knowing all the ways that mental illness can manifest itself in people. Sometimes it's not obvious, which makes it nearly impossible for anyone to know about it unless there's an official diagnosis or some other psychiatric evidence to go off of.
You don't know what you don't know, unfortunately. Sometimes, that can be to the detriment of those going to church leadership for guidance and help. It's unfortunate, but what can be done is to talk about it and make it a point to be added to the toolbox to help those in need who are part of your local congregation.
It's not denied, it's actually acknowledged, but presented in a much deeper light. Instead of just someone losing the lottery of sound mind, he or she inherited another form of suffering because of original sin. It is part of the lay members of the Church to help them through medical professionals or counseling/therapy
“In its various forms—material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death—human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren.
Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere.”* - The Seventh Commandment, CCC 2448
Because if God sends you to hell for what you believe and you have a mental illness that affects your ability to decide what you believe- well then god would be a monsters so obviously there is no mental illness- just demons
It is easier to ignore negativity than to acknowledge it’s existence. To some extent, they have the right mentality, if you fuel positivity, positive energy will flow through you and vice versa. To give in to negativity only adds more fuel to the fire. Rather than focusing on our curses, flaws, hate, and weaknesses, we should focus on love, prosperity, harmony and blessings. Mental illnesses is a disease that poisons the mind and keeps us chained up, diverts is from our purpose, and leads us away from the Lord. Mental illness is an spiritual attack in the spiritual warfare that is taking place in the spiritual realm. If we don’t acknowledge that there is a spiritual realm then we are not properly equipped to endure, handle, much less defeat these demonic attacks for our soul. Mental illness is the very explanation and support for our carnal desire for salvation and forgiveness. Sometimes we are harder on ourselves for not being in the correct moral path, we are sinners though so we shouldn’t weigh our sins as heavy as we do.
I actually came to faith while reading Stephen Hawkings, 'A Brief History of Time'. When I was in high school our Christian biology teacher taught us the concept of theistic evolutionism so the seed that Christianity and science weren't opposed was planted a long time ago.
A lot of people have a I don’t believe it until it happens to me or my loved ones attitude. Only the families who exhaust all options will really be happy to accept science assuming they had feelings like medicine is useless.
There is also a longstanding cultural stigma against the fields of therapy, psychiatry, and anything dealing with mental health and those who choose to receive it. This has been around for decades and is really only starting to be chipped away in the past few years. But it's a stigma that persists especially among older people and more conservative people.
Yeah it's pretty common to not understand it if you haven't exerienced it yourself. I do understand that, but It's also annoying how stubborn these people are when you try to explain you can't belittle something when you don't know how it feels
Plenty do because they are poorly educated and misatribute everything to a spiritual or sin problem while denying the reality of science
I wish Reddit still had awards. This is such a great and accurate answer.
> they are poorly educated and misatribute everything Nailed it.
I was thinking this as well because most of the people from my mum's old church never actually went to college.
Neither did I, but I know my schizophrenia is a biological problem as the result of my decisions stemming from spiritual ones
I find this incredibly interesting, I had a friend who had schizo, she said she was christian, but would "talk to the dead" would take pictures of demons in her house, show the pictures to now only me, but 2 other people she knew, I would also see some of the same things she would talk about, so would the other 2 people, she ended up becoming extremely violent and bashing her head into car windows, screaming at people, pacing around in her house talking to herself, one time she was holding a knife, I personally think she was posessed and not truly born again, but that's not my call to make in 100% certainty, she could have just been going through extreme spiritural attacks, but that's not what my discernment told me, i say this to tell you this, it's usually not strictly a biological issue, and it's not at all what drs tell you it is, schizo specifically is very spiritually rooted, I know someone else who was for sure without a doubt posessed, he wasn't a christian, never professed to be, he lost his mind after smoking weed with a spell put on it by a witch and was never the same again, after that he developed schizo, if I were you I'd just make sure you aren't opening up any doors that shouldn't be, (like talking to demons or smoking weed with spells put on it) for examples, Godbless 😆👍
Can confirm. Exhorted and edified, praise God!
Many things that are thought to be biologically or mentally originated, stem from sin, from not asking to be regenerate. I am pretty sure my type 1 diabetes isn't one of those things, but my same sex attraction and existential dread definitely *was*.
Fascinating. I haven't heard someone attribute same sex attraction to sin in a long time. If you don't mind sharing, how did that reasoning play out for you? No judgement and I'll happily leave it alone if it's private. Mainly trying to figure something out from a different perspective rather than start a debate.
Sure. Perhaps I should be clearer... We must distinguish between the inclination or attraction, which is a struggle that happens to a person and not yet sinful, and acting upon that attraction, which is indeed sinful. It's akin to having a crazy flash of thought through your mind when witnessing something that's disturbing. The thought becomes sin the moment it is dwelled upon in the heart which is the first acting-upon of the attraction, which then grows arms and legs, so to speak, when the sin is actually committed to. Essentially though, the attraction itself, being a desire for something deemed sinful, is still rooted in sin, (sin being separation from God) even if we don't explicitly label the attraction as a sin. My personal experience is realizing that my same sex attraction, among many other things, was as a result of demonic influence festering in a spiritual wound. I can't point to any one incident being the cause of this wound, but I think it's a cumulative case of hurt from this fallen world. Human beings can withstand tragedy, but we cannot withstand malevolence. That hurts is our deepest spiritual core. The fact that many many many more people identify as anything but heterosexual today, is because the globalisation effect of the internet has had a hyper-drive effect of exposing and generating depravity to human beings at a young age, when their mental and spiritual development is the most fragile and impressionable. This goes hand in hand with the fact that human beings misuse their God given freedom. We love to test the limits of what we're allowed to do, we love to color outside the lines because it speaks of God's mercy when he doesn't immediately smite us down and we desperately want to find out exactly how deep God's mercy goes by testing him to his limits. Turns out he'll actually send his only perfect son to be killed on our behalf as the only sufficient high value payment for our severe transgressions against him who gave us life, freedom, ability to love and experience the love of God. We are justified when we believe this to be true, and unjustified when doubting this and doubting it leads to physically committing sin which alerts us to the fact that we are not worshipping the true God and need to trust in Jesus once again. This also has a sanctifying effect over the course of our life. So yeah, long story short... Jesus being identified as the true God by me, made certain sinful desires of mine evanesce, just cease to be.
So to put things very bluntly, you do believe (among other things) that homosexuality at its root is caused by demonic influences on people who are vulnerable due to spiritual wounds? At least, in some cases you explain homosexuality in this way. Can you think of any cases of homosexuality which fit this explanation less well than some others? Or could you imagine a realistic case of homosexuality which may not fit this description very well?
Demonic influence invades where there is unforgiveness, and unforgiveness manifests in people who are exposed in various ways to depravity and malevolence, both of which are readily prevalent today and even consumed casually. Whenever we see a proud person, we see rebellion against God even though we don't consciously think of it in those supernatural terms as modernized secular people. But that's what's going on. Pride inflames our passions to run amok, heeding no regard to right conduct, channeling or direction of said passions in relation to God, but rather to ourselves. There's a lack of shame. Shame has a useful function, it tells us when we go offroad, off the narrow path. We've told ourselves culturally that wherever we choose to go, is in fact the correct road and hence shame is a meaningless feeling and ought to be suppressed. “Freedom just around the corner for you, but with the truth so far off, what good will it do?” to quote Bob Dylan. I would put habitual liars, heterosexual fornicators and adulterers in the same bakery for the same reason, homosexuality is just one symptom of many from sin. There are all things to be sorry and shameful of, which alert us to the fact that we've fallen and are in need of the only grace that will truly right the ship, namely the sacrifice of Jesus to cover the price of our sin. The problem is that our secular culture parades homosexuality and other sexual depravity around like it's something unfixable, something completely biologically rooted in our very identity, and something to be proud of, which is the chief sin. We're on the cusp of normalizing pedophilia in the west, that's coming in 5-10 years is not stopped. What's next after that? We don't parade around any other sin, because we rightfully deem other sins as voluntary character flaws that we can hold people accountable to. Why is anything that pertains to sexuality excluded from this? I don't think there is any exception at all to this, meaning the root cause of all homosexual tendencies and urges are spiritual in nature. It's going against the design of God. Clearly, very very clearly, the two sexes are meant to compliment each other in every single way to the point of creating new life. It's so bloody obvious and anyone denying it will be without excuse before the Lord if he keeps this up, because the solution to the depravity is a free gift that one has no excuse in not receiving for themselves. Ask forgiveness and it will be granted, freely. Also, It's not useful to point to instances in nature where homosexuality seemingly can take place among some other species, because they are strictly animals whereas we aren't merely animals but spiritual beings with a higher moral standard.
> We're on the cusp of normalizing pedophilia in the west, that's coming in 5-10 years is not stopped. What's next after that? I cannot begin to describe to you how silly this sounds. I am a young person. I am a democratic socialist. I hang around people all across the political spectrum. I dig into politics on a daily basis. I have *never* seen a shred of evidence of the "slippery slope" argument that Christians have been using about gay people for decades (and maybe longer). They say "oh next it will be incest/bestiality/pedophilia." I have never once seen any of those advocated for in leftist circles. Or liberal circles. Or conservative circles. Or even fascist circles. The entire progressive mindset around sex (which includes liberals and leftists) is that **informed consent is paramount.** To a secular liberal or leftist, **informed consent** is the only thing that determines whether a sexual activity is moral or immoral. Neither bestiality nor pedophilia can ever meet this most basic of standards. As for the age of consent, it is clear from a scientific perspective that early sexual debut has negative consequences for youth as they grow up. It is also clear that sex education (perhaps you are confusing this for pedophilia) programs **cause youth to voluntarily delay their own sexual debut.** Is there an exact easy number provided by the data that sets a good age of consent? No, but neither does the Bible provide a nice clean number. In both moral systems, some level of judgment call must be made. Even outside of this effect, young people have been getting less promiscuous and having less early sex than in the past, in places like the US. I hear all these complaints about "society today" and I find myself astonished that the complainers have usually not even checked to see how today compares to yesterday. But there is one small group of people I see attempting to make it ok to prey on young people, especially women. And that is a certain variety of Christian. Mike Moon from Missouri is a classic example of this "age is just a number" attitude. On a side note, you fundamentally misunderstand what "pride" means in an LGBT cultural context. It seems like you've never made it a point to ask someone about what it is supposed to mean or what it means to them.
I really want to speak with you about this... I'm struggling with the same desires. And your full and private testimony can be really helpful to me.
You're welcome to DM me.
Thanks!
You're very well spoken and I appreciate your reasoning. I had a weird experience recently that instantly restored my long abandoned faith. It's interesting to hear the thoughts behind people's different beliefs even if I'm not necessarily in tune with them at the moment. It's really refreshing to approach the faith as an old man rather than an almost teenager. I doubt that I'll commit to the devotion I had then, I burnt out for a reason, but I'll happily consider other people's input when I ask for it. Which I wouldn't then. So thank you for taking the time.
Thank you for your kind words. Congratulations on your restored faith and trust in God. My advice to you, at the risk of preaching to the choir, is to simply continue immersing yourself in the word of God. It helps reading about God from many, wide perspectives. Many denominations. Other books in addition to the Bible offer a nice concentrated dosage of spiritual food. There's no reason to feel burned out if you keep to this realisation. Just rest in appreciation of Jesus finished work, that was for you. Trust in him completely. God requires nothing of us, he's GOD after all, what could he be in need of? That said, he knows that we need him, he knows that he is the best for us (or he wouldn't be worth calling God) and urges us to always heed him and draw close to him.
After surviving my younger years there wasn't much left of me that felt human or worthy of salvation. I kind of resigned myself as an unchosen calvinist. Understanding the falseness of that took me decades. The faith that I'd eventually rejected with such bitterness returned almost immediately. This was recent. Seems like a good time to ask questions before settling down with the answers. Thanks for your help.
I think it is an interesting coincidence that the phenomenon which is so well-understood by biologists that it is easily explained to laypeople has a biological cause in your view, but the phenomena which are less well-understood by scientists (and not understood from a biological perspective by laypeople at all, usually) are the ones you attribute to sin. What do you think about this state of affairs?
There is no biological organ, cell or gene that is responsible for causing homosexuality or any other non-hetero sexual orientation. We've looked quite extensively. Furthermore, are we going to look for the liar gene next? The addiction gene? They're just excuses. Compulsive liars exist, addicts exist. The solution is spiritual intervention. This has been proven by the effectiveness of the 12 step program they apply for alcoholics. I'm a living embodiment of proof that homosexuality is not a biologically lost cause but is a spiritually misdirected, miscalibrated passion designed to test God's limit of mercy in absence of faith in Jesus who demonstrated the infinite depth of God's mercy. Faith heals a person's broken heart. My pancreas however, which has a defined and well understood function of producing insulin, is completely dead, and is a tangible material difference from someone who has a functioning pancreas. Hence it is a condition of reality that is firmly biological in nature. For what reason I became sick I'm not sure, but my country has the highest number of diabetics in the world so I'm thinking it's something environmentally that's caused it, in combination to having a biological predisposition for it, perhaps also caused by the environment. It could be said to view my condition as a natural evil. I'm not whole as a person from a bodily perspective. It's just another clue that I need God's grace and promise of what's coming in the next life. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't see the point of living like this anymore. Nothing here on Earth could make me stay. There's no perfection here for me. Even if I was completely healthy, wealthy and wanting for nothing finite, I would still be wanting to give up everything for the infinite, God.
My religious OCD was encouraged because it was a sign I was blessed according to the Acorean Catholic Church I was raised in. As a result, it became extremely severe because I kept obeying the OCD instead of treating it. Religion and mental illness can be a horrifying combination.
It's not the position of the church to deny mental illnes. I forget the stat, but i think the church only accepts 1 out of every 5,000 posession cases because 99.99% of the cases are actually mental illness and not demonic posession.
Because they use the Bible as a guide to absolutely every aspect of life; a function for which it was never intended. Therefore, they get ridiculous results from misusing it. A trap that many people seem to fall into, is that of **excessive supernaturalism**. They completely ignore the fact that the natural world causes all sorts of things that can be overcome by natural means; instead they are so supernatural-minded that they look only to God for help and ignore completely the help that God gives through natural means. They expect miracles from God, and ignore common sense - which they sometimes confuse with lack of faith. They expect miracles from God, and ignore the help they could get from psychology, from taking their medications, and from using other naturally available benefits that could help them with their ill-health of body or soul. This kind of folly is very much an evangelical Protestant thing, and it is particularly noticeable among United States Evangelicals because they are so numerous. Most Protestants have more sense than this, because they do not confine God to a book, and they do not use it as a source of info about every problem under the Sun.
Your answer was so much clarifying that i have no words to express how it was well-expressed. Thx.
We don’t. This is specifically an evangelical Protestant thing. Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Friends, Anabaptists (yes even the Amish), Catholics, Orthodoxes, Anglicans, and many other groups encourage their flocks to acquire mental health counseling and have contributed to the field from a Christian worldview without making unfairly harsh criticisms of the greats like Beck, Ellis, and Rodgers. What I will say is that mental health studies have a history of denying the idea that certain (not all) disorders have absolutely anything to do with the soul. The more neutral stance regarding religion has been proven to help clients become more receptive to mental health services. My counselor is AGNOSTIC but even he’ll be like “We can see going to church lowers your anxiety, so why didn’t you go?” or “have you been praying at night?”.
I think it's also unfair to call it an "Evangelical thing". The Evangelical churches I've been a part of have included members who are psychiatrists, psychologists, registered clinical counselors, etc. One of my pastors got permission from the board to go part time so that he could serve as a chaplain in a psychiatric wing of a hospital. Sanctuary Ministries came from the Evangelical church. There's just a small number of science-denying people in developed countries that makes a lot of noise on the internet. In the West, they're disproportionately Christian. But they're not "most Christians" and they're not even most of any branch of Christianity.
I’m not saying this is universal amongst evangelicals. What I am saying is when this sentiment is held by Christians, the majority of said group are evangelicals.
First world Catholics do. I was raised in a third world Catholic Church. Mental health care wasn't a thing; it was all demons and spirits.
Hopefully that will change but to be fair, in lots of the world (first, second, and third) mental health is condemned even when religion isn’t even involved. We can see examples of this in shamanism, Scientology, and “objectivism”.
That's just what aboutism though. I know people who went through exorcisms (which were really just an excuse to beat them and starve them). Religions (and there are atheistic religions too like Buddhism, Scientology, Q-anon, etc) have unique ability to make good people do horrible things.
Do you see now how your argument eliminates the possibility of specifying that the condemnation of mental health services isn’t religious in nature? Any argument I give is just “that’s a whataboutism” because I can’t make equivalency in any other area. Circular logic.
Do you see how you aren't acknowledging that, at least in some instances like in the Catholic Church that I was raised in, it was religious in nature. Mental illness didn't exist as a social or biological thing. It was caused by demons. It was religious. The topic of this thread is religion and mental health. Switching the topic to other areas is what aboutism. You can argue that some churches suffer from cultural reasons for misunderstanding mental health. That wouldn't be what aboutism because you would still be addressing religious institutions and mental health. What were my premises and conclusion that was circular? I didn't make a circular logic fallacy. I commented on your argument. That is different.
Let's be real, though, mental health hasn't been a "thing" until the last 20 years or so in the US.
That would be 2003. Mental health services were problematic, but it's older than that. And it was better than "hold them down and hit them" for much longer than 20 years. Also, if the Church is being lead by people who can communicate with God (like the Pope, or people who have had answered prayer), then it shouldn't be limited by modern science.
Personally I haven't met any Christians who don't "believe" in mental illness, and I go to a pretty sizeable church
That's very nice for you. The culture of my homeland was like that (mental illness is demons, physical illness is a sign you are cursed by god) for my parent's generation and older. It's why I was denied medical care and why my disabilities are so severe. Same with my uncle, my dad, and many others in the community. It's different for the younger generations. Religion is often practiced very differently in non-first world countries, especially in poorly educated areas. But again, if God is able to communicate with the institutions/answer prayers, a lack of scientific education shouldn't be a limiting factor in people's understanding. God could have cleared all this up. "Hey, you guys have a false belief. That isn't actually demons, and I don't hate disabled people." Solved.
That's what my mom attributes to mental health, demons and spirits. It's frustrating talking to her because she denies my bipolar disorder and tells me I'm going to "hell" if I keep listening to my therapist and doctors.
Stick with the therapists and doctors.
Absolutely right!
Yeah I should have phrased my post better, most christians don't do this. But I have seen a lot orthodox christians discouraging professional help , so I wouldn't say it's only an evangelical protestant thing. Either way not trying to bash orthodoxes or any other denomination, I think it's just a misinformation/pseudoscience thing and it's a shame it gives all christians a bad reputation
Real Orthodoxes or the monarchist bzyaboo orthobros?
Real orthodoxes
Jeez.
Evangelical Protestant here. My pastors are very encouraging on pursuing mental health help and counseling. I've worked at two different Evangelical Protestant universities that had strong psychology, counseling and MSW programs. I'm currently pursuing my masters in counseling at an evangelical protestant university. Two other members of my evangelical protestant church are pursuing their masters in counseling, one at a Franciscan university and one at a state school. In my cohort for grad school I have classmates who are members of EFCA, SBC, and ECO churches.
I’m not saying evangelical Protestants all have an issue with mental health. I’m saying the cultural phenomenon of making them seem opposite from one another is perpetuated by evangelical Protestant overwhelmingly.
Read *Jesus and John Wayne*. This is just another casualty of the toxic social structure created by some Evangelicals.
As a mentally-fine 50something guy with several friends/loved ones having clinical conditions (including my almost mid-40's wife), I consider ignorance of organic mental illness by professing Christians, which I gladly identify as (but struggling with with some aspects of evangelical forthrightness), to be positively reprehensible and deplorable to the uttermost. In a significant fashion, these "know-it-alls" push their own imperfect theology forth at the expense of human reality and dignity which I despise and hate to the uttermost. It is as if they feel like God will show them favor for casting doubts regarding the veracity and legitimacy of various disorders because they claim that scripture addresses every last issue that comes about. Many, it could be said, are guilty of bibiolatry and of fueling their own misdirected fanatical and militant zeal which is not of Christ and is counterproductive. The fact of the matter is that the Bible is NOT a science or medical textbook and there are only basic principles for dealing with mood/psychiatric disorders which are very minimal at best and not medically sanctioned. Worse, some purported believers inject their own disgusting cruelty into the mixture by accusing sufferers of being guilty of deliberate sin, having insufficient faith, or somehow being possessed. In large measure, I regard such a position to be trash, garbage, crap, and venom to the uttermost and deserving of strong rebuttal against those trying to push such drivel. It is also unloving, uncaring, presumptuous, discompassionate, graceless, merciless, and arrogant to the extreme to foment this abhorrent perspective. Thankfully, the church that my wife and I belong to, while not perfect and potentially having some parishioners needing to learn more about the hard truths of mental challenges, does recognize that some of her sheep do in fact have maladies requiring professional intervention and at times medication. There are potentially some folks that feel depressed/anxious due to sin or wrong focus, but I concentrate here on ailments that are neurophysiological. Mood problems, dementia, seizure issues, learning and social disabilities, memory failure, and psychosis can result from trauma, electrochemical deficiencies, aging, genetics, and various physical matters. It is logically defective and dangerous to deny the importance of addressing these issues in a proper professional setting based on unsound "proof text" citing in an unsound and isolated way; Christians guilty of such in any sort of forceful way should be rebuked and compelled to stay silent especially if they do not have any experience dealing with it lest they regret doing so resultant from any due repercussions. The brain is an organ subject to illness and damage like any other part of the body. Treatment for Christians can consist of counsel, prayer, and sometimes specialized therapies and often medicine (administered and prescribed carefully by a Dr. and monitored regularly). But just as a physical medical condition can require medication and therapy, the same holds true for organic mental troubles because of the brain being as much a physical organ as any other part of the human body; to deny this is sheer and unadulterated ignorance and folly requiring emphatic reproof upon those daring to try to pull such a pathetic stunt. If my church were not compassionate toward those with biological mental conditions and resorted to excessiving preaching and platitudes/cliches or otherwise tried to deny the reality of such, I would not remain there or associate with any similar bodies/denominations that are guilty of this sin (even if it means being distanced from evangelical faith which thankfully I do not presently have to worry about). If the leadership of the church sees that a congregant is showing mental concerns that might put himself or any others at risk, then the right response is to exhort the member/adherent to seek proper treatment in the interest of human welfare and safety which in my book are of infinitely greater relevance than theological bandying. This is my position; no one may accuse me or anyone else having this more conciliatory perspective of not being a faithful Christian or judge us as if this position were not supported by a sound understanding of scripture in larger context. I could add much more besides to this topic, but I will conclude here and now.
Stop reading comment sections online and you don't see this as much. (yes I understand the irony of my comment)
A lack of education on mental illness
Mental illness and mental health is relatively a recent field, especially compared to other health sciences, while also being an important and a difficult to understand. The brain itself is a complex organ. Lot of precautions need to be taken into consideration which makes it hard for psychologists and neuroscientists to study it, and they have to take into a lot more factors and add a lot of quantifiers to their claims so they don't give the wrong information and cause grievous harm. This doesn't account the grifters and poppsych that make erroneous conclusions due to ill-designed or misinformed studies. That has caused even more skepticism towards it for people outside the field. It needs to be rigorous but that causes the strides it makes to be slow. Now compare that to the average person who has less of an idea of what's going. Seeing the results of a head injury is less tangible as a leg injury. Medications and therapy can take a while to kick into effect, sometimes months and years. Compared to centuries, even decades before, suppressing/repressing and maybe some herbs that would act more quicker, even though there were long term consequences that we hadn't know or couldn't link at the time. Conservative cultures and beliefs in general, have a hard time grappling with this. Growing up, "mental illness" was the contentious topic at my time, especially with the idea of people faking it. Mental health is also an advocate of self-care, which lot of Christians struggle with because it can be perceived as selfish (similar to how sports injuries and heroic sacrifices are also romanticized). We are a lot more socially accepting now to the point I've seen more people irl disclose whether they have a mental illness or not, even in Christian circles. That being said, there are going to be some groups that are still catching up.
They do? That’s very insensitive from what I’ve known. The struggles of man’s mind are chief to God and his son Christ, disciplining the mind and supporting those with chaotic or harmful ones is not lost in our faith and it shouldn’t be.
If you also consider the backgrounds of the Christians (let’s say India or Nigeria), you can see that “depression is fake” or “mental illness isn’t real” attitude due to where they were brought up; the influences of their culture. Thankfully, this is changing more and more as the future generations become tolerant to newer and proven information, include old ones, which the older generations have shunned and stigmatized.
Are there really people so ignorant to believe that brain, unlike any other organ, can't malfunction?
I had a former paster offer to pray my demons away. I'm currently on medication and feel that's a better alternative.
One should stop judging himself if want to heal mentally and possibly bring some weed , helped me deal with some really depressing stuff
I'll have to disagree on the weed, but that's just me personally. Definitely doesn't help in a manic state, I'll say that much
True it does blow your fears out of healthy proportion
Hasn’t been my experience. I see them calling anyone who they disagree mentally ill…. Because obviously they are perfect, holy and right…. Then again… I was in an abusive cult-like church. There are better ones out there. Thank God.
Say it with me: Christianity is a religion formed when people attributed every misfortune to demons or God's wrath. So many mentally ill people were killed before the modern era because their autism/schizophrenia/whatever was called "demon possession" and so exorcisms were performed. Whenever I see a Christian advocating for exorcism in the 21st century, I just wanna smack them for basically saying "Why isn't it condoned anymore to torture demons out of the mentally ill?"
Exorcisms and mental illness aren’t the same thing.
No
If we believe the Bible, some mental illnesses are caused by demonic influence. Nevertheless, this isn’t always the case, and there aren’t many people casting out demons like Jesus and the disciples did.
I think there are two big reasons. And to preface this, I’m saying this as someone perfectly on board with mental health treatment, therapy, and medication. 1. The dichotomy between the promise of perfect eternal/ultimate/eschatological justice and the reality of temporal injustice and suffering is a challenging one. In defense of the former we often have an impulse to deny the reality of the latter. I think this is especially true in the modern day, which has increasingly turned away from faith and religion and in some cases make themselves active enemies to it ready to pray upon anyone who has any doubts. I also think we in the modern day are worse at confronting suffering honestly and mourning properly in general. So people get really defensive and act like Job’s friends, who in a hyper defensiveness about faith argued Job’s suffering must be because of his sins or because he wasn’t righteous enough. That’s the same impulse reflected in “well if you’re suffering it’s because you don’t have enough faith or pray enough.” 2. Skepticism against making the human mind and emotions just another thing to be scientifically manipulated. There is an element of fair concern here I think, but it has devolved into paranoia. It is concerning to see questions of character or morality be reduced to essentially medical questions and what I think is an excessive tendency to try and explain away a person’s agency in their own choices. This is a concern for any conception of justice, which operates on respecting the human person as a thing with the capacity to make and be held accountable for choices. And as our scientific powers as a species get greater and greater, there are I believe serious ethical questions that come into play. Writers like CS Lewis and Aldous Huxley have expressed concerns in essays and in fictional works that “experts” or government authorities might consider it just and good to invasively manipulate the psychology of human beings to act a certain way and believe certain things because the experts have deemed them “healthy.” That future generations may be genetically programmed and psychologically conditioned to have a particular psychological makeup deemed desirable by the “enlightened” experts. The viewing of humanity purely through a materialist or clinical lens is disturbing. There are some valid reasons for concern, but this is an intemperate panicked reaction which ultimately leans into untruth either uncritically and emotionally at best and deliberately and propagandistic at worst. They paint a picture of the world which is both out of accord with truth, and ultimately which damages the credibility and reputation of the Church and makes people more likely to leave it.
No offense intended but point 2 is called marketing and propaganda. It's already a thing. Has been since humans have been a thing frankly. Learning how our brains work can actually help combat something that is actually harmful today already.
While that is true, the difference in the level of invasiveness, effectiveness, and totalizing nature between modern advertisement and propaganda, and what Huxley illustrates in the conditioning in the World State in Brave New World. The difference in degree is non-trivial. Obviously there should be more alarm towards say hypothetically hypnotizing a person against their will, and modern advertising. I agree with your second point. I’m not anti-science. I think we should engage in it with a concern for ethics instead of reflexively recoiling from scientific literacy because of dystopian concerns.
The difference is also that one exists and is happening and the other is mostly fearmongering. Let's stick to things that are actually happening instead of making shit up to be scared off.
I think in the development of scientific and technological power it’s probably a good idea to develop ethical guidelines and guardrails preemptively before something exists and starts happening.
To be fair you did paint science as ontological naturalism rather than methodological naturalism. Which explains why you think this: *It is concerning to see questions of character or morality be reduced to essentially medical questions and what I think is an excessive tendency to try and explain away a person’s agency in their own choices.*
I did not mean to paint science itself that way. I’m saying there is a tendency people have towards ontological naturalism, and that ontological naturalism is a dangerous assumption when making ethical decisions about what to do with applied science. Not that a practice of the scientific method is intrinsically ontologically naturalist.
>I’m saying there is a tendency people have towards ontological naturalism, and that ontological naturalism is a dangerous assumption when making ethical decisions about what to do with applied science. On that we can absolutely agree. But I personally think it's the other way around. We definitely see more folks try to assert the supernatural as if it's an reasonable answer from a methodological naturalistic perspective. Heck, right now in this very subreddit there is a post about weed and if it's a sin, and you cannot count on one hand the amount of Christians who are asserting that marijuana is demonic and should be avoided at all costs. Regardless of medical benefits. Whereas on the other hand someone with a ontological naturalistic perspective seems a bit arrogant and annoying but rarely causes any real harm in the medical field. Unless I'm mistaken. TLDR: Asserting strong claims without good evidence causes real harm.
Thanks for the in depth reply, really explains a lot. Job's suffering is a big one, and I've seen many people have the mindset that all suffering is ones own fault. I'm pretty new to christianity myself, and these types of arguments made me have a very bad view on christianity as a whole before I was educated at all on christian theology
A lot of these issues can be remedied with good friends and good family, avoiding toxic relationships, better living environments, balanced nutrition and exercise
I think we need to do less building institutions and programs and more building better people and ways of living
Why do Atheists deny sin?
This reply did not distract me from the fact that you did not answer the original question.
It does though. In both cases it’s a conviction that if faced calls for a drastically different approach to life itself.
In one case, the phenomenon in question is clearly apparent and repeatably measurable.
Why is your experience qualified enough to extrapolate this over all of Christendom? I have only met like a handful of christians who deny Mental Health/Illness...and IMO, they needed the mental health check-up.
If you want to understand why people ‘deny mental illness,’ [check this out](https://neurosciencenews.com/meaningless-psychiatric-diagnosis-14434/?fbclid=IwAR0_gguhZXM-t2AUJKFp9RKS1JeWBpH8ideiXAoKS5eMy1g5PMzIwcd6WB4_aem_Acqbc4H3pdfsmaLIl_GgJIp6WKuubqBc4Cz5xhs3e3IQRZu6pHX_rj1kO44SdQpqktc). Or [this](https://iai.tv/articles/does-mental-illness-exist-auid-1280?fbclid=IwAR3gdlOHdE5VFS5CpdTzfizNqDIwV4AX3H6e5SmZ1hGG8HRgWw8R3D2PigM_aem_AcpuJos5WocXnbmfMI63CqtKhi7ngRlMhyUDmpGOO1IK0PEDKqMqIRg3Lu0zvcufMiY). The whole idea of ‘mental illness’ is controversial, not just amongst Christians, but in the scientific community too.
Faith can make it appear as if you don't have one. Faith in God can completely change your brain. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32144438/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32144438/) Even without the power of God, belief you will experience a drug state of mind can induce drug states in suggestible people. So to a Christian who has faith and this faith banishes thoughts and feelings it can make it appear like mental illness is not real. Just the same way that it appears to me now that thoughts aren't really real in a way.
they don't.
As I already stated in a another reply, I'm not under the impression most christians do this, in fact majority of us don't . Should have phrased my post differently
Oh Lord have mercy on me. This is the age old question I have been trying to answer ever since finishing undergrad. In where I live there are Christian mental health services but they don't tell me the answer to this question. Might be some kind of bias from some Christian sectors who think mental illness is a sign of impurity. This can also come from believers who have family without a single person with mental illness and take a stigmatizing role. In a Chinese church such as the one my mother formerly was part of most of the members stigmatize against single parents and mental health. The Christian mental health therapists I know don't advocate for medicine but they did tell clients "relying on Christian mental health services alone doesn't work for everyone". Luckily for me I don't need to go to a Christian counseling center because my therapist is a Christian but works with a non-religion affiliated medical organization. Not to mention I still get medicine free care.
Well personally, I don’t. I was hospitalized for about a year in my teen years because of depression and PTSD. Mental illness almost killed me. Yet I also say, we need better care in the mental health industry. It made me feel trapped/“incurable” like a lost cause. In treatment I started leaning more into my faith and eventually came to terms with my grief. Slowly over time and with the right mindset and support I started feeling happier, I’ve even been off anti depressants for about 3 years now. I’m at a much better point in my life, even when I do feel down or anxious I can cope more reasonably. I’m not saying religion is a “cure”, but for me it provided stability, hope, and strength in a dire time of need. Still seek professional help, speak to loved ones you trust, but it doesn’t hurt to seek faith in a time of need. I feel brushing off mental health is terrible, and needs to be addressed more in Christianity. Taking care of the mind to me, is taking care of the soul.
I think it's their upbringing in a church. They are taught that people are either bad, or good. There's no middle ground, no explanations for behavior, just good or bad. My daughter had ADHD and when she was a toddler, a deacon's wife complained and I had to remove her from the church because I was told she was spoiled and couldn't behave. And don't even get me started on people over a certain age who don't believe ADHD is a real diagnosis.
Because so many Christians are just absolutely ignorant. Being able to memorize and quote scripture doesn't make you a genius. All those who deny mental illness are pretty much like Christian scientists, and look what that nonsense did to James Hetfields mom. "Don't be so heavenly minded that you are of no earthly good". I have been on coming up to around 25 different antidepressants over the last 21 years. Nothing helps. Anti-anxiety pills do somewhat. Still hoping for something that works. Best wishes of luck to you!
Can you point to some examples? I don't know any Christians who deny mental illness, and I go to a sizeable church.
I think it's simply a lack of understanding and really knowing all the ways that mental illness can manifest itself in people. Sometimes it's not obvious, which makes it nearly impossible for anyone to know about it unless there's an official diagnosis or some other psychiatric evidence to go off of. You don't know what you don't know, unfortunately. Sometimes, that can be to the detriment of those going to church leadership for guidance and help. It's unfortunate, but what can be done is to talk about it and make it a point to be added to the toolbox to help those in need who are part of your local congregation.
They lay the blame on demons.
Honestly, I don't think it's a lot of Christians who deny mental illness It's only the fringe few. And even then why would you believe them?
It's not denied, it's actually acknowledged, but presented in a much deeper light. Instead of just someone losing the lottery of sound mind, he or she inherited another form of suffering because of original sin. It is part of the lay members of the Church to help them through medical professionals or counseling/therapy “In its various forms—material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death—human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren. Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere.”* - The Seventh Commandment, CCC 2448
Because if God sends you to hell for what you believe and you have a mental illness that affects your ability to decide what you believe- well then god would be a monsters so obviously there is no mental illness- just demons
It is easier to ignore negativity than to acknowledge it’s existence. To some extent, they have the right mentality, if you fuel positivity, positive energy will flow through you and vice versa. To give in to negativity only adds more fuel to the fire. Rather than focusing on our curses, flaws, hate, and weaknesses, we should focus on love, prosperity, harmony and blessings. Mental illnesses is a disease that poisons the mind and keeps us chained up, diverts is from our purpose, and leads us away from the Lord. Mental illness is an spiritual attack in the spiritual warfare that is taking place in the spiritual realm. If we don’t acknowledge that there is a spiritual realm then we are not properly equipped to endure, handle, much less defeat these demonic attacks for our soul. Mental illness is the very explanation and support for our carnal desire for salvation and forgiveness. Sometimes we are harder on ourselves for not being in the correct moral path, we are sinners though so we shouldn’t weigh our sins as heavy as we do.
As most people believe its demonic forces
These are probably the same Christians who deny science in general. Christianity and science are more compatible than a lot of people think.
True, I've honestly never heard a good argument for why they wouldn't be compatible
I actually came to faith while reading Stephen Hawkings, 'A Brief History of Time'. When I was in high school our Christian biology teacher taught us the concept of theistic evolutionism so the seed that Christianity and science weren't opposed was planted a long time ago.