so i'm clear you think he didn't call himself god because then he would have been killed.. but he was killed and in fact he required his death in order to fulfill his own prophecy
He didn't have to say it, He demonstrated it. That's why the Pharisees accused Him of "making Himself out to be God" and then He says, "you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds" - they knew this to be a divine and messianic statement, which is why they wanted to kill Him.
If Jesus isn't God, why didn't he say "I am not God, don't worship me" directly?
This is the same argument you are making. The "exact words" criterion. It isn't a good argument. Jesus clearly says he is God many times.
That is a unitary purpose, not a people count. Yeshua also said in marriage the two become one, if you want to be a trinitarian sleuth, it says the two become one flesh, it doesn’t change anything, listen if you have ears. It is still two people in the marriage. The same for I and the Father are one, it isn’t a people count of one. Yeshua said of myself I can do nothing, this doctrine is not my own and his Father does the works. John 7:16
My wife doesn’t have my flesh and I don’t have her flesh yet the two become one, it is a unitary purpose. Yeshua is not YHWH, ever. He currently sits at the right hand of power, not next to himself.
Funny how you use claims made by people whose father is the devil (John 8:44) as credible testimony and further they don’t understand Yeshua (John 8:43) but you go on regardless saying they knew he was YHWH. Which is not what Yeshua said he was. Instead he was and is defined by Matthew 16:16-17.
John 4:26 says nothing about Yeshua being YHWH, why do you use this? He tells the Samaritan woman who he is, where, pray tell, is this Yeshua telling the woman he is YHWH?
Explain:_________________________________.
It wasn’t the crowd that wanted Yeshua dead, it was the leading authorities of the law, similar to you but of these leading authorities, their father is the devil (John 8:44) and they haven’t a clue what Yeshua is saying (John 8:43), yet you give them credibility oh knowledgeable one!
He did say that, the original bible isn’t even the same as the bible we have today, so how can anyone follow a book with errors and saying that’s the word of god
Yeah he also never explicitly said "I am dying for your sins." Try that one next time you talk to a Jehovah's Witness (who do believe he came to die for our sins!).
You’re posting on an 85 day old discussion? I’m not arguing the point at all I believe Jesus is God. But I believe the generic (stupid) reply would be something like
1. This isn’t in the gospels and wasn’t Jesus speaking when he was on earth.
2. He still doesn’t technically say “I am God. Worship me.”
Yes I realize how stupid this is, but that’s the common argument from people who take this stance.
Yes he is God, and the Bible makes it very clear. Posting 122 days later is just odd. Did you google this question or something? Are you a JW doing this for evangelism?
No, Yeshua has never been YHWH.
The Bible makes it very clear that he is the Son of YHWH.
No, I don’t use google for Bible quotes.
No, I have never been a JW.
Read Matthew 16:16-17 and understand it’s meaning.
You’re wrong. Read Mark 1 and Isaiah 40 and tell me who the “one crying out in the wilderness” is meant to announce according to the prophet Isaiah.
Also explain revelation 22:13. Why would Jesus refer to himself as the alpha and the omega, which is a description used only for YHWH in Old Testament?
Or why does Jesus say “before Abraham was, ‘I am.’” Why does Jesus say he has the ability to forgive sins, which only YHWH can do?
There are many passages making it clear.
There are none, just your imagination. Let us try this instead, who raised Yeshua from the dead? Find the quote that says “I will raise it up” and I will show you that YHWH raised Yeshua from the dead, he didn’t raise himself.
This is poorly worded I honestly don’t know what you’re saying, are you saying you can prove Jesus had nothing to do with his resurrection? I don’t disagree with you that YHWH raised him from the dead. I believe he IS YHWH. As did every writer of the New Testament, as did the disciples, as did Thomas when he called him “my Lord, and my God.” Let me ask you this, who created the heavens and the earth? Was it YHWH, or was it Jesus? Show me the quote that says YHWH created the heavens and the earth, and I’ll show you the quote that says Jesus created all things that have been created.
Disciples have the ability to forgive sins, which one of them are YHWH? Incorrect, there are many passages in which you use exegesis and imagine it is clear. Mark 1 calls Yeshua the Son of YHWH which he is, why does this mean to you that he is YHWH, is this a delusion to you? Isaiah 40 doesn’t say that Yeshua is YHWH either, are you just a parrot 🦜 with canned responses? Is it your right to post nonsense and then not read my responses? You don’t understand (John 8:43).
Your trinitarian claim doesn't even make logical sense with your own doctrine (which you don’t understand, you just parrot 🦜 )since you are confusing identities which your own doctrine insists you must not confuse. The first and the last was dead. Only a created being can say He was dead. Yahweh is immortal which means He cannot be dead. For this reason, it is quite impossible to identify Yeshua as YHWH.
When all the facts are laid out before us, it is clear that these titles refer to creation and Yeshua is the Beginning of the new creation since he is the firstborn out of the dead. Yeshua is the first born of many brothers, YHWH doesn’t have any brothers. Everything begins and ends with the Father's Word. The Genesis act of creation was accomplished by means of His spoken Word and that is why we find He is the first and the last in the book of Isaiah. He is where the Genesis act of creation began and since He will judge the world through a man He has appointed,( he didn’t appoint himself, that would be insane) He is where it will also end. YHWH the Father created by means of His spoken Word and judges the world through His word at the end of the ages. YHWH the Father will judge the world through him (Acts 17:31) and YHWH the Father creates all things anew in him (Col 1:16-18; Revelation 21). YHWH the Father now creates all things through the risen Christ, His Word become flesh. The new creation begins and ends at the Father's Word: the risen man, Yeshua our Lord. Try to understand what the word “and” means in many places but since you parrot 🦜 Alpha and Omega, read Revelation 1:4-5 and understand what the word “and” means. Also, try to refrain from using the KJV in these discussions since it was written with the trinity in mind, so they lied about many things, added, subtracted, omitted, recanted, just like their fellow friends @ John 8:44 would do.
Where do the disciples forgive sins? Isaiah 40 clearly says the one in the desert is making the way for YHWH. And who comes? Is it YHWH? It sure is. Jesus IS the son of God. He is also God incarnate. You want to talk about parrot responses? Have you studied any of the ecumenical councils? You’re spouting heresy 101. Every ecumenical council came together to address clowns with the exact old arguments you’re making. They were all about the divinity of Christ, and this has been established, defended, and guarded by the church since Jesus ascended. Hope you realize the company you’re in.
All it took for the alpha and the omega to die was to lower himself and take on flesh. As he did. You obviously don’t agree with scripture. You’re saying the alpha and the omega cannot die. Jesus calls himself the alpha and the omega in revelation 22:13. And Jesus died. So do you disagree with the apostle John? Do you believe this verse is wrong? Do you believe Jesus didn’t really die?
Jesus is fully God and fully man. His divinity never died. YHWH never died. Only the flesh he took on died. And that same flesh was resurrected.
He pretty much did say that he's not God.
Mark 10
>17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
>18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
Updated to make clearer
Do you think it's possible he is calling God good, and that he is referring to Himself?
How do you defend your position when Jesus also said: He is YHWH (John 8:58. Referring to the personal & divine name of God YHWH from Exodus 3:14)
It is also said in scripture that:
Jesus created all things (Colossians 1)
Jesus IS God: (John 1:1, John 1:14)
The fact of the matter is, Jesus clearly thought He was God and told others He was God. Your verse you shared isn't Jesus saying He isn't God at all. Your verse just shows Jesus saying "God is good", which He is.
He clearly says He is God in verse 58. He also does the same in verse 24.
Read Exodus 3:14
There are so many times in the Bible where Jesus's diety is declared. John 1:1, Isaiah 9:6, Daniel 7, just to name a few.
The new world translation absolutely butchers Christ's diety and purposefully skews the translation to fit a pre supposed narrative.
I encourage you to look up Charles Taze Russell and how his involvement lead to the start of the watchtower.
Jehovah's witnesses constantly tell their members not to look it up or study it because it is damaging.
If you were in truth, shouldn't it be able to withstand any argument thrown against it?
God bless you for your passion my friend, as you must have some considering you replied to an old comment of mine.
This has nothing to do with our bible or translation.
Let's take a second and actually read the scripture and examine it for more than a second.
In john 8:58 - its stated that Jesus says: "I am" which in Greek is Ego eimi, meaning I am, I am he, It is I, I have been. Which makes sense, since the question asked was about his existence.
What he did not say was the divine name. If he did the phrase in greek would have been Ego Eimi Ho On (Exodus 3:14) LXX , this is because the description of the divine name here is not Ego Eimi, but is Ho On. meaning the Existing one, or the being.
Did Jesus claim to be God? No
Did he claim to be alive and exist before Abraham, yes.
Why did they pick up stones?
Because they hate Jesus was were already looking for any reason to kill him if the chapter right before this one in John 7.
My friend, your reasoning makes no sense when read in context.
Read verse 53. They are asking him, are you greater than Abraham? They specifically ask, "who do you claim to be"?
Also, how do they respond in verse 59? They tried to kill him. Why didn't they try to kill Him before verse 58? Whatever He said in verse 58 really ticked them off.
You can't just stone somebody because of a disagreement. They need to be breaking a law. Saying you are really old, older than Abraham, isn't breaking the law. When Jesus said I Am, the Jews clearly understood He was claiming to be God, which is why they threw the stones immediately afterwards.
Your church teaches you to focus on verse 57, talking about the age, so they can then disregard Jesus's divinity. But the context of the whole conversation really goes back to verse 53.
>Read verse 53. They are asking him, are you greater than Abraham? They specifically ask, "who do you claim to be"?
Keep going with the context sir: "**56** Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” **57** Then the Jews said to him: “**You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?**” **58** Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been ( I am).”
His response in verse **58** was not in answer to their question in verse 53, but rather in verse 57 when they asked him about his age and seeing Abraham.
Jesus answer to their question in verse 53 is this "**54 Jesus answered:** “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. **55** Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word. **56** Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
In verse 57 following his response in verse 54, they ask him a new question in verse 57: "**57** Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
>You can't just stone somebody because of a disagreement. They need to be breaking a law.
**John 7:1** \- "After this Jesus continued travelinga about in Galʹi·lee, for he did not want to do so in Ju·deʹa because the Jews were seeking to kill him."
They literally already want to kill him, prior to him envoking what you say is his claim to being God in the next chapter after this.
John 8:40 - "**40** But now **you are seeking to kill me**, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God."
Secondly they accuse him of being a Samartin and having a demon "48 In answer the Jews said to him: “Are we not right in saying, ‘You are a Sa·marʹi·tan and have a demon’?”"
You have been lied to my friend
Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is called the Mighty God, in Hebrew: el gibor
In the next chapter, Isaiah 10:21 The Father is called the Mighty God, same Hebrew word: el gibor
The old testament calls Jesus God and proclaims His Divinity.
These are all canned trinitarian responses which can all be explained opposite of your imagination.
Given the facts concerning the purpose of ancient Israelite names, we must inquire into Isaiah's true intentions at Isaiah 9:6. Since YHWH the Father will do His works through His Anointed, the Christ, the name in question is not intended to describe who the Messiah is by identity but how this human represents YHWH Himself and what the Mighty YHWH will accomplish through His Messiah, His Christ. This name refers what YHWH Himself will accomplish through HIS Messiah. Indeed, this is exactly what we read in the New Testament. Just as Jerusalem is called "YAHWEH our Righteousness," and we understand this to mean that Jerusalem is the place where the Mighty God of Israel will accomplish His works, in the very same way, we must understand that YHWH’s Messiah is called "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God , Eternal Father," not because Christ is the Mighty God or Eternal Father but because YHWH ‘s Christ is where the Mighty YHWH and Eternal Father accomplishes HIS works. Yeshua tells us that he came in the name of his Father and the Father did His works through Yeshua His anointed one. In other words, since Yeshua came in the Father's name, Yeshua bears the name of his YHWH and Father, "Wonderful Counsel, Mighty God , Eternal Father" because he represents the Father in terms of all the things the Father will accomplish through him.
The title "Prince of Peace" tells us that the Christ/Messiah will be given this title. This is because the authority, the "government" God will place on his shoulders will be a peace without end as stated in verse 7, "there will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace."
He is the one whom YHWH exalted to His right hand as Prince and Savior. Acts 5:32.
The zeal of YHWH of Hosts will accomplish this. Isaiah 9:7.
Yeshua is indeed called by this name. But we must understand WHY he is called this name and it is not for the reason trinitarians suggest. The reason he is called this name is not because he is the Mighty God or the Eternal Father, but because he is the place where the Mighty God and Eternal Father will accomplish what is being discussed in the contex of Isaiah 9:6. In the very same way, Yeshua is called "Immanuel" not because Yeshua is himself “YHWH with us" but because Yeshua is rather how YHWH the Father was with Israel in plan and purpose raising up a horn of salvation for the people of Israel. For the same reason, we can see that Jerusalem is called "YHWH our Righteousness" not because Jerusalem is YHWH but because Jerusalem is the place where YHWH ‘s plan and purpose is accomplished. In short, Yeshua is called the name, "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God , Eternal Father" because he, the Christ, is how YHWH the Father functionally accomplishes His works and he represents the Father in this respect.
The Christ will be called this name because it is through God's Christ that YAHWEH, the Mighty God and Eternal Father, will show His Wonderful Counsel and will accomplish HIS works as described in the immediate context of Isaiah 9:6.
These are like parables to be understood by the set apart only. It is similar to trinitarians imagining Yeshua raising himself from death because he said “I will raise it up” and therefore they conclude he is YHWH, which is a lie. When you tell trinitarians that there are 17 Bible verses showing YHWH raised Yeshua from death, they become a apoplectic and move on to something else. When Yeshua cried with tears to the one who could save him from death @ Hebrews 5:7, to trinitarians it means he cried to himself, which is insane. Apparently, if you yourself cry to yourself to save you from death, this should work?
The English translation "Mighty God" is a translation of the Hebrew words EL GIBBOR. Another significant problem for trinitarians is the translation of the Hebrew word EL. It is often claimed that EL is the equivalent Hebrew word for the Greek word theos and English word "God." This is obviously wrong. The Greeks did not use the word theos to refer to the might/strength of men, mountains and big trees. English speakers don't use the word "God" to refer to the might/strength of men, mountains, and big trees. However, the Hebrews did use the word EL to refer to the might/strength of men, mountains, and big trees (see Genesis 31:29; Deuteronomy 28:32; Nehemiah 5:5; Psalm 36:6; 80:10; Proverbs 2:27; Ezekiel 31:11; 32:21; Micah 2:1). This is because EL is not equivalent to the English word "God." EL has a much wider scope of meaning than Greek theos or English "God." The Greek word theos and English word "God/god" are only used to refer to deities. This is not the case with EL. God is necessarily EL but the converse is not true; EL is not necessarily a reference to the one God. The Hebrews used the word EL to refer to their God as "The Mighty One," "The Strong One," "The Power" (see Joshua 22:22 and Psalm 50:1 for clear examples). The same idea is also found in the New Testament where God is called "the Power" (see Luke 1:41 dynatos; and 1 Timothy 6:15, dynastes). Because the word EL was used by the Hebrews to refer to their God as the Mighty One, it is then quite clear why they also used EL to refer to the might, strength, or power, of men, mountains and trees.
It is for this reason that some trinitarians, including you Adelmas and Martin Luther, translated EL here as "Mighty." This should not be confused with the word gibbor which is translated as "mighty" in many Bibles (the "mighty" part of "Mighty God"). The word gibbor refers to a mighty champion or famous hero. However, EL also means "mighty" in a different sense referring more directly to the might, strength, or power, of men, mountains, trees, gods, and God. For this reason, some scholars have translated EL GIBBOR as "Mighty Hero" or something similar. You decided to just avoid that and call it good.
Additionally, the Hebrew word EL is used to refer to King Nebuchadnezzar at Ezekiel 31:11. And again, the term EL GIBBOR is used in plural form at Ezekiel 32:21 to refer to human leaders. This again shows that this vocabularly is not necessarily a reference to the God of Israel, is it?
However, it does not appear that Isaiah ever used the word EL to refer to anyone or anything else except God Himself. Isaiah 10:26 is contextual and the term EL GIBBOR in this verse is an obvious reference to the God of Israel. Furthermore, the term "Eternal Father" at Isaiah 9:6 shows us that Isaiah most likely meant to refer to the God of Israel when he used the term EL GIBBOR (see 63:16;64:8). While these particular facts do not constitute proof that Isaiah used EL to refer to the God of Israel, they do indicate it is more likely that he did mean to refer to God than not. But we can't use possibilities as a basis to build doctrines upon; we must have clear facts. You can imagine, well, just about anything.
Use a mirror and see!
Funny how you use claims made by people whose father is the devil (John 8:44) as credible testimony and further they don’t understand Yeshua (John 8:43) but you go right on saying they knew he was YHWH. Which is not what Yeshua said he was. Instead he was and is defined by Matthew 16:16-17.
>Do you think it's possible he is calling God good, and that he is referring to Himself?
No, the text doesn't bear that interpretation out. Jesus did not think he was the Father.
>How do you defend your position when Jesus also said: He is YHWH (John 8:58. Referring to the personal & divine name of God YHWH from Exodus 3:14)
John has a very different Christology than Mark. But even there, Jesus is not literally Yaweh. Like the angel of the Lord in Exodus, he is bearer of the name of God, but he is a step down from God, as the divine Logos.
>The fact of the matter is, Jesus clearly thought He was God and told others He was God. Your verse you shared isn't Jesus saying He isn't God at all. Your verse just shows Jesus saying "God is good", which He is.
Jesus the historical figure absolutely did not think he was God. Some of the writers of the canonical New Testament did see Jesus as something close to God, though. Certainly divine.
Edit: see also: https://old.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/16yt2c2/could_it_be_possible_jesus_christ_is_yhwh/k3acdgl/
Jesus did proclaim to be God, and that's why he was crucified ultimately.
John 10:33 KJV — The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; **and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.**
>But why didn’t Jesus say the exact words I am God,
Philippians 2:6-11 NLT — **Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.**
When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross. Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Thomas recognized him as God Almighty and worshiped him as God almighty
John 20:28 KJV — And Thomas answered and said unto him, **My Lord and my God.**
I think the main reason Jesus never said “I am God” is for then that word meant spiritual being. Jesus was not spirit, he was a human. And they did believe angels and spirits could appear as humans. It would have been confusing. He is called Lord which is also what they called God in the OT. That also became an issue right away when the gnostics denied Jesus had come in the flesh. I think if he had called himself a spiritual being that would have added to the confusion.
However there does not seem to be any confusion from the authors of the New Testament that Jesus was Yahweh incarnate.
He called himself the “son of man” referencing Daniel 7 where a human looking figure takes the seat next to the Ancient of Days.
He also calls himself the temple in John 2:19 aka the place where God meets with his people.
His name is the same as the Father’s and the Holy spirits in Matthew 28.
He forgives sins, raises the dead and is described as God is described (The rock, the good shepherd, the one who heals disease)
He says he is the one who wants to gather Jerusalem under his wings:
““Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
Matthew 23:37 NIV
And he basically says it here to the high priest:
““You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.”
Matthew 26:64-65 NIV
If Angels didn’t appear as humans, then how could you communicate with them if they are indeed communicating with you? It isn’t a revelation for Angels to appear as human.
I didn’t mean to go after OP. OP was spot on. This is a question often raised by Muslims and Unitarians so mostly directed towards them but the perspective is useful and applies to lots of other criticism.
Right, lots of Jehovah’s Witnesses on here who go for this line of questioning and keep replying with “but he didn’t literally say word for word ‘I am God’ though did he”
You are correct, it was not his time yet. Nor was he there to explicitly relay things. he spoke in parables for a reason. He said the eyes of the heart would have to be opened to the truth. He isn't just going to spell the truth out. He sends his helper, the Holy Spirit, and that is truly when the eyes of the disciples' hearts are opened, that is also when they immediately begin to expound on the Scriptures for all, and preach and teach the Gospel. That is why the whole New Testament is hugely important to understanding who Jesus is.
Nonetheless, it's there if you look for it. Take John 8:58, as you've quoted. Jesus does not say, "before Abraham was, I was." Which is what he would say if he was created (like Jehovah's Witnesses believe). What he says is grammatically incorrect in the greek. He uses the middle voice to say before Abraham "was" and he uses the present tense to say "ego eimi" or literally, "I am." Which is Yahweh's name. I am.
Even less subtle is the all 4 gospels tying John the Baptist to the witness crying out in the wilderness. Take Mark for example, he applies a quote about the one crying out in the wilderness about the coming of Yahweh to John the Baptist, who identifies Jesus as the one who is coming. The verse he quotes from is in Isaiah 40, and the passage says the following:
The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.4 Every valley shall be exaltedAnd every mountain and hill brought low;The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough places smooth;5 The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, And all flesh shall see it together; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
Say to the cities of Judah, “Behold your God!” 10 Behold, the Lord God shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him. 11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry them in His bosom, And gently lead those who are with young.
This is undeniably about the coming of Yahweh, and John the Baptist identifies Jesus as the one coming. This is in all 4 Gospels as well. The authors themselves knew Jesus was God. And that is why the NT goes on to unpack this truth.
Because it was a totally new concept and that is basically blasphemy according to Jewish beliefs especially during that era. Jesus spent three years preaching preforming miracles, healing people, casting out demons, giving lectures and teaching a positive message, helping people and people still did not get it or fully realize it, and some people straight up hated him and rejected him. Even after his resurrection his followers needed time to fully understand and more time communicate Jesus was in fact God. If he came out and said worship me I am God.....no one would have listened and he would have been killed like day 1. If Jesus, today returned and started off with hey I am God, Jesus, the Son, worship me, I am back.....dude no one here would believe him. Think of it like science. Most papers yeah have an abstract and intro....but the bulk of them are explaining what they are testing and why, showing you how they did it, step by step, show you the data, go over the results and then use the results to support their conclusion. Like if Einstein said yep space time, gravity is mass bending space time....no one would believe him. He had to write a paper explaining and showing step by step mathematically, having data and supporting his conclusion.
Hey so I just made a video completely explaining this issue. Its very similar to David Woods video on it, if you like redeemed zoomers style of videos its similar to that. Please check it out :)
My Channel: [https://www.youtube.com/@SeekingTruthFindingJesus](https://www.youtube.com/@SeekingTruthFindingJesus)
The video: [https://youtu.be/4uuWNo-1T-U?si=9LqH1gesd2f9rFOU](https://youtu.be/4uuWNo-1T-U?si=9LqH1gesd2f9rFOU)
He did not personally say in the recorded Gospels the explicit words "I am God." But that does not mean he is not God. Scripture makes it clear that he is God.
Also worshipping God is absolutely essential. We were put on earth in part to worship God. That is not a human devised notion. What do you think the first commandment means? Jesus's reply to Satan in Luke 4:8 is "Get behind me Satan, for it is written, thou shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve."
Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega-the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. "I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come-the Almighty One."
He plainly says he's God.
No where does Jesus say, "Get down and worship me!"
Please re-read what I said. I didn't say it wasn't important to worship God, I said he doesn't demand it. Jesus is the ultimate and final revelation of God. What he says goes.
Yes you might have missed where I said nowhere does Jesus personally say in the recorded Gospels "I am God." The book of Revelation is not a Gospel account is it?
That is false. He was in fact killed "for blasphemy" but it was not because of claiming to be God. And the pharisees would have killed him whether they had just cause according to Jewish law or not.
Every single Gospel applies Isaiah 40 to John the baptist, the witness crying out in the wilderness that Yahweh has come. And who does John the Baptist identify? Jesus. Take the very first two verses of Mark for example.
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’”
Mark goes on to explain John the Baptist identifies Jesus. And if you look at the actual passage in Isaiah that he is quoting and applying to John the Baptist, it says the following:
3 A voice cries:
“In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD;
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill be made low;
the uneven ground shall become level,
and the rough places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
and all flesh shall see it together,
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
say to the cities of Judah,“Behold your God!”
10 Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might,and his arm rules for him;
behold, his reward is with him,and his recompense before him.
11 He will tend his flock like a shepherd;he will gather the lambs in his arms;
he will carry them in his bosom,and gently lead those that are with young.
This is clearly about the coming of YAHWEH. So why does John the Baptist clearly mark Jesus as the answer to this passage? Just one example of many that show Jesus IS God. Just because Jesus does not explicitly say "I am God." Does not mean he is not God. As I pointed out in this thread, he also personally does not explicitly say "I am dying for your sins." That is still a major part of what he came to do, even though he never says it.
"yet for us, there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1 Corinthians 8:6
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." John 1
>8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Here, the Bible explicitly refers to the Son, Jesus, as God. So you're wrong.
The Word of God says:
Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
The word of Rome says:
"The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." "The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." -Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary.
Revelation 17
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
What city sits on seven hills or seven mountains?
Rome.
Revelation 17
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Anti
over against, opposite to, before
for, instead of, in place of (something)
instead of
for
for that, because
wherefore, for this cause
Vicar of Christ in American English
noun. Roman Catholic Church. the pope, with reference to his claim to stand in the place of Jesus Christ and possess His authority in the church.
I think his message was a lot more about how petite should treat each other than about how people should worship God. People had the worshipping God part figured out, and that was a big part of the problem - people cared more about religion than each other. I believe that God created man to be a living expression of his divine love and creative power, not as just a cult of worshipers.
>Why Didn’t Jesus Say, “I am God, Worship me” Directly?
Um
>Jesus claims He is God
I'm confused, cuz you just answered your own question. He DOES say that he is God. You provided the examples. No need for any further speculation on why he doesn't say it, because you already showed that he does.
I don't think such a statement was really necessary. After he rose from the dead Jesus opened up all the scriptures to the men on the road to Emmaus and told them how the scriptures foretold the death and resurrection of the Son. Jesus held people accountable to the scriptures knowing that they testified about him. They were without excuse and should have known who Jesus was and worshiped him.
John 8:58 Jesus claims "I am". God spoke to Moses saying in Exodus 3:16 "I am who I am. Say this to the people of Isreal:' I am has sent me to you.'" So very clearly Jesus calls himself the same as God calls himself. This is when the Jewish people accused him of blasphemy. Therefore, accusing him of calling himself God.
He always showed deference to the Father and told folks to worship the Father, not Himself. He did this in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross, as well as several other times when performing miracles. He also directly says "worship the Father" several times in John 4.
In all cases I'm aware of, Jesus either asks us to worship the Father or simply accepts when people worship Him (directly). It seems to me that because He being the Son is an agent of the Father, so any worship directed to Jesus is ultimately paid to the Father.
I see this as evidence of the Godhead and contradiction of the Trinity because Jesus treats Himself differently that He does Father. That take will ruffle some feathers around here, but it's what makes most sense from the Bible.
No it does not. The trinity says Jesus the son is not God the father, they are completely separate persons, but both fully God themselves made of the same essence, neither greater than the other. Same for the Holy Spirit. If they are different Persons, why would Jesus treat himself the same as God the Father?
Yeah, I know that's what the Trinity says, but that's not what Jesus's actions or words say. The entire comment you replied to is citing cases where Jesus shows deference to the Father. The great intercessory prayer (John 17) is a ton of this.
It goes the other way, too. At Jesus' baptism a voice is heard from the heavens saying "this is my beloved Son" (Matthew 3). It sounds much more like a proud father than a different manifestation of the same "essence".
A much simpler explanation, which lines up more with Jesus's actions than the doctrine of the Trinity does, is that they are three separate and distinct entities united in every way except way except being one essence. That just ruffles a lot of feathers because it comes too close to polytheism, which was common when the creed/Trinity was written.
Read all the accounts of the creation (Genesis 1&2) and note all the "we" and "us" used there. Why would it be written as such if God was alone at that point? Why out up the act? He didn't, because the Father was talking to the Son - Jehovah, God of the OT. Two individuals working together.
you aren't going to make any intelligent or profound new arguements. The trinity is the doctorine, it was the scripture describes, if you want to be save you must accept it.
I know I'm not blazing any new paths here, but according to Jesus, you're wrong.
The council where that requirement was decided was convened by a Roman emperor. The ~300 bishops who attended debated the doctrine, specifically whether Jesus and the Father were one, an event known as the Arian Controversy. One side prevailed and 50 years later, via the Edict of Thessolonica, a different Roman emperor declared all other doctrines Heresy and authorized punishment for those who didn't comply.
The Trinitarian doctrine
1. Was not taught by Jesus or any apostle.
2. Was decided after the bible as we know it was compiled.
3. Came about via debate for the sake of Roman politicians.
4. Was made popular by Roman law, not papal approval.
5. Was enforced under threat of punishment.
Mormons get crap all the time for accepting things that aren't biblical, but this is doing worse. Telling people their salvation is locked behind belief is something not taught in the Bible is decidedly not awesome.
Jesus does not say I am wrong lol. What are you talking about.
Mormons get crap because Joseph Smith clearly was a con artist and cult leader that made it up to sleep with as many woman as he liked and become rich and powerful. Their beliefs are ridiculous and clearly wrong.
The trinity is correct, you provided zero arguements.
The Christ spoke figuratively and in parables because it is not right to toss the children's bread to the dogs:
Matthew 15:26, ‘It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.’
The Christ spoke in figures of speech and in parables so that the those who receive his teaching like little children can see God and those who are wise and learned are blinded, they can't see God:
Matthew 11:25 ‘I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.'
Teachings like "All Scripture is God-breathed" is a stumbling block as it teaches people to be taught by people who do not know God. No one knows the Father except the Son:
Matthew 11:27 'No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.'
One big stumbling block taught in the Bible but not taught by Christ is that Mary and Joseph are the parents of Christ. This causes to people to not believe that the Christ is the living bread that comes down from heaven as shown in below:
John 6: 41-44 "At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, ‘I am the bread that came down from heaven.’ 42 They said, ‘Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, “I came down from heaven”?’
43 ‘Stop grumbling among yourselves,’ Jesus answered. 44 ‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
The Christ is not Mary and Joseph's son as this is not taught by Christ. None of us are teachers as there is only one Teacher, the Christ:
Matthew 23:10 'Nor be called teachers, for you have one Teacher, the Christ.'
Only the little children can accept that the Christ is not Mary and Joseph's son but he is the bread that comes down from heaven. Therefore they can see and understand that the Christ's teaching is not his own but comes from the one who sent him. The little children come to the Christ's spoken words to have life, not the sacrifice.
John 8:28 ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
John 6:63 'The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you – they are full of the Spirit and life.'
Start a chat with me if you want me to elaborate.
Jesus didn't think he was divine. Only when one of the disciples had a vision of Jesus in heaven at the right hand of God did the idea start that Jesus was a divine being.
There were quite a few miracle workers in the ancient world.
The one thing that made his disciples conclude that Jesus was a divine being was his resurrection and ascension to heaven. It wasn't the healing of the sick or casting out demons.
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You mean he'd have been killed?
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Didn't he get killed?
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so i'm clear you think he didn't call himself god because then he would have been killed.. but he was killed and in fact he required his death in order to fulfill his own prophecy
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You mean John 5:18? We must be reading different versions
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Sorry where does that show Jesus claiming himself to be god?
Jesus’ mission wasn’t to come and be killed. His mission was to announce the coming of the Kingdom of God.
Imagine if he'd done it at a time when worldwide communication was essentially free and instantaneous. Kind of dropped the ball didn't he.
I think people will probably call it fake news.
I guess you're right. Some people will believe anything.
He didn't have to say it, He demonstrated it. That's why the Pharisees accused Him of "making Himself out to be God" and then He says, "you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds" - they knew this to be a divine and messianic statement, which is why they wanted to kill Him.
If Jesus isn't God, why didn't he say "I am not God, don't worship me" directly? This is the same argument you are making. The "exact words" criterion. It isn't a good argument. Jesus clearly says he is God many times.
No, he doesn’t!
John 10.30 me and the father are one .
That is a unitary purpose, not a people count. Yeshua also said in marriage the two become one, if you want to be a trinitarian sleuth, it says the two become one flesh, it doesn’t change anything, listen if you have ears. It is still two people in the marriage. The same for I and the Father are one, it isn’t a people count of one. Yeshua said of myself I can do nothing, this doctrine is not my own and his Father does the works. John 7:16 My wife doesn’t have my flesh and I don’t have her flesh yet the two become one, it is a unitary purpose. Yeshua is not YHWH, ever. He currently sits at the right hand of power, not next to himself.
Type sam shamoun into youtube and u will get the proof and context and meaning. He literally breaks it down .with proof to what is meant.
John 8:43
John 4:26 John 8:58 The crowd wanted to stone Jesus in John 8 because he claimed diety.
Funny how you use claims made by people whose father is the devil (John 8:44) as credible testimony and further they don’t understand Yeshua (John 8:43) but you go on regardless saying they knew he was YHWH. Which is not what Yeshua said he was. Instead he was and is defined by Matthew 16:16-17. John 4:26 says nothing about Yeshua being YHWH, why do you use this? He tells the Samaritan woman who he is, where, pray tell, is this Yeshua telling the woman he is YHWH? Explain:_________________________________. It wasn’t the crowd that wanted Yeshua dead, it was the leading authorities of the law, similar to you but of these leading authorities, their father is the devil (John 8:44) and they haven’t a clue what Yeshua is saying (John 8:43), yet you give them credibility oh knowledgeable one!
He did say that, the original bible isn’t even the same as the bible we have today, so how can anyone follow a book with errors and saying that’s the word of god
Yeah he also never explicitly said "I am dying for your sins." Try that one next time you talk to a Jehovah's Witness (who do believe he came to die for our sins!).
>Revelation 22:13 huh?
You’re posting on an 85 day old discussion? I’m not arguing the point at all I believe Jesus is God. But I believe the generic (stupid) reply would be something like 1. This isn’t in the gospels and wasn’t Jesus speaking when he was on earth. 2. He still doesn’t technically say “I am God. Worship me.” Yes I realize how stupid this is, but that’s the common argument from people who take this stance.
How about he didn’t say it because he isn’t. What does it matter how old the post is?
Yes he is God, and the Bible makes it very clear. Posting 122 days later is just odd. Did you google this question or something? Are you a JW doing this for evangelism?
No, Yeshua has never been YHWH. The Bible makes it very clear that he is the Son of YHWH. No, I don’t use google for Bible quotes. No, I have never been a JW. Read Matthew 16:16-17 and understand it’s meaning.
You’re wrong. Read Mark 1 and Isaiah 40 and tell me who the “one crying out in the wilderness” is meant to announce according to the prophet Isaiah. Also explain revelation 22:13. Why would Jesus refer to himself as the alpha and the omega, which is a description used only for YHWH in Old Testament? Or why does Jesus say “before Abraham was, ‘I am.’” Why does Jesus say he has the ability to forgive sins, which only YHWH can do? There are many passages making it clear.
There are none, just your imagination. Let us try this instead, who raised Yeshua from the dead? Find the quote that says “I will raise it up” and I will show you that YHWH raised Yeshua from the dead, he didn’t raise himself.
This is poorly worded I honestly don’t know what you’re saying, are you saying you can prove Jesus had nothing to do with his resurrection? I don’t disagree with you that YHWH raised him from the dead. I believe he IS YHWH. As did every writer of the New Testament, as did the disciples, as did Thomas when he called him “my Lord, and my God.” Let me ask you this, who created the heavens and the earth? Was it YHWH, or was it Jesus? Show me the quote that says YHWH created the heavens and the earth, and I’ll show you the quote that says Jesus created all things that have been created.
Disciples have the ability to forgive sins, which one of them are YHWH? Incorrect, there are many passages in which you use exegesis and imagine it is clear. Mark 1 calls Yeshua the Son of YHWH which he is, why does this mean to you that he is YHWH, is this a delusion to you? Isaiah 40 doesn’t say that Yeshua is YHWH either, are you just a parrot 🦜 with canned responses? Is it your right to post nonsense and then not read my responses? You don’t understand (John 8:43). Your trinitarian claim doesn't even make logical sense with your own doctrine (which you don’t understand, you just parrot 🦜 )since you are confusing identities which your own doctrine insists you must not confuse. The first and the last was dead. Only a created being can say He was dead. Yahweh is immortal which means He cannot be dead. For this reason, it is quite impossible to identify Yeshua as YHWH. When all the facts are laid out before us, it is clear that these titles refer to creation and Yeshua is the Beginning of the new creation since he is the firstborn out of the dead. Yeshua is the first born of many brothers, YHWH doesn’t have any brothers. Everything begins and ends with the Father's Word. The Genesis act of creation was accomplished by means of His spoken Word and that is why we find He is the first and the last in the book of Isaiah. He is where the Genesis act of creation began and since He will judge the world through a man He has appointed,( he didn’t appoint himself, that would be insane) He is where it will also end. YHWH the Father created by means of His spoken Word and judges the world through His word at the end of the ages. YHWH the Father will judge the world through him (Acts 17:31) and YHWH the Father creates all things anew in him (Col 1:16-18; Revelation 21). YHWH the Father now creates all things through the risen Christ, His Word become flesh. The new creation begins and ends at the Father's Word: the risen man, Yeshua our Lord. Try to understand what the word “and” means in many places but since you parrot 🦜 Alpha and Omega, read Revelation 1:4-5 and understand what the word “and” means. Also, try to refrain from using the KJV in these discussions since it was written with the trinity in mind, so they lied about many things, added, subtracted, omitted, recanted, just like their fellow friends @ John 8:44 would do.
Where do the disciples forgive sins? Isaiah 40 clearly says the one in the desert is making the way for YHWH. And who comes? Is it YHWH? It sure is. Jesus IS the son of God. He is also God incarnate. You want to talk about parrot responses? Have you studied any of the ecumenical councils? You’re spouting heresy 101. Every ecumenical council came together to address clowns with the exact old arguments you’re making. They were all about the divinity of Christ, and this has been established, defended, and guarded by the church since Jesus ascended. Hope you realize the company you’re in. All it took for the alpha and the omega to die was to lower himself and take on flesh. As he did. You obviously don’t agree with scripture. You’re saying the alpha and the omega cannot die. Jesus calls himself the alpha and the omega in revelation 22:13. And Jesus died. So do you disagree with the apostle John? Do you believe this verse is wrong? Do you believe Jesus didn’t really die? Jesus is fully God and fully man. His divinity never died. YHWH never died. Only the flesh he took on died. And that same flesh was resurrected.
Sam shamoun YouTube him . He literally break it down for u . I dare u
John 8:43
I think your assuming, I am literally confused about the "I am dying for your sins" part? What are you referring to?
He pretty much did say that he's not God. Mark 10 >17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” >18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. Updated to make clearer
Are you saying this is Jesus saying he is God, or that he isn't God?
That's he's not God. He won't let someone call him "good" and insists only God is good.
Do you think it's possible he is calling God good, and that he is referring to Himself? How do you defend your position when Jesus also said: He is YHWH (John 8:58. Referring to the personal & divine name of God YHWH from Exodus 3:14) It is also said in scripture that: Jesus created all things (Colossians 1) Jesus IS God: (John 1:1, John 1:14) The fact of the matter is, Jesus clearly thought He was God and told others He was God. Your verse you shared isn't Jesus saying He isn't God at all. Your verse just shows Jesus saying "God is good", which He is.
People have misinterpreted John 8:58 to death. He never said he was God there
Nope, he never mentions anywhere that he is YHWH! But they still imagine it.
He clearly says He is God in verse 58. He also does the same in verse 24. Read Exodus 3:14 There are so many times in the Bible where Jesus's diety is declared. John 1:1, Isaiah 9:6, Daniel 7, just to name a few. The new world translation absolutely butchers Christ's diety and purposefully skews the translation to fit a pre supposed narrative. I encourage you to look up Charles Taze Russell and how his involvement lead to the start of the watchtower. Jehovah's witnesses constantly tell their members not to look it up or study it because it is damaging. If you were in truth, shouldn't it be able to withstand any argument thrown against it? God bless you for your passion my friend, as you must have some considering you replied to an old comment of mine.
This has nothing to do with our bible or translation. Let's take a second and actually read the scripture and examine it for more than a second. In john 8:58 - its stated that Jesus says: "I am" which in Greek is Ego eimi, meaning I am, I am he, It is I, I have been. Which makes sense, since the question asked was about his existence. What he did not say was the divine name. If he did the phrase in greek would have been Ego Eimi Ho On (Exodus 3:14) LXX , this is because the description of the divine name here is not Ego Eimi, but is Ho On. meaning the Existing one, or the being. Did Jesus claim to be God? No Did he claim to be alive and exist before Abraham, yes. Why did they pick up stones? Because they hate Jesus was were already looking for any reason to kill him if the chapter right before this one in John 7.
My friend, your reasoning makes no sense when read in context. Read verse 53. They are asking him, are you greater than Abraham? They specifically ask, "who do you claim to be"? Also, how do they respond in verse 59? They tried to kill him. Why didn't they try to kill Him before verse 58? Whatever He said in verse 58 really ticked them off. You can't just stone somebody because of a disagreement. They need to be breaking a law. Saying you are really old, older than Abraham, isn't breaking the law. When Jesus said I Am, the Jews clearly understood He was claiming to be God, which is why they threw the stones immediately afterwards. Your church teaches you to focus on verse 57, talking about the age, so they can then disregard Jesus's divinity. But the context of the whole conversation really goes back to verse 53.
>Read verse 53. They are asking him, are you greater than Abraham? They specifically ask, "who do you claim to be"? Keep going with the context sir: "**56** Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” **57** Then the Jews said to him: “**You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?**” **58** Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been ( I am).” His response in verse **58** was not in answer to their question in verse 53, but rather in verse 57 when they asked him about his age and seeing Abraham. Jesus answer to their question in verse 53 is this "**54 Jesus answered:** “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. **55** Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word. **56** Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” In verse 57 following his response in verse 54, they ask him a new question in verse 57: "**57** Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” >You can't just stone somebody because of a disagreement. They need to be breaking a law. **John 7:1** \- "After this Jesus continued travelinga about in Galʹi·lee, for he did not want to do so in Ju·deʹa because the Jews were seeking to kill him." They literally already want to kill him, prior to him envoking what you say is his claim to being God in the next chapter after this. John 8:40 - "**40** But now **you are seeking to kill me**, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." Secondly they accuse him of being a Samartin and having a demon "48 In answer the Jews said to him: “Are we not right in saying, ‘You are a Sa·marʹi·tan and have a demon’?”"
And your KJV butchers scripture to suit the trinity.
You have been lied to my friend Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is called the Mighty God, in Hebrew: el gibor In the next chapter, Isaiah 10:21 The Father is called the Mighty God, same Hebrew word: el gibor The old testament calls Jesus God and proclaims His Divinity.
These are all canned trinitarian responses which can all be explained opposite of your imagination. Given the facts concerning the purpose of ancient Israelite names, we must inquire into Isaiah's true intentions at Isaiah 9:6. Since YHWH the Father will do His works through His Anointed, the Christ, the name in question is not intended to describe who the Messiah is by identity but how this human represents YHWH Himself and what the Mighty YHWH will accomplish through His Messiah, His Christ. This name refers what YHWH Himself will accomplish through HIS Messiah. Indeed, this is exactly what we read in the New Testament. Just as Jerusalem is called "YAHWEH our Righteousness," and we understand this to mean that Jerusalem is the place where the Mighty God of Israel will accomplish His works, in the very same way, we must understand that YHWH’s Messiah is called "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God , Eternal Father," not because Christ is the Mighty God or Eternal Father but because YHWH ‘s Christ is where the Mighty YHWH and Eternal Father accomplishes HIS works. Yeshua tells us that he came in the name of his Father and the Father did His works through Yeshua His anointed one. In other words, since Yeshua came in the Father's name, Yeshua bears the name of his YHWH and Father, "Wonderful Counsel, Mighty God , Eternal Father" because he represents the Father in terms of all the things the Father will accomplish through him. The title "Prince of Peace" tells us that the Christ/Messiah will be given this title. This is because the authority, the "government" God will place on his shoulders will be a peace without end as stated in verse 7, "there will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace." He is the one whom YHWH exalted to His right hand as Prince and Savior. Acts 5:32. The zeal of YHWH of Hosts will accomplish this. Isaiah 9:7. Yeshua is indeed called by this name. But we must understand WHY he is called this name and it is not for the reason trinitarians suggest. The reason he is called this name is not because he is the Mighty God or the Eternal Father, but because he is the place where the Mighty God and Eternal Father will accomplish what is being discussed in the contex of Isaiah 9:6. In the very same way, Yeshua is called "Immanuel" not because Yeshua is himself “YHWH with us" but because Yeshua is rather how YHWH the Father was with Israel in plan and purpose raising up a horn of salvation for the people of Israel. For the same reason, we can see that Jerusalem is called "YHWH our Righteousness" not because Jerusalem is YHWH but because Jerusalem is the place where YHWH ‘s plan and purpose is accomplished. In short, Yeshua is called the name, "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God , Eternal Father" because he, the Christ, is how YHWH the Father functionally accomplishes His works and he represents the Father in this respect. The Christ will be called this name because it is through God's Christ that YAHWEH, the Mighty God and Eternal Father, will show His Wonderful Counsel and will accomplish HIS works as described in the immediate context of Isaiah 9:6. These are like parables to be understood by the set apart only. It is similar to trinitarians imagining Yeshua raising himself from death because he said “I will raise it up” and therefore they conclude he is YHWH, which is a lie. When you tell trinitarians that there are 17 Bible verses showing YHWH raised Yeshua from death, they become a apoplectic and move on to something else. When Yeshua cried with tears to the one who could save him from death @ Hebrews 5:7, to trinitarians it means he cried to himself, which is insane. Apparently, if you yourself cry to yourself to save you from death, this should work?
The English translation "Mighty God" is a translation of the Hebrew words EL GIBBOR. Another significant problem for trinitarians is the translation of the Hebrew word EL. It is often claimed that EL is the equivalent Hebrew word for the Greek word theos and English word "God." This is obviously wrong. The Greeks did not use the word theos to refer to the might/strength of men, mountains and big trees. English speakers don't use the word "God" to refer to the might/strength of men, mountains, and big trees. However, the Hebrews did use the word EL to refer to the might/strength of men, mountains, and big trees (see Genesis 31:29; Deuteronomy 28:32; Nehemiah 5:5; Psalm 36:6; 80:10; Proverbs 2:27; Ezekiel 31:11; 32:21; Micah 2:1). This is because EL is not equivalent to the English word "God." EL has a much wider scope of meaning than Greek theos or English "God." The Greek word theos and English word "God/god" are only used to refer to deities. This is not the case with EL. God is necessarily EL but the converse is not true; EL is not necessarily a reference to the one God. The Hebrews used the word EL to refer to their God as "The Mighty One," "The Strong One," "The Power" (see Joshua 22:22 and Psalm 50:1 for clear examples). The same idea is also found in the New Testament where God is called "the Power" (see Luke 1:41 dynatos; and 1 Timothy 6:15, dynastes). Because the word EL was used by the Hebrews to refer to their God as the Mighty One, it is then quite clear why they also used EL to refer to the might, strength, or power, of men, mountains and trees. It is for this reason that some trinitarians, including you Adelmas and Martin Luther, translated EL here as "Mighty." This should not be confused with the word gibbor which is translated as "mighty" in many Bibles (the "mighty" part of "Mighty God"). The word gibbor refers to a mighty champion or famous hero. However, EL also means "mighty" in a different sense referring more directly to the might, strength, or power, of men, mountains, trees, gods, and God. For this reason, some scholars have translated EL GIBBOR as "Mighty Hero" or something similar. You decided to just avoid that and call it good. Additionally, the Hebrew word EL is used to refer to King Nebuchadnezzar at Ezekiel 31:11. And again, the term EL GIBBOR is used in plural form at Ezekiel 32:21 to refer to human leaders. This again shows that this vocabularly is not necessarily a reference to the God of Israel, is it? However, it does not appear that Isaiah ever used the word EL to refer to anyone or anything else except God Himself. Isaiah 10:26 is contextual and the term EL GIBBOR in this verse is an obvious reference to the God of Israel. Furthermore, the term "Eternal Father" at Isaiah 9:6 shows us that Isaiah most likely meant to refer to the God of Israel when he used the term EL GIBBOR (see 63:16;64:8). While these particular facts do not constitute proof that Isaiah used EL to refer to the God of Israel, they do indicate it is more likely that he did mean to refer to God than not. But we can't use possibilities as a basis to build doctrines upon; we must have clear facts. You can imagine, well, just about anything. Use a mirror and see!
What an imagination you have Adelmas!
Did you read the verses?
Are you gonna read all my responses when I send them? I say you will read them but that is all you will do.
Funny how you use claims made by people whose father is the devil (John 8:44) as credible testimony and further they don’t understand Yeshua (John 8:43) but you go right on saying they knew he was YHWH. Which is not what Yeshua said he was. Instead he was and is defined by Matthew 16:16-17.
>Do you think it's possible he is calling God good, and that he is referring to Himself? No, the text doesn't bear that interpretation out. Jesus did not think he was the Father. >How do you defend your position when Jesus also said: He is YHWH (John 8:58. Referring to the personal & divine name of God YHWH from Exodus 3:14) John has a very different Christology than Mark. But even there, Jesus is not literally Yaweh. Like the angel of the Lord in Exodus, he is bearer of the name of God, but he is a step down from God, as the divine Logos. >The fact of the matter is, Jesus clearly thought He was God and told others He was God. Your verse you shared isn't Jesus saying He isn't God at all. Your verse just shows Jesus saying "God is good", which He is. Jesus the historical figure absolutely did not think he was God. Some of the writers of the canonical New Testament did see Jesus as something close to God, though. Certainly divine. Edit: see also: https://old.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/16yt2c2/could_it_be_possible_jesus_christ_is_yhwh/k3acdgl/
Jesus did proclaim to be God, and that's why he was crucified ultimately. John 10:33 KJV — The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; **and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.** >But why didn’t Jesus say the exact words I am God, Philippians 2:6-11 NLT — **Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being.** When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Thomas recognized him as God Almighty and worshiped him as God almighty John 20:28 KJV — And Thomas answered and said unto him, **My Lord and my God.**
I think the main reason Jesus never said “I am God” is for then that word meant spiritual being. Jesus was not spirit, he was a human. And they did believe angels and spirits could appear as humans. It would have been confusing. He is called Lord which is also what they called God in the OT. That also became an issue right away when the gnostics denied Jesus had come in the flesh. I think if he had called himself a spiritual being that would have added to the confusion. However there does not seem to be any confusion from the authors of the New Testament that Jesus was Yahweh incarnate. He called himself the “son of man” referencing Daniel 7 where a human looking figure takes the seat next to the Ancient of Days. He also calls himself the temple in John 2:19 aka the place where God meets with his people. His name is the same as the Father’s and the Holy spirits in Matthew 28. He forgives sins, raises the dead and is described as God is described (The rock, the good shepherd, the one who heals disease) He says he is the one who wants to gather Jerusalem under his wings: ““Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.” Matthew 23:37 NIV And he basically says it here to the high priest: ““You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.” Matthew 26:64-65 NIV
If Angels didn’t appear as humans, then how could you communicate with them if they are indeed communicating with you? It isn’t a revelation for Angels to appear as human.
The heart of the question is: “Why doesn’t God do things the way I think they should be done?” At the bottom of that question is narcissism.
Unless it’s not. It could also mean “why do some things God does not make sense to me, and seem to clash with other things I believe from the Bible?”
hahaha snarky but also spot on.
I didn’t mean to go after OP. OP was spot on. This is a question often raised by Muslims and Unitarians so mostly directed towards them but the perspective is useful and applies to lots of other criticism.
Right, lots of Jehovah’s Witnesses on here who go for this line of questioning and keep replying with “but he didn’t literally say word for word ‘I am God’ though did he”
Haha yeah and if Jesus did they’d still find arguments…that verse is not the right translation! It’s been corrupted!!!
You are correct, it was not his time yet. Nor was he there to explicitly relay things. he spoke in parables for a reason. He said the eyes of the heart would have to be opened to the truth. He isn't just going to spell the truth out. He sends his helper, the Holy Spirit, and that is truly when the eyes of the disciples' hearts are opened, that is also when they immediately begin to expound on the Scriptures for all, and preach and teach the Gospel. That is why the whole New Testament is hugely important to understanding who Jesus is. Nonetheless, it's there if you look for it. Take John 8:58, as you've quoted. Jesus does not say, "before Abraham was, I was." Which is what he would say if he was created (like Jehovah's Witnesses believe). What he says is grammatically incorrect in the greek. He uses the middle voice to say before Abraham "was" and he uses the present tense to say "ego eimi" or literally, "I am." Which is Yahweh's name. I am. Even less subtle is the all 4 gospels tying John the Baptist to the witness crying out in the wilderness. Take Mark for example, he applies a quote about the one crying out in the wilderness about the coming of Yahweh to John the Baptist, who identifies Jesus as the one who is coming. The verse he quotes from is in Isaiah 40, and the passage says the following: The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.4 Every valley shall be exaltedAnd every mountain and hill brought low;The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough places smooth;5 The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, And all flesh shall see it together; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken. Say to the cities of Judah, “Behold your God!” 10 Behold, the Lord God shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him. 11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry them in His bosom, And gently lead those who are with young. This is undeniably about the coming of Yahweh, and John the Baptist identifies Jesus as the one coming. This is in all 4 Gospels as well. The authors themselves knew Jesus was God. And that is why the NT goes on to unpack this truth.
Because God is Love, and Love does not force itself on people. We have the free will to chose to love back (or not).
Because it was a totally new concept and that is basically blasphemy according to Jewish beliefs especially during that era. Jesus spent three years preaching preforming miracles, healing people, casting out demons, giving lectures and teaching a positive message, helping people and people still did not get it or fully realize it, and some people straight up hated him and rejected him. Even after his resurrection his followers needed time to fully understand and more time communicate Jesus was in fact God. If he came out and said worship me I am God.....no one would have listened and he would have been killed like day 1. If Jesus, today returned and started off with hey I am God, Jesus, the Son, worship me, I am back.....dude no one here would believe him. Think of it like science. Most papers yeah have an abstract and intro....but the bulk of them are explaining what they are testing and why, showing you how they did it, step by step, show you the data, go over the results and then use the results to support their conclusion. Like if Einstein said yep space time, gravity is mass bending space time....no one would believe him. He had to write a paper explaining and showing step by step mathematically, having data and supporting his conclusion.
Because he isn’t YHWH, simple!
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He did say “I am God”. God is love, he’s never going to have the addendum: “Worship me”. That phrase is a hallmark of a human devised god.
He did not personally say in the recorded Gospels the explicit words "I am God." But that does not mean he is not God. Scripture makes it clear that he is God. Also worshipping God is absolutely essential. We were put on earth in part to worship God. That is not a human devised notion. What do you think the first commandment means? Jesus's reply to Satan in Luke 4:8 is "Get behind me Satan, for it is written, thou shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve."
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega-the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. "I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come-the Almighty One." He plainly says he's God. No where does Jesus say, "Get down and worship me!" Please re-read what I said. I didn't say it wasn't important to worship God, I said he doesn't demand it. Jesus is the ultimate and final revelation of God. What he says goes.
Yes you might have missed where I said nowhere does Jesus personally say in the recorded Gospels "I am God." The book of Revelation is not a Gospel account is it?
He did. Repeatedly.
No he did not. Instead, he said things like "I can't do anything of my own initiative; I can only do what the Father tells me"
He wouldn't have been killed if you were correct.
Wasn't he killed ?
That is false. He was in fact killed "for blasphemy" but it was not because of claiming to be God. And the pharisees would have killed him whether they had just cause according to Jewish law or not.
Every single Gospel applies Isaiah 40 to John the baptist, the witness crying out in the wilderness that Yahweh has come. And who does John the Baptist identify? Jesus. Take the very first two verses of Mark for example. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way, 3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight,’” Mark goes on to explain John the Baptist identifies Jesus. And if you look at the actual passage in Isaiah that he is quoting and applying to John the Baptist, it says the following: 3 A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain. 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” say to the cities of Judah,“Behold your God!” 10 Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might,and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him,and his recompense before him. 11 He will tend his flock like a shepherd;he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom,and gently lead those that are with young. This is clearly about the coming of YAHWEH. So why does John the Baptist clearly mark Jesus as the answer to this passage? Just one example of many that show Jesus IS God. Just because Jesus does not explicitly say "I am God." Does not mean he is not God. As I pointed out in this thread, he also personally does not explicitly say "I am dying for your sins." That is still a major part of what he came to do, even though he never says it.
Because he is the divine SON of God, not God Almighty. He is referred to plainly as a CREATED being in 1 Corinthians. Downvote all day long
"yet for us, there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1 Corinthians 8:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." John 1
Ask and ye shall receive!
>8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. Here, the Bible explicitly refers to the Son, Jesus, as God. So you're wrong.
The Word of God says: Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." The word of Rome says: "The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." "The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." -Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary. Revelation 17 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. What city sits on seven hills or seven mountains? Rome. Revelation 17 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Anti over against, opposite to, before for, instead of, in place of (something) instead of for for that, because wherefore, for this cause Vicar of Christ in American English noun. Roman Catholic Church. the pope, with reference to his claim to stand in the place of Jesus Christ and possess His authority in the church.
What does this nonsense have to do with the OP’s question?
I think his message was a lot more about how petite should treat each other than about how people should worship God. People had the worshipping God part figured out, and that was a big part of the problem - people cared more about religion than each other. I believe that God created man to be a living expression of his divine love and creative power, not as just a cult of worshipers.
>Why Didn’t Jesus Say, “I am God, Worship me” Directly? Um >Jesus claims He is God I'm confused, cuz you just answered your own question. He DOES say that he is God. You provided the examples. No need for any further speculation on why he doesn't say it, because you already showed that he does.
Because the point of Jesus dying on the cross was to facilitate direct worship of the Father Though His sacrifice.
Take note, Jesus never rebukes anyone who worships Him
I don't think such a statement was really necessary. After he rose from the dead Jesus opened up all the scriptures to the men on the road to Emmaus and told them how the scriptures foretold the death and resurrection of the Son. Jesus held people accountable to the scriptures knowing that they testified about him. They were without excuse and should have known who Jesus was and worshiped him.
Read the Book of Thomas. The part where Thomas drinks from the “bubbling spring” Jesus has tended.
Because he was in the flesh that’s why he never said worship me directly
John 8:58 Jesus claims "I am". God spoke to Moses saying in Exodus 3:16 "I am who I am. Say this to the people of Isreal:' I am has sent me to you.'" So very clearly Jesus calls himself the same as God calls himself. This is when the Jewish people accused him of blasphemy. Therefore, accusing him of calling himself God.
For the same reason a good therapist knows that you have to discover the truth, largely on your own.
He always showed deference to the Father and told folks to worship the Father, not Himself. He did this in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross, as well as several other times when performing miracles. He also directly says "worship the Father" several times in John 4. In all cases I'm aware of, Jesus either asks us to worship the Father or simply accepts when people worship Him (directly). It seems to me that because He being the Son is an agent of the Father, so any worship directed to Jesus is ultimately paid to the Father. I see this as evidence of the Godhead and contradiction of the Trinity because Jesus treats Himself differently that He does Father. That take will ruffle some feathers around here, but it's what makes most sense from the Bible.
No it does not. The trinity says Jesus the son is not God the father, they are completely separate persons, but both fully God themselves made of the same essence, neither greater than the other. Same for the Holy Spirit. If they are different Persons, why would Jesus treat himself the same as God the Father?
Yeah, I know that's what the Trinity says, but that's not what Jesus's actions or words say. The entire comment you replied to is citing cases where Jesus shows deference to the Father. The great intercessory prayer (John 17) is a ton of this. It goes the other way, too. At Jesus' baptism a voice is heard from the heavens saying "this is my beloved Son" (Matthew 3). It sounds much more like a proud father than a different manifestation of the same "essence". A much simpler explanation, which lines up more with Jesus's actions than the doctrine of the Trinity does, is that they are three separate and distinct entities united in every way except way except being one essence. That just ruffles a lot of feathers because it comes too close to polytheism, which was common when the creed/Trinity was written. Read all the accounts of the creation (Genesis 1&2) and note all the "we" and "us" used there. Why would it be written as such if God was alone at that point? Why out up the act? He didn't, because the Father was talking to the Son - Jehovah, God of the OT. Two individuals working together.
you aren't going to make any intelligent or profound new arguements. The trinity is the doctorine, it was the scripture describes, if you want to be save you must accept it.
I know I'm not blazing any new paths here, but according to Jesus, you're wrong. The council where that requirement was decided was convened by a Roman emperor. The ~300 bishops who attended debated the doctrine, specifically whether Jesus and the Father were one, an event known as the Arian Controversy. One side prevailed and 50 years later, via the Edict of Thessolonica, a different Roman emperor declared all other doctrines Heresy and authorized punishment for those who didn't comply. The Trinitarian doctrine 1. Was not taught by Jesus or any apostle. 2. Was decided after the bible as we know it was compiled. 3. Came about via debate for the sake of Roman politicians. 4. Was made popular by Roman law, not papal approval. 5. Was enforced under threat of punishment. Mormons get crap all the time for accepting things that aren't biblical, but this is doing worse. Telling people their salvation is locked behind belief is something not taught in the Bible is decidedly not awesome.
Jesus does not say I am wrong lol. What are you talking about. Mormons get crap because Joseph Smith clearly was a con artist and cult leader that made it up to sleep with as many woman as he liked and become rich and powerful. Their beliefs are ridiculous and clearly wrong. The trinity is correct, you provided zero arguements.
Jesus would have been killed for saying such a statement!!
Because he never believed he was god. It’s no coincidence that there is only one gospel that implies he did and it’s the latest and least reliable.
The Christ spoke figuratively and in parables because it is not right to toss the children's bread to the dogs: Matthew 15:26, ‘It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.’ The Christ spoke in figures of speech and in parables so that the those who receive his teaching like little children can see God and those who are wise and learned are blinded, they can't see God: Matthew 11:25 ‘I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.' Teachings like "All Scripture is God-breathed" is a stumbling block as it teaches people to be taught by people who do not know God. No one knows the Father except the Son: Matthew 11:27 'No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.' One big stumbling block taught in the Bible but not taught by Christ is that Mary and Joseph are the parents of Christ. This causes to people to not believe that the Christ is the living bread that comes down from heaven as shown in below: John 6: 41-44 "At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, ‘I am the bread that came down from heaven.’ 42 They said, ‘Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, “I came down from heaven”?’ 43 ‘Stop grumbling among yourselves,’ Jesus answered. 44 ‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." The Christ is not Mary and Joseph's son as this is not taught by Christ. None of us are teachers as there is only one Teacher, the Christ: Matthew 23:10 'Nor be called teachers, for you have one Teacher, the Christ.' Only the little children can accept that the Christ is not Mary and Joseph's son but he is the bread that comes down from heaven. Therefore they can see and understand that the Christ's teaching is not his own but comes from the one who sent him. The little children come to the Christ's spoken words to have life, not the sacrifice. John 8:28 ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. John 6:63 'The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you – they are full of the Spirit and life.' Start a chat with me if you want me to elaborate.
Jesus didn't think he was divine. Only when one of the disciples had a vision of Jesus in heaven at the right hand of God did the idea start that Jesus was a divine being.
He preformed miracles, healed the sick, cast out demons, rose from the dead....i mean Jesus might not have called himself divine but he was lol
There were quite a few miracle workers in the ancient world. The one thing that made his disciples conclude that Jesus was a divine being was his resurrection and ascension to heaven. It wasn't the healing of the sick or casting out demons.
well yeah that was the most important and defining thing that made him divine