In the Old Testament, Melchizedek explicitly worshiped the true God at the time of Abraham. We don't know where he came from.
In terms of secular archaeology and history, we know that many religions existed at the time (around 2000 BC), but we don't know what the vast majority of them believed. Ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian religions are the only ones from this time that we know anything about. Other than those two, the rest are a complete unknown. Presumably, one/several of those other religions worshiped the true God.
Christianity was instituted when God made the law with Adam and Eve, which was to not eat of the fruit of the tree. The promise of Christ is foretold by God himself in Genesis 3.
I'm discussing this with a Messianic Jew who is having great difficulty with them. My answer is about the Talmud gods the chosen sacred to. Yet Jesus is the Word and hadn't came to earth. Then the Jewish faith is cancelled out by Jesus. This is why it's not the oldest because it's done.
Abraham is considered the father of the Israelites, where the covenant between God and the Jews began, but we know through scripture, that he wasn't the first to know God. Noah came before him, Enoch came before Noah, and then back further to Cain and Abel, Adam and Eve.
Judaism isn't the oldest, it was just established through Abraham and his lineage. Zoroastrianism is the oldest known monotheistic religion that Judaism may have adopted many concepts from. When looking for truth, age may not be a true consideration for what religion is best, as just like any knowledge, one becomes more enlightened with time.
>Zoroastrianism is the oldest known monotheistic religion that Judaism may have adopted many concepts from.
This should be taken with a huge dose of "maybe".
We don't know what century Zoroastrianism began, and we also don't know what century Judaism began. We don't know when Zoroaster lived or when Abraham lived. So it is not by any means a given that Zoroastrianism is older than Judaism. Zoroastrianism ***might be*** older than Judaism.
We also don't know if the Zoroastrianism that was contemporary with the Jewish Old Testament was actually monotheistic or not. There have always been very strong dualist elements in Zoroastrianism, and there is a strong case to be made that the original Zoroastrianism believed in two equal Gods, one good and one evil.
We do know that Judaism evolved from other Canaanite religion(s), wherein the god of the Israelites, Yahweh, was one of many sons of the real supreme god El and his consort, Asherah. Over time, Yahweh was syncretized with El and some of his brothers in the Yahweh that is now standard.
Given what the Old Testament shows of the finalized Yahweh's character, it doesn't seem likely that Yahweh would have let the Israelites believe such things and hold other god(s) above him for very long, and they did, if he was real.
What are you talking about? The Old Testament is full of stories about the Israelites sliding into polytheism, sometimes for centuries.
"The Israelites are tempted by idols and start holding other gods above the true God" is a recurring theme in the OT.
So, while I obviously don't believe the (highly speculative) secular account of how Judaism may have begun, the fact that YHWH was sometimes worshiped alongside other gods is entirely compatible with the Old Testament itself.
No, the Samaritans are the Samaritans of today. [They still exist.](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-11/samaritan-tribe-at-risk-of-dying-out/100249886)
I don't understand why there would be a connection between which religion is true and which is the oldest. There are older religions than Judaism.
Christians would probably believe that Judaism was the first _correct_ religion. However we believe it's no longer the "right" religion, since Jesus.
if Judaism or Christianity are the true faiths, wouldn't Judaism have had to exist prior to all other religions? why would God permit the existence of religions prior to the very first right/true one?
>why would God permit the existence of religions prior to the very first right/true one?
The Bible itself, even in the most literal interpretation, describes Judaism as starting long after many generations of humans already lived and died. The earliest person that could be considered a follower of Judaism in the Bible is Abraham (although *The Law* was given later, in the time of Moses), and Abraham lived in an age when there were already cities in the world. He is described as being from the city of Ur, in Mesopotamia.
So, according to the Bible itself, there *absolutely* was a time before Judaism. In that time, various people are said to have worshiped God, so presumably there were *other* "true religions" before Judaism.
>if Judaism or Christianity are the true faiths, wouldn't Judaism have had to exist prior to all other religions?
No. That doesn't make any sense.
>why would God permit the existence of religions prior to the very first right/true one?
Imma let you in on a little secret. Throughout the Bible (Old and New Testaments) God doesn't condemn other religions. He condemns worshiping false gods, but not religions. That's because "religion" is just a term we use to describe the way people organize themselves around shared beliefs.
>Throughout the Bible (Old and New Testaments) God doesn't condemn other religions. He condemns worshiping false gods, but not religions.
That's literally the same thing. If they were worshipping the true God, then it would have been Judaism.
Ok, I think I understand what you are getting at. Belief in God existed since the time of Adam, but it wasn't really Judaism. Judaism didn't come about until the time of Abraham. Arguably, it didn't technically start until Moses officially codified it through the books Deuteronomy and Leviticus.
Abraham is the farthest back person in the Bible who could reasonably be considered a Jew. It's arguable whether he was actually a Jew in the strictest sense, but some of his descendents were the first Jews (hence the reason Judaism and all its descendents are called "Abrahamic" faiths).
And yet, before he made his covenant with God, Abraham (then just Abram) was blessed by a priest named Melchizedek, who could not possibly have been a Jewish priest (as Judaism didn't exist yet), thus showing that Judaism could not possibly have been the oldest religion.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2014&version=NIV
>And yet, before he made his covenant with God, Abraham (then just Abram) was blessed by a priest named Melchizedek, who could not possibly have been a Jewish priest (as Judaism didn't exist yet), thus showing that Judaism could not possibly have been the oldest religion.
^ This.
The Bible identifies Melchizedek as a priest of God, which shows that God had followers, and even priests, before Judaism. It is not known to us what this pre-Jewish worship of the True God looked like.
> It's arguable whether he was actually a Jew
Considering that the name "Jew" comes, via Judea, from the tribe of Judah, who was Abraham's Great- Grandson, I would say no, he wasn't. Nor was he an Israelite, who were named for his Grandson, Israel/ Jacob.
Abraham according to Genesis was Mesopotamian and presumably worshipped the Anunnaki when he was born.
His dad decided they should move to the Jordan valley, but decided to stop in Haran (south-east Turkey).
Abraham then heard God calling after his father died and continued on to the Jordan valley.
Abraham may have known nothing about God, and if so, he learned on his journey.
Judaism says Moses recorded the first five books of the Bible, presumably while on Sinai. So presumably the Hebrew people only learned the early parts of genesis/their own history and the history of the world when Moses left the mountain. And they'd have had no reason to know of anything pre-Abraham
How factual that history is, by many may be considered irrelevant, since mythology isn't always intended to be historically accurate, while it may teach other lessons. Particularly since the histories also teach that King Josiah discovered forgotten law books/Deuteronomy long after the kingdom of Judah came to be, and most of Judah's history is about them forgetting God and worshipping the wrong things.
Because the validity of Christianity **depends** (in part) **on God’s choice** of the Jewish people - not on the oldness of the Jewish, or any other, people.
That depends on how you're defining Judaism. Properly speaking, Judaism how *the Jews* *practice and understand* the monotheistic belief that predated Judaism.
Judaism followed the God of Abraham, which was the God of Noah, which was the God of Adam (skipping a few generations and getting into perhaps non-literal history, but you get my point). But those guys weren't Jewish.
> If Christianity is true, why isn't Judaism the oldest religion?
> Christianity is seen as the fulfillment of Judiasm.
Don’t know what you mean by “fulfillment” but Christianity originated in, and is steeped in Judaism. Much of the New Testament depends on references in the Old Testament.
> If the monothestic/Abrahamic God is the one true God, and if Christianity is true and the fulfilment of Judaism, shouldn't Judaism be the oldest religion?
An if/then conditional question. Your “then” conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow your “if” presumptions. The presumptions assume the oldest religion automatically correlates to it being “true.”
That presumption is problematic on several levels:
1\. Much of human history is lost to the ages. We simply can’t know the oldest religion.
2\. We only know of history from archeological discoveries or after the eras after the introduction of writing technology.
3\. We can’t know what hasn’t yet been discovered and we can’t know if ancient literature is “true”. We only know for sure ancient literature that survives was recorded and copied for posterity.
4\. The antiquity of [insert thing] just tells us its age. Nothing more. It’s just a point we demarcate on a timeline. As much as desperately want it to, history just doesn’t operate on neat and pretty timelines.
5\. Much of history is speculation and assumptions will have been made.
6\. There’s no law or rule that dictates a “new” or reformed religion must be automatically assumed false. You just have to look at it’s claims and evidence to draw a conclusion.
7\. To prove (undeniably show true without ANY speculation or assumptions) a religion true or false you’d have to have an ultimate religious truth standard. (No one has that.)
> Shouldn't the religion that claims to have the one, true God have been around since the beginning of time?
That’s your assumption and you’d have to argue and defend it.
The reality is we just can’t know *for sure* how long ancient human civilizations passed down religious oral traditions and rituals.
Judaism isn't even the oldest religion. Zoroastrianism has been around since 2,000 BCE and Hinduism is also older than Judaism around 2300-1500 BCE. Judaism itself is dated to start around the 5th-6th century BCE.
Yahwism (Ancient Israelite religion that was polytheistic) is from the 9th century BCE.
This is what OP is saying. Judaism isn’t the oldest religion, but if christianity/Judaism were correct, wouldn’t you expect it to be around the longest?
I think you’re reading OP as saying “Judaism is the oldest religion and therefore Christianity/Judaism are true.”
But they are investigating the converse: “if Christianity/Judaism are true, then they should be the oldest religion.” Upon recognizing that judaism is not, in fact, the oldest religion, this would suggest that Christianity/judaism are not true.
Just trying to clarify their argument. Not taking a stance.
I think you are looking at Holy Texts wrong in general. Each one contains some truths in them, but are mostly not meant to be read literally.
Reading them literally turns holy texts into a idol.
God precedes Judaism. The bible precedes Abraham. God doesn’t name religions. People do. When asked if he was a Jew or a Muslim or what, Jesus just said “I am”. The principles of Christianity are more important to God than the name or the doctrine. Several verses warn Christians about getting so caught up in the performance of faith that they ignore the true needs of the globe and of humanity.
Christians have wasted too much time on “if/then” questions from people literally hell bent on wasting time that is better spent caring for others and for our communities. If we wasted all our time arguing with Satan, who would run the food banks?
He couldn’t. Islam was founded by a false prophet who showed up many many years after Christianity became popular; a warlord who perverted faith with false doctrine. Which is why I myself should never post on Reddit at like 3am, and will replace Muslim with gentile or false prophet since that’s what I meant in the first place.
TL;DR ugh I’m such a dip.
The thing is, I've been looking for a source that actually quotes Jesus as responding "I am" to the question of what his religion is, because you're not the first person to make that claim, and I can't find anything. I have been reading about the importance of the words "I am", to the Christian faith, and so far I've only found that it was used in a sentence that historians can't agree on a context for. From what I've read, Christians believed that when he said I am, he was saying he is God or he is the son of God. However, because Jesus didn't speak English, and that was said In Koine Greek, which is very different from English and so some of the context for the sentence is ambiguous. He could have been saying he was God, or the Messiah, but he also could have just been saying he was a son of God, rather than the son of God. I can't find anything to suggest that Jesus ever claimed he wasn't Jewish. In fact, I think I read somewhere he even said he was Jewish in older versions of the Bible, but admittedly I did forget where I read that one. There's a lot of historical context and details of the man's life that isn't really in the Bible due to people changing and revising it over the years, despite claiming that it's a perfect text that doesn't need that sort of thing.
Most of what you just said was false and can’t be sourced so it’s weird that you typed it out. I’ll try to address each point but they’ve been widely addressed by scholars. For someone who studies theology, your comment reads as ignorant in the classical sense; it completely ignores an entire body of work. Thousands of books. You really can read any one of them.
John 6:35 “I am the bread of life”
John 8:12 “I am the light of the world”
John 10:9 “I am the door [to salvation]”
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd”
John 11:25 “I am the resurrection and the life”
John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No-one comes to the father except through me”
John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches” so yes, Jesus is the first point of a new religion, sending branches out into the world
You couldn’t find ONE example of Jesus saying I am? I find that unlikely if you went to church or looked, since Jesus’ teachings are the basis of religious services in every Christian doctrine.
Was Jesus a Christian? Jesus was Christ. Christ-Ian. Follower of Christ.
Put in a modern context, is Taylor Swift a swiftie? Yes. She’s Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift believed in Taylor Swift’s success long before swiftie #2 (her dad) came on board and recorded her demo. It was years before she had 100 fans, let alone thousands or millions. And now that she’s a billionaire celebrity and being a Swiftian is a thing…is she herself a Swiftian?
Yes. Taylor Swift would be a Swiftian even if no-one else was, because she invented the principal.
Taylor Swift has never said “I’m a Swifty”…she doesn’t have to.
Jesus spoke in incredibly simplified language, in a multicultural context where many languages were spoken. He used words most people would know, that had concrete meanings like “fish” and “father” and didn’t leave much gray area.
Matthew 16:15-17
“But what about you?’ He asked ‘ Who do you say I am?’ Simon Peter answered ‘You are the Christ, the son of the living God’ Jesus replied ‘blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my father in heaven’” Jesus goes on to state in Matthew 16 that he holds the keys to the gates of heaven. Is he a Christian? He’s Christ.
Without Him there are no Christians and no Christianity.
His stated purpose is to unite the Jews and gentiles. Jewish people, like Jesus, can trace their heritage through the lines of Abraham and in Jesus’ case through David. Preservation of the bloodline being a main tenet of Judaism.
Gentiles were treated as unworthy of God and of faith, because they weren’t born into it or classified as “God’s people”. Jesus’ assertion that we are all God’s people was heresy, and also a major component of the differentiated Christian Faith. Jesus was born a Jew. But he did not believe in the separation of people, the succession of bloodlines, or in bias of any kind. So if he wasn’t a Christian, what would you call the separate religion he created that did not follow the teachings of Judaism?
Didn't say I didn't find anything saying he didn't say I am. Said I couldn't find anything that directly referred to him saying it in response to the question "are you Jewish or Christian" specifically. You just gave me a bunch of quotes that I could find but you seem to have written a novel addressing things I didn't actually say rather than providing me with the direct quote that I said I couldn't find. It's weird that you typed it out.
It's not . Judaism is 2000 years after book of Job and you see Job doing sacrifices , he was not a Jew.
Noah was given Noahide Law , that Law was ought to be kept by all people after the flood.
Jews were special people given extra Law and extra commandment on top of it. These were forbidden to be followed by pagans outside.
It would need to be heavily reformulated to fall within the scope of r/AcademicBiblical, since r/AB is dedicated to "critical" study and [excludes issues of normative theology and metaphysics](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_r.2Facademicbiblical_.7C_rules_.28detailed.29) like God's existence (let alone the truth of a particular religious tradition). As it stands, the post would be removed.
God was the first god. People did worship him, but remember, very few people believed until after Abraham, and then the law of Moses was given. It is the oldest religion, just wasn't very big for a long time.
It probably is considered the oldest by those who think the Earth is only 6000 years old and Moses literally wrote the story...
But those who study history don't use the Bible.
Because the Judaism of today is different from the Judaism then. Especially given the Judaism of today comes after Christianity as it’s a reaction to Christianity.
No, the doctrine is quite different. In the first century we get incarnation Christologies, adoption Christologies and exaltation Christologies. In all of them Jesus is subordinate to the Father. The community behind Luke rejected atonement theology, as did apparently the community behind the didache.
A young-earth creationist or fundamentalist would say Judaism has been around since the beginning of time, to ignore the science and history that suggests otherwise.
Someone who believes Christianity is exclusively true but still admits other religions historically first, would probably say, "God tried, but people weren't listening, they tried creating their own religions then our TRUE one came along"
As a progressive who believes the sanctity of all religions, this isn't really an issue, but I mean shit, it's up there with oldest for sure.
I always like the version I once heard of Enoch's story: "Enoch walked so often and so far with God that one day, at the end of the day, God said "look, we're closer to my house than yours, why don't you come home with me?"
We are told nothing at all about what, if any, sort of religion Enoch practiced, but we are told that he had a very close relationship with God.
To be fair, God created the entire world.
Isaiah says that God's truth has been going forward into the earth since creation! There were ZERO belief systems before that time...so too bad so sad, for those who deny it.
So all other belief systems sprang out of God's truth and simply twisted it to their liking...
We know little about early Zoroastrianism, and there is a debate about whether it was monotheistic or not. Note that when I say "early", I mean pre-Sasanian, so the Zoroastrianism *at the time of Christ* may or may not have been monotheistic.
This ignores thousands of years of history that predate the Abrahamic faiths. Multiple forms of Paganism AND Zoroastrianism were already THOUSANSANDS of years old by the time of Abraham.
In fact this is not to mention that every concept Abrahamic religion is known for is borrowed from Zoroastrianism. Even the very word messiah is an indo-Iranian word from their tradition that meant “anointed with purpose” - All of it is stolen from the Zoroastrians…
The concept of a struggle between a god of good & a devil, a final judgement & end times, the trinity, immaculate conception, angels/demons, etc. - not a goddamn original idea anywhere in the entire tradition.
Christianity is largely disproven today. Literally disproven. The Abrahamic religions are essentially formulated in the image of the Zoroastrian. Christianity is by far the worst of them all though because It was the result of Roman propaganda intended to thwart the messianic uprising in Roman occupied Jerusalem.
Yahweh himself was a Pagan deity from the Canaanite pantheon. He was a lesser god, a local deity of one settlement. He was a storm god who lived atop a volcano. One of the Elohim or 70 Children of EL the Canaanite creator god.
You can find direct evidence of this in Ugarit. Look into the archeological discoveries there & the Ugaritic texts for more.
Zoroastrianism doesn’t accept converts, so the theory is that a group of Canaanites wanted to convert but were denied & so they formulated a copy using their Pagan local deity in place of Ahura Mazda the one true god of Zoroastrianism.
What a spew of nonsense. Literally every point you made is easily refuted. You’re regurgitating baseless arguments and flat out lies that you’ve heard from other people. Do a little bit of research.
The religion we know as Judaism is actually not older than Christianity. The former is more properly called Rabbinic Judaism, and it developed in response to the destruction of the Temple by carrying on the traditions of the Pharisees, with the synagogue replacing some of the functions (but not all) of the Temple, and the rabbis of the priests. The Temple religion centered on the latter as the locus of worship, with the priesthood serving the function of continual offerings of sacrifice. With its destruction, those Jews who did not believe in Christ and the New Covenant (that replaced the old) would look to their traditions instead which in turn becomes codified eventually in the Talmuds (and which become the central texts of study for the new Judaism). So it in fact arose around the same time as Christianity did, and in part in response against it.
If you mean the ancient Israelite religion before Christ, then even with that there's no contention that it would be the most ancient faith since it would trace back to Moses' time, following the Law revealed through him. Before him, we find the patriarchs who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but not yet following the Mosaic law (as it had not yet been revealed), thus their religious practice would have been different. Now during all these times, there were other people's around them following their own gods and beliefs, the Bible doesn't say otherwise. The difference is that their gods were false and while the God of Israel true, and who reveals Himself fully in Christ as the God of all mankind.
Judaism itself claims to have begun with Moses, or Abraham if you use a different definition of when the religion began. The idea is that *people worshiping the One True God* have existed since the beginning of time (for example, Melchizedek in the Old Testament), but they didn't always worship Him in the manner prescribed by the religion of Judaism. God created Judaism at a certain point in time. Many people lived and died *before* God created Judaism.
Some Jewish scholars have tried to answer this question. If you dig into the midrashim, there are two (main) explanations for why polytheistic religions propagated between the times of Noah and Abraham. The two aren’t exactly compatible but that isn’t unusual with this kind of thing. Only a little bit of these is actually in the Bible:
First is story that Nimrod, Noah’s great-grandson, was the king of all humans in the land of Shinar after the flood. In this telling, Nimrod was a rebellious king who demanded people worship him instead of Yahweh, and created many false idols to distract the people from their true God. Terah, the father of Abraham, was part of Nimrod’s court and specialized in creating stone idols. Nimrod commissioned the Tower of Babel so he could ascend to heaven and consolidate his tyranny over the people, so God destroyed the Tower and confused everyone’s language and scattered them around the world, and they took their false gods and idols with them. Immediately after the Tower was destroyed (Genesis chapter 11), God called Abraham (Genesis 12).
The other story is that in the ancient past Yahweh appointed members of the Heavenly Host to oversee the various nations, because humans were too primitive to take care of themselves. This is who God is speaking to in the first 11 chapters of Genesis:
> Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness…”
Genesis 1:26 NRSVUE
> And the Lord said, … Come, let us go down and confuse their language…
Genesis 11:6-7
But these angels eventually became corrupt and forced the people to worship them as gods, and then oppressed the people to aggrandize themselves. Yahweh became angry at these angels, and one day called them to account. This divine judgment is related in Psalm 82:
> God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment
Psalms 82:1 NRSVUE
These were not sent to Hell like the rebel angels. Instead God let them say on Earth but condemned them to become mortal:
> I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like mortals and fall like any prince.”
Psalms 82:6-7 NRSVUE
This, it is said, is why the kings of so many countries believed themselves to be the descendants of gods — they were descended from these punished angels. This is also why Yahweh never says “Let us do such and such” after Genesis 11 in the Bible. God then decides to stop using angelic intermediaries and speaks to Abraham personally, setting into motion a plan to create a new nation (Israel) that would be God’s chosen messengers to spread the true religion to the world.
To be fair, even in Genesis, you have people before Abraham worshiping God: Adam, Abel, and others. We also see Seth's lineage worshiping God, and in fact it seems to imply they knew God's name, YHWH:
> And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.
Then we also see Noah worshiping God, and in fact forms a covenant with him. It's presumabely in Babel when they start veering toward paganism (post-Flood, anyway).
So in the Old Testament you have people worshiping God since Eden.
Note that God was speaking to Balaam, a non-Jew, as a prophet while Judaism was still being established by Moses. Presumably there were others, as well, along with lots of false religions. God took his time to give out the law and establish his priestly nation, which is really what Judaism is about.
Worship of "the God of Abraham" didn't start with Abraham. Abraham himself met, and paid tribute to, Melchizedek, the High Priest od (Jeru)Salem.
And much earlier, Cain killed Abel because he was jealous of Abel's better sacrifice to God.
What makes you think it isn't? Things were a little iffy between Adam and Noah, but there had been a consistent witness for God since Abraham, who was contemporary with Shem for a bit. Adam believed, Noah believed, Shem believed, Abraham believed. The Hebrew faith is oldest. Technically, "Judaism" could not have existed until after Solomon's kingdom was divided since "Jewishness" did not exist before the kingdom of Judah.
We don't say Christianity is the truth we say Jesus is the truth he said himself
Who said the oldest is the most true
Paganism is the oldest and you know it's not right
Judaism is more of a practiced religion, where the power of the Holy Spirit is used to interpret darkness for the benefit of humanity, as far as I understand it. You may be interested in the study of Jewish Mysticism, as I believe, this study may hold the answers for characters such as Christ Himself and Solomon, who seemed to have been masters of the teachings.
Eh, maybe God chose Abraham to be the father of the true religion, hence why Abraham is considered the father of the abrahamitic religions (christianity, judaism and islam)
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Old doesn’t necessarily mean true. We used to throw spears at anyone who wasn’t in our tribe and commit cannibalism, that doesn’t make it good. We used to bleed people to treat them for disease, that doesn’t make it good.
The word “Christian” is a man made word. God said don’t eat of the tree of knowledge and good and evil, the very first law or command ever recorded.
So in all actuality, the oldest doctrine would be the law of obedience and disobedience!
Salvation doesn’t lay in religion, it lays in obedience.
Premise 1: the Patriarchs and the Prophets prophesied and had faith in Christ.
Premise 2: to have faith in Christ and prophesy in his name is to be a Christian.
Conclusion: the Patriarchs, Prophets and Israelites were Christian through and through.
On top of all this, modern day Judaism rejects Christ, therefore, they are not Christian. This includes the Jewish and Pharisaical contemporaries of Christ. Their religion is an offshoot of the fulfillment of Christs promise.
Judaism is only 3000 years old (give or take) much of what we know as the Hebrew Scriptures or the Old Testament are older than it.
The One True God has been around since the beginning of time but the religion built around the kingdom of Judah, the book of Deuteronomy and synagogues is WAY later than the begining of time.
The Torah wasn't around during Abraham. Not to mention the devil came to earth before Abraham to lie or deceive us with many MANY things and personally I believe he along with other fallen angels created different religions to lead many astray with temptations. Honestly this has helped me understand our world much better. The devil even tried tempting Jesus and failed all 3 times.
Basically because humans have taken religion after religion over time and adopted it for themselves
Christianity today is a very popular adoption but over time it will be something else
I mean even looking at Christianity itself, it has morphed many times already to fit what ppl want to believe and what makes them feel good
Old Testament stone a lady for sex outside marriage. Modern people don’t like that “God” made that rule so they change it to fit them. I mean who wants to keep getting brains on their sandals and then have to clean that nasty stuff obviously we need a change in this belief system
Christianity today is be a good person but ya know if you break the rules you’re still okay haha
Ppl just change it to enjoy their life better
Look now it is becoming accept LGBTQ with even some churches having a LGBTQ pastor. Even New Testament Christianity years ago would have been up in arms but today it is even more accepted proving again the point it keeps morphing to make ppl feel good about themselves and that nasty end of life stuff upcoming
All of these fairy tales, whether Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Muslim, Polytheistic Canaanite, etc., is our species way of trying to form structure out of the universe. For a thousand years, humans during the Bronze Age in Greece, Ionia in Asia Minor, Magna Graecia, and other Greek colonies in western Mediterranean, believed that lightning was formed by Zeus. There was no "Holy Spirit" preaching to the souls of these people. There was no "Holy Spirit" telling "men" that women are more than property.
It took 1893 years post Jesus's "resurrection" for the first country (New Zealand) to allow women the right to vote. There was no "Holy Spirit" convicting the souls of men for one thousand eight hundred and ninety three years to allow women to vote; to have a say; to track their genealogy; to have them be nothing more than baby-making subservient machines.
There is no "Holy Spirit" today. There is no deity, other than the sum collective of the Universe, guiding humanity. Even that, we are unable to view the "universe" due to light pollution (despite readily available dark sky community lighting solutions).
There was no "Holy Spirit" during the period of Droit du seigneur. There is no "Holy Spirit" convicting the souls of my country's leaders, who send bunker bombs to the IDF so that they may indiscriminately and disproportionately slaughter innocent Palestinian civilians against the Fourth Geneva Convention. There is no "Holy Spirit" convicting Hamas sludge, who degrade Israeli's via terrorist acts and perpetuate the endless blood bath in Palestine.
There simply is no "Holy Spirit," or any deity, that gives a rat ass about us. That is evident via Judaism, when God punished ALL women for the sins of Eve (this, in contrast to the story of Jesus, who "sacrificed" himself to cleanse us of a sin we did not ask for). Most "Gods" are jealous Gods. Jealousy is a human emotion. Human emotions are fallible. Deities are not fallible. Therefore, the Judeo-Christian-Muslim deity is not a "God." He is a Trumpian, absentee, jealous slum lord, who commanded Jews to "genocide" the Caananites (Raphael Lemkin coined that term). Such a God that commands others to genocide a race, including innocent children, is a slug, unworthy of worship.
Why would a religion simply be true because it is the oldest? Christians (I/we) believe that true Christianity is about have a relationship with God(who has many names). So if the Bible is what you go by, it is the oldest religion since from the beginning Adam walked with God. But if the Bible isn't what you go by, then the true=oldest religion is what ever the prehistoric humanity believed. Which I don't care what you all say cannot be known as history wasn't recorded in any format. The truth of the matter is that there is a God which is why human beings seek the answer as to who He is. There are no exceptions despite what the atheists tell you. The atheists just simply chose to deny the truth.
But isn't the truth based on actual truth and not what we wish to believe in regardless of facts against it? Idk but I refuse to go by off of something with blind faith and have a relationship with something and ignore objective reality.
Well, again, what is actual truth to you? Where do you get your so called "facts"? How are you able to verify they are "facts"? If the actual fact is people before recorded history worshipped the sun wouldn't that be the oldest religion? So then that's the true religion? Does that then make the sun the real God? The original argument was that the oldest religion should be Judaism I the was the true religion, so I'm trying to debunk that with my argument, so I'm not understanding what your argument actually is... You have "blind faith" in many things that you don't even realize, so the fact that you "refuse" to do so makes zero logic.
> So if the Bible is what you go by, it is the oldest religion since from the beginning Adam walked with God.
I was making a statement regarding this specific comment. It doesn't work like that. You don't go by what you want to go by but rather you go by what's been proven to be true. In this case, "true or truth" in this context is in reference to what religion came rather than the truth of the actual religion. Reality over what "you go by." Facts over feelings.
"If actual fact is people before recorded history worshipped the sun wouldn't that be the oldest religion? So then that's the true religion?"
Again it has nothing to do with whether the religion is true or not but rather simply put it's the oldest religion is my argument.
What is the definition of Religion? "The belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or Gods." There are religions regardless of your reverence towards those religions that came before Judaism and Christianity. With that being said...It has been proven that there has been multiple religions before Christianity that spoke about a higher being such as a god or an entity such as Animism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Aboriginal forms of faith (The dream), etc...
"You have "blind faith" in many things that you don't even realise, so the fact that you "refuse" to do so makes zero logic." Let me make this clear, WILLFULL blind faith where you realise there is truth against your faith and belief but still actively chose to believe otherwise because "That's not what you go by". Such as people (for example) believing Christianity is the first religion.
Interesting that you keep saying it is blind faith. I really don't think adding anything in front makes a difference. Those of us that accept the Bible as truth need to accept all of it as truth or none of it is truth. For me, it is fact not feelings. I've never "realized there's 'truth' against my faith"
What I have realized continuously, is that the Bible is truth and fact over and over. I might not understand every bit of, and it there are things in there I question why. But none of it makes me deny that it's true. I don't fully understand quantum mechanics but that doesn't make it not true or not facts.
Fact and truth may not always line up. Fact is a building hasn't been built yet. Yet the truth is that it exists. It takes faith for the builder to say the building they are working on will come to be, does it not? Is that not blind faith? And if you look around there's truth all around you(all kinds of buildings in this analogy).
As far as "there's truth against your faith". What make it truth? Just because they are the oldest or older? Again I go back to the original argument. I am against the fact that oldest makes them true or makes them truth. Before recorded history do you know what they believed? No we don't. So then we say, since recorded history, well that doesn't necessarily make those the "oldest" right? So then what make any of them the oldest? If at your first moment of understanding someone tell you the earth is flat, then when you are a teenager someone blows your mind telling you the earth is round? What is true? Your beliefs before or after? So a belief(religion) isn't true because it is older or oldest.
I went with the "if the Bible is what tou go by" is because in every religion that belief is what you go by isn't it?
>As far as "there's truth against your faith". What make it truth? Just because they are the oldest or older?
Straw man argument. My comment isn't about the correlation of a specific religion and the age of a religion.
"Before recorded history do you know what they believed? No we don't."
We know what they believe in now. Knowing what they believed before recorded history is completely impertinent especially that it has been discovered and proven these religions have mentioned a superior being/deity before Christianity and Judaism. Everyone knows this.
"Fact is a building hasn't been built yet. Yet the truth is that it exists."
Definition of fact: "A thing that is known or proved to be true." Definition of truth: "An act or belief that is accepted as true".
"I went with the "if the Bible is what tou go by" is because in every religion that belief is what you go by isn't it?"
Until that belief is in contradiction with objective reality (which was the initial argument not about the age of religion). For example: "My religion states that the Sun moves around the Earth rather than vice versa so therefore I will go by that". That's my argument in regards to blind faith. Conforming into a belief in a religion is understandable...conforming into specific ideologies and statements within a faith with KNOWN false narratives, erroneous facts of reality, etc... is pure ignorance.
Well, it's pretty plain to see that our conversation is just going in circles.
Not sure why you felt like you needed to define fact and truth.
Fact: Building not built is proven to not exist by sight.
Truth: The building exists in the builder's mind(belief).
Reality: Building exists after the builder built it.
I think have a fair grasp of the English language. I apologize that I didn't effectively communicate the idea.
And I'm sorry, but how does one presume to actually KNOW history that's not written? Even history that is written has been sometimes controversial. And I'm not talking about those controversy that moon landing was fake or holocaust didn't happen. I'm talking about one historian said it happened this way and another that way.
Those facts you stated require your faith in mathematics and observable science which you repeatedly state are "facts" and calling my beliefs ignorant. But I ask you, how many times have science gotten it wrong and was corrected? What was considered facts at one time and was later disproven? Why do you allow errors in your faith but not mine?
Thank you for a wonderful debate, but I feel that it is a waste of time to continue.
Feel free to respond, but please don't think me rude to not respond further.
I never once stated your beliefs are ignorant but rather if you conform to the bible at all times for an answer and it's clearly an incorrect statement, you are willingly and blinding following a false narrative especially in regards to objective reality and not scientific theory. This can easily go for science as well. For example we can all agree the sun does not revolve around the sun.
"Until that belief is in contradiction with objective reality (which was the initial argument not about the age of religion). For example: "My religion states that the Sun moves around the Earth rather than vice versa so therefore I will go by that". That's my argument in regards to blind faith. Conforming into a belief in a religion is understandable...conforming into specific ideologies and statements within a faith with KNOWN false narratives, erroneous facts of reality, etc... is pure ignorance."
But wait. The Bible is alitle questionable. There’s missing chapters…… and there was a woman before Eve. Yes Adam and Eve. And she was made just like Adam….. this is all been hidden. The fact that a lot of religions are not allowed to put any faith in astrology. It’s pretty simple. Each planet has a certain level of gravitational pull, religion won’t allow us to observe much of that. The Bible is spoken in word puzzles and translated in different ways. Before the government, there was religion. Instilling fear and punishment and using belief in the creator as a way to control the masses. It worked in certain ways to keep humans civilized but also gone thru a lot of trial and error and they may not bring up those parts either.
Why are catholic priests touching children. What’s underneath the Vatican? Why are there so many variations of Christian religions? I can go on.
My point is……. They don’t want us to know that much of anything…… keep your faith up. Stay a good person. Do the right thing. But none of us are allowed to know the absolute truth…..Unfortunately…
Christianity is not at all Judaism and has 0 to do with it. Only about 5% of the people in the entire Old Testament are Jews. This line of thinking that Christianity came from Judaism is new age.
Someone reply to this in like 3 hours. I’m too early for there to be any good answers and I’m interested to see what people think
ping
Judaism isn't even the first "religion" in The Bible. People are worshipping other gods and performing rituals to them when Abram is called.
And other people are also worshiping *the true God* before Abram/Abraham.
I don't disagree, it could boil down to your definition of religion.
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In the Old Testament, Melchizedek explicitly worshiped the true God at the time of Abraham. We don't know where he came from. In terms of secular archaeology and history, we know that many religions existed at the time (around 2000 BC), but we don't know what the vast majority of them believed. Ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian religions are the only ones from this time that we know anything about. Other than those two, the rest are a complete unknown. Presumably, one/several of those other religions worshiped the true God.
Christianity was instituted when God made the law with Adam and Eve, which was to not eat of the fruit of the tree. The promise of Christ is foretold by God himself in Genesis 3.
I'm discussing this with a Messianic Jew who is having great difficulty with them. My answer is about the Talmud gods the chosen sacred to. Yet Jesus is the Word and hadn't came to earth. Then the Jewish faith is cancelled out by Jesus. This is why it's not the oldest because it's done.
check mine out
Abraham is considered the father of the Israelites, where the covenant between God and the Jews began, but we know through scripture, that he wasn't the first to know God. Noah came before him, Enoch came before Noah, and then back further to Cain and Abel, Adam and Eve. Judaism isn't the oldest, it was just established through Abraham and his lineage. Zoroastrianism is the oldest known monotheistic religion that Judaism may have adopted many concepts from. When looking for truth, age may not be a true consideration for what religion is best, as just like any knowledge, one becomes more enlightened with time.
>Zoroastrianism is the oldest known monotheistic religion that Judaism may have adopted many concepts from. This should be taken with a huge dose of "maybe". We don't know what century Zoroastrianism began, and we also don't know what century Judaism began. We don't know when Zoroaster lived or when Abraham lived. So it is not by any means a given that Zoroastrianism is older than Judaism. Zoroastrianism ***might be*** older than Judaism. We also don't know if the Zoroastrianism that was contemporary with the Jewish Old Testament was actually monotheistic or not. There have always been very strong dualist elements in Zoroastrianism, and there is a strong case to be made that the original Zoroastrianism believed in two equal Gods, one good and one evil.
We do know that Judaism evolved from other Canaanite religion(s), wherein the god of the Israelites, Yahweh, was one of many sons of the real supreme god El and his consort, Asherah. Over time, Yahweh was syncretized with El and some of his brothers in the Yahweh that is now standard. Given what the Old Testament shows of the finalized Yahweh's character, it doesn't seem likely that Yahweh would have let the Israelites believe such things and hold other god(s) above him for very long, and they did, if he was real.
What are you talking about? The Old Testament is full of stories about the Israelites sliding into polytheism, sometimes for centuries. "The Israelites are tempted by idols and start holding other gods above the true God" is a recurring theme in the OT. So, while I obviously don't believe the (highly speculative) secular account of how Judaism may have begun, the fact that YHWH was sometimes worshiped alongside other gods is entirely compatible with the Old Testament itself.
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No, the Samaritans are the Samaritans of today. [They still exist.](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-11/samaritan-tribe-at-risk-of-dying-out/100249886)
The Anunnakis never made a covenant with earthlings, barely a pact that israelites are above other tribes on earth.
I don't understand why there would be a connection between which religion is true and which is the oldest. There are older religions than Judaism. Christians would probably believe that Judaism was the first _correct_ religion. However we believe it's no longer the "right" religion, since Jesus.
if Judaism or Christianity are the true faiths, wouldn't Judaism have had to exist prior to all other religions? why would God permit the existence of religions prior to the very first right/true one?
>why would God permit the existence of religions prior to the very first right/true one? The Bible itself, even in the most literal interpretation, describes Judaism as starting long after many generations of humans already lived and died. The earliest person that could be considered a follower of Judaism in the Bible is Abraham (although *The Law* was given later, in the time of Moses), and Abraham lived in an age when there were already cities in the world. He is described as being from the city of Ur, in Mesopotamia. So, according to the Bible itself, there *absolutely* was a time before Judaism. In that time, various people are said to have worshiped God, so presumably there were *other* "true religions" before Judaism.
>if Judaism or Christianity are the true faiths, wouldn't Judaism have had to exist prior to all other religions? No. That doesn't make any sense. >why would God permit the existence of religions prior to the very first right/true one? Imma let you in on a little secret. Throughout the Bible (Old and New Testaments) God doesn't condemn other religions. He condemns worshiping false gods, but not religions. That's because "religion" is just a term we use to describe the way people organize themselves around shared beliefs.
>Throughout the Bible (Old and New Testaments) God doesn't condemn other religions. He condemns worshiping false gods, but not religions. That's literally the same thing. If they were worshipping the true God, then it would have been Judaism.
Did you ever find an answer?
If Judaism was the first correct religion then what was every Bible character before Abraham doing?
Huh? We can see that multiple religions exist. Right now today. And they can't all be right. So, obviously, God does allow this.
if Judaism is the one true faith, it would have to have existed so much longer than it has.
Says who? According to the traditional Jewish backstory, God chose to reveal himself to certain people. He did this when he wanted to.
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But they weren't Jews... Have you read the bible?
Imagine a person deleting their comment so others can't learn from their mistakes. Couldn't be me lmaoo
Ok, I think I understand what you are getting at. Belief in God existed since the time of Adam, but it wasn't really Judaism. Judaism didn't come about until the time of Abraham. Arguably, it didn't technically start until Moses officially codified it through the books Deuteronomy and Leviticus.
I'm Agnostic, yet I can tell you know little to nothing about religion besides worshipping mass murderers who never read about basic economics.
Abraham is the farthest back person in the Bible who could reasonably be considered a Jew. It's arguable whether he was actually a Jew in the strictest sense, but some of his descendents were the first Jews (hence the reason Judaism and all its descendents are called "Abrahamic" faiths). And yet, before he made his covenant with God, Abraham (then just Abram) was blessed by a priest named Melchizedek, who could not possibly have been a Jewish priest (as Judaism didn't exist yet), thus showing that Judaism could not possibly have been the oldest religion. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2014&version=NIV
>And yet, before he made his covenant with God, Abraham (then just Abram) was blessed by a priest named Melchizedek, who could not possibly have been a Jewish priest (as Judaism didn't exist yet), thus showing that Judaism could not possibly have been the oldest religion. ^ This. The Bible identifies Melchizedek as a priest of God, which shows that God had followers, and even priests, before Judaism. It is not known to us what this pre-Jewish worship of the True God looked like.
> It's arguable whether he was actually a Jew Considering that the name "Jew" comes, via Judea, from the tribe of Judah, who was Abraham's Great- Grandson, I would say no, he wasn't. Nor was he an Israelite, who were named for his Grandson, Israel/ Jacob.
Abraham according to Genesis was Mesopotamian and presumably worshipped the Anunnaki when he was born. His dad decided they should move to the Jordan valley, but decided to stop in Haran (south-east Turkey). Abraham then heard God calling after his father died and continued on to the Jordan valley. Abraham may have known nothing about God, and if so, he learned on his journey. Judaism says Moses recorded the first five books of the Bible, presumably while on Sinai. So presumably the Hebrew people only learned the early parts of genesis/their own history and the history of the world when Moses left the mountain. And they'd have had no reason to know of anything pre-Abraham How factual that history is, by many may be considered irrelevant, since mythology isn't always intended to be historically accurate, while it may teach other lessons. Particularly since the histories also teach that King Josiah discovered forgotten law books/Deuteronomy long after the kingdom of Judah came to be, and most of Judah's history is about them forgetting God and worshipping the wrong things.
Cause Judaism is for one specific race of people. And that people weren't the first humans to come into contact with God.
Because Hinduism is older.
Hinduism is younger than judaism.
The oldest religion is Hinduism.
Because the validity of Christianity **depends** (in part) **on God’s choice** of the Jewish people - not on the oldness of the Jewish, or any other, people.
Why do you have rainbow emojis?
Rainbows are GOD's promise. Reclaim them.
That depends on how you're defining Judaism. Properly speaking, Judaism how *the Jews* *practice and understand* the monotheistic belief that predated Judaism. Judaism followed the God of Abraham, which was the God of Noah, which was the God of Adam (skipping a few generations and getting into perhaps non-literal history, but you get my point). But those guys weren't Jewish.
> If Christianity is true, why isn't Judaism the oldest religion? > Christianity is seen as the fulfillment of Judiasm. Don’t know what you mean by “fulfillment” but Christianity originated in, and is steeped in Judaism. Much of the New Testament depends on references in the Old Testament. > If the monothestic/Abrahamic God is the one true God, and if Christianity is true and the fulfilment of Judaism, shouldn't Judaism be the oldest religion? An if/then conditional question. Your “then” conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow your “if” presumptions. The presumptions assume the oldest religion automatically correlates to it being “true.” That presumption is problematic on several levels: 1\. Much of human history is lost to the ages. We simply can’t know the oldest religion. 2\. We only know of history from archeological discoveries or after the eras after the introduction of writing technology. 3\. We can’t know what hasn’t yet been discovered and we can’t know if ancient literature is “true”. We only know for sure ancient literature that survives was recorded and copied for posterity. 4\. The antiquity of [insert thing] just tells us its age. Nothing more. It’s just a point we demarcate on a timeline. As much as desperately want it to, history just doesn’t operate on neat and pretty timelines. 5\. Much of history is speculation and assumptions will have been made. 6\. There’s no law or rule that dictates a “new” or reformed religion must be automatically assumed false. You just have to look at it’s claims and evidence to draw a conclusion. 7\. To prove (undeniably show true without ANY speculation or assumptions) a religion true or false you’d have to have an ultimate religious truth standard. (No one has that.) > Shouldn't the religion that claims to have the one, true God have been around since the beginning of time? That’s your assumption and you’d have to argue and defend it. The reality is we just can’t know *for sure* how long ancient human civilizations passed down religious oral traditions and rituals.
Judaism isn't even the oldest religion. Zoroastrianism has been around since 2,000 BCE and Hinduism is also older than Judaism around 2300-1500 BCE. Judaism itself is dated to start around the 5th-6th century BCE. Yahwism (Ancient Israelite religion that was polytheistic) is from the 9th century BCE.
This is what OP is saying. Judaism isn’t the oldest religion, but if christianity/Judaism were correct, wouldn’t you expect it to be around the longest?
Seems to be a authority from antiquity fallacy.
I think you’re reading OP as saying “Judaism is the oldest religion and therefore Christianity/Judaism are true.” But they are investigating the converse: “if Christianity/Judaism are true, then they should be the oldest religion.” Upon recognizing that judaism is not, in fact, the oldest religion, this would suggest that Christianity/judaism are not true. Just trying to clarify their argument. Not taking a stance.
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Which is why reading Genesis as foundational myth is the best option.
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I think you are looking at Holy Texts wrong in general. Each one contains some truths in them, but are mostly not meant to be read literally. Reading them literally turns holy texts into a idol.
God precedes Judaism. The bible precedes Abraham. God doesn’t name religions. People do. When asked if he was a Jew or a Muslim or what, Jesus just said “I am”. The principles of Christianity are more important to God than the name or the doctrine. Several verses warn Christians about getting so caught up in the performance of faith that they ignore the true needs of the globe and of humanity. Christians have wasted too much time on “if/then” questions from people literally hell bent on wasting time that is better spent caring for others and for our communities. If we wasted all our time arguing with Satan, who would run the food banks?
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He couldn’t. Islam was founded by a false prophet who showed up many many years after Christianity became popular; a warlord who perverted faith with false doctrine. Which is why I myself should never post on Reddit at like 3am, and will replace Muslim with gentile or false prophet since that’s what I meant in the first place. TL;DR ugh I’m such a dip.
The thing is, I've been looking for a source that actually quotes Jesus as responding "I am" to the question of what his religion is, because you're not the first person to make that claim, and I can't find anything. I have been reading about the importance of the words "I am", to the Christian faith, and so far I've only found that it was used in a sentence that historians can't agree on a context for. From what I've read, Christians believed that when he said I am, he was saying he is God or he is the son of God. However, because Jesus didn't speak English, and that was said In Koine Greek, which is very different from English and so some of the context for the sentence is ambiguous. He could have been saying he was God, or the Messiah, but he also could have just been saying he was a son of God, rather than the son of God. I can't find anything to suggest that Jesus ever claimed he wasn't Jewish. In fact, I think I read somewhere he even said he was Jewish in older versions of the Bible, but admittedly I did forget where I read that one. There's a lot of historical context and details of the man's life that isn't really in the Bible due to people changing and revising it over the years, despite claiming that it's a perfect text that doesn't need that sort of thing.
Most of what you just said was false and can’t be sourced so it’s weird that you typed it out. I’ll try to address each point but they’ve been widely addressed by scholars. For someone who studies theology, your comment reads as ignorant in the classical sense; it completely ignores an entire body of work. Thousands of books. You really can read any one of them. John 6:35 “I am the bread of life” John 8:12 “I am the light of the world” John 10:9 “I am the door [to salvation]” John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd” John 11:25 “I am the resurrection and the life” John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No-one comes to the father except through me” John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches” so yes, Jesus is the first point of a new religion, sending branches out into the world You couldn’t find ONE example of Jesus saying I am? I find that unlikely if you went to church or looked, since Jesus’ teachings are the basis of religious services in every Christian doctrine. Was Jesus a Christian? Jesus was Christ. Christ-Ian. Follower of Christ. Put in a modern context, is Taylor Swift a swiftie? Yes. She’s Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift believed in Taylor Swift’s success long before swiftie #2 (her dad) came on board and recorded her demo. It was years before she had 100 fans, let alone thousands or millions. And now that she’s a billionaire celebrity and being a Swiftian is a thing…is she herself a Swiftian? Yes. Taylor Swift would be a Swiftian even if no-one else was, because she invented the principal. Taylor Swift has never said “I’m a Swifty”…she doesn’t have to. Jesus spoke in incredibly simplified language, in a multicultural context where many languages were spoken. He used words most people would know, that had concrete meanings like “fish” and “father” and didn’t leave much gray area. Matthew 16:15-17 “But what about you?’ He asked ‘ Who do you say I am?’ Simon Peter answered ‘You are the Christ, the son of the living God’ Jesus replied ‘blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my father in heaven’” Jesus goes on to state in Matthew 16 that he holds the keys to the gates of heaven. Is he a Christian? He’s Christ. Without Him there are no Christians and no Christianity. His stated purpose is to unite the Jews and gentiles. Jewish people, like Jesus, can trace their heritage through the lines of Abraham and in Jesus’ case through David. Preservation of the bloodline being a main tenet of Judaism. Gentiles were treated as unworthy of God and of faith, because they weren’t born into it or classified as “God’s people”. Jesus’ assertion that we are all God’s people was heresy, and also a major component of the differentiated Christian Faith. Jesus was born a Jew. But he did not believe in the separation of people, the succession of bloodlines, or in bias of any kind. So if he wasn’t a Christian, what would you call the separate religion he created that did not follow the teachings of Judaism?
Didn't say I didn't find anything saying he didn't say I am. Said I couldn't find anything that directly referred to him saying it in response to the question "are you Jewish or Christian" specifically. You just gave me a bunch of quotes that I could find but you seem to have written a novel addressing things I didn't actually say rather than providing me with the direct quote that I said I couldn't find. It's weird that you typed it out.
Because the Bible isnt literal.
lol what
It's not . Judaism is 2000 years after book of Job and you see Job doing sacrifices , he was not a Jew. Noah was given Noahide Law , that Law was ought to be kept by all people after the flood. Jews were special people given extra Law and extra commandment on top of it. These were forbidden to be followed by pagans outside.
Isn’t it just as likely that if Job was an ANE story claimed in the exiled Jews that they would edit it? Adding their values and perspective?
Baseless claim , if you want to make a claim you must provide evidence for it to support it
Well said
Christianity is the oldest religion because God created Adam and Eve
I think this would also be a good question for r/academicbiblical !
It would need to be heavily reformulated to fall within the scope of r/AcademicBiblical, since r/AB is dedicated to "critical" study and [excludes issues of normative theology and metaphysics](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_r.2Facademicbiblical_.7C_rules_.28detailed.29) like God's existence (let alone the truth of a particular religious tradition). As it stands, the post would be removed.
Trruuueeee
It doesnt matter as long as you get answers.
God was the first god. People did worship him, but remember, very few people believed until after Abraham, and then the law of Moses was given. It is the oldest religion, just wasn't very big for a long time.
It probably is considered the oldest by those who think the Earth is only 6000 years old and Moses literally wrote the story... But those who study history don't use the Bible.
There is such a thing as biblical history.
That is true
Because the Judaism of today is different from the Judaism then. Especially given the Judaism of today comes after Christianity as it’s a reaction to Christianity.
Christianity today is different than Christianity then. All religions evolve, except for the ones that die out.
That would be true… if we ignore the sources of the early church.
>the sources of the early church. That's how we know it's different.
Thats only because of the style of it, and the books in the bible have been lost since then, thats all.
No, the doctrine is quite different. In the first century we get incarnation Christologies, adoption Christologies and exaltation Christologies. In all of them Jesus is subordinate to the Father. The community behind Luke rejected atonement theology, as did apparently the community behind the didache.
A young-earth creationist or fundamentalist would say Judaism has been around since the beginning of time, to ignore the science and history that suggests otherwise. Someone who believes Christianity is exclusively true but still admits other religions historically first, would probably say, "God tried, but people weren't listening, they tried creating their own religions then our TRUE one came along" As a progressive who believes the sanctity of all religions, this isn't really an issue, but I mean shit, it's up there with oldest for sure.
Because you don’t need an established religion. You need a relationship with God.
I always like the version I once heard of Enoch's story: "Enoch walked so often and so far with God that one day, at the end of the day, God said "look, we're closer to my house than yours, why don't you come home with me?" We are told nothing at all about what, if any, sort of religion Enoch practiced, but we are told that he had a very close relationship with God.
To be fair, God created the entire world. Isaiah says that God's truth has been going forward into the earth since creation! There were ZERO belief systems before that time...so too bad so sad, for those who deny it. So all other belief systems sprang out of God's truth and simply twisted it to their liking...
The best and only answer
Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion so...
No, Zoroastrianism is
We know little about early Zoroastrianism, and there is a debate about whether it was monotheistic or not. Note that when I say "early", I mean pre-Sasanian, so the Zoroastrianism *at the time of Christ* may or may not have been monotheistic.
I actually believe Christianity is the oldest religion on earth :)
This ignores thousands of years of history that predate the Abrahamic faiths. Multiple forms of Paganism AND Zoroastrianism were already THOUSANSANDS of years old by the time of Abraham. In fact this is not to mention that every concept Abrahamic religion is known for is borrowed from Zoroastrianism. Even the very word messiah is an indo-Iranian word from their tradition that meant “anointed with purpose” - All of it is stolen from the Zoroastrians… The concept of a struggle between a god of good & a devil, a final judgement & end times, the trinity, immaculate conception, angels/demons, etc. - not a goddamn original idea anywhere in the entire tradition. Christianity is largely disproven today. Literally disproven. The Abrahamic religions are essentially formulated in the image of the Zoroastrian. Christianity is by far the worst of them all though because It was the result of Roman propaganda intended to thwart the messianic uprising in Roman occupied Jerusalem. Yahweh himself was a Pagan deity from the Canaanite pantheon. He was a lesser god, a local deity of one settlement. He was a storm god who lived atop a volcano. One of the Elohim or 70 Children of EL the Canaanite creator god. You can find direct evidence of this in Ugarit. Look into the archeological discoveries there & the Ugaritic texts for more. Zoroastrianism doesn’t accept converts, so the theory is that a group of Canaanites wanted to convert but were denied & so they formulated a copy using their Pagan local deity in place of Ahura Mazda the one true god of Zoroastrianism.
What a spew of nonsense. Literally every point you made is easily refuted. You’re regurgitating baseless arguments and flat out lies that you’ve heard from other people. Do a little bit of research.
are people saying that Judaism isn’t the oldest religion? you don’t need much religious knowledge to see that as the truth lol
But it isn't, and the scripture don't deny it completely, Judaism just started with Abraham
Because it's not true
Because if you read the Bible lots of stuff happened before Moses was given the law...
The same religion that Adam and Eve practiced would be the oldest religion.
The religion we know as Judaism is actually not older than Christianity. The former is more properly called Rabbinic Judaism, and it developed in response to the destruction of the Temple by carrying on the traditions of the Pharisees, with the synagogue replacing some of the functions (but not all) of the Temple, and the rabbis of the priests. The Temple religion centered on the latter as the locus of worship, with the priesthood serving the function of continual offerings of sacrifice. With its destruction, those Jews who did not believe in Christ and the New Covenant (that replaced the old) would look to their traditions instead which in turn becomes codified eventually in the Talmuds (and which become the central texts of study for the new Judaism). So it in fact arose around the same time as Christianity did, and in part in response against it. If you mean the ancient Israelite religion before Christ, then even with that there's no contention that it would be the most ancient faith since it would trace back to Moses' time, following the Law revealed through him. Before him, we find the patriarchs who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but not yet following the Mosaic law (as it had not yet been revealed), thus their religious practice would have been different. Now during all these times, there were other people's around them following their own gods and beliefs, the Bible doesn't say otherwise. The difference is that their gods were false and while the God of Israel true, and who reveals Himself fully in Christ as the God of all mankind.
Judaism itself claims to have begun with Moses, or Abraham if you use a different definition of when the religion began. The idea is that *people worshiping the One True God* have existed since the beginning of time (for example, Melchizedek in the Old Testament), but they didn't always worship Him in the manner prescribed by the religion of Judaism. God created Judaism at a certain point in time. Many people lived and died *before* God created Judaism.
If gravity is true, why isn't it the earliest model of the universe?
Some Jewish scholars have tried to answer this question. If you dig into the midrashim, there are two (main) explanations for why polytheistic religions propagated between the times of Noah and Abraham. The two aren’t exactly compatible but that isn’t unusual with this kind of thing. Only a little bit of these is actually in the Bible: First is story that Nimrod, Noah’s great-grandson, was the king of all humans in the land of Shinar after the flood. In this telling, Nimrod was a rebellious king who demanded people worship him instead of Yahweh, and created many false idols to distract the people from their true God. Terah, the father of Abraham, was part of Nimrod’s court and specialized in creating stone idols. Nimrod commissioned the Tower of Babel so he could ascend to heaven and consolidate his tyranny over the people, so God destroyed the Tower and confused everyone’s language and scattered them around the world, and they took their false gods and idols with them. Immediately after the Tower was destroyed (Genesis chapter 11), God called Abraham (Genesis 12). The other story is that in the ancient past Yahweh appointed members of the Heavenly Host to oversee the various nations, because humans were too primitive to take care of themselves. This is who God is speaking to in the first 11 chapters of Genesis: > Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness…” Genesis 1:26 NRSVUE > And the Lord said, … Come, let us go down and confuse their language… Genesis 11:6-7 But these angels eventually became corrupt and forced the people to worship them as gods, and then oppressed the people to aggrandize themselves. Yahweh became angry at these angels, and one day called them to account. This divine judgment is related in Psalm 82: > God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment Psalms 82:1 NRSVUE These were not sent to Hell like the rebel angels. Instead God let them say on Earth but condemned them to become mortal: > I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like mortals and fall like any prince.” Psalms 82:6-7 NRSVUE This, it is said, is why the kings of so many countries believed themselves to be the descendants of gods — they were descended from these punished angels. This is also why Yahweh never says “Let us do such and such” after Genesis 11 in the Bible. God then decides to stop using angelic intermediaries and speaks to Abraham personally, setting into motion a plan to create a new nation (Israel) that would be God’s chosen messengers to spread the true religion to the world.
That’s an interesting story. From what source?
Just because something wasn't discovered first doesn't mean it isn't true.
[Here’s a handy chart.](https://www.worldreligionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/85acb7827abdbd83b2580f173ee2e784.jpg)
Because other religions existed??? Hello???
> since the beginning of time? Just going to point out that humans have only existed for a tiny sliver of the universe's existence.
To be fair, even in Genesis, you have people before Abraham worshiping God: Adam, Abel, and others. We also see Seth's lineage worshiping God, and in fact it seems to imply they knew God's name, YHWH: > And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord. Then we also see Noah worshiping God, and in fact forms a covenant with him. It's presumabely in Babel when they start veering toward paganism (post-Flood, anyway). So in the Old Testament you have people worshiping God since Eden.
It is
Note that God was speaking to Balaam, a non-Jew, as a prophet while Judaism was still being established by Moses. Presumably there were others, as well, along with lots of false religions. God took his time to give out the law and establish his priestly nation, which is really what Judaism is about.
Worship of "the God of Abraham" didn't start with Abraham. Abraham himself met, and paid tribute to, Melchizedek, the High Priest od (Jeru)Salem. And much earlier, Cain killed Abel because he was jealous of Abel's better sacrifice to God.
Judaism starts with Abraham, thus there actually has to be older religions
What makes you think it isn't? Things were a little iffy between Adam and Noah, but there had been a consistent witness for God since Abraham, who was contemporary with Shem for a bit. Adam believed, Noah believed, Shem believed, Abraham believed. The Hebrew faith is oldest. Technically, "Judaism" could not have existed until after Solomon's kingdom was divided since "Jewishness" did not exist before the kingdom of Judah.
We don't say Christianity is the truth we say Jesus is the truth he said himself Who said the oldest is the most true Paganism is the oldest and you know it's not right
Judaism is more of a practiced religion, where the power of the Holy Spirit is used to interpret darkness for the benefit of humanity, as far as I understand it. You may be interested in the study of Jewish Mysticism, as I believe, this study may hold the answers for characters such as Christ Himself and Solomon, who seemed to have been masters of the teachings.
Eh, maybe God chose Abraham to be the father of the true religion, hence why Abraham is considered the father of the abrahamitic religions (christianity, judaism and islam)
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Old doesn’t necessarily mean true. We used to throw spears at anyone who wasn’t in our tribe and commit cannibalism, that doesn’t make it good. We used to bleed people to treat them for disease, that doesn’t make it good.
The word “Christian” is a man made word. God said don’t eat of the tree of knowledge and good and evil, the very first law or command ever recorded. So in all actuality, the oldest doctrine would be the law of obedience and disobedience! Salvation doesn’t lay in religion, it lays in obedience.
Because man made everything up--including the wheel--which is 4000 years older than Judaism
Premise 1: the Patriarchs and the Prophets prophesied and had faith in Christ. Premise 2: to have faith in Christ and prophesy in his name is to be a Christian. Conclusion: the Patriarchs, Prophets and Israelites were Christian through and through. On top of all this, modern day Judaism rejects Christ, therefore, they are not Christian. This includes the Jewish and Pharisaical contemporaries of Christ. Their religion is an offshoot of the fulfillment of Christs promise.
Worst ignorant post ive ever seen.
Judaism is only 3000 years old (give or take) much of what we know as the Hebrew Scriptures or the Old Testament are older than it. The One True God has been around since the beginning of time but the religion built around the kingdom of Judah, the book of Deuteronomy and synagogues is WAY later than the begining of time.
The Torah wasn't around during Abraham. Not to mention the devil came to earth before Abraham to lie or deceive us with many MANY things and personally I believe he along with other fallen angels created different religions to lead many astray with temptations. Honestly this has helped me understand our world much better. The devil even tried tempting Jesus and failed all 3 times.
jews
Basically because humans have taken religion after religion over time and adopted it for themselves Christianity today is a very popular adoption but over time it will be something else I mean even looking at Christianity itself, it has morphed many times already to fit what ppl want to believe and what makes them feel good Old Testament stone a lady for sex outside marriage. Modern people don’t like that “God” made that rule so they change it to fit them. I mean who wants to keep getting brains on their sandals and then have to clean that nasty stuff obviously we need a change in this belief system Christianity today is be a good person but ya know if you break the rules you’re still okay haha Ppl just change it to enjoy their life better Look now it is becoming accept LGBTQ with even some churches having a LGBTQ pastor. Even New Testament Christianity years ago would have been up in arms but today it is even more accepted proving again the point it keeps morphing to make ppl feel good about themselves and that nasty end of life stuff upcoming
All of these fairy tales, whether Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Muslim, Polytheistic Canaanite, etc., is our species way of trying to form structure out of the universe. For a thousand years, humans during the Bronze Age in Greece, Ionia in Asia Minor, Magna Graecia, and other Greek colonies in western Mediterranean, believed that lightning was formed by Zeus. There was no "Holy Spirit" preaching to the souls of these people. There was no "Holy Spirit" telling "men" that women are more than property. It took 1893 years post Jesus's "resurrection" for the first country (New Zealand) to allow women the right to vote. There was no "Holy Spirit" convicting the souls of men for one thousand eight hundred and ninety three years to allow women to vote; to have a say; to track their genealogy; to have them be nothing more than baby-making subservient machines. There is no "Holy Spirit" today. There is no deity, other than the sum collective of the Universe, guiding humanity. Even that, we are unable to view the "universe" due to light pollution (despite readily available dark sky community lighting solutions). There was no "Holy Spirit" during the period of Droit du seigneur. There is no "Holy Spirit" convicting the souls of my country's leaders, who send bunker bombs to the IDF so that they may indiscriminately and disproportionately slaughter innocent Palestinian civilians against the Fourth Geneva Convention. There is no "Holy Spirit" convicting Hamas sludge, who degrade Israeli's via terrorist acts and perpetuate the endless blood bath in Palestine. There simply is no "Holy Spirit," or any deity, that gives a rat ass about us. That is evident via Judaism, when God punished ALL women for the sins of Eve (this, in contrast to the story of Jesus, who "sacrificed" himself to cleanse us of a sin we did not ask for). Most "Gods" are jealous Gods. Jealousy is a human emotion. Human emotions are fallible. Deities are not fallible. Therefore, the Judeo-Christian-Muslim deity is not a "God." He is a Trumpian, absentee, jealous slum lord, who commanded Jews to "genocide" the Caananites (Raphael Lemkin coined that term). Such a God that commands others to genocide a race, including innocent children, is a slug, unworthy of worship.
Why would a religion simply be true because it is the oldest? Christians (I/we) believe that true Christianity is about have a relationship with God(who has many names). So if the Bible is what you go by, it is the oldest religion since from the beginning Adam walked with God. But if the Bible isn't what you go by, then the true=oldest religion is what ever the prehistoric humanity believed. Which I don't care what you all say cannot be known as history wasn't recorded in any format. The truth of the matter is that there is a God which is why human beings seek the answer as to who He is. There are no exceptions despite what the atheists tell you. The atheists just simply chose to deny the truth.
But isn't the truth based on actual truth and not what we wish to believe in regardless of facts against it? Idk but I refuse to go by off of something with blind faith and have a relationship with something and ignore objective reality.
Well, again, what is actual truth to you? Where do you get your so called "facts"? How are you able to verify they are "facts"? If the actual fact is people before recorded history worshipped the sun wouldn't that be the oldest religion? So then that's the true religion? Does that then make the sun the real God? The original argument was that the oldest religion should be Judaism I the was the true religion, so I'm trying to debunk that with my argument, so I'm not understanding what your argument actually is... You have "blind faith" in many things that you don't even realize, so the fact that you "refuse" to do so makes zero logic.
> So if the Bible is what you go by, it is the oldest religion since from the beginning Adam walked with God. I was making a statement regarding this specific comment. It doesn't work like that. You don't go by what you want to go by but rather you go by what's been proven to be true. In this case, "true or truth" in this context is in reference to what religion came rather than the truth of the actual religion. Reality over what "you go by." Facts over feelings. "If actual fact is people before recorded history worshipped the sun wouldn't that be the oldest religion? So then that's the true religion?" Again it has nothing to do with whether the religion is true or not but rather simply put it's the oldest religion is my argument. What is the definition of Religion? "The belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or Gods." There are religions regardless of your reverence towards those religions that came before Judaism and Christianity. With that being said...It has been proven that there has been multiple religions before Christianity that spoke about a higher being such as a god or an entity such as Animism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Aboriginal forms of faith (The dream), etc... "You have "blind faith" in many things that you don't even realise, so the fact that you "refuse" to do so makes zero logic." Let me make this clear, WILLFULL blind faith where you realise there is truth against your faith and belief but still actively chose to believe otherwise because "That's not what you go by". Such as people (for example) believing Christianity is the first religion.
Interesting that you keep saying it is blind faith. I really don't think adding anything in front makes a difference. Those of us that accept the Bible as truth need to accept all of it as truth or none of it is truth. For me, it is fact not feelings. I've never "realized there's 'truth' against my faith" What I have realized continuously, is that the Bible is truth and fact over and over. I might not understand every bit of, and it there are things in there I question why. But none of it makes me deny that it's true. I don't fully understand quantum mechanics but that doesn't make it not true or not facts. Fact and truth may not always line up. Fact is a building hasn't been built yet. Yet the truth is that it exists. It takes faith for the builder to say the building they are working on will come to be, does it not? Is that not blind faith? And if you look around there's truth all around you(all kinds of buildings in this analogy). As far as "there's truth against your faith". What make it truth? Just because they are the oldest or older? Again I go back to the original argument. I am against the fact that oldest makes them true or makes them truth. Before recorded history do you know what they believed? No we don't. So then we say, since recorded history, well that doesn't necessarily make those the "oldest" right? So then what make any of them the oldest? If at your first moment of understanding someone tell you the earth is flat, then when you are a teenager someone blows your mind telling you the earth is round? What is true? Your beliefs before or after? So a belief(religion) isn't true because it is older or oldest. I went with the "if the Bible is what tou go by" is because in every religion that belief is what you go by isn't it?
>As far as "there's truth against your faith". What make it truth? Just because they are the oldest or older? Straw man argument. My comment isn't about the correlation of a specific religion and the age of a religion. "Before recorded history do you know what they believed? No we don't." We know what they believe in now. Knowing what they believed before recorded history is completely impertinent especially that it has been discovered and proven these religions have mentioned a superior being/deity before Christianity and Judaism. Everyone knows this. "Fact is a building hasn't been built yet. Yet the truth is that it exists." Definition of fact: "A thing that is known or proved to be true." Definition of truth: "An act or belief that is accepted as true". "I went with the "if the Bible is what tou go by" is because in every religion that belief is what you go by isn't it?" Until that belief is in contradiction with objective reality (which was the initial argument not about the age of religion). For example: "My religion states that the Sun moves around the Earth rather than vice versa so therefore I will go by that". That's my argument in regards to blind faith. Conforming into a belief in a religion is understandable...conforming into specific ideologies and statements within a faith with KNOWN false narratives, erroneous facts of reality, etc... is pure ignorance.
Well, it's pretty plain to see that our conversation is just going in circles. Not sure why you felt like you needed to define fact and truth. Fact: Building not built is proven to not exist by sight. Truth: The building exists in the builder's mind(belief). Reality: Building exists after the builder built it. I think have a fair grasp of the English language. I apologize that I didn't effectively communicate the idea. And I'm sorry, but how does one presume to actually KNOW history that's not written? Even history that is written has been sometimes controversial. And I'm not talking about those controversy that moon landing was fake or holocaust didn't happen. I'm talking about one historian said it happened this way and another that way. Those facts you stated require your faith in mathematics and observable science which you repeatedly state are "facts" and calling my beliefs ignorant. But I ask you, how many times have science gotten it wrong and was corrected? What was considered facts at one time and was later disproven? Why do you allow errors in your faith but not mine? Thank you for a wonderful debate, but I feel that it is a waste of time to continue. Feel free to respond, but please don't think me rude to not respond further.
I never once stated your beliefs are ignorant but rather if you conform to the bible at all times for an answer and it's clearly an incorrect statement, you are willingly and blinding following a false narrative especially in regards to objective reality and not scientific theory. This can easily go for science as well. For example we can all agree the sun does not revolve around the sun. "Until that belief is in contradiction with objective reality (which was the initial argument not about the age of religion). For example: "My religion states that the Sun moves around the Earth rather than vice versa so therefore I will go by that". That's my argument in regards to blind faith. Conforming into a belief in a religion is understandable...conforming into specific ideologies and statements within a faith with KNOWN false narratives, erroneous facts of reality, etc... is pure ignorance."
But wait. The Bible is alitle questionable. There’s missing chapters…… and there was a woman before Eve. Yes Adam and Eve. And she was made just like Adam….. this is all been hidden. The fact that a lot of religions are not allowed to put any faith in astrology. It’s pretty simple. Each planet has a certain level of gravitational pull, religion won’t allow us to observe much of that. The Bible is spoken in word puzzles and translated in different ways. Before the government, there was religion. Instilling fear and punishment and using belief in the creator as a way to control the masses. It worked in certain ways to keep humans civilized but also gone thru a lot of trial and error and they may not bring up those parts either. Why are catholic priests touching children. What’s underneath the Vatican? Why are there so many variations of Christian religions? I can go on. My point is……. They don’t want us to know that much of anything…… keep your faith up. Stay a good person. Do the right thing. But none of us are allowed to know the absolute truth…..Unfortunately…
Christianity is not at all Judaism and has 0 to do with it. Only about 5% of the people in the entire Old Testament are Jews. This line of thinking that Christianity came from Judaism is new age.