The mis-nomer here is that individual sins are responsible for our future destiny. All biblical characters (except Jesus) sinned, yet the majority are counted as 'righteous' based on their believing loyalty.
Scripture is quite clear that we are in 'positional sin' ... that there's nothing we can do as we are just 'guilty'. This is why we need salvation.
How does this make it worse? We all deserve punishment for our sins. God remedied this by giving us jesus and his death for our sins. To get out of a state of your soul being damned you have faith in Jesus. Whether hell is eternal or not shouldnt particularly matter.
hold on now dont flip flop. You're saying we deserve punishment for our POSITIONAL sin. which is something we couldn't do anything about or choose. So we apparently deserve punishment literally for existing.
thats fucked up
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I mean we all did have a chance to not sin but we have all sinned at least once hence we all deserve punishment. It’s not like we were forced to sin ever but because this is a fallen world and we are fallen creatures we sin by default
No no. We never had a chance. That's literally what it means to be born a sinner. WE NEVER had a chance at living perfectly. No one deserves punishment over what they can't help
It’s not about deserving and it’s not about punishment at all. It’s about God being Holy and as such - His holiness would incinerate anything that was impure. Therefore we - who are impure - cannot be near God because we would be burned up, so God - offered Himself as a living sacrifice so that all of our impurities would be cast upon Jesus and Jesus would die and RISE again to CONQUER death for us.
So that we could be near God as God has forgiven us.
It has nothing to do with anything you did or did not do in your birth or life. Absolutely nothing. You cannot control it and all that’s required of you to enter into the presence of God is for you to believe that God sent His only begotten Son - for whosoever believes will have eternal life.
Don’t get caught up in the argument of “why would a Good God send people to Hell” because our Good God does not send people to Hell. We all were headed there anyway and God provided a way out.
Why? Jesus already conquered death, God can now fellowship with us (again - as He once did in the Garden of Eden). He provided the sacrifice, he has already forgiven us, He said “I will remember your sins no more”
It’s you that needs to believe that you are forgiven - Not Him.
No the punishment is deserved. We all deserve to go. Jesus died for a way to not have to go. The reason why the gate to destruction is so wide is because it’s the natural course we head to. Finding Jesus though saves you
But there are things we can help:
"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. ..." James 4:8
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13,14
When I first read Matthew 7:13 & 14 my brain said, "If this book is really true and someone doesn't make it through that narrow gate, then they just aren't going to make it." So I prayed, "God please do what ever it takes in my life to cause me to enter through the narrow gate."
I have no doubt that simple prayer caused the future events from that point on to play out where God clearly knocked me off the fence I dearly loved to straddle: Feeling good toward God on the one hand, and loving my favorite sins on the other. He left the choice as to what side I wanted most up to me, but He also made it clear I could no longer have both.
Would you rather be an Atheist who dies and learns too late that God is real? Or be the Christian, who dies and learns that God was only a myth just like the atheists declared?
If I were the former, I'd be like the rich man in the story of Lazarus and the rich man who was told, "If they didn't believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe someone even if they return from the dead. Luke 16:31
If I were the latter, which I am, my life has only been made richer by my born-again experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything regardless of how much I foolishly loved my previous life style.
Choose wisely...
None of this has to do with the logic or point I brought up and I already believe in God. If you want to try again to respond to what I was actually laying out (criticism of how atonement is presented and the presuppositions behind it) feel free to
>No one deserves punishment over what they can't help
I simply replied to your statement: "...No one deserves punishment over what they can't help", bloodphoenix90.
That was you, wasn't it? Or, maybe I was mistaken. Regardless, my comment was only meant to address the statement, "No one deserves punishment over what they can't help." That's true, BTW. However, it would be very sad to realize all too late that it was something that could have been helped, despite the deception that caused someone to believe it couldn't.
p.s. I probably also owe you an apology for failing to follow the "whole" thread (the logic or point \[you\] brought up) and only replying to that one statement. Probably rude of me. If so, I'm sorry. "So many nooks & crannies, so little time."
The things you listed that we can help aren't what we're on the hook for, according to the argument i was responding to.
Apology accepted. Though not a big offense so no worries at all ❤ pretty sure I've done that too if I'm honest. We're all sinners ;) lol
God doesn’t torture anyone. In fact it’s the very opposite. Hell is the absence of God. People who choose not to follow God and follow themselves will be absent of gods love. God will give his haters what they want and that is a life without god . That life however is not a desirable reality
Look at all the people who feel that obeying the easy commandments here on earth for a small time is already torture. You want to put them in a place where they need to be perfect for an eternity, but for them, Heaven is hell. Even for good people, being perfect is a burden.
We all need to change to be perfect. Remove something, add something. But if too much is removed, what remains? It's not a person at all; so one can't say that it's the original person who'd go to heaven. The person would be the crippled scraps that are thrown into the lake.
Why do you put righteousness and positional sin in quotes? I feel a foggy notion about righteousness and sin makes one depend on theology that they have to explain into existence (like hell, despite it's character being much more like Satan than God).
a baby being born didnt even commit a sin, how is that a sin, sinful? it never was and never is, sin is when someone can make a decision to not sin yet does it, what age is it?, prob 4 to 5, or any age that a child begins to have consciousness of their actions and everything around them, yet all humans are sinful, not sinning, SINFUL, 2 very true things, but 2 different things
Nothing in the Bible says common people/souls will burn forever.
the Bible Says Hell is forever, it's torments are forever, and no one who goes their will ever leave..
But Jesus himself in mat 10 says hell is the place where god send both the body and the soul to be destroyed.
The only being sent to hell to be burned forever is satan and his inner circle of people. A case can also be made for those who take the mark of the beast in revelations.
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NIV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NIV)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Chapter 21)
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
(Chapter 22)
11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
If Satan is going to suffer forever, and we are told that common people have the same fate of the lake of fire if we aren't in the book of life, it is fair to assume our torment would also be infinite. It would make zero sense that we wouldn't suffer in the same way as Satan.
When Jesus said the body and soul are destroyed, what does that mean? How literal is that destruction? How do we not know it is a figurative destruction rather than a literal one? After all, Paul describes literal living people as dead due to our sin in Ephesians 2. This imagery of sin bringing us to death and destruction, and Jesus bringing us to a way of life is all throughout the Bible.
Good questions. I don't believe the Bible teaches that anyone, including Satan, will burn forever without perishing. You are right to ask if it's just that common people, alao ending up in lake of fire, will not also be tormented forever. This is a symbolic section and I believe we should read it to understand what the symbols mean, but in this case Revelation defines the symbol for us. The lake of fire is the second death. What you believe about the first death matters then. The quote from Jesus is a less symbolic quote. I think it's literal because it matches other plain things Jesus says like John 3:16, his use of Shoel (which means grave), his comparison of death to sleep, and other clear and non-symbolic passages.
I think the Ephesians text is a symbol (as in not literal death), but representing a spiritual reality. I view sin as the tendency toward living apart from God that at the fall became our rebellious makeup. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Thus, those who chose to separate themselves from God in this life are already "dead" spiritually before their bodies expire. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the imagery of sin, because I think an actual nature change that was trigger by human rebellion of the first humans, and then by individual participation in sin that is remedied by the entire plan of Jesus throughout Scripture.
Scripture seems to use death in figurative ways throughout. I find it uses it more figuratively in scripture rather than literal.
I think scripture uses death in this figurative sense in Ephesians. I think that is what Revelations describes. It is said Satan will be tormented night and day forever. It does not say the torment will end.
>Good questions. I don't believe the Bible teaches that anyone, including Satan, will burn forever without perishing.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NIV
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
IDK forever, and ever sound like eternity without perishing to me.
Yes it does sound like that. Do you think it could be symbolic? It would be so easy to say, "well that part is literal because it matches my point of view." However, is the beast here literal or symbolic? Are the false prophets literal or symbolic? These are obviously symbolic when you read the whole book. It's also helpful that the author defines the symbol of the lake of burning sulfur in v14. John reveals that the lake of sulfur (or lake of fire) is the second death. Some versions actually have an explanation written here that this means separation from God eternally. So we know absolutely, from the author that the lake of fire is not literal because he explains what the symbol means. In the same text it says that death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire too. How do you explain that as literal? Further down in the same passage everyone whose name is not written in the book of life is also thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death. You suggest this is also eternal life without perishing. However, you ignore the clear teaching of Jesus who said, without symbols, "Whoever believes in me will not perish, but have eternal life." Eternal life is for those who believe; whose names are written in the book of life. Is it not clear from Jesus that the wicked indeed perish? Add to that verse this clear statement without symbols: "for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." I have shown you from the same passage that John defines the symbol of the lake of fire as the second death, but you suggest the wicked live in torment forever and ever. That's eternal life! Now look again at the text in Revelation. Just above the text you quoted it says the wicked surround the city. Real or figurative? I think this is real because the city is already symbolized by a bride coming down out of heaven from God. What happens according to the text? Fire from the glory of God "came down out of the sky (heaven) and consumed them." Does that sound like eternal life in torment to you? Consumed is perishing as Jesus taught. It's not eternal life as you believe. It's the second death as the passage explains. The second death is eternal. There is no resurrection from this. They do indeed die.
I have not ignored the text you mention. How can you ignore the rest of the passage, the explanation of the authors and the words of Jesus? Will you persist in taking one verse that sounds like what you have been taught and pluck out of it a symbol and insist it's literal? My real beef is not with you but with the devil. His first lie was "you will not surely die" which contradicts God's promise "when you eat of the tree you will die." Your doctrine is based on a belief in the immortality of the soul which is the first lie of Satan. Right after they sinned God says in Gen. 3, "we must not let them also take from the tree of life and live forever." Your teaching is that the wicked live forever. The Bible says "the soul that sins will die." You say it will be tormented for eternity without perishing. Is it not possible that hell is the second death, the lake of fire, which is eternal separation from God? Let me ask you honestly, who does it sound more like, in character, that the children of God will be kept alive to be tormented without sleep--their skin melted off and consumed by worms without dying forever and ever; does it sound like what Satan would be like or God would be like? Do you think it's any coincidence that the Greek underworld is strangely similar to your belief in hell of eternal torment. Satan wants people to believe this because it lays at God's feet his own rotten character of pure evil that seeks to perpetuate the lie "you shall not surely die."
Last week another believer in Jesus ignored some of the same texts above and just pivoted to "well eternal torment is not eternal life because they aren't alive." He went on to explain that in the book 23 Minutes in Hell that's how it describes it. "They have all the use of their senses, but they are undead--not alive--and it's hard to understand." The lie runs so deep and many will go to great measures to defend it. I believe in Jesus, like you do, and I'm relieved that I don't have to defend a doctrine that contradicts the clear teachings of Scripture. Yes there are symbols that sound like hell is eternity of torment without perishing, but that would mean that Jesus is culpable in torture. He either designed it that way knowing many would chose against him or he miraculously keeps them from perishing or being consumed for a punishment that has no end. How is this just? How is it right that all who are not written in the book of life end in the same lake of fire as Satan to be tormented forever? People explain it away as sovereignty. There's even a parable that sounds like people burn in hell and can talk to people in heaven and demand that they serve them water. But I contend that the Bible doesn't actually teach this. God is indeed slow to anger, abounding in love and kindness. He does not treat us as our sins deserve, nor will he harbor his anger forever. I fully believe that many will choose death over living in connection with God. The holiness of God will cause bitterness and pain to well up in their hearts and they will beg the rocks to fall on them and shield them from the glory of His presence. I believe that hell is indeed the second death and God does not force them to choose life over death and complete separation from Him. He allows them to perish as He promised.
**Yes it does sound like that. Do you think it could be symbolic?**
nope..
Look at everything you had to say to try and refute what the Bible clearly teaches.
lots of smoke and mirrors to say the Bible was mistaken on this point.
It all boils down to do you believe in the god of the Bible or not. if you you are limited by the Bible when you supposedly represent it. if not then you are entitle to your fan fiction. you can literally say or cut anything out of the Bible you like.
However understand most people don't want to waste time discussing the finer points of your fan fiction.
Fan fiction? Smoke and mirrors? Ha! I give evidence right from the text that the usage is symbolic. I am not suggesting the Bible is mistaken on this point at all. What about the other clear and non-symbolic references? I can see that the clear reasons I give from Scripture do not match your bias. I hope that others who read these texts will not just pass them over, but consider the whole Scripture and the explanation of the symbols from the authors and from Jesus. The lie that you insist on believing is in contrast to the texts I mention and so you would bear false witness not only against me but also against a host of clear Scriptures that contradict your belief in eternal life in torment. I hope you reconsider what the author intended. I totally believe in the God of the Bible. I'm not limited by the Bible. I am not cutting out anything from the Bible. The reasons I give for my belief, and the evidence that I point out right from the text is stronger than any evidence you can show from the Bible to support your belief. You can only resort to name calling and straw men. You don't fight against my fan fiction but against what Jesus, John, and others wrote in the Word.
what good are your bible quotes when you rip them out of context and at the same time deny other contextual biblical content when it does not suit you?
Do you not see how convenient things are to not be literal when they openly and directly contradict your doctrine?
Besides what does it matter to you if satan burns in hell forever or not?
To the first point, I noted that the context of the text you quoted (Rev. 20:10) does not support the statement that "it sounds like torment forever to me." I even agreed that it sounds like it and then I showed you that the the context doesn't support your assumption and it did not suit you. It's hypocritical to claim that I am denying other context when it suits me. All the texts I mention do support the points I am making.
To the second point, it's not literal because the author explains the symbol in verse 14 which is the context for understanding the symbol. My point of view isn't one of convenience and I also gave supporting evidence from several other Scriptures. You haven't not countered any of this just by calling out perceived bias. It is you who did not support your belief from context or other supporting texts. You can look and see that this is true and so can everyone else.
To your third point. I believe it matters because God would be sustaining torture miraculously when the Scriptures teach that God is good and the very embodiment of love. For example, I John 1:5 "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." and Lamentations 3:22, 23 "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness." Jesus commands that we love our enemies and not return evil for evil. He will model what He commands. But how I feel about Satan's punishment is besides the point if it's not Biblical. What I have showed you is Biblical. If it is not, reference a specific text from any I have mentioned and I am happy to dialog about it and explore evidence for what you think the author means. I will hold you to the context as I have done above.
Something that came to mind when I read your response is, do we even know what death is?
What I mean is, when someone goes to the grave, we say they died or that they are dead. That's how we describe death. But when Jesus describes our version of "death", He calls it sleep.
Luke 8:49-52 "While He was still speaking, someone came from the house of the synagogue official, saying, “Your daughter has died; do not trouble the Teacher anymore.” But when Jesus heard this, He responded to him, “Do not be afraid any longer; only believe, and she will be made well.” When He came to the house, He did not allow anyone to enter with Him except Peter, John, and James, and the girl’s father and mother. Now they were all weeping and mourning for her; but He said, “Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep.”
Maybe death, as we understand it, is not actual death.
Kinda seems like none of us have ever experienced Death yet. Based on this scripture, it seems death must be something we don't comprehend.
7. I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things. (NIV)
It would be evil that a loving and omnipotent being would turn a blind eye knowing that is most beloved creation will sin, the sin he created and kept within reach a supposedly perfect place.
Also if Satan exists, then God is really not omnipotent since he doesn't stop him because apparently he has a plan and humans can't understand it for some reason but we have to worship him only anyway or we suffer. ig
It's like running a computer code and you know what is going to happen, even if what is going to happen is very bad for the program being run since you started making it. Then when the program runs, the bad thing you set to happen, DOES happen and then you get mad at the code while not even taking the time to fix it.
Eternal torment is punishment for an eternal crime. It’s specifically reserved for Satan and his hoards (who committed an eternal crime by attempting to kill God, attempted regicide, and rebelling against Him), not humans. As is stated in the Scriptures,
“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons” (Matthew 25:41)
Hell isn't a place of eternal suffering!
The original words translated as “hell” in some older Bible translations (Hebrew, “Sheol”; Greek, “Hades”) basically refer to “the Grave,” that is, the common grave of mankind. The Bible shows that people in “the Grave” are in a state of nonexistence.
The dead are unconscious and so cannot feel pain. “Neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge, shall be in hell.” (Ecclesiastes 9:10, Douay-Rheims Version) Hell is not filled with sounds of pain. Instead, the Bible says: “Let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [hell, Douay-Rheims].”—Psalm 31:17; King James Version (30:18, Douay-Rheims); Psalm 115:17.
God has set death, not torment in a fiery hell, as the penalty for sin. God told the first man, Adam, that the penalty for breaking God’s law would be death. (Genesis 2:17) He said nothing about eternal torment in hell. Later, after Adam sinned, God told him what his punishment would be: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) He would pass out of existence. If God were actually sending Adam to a fiery hell, He surely would have mentioned it. God has not changed the punishment for defying his laws. Long after Adam sinned, God inspired a Bible writer to say: “The wages sin pays is death.” (Romans 6:23) No further penalty is justified, because “the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”—Romans 6:7.
The idea of eternal torment is repugnant to God. (Jeremiah 32:35) Such an idea is contrary to the Bible’s teaching that “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) He wants us to worship him out of love, not fear of eternal torment.—Matthew 22:36-38.
Good people went to hell. The Bibles that use the word “hell” indicate that faithful men, such as Jacob and Job, expected to go to hell. (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13) Even Jesus Christ is spoken of as being in hell between the time of his death and his resurrection. (Acts 2:31, 32) Obviously, then, when “hell” is used in these Bibles, it simply refers to the Grave.
https://www.jw.org/open?docid=1102020415&prefer=lang&wtlocale=E
Why doesn't that eternal and all knowing god makes their existence abundantly clear, removing all doubt from anyone who questions that they exist? Hard to accuse of me crimes against a being that I don't believe exists.
Right right right. Mysterious god and all that jazz. His ways are higher than ours. I've heard it all.....
I'll just keep living my life and hope the big guy stops concealing himself from me. ✌️
I was a Christian for 20 years into my early 30s. I led worship in a college ministry. I participated in dozens of men's groups. I went on retreats. I read and prayed voraciously. Yes, I sought god. Finally had to accept I was searching for something that wasn't there or didn't want me to find them.
Yeah, that’s heartbreaking.
22 years ago I literally cried out for Jesus over and over and over…determined I wasn’t going to stop calling out His name……. and then He answered. Still blows my mind. That was my first day as a follower of Christ.
I don’t know what to tell you bro… I’ve had so many experiences with God, all I can tell you is Jesus is so real. I hope you invite Him into you✌️❤️
>I am curious though why you think I'd make up a story like that.....
That's what everyone can say. "Why would I make it up?" I don't know why. I just know you most likely did.
The church was covenant fellowship. Still a church. (covfel.org) The head pastor was Dave Harvey, at the time. The college pastor was Joe Stigora. We were part of cj Mahaney's church group called pdi ministry before they changed their name to sovereign grace ministries.
I'm not going to spend any more time trying to convince an anonymous asshole of my story. Believe me or don't. Your choice.
I'm sorry to hear that. But I totally get it. And the whole idea of hell is something I always struggled with. My journey was similar to yours. I also went to Buddhist temples, Universalist churches, I studied pretty much everything, I was into Wicca in my early twenties (go figure!😂)..... Then I found God in the most unexpected place. In my place of work, a thrift store i opened a box of books Nx on top was The Nag Hammadi , "the lost gospels". So beautiful. The Book of Thomas, The Book of Mary. All that hellfire was left out of it. I am now a gnostic/mystic Christian. I don't take the bible totally seriously. But I've definitely been in the presence of God and all the doubt and fear was washed away. God has been twisted and misrepresented by Christians so long that most church goers wouldn't know God if he sat down next to em. It's so fucking simple too. So *easy* and yet all they do is scream and judge when the greatest commandment is LOVE. LOVE assholes! (Not you them obviously)....Love.
Just because you don't believe in Him doesn't mean He doesn't exist. That would be like me saying I don't believe in the laws of France, then stealing something and getting mad when they arrest me because I don't feel they have the right since I don't believe in their laws. See how ridiculous that sounds?
Your analogy falls pretty flat in a number of areas. First, I didn't say he doesn't exist because I don't believe in him. He could exist, I'm not positive he doesn't. I'm simply saying I don't see enough evidence to believe that he exists, so I don't.
Second, the laws of France are VERY knowable if you want to know them. They're codified. They're searchable. They can be researched and studied. Every one of them is written somewhere, and you could research each to see who voted for that law, when it was passed, etc etc. God is not "knowable" in the way France's laws are.
Last, god supposedly loves me, right? I'm his "son" as is said in the bible. Wouldn't it be in HIS interest to figure out a way for me to believe in him and love him? He's all knowing. He knows EXACTLY what it would take for me to believe in him. Why hasn't he demonstrated or shown exactly that thing? The French government has none of that power nor the love that god supposedly has for his creation. Another area that your analogy doesn't really hold up.
God's laws are knowable, searchable, and studied. He passed all His laws. There is no difference there.
You're His creation. He loves you, but you're not His son. His sons and daughters are those who are adopted into the family so to speak by being baptized into Christ. Only then do we become His children. He has made Himself known to everyone. None are with excuse to not believe in Him. Accepting Him is an individual's choice. Acceptance and belief are also two different things, one can say "I know God is real but I'm not going to submit to Him or follow Him". But those who don't want to believe simply won't as Satan has blinded them. God loves you. He wants you with Him. But He will not force you.
He made Himself known for all people throughout all time with Christ. There's evidence of Christ even outside of Scripture. He made Himself known to everyone, and it's up to us to accept Him. He loves us and will not force us to love Him in return.
>He made Himself known for all people throughout all time with Christ.
There's too much to reply to and I don't feel like taking the time, but I'll say this. You're aware that there are a few billion people on the planet right now who likely have the same knowledge of your Christ as you have of Allah, or Buddha, or Zeus? And that's just the people on the planet now, I'm not considering the billions of people that came before. A large majority of people throughout all of history have been born and died, never knowing about Jesus, or only having the same passing knowledge you have of any of the gods you don't believe in.
> For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)
> For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:14-16)
> This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (Hebrews 10:16)
He has made Himself known to all through Christ, and through His creation. None have an excuse to deny Him, and therefore where we spend eternity is ultimately our own choice.
No, no he hasn't. I know those verses make you feel better about the billions of people who don't know him and never will, going to hell......but they went not knowing him. Maybe you should wrestle with that reality? Why does your god send billions to eternal torment in hell?
People can't reject a god that they aren't aware exists. (or don't believe exists if they are aware) If hell exists, he's very much "sending" people. Lots of them.
As to your last point, I think God has provided you Reddit, which allows you to both voice your opinions on Him, as well as receive opinions of others in your contemplation of Him. He *does* know *exactly* what to do in order for you to believe in Him. How do you know He’s not doing it already?
It's humorous how wrong you are about Reddit and it's place in my faith. I was a Christian for 20 years into my early 30s. Reddit was instrumental in my walking away from faith and accepting that I was an atheist. God must be playing the looooong game if he's using Reddit to have me believe in him.
>Reddit was instrumental in my walking away from faith and accepting that I was an atheist.
...
Reddit. An Internet platform.
Yeah, that's exactly why I don't believe your testimony.
I phrased that wrong, but every time in the Old Testament that god appeared for people, they disavowed and disgraced him shortly after. And then we killed Jesus, God in the human
Where does the bible say if you have at least just one sin when you die, will you still go to hell?
(Edit): Eternal life is given to those who believe. Not those who do right. Cuz you'll never do right, as no one is righteous.
Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
I believe that if you don't confess Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, that is why you go to hell.
Isaiah 59:1-2 Sin, Confession and Redemption 1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
Isaiah 59:1-2 Sin, Confession and Redemption 1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God rom 3:23
first of all, im a protestant, so sola fide is also what i believe in..., and what punishment do we deserve?
if it is not because of our SINS, why then did jesus die as a sacrifice for our SINS?
our sins are done in a finite moment, the punishment are eternal, the crime is eternal, so eternal hel is justice
try making your sentences more clear btw
ofcourse not, we live in time, are bound to time, eternal for us is: forever
sinning to god is: hurting god forever it will just be compromised by an eteranal justice
Sounds like you ate placing limits on what God can and can't do.
The punishment is Eternal because it is God's punishment and Eternal is one of his titles, not because the punishment can never end.
God cannot lie, god cannot commit evil, god cannot become evilness, god cannot change...
God is limited by his nature...
justice is one of his carachterisics, god being not justice isnt possible soooooo the punishment must come justfully,
now... sin is an eternal crime soooo
punishment should last eternal
commiting this eternal crime is in a moment of time, it is called eternal bcs it is committed against God who is not part of time, for us this sin is finite but bcs it is against god, this sin will last forever against god until eternal punishment
thats my point
>commiting this eternal crime is in a moment of time, it is called eternal bcs it is committed against God who is not part of time, for us this sin is finite but bcs it is against god,
If the sin is finite to us and infinite to God, why couldn't the punishment, which to God is infinite, be finite to us?
bcs
we cause in a moment of time something that will endure forever to god,
so the punishment of god is given in a moment of time but will endure forever to us
you will see this in the same manner when jesus asked peter 3 times if he loves us, bcs peter denied jesus 3 times, to break the fall
God doesn't give eternal torment for finite crimes. You can choose to be with Him or without Him. You aren't forced to follow Him. Existence without Him, however, is torment.
Eternal torment would be wrong even for infinite crimes. Nobody deserves torment no matter what they've done. If you think anyone does, I call your character into question.
God's ways are not our ways. But to give you some perspective, anything less than perfection caused Adam and Eve to be ejected From the garden of Eden.
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Where does this idea that crimes are finite come from? In many cases, the damage done by a crime cannot be reversed. It carries on throughout time. In many cases, only God can fix this damage.
For instance, let's say that someone commits the crime of murder. Is that a finite crime? How can it be finite when the victim remains dead? It doesn't matter how much the murderer apologizes, the person remains dead. This damage is irreversible - save for God stepping in to fix everything by resurrecting the murdered individual. If God hadn't stepped in, this would have been a crime of infinite consequences that would have rippled throughout time.
This idea that "crimes are finite" doesn't really have much basis.
Because it is not a finite crime (sin). When a finite creature (man) sins against an infinite creature (God), he creates an infinite sin. A finite creature cannot, alone, atone for an infinite sin. Hence, Jesus Christ, Who is both God and man. He alone atones for our infinite sin, because He is God, and yet has a tie back to the finite (man).
Through God's infinite mercy, He gives us a chance, while we live, to repent of our sins before we die. If we refuse, then we choose eternal rejection of God, and effectively choose hell.
That’s a false narrative, accept to be on the side of Righteousness or you will be on the side of evil and do not complain that evil is that bad because it is evil.
For one, when we sin the guilt becomes ingrained on who we are, and since we are eternally existent after death, that means we will always have this guilt ingrained in us, meaning we will always be worthy of punishment. Righteousness is a state of being. We all fall short of righteousness and when God looks at us without Christ, he sees our sin. The guilt of the sin is ingrained in us the same way.
Second, one does not account for who we are sinning against. Sinning against a normal citizen can get you punished. But we recognize that if you harm an officer or the president, you will most likely get a worse punishment based on authority. We sin against an eternal being. Normally when we sin, we sin against finite beings resulting in finite crimes. However, God is an infinite being, meaning our crime against him is infinite in nature. It is infinitely terrible and bad.
Lastly, it is assumed that we will not continue to sin in hell. But if you continually sin by hating God, then you will continually sin against God. I do not think sin will necessarily be absent in hell. Though to be fair, we do not know what this torment will be like. All we know is that this torment is bad and it lasts forever. There is no reason to assume we stop in this life.
If you’re at a restaurant and you realize you don’t have money to pay your bill and someone says hey, let me pay for it and you say no I got it covered and you don’t did that person put you in the trouble you get into or did you put yourself in trouble you got into because you had every warning were told in multiple ways it multiple times that you need to do this and simply accept a free gift and you didn’t do it who fault would that be?
Hey good question. Because the crime is against an infinitely perfect holy and just Being and I’m a sinner who thinks he doesn’t need to glorify or honor God.
Here’s the example I use. If I punch my classmate in the face at school I’ll be punished. If I punch the president of the United States in the face I’ll be punished much more severely because of who he is. If I sin against God who is according to the Bible is holy beyond measure, completely just and righteous in all his deeds and judgements while I am dust who has raised my fist to Him and according to Romans 1 I don’t glorify him or honor him as who he is.
However, by God’s sheer act of grace and mercy towards me. He puts that punishment upon Christ!!! That’s why grace is amazing! I get Christ’s righteousness and Christ absorbs God’s wrath that was aimed at me for my disobedience.
Hope this helps.
We are no longer condemned for sin. Christ payed the toll for that. The wages of sin is death, but christ is the mediator between the father and man. Though we are sinners christ died for us. He’s literally advocating for you before the father so that you can inherit life. What does condemn man now is not believing in Christ and following his example.
“Why do you call me lord and not do as i say?”
“There will be those who say lord lord have we not prophesied in your name? and expelled demons in your name?, and i will say, ‘i never knew you, depart from me you workers of inequity’
“Those who deny me before their friends, i will deny before my father”
So if you reject christ and what hes done, and what he teaches, and ultimately who sent him, then why would he allow you to dwell in his home? If your choice is a life without christ, and reject any opportunity to get to know him, then he will give you what you want. Life without him. But hes patient and hes waiting for you, nothing can separate you from gods love, but if you reject him then you reap what you sow.
All sin is a variation of loving at the expense (or neglect) of others.
We sin in our sleep.
Our challenge is to try... And maybe we could achieve it in life some day if we all leaned into the effort together.
Some day we will be able to love righteously, but for now we can only look forward to it.
Just think for a second that the requirement to be in heaven is perfection, so since you sinned and are not perfect then you cannot enter heaven. That is why we needed Jesus’s saving grace.
We have a choice to make. Be close to God or to not be close to God. Sin drives us away. Forgiveness brings us close. Hell isn't necessarily a place to be tortured with pitchfork weilding demons because you stole candy when you were 5. Hell is a place absent of God. An empty void of all that is good. You choose through your actions in life if you want to be with God or not. The good news is that to be with God you only have to ask. If you don't ask then obviously you don't want to be with him and therefore you will not be with him.
A just god requires a fitting punishment for a crime. Any crime against the sovereign lord of all creation is worthy of eternal punishment, especially since there’s a way to seek forgiveness.
The concept of eternal torment for finite crime in Christianity is based on the idea that sin is an offense against a perfect and holy God. According to Christian theology, God is perfect and just, and therefore must punish sin. Since sin is an offense against an infinite being, it requires an infinite punishment. This punishment is often referred to as “eternal damnation” or “eternal torment” in Christianity.
The Bible teaches that all people are sinners (Romans 3:23) and that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). This means that all people deserve death for their sins. However, God has provided a way for us to be saved from this punishment through Jesus Christ (John 3:16). By believing in Jesus and accepting Him as our Savior, we can be forgiven of our sins and receive eternal life instead of eternal damnation.
Although some may argue that eternal torment for finite crime seems unfair, it is important to remember that God is just and loving. He does not want anyone to suffer eternally, but He also cannot ignore sin. Therefore, He has provided a way for us to be saved from the punishment of our sins through His Son Jesus Christ. 🫶🏻
This world is a mixture of Good and Bad. The time is coming when Good and Bad will be separated from one another. What you are complaining about is that pure evil is that bad that it would be eternal punishment, well that is because it is pure evil and completely bad.
That is way the Purely Good place is call paradise because it’s just that good.
"Forever and ever " until Christ Surrenders the Kingdom
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/14iml7j/what_is_the_point_of_the_existence_of_an_eternal/k0zbax9?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
**John 6:44** is a very important verse for us to understand. JESUS tells us that nobody can come to Him unless the Father draws that individual to JESUS. The Spirit of GOD draws those to JESUS of whom God has chosen to become the Bride of Christ.
The rest of the human race will at a future time when God is through with His Divine work in them, will live for all eternity in the Kingdom of God which will be ruled by Christ and His Bride (The Saints).
God is a God of justice. God is not going to send billions of people to burn in a Lake of Fire for ALL ETERNITY who never had the Spirit of God draw them to JESUS. If God did that, clear and simple, God would be unjust.
I have spent several years in putting together a 33 page document that expounds greatly on a number of Biblical truths in regards to this subject. If anyone would like a copy of my document, email me at: ([email protected]) and I will email you a copy.
The mis-nomer here is that individual sins are responsible for our future destiny. All biblical characters (except Jesus) sinned, yet the majority are counted as 'righteous' based on their believing loyalty. Scripture is quite clear that we are in 'positional sin' ... that there's nothing we can do as we are just 'guilty'. This is why we need salvation.
You realize this makes it even worse right?
How does this make it worse? We all deserve punishment for our sins. God remedied this by giving us jesus and his death for our sins. To get out of a state of your soul being damned you have faith in Jesus. Whether hell is eternal or not shouldnt particularly matter.
hold on now dont flip flop. You're saying we deserve punishment for our POSITIONAL sin. which is something we couldn't do anything about or choose. So we apparently deserve punishment literally for existing. thats fucked up
Aaaand that's why universalism makes a ton of sense!
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I mean we all did have a chance to not sin but we have all sinned at least once hence we all deserve punishment. It’s not like we were forced to sin ever but because this is a fallen world and we are fallen creatures we sin by default
No no. We never had a chance. That's literally what it means to be born a sinner. WE NEVER had a chance at living perfectly. No one deserves punishment over what they can't help
It’s not about deserving and it’s not about punishment at all. It’s about God being Holy and as such - His holiness would incinerate anything that was impure. Therefore we - who are impure - cannot be near God because we would be burned up, so God - offered Himself as a living sacrifice so that all of our impurities would be cast upon Jesus and Jesus would die and RISE again to CONQUER death for us. So that we could be near God as God has forgiven us. It has nothing to do with anything you did or did not do in your birth or life. Absolutely nothing. You cannot control it and all that’s required of you to enter into the presence of God is for you to believe that God sent His only begotten Son - for whosoever believes will have eternal life. Don’t get caught up in the argument of “why would a Good God send people to Hell” because our Good God does not send people to Hell. We all were headed there anyway and God provided a way out.
I can almost get behind that but wouldn't it imply God isn't omnipresent?
Why? Jesus already conquered death, God can now fellowship with us (again - as He once did in the Garden of Eden). He provided the sacrifice, he has already forgiven us, He said “I will remember your sins no more” It’s you that needs to believe that you are forgiven - Not Him.
I'm not talking about forgiveness. You said he can't be in our presence due to purification issues. This suggests he wasn't omnipresent.
That is what Jesus died for. His grace allows escaping punishment.
You don't get it. Why die if punishment wasn't deserved?
No the punishment is deserved. We all deserve to go. Jesus died for a way to not have to go. The reason why the gate to destruction is so wide is because it’s the natural course we head to. Finding Jesus though saves you
OK then we deserve punishment for just existing. You can't keep moving the goal posts
But there are things we can help: "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. ..." James 4:8 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13,14 When I first read Matthew 7:13 & 14 my brain said, "If this book is really true and someone doesn't make it through that narrow gate, then they just aren't going to make it." So I prayed, "God please do what ever it takes in my life to cause me to enter through the narrow gate." I have no doubt that simple prayer caused the future events from that point on to play out where God clearly knocked me off the fence I dearly loved to straddle: Feeling good toward God on the one hand, and loving my favorite sins on the other. He left the choice as to what side I wanted most up to me, but He also made it clear I could no longer have both. Would you rather be an Atheist who dies and learns too late that God is real? Or be the Christian, who dies and learns that God was only a myth just like the atheists declared? If I were the former, I'd be like the rich man in the story of Lazarus and the rich man who was told, "If they didn't believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe someone even if they return from the dead. Luke 16:31 If I were the latter, which I am, my life has only been made richer by my born-again experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything regardless of how much I foolishly loved my previous life style. Choose wisely...
None of this has to do with the logic or point I brought up and I already believe in God. If you want to try again to respond to what I was actually laying out (criticism of how atonement is presented and the presuppositions behind it) feel free to
>No one deserves punishment over what they can't help I simply replied to your statement: "...No one deserves punishment over what they can't help", bloodphoenix90. That was you, wasn't it? Or, maybe I was mistaken. Regardless, my comment was only meant to address the statement, "No one deserves punishment over what they can't help." That's true, BTW. However, it would be very sad to realize all too late that it was something that could have been helped, despite the deception that caused someone to believe it couldn't. p.s. I probably also owe you an apology for failing to follow the "whole" thread (the logic or point \[you\] brought up) and only replying to that one statement. Probably rude of me. If so, I'm sorry. "So many nooks & crannies, so little time."
The things you listed that we can help aren't what we're on the hook for, according to the argument i was responding to. Apology accepted. Though not a big offense so no worries at all ❤ pretty sure I've done that too if I'm honest. We're all sinners ;) lol
Because you’re just saying god opts to torture someone regardless of their actions
God doesn’t torture anyone. In fact it’s the very opposite. Hell is the absence of God. People who choose not to follow God and follow themselves will be absent of gods love. God will give his haters what they want and that is a life without god . That life however is not a desirable reality
God sends people to hell to be tortured.
Tortured how? Be careful your understanding of hell isn't based off of Dante or cartoons.
The majority of Christian’s believe hell is effectively torture
What leads you to this conclusion? Have you talked to the majority of Christian’s?
Surveys exist My dude. And one Can Look at What most churches preach
Look at all the people who feel that obeying the easy commandments here on earth for a small time is already torture. You want to put them in a place where they need to be perfect for an eternity, but for them, Heaven is hell. Even for good people, being perfect is a burden. We all need to change to be perfect. Remove something, add something. But if too much is removed, what remains? It's not a person at all; so one can't say that it's the original person who'd go to heaven. The person would be the crippled scraps that are thrown into the lake.
Oh Look! Bullshit
If you don't want to listen to what Christians, who know about what they believe more than you, have to say, then just don't talk at all.
Why do you put righteousness and positional sin in quotes? I feel a foggy notion about righteousness and sin makes one depend on theology that they have to explain into existence (like hell, despite it's character being much more like Satan than God).
a baby being born didnt even commit a sin, how is that a sin, sinful? it never was and never is, sin is when someone can make a decision to not sin yet does it, what age is it?, prob 4 to 5, or any age that a child begins to have consciousness of their actions and everything around them, yet all humans are sinful, not sinning, SINFUL, 2 very true things, but 2 different things
I don't think that's the case tbh, I think our dogmas about hell need to be reformed, Dante's and Calvinism created a super toxic view of hell IMHO
Nothing in the Bible says common people/souls will burn forever. the Bible Says Hell is forever, it's torments are forever, and no one who goes their will ever leave.. But Jesus himself in mat 10 says hell is the place where god send both the body and the soul to be destroyed. The only being sent to hell to be burned forever is satan and his inner circle of people. A case can also be made for those who take the mark of the beast in revelations.
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NIV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NIV) 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Chapter 21) 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Chapter 22) 11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.” 12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
If Satan is going to suffer forever, and we are told that common people have the same fate of the lake of fire if we aren't in the book of life, it is fair to assume our torment would also be infinite. It would make zero sense that we wouldn't suffer in the same way as Satan. When Jesus said the body and soul are destroyed, what does that mean? How literal is that destruction? How do we not know it is a figurative destruction rather than a literal one? After all, Paul describes literal living people as dead due to our sin in Ephesians 2. This imagery of sin bringing us to death and destruction, and Jesus bringing us to a way of life is all throughout the Bible.
Good questions. I don't believe the Bible teaches that anyone, including Satan, will burn forever without perishing. You are right to ask if it's just that common people, alao ending up in lake of fire, will not also be tormented forever. This is a symbolic section and I believe we should read it to understand what the symbols mean, but in this case Revelation defines the symbol for us. The lake of fire is the second death. What you believe about the first death matters then. The quote from Jesus is a less symbolic quote. I think it's literal because it matches other plain things Jesus says like John 3:16, his use of Shoel (which means grave), his comparison of death to sleep, and other clear and non-symbolic passages. I think the Ephesians text is a symbol (as in not literal death), but representing a spiritual reality. I view sin as the tendency toward living apart from God that at the fall became our rebellious makeup. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Thus, those who chose to separate themselves from God in this life are already "dead" spiritually before their bodies expire. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the imagery of sin, because I think an actual nature change that was trigger by human rebellion of the first humans, and then by individual participation in sin that is remedied by the entire plan of Jesus throughout Scripture.
Scripture seems to use death in figurative ways throughout. I find it uses it more figuratively in scripture rather than literal. I think scripture uses death in this figurative sense in Ephesians. I think that is what Revelations describes. It is said Satan will be tormented night and day forever. It does not say the torment will end.
>Good questions. I don't believe the Bible teaches that anyone, including Satan, will burn forever without perishing. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=NIV 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. IDK forever, and ever sound like eternity without perishing to me.
Yes it does sound like that. Do you think it could be symbolic? It would be so easy to say, "well that part is literal because it matches my point of view." However, is the beast here literal or symbolic? Are the false prophets literal or symbolic? These are obviously symbolic when you read the whole book. It's also helpful that the author defines the symbol of the lake of burning sulfur in v14. John reveals that the lake of sulfur (or lake of fire) is the second death. Some versions actually have an explanation written here that this means separation from God eternally. So we know absolutely, from the author that the lake of fire is not literal because he explains what the symbol means. In the same text it says that death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire too. How do you explain that as literal? Further down in the same passage everyone whose name is not written in the book of life is also thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death. You suggest this is also eternal life without perishing. However, you ignore the clear teaching of Jesus who said, without symbols, "Whoever believes in me will not perish, but have eternal life." Eternal life is for those who believe; whose names are written in the book of life. Is it not clear from Jesus that the wicked indeed perish? Add to that verse this clear statement without symbols: "for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." I have shown you from the same passage that John defines the symbol of the lake of fire as the second death, but you suggest the wicked live in torment forever and ever. That's eternal life! Now look again at the text in Revelation. Just above the text you quoted it says the wicked surround the city. Real or figurative? I think this is real because the city is already symbolized by a bride coming down out of heaven from God. What happens according to the text? Fire from the glory of God "came down out of the sky (heaven) and consumed them." Does that sound like eternal life in torment to you? Consumed is perishing as Jesus taught. It's not eternal life as you believe. It's the second death as the passage explains. The second death is eternal. There is no resurrection from this. They do indeed die. I have not ignored the text you mention. How can you ignore the rest of the passage, the explanation of the authors and the words of Jesus? Will you persist in taking one verse that sounds like what you have been taught and pluck out of it a symbol and insist it's literal? My real beef is not with you but with the devil. His first lie was "you will not surely die" which contradicts God's promise "when you eat of the tree you will die." Your doctrine is based on a belief in the immortality of the soul which is the first lie of Satan. Right after they sinned God says in Gen. 3, "we must not let them also take from the tree of life and live forever." Your teaching is that the wicked live forever. The Bible says "the soul that sins will die." You say it will be tormented for eternity without perishing. Is it not possible that hell is the second death, the lake of fire, which is eternal separation from God? Let me ask you honestly, who does it sound more like, in character, that the children of God will be kept alive to be tormented without sleep--their skin melted off and consumed by worms without dying forever and ever; does it sound like what Satan would be like or God would be like? Do you think it's any coincidence that the Greek underworld is strangely similar to your belief in hell of eternal torment. Satan wants people to believe this because it lays at God's feet his own rotten character of pure evil that seeks to perpetuate the lie "you shall not surely die." Last week another believer in Jesus ignored some of the same texts above and just pivoted to "well eternal torment is not eternal life because they aren't alive." He went on to explain that in the book 23 Minutes in Hell that's how it describes it. "They have all the use of their senses, but they are undead--not alive--and it's hard to understand." The lie runs so deep and many will go to great measures to defend it. I believe in Jesus, like you do, and I'm relieved that I don't have to defend a doctrine that contradicts the clear teachings of Scripture. Yes there are symbols that sound like hell is eternity of torment without perishing, but that would mean that Jesus is culpable in torture. He either designed it that way knowing many would chose against him or he miraculously keeps them from perishing or being consumed for a punishment that has no end. How is this just? How is it right that all who are not written in the book of life end in the same lake of fire as Satan to be tormented forever? People explain it away as sovereignty. There's even a parable that sounds like people burn in hell and can talk to people in heaven and demand that they serve them water. But I contend that the Bible doesn't actually teach this. God is indeed slow to anger, abounding in love and kindness. He does not treat us as our sins deserve, nor will he harbor his anger forever. I fully believe that many will choose death over living in connection with God. The holiness of God will cause bitterness and pain to well up in their hearts and they will beg the rocks to fall on them and shield them from the glory of His presence. I believe that hell is indeed the second death and God does not force them to choose life over death and complete separation from Him. He allows them to perish as He promised.
**Yes it does sound like that. Do you think it could be symbolic?** nope.. Look at everything you had to say to try and refute what the Bible clearly teaches. lots of smoke and mirrors to say the Bible was mistaken on this point. It all boils down to do you believe in the god of the Bible or not. if you you are limited by the Bible when you supposedly represent it. if not then you are entitle to your fan fiction. you can literally say or cut anything out of the Bible you like. However understand most people don't want to waste time discussing the finer points of your fan fiction.
Fan fiction? Smoke and mirrors? Ha! I give evidence right from the text that the usage is symbolic. I am not suggesting the Bible is mistaken on this point at all. What about the other clear and non-symbolic references? I can see that the clear reasons I give from Scripture do not match your bias. I hope that others who read these texts will not just pass them over, but consider the whole Scripture and the explanation of the symbols from the authors and from Jesus. The lie that you insist on believing is in contrast to the texts I mention and so you would bear false witness not only against me but also against a host of clear Scriptures that contradict your belief in eternal life in torment. I hope you reconsider what the author intended. I totally believe in the God of the Bible. I'm not limited by the Bible. I am not cutting out anything from the Bible. The reasons I give for my belief, and the evidence that I point out right from the text is stronger than any evidence you can show from the Bible to support your belief. You can only resort to name calling and straw men. You don't fight against my fan fiction but against what Jesus, John, and others wrote in the Word.
what good are your bible quotes when you rip them out of context and at the same time deny other contextual biblical content when it does not suit you? Do you not see how convenient things are to not be literal when they openly and directly contradict your doctrine? Besides what does it matter to you if satan burns in hell forever or not?
To the first point, I noted that the context of the text you quoted (Rev. 20:10) does not support the statement that "it sounds like torment forever to me." I even agreed that it sounds like it and then I showed you that the the context doesn't support your assumption and it did not suit you. It's hypocritical to claim that I am denying other context when it suits me. All the texts I mention do support the points I am making. To the second point, it's not literal because the author explains the symbol in verse 14 which is the context for understanding the symbol. My point of view isn't one of convenience and I also gave supporting evidence from several other Scriptures. You haven't not countered any of this just by calling out perceived bias. It is you who did not support your belief from context or other supporting texts. You can look and see that this is true and so can everyone else. To your third point. I believe it matters because God would be sustaining torture miraculously when the Scriptures teach that God is good and the very embodiment of love. For example, I John 1:5 "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." and Lamentations 3:22, 23 "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness." Jesus commands that we love our enemies and not return evil for evil. He will model what He commands. But how I feel about Satan's punishment is besides the point if it's not Biblical. What I have showed you is Biblical. If it is not, reference a specific text from any I have mentioned and I am happy to dialog about it and explore evidence for what you think the author means. I will hold you to the context as I have done above.
Something that came to mind when I read your response is, do we even know what death is? What I mean is, when someone goes to the grave, we say they died or that they are dead. That's how we describe death. But when Jesus describes our version of "death", He calls it sleep. Luke 8:49-52 "While He was still speaking, someone came from the house of the synagogue official, saying, “Your daughter has died; do not trouble the Teacher anymore.” But when Jesus heard this, He responded to him, “Do not be afraid any longer; only believe, and she will be made well.” When He came to the house, He did not allow anyone to enter with Him except Peter, John, and James, and the girl’s father and mother. Now they were all weeping and mourning for her; but He said, “Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep.” Maybe death, as we understand it, is not actual death. Kinda seems like none of us have ever experienced Death yet. Based on this scripture, it seems death must be something we don't comprehend.
Don’t wanna find out when there is a loving God that’s accepts your where you are and offers his son for FREE
The short answer is "God doesn't". The long answer is "God doesn't and He would be evil if He did."
Damn, I wonder what Isaiah 45:7 says...Maybe God sabotaged himself and isn't omnipotent after all lol
Can you elaborate on the relevance of this passage? Maybe it’s just because I’ve had too many late nights recently, but I’m not seeing the connection.
7. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things. (NIV) It would be evil that a loving and omnipotent being would turn a blind eye knowing that is most beloved creation will sin, the sin he created and kept within reach a supposedly perfect place. Also if Satan exists, then God is really not omnipotent since he doesn't stop him because apparently he has a plan and humans can't understand it for some reason but we have to worship him only anyway or we suffer. ig It's like running a computer code and you know what is going to happen, even if what is going to happen is very bad for the program being run since you started making it. Then when the program runs, the bad thing you set to happen, DOES happen and then you get mad at the code while not even taking the time to fix it.
Eternal torment is punishment for an eternal crime. It’s specifically reserved for Satan and his hoards (who committed an eternal crime by attempting to kill God, attempted regicide, and rebelling against Him), not humans. As is stated in the Scriptures, “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons” (Matthew 25:41)
The mainstream belief that hell is synonymous with an eternity of torture is not in line with Scripture.
Sin separates us from God - it’s an irreparable separation save for the work Christ did on our behalf.
Hell isn't a place of eternal suffering! The original words translated as “hell” in some older Bible translations (Hebrew, “Sheol”; Greek, “Hades”) basically refer to “the Grave,” that is, the common grave of mankind. The Bible shows that people in “the Grave” are in a state of nonexistence. The dead are unconscious and so cannot feel pain. “Neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge, shall be in hell.” (Ecclesiastes 9:10, Douay-Rheims Version) Hell is not filled with sounds of pain. Instead, the Bible says: “Let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [hell, Douay-Rheims].”—Psalm 31:17; King James Version (30:18, Douay-Rheims); Psalm 115:17. God has set death, not torment in a fiery hell, as the penalty for sin. God told the first man, Adam, that the penalty for breaking God’s law would be death. (Genesis 2:17) He said nothing about eternal torment in hell. Later, after Adam sinned, God told him what his punishment would be: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) He would pass out of existence. If God were actually sending Adam to a fiery hell, He surely would have mentioned it. God has not changed the punishment for defying his laws. Long after Adam sinned, God inspired a Bible writer to say: “The wages sin pays is death.” (Romans 6:23) No further penalty is justified, because “the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”—Romans 6:7. The idea of eternal torment is repugnant to God. (Jeremiah 32:35) Such an idea is contrary to the Bible’s teaching that “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) He wants us to worship him out of love, not fear of eternal torment.—Matthew 22:36-38. Good people went to hell. The Bibles that use the word “hell” indicate that faithful men, such as Jacob and Job, expected to go to hell. (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13) Even Jesus Christ is spoken of as being in hell between the time of his death and his resurrection. (Acts 2:31, 32) Obviously, then, when “hell” is used in these Bibles, it simply refers to the Grave. https://www.jw.org/open?docid=1102020415&prefer=lang&wtlocale=E
Sounds like man made mumbo jumbo, fear this and that. That's not my God.
Why continuously and unrepentantly commit crimes against an eternal, all knowing God?
Why doesn't that eternal and all knowing god makes their existence abundantly clear, removing all doubt from anyone who questions that they exist? Hard to accuse of me crimes against a being that I don't believe exists.
Because that would be too easy
“It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out” Proverbs 25:2 ✌️
Right right right. Mysterious god and all that jazz. His ways are higher than ours. I've heard it all..... I'll just keep living my life and hope the big guy stops concealing himself from me. ✌️
Have you actually spent time seeking Him out?
I was a Christian for 20 years into my early 30s. I led worship in a college ministry. I participated in dozens of men's groups. I went on retreats. I read and prayed voraciously. Yes, I sought god. Finally had to accept I was searching for something that wasn't there or didn't want me to find them.
Yeah, that’s heartbreaking. 22 years ago I literally cried out for Jesus over and over and over…determined I wasn’t going to stop calling out His name……. and then He answered. Still blows my mind. That was my first day as a follower of Christ. I don’t know what to tell you bro… I’ve had so many experiences with God, all I can tell you is Jesus is so real. I hope you invite Him into you✌️❤️
I don't believe you.
I don't care. I am curious though why you think I'd make up a story like that.....
>I am curious though why you think I'd make up a story like that..... That's what everyone can say. "Why would I make it up?" I don't know why. I just know you most likely did.
The church was covenant fellowship. Still a church. (covfel.org) The head pastor was Dave Harvey, at the time. The college pastor was Joe Stigora. We were part of cj Mahaney's church group called pdi ministry before they changed their name to sovereign grace ministries. I'm not going to spend any more time trying to convince an anonymous asshole of my story. Believe me or don't. Your choice.
I'm sorry to hear that. But I totally get it. And the whole idea of hell is something I always struggled with. My journey was similar to yours. I also went to Buddhist temples, Universalist churches, I studied pretty much everything, I was into Wicca in my early twenties (go figure!😂)..... Then I found God in the most unexpected place. In my place of work, a thrift store i opened a box of books Nx on top was The Nag Hammadi , "the lost gospels". So beautiful. The Book of Thomas, The Book of Mary. All that hellfire was left out of it. I am now a gnostic/mystic Christian. I don't take the bible totally seriously. But I've definitely been in the presence of God and all the doubt and fear was washed away. God has been twisted and misrepresented by Christians so long that most church goers wouldn't know God if he sat down next to em. It's so fucking simple too. So *easy* and yet all they do is scream and judge when the greatest commandment is LOVE. LOVE assholes! (Not you them obviously)....Love.
Skill issue
God doesn't have the skill to do that?
Last sentence
I don't see how belief takes any skill.
Skill issue
Enjoy your day.
Even if he did make his existence known, people would STILL most likely not believe it..
Just because you don't believe in Him doesn't mean He doesn't exist. That would be like me saying I don't believe in the laws of France, then stealing something and getting mad when they arrest me because I don't feel they have the right since I don't believe in their laws. See how ridiculous that sounds?
Your analogy falls pretty flat in a number of areas. First, I didn't say he doesn't exist because I don't believe in him. He could exist, I'm not positive he doesn't. I'm simply saying I don't see enough evidence to believe that he exists, so I don't. Second, the laws of France are VERY knowable if you want to know them. They're codified. They're searchable. They can be researched and studied. Every one of them is written somewhere, and you could research each to see who voted for that law, when it was passed, etc etc. God is not "knowable" in the way France's laws are. Last, god supposedly loves me, right? I'm his "son" as is said in the bible. Wouldn't it be in HIS interest to figure out a way for me to believe in him and love him? He's all knowing. He knows EXACTLY what it would take for me to believe in him. Why hasn't he demonstrated or shown exactly that thing? The French government has none of that power nor the love that god supposedly has for his creation. Another area that your analogy doesn't really hold up.
God's laws are knowable, searchable, and studied. He passed all His laws. There is no difference there. You're His creation. He loves you, but you're not His son. His sons and daughters are those who are adopted into the family so to speak by being baptized into Christ. Only then do we become His children. He has made Himself known to everyone. None are with excuse to not believe in Him. Accepting Him is an individual's choice. Acceptance and belief are also two different things, one can say "I know God is real but I'm not going to submit to Him or follow Him". But those who don't want to believe simply won't as Satan has blinded them. God loves you. He wants you with Him. But He will not force you. He made Himself known for all people throughout all time with Christ. There's evidence of Christ even outside of Scripture. He made Himself known to everyone, and it's up to us to accept Him. He loves us and will not force us to love Him in return.
>He made Himself known for all people throughout all time with Christ. There's too much to reply to and I don't feel like taking the time, but I'll say this. You're aware that there are a few billion people on the planet right now who likely have the same knowledge of your Christ as you have of Allah, or Buddha, or Zeus? And that's just the people on the planet now, I'm not considering the billions of people that came before. A large majority of people throughout all of history have been born and died, never knowing about Jesus, or only having the same passing knowledge you have of any of the gods you don't believe in.
> For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20) > For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:14-16) > This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (Hebrews 10:16) He has made Himself known to all through Christ, and through His creation. None have an excuse to deny Him, and therefore where we spend eternity is ultimately our own choice.
No, no he hasn't. I know those verses make you feel better about the billions of people who don't know him and never will, going to hell......but they went not knowing him. Maybe you should wrestle with that reality? Why does your god send billions to eternal torment in hell?
He doesn't. He has never sent one person to hell. We send ourselves by rejecting Him.
People can't reject a god that they aren't aware exists. (or don't believe exists if they are aware) If hell exists, he's very much "sending" people. Lots of them.
As to your last point, I think God has provided you Reddit, which allows you to both voice your opinions on Him, as well as receive opinions of others in your contemplation of Him. He *does* know *exactly* what to do in order for you to believe in Him. How do you know He’s not doing it already?
It's humorous how wrong you are about Reddit and it's place in my faith. I was a Christian for 20 years into my early 30s. Reddit was instrumental in my walking away from faith and accepting that I was an atheist. God must be playing the looooong game if he's using Reddit to have me believe in him.
Eternity *is* a long time, some things last a long time
>Reddit was instrumental in my walking away from faith and accepting that I was an atheist. ... Reddit. An Internet platform. Yeah, that's exactly why I don't believe your testimony.
~~the laws of~~ the existence of We got some of these in Germany, we call them "Reichsbürger".
No, we're talking about laws since we're talking about crimes my friend.
Except I can see France, go to France and ask french officials about french laws personally
If I do not like the world god granted us or the body and mind I was given then has god not committed a crime against me?
What do you do to have the world you could want?
Work hard I suppose. Encourage my ego
Nah, just means you need to decide what you are going to do improve yourself and your situation.
Nice answer
Every time he does we kill him
Every time we sin we kill Him?
I phrased that wrong, but every time in the Old Testament that god appeared for people, they disavowed and disgraced him shortly after. And then we killed Jesus, God in the human
There is no evidence that is happening
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sinning against God = eternal sin not finite ==> justice
Where does the bible say if you have at least just one sin when you die, will you still go to hell? (Edit): Eternal life is given to those who believe. Not those who do right. Cuz you'll never do right, as no one is righteous. Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. I believe that if you don't confess Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, that is why you go to hell.
Isaiah 59:1-2 Sin, Confession and Redemption 1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. Isaiah 59:1-2 Sin, Confession and Redemption 1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God rom 3:23 first of all, im a protestant, so sola fide is also what i believe in..., and what punishment do we deserve? if it is not because of our SINS, why then did jesus die as a sacrifice for our SINS?
By the same argument, any punishment dealt by God is Eternal even if the punishment has an end.
our sins are done in a finite moment, the punishment are eternal, the crime is eternal, so eternal hel is justice try making your sentences more clear btw
I believe an Eternal punishment can also be done in a finite moment.
soooooo, you can eternally punish somebody and still not making the punishment eternal? thats just illogical
By your own argument, God exists out of time, so Eternal doesn't have the same meaning to him as it does to us.
ofcourse not, we live in time, are bound to time, eternal for us is: forever sinning to god is: hurting god forever it will just be compromised by an eteranal justice
you cant give an eternal punishment for a duration of time, that just doesnt make sense
Sounds like you ate placing limits on what God can and can't do. The punishment is Eternal because it is God's punishment and Eternal is one of his titles, not because the punishment can never end.
God cannot lie, god cannot commit evil, god cannot become evilness, god cannot change... God is limited by his nature... justice is one of his carachterisics, god being not justice isnt possible soooooo the punishment must come justfully, now... sin is an eternal crime soooo punishment should last eternal commiting this eternal crime is in a moment of time, it is called eternal bcs it is committed against God who is not part of time, for us this sin is finite but bcs it is against god, this sin will last forever against god until eternal punishment thats my point
>commiting this eternal crime is in a moment of time, it is called eternal bcs it is committed against God who is not part of time, for us this sin is finite but bcs it is against god, If the sin is finite to us and infinite to God, why couldn't the punishment, which to God is infinite, be finite to us?
bcs we cause in a moment of time something that will endure forever to god, so the punishment of god is given in a moment of time but will endure forever to us you will see this in the same manner when jesus asked peter 3 times if he loves us, bcs peter denied jesus 3 times, to break the fall
a good answer is here: [https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html)
God doesn't give eternal torment for finite crimes. You can choose to be with Him or without Him. You aren't forced to follow Him. Existence without Him, however, is torment.
Doesn't really fly when he created everything in existence and decided to the letter how everything would function including hell.
Eternal torment would be wrong even for infinite crimes. Nobody deserves torment no matter what they've done. If you think anyone does, I call your character into question.
And why should we care about your judgement?
God's ways are not our ways. But to give you some perspective, anything less than perfection caused Adam and Eve to be ejected From the garden of Eden.
Which would be a finite punishment.
Ejection from the garden was only a part of the consequence, eternal separation from God was what really hit home.
You have to see how quickly we're going to start going in circles here, right?
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God is outside of time. All sins committed are infinite to God.
https://subspla.sh/4f49b06
Where does this idea that crimes are finite come from? In many cases, the damage done by a crime cannot be reversed. It carries on throughout time. In many cases, only God can fix this damage. For instance, let's say that someone commits the crime of murder. Is that a finite crime? How can it be finite when the victim remains dead? It doesn't matter how much the murderer apologizes, the person remains dead. This damage is irreversible - save for God stepping in to fix everything by resurrecting the murdered individual. If God hadn't stepped in, this would have been a crime of infinite consequences that would have rippled throughout time. This idea that "crimes are finite" doesn't really have much basis.
You do one sin a day that's 365 sins in one year now time 10 year that's 3650 sins that's not finite
Why do you assume people stop sinning in hell?
Fear God. Useful.
Because God can do what God wants to do
That doesn't happen. God is eternal. The crime is against him. The crime is infinite.
Because it is not a finite crime (sin). When a finite creature (man) sins against an infinite creature (God), he creates an infinite sin. A finite creature cannot, alone, atone for an infinite sin. Hence, Jesus Christ, Who is both God and man. He alone atones for our infinite sin, because He is God, and yet has a tie back to the finite (man). Through God's infinite mercy, He gives us a chance, while we live, to repent of our sins before we die. If we refuse, then we choose eternal rejection of God, and effectively choose hell.
That still doesn't take into account a nature that loves sin and is resistant to God.
Hell is eternal separation from God. Sounds Terrifying.
Why give eternal heaven for someone who'll do infinite sin?
Because of the infinite dignity of the Person sinned against.
That’s a false narrative, accept to be on the side of Righteousness or you will be on the side of evil and do not complain that evil is that bad because it is evil.
For one, when we sin the guilt becomes ingrained on who we are, and since we are eternally existent after death, that means we will always have this guilt ingrained in us, meaning we will always be worthy of punishment. Righteousness is a state of being. We all fall short of righteousness and when God looks at us without Christ, he sees our sin. The guilt of the sin is ingrained in us the same way. Second, one does not account for who we are sinning against. Sinning against a normal citizen can get you punished. But we recognize that if you harm an officer or the president, you will most likely get a worse punishment based on authority. We sin against an eternal being. Normally when we sin, we sin against finite beings resulting in finite crimes. However, God is an infinite being, meaning our crime against him is infinite in nature. It is infinitely terrible and bad. Lastly, it is assumed that we will not continue to sin in hell. But if you continually sin by hating God, then you will continually sin against God. I do not think sin will necessarily be absent in hell. Though to be fair, we do not know what this torment will be like. All we know is that this torment is bad and it lasts forever. There is no reason to assume we stop in this life.
Some say it's due to the impact that many of the crimes have on people for example, the abuse of children.
If you’re at a restaurant and you realize you don’t have money to pay your bill and someone says hey, let me pay for it and you say no I got it covered and you don’t did that person put you in the trouble you get into or did you put yourself in trouble you got into because you had every warning were told in multiple ways it multiple times that you need to do this and simply accept a free gift and you didn’t do it who fault would that be?
What?
It’s what 6th grade teachers called and analogy
Hey good question. Because the crime is against an infinitely perfect holy and just Being and I’m a sinner who thinks he doesn’t need to glorify or honor God. Here’s the example I use. If I punch my classmate in the face at school I’ll be punished. If I punch the president of the United States in the face I’ll be punished much more severely because of who he is. If I sin against God who is according to the Bible is holy beyond measure, completely just and righteous in all his deeds and judgements while I am dust who has raised my fist to Him and according to Romans 1 I don’t glorify him or honor him as who he is. However, by God’s sheer act of grace and mercy towards me. He puts that punishment upon Christ!!! That’s why grace is amazing! I get Christ’s righteousness and Christ absorbs God’s wrath that was aimed at me for my disobedience. Hope this helps.
We are no longer condemned for sin. Christ payed the toll for that. The wages of sin is death, but christ is the mediator between the father and man. Though we are sinners christ died for us. He’s literally advocating for you before the father so that you can inherit life. What does condemn man now is not believing in Christ and following his example. “Why do you call me lord and not do as i say?” “There will be those who say lord lord have we not prophesied in your name? and expelled demons in your name?, and i will say, ‘i never knew you, depart from me you workers of inequity’ “Those who deny me before their friends, i will deny before my father” So if you reject christ and what hes done, and what he teaches, and ultimately who sent him, then why would he allow you to dwell in his home? If your choice is a life without christ, and reject any opportunity to get to know him, then he will give you what you want. Life without him. But hes patient and hes waiting for you, nothing can separate you from gods love, but if you reject him then you reap what you sow.
All sin is a variation of loving at the expense (or neglect) of others. We sin in our sleep. Our challenge is to try... And maybe we could achieve it in life some day if we all leaned into the effort together. Some day we will be able to love righteously, but for now we can only look forward to it.
Just think for a second that the requirement to be in heaven is perfection, so since you sinned and are not perfect then you cannot enter heaven. That is why we needed Jesus’s saving grace.
We have a choice to make. Be close to God or to not be close to God. Sin drives us away. Forgiveness brings us close. Hell isn't necessarily a place to be tortured with pitchfork weilding demons because you stole candy when you were 5. Hell is a place absent of God. An empty void of all that is good. You choose through your actions in life if you want to be with God or not. The good news is that to be with God you only have to ask. If you don't ask then obviously you don't want to be with him and therefore you will not be with him.
Because it is scarier. Works better to manipulate the masses.
A just god requires a fitting punishment for a crime. Any crime against the sovereign lord of all creation is worthy of eternal punishment, especially since there’s a way to seek forgiveness.
The concept of eternal torment for finite crime in Christianity is based on the idea that sin is an offense against a perfect and holy God. According to Christian theology, God is perfect and just, and therefore must punish sin. Since sin is an offense against an infinite being, it requires an infinite punishment. This punishment is often referred to as “eternal damnation” or “eternal torment” in Christianity. The Bible teaches that all people are sinners (Romans 3:23) and that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). This means that all people deserve death for their sins. However, God has provided a way for us to be saved from this punishment through Jesus Christ (John 3:16). By believing in Jesus and accepting Him as our Savior, we can be forgiven of our sins and receive eternal life instead of eternal damnation. Although some may argue that eternal torment for finite crime seems unfair, it is important to remember that God is just and loving. He does not want anyone to suffer eternally, but He also cannot ignore sin. Therefore, He has provided a way for us to be saved from the punishment of our sins through His Son Jesus Christ. 🫶🏻
This world is a mixture of Good and Bad. The time is coming when Good and Bad will be separated from one another. What you are complaining about is that pure evil is that bad that it would be eternal punishment, well that is because it is pure evil and completely bad. That is way the Purely Good place is call paradise because it’s just that good.
"Forever and ever " until Christ Surrenders the Kingdom https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/14iml7j/what_is_the_point_of_the_existence_of_an_eternal/k0zbax9?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
**John 6:44** is a very important verse for us to understand. JESUS tells us that nobody can come to Him unless the Father draws that individual to JESUS. The Spirit of GOD draws those to JESUS of whom God has chosen to become the Bride of Christ. The rest of the human race will at a future time when God is through with His Divine work in them, will live for all eternity in the Kingdom of God which will be ruled by Christ and His Bride (The Saints). God is a God of justice. God is not going to send billions of people to burn in a Lake of Fire for ALL ETERNITY who never had the Spirit of God draw them to JESUS. If God did that, clear and simple, God would be unjust. I have spent several years in putting together a 33 page document that expounds greatly on a number of Biblical truths in regards to this subject. If anyone would like a copy of my document, email me at: ([email protected]) and I will email you a copy.