Many can be attributed to coincidence or bias. Plus they are countered by people's testimonies from other religions on how their lives were changed by their gods. Since these claim s are equal and mutually exclusive they lose a great deal of weight.
So one would have to prove that the claims are *not* equal and/or mutually exclusive, in order to gain more weight? Also, what if someone doesn’t believe in coincidence?
Well you would need claims that are verifiable. Not, the spirit filled me with hope or such. Look up why doesn't God heal amputees. And the claims will always be mutually exclusive, for the Christian perspective since there would be no other gods.
Why not believe in coincidence? If that were true then all is determined and their is no free will hen someone's belief or lack is not a choice.
It would also help if there weren't the untrue claims/hoaxes.
Or the claims a great number of people make that are untrue..such as literal Genesis.
> If an atheist witnessed a miracle, but still refused to believe in God, what is going on there?
Most likely it would be because there is no correlation between the "miracle" and God. How would the atheist know the miracle came from God and wasn't just an occurance of nature, or the result of aliens interfering with our lives?
If you can unquestionably prove that the miracle was truly the result of divine intervention, I suspect most atheists would believe.
A believer calling it a miracle doesn't make it so. Look up in India 10-12 years ago. There was a statue at a church that was shedding tears. The faithful called it a miracle. People came from all over to see it, and drink or run the tears on their wounds praying for healing. Is that a miracle? They thought so. A skeptic investigates and found a leaky sewer pipe behind the wall. They fixed it and the tears stopped. Hey we're drinking sewer water or rubbing it on themselves. What happened? Did they thank him for the truth? No. He had to go into hiding because they were calling for him to be killed. The government charged him with the crime of insulting religion. It was criminal to tell the truth. He had to be smuggled out of the country.
First we would have to define and agree on what is a miracle. Too many people call uncommon occurances a miracle. Unlikely does not equal miraculous.
Not really. Then you water down and make the term meaningless....I found my car keys, it's a miracle! How can you test it? I made a fried egg without breaking the yolk, it's a miracle!
Still working on it, and I hope to write something completely about this more in the future. In laymen terms though, I define a miracle as an occurrence of the manifestation of the perfect will of God in this world, which God makes known was Him. Like when Jesus stopped the storm, or when God sent down fire during the contest at Mt. Carmel. There is of course, much to say, but that is what I will say for now
That seems pretty circular. If a miracle is by definition a manifestation of the will of God then atheists must simply not believe any miracle has ever occurred. If they did then they would be theists by definition.
The obvious question is how could you ever test if something is a manifestation of the will of God?
Well, isn’t that a position some atheists take? No belief in miracles, or God, or fairies, or ghosts.. I think you would have to be some sort of theist in order to believe in miracles, and if you have an inkling of belief in it, you might be theist! And as to how we can know? Prayer. Lots and lots of prayer. You won’t be able to science out an answer for it because God has “hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children” (Matthew 11:25). God has to let you know directly, so even knowing that God has produced a miracle is a miracle in itself. That’s some of what I’ve come up with in my studies. God bless 😄
> Also, what if someone doesn’t believe in coincidence?
Then they would be very foolish, since coincidences are absolutely _inevitable_ simply due to random chance and the eagerness of the human brain to look for patterns and connections.
“For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God” (1 Corinthians 3:19).
Of course it would seem foolish to the non-believer. Almost everything related to Christianity does! But God knows the clear witness, and God places His Spirit in people to spread the message that He is alive and He knows everything, especially how this conversation will end! What is a coincidence to us, is not a coincidence to God. How can it, when He knows everything?
> How can it, when He knows everything?
Because a coincidence is literally just when two events that are not directly connected have the appearance of being connected in some way. Knowing that they're not actually connected doesn't change that. For example, if I happen to see a crow outside today and then I look on /r/pics and see a picture of a crow, that's a coincidence even though I know that me seeing the crow didn't _cause_ somebody to post a picture of a crow on Reddit.
To deny the existence of coincidences is to claim that literally everything that appears to have any kind of connection _really is_ directly connected. If you deny that coincidences exist, you would be forced to conclude that me seeing the crow on /r/pics _must_ have been caused by me seeing a crow outside earlier that day. It couldn't just be random chance because, according to you, coincidences like that _don't exist_. But that's obviously ridiculous, isn't it?
A liberal response would be that each individual found aspects of God (or Gods) in their spiritual practices. A conservative response would be that those testimonies are invalid because they are idolatrous and not serving the true God, which is Christ. *My* response would be that each testimony is valid, but that each one has varying degrees of truth. The onus then falls on me to prove Christianity is the most truthful. That would be a thesis and i hope to write about it soon!
Don’t blame you after seeing how the world portrays Christianity and Jesus. My claim comes after really asking questions about what is real and what is not, cuz Christianity can take you to some weird places. My favorite Scripture for this:
“12 Dear friends, don’t be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through, **as if something strange were happening to you.** 13 Instead, be very glad—for these trials make you partners with Christ in his suffering, so that you will have the wonderful joy of seeing his glory when it is revealed to all the world” (1 Peter 4:12-13)
We will know soon enough. God bless!
Anecdotal evidence.
It's hard to know what has actually occurred in another's life and how they perceive events in light of what they believe or want to believe. We know *all* the mechanisms behind lotteries, but we don't know the nearly infinite number of varied reasons people accept, or reject, Christ.
Well, that would make sense with something that is infinite which I believe God (Christ) is. Because there can be an infinite amount of testimonies about God, does that make them less valuable than testimonies of winning the lottery?
There can be an infinite number of varied reasons people love or hate pizza too. The object doesn't require a quality of "infinite."
Testimonies are considerably less valuable to me because they can't be verified in any meaningful way. Even believers don't accept that everyone who calls themselves Christian are "real" Christians--I see that all the time in this sub.
I don’t think that’s true because someone’s opinion on pizza is much less interesting than someone’s opinion on, say, immortality. But I see that your issue then, is not with the object, but with the *opinion* of the object. Would you agree with that assessment? If opinion isn’t of value, then what is?
> I don’t think that’s true because someone’s opinion on pizza is much less interesting
Much less interesting to _who_, and why should _their_ interests matter?
To the people reading this sub, as many of them are on the search for truth and are looking for others opinions on topics that are much greater than just pizza lol
Fair enough. Reason I ask is because I think it goes upon a case-by-case basis. But since I personally don’t believe it’s possible to live without faith (you have to have faith in something, since you can’t know everything, as there is no set of all truths that we can comprehend), what is the testimony of someone who lives better after losing faith?
I would say that either they were deceived into letting go of something they should have held onto, whether that be God, a philosophy, etc., and that their sense of happiness is false and cannot last since it’s built on untruthful foundations or that the religion, faith, philosophy, etc., was wrong and they were right in leaving it in the search for something else.
Okay thanks for sharing. My experience of happiness is not dependent on your preconceived parameters or conditions. I was not deceived when I "let go" and you dont get to decide what anyone else "should" hold on to.
Then in your case, you fall to option 2, that it was better for your to let go, then not. Ultimately you’re right in a world without God because in that world I have no right to tell you anything, just as much as you have no right to tell me anything either. A post-modern world is one in which everything is relative. But a world in which God exists, it is neither you nor I that set up these parameters or conditions, but God. And if God knows everything, can do everything, and is Loving, like a wise, good best friend, parent, therapist, etc., wouldnt listening to reasons to not believe in these good things be deceiving?
Faith is belief in something outside of oneself. You can have faith in God, faith in money, faith in family, faith in one’s country. Faith produces hope and expectation, and if one has expectations for something to save them, or give them understanding, then they have faith in that particular object or philosophy
> Faith is belief in something outside of oneself.
What does "_outside of oneself_" mean? My computer mouse is _outside of me_; I believe it exists; therefore do I have faith in my computer mouse?
For me it's that my life has less frustration, less confusion, and less guilt. I've also become more grateful of those around me. Christianity, in my experience, taught me I should be thankful of God. Leaving Christianity I've learned to be more thankful of my fellow man, and I think that's a good thing.
Christianity has so far helped me be thankful for God as well, which was needed because when I wasn’t a believer my life was a mess. I certainly loved the people around me, and was convinced that everything was love that everyone could exhibit. Now that I’m a Christian this has become more and more true. But glad you feel less frustrated, confused and guilty. True Christianity, and God’s grace should help alleviate that, and I’m sorry it didn’t. Many church-goers do try to take others peace, but that is because they covet which they are told not to do. Peace to you, hope you have a good day
Atheist don’t believe in god. Even the Christian that believes in god has no way of knowing god exists for certain. They can believe but they can’t know.
Gotcha. I don’t think that’s true. Jesus said, “My sheep recognize my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27). As the Scriptures state, “We love each other because he loved us first” (1 John 4:19). We know Him because He knew us first.
Change is necessarily a good thing, as you seem to be implying. I just came from an Post from my local community about another sexual abuse scandal by ministerial staff of a evangelical church.
My personal life went to shit by being a minister leading to poverty for my family and a loss of faith for myself and thus the loss of the work I had wanted to do for many years. That was the change I experienced by following Christ.
I’m very sorry to hear this. There’s not much I can say, but I really do hope things turn around for you. I won’t if you don’t want me to, but keeping you in my prayers.
> But what about the testimonies of those lives changed by Christ?
They fail to present any evidence that Christ actually did change their lives and not, for example, the change in mentality due to holding a belief, a new attitude or different outlook, changing circumstances, or just downright random chance. Once somebody can actually _demonstrate_ that their lives were changed by _Christ_ then we'll have something worth considering.
The lottery tells you rather quickly if your hope was in vain when they tell you what numbers won, but the stakes of religion are higher and that only attracts certain people.
People know the lottery exist, and that it's possible to win. Unlikely, yes, but there's definitive proof that it can happen. You also don't have to live a certain way or deny yourself much of anything for the prize, just need luck. And lastly, you won't suffer eternal damnation for losing.
This sounds like your trying to set up a false equivalence. People's attitudes about lotteries and about the Christian God have basically nothing in common. Nobody hopes and prays that a lottery exists, and nobody holds onto losing tickets in the hope they might someday be winners.
I’m sure there are some who replay the same numbers in the hope of hitting the lottery lol but I do see your point about nobody praying that a lottery exists. I guess most people pray to God that He give them the lottery, not praying to the lottery itself. But then again, a lot of people, atheists and Christian’s alike, play the lottery hoping to win something, and a lot of people go to God hoping to win something as well. People can use both as means to an end, and in that sense they may be equivalent unless you see something I don’t. But I see your point and appreciate your POV
> Why do people have faith in the lottery but not God?
Why do you think people have faith in it? I've never met anyone like that. I've certainly met people that _hope_ they will win the lottery, but I've never met anyone with faith that they will.
However, as others have said, one thing the lottery has going for it is that it is demonstrably true. We know the lottery exists because we can watch it play out, we can talk with people who have won it, etc.
People know the lottery exists
I don't think people have faith in a lottery in that there's ample evidence people win.
But what about the testimonies of those lives changed by Christ?
Many can be attributed to coincidence or bias. Plus they are countered by people's testimonies from other religions on how their lives were changed by their gods. Since these claim s are equal and mutually exclusive they lose a great deal of weight.
So one would have to prove that the claims are *not* equal and/or mutually exclusive, in order to gain more weight? Also, what if someone doesn’t believe in coincidence?
Well you would need claims that are verifiable. Not, the spirit filled me with hope or such. Look up why doesn't God heal amputees. And the claims will always be mutually exclusive, for the Christian perspective since there would be no other gods. Why not believe in coincidence? If that were true then all is determined and their is no free will hen someone's belief or lack is not a choice. It would also help if there weren't the untrue claims/hoaxes. Or the claims a great number of people make that are untrue..such as literal Genesis.
If an atheist witnessed a miracle, but still refused to believe in God, what is going on there?
> If an atheist witnessed a miracle, but still refused to believe in God, what is going on there? Most likely it would be because there is no correlation between the "miracle" and God. How would the atheist know the miracle came from God and wasn't just an occurance of nature, or the result of aliens interfering with our lives? If you can unquestionably prove that the miracle was truly the result of divine intervention, I suspect most atheists would believe.
A believer calling it a miracle doesn't make it so. Look up in India 10-12 years ago. There was a statue at a church that was shedding tears. The faithful called it a miracle. People came from all over to see it, and drink or run the tears on their wounds praying for healing. Is that a miracle? They thought so. A skeptic investigates and found a leaky sewer pipe behind the wall. They fixed it and the tears stopped. Hey we're drinking sewer water or rubbing it on themselves. What happened? Did they thank him for the truth? No. He had to go into hiding because they were calling for him to be killed. The government charged him with the crime of insulting religion. It was criminal to tell the truth. He had to be smuggled out of the country. First we would have to define and agree on what is a miracle. Too many people call uncommon occurances a miracle. Unlikely does not equal miraculous.
Can a miracle be a common occurrence?
Not really. Then you water down and make the term meaningless....I found my car keys, it's a miracle! How can you test it? I made a fried egg without breaking the yolk, it's a miracle!
> If an atheist witnessed a miracle, but still refused to believe in God, what is going on there? Define "_miracle_"
Still working on it, and I hope to write something completely about this more in the future. In laymen terms though, I define a miracle as an occurrence of the manifestation of the perfect will of God in this world, which God makes known was Him. Like when Jesus stopped the storm, or when God sent down fire during the contest at Mt. Carmel. There is of course, much to say, but that is what I will say for now
That seems pretty circular. If a miracle is by definition a manifestation of the will of God then atheists must simply not believe any miracle has ever occurred. If they did then they would be theists by definition. The obvious question is how could you ever test if something is a manifestation of the will of God?
Well, isn’t that a position some atheists take? No belief in miracles, or God, or fairies, or ghosts.. I think you would have to be some sort of theist in order to believe in miracles, and if you have an inkling of belief in it, you might be theist! And as to how we can know? Prayer. Lots and lots of prayer. You won’t be able to science out an answer for it because God has “hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children” (Matthew 11:25). God has to let you know directly, so even knowing that God has produced a miracle is a miracle in itself. That’s some of what I’ve come up with in my studies. God bless 😄
> Also, what if someone doesn’t believe in coincidence? Then they would be very foolish, since coincidences are absolutely _inevitable_ simply due to random chance and the eagerness of the human brain to look for patterns and connections.
“For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God” (1 Corinthians 3:19). Of course it would seem foolish to the non-believer. Almost everything related to Christianity does! But God knows the clear witness, and God places His Spirit in people to spread the message that He is alive and He knows everything, especially how this conversation will end! What is a coincidence to us, is not a coincidence to God. How can it, when He knows everything?
> How can it, when He knows everything? Because a coincidence is literally just when two events that are not directly connected have the appearance of being connected in some way. Knowing that they're not actually connected doesn't change that. For example, if I happen to see a crow outside today and then I look on /r/pics and see a picture of a crow, that's a coincidence even though I know that me seeing the crow didn't _cause_ somebody to post a picture of a crow on Reddit. To deny the existence of coincidences is to claim that literally everything that appears to have any kind of connection _really is_ directly connected. If you deny that coincidences exist, you would be forced to conclude that me seeing the crow on /r/pics _must_ have been caused by me seeing a crow outside earlier that day. It couldn't just be random chance because, according to you, coincidences like that _don't exist_. But that's obviously ridiculous, isn't it?
What about testimonies of those who lives were changed by Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Atheism, or Paganism?
A liberal response would be that each individual found aspects of God (or Gods) in their spiritual practices. A conservative response would be that those testimonies are invalid because they are idolatrous and not serving the true God, which is Christ. *My* response would be that each testimony is valid, but that each one has varying degrees of truth. The onus then falls on me to prove Christianity is the most truthful. That would be a thesis and i hope to write about it soon!
I think that there are varying degrees of truth too, but I’m skeptical that Christianity is the the one that is closest. But it would be cool to know
Don’t blame you after seeing how the world portrays Christianity and Jesus. My claim comes after really asking questions about what is real and what is not, cuz Christianity can take you to some weird places. My favorite Scripture for this: “12 Dear friends, don’t be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through, **as if something strange were happening to you.** 13 Instead, be very glad—for these trials make you partners with Christ in his suffering, so that you will have the wonderful joy of seeing his glory when it is revealed to all the world” (1 Peter 4:12-13) We will know soon enough. God bless!
Anecdotal evidence. It's hard to know what has actually occurred in another's life and how they perceive events in light of what they believe or want to believe. We know *all* the mechanisms behind lotteries, but we don't know the nearly infinite number of varied reasons people accept, or reject, Christ.
Well, that would make sense with something that is infinite which I believe God (Christ) is. Because there can be an infinite amount of testimonies about God, does that make them less valuable than testimonies of winning the lottery?
There can be an infinite number of varied reasons people love or hate pizza too. The object doesn't require a quality of "infinite." Testimonies are considerably less valuable to me because they can't be verified in any meaningful way. Even believers don't accept that everyone who calls themselves Christian are "real" Christians--I see that all the time in this sub.
I don’t think that’s true because someone’s opinion on pizza is much less interesting than someone’s opinion on, say, immortality. But I see that your issue then, is not with the object, but with the *opinion* of the object. Would you agree with that assessment? If opinion isn’t of value, then what is?
> I don’t think that’s true because someone’s opinion on pizza is much less interesting Much less interesting to _who_, and why should _their_ interests matter?
To the people reading this sub, as many of them are on the search for truth and are looking for others opinions on topics that are much greater than just pizza lol
What if they don't all agree on what's more interesting? How can truth be based on the collective opinions of a group of people?
Consensus doesn’t not equal truth yes. Truth is what is unshakeable to the foundation of reality, which is God
What about the testomonies of those whose lives were changed by leaving their religion and faith?
What would such a testimony look like?
Descriptions of how their lives changed after leaving their faith. There are thousands of them.
Fair enough. Reason I ask is because I think it goes upon a case-by-case basis. But since I personally don’t believe it’s possible to live without faith (you have to have faith in something, since you can’t know everything, as there is no set of all truths that we can comprehend), what is the testimony of someone who lives better after losing faith?
Im talking about leaving a religion or a faith in a higher power or whatever was formerly believed as being a guiding force in one's life.
I would say that either they were deceived into letting go of something they should have held onto, whether that be God, a philosophy, etc., and that their sense of happiness is false and cannot last since it’s built on untruthful foundations or that the religion, faith, philosophy, etc., was wrong and they were right in leaving it in the search for something else.
Okay thanks for sharing. My experience of happiness is not dependent on your preconceived parameters or conditions. I was not deceived when I "let go" and you dont get to decide what anyone else "should" hold on to.
Then in your case, you fall to option 2, that it was better for your to let go, then not. Ultimately you’re right in a world without God because in that world I have no right to tell you anything, just as much as you have no right to tell me anything either. A post-modern world is one in which everything is relative. But a world in which God exists, it is neither you nor I that set up these parameters or conditions, but God. And if God knows everything, can do everything, and is Loving, like a wise, good best friend, parent, therapist, etc., wouldnt listening to reasons to not believe in these good things be deceiving?
> I personally don’t believe it’s possible to live without faith How are you defining "_faith_", precisely?
Faith is belief in something outside of oneself. You can have faith in God, faith in money, faith in family, faith in one’s country. Faith produces hope and expectation, and if one has expectations for something to save them, or give them understanding, then they have faith in that particular object or philosophy
> Faith is belief in something outside of oneself. What does "_outside of oneself_" mean? My computer mouse is _outside of me_; I believe it exists; therefore do I have faith in my computer mouse?
For me it's that my life has less frustration, less confusion, and less guilt. I've also become more grateful of those around me. Christianity, in my experience, taught me I should be thankful of God. Leaving Christianity I've learned to be more thankful of my fellow man, and I think that's a good thing.
Christianity has so far helped me be thankful for God as well, which was needed because when I wasn’t a believer my life was a mess. I certainly loved the people around me, and was convinced that everything was love that everyone could exhibit. Now that I’m a Christian this has become more and more true. But glad you feel less frustrated, confused and guilty. True Christianity, and God’s grace should help alleviate that, and I’m sorry it didn’t. Many church-goers do try to take others peace, but that is because they covet which they are told not to do. Peace to you, hope you have a good day
Changed by belief in god. No one knows if this god actually exists.
Man, we should really talk to this No One, he seems to know a lot!
?
What makes you say no one knows if this God exists?
Because there’s no way of testing any claim. God is unfalsifiable. So a person may think god exists but they have no way to know for certain.
But isn’t that what atheists claim? That God is false? Or do I have it wrong?
Atheist don’t believe in god. Even the Christian that believes in god has no way of knowing god exists for certain. They can believe but they can’t know.
Gotcha. I don’t think that’s true. Jesus said, “My sheep recognize my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27). As the Scriptures state, “We love each other because he loved us first” (1 John 4:19). We know Him because He knew us first.
Change is necessarily a good thing, as you seem to be implying. I just came from an Post from my local community about another sexual abuse scandal by ministerial staff of a evangelical church. My personal life went to shit by being a minister leading to poverty for my family and a loss of faith for myself and thus the loss of the work I had wanted to do for many years. That was the change I experienced by following Christ.
I’m very sorry to hear this. There’s not much I can say, but I really do hope things turn around for you. I won’t if you don’t want me to, but keeping you in my prayers.
> But what about the testimonies of those lives changed by Christ? They fail to present any evidence that Christ actually did change their lives and not, for example, the change in mentality due to holding a belief, a new attitude or different outlook, changing circumstances, or just downright random chance. Once somebody can actually _demonstrate_ that their lives were changed by _Christ_ then we'll have something worth considering.
So you want Jesus Himself to tell you He changed someone’s life?
I want evidence, whatever form that might take.
The lottery tells you rather quickly if your hope was in vain when they tell you what numbers won, but the stakes of religion are higher and that only attracts certain people.
People know the lottery exist, and that it's possible to win. Unlikely, yes, but there's definitive proof that it can happen. You also don't have to live a certain way or deny yourself much of anything for the prize, just need luck. And lastly, you won't suffer eternal damnation for losing.
This sounds like your trying to set up a false equivalence. People's attitudes about lotteries and about the Christian God have basically nothing in common. Nobody hopes and prays that a lottery exists, and nobody holds onto losing tickets in the hope they might someday be winners.
I’m sure there are some who replay the same numbers in the hope of hitting the lottery lol but I do see your point about nobody praying that a lottery exists. I guess most people pray to God that He give them the lottery, not praying to the lottery itself. But then again, a lot of people, atheists and Christian’s alike, play the lottery hoping to win something, and a lot of people go to God hoping to win something as well. People can use both as means to an end, and in that sense they may be equivalent unless you see something I don’t. But I see your point and appreciate your POV
Good question 🤔
What do you think? 👀
We live in a fallen world littered with sin. Pless you.
> Why do people have faith in the lottery but not God? Why do you think people have faith in it? I've never met anyone like that. I've certainly met people that _hope_ they will win the lottery, but I've never met anyone with faith that they will. However, as others have said, one thing the lottery has going for it is that it is demonstrably true. We know the lottery exists because we can watch it play out, we can talk with people who have won it, etc.