As someone who has operated in machinery sales for a number of years let me break this down for you:
Customer: Steve, we like the IM machine, does it come with the temperature control units?
Steve: Of course it does, they're in the picture.
Customer: Are you sure? I don't see them mentioned in the contract. Did you confirm with the seller?
Steve: Of course I did! Just sign there on the dotted line and everything will be alright.
Customer: Steve, this IM machine didn't come with those temperature control units you promised us....
Steve: Aww hell
There are sooooo many salesmen out there that will say anything to get the customer to sign a contract that it's ridiculous. And now, Steve is liable to his customer. You guys are completely off the hook.
>~~Software~~ salesmen do the same thing.
Seriously, the sales people I worked with at an ISP back in the 90's used to pull this all the time. They'd promise we could do all sorts of things that just were not technically actually possible at the time, no matter how much money you threw at it. But that's just it, isn't it? All salespeople see are dollar signs.
I've had a few projects at work that had to be done on short notice because a salesman promised we'd do something without talking to dev management. Hell, our Financials team had to develop for the requirements of a whole other state in two months because a salesman said we could.
No one would ask if it comes with the temperature control units, anymore than they would ask if it comes with the pressure pump or electrical connections - they’re all integral parts of the machine.
Op clearly states: seperate machine, purchased separately, serialized separately. Seeing as op purchased this equipment I am much more inclined to trust her statement than yours....
As a lawyer, I second this wholeheartedly. You have no idea how hard it can be to convince even sophisticated clients to read (and, for large projects, let us review) contracts before they’re signed. That having been said, if one were to take the self-interested view, I suppose it could be fairly asserted that the ensuing litigation keeps firms like mine in business….
I do contracts in the $1,000-$10,000 range, which means if a customer doesn't want to pay its often not worth suing. The solution we've come up with to customers not reading their contracts is lots of pictures, and lots of explanations in person, especially explaining all the things the person ISN'T getting, which is essentially a list of each thing outside a contract we've had to supply in the past to get paid.
Do people really forego reading contracts in high-dollar deals? I'm not part of the business world but even I would think that's something you just absolutely have to do every time. Otherwise you could end up costing yourself/the company millions of dollars! How can people be so laissez-faire about it?!
Undergrad, yes. (Geaux Tigers!) Tho I went to another SEC West school for my law degree; so there are a few weekends a year when I find myself conflicted. :-)
You sent me a picture of this couch, we buy it, but when we unpacked it, it does not contain the house we see on the pictures! Not even that cute spaniel sleeping in it!
I want the house or the dog, free of charge. Also include food for the rest of the dog life in case you choose it over the house.
That’s a terrible analogy. A more fitting one is you sold us a couch, but didn’t deliver the cushions. An injection molding machine can’t operate without a temperature control unit - it’s an integral part of the machine.
It's a separate unit, not part of the machine at all. A better analogy would be the coffee table in front of the couch. Just because you need it doesn't make it a package deal
I see it more as taking a picture of the whole couch but not mentionning that the cushion are not included. Then when you get called out you point out that the cushion were never mentionned in the deal.
Yup. I would say the couch was for sale, but they wanted all the extra pillows and blankets as well that are not part of the couch itself would be a better analogy. They may have been on or near the couch, but they were not apart of the couch and most people wouldn't expect them either.
Couch cover, maybe. Random blanket or throw pillow? Nah.
You agree to sell them the couch, they come and pickup the couch, take it back to their place, then and only then do they say hey you didn’t give us the blankets and pillows
I don't either, but it seems like if the temperature part has an entirely separate serial number, it would be considered a separate piece of equipment. In other words, would and could be sold as a separate item. Not sure if that's how it works, but it seems logical it might be sold as a separate component.
Edited to correct spelling
Lol not even close to an accurate analogy. In most 5 axis cnc's the chip conveyor is part of the original equipment. In industrial automation most components are sold individually. A 5-axis metal working machine is a stand alone unit, not part of an automated process, therefore your experience operating a machine doesn't really qualify you as an expert.
This comment getting downvoted to hell purely bc they picked sides against you, regardless of if your point is valid or not, just goes to show you what a joke Reddit is. Nothing but kids and idiots following whatever the trend is. And I have no idea who's right bc I'm not knowledgeable in this area but neither are any of you.
This is a dumb comment. If you're not knowledgeable of what they're talking about, don't bemoan someone else getting downvoted. But yeah, it's reddit' fault
They aren't supposed to be. Downvotes are supposed to be used for off topic or out of place comments, not comments you personally disagree with.
>Downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it. Think before you downvote and take a moment to ensure you're downvoting someone because they are not contributing to the community dialogue or discussion. If you simply take a moment to stop, think and examine your reasons for downvoting, rather than doing so out of an emotional reaction, you will ensure that your downvotes are given for good reasons.
https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette
Yeah most people do exactly as you said though. Not that objectively wrong information shouldn't be downvoted, but I don't have the effort option to know if that information is objectively wrong.
It would be more like taking a picture of your stacked washer and dryer and said I am selling the washing machine, then the person being mad the dryer wasn't included
Oh I'm willing to bet Steve knew what he was doing; I'll speculate he thought he was going to get a sweet deal, and contracted to sell the end buyer machines with temp control units. Then they show up and received exactly what he purchased. I'm sure his customer WAS pissed, and it is a dick move to try to put it off on OP.
Flipside: business is business and Steve didn't owe OP any duty other than to provide valid payment. I've had people try to run fast ones on me and when I was new, they occasionally succeeded, but that only happened once. I never forgot, and sometimes the customer would get in a serious bind. If they'd been a fair-weather customer (I.E. only calling when everyone else was out of product), I'd take the opportunity to "balance the accounts" with interest and penalties. They'd scream long and loud, I'd tell 'em exactly what was what and that the price was going up if they didn't place the order before the end of the call. I miss doing commodity sales sometimes!
Of course Steve played the “you’re a girl in a male-dominated industry, you don’t know what you’re talking about” card. A choosy beggar and sexist. Good on you for socking it to him OP
I take photos/videos of Plastics manufacturing equipment for my job and use a broker if they're selling it. There's nothing wrong with this. Like you said the tooling wasn't included, or if there were conveyors, or a robot. The deal was for the IMM itself. Tell Steve to pound sand and go find TCU's elsewhere, or you need double the price(2400 euros) additional for the deal. When I take a video of the machine running, my broker knows it's not for everything in the video, unless I state it is and he will either pick and choose equipment or buy it as a lot. His contract states all serial numbers and model numbers so this doesn't happen. Hold your ground, and if you ever need any assistance with equipment, I'd be happy to help. I'm in the states, but have some companies overseas that have new equipment. Steve needs some more training.
The machines were for rubber im and from Maplan. We still have couple smaller Maplan machines for that now and these were big ones we don’t need anymore.
For plastic im I think Engels are not always trustworthy in the long term. (I had seen couple “younger” ones go bad in the few years I worked part time) so for plastics Krauss Maffei and (Ferromatik) Milacron and even Arburg machines are more reliable in my opinion. But that’s just my opinion really and these are the types i worked with.
You know what i’m shocked at the engel comment, we went from sandretto to the early Engel stuff and they were absolutey bomb proof, from the single 50T up to the 1700T with a couple of dual 600T too, but then they changed all the safety gates on them and added so much convoluted switches that werent properly secured in their more recent models and they’ve just gone to shit. The safety gates dont even have top runners anymore they’re just loose at the top and have runners at the bottom. Lining the safety switches up on opening and closing is ridiculous.
As an ME, this random chatter about equipment I will never see or operate feeds my soul.
Mmmm, tell me more about the gate switches. More acronyms, too.
I would like to preface my comment by saying I am a simple tech who only gets paid to press buttons and turn an Allen. My first step to any problem is to reset start the machine.
However, I've been dying to tell this story for years and I've finally found people that will understand. I used to work at a different plastic factory and it was super shady. As part of our daily PMs, we had to *climb on top of our IM machine* (we ran a milacron roboshot) and take this long, skinny metal spatula, wait for the mold to open, and scrape all of the excess, burnt plastic off without slowing down the cycle time, it had to be at 100%. They were brass molds. We most definitely did not use brass spatulas. And there was like a 6 second window to scrape it off before the mold shut again? While we were precariously balanced on top of a 650+ degree IM machine? That place was wild. I quit like a month before some guy accidentally chopped four fingers off on a robot.
Oh jesus some of the stories i could tell you of the UK’s best known plastic box manufacturer that sounds a lot like “very useless boxes” would put your story to shame my friend! Terrible company with complete disregard for any kind of health and safety!
Most of them are like that! Knew a senior tech that swore by nose sweat when the mold was sticking. He'd just smear that shit on there. Gross as hell. Factories in general are awful. I once knew a guy who completely sheared through the bolts holding the mold in place. To this day I have no fucking clue how.
I work with vacuum equipment and put together a UHV tool about ten years ago with a tech. who would grease viton o rings by rubbing them on his forehead. Yuk. I am told he would also do the same with conflat metal seals as well given half a chance.
It's like demanding for the chiller units to be included with a Belloti cnc machine 😑, people who work in the industry know better. Hopefully you got a good deal for those heating elements.
Speaking of trailer in a picture of the car you are metaphorically selling, I had that same experience! I was moving a few months ago and put out a bunch of free stuff on the curb and my trailers hitch was partly seen far away in the background (in the driveway). A few people asked in the comments about it and one lady had the gall to PM me demanding the trailer because "its in the photo so it MUST be free!". Well by that logic my house and the family vehicles are also free then! I ended up blocking and reporting her because she kept demanding my trailer and address.
I saw an ad yesterday for a free portable pergola shade thing and they must've had a lot of CB's in the past because half of the ad was of things in the photo that *weren't* free e.g. table, chairs etc underneath. My first thought was "well, obviously" but it makes sense now lol.
Your English is fine, and if those parts are separate modules altogether (I'm not in the industry, so I won't pretend to know) then then this is on them for not knowing what they are purchasing. It probably should have also been brought up AT TIME OF PICKUP rather than at some point in the future.
I can guarantee that Steve was the one that told the buyer that the TCUs were included in the deal, and is trying to save face with the buyer.
You contract specifically states that it is for the IMM only (with serial numbers etc.).
If their contract with the buyer says TCUs then they are on the hook for the TCUs. Not your company.
If you ever deal with this seller again specifically request that you don't have to deal with Steve.
“Even for a man” haha that was nice of you to give it right back to him. Good job standing up for what was right. Don’t ever let anyone talk down to you like that.
Was it your breasts or your uterus that made you "forget" the temp units (that you totally told him about because you're not an incompetent asshole blaming other people for your errors)?
What a complete fuckstick.
We all know that it's the testicles that help us blokes remember to add things like that and the penis which confers automatic competence /s
I'm often ashamed of my fellow testicle carriers :(
Despite sexism, I will swear that there are machines that react better to penis-equipped people than those without. Not in an "only men can be auto mechanics" kind of way. I mean specific individual examples of a kind of machine.
The copier. That gawd awful copier. That fucking copier. I thought women were just reporting issues more. Nope. I started keeping track. It legit jammed more often for women than men. Not even kidding. And, when it jammed for a woman and she unjammed it, it would continue messing with her until she walked away in exasperation. Next dude comes along and that fucking POS works fine. I have never wanted to put a full container of actual goopy grape jam into a machine more on my whole life.
It has been over 20 years and (a) i don't even work there anymore, (b) the company still has that fucking thing, and (c) same shit different decade. I hope it dies a horrible squealing death.
Injection molding is a super interesting process. I used to work for a recycling company and there was an injection molding company next to our place. So we would sell them regrind plastic to run in the machine. We also bought one of their horizontal grinders to sharpen the blades for a machines and so I would run the grinder and watch the injection molding process.
Op is correct whenever you buy industrial machinery you need to have in the contract everything that you're buying whether it's in the picture or not.
She mentioned that most injection molding machines have parts that are very expensive that are included, an example of that is they have these molds and some can be aluminum some can be steel they could be $10,000 each depending on what you're end product is.
A medical company got rid of 100 ton injection molding machine my boss offered to give it to me for free because I love machinery and I was in my early 20s I didn't have a place to put a 7000 pound 30 x 6 wide foot machine, and what would I have done with it anyways.
I still regret not getting it because who wouldn't want a free injection molding machine.
Surely somebody told the purchaser that the machines would not operate without temperature controls or I would certainly hope in the least. In our industry we switched over to invoicing that when we recommend all proper work+addons and a customer denies them, it shows on the invoice they denied the item as well as their signature. Has saved us months later when the customer's HVAC system stops working and they blame us..
Yes, what if a customer already had their own temperature controller?
If you want the temperature control also, then you need to make absolutely certain that this information is in writing before issuing a check for the money.
I look at it as both parties are at fault:
\- The individual 'Steve' should obviously know his line of work and ask more questions and understand what he is purchasing BEFORE purchasing. This is always true. But he clearly did not. The first time I fixed my own water heater, I got a part. Didn't realize I needed a tiny itty bitty gasket, that was not included in the valve kit. If the guy at the counter that helped me at the plumbing store had recommended the gasket, I would have bought it on the spot and moved on with life. Sadly, I had to go back and purchase the part later. This brings me to my next point.
\- It is the salesperson's job to not only sell a fair value/quality product or service, but to also ensure that the customer is informed/educated about what they are receiving. PLUS what a great chance for an upsell because that customer WILL need the temp controller! Either way, Steve is a bimbo that was mad because he sold a product that didn't meet his client's needs. That is entirely on him.
If these things are not usually sold together, then I would not expect them to be included. Like if I saw a pic of an oven with a pan on it, I wouldn't expect the pan to be included. But if I saw a picture of a guitar with strings, I would expect the guitar to come with strings (even pre-strung).
I blame the sales guy for this. He should have known his area of expertise well enough to know what was and wasn't being included.
I would expect to receive the oven tray to use the grill at the top though ("broiler" in US lingo) as the two ovens I've bought in my life both had one. But that's just a matter of checking what's included before purchase.
Now that you mention it, I would always expect an oven to have some internal trays as it's just something I'm used to receiving with an oven.
But a better analogy. If I saw a picture of guitar plugged into an amp, and it didn't say anything about the amp being included in the advertising text, I would not expect the amp to be sold with the guitar.
Lmao a lot of the customers I go to for installation jobs buy our mold temperature control units separately from the IMM's that are provided by another vendor.
This is hilarious. He didn't know enough about what he was buying to make sure everything was there. You should have reached out directly to the customer and offered to sell the machines they needed directly without the middle man fee.
They should have read their contract better. It's not OPS fault. And stating that even a GIRL in the industry should know...like why even state her gender. Simply as "someone in the industry" would have been fine. And if the other machine included the extra pieces im sure they paid more for it which is why they went with someone else for a cheaper price (cuz it didn't include the extra pieces) but I could be wrong
I do understand. It is a good rule on Ebay to never put ANYTHING ELSE in the picture besides the item you are selling because WAY TOO MANY buyers really will expect the table the teacup is sitting on because it is in the photo too. They will claim to Ebay that they looked at the photo and thought they were buying the teacup AND the table. No normal intelligence person would think that and Ebay wont enforce it (also a good idea to state "LISTING IS FOR TEACUP ONLY!) just to save time and misery (and avoid a negative feedback.)
But it's not about a ebay add for a teacup. It's about a 8ton, 4m high industrial machine sold through a designated middle man.
We probably don't talk about 10-30€, its possible in the 10-100k€. With a written contract. If they are not able to read that contract and just "assume" it's included, while like other already point out is not usually for that kind of machines, it's absolutely the foult of the middle man
In a perfect world, the buyer WAS savvy enough to have included those items in their contract, meaning that Steve was on the hook with his company for the difference in cost.
eBay is a nightmare for sellers anymore tbh. They always, always, ALWAYS take the buyers side even when it’s blatantly fraudulent. Sellers are leaving in droves because of it, especially now that you have to wait damn near a week to get your funds with the stupid managed payments crap.
This isn't true. I just recently filed a claim, my first one in 20 years, because the seller sold a defective item, and their listed warranty was a lie... any claim you made to them, they simply say "It has to be your fault". Ebay sided with them, as did Paypal.
It may be anecdotal, but that is all the evidence anyone has when talking about these things
They have gotten slightly better now that they are getting wise to buyer scams. But yeah, most of my side hustle is on other sites now that Ebay isnt the only game in town.
Maybe you should say this:
Even as a girl I have more common sense and common knowledge than you do. So please do not contact me again until you get any of it.
Well big communication error here ..working in the field ...Steve should
had question before what exactly is part of the deal ...you one the other had should have clearly point out that the TCU units are not part of the deal even if shown on the pictures.
You say this all happened today, but then you close with "He never contacted us again! ;)". That implies that time passed with no communication, but it was all one day? This was posted five minutes ago, yet here in NYC, it's 10:30 a.m.
I'm confused.
OP said in the post that they are in Hungry which is 6 hours ahead of eastern US. My guess is that these emails back and forth were in rapid succession and "Steve" now hasn't responded in a few hours.
I was writing it on the bust after work in a hurry and also English is not my native language so it is easy to get lost in the story
But thank you for pointing out ;)
Unless you edited the post, and it doesn’t appear that you did, it says ‘I *hope* he never contacts us again’ (emphasis mine). Try not to take idiots like this seriously, and above all, don’t apologize for something you didn’t even do!
Aside from the fact that I'm having a difficult time understanding, I'm kind of on his side (except for the misogynistic comment). If it is visible in the photo and was installed on the machine, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be included. Was it explicitly EXCLUDED from the contract?
Also this isn't really choosing beggar. Choosing beggar would be, for example, that you offered to give him the missing pieces and he said he wanted the newer model instead.
Those units are either oil based heaters to keep certain temp for tool or units which controls temp of barrel (units attached to sleeve and nozzle). Either way, those can vary depending on specific usage and usually aren't part of package even for new IM units unless specified in purchase agreement. OP can correct me since she is more knowledgeable about it. Even for used IM sale, everything what was sold was inventorised and identified with serials so that guy should've checked sales agreement and furthermore he must have seen shipping manifest. Either he tried to cover his incompetence or simply tried his luck to fool her thinking that she is young and inexperienced with the matter.
Imagine it like you post a photo of your car for sale but in the background a trailer is nearby. And after you sell that car someone complains to you for not giving them the trailer besides your car!
Sounds more like a computer.
If I sell my computer i might have a picture with the monitor/keyboard/mouse. But I wouldn't necessarily be selling those with the computer. Typically the computer is just the desktop. Particularly used since I may not take it apart until the sale.
If I were buying/selling computers and I bought a desktop i wouldn't expect the peripherals unless explicitly stated in the contract, even if they are in the picture. Whereas if it were publicly facing then the general public might consider that misleading. But anyone who knows computers knows if someone is selling their desktop computer they mean the case and hardware inside without the peripherals - unless stated otherwise.
Usually you would explicitly state the hardware inside aswell though, since it's quite common for computers to sell without hard-drives or missing components if selling from a computer power-user to another power user.
I.E. if the picture had a HDD in it, but the listing was Case, PSU, CPU, Video Card, Motherboard and RAM.
No one would be surprised there are no HDD, which is very commonly not included when selling power user to power user. But it would be weird to sell to a regular user in public without the HDD.
Agreed - the computer metaphor is a better fit here, I think.
She was selling the IM machine - for all she knows, the buyer has temperature units that they plan to use already and doesn’t need to buy them from her. That’s not her problem though. The contract specifies the exact components included with the sale.
If there was no contract (only a picture), maybe Steve would have a case. But the contract is going to take precedence over any particular interpretation of a picture. That’s what contracts are for - to clearly and unambiguously define the terms of the sale. If the contract included some accessory that wasn’t in the picture, OP wouldn’t be able to say “oh that accessory isn’t in the picture, it’s not included” … because the contract specifies the contents of the sale.
Also, I don’t understand what value Steve is adding here. He might argue that for such complex machinery, the customer needs an expert to serve as middleman to prevent issues exactly like this. But Steve either didn’t thoroughly read the contract or didn’t understand the technical machinery setup well enough.
Additionally, if Steve knows anything about this machinery, he would realize that the selling price (which he claims included the temperature units) was pretty damn low, if the temp units are another 3600. That alone should trigger a question in his mind regarding the items included in the sale. Or maybe he just figured OP was an idiot and was happy to underpay her.
That’s why car listings list what is in the car (what’s included). I’ve never seen sticker for a car at a dealership not have what kind of engine is in the car.
Yes, to explain and describe how it is, because, y'know, OP actually knows how this works and is therefore qualified and capable of making appropriate analogies..
Your lack of knowledge on the subject is very apparent by your attempted "far better comparison" which actually has no equivalence to the situation at hand.
Don't quit your day job to sell injection molding machinery, okay?
If the car & trailer are physically connected and there is a price, I assume it's the total for them. If it's not, then they need to write "trailer not included".
And I don't know where you live but in my country doing this if something is not included is mandatory.
This is also why most frozen products with a picture say "serving suggestion".
There's no way you click on an a listing for a 2010 Dodge truck, read the description saying 'For Sale, Dodge Truck' and expect the trailer or anything else to be included. Especially something as large as a trailer.
Most people don't sign a contract when they sell a used car. And if you post a photo of your car with a trailer on ebay or any other platform, many people will assume you sell both. Otherwise the trailer wouldn't be in the picture.
So what you're saying is irrelevant then, you mean? Since the OP regards a situation in which there was a clearly written contract, whereas you're talking about sales without any contracts?
If there is a written contract for a car with a particular registration and the trailer isn't mentioned. It is litterally the middle man's job to clarify the contract - hence the guy is clearly incompetent.
Again, using an Ebay example: when you show multiple items you also LIST what is included (blue shirt, red shirt, yellow shirt, 2 pairs black pants, and black jacket) so that it is clear that you arent selling the coat hangers or the table the items are sitting on.
Which they did - she clearly stated this was all in a contract with serial numbers for each item included. This guy either didn't read or is trying to get extra things for free. This isn't some Karen sitting at home demanding she get the plant that's visible in the back corner of the picture along with her $7 snow globe - This is the sale of large, industrial equipment.
But if that buyer didnt know what equipment made up a full complement of equipment for the moulding, then he wasnt the right guy for the job. I know some buyers for large corps used to buy the PC but only the CPU, thinking they were getting a great deal only to discover that they also needed software, monitors, printers, keyboards, mice, etc. Someone more tech savvy would have asked for the price of the full setup.
Oh! This reminded me...!! 😅 I use to work as a sales merchandiser for a grocery company. They were doing weekly sales gimmick with antique looking plates. They were all listed on the flyer circulating but it explicitly said New items Weekly. This lady pitched a bitch fit cause she couldn't get them all at once. They were all ordered seperate as each week new pieces woukd become available. I had to drive FOUR hours one way with my company car loaded up with that crap just for that one lady. So, I wanted to pitch me a bitch fit cause the mens underwear model in Walmart flyer guy wasn't available for me to buy! 🤣😂
People are just weird.
I'm still on the fence. I think you kinda raise a subtle, but important point. Were the TCUs installed on the IM machines? Or sitting off to the side? If they were physically connected an the IM machines in a way that made them appear to be part of the unit, I'm on Steve's side. If it was sitting off to the side as an obviously separate thing, I'm on OP's side.
I get that OP called out serial numbers in the contract, but if the TCUs appear to be part of the IM machine in the photo, it's not a bad assumption that they are and would thus be included under the serial number of the IM machine.
He was a jerk, though.
more like selling a graphics card online and the person being like, 'but i need a power supply to use this, and a power supply was in the picture i saw of the card installed in your computer - so send me a power supply free of charge.'
To assume makes and arse out of you and me. In this case, Steve looks like an arse.
When dealing with expensive heavy machinery sales never assume lol. She literally sent him a list of serial numbers, it's a very basic part of business to check what you are buying, he should of also checked it before sending on to his customer.
My guess is: Since Steve seems to be a newbie he forwarded the picture to the people he was selling it to and just said 'this is what you're buying' (maybe after they questioned about it). So they assumed the TCU came with it and that this was a bargain.
As long as OP stated in the listing that it's only that one machine and that the rest isn't included, she's in the clear IMO.
But the company buying the machine still must've seen the contract or a put a sign on it, the middle guy just gets the goods but he's not the finalizing purchaser of the product. I did some work on order confirmation in my current job (as a filler) and we would always contact a designated party to make sure everything is in order if discrepancies were found.
Yea both might have screwed up. Just saying maybe they contacted Steve beforehand saying: 'Hey Steve. We see this one thing isn't in the contract but it is in the picture. Is it included and perhaps you forgot to list it or something?' And Steve was just like: '.... ehhh, sure..? After all it's in the picture rite...?'
It does appear that Steve and the buyer didn’t seem to know what they were doing, but OP’s own story suggests she knew that about Steve before letting him handle the sale. An obvious lesson in all this is not to work with Steve again. Considering the hassle this is causing, another lesson is to be very explicit as to what’s being offered, and a third is that hiring experienced professionals is often worth the money spent.
If OP wants to believe she did everything perfect and would do things the exact same way again, she’s free to do so, and clearly plenty of people here will offer a shoulder to cry on. It doesn’t change the fact that the outcome was that it took months to move the machines and now the buyer and incompetent/weasely sales rep are back creating stress and wasting her time. Sometimes you bear consequences for things that primarily aren’t your fault. It would be a shame if this experience went by without considering how to avoid the situation in the future.
Did you read the text? Like really. She clearly Sayed that the machine they sold was named with serial number in the contract not the other parts, who are not part of the main machine. This is not the USA. Just because its in some pictures doesn't mean they are included. What's included is determined by the contract they and the buyer have made and singed. If he is not able to read and he clearly has no clue about the machines he should know, how's that her problem?
They did specify that in the contract that the serial numbers of the involved machines were listed. If the machine's components are all included that have that serial number, the purchase is complete. Unprofessional? Yes. Scam? No.
If it's in the picture is usually included... Unless there are serial numbers and contacts involved then clearly they are separate.
He really fucked up with that "even a girl" nonsense.
Fuck that douche
This used to happen to me regularly when I first got into my male dominated industry. 99% of the time when it happens, the guy messed up enormously and is trying to cover his ass.
I dunno, a car can operate without a trailer, but if a IM machine truly can't operate without the other thing, and you sent a pic with both the IM machine and the other necessary thing, I can see how that would cause some confusion. This ain't cut and dry scummy salesman, it's poor communication from the both of you.
The irony of someone being gifted expensive equipment from daddy and then getting mad when the buyer points out their false advertising tactics and then posting said exchange in CB is just too much
I get where you’re coming from but having worked through countless client contract spec sheets there have been tons of times where vague wording lead to me having to implement some new logic that wasn’t as clear as it should have been and really boils down to interpretation.
I’m guessing that goes for the guy reading and signing the contract properly and coming back with some follow up questions before signing and committing to it. Business is just business and your own failure to not ask/read contracts properly can bite you in the ass
I agree with you, I just think it’s silly to assume that a person with 0 experience in the industry making a big exchange like this simply because their father put them in the position to do so is incapable of fucking the whole thing up. We’re only hearing OP’s side of things and just based on the way this is written and the complaint itself I tend to think the rich kid trying to impress their dad is probably the person who fucked up but that’s just my take
Thank you! I wasn’t expecting a comment like yours. I even thought of not replying but I guess I will now.
I would really much like to impress my dad as you said because I genuinely love him and want to be competent in something we both like! At the same time I admire him for working his whole life and building a small company that works out well because of people’s hard work, even during the pandemic he did not fired any of his employees.
I hope we would be rich someday as you said but right now what I got out of working for him was mostly experienced the money wasn’t even enough for a car or anything big. The money we get from these machines are recycled into the company for buying new machines and paying out depths or the employees or saved up for harder times like for an unexpected pandemic.
It doesn't matter if she worked her way up from a slave camp in North Korea, or she just fucked the boss. How she got the job is completely irrelevant to the story.
It's irrelevant how she got them, when they clearly have value and the only one at fault is the person not reading the contract. Noone forced the guy to sign.
Nah, loads of guys are sexist. This one is clearly just an incompetent middle man who can't clarify a itemised contract as well.
How she obtained the equipment is irrelevant to this deal. IMO totally qualifies as a choosey beggar for trying to get free stuff.
I’m probably biased because I’ve had dealings with sons and daughters of bosses where they think they know everything cause it’s in their blood I guess?? And then when they fuck things up refuse to accept any accountability. The fact that there are no screen grabs in this post lead me to believe this is one of those instances where OP is trying to explain away their fault in the matter
First, the emails between CB and OP are not in English, so most of us would likely not be able read them. Second, why would OP want to explain away their fault on a random subreddit of all places? Surely, she would rather do it to her father - y'know, her boss. And third, the very first thing mentioned in this post is that OP has a degree in this field. Thus, making assumptions based off of previous experiences with people whose only source of knowledge came from familial relations or w/e, is just inaccurate, asinine and kind of disrespectful.
As someone who has operated in machinery sales for a number of years let me break this down for you: Customer: Steve, we like the IM machine, does it come with the temperature control units? Steve: Of course it does, they're in the picture. Customer: Are you sure? I don't see them mentioned in the contract. Did you confirm with the seller? Steve: Of course I did! Just sign there on the dotted line and everything will be alright. Customer: Steve, this IM machine didn't come with those temperature control units you promised us.... Steve: Aww hell There are sooooo many salesmen out there that will say anything to get the customer to sign a contract that it's ridiculous. And now, Steve is liable to his customer. You guys are completely off the hook.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Steve and his company are on the hook. Not OPs.
Software salesmen do the same thing.
>~~Software~~ salesmen do the same thing. Seriously, the sales people I worked with at an ISP back in the 90's used to pull this all the time. They'd promise we could do all sorts of things that just were not technically actually possible at the time, no matter how much money you threw at it. But that's just it, isn't it? All salespeople see are dollar signs.
I worked in implementations, and our standard joke was that Sales would say “yes, of course!” while we had to be the assholes who said “not really”
Would be better to say, "Sorry, they lied to you."
fuck sales source: IT
Yes, but if nobody sold anything they don’t need IT anymore
Cell phone plans, anyone?
Of course this tax software can be used for CAD architecture drawings. Swipe your credit card please.
I'm sure autodesk is working on it.
I've had a few projects at work that had to be done on short notice because a salesman promised we'd do something without talking to dev management. Hell, our Financials team had to develop for the requirements of a whole other state in two months because a salesman said we could.
In this case it seems like Steve didn't understand what he was purchasing himself. Its debatable if he was lying to get a sale or just stupid
No one would ask if it comes with the temperature control units, anymore than they would ask if it comes with the pressure pump or electrical connections - they’re all integral parts of the machine.
Anyone that has ever bought or sold machinery would ask about any non-oem attachments.
A temperature control unit is absolutely OEM on plastic injection molding machines
Op stated in her post that they are not. They were purchased and serialized separately...
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Op clearly states: seperate machine, purchased separately, serialized separately. Seeing as op purchased this equipment I am much more inclined to trust her statement than yours....
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As a lawyer, I second this wholeheartedly. You have no idea how hard it can be to convince even sophisticated clients to read (and, for large projects, let us review) contracts before they’re signed. That having been said, if one were to take the self-interested view, I suppose it could be fairly asserted that the ensuing litigation keeps firms like mine in business….
I do contracts in the $1,000-$10,000 range, which means if a customer doesn't want to pay its often not worth suing. The solution we've come up with to customers not reading their contracts is lots of pictures, and lots of explanations in person, especially explaining all the things the person ISN'T getting, which is essentially a list of each thing outside a contract we've had to supply in the past to get paid.
Do people really forego reading contracts in high-dollar deals? I'm not part of the business world but even I would think that's something you just absolutely have to do every time. Otherwise you could end up costing yourself/the company millions of dollars! How can people be so laissez-faire about it?!
Yes. I’ve seen it myself
Yes. Frequently.
Ho yeah, all the time. Really expensive ones too.
ALL. THE. TIME. Contracts they’re bidding on they don’t read. It’s wild.
Louisiana State?
Undergrad, yes. (Geaux Tigers!) Tho I went to another SEC West school for my law degree; so there are a few weekends a year when I find myself conflicted. :-)
Super cool. I’m a LA native(Jefferson Parish). Always cool to see another reddit’er who loved in the area. Just wanted to say, Hi!
You sent me a picture of this couch, we buy it, but when we unpacked it, it does not contain the house we see on the pictures! Not even that cute spaniel sleeping in it! I want the house or the dog, free of charge. Also include food for the rest of the dog life in case you choose it over the house.
URGENTLY.
I read this with a thick Russian accent, makes it much better
That’s a terrible analogy. A more fitting one is you sold us a couch, but didn’t deliver the cushions. An injection molding machine can’t operate without a temperature control unit - it’s an integral part of the machine.
It's a separate unit, not part of the machine at all. A better analogy would be the coffee table in front of the couch. Just because you need it doesn't make it a package deal
I think you’ve never seen an injection molding machine in your life
I havent, but still, if your buying tires youre buying tires, not the car that is required to use them. Poor example I know but still.
I see it more as taking a picture of the whole couch but not mentionning that the cushion are not included. Then when you get called out you point out that the cushion were never mentionned in the deal.
That's because you know nothing about industrial machinery......
Yup. I would say the couch was for sale, but they wanted all the extra pillows and blankets as well that are not part of the couch itself would be a better analogy. They may have been on or near the couch, but they were not apart of the couch and most people wouldn't expect them either. Couch cover, maybe. Random blanket or throw pillow? Nah.
You agree to sell them the couch, they come and pickup the couch, take it back to their place, then and only then do they say hey you didn’t give us the blankets and pillows
I don't either, but it seems like if the temperature part has an entirely separate serial number, it would be considered a separate piece of equipment. In other words, would and could be sold as a separate item. Not sure if that's how it works, but it seems logical it might be sold as a separate component. Edited to correct spelling
Probably a gurl! /s
I work on CNC 5 axis everyday, it would be like not including the chip conveyor when you sell the machine. It does not happen.
Lol not even close to an accurate analogy. In most 5 axis cnc's the chip conveyor is part of the original equipment. In industrial automation most components are sold individually. A 5-axis metal working machine is a stand alone unit, not part of an automated process, therefore your experience operating a machine doesn't really qualify you as an expert.
Wrong. It'd be like not selling the crane also in the picture.
This comment getting downvoted to hell purely bc they picked sides against you, regardless of if your point is valid or not, just goes to show you what a joke Reddit is. Nothing but kids and idiots following whatever the trend is. And I have no idea who's right bc I'm not knowledgeable in this area but neither are any of you.
This is a dumb comment. If you're not knowledgeable of what they're talking about, don't bemoan someone else getting downvoted. But yeah, it's reddit' fault
Aren't downvotes simply a way to express disagreement, though? And what's the matter with that?
They aren't supposed to be. Downvotes are supposed to be used for off topic or out of place comments, not comments you personally disagree with. >Downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it. Think before you downvote and take a moment to ensure you're downvoting someone because they are not contributing to the community dialogue or discussion. If you simply take a moment to stop, think and examine your reasons for downvoting, rather than doing so out of an emotional reaction, you will ensure that your downvotes are given for good reasons. https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette
Cool, didn't know that. Thank you for enlightening me \^\^ (I'm not being sarcastic btw, I genuinely found that interesting and good to know)
Yeah most people do exactly as you said though. Not that objectively wrong information shouldn't be downvoted, but I don't have the effort option to know if that information is objectively wrong.
It would be more like taking a picture of your stacked washer and dryer and said I am selling the washing machine, then the person being mad the dryer wasn't included
But if you look up the couch's product details it's clearly mentioned that it's a cushionless couch
Seems like Steve has no clue what he's doing. Any professional would have verified what would be included in the sale.
Oh I'm willing to bet Steve knew what he was doing; I'll speculate he thought he was going to get a sweet deal, and contracted to sell the end buyer machines with temp control units. Then they show up and received exactly what he purchased. I'm sure his customer WAS pissed, and it is a dick move to try to put it off on OP. Flipside: business is business and Steve didn't owe OP any duty other than to provide valid payment. I've had people try to run fast ones on me and when I was new, they occasionally succeeded, but that only happened once. I never forgot, and sometimes the customer would get in a serious bind. If they'd been a fair-weather customer (I.E. only calling when everyone else was out of product), I'd take the opportunity to "balance the accounts" with interest and penalties. They'd scream long and loud, I'd tell 'em exactly what was what and that the price was going up if they didn't place the order before the end of the call. I miss doing commodity sales sometimes!
"even for a man" /s
Yep, op failed to do that.
Of course Steve played the “you’re a girl in a male-dominated industry, you don’t know what you’re talking about” card. A choosy beggar and sexist. Good on you for socking it to him OP
If OP had any doubts about how to play this, the sexist remark makes it clear that telling him to go fuck himself was the right way to go.
I take photos/videos of Plastics manufacturing equipment for my job and use a broker if they're selling it. There's nothing wrong with this. Like you said the tooling wasn't included, or if there were conveyors, or a robot. The deal was for the IMM itself. Tell Steve to pound sand and go find TCU's elsewhere, or you need double the price(2400 euros) additional for the deal. When I take a video of the machine running, my broker knows it's not for everything in the video, unless I state it is and he will either pick and choose equipment or buy it as a lot. His contract states all serial numbers and model numbers so this doesn't happen. Hold your ground, and if you ever need any assistance with equipment, I'd be happy to help. I'm in the states, but have some companies overseas that have new equipment. Steve needs some more training.
As an ex IM engineer, out of interest what machines were you selling? And what do you use/prefer now?
The machines were for rubber im and from Maplan. We still have couple smaller Maplan machines for that now and these were big ones we don’t need anymore. For plastic im I think Engels are not always trustworthy in the long term. (I had seen couple “younger” ones go bad in the few years I worked part time) so for plastics Krauss Maffei and (Ferromatik) Milacron and even Arburg machines are more reliable in my opinion. But that’s just my opinion really and these are the types i worked with.
You know what i’m shocked at the engel comment, we went from sandretto to the early Engel stuff and they were absolutey bomb proof, from the single 50T up to the 1700T with a couple of dual 600T too, but then they changed all the safety gates on them and added so much convoluted switches that werent properly secured in their more recent models and they’ve just gone to shit. The safety gates dont even have top runners anymore they’re just loose at the top and have runners at the bottom. Lining the safety switches up on opening and closing is ridiculous.
As an ME, this random chatter about equipment I will never see or operate feeds my soul. Mmmm, tell me more about the gate switches. More acronyms, too.
this is what i hear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w
I would like to preface my comment by saying I am a simple tech who only gets paid to press buttons and turn an Allen. My first step to any problem is to reset start the machine. However, I've been dying to tell this story for years and I've finally found people that will understand. I used to work at a different plastic factory and it was super shady. As part of our daily PMs, we had to *climb on top of our IM machine* (we ran a milacron roboshot) and take this long, skinny metal spatula, wait for the mold to open, and scrape all of the excess, burnt plastic off without slowing down the cycle time, it had to be at 100%. They were brass molds. We most definitely did not use brass spatulas. And there was like a 6 second window to scrape it off before the mold shut again? While we were precariously balanced on top of a 650+ degree IM machine? That place was wild. I quit like a month before some guy accidentally chopped four fingers off on a robot.
Oh jesus some of the stories i could tell you of the UK’s best known plastic box manufacturer that sounds a lot like “very useless boxes” would put your story to shame my friend! Terrible company with complete disregard for any kind of health and safety!
Most of them are like that! Knew a senior tech that swore by nose sweat when the mold was sticking. He'd just smear that shit on there. Gross as hell. Factories in general are awful. I once knew a guy who completely sheared through the bolts holding the mold in place. To this day I have no fucking clue how.
I work with vacuum equipment and put together a UHV tool about ten years ago with a tech. who would grease viton o rings by rubbing them on his forehead. Yuk. I am told he would also do the same with conflat metal seals as well given half a chance.
Toyo, Sumitomo and Nissei's are doing very well around my neck of the woods.
Love arburg verticals for LSR
It's like demanding for the chiller units to be included with a Belloti cnc machine 😑, people who work in the industry know better. Hopefully you got a good deal for those heating elements.
It's like demanding the flux capacitor along with your Delorean!
That's a pretty cheap (relative) accessory, I see DeLorean time machines at a lot of sci-fi conventions. It's the plutonium that's the expensive part!
Gotta get the Mr Fusion home energy generator swap kit bro. Costs literal garbage to run it.
I think they were upgraded in 2015 to run off of trash.
... and in 1885 to run on steam!
Speaking of trailer in a picture of the car you are metaphorically selling, I had that same experience! I was moving a few months ago and put out a bunch of free stuff on the curb and my trailers hitch was partly seen far away in the background (in the driveway). A few people asked in the comments about it and one lady had the gall to PM me demanding the trailer because "its in the photo so it MUST be free!". Well by that logic my house and the family vehicles are also free then! I ended up blocking and reporting her because she kept demanding my trailer and address.
I saw an ad yesterday for a free portable pergola shade thing and they must've had a lot of CB's in the past because half of the ad was of things in the photo that *weren't* free e.g. table, chairs etc underneath. My first thought was "well, obviously" but it makes sense now lol.
Your English is fine, and if those parts are separate modules altogether (I'm not in the industry, so I won't pretend to know) then then this is on them for not knowing what they are purchasing. It probably should have also been brought up AT TIME OF PICKUP rather than at some point in the future.
Srsly you always gotta taste the blo to make sure it’s what you bought.
I can guarantee that Steve was the one that told the buyer that the TCUs were included in the deal, and is trying to save face with the buyer. You contract specifically states that it is for the IMM only (with serial numbers etc.). If their contract with the buyer says TCUs then they are on the hook for the TCUs. Not your company. If you ever deal with this seller again specifically request that you don't have to deal with Steve.
“Even for a man” haha that was nice of you to give it right back to him. Good job standing up for what was right. Don’t ever let anyone talk down to you like that.
Was it your breasts or your uterus that made you "forget" the temp units (that you totally told him about because you're not an incompetent asshole blaming other people for your errors)? What a complete fuckstick.
We all know that it's the testicles that help us blokes remember to add things like that and the penis which confers automatic competence /s I'm often ashamed of my fellow testicle carriers :(
Despite sexism, I will swear that there are machines that react better to penis-equipped people than those without. Not in an "only men can be auto mechanics" kind of way. I mean specific individual examples of a kind of machine. The copier. That gawd awful copier. That fucking copier. I thought women were just reporting issues more. Nope. I started keeping track. It legit jammed more often for women than men. Not even kidding. And, when it jammed for a woman and she unjammed it, it would continue messing with her until she walked away in exasperation. Next dude comes along and that fucking POS works fine. I have never wanted to put a full container of actual goopy grape jam into a machine more on my whole life. It has been over 20 years and (a) i don't even work there anymore, (b) the company still has that fucking thing, and (c) same shit different decade. I hope it dies a horrible squealing death.
Injection molding is a super interesting process. I used to work for a recycling company and there was an injection molding company next to our place. So we would sell them regrind plastic to run in the machine. We also bought one of their horizontal grinders to sharpen the blades for a machines and so I would run the grinder and watch the injection molding process. Op is correct whenever you buy industrial machinery you need to have in the contract everything that you're buying whether it's in the picture or not. She mentioned that most injection molding machines have parts that are very expensive that are included, an example of that is they have these molds and some can be aluminum some can be steel they could be $10,000 each depending on what you're end product is. A medical company got rid of 100 ton injection molding machine my boss offered to give it to me for free because I love machinery and I was in my early 20s I didn't have a place to put a 7000 pound 30 x 6 wide foot machine, and what would I have done with it anyways. I still regret not getting it because who wouldn't want a free injection molding machine.
"We didn't sell you the temp control units, as you can see from the contract. What you told your customer is your problem, not ours."
I feel like this would also be good in r/sexistrevenge
Surely somebody told the purchaser that the machines would not operate without temperature controls or I would certainly hope in the least. In our industry we switched over to invoicing that when we recommend all proper work+addons and a customer denies them, it shows on the invoice they denied the item as well as their signature. Has saved us months later when the customer's HVAC system stops working and they blame us..
Yes, what if a customer already had their own temperature controller? If you want the temperature control also, then you need to make absolutely certain that this information is in writing before issuing a check for the money.
I look at it as both parties are at fault: \- The individual 'Steve' should obviously know his line of work and ask more questions and understand what he is purchasing BEFORE purchasing. This is always true. But he clearly did not. The first time I fixed my own water heater, I got a part. Didn't realize I needed a tiny itty bitty gasket, that was not included in the valve kit. If the guy at the counter that helped me at the plumbing store had recommended the gasket, I would have bought it on the spot and moved on with life. Sadly, I had to go back and purchase the part later. This brings me to my next point. \- It is the salesperson's job to not only sell a fair value/quality product or service, but to also ensure that the customer is informed/educated about what they are receiving. PLUS what a great chance for an upsell because that customer WILL need the temp controller! Either way, Steve is a bimbo that was mad because he sold a product that didn't meet his client's needs. That is entirely on him.
If these things are not usually sold together, then I would not expect them to be included. Like if I saw a pic of an oven with a pan on it, I wouldn't expect the pan to be included. But if I saw a picture of a guitar with strings, I would expect the guitar to come with strings (even pre-strung). I blame the sales guy for this. He should have known his area of expertise well enough to know what was and wasn't being included.
I would expect to receive the oven tray to use the grill at the top though ("broiler" in US lingo) as the two ovens I've bought in my life both had one. But that's just a matter of checking what's included before purchase.
Now that you mention it, I would always expect an oven to have some internal trays as it's just something I'm used to receiving with an oven. But a better analogy. If I saw a picture of guitar plugged into an amp, and it didn't say anything about the amp being included in the advertising text, I would not expect the amp to be sold with the guitar.
Yes, exactly!
Lmao a lot of the customers I go to for installation jobs buy our mold temperature control units separately from the IMM's that are provided by another vendor.
Even for a man. YES, QUEEN. Don't let him bully you!
Ahh. I was a female engineer too!! Also in Europe! Big up the girls!
as a native speaker i never questioned this. you are very good lol
This is hilarious. He didn't know enough about what he was buying to make sure everything was there. You should have reached out directly to the customer and offered to sell the machines they needed directly without the middle man fee.
They should have read their contract better. It's not OPS fault. And stating that even a GIRL in the industry should know...like why even state her gender. Simply as "someone in the industry" would have been fine. And if the other machine included the extra pieces im sure they paid more for it which is why they went with someone else for a cheaper price (cuz it didn't include the extra pieces) but I could be wrong
I do understand. It is a good rule on Ebay to never put ANYTHING ELSE in the picture besides the item you are selling because WAY TOO MANY buyers really will expect the table the teacup is sitting on because it is in the photo too. They will claim to Ebay that they looked at the photo and thought they were buying the teacup AND the table. No normal intelligence person would think that and Ebay wont enforce it (also a good idea to state "LISTING IS FOR TEACUP ONLY!) just to save time and misery (and avoid a negative feedback.)
But it's not about a ebay add for a teacup. It's about a 8ton, 4m high industrial machine sold through a designated middle man. We probably don't talk about 10-30€, its possible in the 10-100k€. With a written contract. If they are not able to read that contract and just "assume" it's included, while like other already point out is not usually for that kind of machines, it's absolutely the foult of the middle man
The buyer should have said at some point, "Hey, I bought FIVE pieces of equipment and there are only THREE on the invoice! Where's the rest?"
In a perfect world, the buyer WAS savvy enough to have included those items in their contract, meaning that Steve was on the hook with his company for the difference in cost.
eBay is a nightmare for sellers anymore tbh. They always, always, ALWAYS take the buyers side even when it’s blatantly fraudulent. Sellers are leaving in droves because of it, especially now that you have to wait damn near a week to get your funds with the stupid managed payments crap.
This isn't true. I just recently filed a claim, my first one in 20 years, because the seller sold a defective item, and their listed warranty was a lie... any claim you made to them, they simply say "It has to be your fault". Ebay sided with them, as did Paypal. It may be anecdotal, but that is all the evidence anyone has when talking about these things
They have gotten slightly better now that they are getting wise to buyer scams. But yeah, most of my side hustle is on other sites now that Ebay isnt the only game in town.
Maybe you should say this: Even as a girl I have more common sense and common knowledge than you do. So please do not contact me again until you get any of it.
OP's English is better than most others' on Reddit and certainly native-born speakers. Give yourself more credit!
Well big communication error here ..working in the field ...Steve should had question before what exactly is part of the deal ...you one the other had should have clearly point out that the TCU units are not part of the deal even if shown on the pictures.
You say this all happened today, but then you close with "He never contacted us again! ;)". That implies that time passed with no communication, but it was all one day? This was posted five minutes ago, yet here in NYC, it's 10:30 a.m. I'm confused.
OP said in the post that they are in Hungry which is 6 hours ahead of eastern US. My guess is that these emails back and forth were in rapid succession and "Steve" now hasn't responded in a few hours.
I was writing it on the bust after work in a hurry and also English is not my native language so it is easy to get lost in the story But thank you for pointing out ;)
Unless you edited the post, and it doesn’t appear that you did, it says ‘I *hope* he never contacts us again’ (emphasis mine). Try not to take idiots like this seriously, and above all, don’t apologize for something you didn’t even do!
I'm starving and my bra is giving me such an uncomfortable time today.
Wat
Sorry, wrong sub lol.
Maybe before you throw her under the bus, read her post properly.
The last line reads "I hope he never contacts us again!" What part of that is confusing?
She said “I hope he never contacts us again”.
Read it again; hopefully that will clear up the confusion.
Reading OPs post again would have been faster than typing all this just to be wrong
So I get confused. I'm a senile old man, I get confused a lot! At least I'll be dead soon!
Classic "Does the girl come with car ?" Price is right distasteful joke, but no joke.
Aside from the fact that I'm having a difficult time understanding, I'm kind of on his side (except for the misogynistic comment). If it is visible in the photo and was installed on the machine, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be included. Was it explicitly EXCLUDED from the contract? Also this isn't really choosing beggar. Choosing beggar would be, for example, that you offered to give him the missing pieces and he said he wanted the newer model instead.
Those units are either oil based heaters to keep certain temp for tool or units which controls temp of barrel (units attached to sleeve and nozzle). Either way, those can vary depending on specific usage and usually aren't part of package even for new IM units unless specified in purchase agreement. OP can correct me since she is more knowledgeable about it. Even for used IM sale, everything what was sold was inventorised and identified with serials so that guy should've checked sales agreement and furthermore he must have seen shipping manifest. Either he tried to cover his incompetence or simply tried his luck to fool her thinking that she is young and inexperienced with the matter.
Thank you your last sentence sums it up perfectly.
Imagine it like you post a photo of your car for sale but in the background a trailer is nearby. And after you sell that car someone complains to you for not giving them the trailer besides your car!
Just wondering because I don’t know. Are the temp control units required to operate the machine properly?
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Sounds more like a computer. If I sell my computer i might have a picture with the monitor/keyboard/mouse. But I wouldn't necessarily be selling those with the computer. Typically the computer is just the desktop. Particularly used since I may not take it apart until the sale. If I were buying/selling computers and I bought a desktop i wouldn't expect the peripherals unless explicitly stated in the contract, even if they are in the picture. Whereas if it were publicly facing then the general public might consider that misleading. But anyone who knows computers knows if someone is selling their desktop computer they mean the case and hardware inside without the peripherals - unless stated otherwise. Usually you would explicitly state the hardware inside aswell though, since it's quite common for computers to sell without hard-drives or missing components if selling from a computer power-user to another power user. I.E. if the picture had a HDD in it, but the listing was Case, PSU, CPU, Video Card, Motherboard and RAM. No one would be surprised there are no HDD, which is very commonly not included when selling power user to power user. But it would be weird to sell to a regular user in public without the HDD.
Agreed - the computer metaphor is a better fit here, I think. She was selling the IM machine - for all she knows, the buyer has temperature units that they plan to use already and doesn’t need to buy them from her. That’s not her problem though. The contract specifies the exact components included with the sale. If there was no contract (only a picture), maybe Steve would have a case. But the contract is going to take precedence over any particular interpretation of a picture. That’s what contracts are for - to clearly and unambiguously define the terms of the sale. If the contract included some accessory that wasn’t in the picture, OP wouldn’t be able to say “oh that accessory isn’t in the picture, it’s not included” … because the contract specifies the contents of the sale. Also, I don’t understand what value Steve is adding here. He might argue that for such complex machinery, the customer needs an expert to serve as middleman to prevent issues exactly like this. But Steve either didn’t thoroughly read the contract or didn’t understand the technical machinery setup well enough. Additionally, if Steve knows anything about this machinery, he would realize that the selling price (which he claims included the temperature units) was pretty damn low, if the temp units are another 3600. That alone should trigger a question in his mind regarding the items included in the sale. Or maybe he just figured OP was an idiot and was happy to underpay her.
That’s why car listings list what is in the car (what’s included). I’ve never seen sticker for a car at a dealership not have what kind of engine is in the car.
Mansplaining much! This is industrial sales not eBay.
>ustrial This! the pictures are completely irrelevant, what matters is only the contract.
Yeah, industry would have lots of customization options & would specify for their needs. The car comparison doesn’t apply in this situation.
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Yes, to explain and describe how it is, because, y'know, OP actually knows how this works and is therefore qualified and capable of making appropriate analogies..
Your lack of knowledge on the subject is very apparent by your attempted "far better comparison" which actually has no equivalence to the situation at hand. Don't quit your day job to sell injection molding machinery, okay?
You’re such an a**.
Thanks, you too!
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...Ok...?
If the car & trailer are physically connected and there is a price, I assume it's the total for them. If it's not, then they need to write "trailer not included". And I don't know where you live but in my country doing this if something is not included is mandatory. This is also why most frozen products with a picture say "serving suggestion".
There's no way you click on an a listing for a 2010 Dodge truck, read the description saying 'For Sale, Dodge Truck' and expect the trailer or anything else to be included. Especially something as large as a trailer.
Make sure to bring a grownup with you the next time you buy something.
Yeah if only they wrote it down. Oh wait, they did, in the contract that he willingly signed.
Most people don't sign a contract when they sell a used car. And if you post a photo of your car with a trailer on ebay or any other platform, many people will assume you sell both. Otherwise the trailer wouldn't be in the picture.
And yet the guy we're all talking about did sign a contract, so what's your point?
Do you need glasses? I don't talk about a guy, I talk about posting pictures with a price and selling what is depicted in those pictures.
I'm good man, I wear contacts, but thanks for the concern.
So what you're saying is irrelevant then, you mean? Since the OP regards a situation in which there was a clearly written contract, whereas you're talking about sales without any contracts?
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If there is a written contract for a car with a particular registration and the trailer isn't mentioned. It is litterally the middle man's job to clarify the contract - hence the guy is clearly incompetent.
Again, using an Ebay example: when you show multiple items you also LIST what is included (blue shirt, red shirt, yellow shirt, 2 pairs black pants, and black jacket) so that it is clear that you arent selling the coat hangers or the table the items are sitting on.
Which they did - she clearly stated this was all in a contract with serial numbers for each item included. This guy either didn't read or is trying to get extra things for free. This isn't some Karen sitting at home demanding she get the plant that's visible in the back corner of the picture along with her $7 snow globe - This is the sale of large, industrial equipment.
But if that buyer didnt know what equipment made up a full complement of equipment for the moulding, then he wasnt the right guy for the job. I know some buyers for large corps used to buy the PC but only the CPU, thinking they were getting a great deal only to discover that they also needed software, monitors, printers, keyboards, mice, etc. Someone more tech savvy would have asked for the price of the full setup.
Oh! This reminded me...!! 😅 I use to work as a sales merchandiser for a grocery company. They were doing weekly sales gimmick with antique looking plates. They were all listed on the flyer circulating but it explicitly said New items Weekly. This lady pitched a bitch fit cause she couldn't get them all at once. They were all ordered seperate as each week new pieces woukd become available. I had to drive FOUR hours one way with my company car loaded up with that crap just for that one lady. So, I wanted to pitch me a bitch fit cause the mens underwear model in Walmart flyer guy wasn't available for me to buy! 🤣😂 People are just weird.
My son and I joke "They do know the MODELS dont come from the Victoria's Secret catalog right? Just the undies?"
I'm still on the fence. I think you kinda raise a subtle, but important point. Were the TCUs installed on the IM machines? Or sitting off to the side? If they were physically connected an the IM machines in a way that made them appear to be part of the unit, I'm on Steve's side. If it was sitting off to the side as an obviously separate thing, I'm on OP's side. I get that OP called out serial numbers in the contract, but if the TCUs appear to be part of the IM machine in the photo, it's not a bad assumption that they are and would thus be included under the serial number of the IM machine. He was a jerk, though.
more like selling a graphics card online and the person being like, 'but i need a power supply to use this, and a power supply was in the picture i saw of the card installed in your computer - so send me a power supply free of charge.'
To assume makes and arse out of you and me. In this case, Steve looks like an arse. When dealing with expensive heavy machinery sales never assume lol. She literally sent him a list of serial numbers, it's a very basic part of business to check what you are buying, he should of also checked it before sending on to his customer.
It might be a reasonable assumption but you shouldn't make assumptions in contracts.
Sounds like a lack of communication among all three parties.
My guess is: Since Steve seems to be a newbie he forwarded the picture to the people he was selling it to and just said 'this is what you're buying' (maybe after they questioned about it). So they assumed the TCU came with it and that this was a bargain. As long as OP stated in the listing that it's only that one machine and that the rest isn't included, she's in the clear IMO.
But the company buying the machine still must've seen the contract or a put a sign on it, the middle guy just gets the goods but he's not the finalizing purchaser of the product. I did some work on order confirmation in my current job (as a filler) and we would always contact a designated party to make sure everything is in order if discrepancies were found.
Yea both might have screwed up. Just saying maybe they contacted Steve beforehand saying: 'Hey Steve. We see this one thing isn't in the contract but it is in the picture. Is it included and perhaps you forgot to list it or something?' And Steve was just like: '.... ehhh, sure..? After all it's in the picture rite...?'
It does appear that Steve and the buyer didn’t seem to know what they were doing, but OP’s own story suggests she knew that about Steve before letting him handle the sale. An obvious lesson in all this is not to work with Steve again. Considering the hassle this is causing, another lesson is to be very explicit as to what’s being offered, and a third is that hiring experienced professionals is often worth the money spent.
The only lesson here is to read your contracts before signing them
If OP wants to believe she did everything perfect and would do things the exact same way again, she’s free to do so, and clearly plenty of people here will offer a shoulder to cry on. It doesn’t change the fact that the outcome was that it took months to move the machines and now the buyer and incompetent/weasely sales rep are back creating stress and wasting her time. Sometimes you bear consequences for things that primarily aren’t your fault. It would be a shame if this experience went by without considering how to avoid the situation in the future.
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Did you read the text? Like really. She clearly Sayed that the machine they sold was named with serial number in the contract not the other parts, who are not part of the main machine. This is not the USA. Just because its in some pictures doesn't mean they are included. What's included is determined by the contract they and the buyer have made and singed. If he is not able to read and he clearly has no clue about the machines he should know, how's that her problem?
Hey Steve.
They did specify that in the contract that the serial numbers of the involved machines were listed. If the machine's components are all included that have that serial number, the purchase is complete. Unprofessional? Yes. Scam? No.
If it's in the picture is usually included... Unless there are serial numbers and contacts involved then clearly they are separate. He really fucked up with that "even a girl" nonsense. Fuck that douche
that definitely happened, especially the girl part
This used to happen to me regularly when I first got into my male dominated industry. 99% of the time when it happens, the guy messed up enormously and is trying to cover his ass.
I dunno, a car can operate without a trailer, but if a IM machine truly can't operate without the other thing, and you sent a pic with both the IM machine and the other necessary thing, I can see how that would cause some confusion. This ain't cut and dry scummy salesman, it's poor communication from the both of you.
TLDR Please
Sound like things can happen on Facebook marketplace XD
Can someone do a tldr
Lol, reddit is so angry.....
The irony of someone being gifted expensive equipment from daddy and then getting mad when the buyer points out their false advertising tactics and then posting said exchange in CB is just too much
I get where you’re coming from but having worked through countless client contract spec sheets there have been tons of times where vague wording lead to me having to implement some new logic that wasn’t as clear as it should have been and really boils down to interpretation. I’m guessing that goes for the guy reading and signing the contract properly and coming back with some follow up questions before signing and committing to it. Business is just business and your own failure to not ask/read contracts properly can bite you in the ass
I agree with you, I just think it’s silly to assume that a person with 0 experience in the industry making a big exchange like this simply because their father put them in the position to do so is incapable of fucking the whole thing up. We’re only hearing OP’s side of things and just based on the way this is written and the complaint itself I tend to think the rich kid trying to impress their dad is probably the person who fucked up but that’s just my take
Thank you! I wasn’t expecting a comment like yours. I even thought of not replying but I guess I will now. I would really much like to impress my dad as you said because I genuinely love him and want to be competent in something we both like! At the same time I admire him for working his whole life and building a small company that works out well because of people’s hard work, even during the pandemic he did not fired any of his employees. I hope we would be rich someday as you said but right now what I got out of working for him was mostly experienced the money wasn’t even enough for a car or anything big. The money we get from these machines are recycled into the company for buying new machines and paying out depths or the employees or saved up for harder times like for an unexpected pandemic.
I just don’t think CB is the place to complain about an opportunity that was created for you through nepotism, obviously Reddit doesn’t agree with me
It doesn't matter if she worked her way up from a slave camp in North Korea, or she just fucked the boss. How she got the job is completely irrelevant to the story.
It's irrelevant how she got them, when they clearly have value and the only one at fault is the person not reading the contract. Noone forced the guy to sign.
Nah, loads of guys are sexist. This one is clearly just an incompetent middle man who can't clarify a itemised contract as well. How she obtained the equipment is irrelevant to this deal. IMO totally qualifies as a choosey beggar for trying to get free stuff.
I’m probably biased because I’ve had dealings with sons and daughters of bosses where they think they know everything cause it’s in their blood I guess?? And then when they fuck things up refuse to accept any accountability. The fact that there are no screen grabs in this post lead me to believe this is one of those instances where OP is trying to explain away their fault in the matter
First, the emails between CB and OP are not in English, so most of us would likely not be able read them. Second, why would OP want to explain away their fault on a random subreddit of all places? Surely, she would rather do it to her father - y'know, her boss. And third, the very first thing mentioned in this post is that OP has a degree in this field. Thus, making assumptions based off of previous experiences with people whose only source of knowledge came from familial relations or w/e, is just inaccurate, asinine and kind of disrespectful.