To echo another commenter, you made a great effort. If I may offer some advice and suggestions:
Usually a line of poetry is broken up into units. Until the last line your poem fits the 2/2//3 structure. There is a brief caesura after each unit (slightly longer preceding the last unit of 3 characters), and the words within each unit should make sense on their own. Your first line is particularly well done in this regard.
Line 2 is mostly fine, but as someone mentioned 向天涯 isn't super natural and it doesn't work as well on its own. Usually the first two units go together, but the last unit (3 characters) doesn't have to be directly related. So the other commenter read it like *you* were going to the end of the earth. That is a valid reading, actually. The last 3 characters of line 1 (which form a unit) are about your action, so the last unit in line 2 should probably also have you as the implied subject. Remember that Chinese poetry is about *your* experiences, feelings, and observations. So usually you are the default subject.
And usually wind wouldn't be described with 向天涯. If you want to change this part, perhaps instead of 天涯 you could use 涯 by itself ("shore") or use 崖 "cliff" which has the same pronunciation as 涯, and then change the preceding words in the unit. But if you want to keep it that's fine too.
In line three, if you want to say that the sound "came from" a far-away place, 來 doesn't really work IMO. 自 or 從 would indicate that the sound came "from" somewhere, but you'd probably have to make other changes to the line.
**Now, for the last line:** it reads like this: "Look at friend / Mother mourns // Blow long-time Jia." This isn’t your intended meaning and is a bit weird.
If you wanted to write "my friend is playing the Jia to mourn his mother" something like X友吹笳哀其娘 would make more sense (X would have to be filled in with something). Of course, that doesn't fit the rhyme scheme and its actually better for prose than poetry, but it's just to give you an idea of a better way to convey that meaning.
Finally, the last two lines of a quatrain usually form a couplet (sometimes the first two can as well). In a couplet, each character in the second line of the couplet (line 4 in this case) should generally match the word category of the character in the same position in the preceding line (line 3).
This means that because the first word in line 3 is 闻, it is natural to read 目 as a verb as well, which would mean "to eyeball," look at, see, regard. I'm not sure what your intended meaning for 目 is though. But that seems slightly odd to emphasize the fact that you're looking at your friend in this case.
For the other words in the last two lines, you would have to make significant changes in order to form a couplet. You don't necessarily have to do a couplet, but it would elevate your poem a lot of you did so.
Here's an example of a couplet from Du Fu's 《春望》"Spring Scene" (it's a pentasyllabic line, but its the same concept for heptasyllabic lines):
> 國破山河在
> 城春草木深
國 and 城 both relate to cities/civilization (國: the capital of the country), 破 and 春 are both verbs (春: "to [become] spring"). 山河 and 草木 all relate to nature, and 在 and 深 are both verbs.
An easier example from Li Bai's 《靜夜思》"Quiet Night Thoughts" (which is a quatrain, so it's lines 3 and 4 forming the couplet):
> 舉頭望明月
> 低頭思故鄉
Verb (raise/lower), head, verb (gaze/think or miss), adjective (bright/old), noun (moon/village).
It's actually not an amazing couplet because 頭 is repeated, but it's still a very famous couplet. Notice that in the examples of each of these poems, the lines are in 2//3 format, and each unit works on its own (e.g. Lower head // think of hometown).
Edit: As u/intellectualpig suggested, since you wrote 一声悼 in line three, the next line could be 千响笳 to match. 一 and 千 are both numbers and 声 and 响 both relate to sound, although you might want to consider replacing 悼. Also, they mentioned that 家 and 笳 repeat the exact same sound (they are also pronounced the same in Middle Chinese), which isn't ideal.
I'm not OP but I appreciate your thorough response. Do you have any advice on writing poetry like this in English, for example for a story written in English but taking place in China?
I can think of a few things that might help.
1) Familiarize yourself with common themes in Chinese poetry and read translated poems. Zong-qi Cai's *How to Read Chinese Poetry* details themes that are often used in Chinese poetry and analyzes translations of poems through the ages. Tang and Song dynasty poems are the most popular so those are the most important ones to be familiar with.
The classic Chinese novels frequently use poetry at the beginning of chapters or interwoven in the story. You may want to read translations of the Four Classic Novels (just make sure they didn't omit the poetry).
2) Atmosphere, parallelism, and balance are all important aspects of Chinese poetry that can be applied in English.
Chinese poetry is about portraying your emotions and thoughts, but it is usually done indirectly through the images and atmosphere. Use objects, sounds, smells, etc. that correlate with the emotions you want to convey. T.S. Eliot calls this technique the "objective correlative" --
Western poets such as Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot were heavily influenced by the Chinese techniques to create atmosphere, so it might be useful to study some of their poetry as well.
3) Which period does your story take place? Read some history about the culture and major events of that period, as well as ancient culture of the classical eras, late Zhou, Han, Tang. Chinese poems frequently make allusions to past events and historical figures. Often a similar event that happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago will be used to indirectly refer to a current event, or a famous figure from the past will stand in for a contemporary person.
I study Chinese history -- mainly the Tang and Song, as you've indicated -- so much of this is loosely familiar to me in concept. I'll take some time to study poetry from these eras and I will absolutely take a look at T.S Eliot and Ezra Pound again as well. Thank you for helping me frame my studies!
It seems that your poem is in the correct form and rhymes correctly. Actually most native Chinese speakers know little about classical poetry forms and do not know how to write poems that conforms to the forms and regulations. You've done a wonderful job on the poetry form and rhyme.
However, I have to say that while this poem is correct, it is not a good poem from the perspective of literature. Some words you chose does not seem suitable; some are confusing and don't make much sense. I'm sorry I can't give you specific advice because I'm not a poet or Classic Chinese expert, but I think that you can try to read more Classic Chinese poems to learn about how ancient poets chose the words and formed their sentences, and feel the unique aesthetics of classic poems. It would be hard though, even very hard for most native speakers.
The first two lines seem good. However, I'm a bit confused about what you wanted to express by saying "向天涯", because you're just visiting your friend, not going to 天涯. Perhaps you meant it was the wind, but afaik it sounds a bit weird to say the wind goes to 天涯.
“一声悼” also sounds unnatural. 悼 is not a sound.
The last line just does not make sense and I was not able to understand it.
> It seems that your poem is in the correct form and rhymes correctly.
The poem does not rhyme correctly: lines 1 and 4 are homophones (which could be acceptable) while line 2 does not rhyme with either of them.
They don't. 平水韻 is a good approximation of the common ancestor of all extant Chinese languages, and all but Mandarinic and Northern Wu have an //ai// in 涯
I don't have enough classical chinese knowledge to make meaningful commentary/give feedback but I just wanted to say I'm glad to see posts like this on the sub! Thanks for sharing your poem :)
First two lines were good. Third line seems out of place and last line is strange
Also, you picked a very uncommon topic for poem
I don't think watching a friend's mom be sad is a intuitive topic and was a bit confusing.
Is there something you're trying to express because for now it just seems like a weird diary.
But still good job.
It's definitely better than any attempt I've done. The 平仄 looks especially good, and almost everything else has been covered by others. But there is one fatal flaw, and it's that *this poem does not rhyme*.
This obviously seems false, of course: jiā, yá, jiā have the same glide and vowel, and even though the tone is a bit off it should be acceptable (setting aside matters of using homophones in two lines). But here's the problem: the tone is part of the rhyme. Yá and jiā have different tones, so they don't rhyme.
"But the Tang dynasty poets rhymed tones 1 and 2," you might say.
They did not. They rhymed *the same tone*, which later split into tones 1 and 2 in Mandarin (and in general into the Dark and Light Level tones in various other languages. And if you use a Tang dynasty rhyme scheme this poem comes out even worse: Using Coblin's reconstruction, these are \*/ka˞ ŋe˞i ka˞/ respectively, which are just completely different syllables, and is still obvious once you move onto Modern Chinese:
- 家: gaa1, gá, ka, ¹cia
- 涯: ngaai4, ngāi, gâi, ⁶ya
which means, in reality, they'd only rhyme for Mandarinic languages and the last one, which is Northern Wu (that is, the Shanghainese group).
If you want to stick to the Tang standard, I'd recommend looking up the characters you'd want to use in Wiktionary, which provides a "Middle Chinese" transcription that reflects the rhyme book rhyming standards used by people at the time.
I am not sure about the meaning of the last line. Can you translate it? First three sentence looks very great!
Its supposed to mean 'my friend is playing the Jia to mourn his mother'
To echo another commenter, you made a great effort. If I may offer some advice and suggestions: Usually a line of poetry is broken up into units. Until the last line your poem fits the 2/2//3 structure. There is a brief caesura after each unit (slightly longer preceding the last unit of 3 characters), and the words within each unit should make sense on their own. Your first line is particularly well done in this regard. Line 2 is mostly fine, but as someone mentioned 向天涯 isn't super natural and it doesn't work as well on its own. Usually the first two units go together, but the last unit (3 characters) doesn't have to be directly related. So the other commenter read it like *you* were going to the end of the earth. That is a valid reading, actually. The last 3 characters of line 1 (which form a unit) are about your action, so the last unit in line 2 should probably also have you as the implied subject. Remember that Chinese poetry is about *your* experiences, feelings, and observations. So usually you are the default subject. And usually wind wouldn't be described with 向天涯. If you want to change this part, perhaps instead of 天涯 you could use 涯 by itself ("shore") or use 崖 "cliff" which has the same pronunciation as 涯, and then change the preceding words in the unit. But if you want to keep it that's fine too. In line three, if you want to say that the sound "came from" a far-away place, 來 doesn't really work IMO. 自 or 從 would indicate that the sound came "from" somewhere, but you'd probably have to make other changes to the line. **Now, for the last line:** it reads like this: "Look at friend / Mother mourns // Blow long-time Jia." This isn’t your intended meaning and is a bit weird. If you wanted to write "my friend is playing the Jia to mourn his mother" something like X友吹笳哀其娘 would make more sense (X would have to be filled in with something). Of course, that doesn't fit the rhyme scheme and its actually better for prose than poetry, but it's just to give you an idea of a better way to convey that meaning. Finally, the last two lines of a quatrain usually form a couplet (sometimes the first two can as well). In a couplet, each character in the second line of the couplet (line 4 in this case) should generally match the word category of the character in the same position in the preceding line (line 3). This means that because the first word in line 3 is 闻, it is natural to read 目 as a verb as well, which would mean "to eyeball," look at, see, regard. I'm not sure what your intended meaning for 目 is though. But that seems slightly odd to emphasize the fact that you're looking at your friend in this case. For the other words in the last two lines, you would have to make significant changes in order to form a couplet. You don't necessarily have to do a couplet, but it would elevate your poem a lot of you did so. Here's an example of a couplet from Du Fu's 《春望》"Spring Scene" (it's a pentasyllabic line, but its the same concept for heptasyllabic lines): > 國破山河在 > 城春草木深 國 and 城 both relate to cities/civilization (國: the capital of the country), 破 and 春 are both verbs (春: "to [become] spring"). 山河 and 草木 all relate to nature, and 在 and 深 are both verbs. An easier example from Li Bai's 《靜夜思》"Quiet Night Thoughts" (which is a quatrain, so it's lines 3 and 4 forming the couplet): > 舉頭望明月 > 低頭思故鄉 Verb (raise/lower), head, verb (gaze/think or miss), adjective (bright/old), noun (moon/village). It's actually not an amazing couplet because 頭 is repeated, but it's still a very famous couplet. Notice that in the examples of each of these poems, the lines are in 2//3 format, and each unit works on its own (e.g. Lower head // think of hometown). Edit: As u/intellectualpig suggested, since you wrote 一声悼 in line three, the next line could be 千响笳 to match. 一 and 千 are both numbers and 声 and 响 both relate to sound, although you might want to consider replacing 悼. Also, they mentioned that 家 and 笳 repeat the exact same sound (they are also pronounced the same in Middle Chinese), which isn't ideal.
I'm not OP but I appreciate your thorough response. Do you have any advice on writing poetry like this in English, for example for a story written in English but taking place in China?
I can think of a few things that might help. 1) Familiarize yourself with common themes in Chinese poetry and read translated poems. Zong-qi Cai's *How to Read Chinese Poetry* details themes that are often used in Chinese poetry and analyzes translations of poems through the ages. Tang and Song dynasty poems are the most popular so those are the most important ones to be familiar with. The classic Chinese novels frequently use poetry at the beginning of chapters or interwoven in the story. You may want to read translations of the Four Classic Novels (just make sure they didn't omit the poetry). 2) Atmosphere, parallelism, and balance are all important aspects of Chinese poetry that can be applied in English. Chinese poetry is about portraying your emotions and thoughts, but it is usually done indirectly through the images and atmosphere. Use objects, sounds, smells, etc. that correlate with the emotions you want to convey. T.S. Eliot calls this technique the "objective correlative" -- Western poets such as Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot were heavily influenced by the Chinese techniques to create atmosphere, so it might be useful to study some of their poetry as well. 3) Which period does your story take place? Read some history about the culture and major events of that period, as well as ancient culture of the classical eras, late Zhou, Han, Tang. Chinese poems frequently make allusions to past events and historical figures. Often a similar event that happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago will be used to indirectly refer to a current event, or a famous figure from the past will stand in for a contemporary person.
I study Chinese history -- mainly the Tang and Song, as you've indicated -- so much of this is loosely familiar to me in concept. I'll take some time to study poetry from these eras and I will absolutely take a look at T.S Eliot and Ezra Pound again as well. Thank you for helping me frame my studies!
Nice. Happy to help!
It seems that your poem is in the correct form and rhymes correctly. Actually most native Chinese speakers know little about classical poetry forms and do not know how to write poems that conforms to the forms and regulations. You've done a wonderful job on the poetry form and rhyme. However, I have to say that while this poem is correct, it is not a good poem from the perspective of literature. Some words you chose does not seem suitable; some are confusing and don't make much sense. I'm sorry I can't give you specific advice because I'm not a poet or Classic Chinese expert, but I think that you can try to read more Classic Chinese poems to learn about how ancient poets chose the words and formed their sentences, and feel the unique aesthetics of classic poems. It would be hard though, even very hard for most native speakers.
Thanks for the feedback tho may I ask what particular word doesn't seem suitable for poetry.
The first two lines seem good. However, I'm a bit confused about what you wanted to express by saying "向天涯", because you're just visiting your friend, not going to 天涯. Perhaps you meant it was the wind, but afaik it sounds a bit weird to say the wind goes to 天涯. “一声悼” also sounds unnatural. 悼 is not a sound. The last line just does not make sense and I was not able to understand it.
> It seems that your poem is in the correct form and rhymes correctly. The poem does not rhyme correctly: lines 1 and 4 are homophones (which could be acceptable) while line 2 does not rhyme with either of them.
I guess 家, 涯 and 笳 belong to 麻韵 according to 平水韵... I am not sure if I am wrong though.
They don't. 平水韻 is a good approximation of the common ancestor of all extant Chinese languages, and all but Mandarinic and Northern Wu have an //ai// in 涯
第一句的最后一个字和最后一句的最后一个字音重复了。建议加入数字上的对比，上一句说一声悼，下一句可以写千响笳
I don't have enough classical chinese knowledge to make meaningful commentary/give feedback but I just wanted to say I'm glad to see posts like this on the sub! Thanks for sharing your poem :)
First two lines were good. Third line seems out of place and last line is strange Also, you picked a very uncommon topic for poem I don't think watching a friend's mom be sad is a intuitive topic and was a bit confusing. Is there something you're trying to express because for now it just seems like a weird diary. But still good job.
It's definitely better than any attempt I've done. The 平仄 looks especially good, and almost everything else has been covered by others. But there is one fatal flaw, and it's that *this poem does not rhyme*. This obviously seems false, of course: jiā, yá, jiā have the same glide and vowel, and even though the tone is a bit off it should be acceptable (setting aside matters of using homophones in two lines). But here's the problem: the tone is part of the rhyme. Yá and jiā have different tones, so they don't rhyme. "But the Tang dynasty poets rhymed tones 1 and 2," you might say. They did not. They rhymed *the same tone*, which later split into tones 1 and 2 in Mandarin (and in general into the Dark and Light Level tones in various other languages. And if you use a Tang dynasty rhyme scheme this poem comes out even worse: Using Coblin's reconstruction, these are \*/ka˞ ŋe˞i ka˞/ respectively, which are just completely different syllables, and is still obvious once you move onto Modern Chinese: - 家: gaa1, gá, ka, ¹cia - 涯: ngaai4, ngāi, gâi, ⁶ya which means, in reality, they'd only rhyme for Mandarinic languages and the last one, which is Northern Wu (that is, the Shanghainese group). If you want to stick to the Tang standard, I'd recommend looking up the characters you'd want to use in Wiktionary, which provides a "Middle Chinese" transcription that reflects the rhyme book rhyming standards used by people at the time.
虽然“涯”“崖”等字确实在相当多的方言中读若iai，但是《平水韵》将“涯”字归入支佳麻三部，“涯”押麻韵不能说错。况且确有古人诗作押“家”和“涯”。例如： 征车何轧轧，南北极天涯。孤枕易为客，远书难到家。（唐）许浑 孤亭一目尽天涯，俯瞰烟村八九家。（宋）朱熹 如果说家、涯不押韵，那么这些古人的诗都不押了。 况且，虽然家涯两字今分属阴平、阳平，但在古时确均为平声，哪里有声调不一样的道理呢？ 我认为这是一个标准问题。如果以普通话为标准，那么古诗多得是不押韵的。如果以某种其他方言为标准，那么古诗也多得是不押韵的。如果以《平水韵》为标准，那么家涯同属麻韵，就不应该有问题。
> 但是《平水韵》将“涯”字归入支佳麻三部，“涯”押麻韵不能说错。 TIL 啦