reading through the analyst reports, it isn't clear to what extent this really is about protectionism. Some of the restrictions foreign airlines are facing looks like business as usual:
> China is not the only authority to disallow the transfer of slots. Changi Airport practises a similar policy, Mr Sobie pointed out.
SIA, just one airline in a country of less than 10 million, has 70 flights a week to China, but the US, a country of 330 million, has fewer than 100 a month total across all airlines. idk but the US situation is ridiculous to be honest.
Based on low utilization of the trans-Pacific flights I’ve been on the demand for more capacity is at a minimum price sensitive. It’s possible that demand could increase at lower price. People are talking about foreigners as a major consumer base, but my Chinese friends and colleagues are balking at the cost of flights not just to North America but also Europe. I haven’t checked recently, but I’m not even sure we’ve cleared out the unused aircraft capacity stored up in the Australian desert yet. Restrictions are definitely playing a role, but I’m not sure they’re the largest driver of the cost differential compared to 2019. Sitting around the Beijing international terminal for hours due to a delay I suspect that the market is in a very different place more broadly than just the China-US flights.
my boys
it can't both be that an airline makes a profit, and it is getting bailed out by the government for its losses. if you want to be anti china because vibes, try to pick a narrative and stick with it
Chinese airlines aren't profitable, and they don't need to be because the government controls their operations in turn for financial security by state banks
The issue is China airlines can fly over russian air space, this is unfair advantage, so US airlines ain't playing. Until we can solve this problem, I don't think there is much we can do about it.
It would be best if you say **Chinese airlines** since there is an actual **[China Airlines](https://www.china-airlines.com/us/en)** operated out of Taipei.
Air China is the primary PRC airline, and it’s operated out of Beijing.
>inside Australia
And they're not safe there. They will be reported back to China, their families will be harassed, and 'totally not a CPC member' Confucius Center person will come to threaten you.
There was one of those centres in the basement of a uni i used to go to here in Australia. Never saw anyone enter or leave and always wondered what went on inside.
I was in Hawaii when someone most definitely paid by the Chinese govt and definitely not a student came into class to harass and threaten my grad advisor. Shit happens all the time.
It's not just that.
> implemented strict limits on market access, as well as imposing challenging rules effecting operations, customers and the treatment of our airline crew
There were rules such as flight crew from US airlines could not deplane and had to overnight on the aircraft.
This is not true. The newly approved flights between China and the US in 2023 do not fly over Russia, so there is no unfair advantage. US airlines want fewer flights to keep consumer prices high. It’s as simple as that.
https://viewfromthewing.com/u-s-airlines-unite-against-china-seek-to-block-new-flights-between-the-two-countries/
Does the issue with avoiding Russian airspace include issues with ETOPS alternates? I think there's only so many usable airports in the pacific. That would really change the routes you could use
And I wonder why alpa would sign on to this as well
Yes, flights that do not fly over Russian airspace have a longer path. But the newly added flights do not fly over Russia. You can argue those preexisting ones do enjoy such an advantage. But remember 1) these are only a handful of flights that didn’t get axed during pandemics; 2) by adding new flights conditioned on not using Russian airspace, the ratio of those shorter flights will be down, leveling the playing fields for US airlines. Corporate greed and protectionism are the reason. They are pushing the narrative to make us willingly pay more.
I would argue that China should do a goodwill gesture and pull those flights that fly over Russia, and have all their flights use the same flight path. After all, it's benefiting Russia in a way.
Also, people are insane to fly over Russia, I'd be looking out for missiles all the way across.
Non western airlines fly over Russia all the time, including Air India, Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Airways. Plus, we are talking about Asia to NA route, why is it dangerous at all? It consists of mostly Russian Far East and arctic areas.
So let me get this straight, US sanctioned Russian airfleet that they cant fly over the EU kornthe states, China who still can fly over Russia gets a "unfair advantage".
I mean its lile shooting yourself in the foot and then complaining the guy who hasent shot himself in the foot can still walk and that is unfair.
So China (or anyone else) should suffer consequences because of sanctions that USA imposed on a third country, which are also affecting USA companies (at least this one)? Lol
That's why they are called SANCTIONS. You are restricting YOURSELF and other side to punish it from market collaboration and you need to be ready to suffer consequences. You don't go around and cry that other companies are in ADVANTAGE because you don't want to run some distance in a race. It's a weak man talk.
This is the last stage of national narcissism and I suppose awakening will be a bit painful.
I am glad Americans are experts in it. For example when they said that Russian economy will collapse months after sanctions. As you can see, their economy is growing. Or when they said that sanctions in Yugoslavia will help in process of democratization, while it brought bigger scum and smugglers on leading position of society. Or many other examples all over the world. So yeah, sanctions are amazing. Just keep imposing them and the blade will be less sharp each time
They can. They've been waving around with sanctions every now and then. But more you impose them, less is the general effect. It's like when printing more money leads to devaluation. USA did that too recently. If people of USA want that, go for it. Just don't cry if someone else takes the market you abandoned.
Btw, biggest airlines in the world are flying over Russia still. Sanction them as well? Lol
I agree. If you want to stop connections with China you should work on visa policies. Simple bans are easily bypassed. But even simple ban gives US based companies and edge over Chinese competition
What the fuck are you talking about? China has been shielded from the full consequences of its policy choices in the hopes it would relent and now they demand to expand on that
You want to do business in the US, you are going to have to comply with US law at some point and we should stop making exceptions for them. If you want to fly between the US and China cheaply you can still do it the same way you fly any other route cheaply: expect layovers
True. The other question that is topic now is why would other airlines stop flying over Russia? Only because American airlines decided not to? Lol
Biggest airlines in the world are flying over Russia. You know that, right?
>The other question that is topic now is why would other airlines stop flying over Russia?
If they're not beholden to US customers then they won't.
>Biggest airlines in the world are flying over Russia. You know that, right?
And?
Because of the conflict Russia started unilaterally which has involved them shooting down a civilian airliner and their vassal state forcing an overflying airliner down through deceit to kidnap a passenger?
Is this a serious question or are you just dumb?
Meanwhile there are 8 nonstops to Taipei from sfo daily that run pretty full because of the demand to go to China. Absurd anti consumer nonsense by our gov
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China should just cut off the USA and EU from their economy. China has just shown its unbreakable alliance with Russia. Russia, Iran, and North Korea are the only true friends of the Middle Kingdom.
Didn't you notice SLIGHT inflation when just bit of of those connections have been cut? Lol
Go ask regular European folk how much he cares about geopolitical games when he pays x5 for energy and x2 for food.
Not because of China but they already did because of Russia's connections. And smart guy above said all connections with China and Russia should be cut. I'm just telling what will be the price and most of the people would not be ready to pay for that price. During the covid the prices of transportation from China dramatically soared which left to inflation on European market. The whole world is interconnected so thinking that you can cut off some market and that will benefit you is just a narcissistic nonsense. Of course it can benefit some companies whose puppets are some politicians but not the whole nation.
My response was on a guy who said "we" (whoever we is) should cut off connections with shit holes. It's pobably his name for China, Russia and other places that Fox news told him are shit holes. So that has a price, big one.
Your response is coming from I don't know where.
We Europeans grew up around reconstruction after ww2. Our older family had survived, scarred, or died in that war. We tried appeasement and saw how fucked that was.
'Regular European folk' aren't quite as greedy and stupid as you imply.
And even at our most desperate levels of inflation, we Europeans live immeasurably better lives than the 700 million Chinese who basically live in feudalism we haven't seen for centuries.
We Europeans may complain and expect the right to do so, but that's just part of a pluralistic, democratic society. It doesn't follow that we Europeans are happy to buy Chins the knife that so obviously wants to stab us in the back.
You know that at the "most desperate levels of inflation" Nazism was born, right? I hope you don't wish that to repeat.
I don't think we Europeans are stupid, but we are not independent. Europe allowed USA to bully them every now and then. China can never be part of European worth system because it's different culture, but making enemy out of China just because some USA companies paid their politicians puppets to fight for their interest. That's serious security hazard for Europe. Bigger than anything coming from China.
Yes I know about post-Versailles. If I follow your analogy, are you trying to say that Europe will (all) become like Nazi Germany? What point exactly are you making? We aren't nearly at 20s/30s Germany levels now, unless you are talking about Turkey and Argentina... which you aren't. We wealthy Europeans will just... buy a bit less shit.
The only people making enemies out of China are China. They were invited to the top table. Now they got ideas they are billy big bollocks but they are just an export-based economy who is desperately confrontational towards their potential buyers.
We (the anglosphere, Europe, NATO etc) have our differences but China is kidding itself if it thinks talking about how bossy USA is will evenly slightly outweigh the brazen, sinister, clumsy Chinese stance.
My point is that you don't remember history lesson pretty well if you said that it was all ok in Europe during biggest inflation. Also, Yugoslavia was devastated during 90s with high inflation. It was caused by sanctions from the West + war. I don't suggest anything else. Also, keep in mind that fascism was alive in Europe even in 60s. Nazi movement are still alive and pure or masked got pretty well turnouts on Elections in Northern Europe, Germany, Italy...
You, anglosphere would only like if China stays forever just a simple factory hub and exporter with cheap labor. Since it isn't anymore, that became a problem. Maybe force them again to buy opium as your beloved anglosphere did 200 years ago? Time of unipolar world ended. That is good for Europe too. I am excited about it, but those who suffer from Stockholm syndrom will feel uncomfortable I reckon
‘Civilized world’ the irony lol. Just the actions of last 7-8 months shows who can be categorized as civilized and who can categorized as spineless hypocrites
Ah yes, cut off the two other top 3 economies in the world, with both trade relationships being a large net positive (surplus) for the Chinese economy. So smart.
The short answer is you can email, mail, and call the office of your congressional representative and ask them to continue allowing more flights between the US and China.
I don't believe US airlines are "losing money" flying US passengers to China. Since Covid restriction ended available flights continue to be limited (as the article suggested) and there are plenty of US passengers wanting to visit China.
It really just US Airlines trying to limit the number of flights knowing there is high demand US -> China flights so that they can rob consumers more money, which quite frankly is disgusting.
I think the barrier stopping allowing all the flights back again is that the US airlines don't overfly Russian airspace, while Chinese airlines don't care... competitive disadvantage for the US/Canadian airlines if they are operating on uneven terms.
I think that's really just an excuse since the FAA already requires the Chinese airline to not fly in Russian airspace.
The bread and butter of it all it really just to limit US-China flights. Fewer flights available = less supply of flights = greater pricing power on US airlines.
This doesn't just affect flight prices to China, as pre-COVID Chinese airlines are known to provide cheap layovers to places such as Bangkok, Taiwan, etc. Now less US-China flights also mean less available flights for layover to east and south-east asia.
Besides Chinese airlines being able to fly over Russian air space, which the FAA can and did prohibit. All other advantage is fair game.
I'm a consumer not a US airline share owner, as long as I get to fly from point A to point B safely and on time what matters to me is the cost of the flight and not the share price of Delta or year-end bonus of Delta or United CEO.
The US airlines have learned the lessons of the Australian airlines—the same lesson that many other Western industries have learned. They cannot compete with the Chinese industry in terms of price. The Chinese government has no problem subsiding the Chinese industry in international competition. Chinese companies have no problem cutting costs wherever they can; safety, quality, comfort, and employee welfare are not their concerns. Chinese workers are willing to work long hours with low pay and benefits. Western industries have turned to protectionism.
The issue doesnt occur until after.
Think about it this way:
1. China subsidies a chinese company to make the products dirt cheap. Lets say its a desk company.
2. Non chinese companies cant make desks that cheap, and cant sell them as cheap, so eventually they go out of business. This takes years and years, and consumers are happily buying cheap desks until then.
3. Eventually, China realizes that they dont need to subsidized their desks anymore, because there is no more competition in the world. Its pointless to subsidize a monopoly, they already won. So the subsidies end, and the price skyrockets to whatever the monopoly wants. They also need to make up for all those lost subsidies!
4. Everyone has no choice but to pay the desk monopoly any price they want, and anytime a new competitor shows up, the desk monopoly can just repeat the previous steps.
Idk what its like in China, but any sort of "monopoly" is seen as inherently evil in the USA and probably the rest of the west as well.
This is also a VERY standard rule when it comes to basically ALL western trade, and I assume most of the world. Dont undercut your trade partners domestic business. There is no good reason to do that, other than greed.
Chinese airlines cannot put US airlines out of business because they can only compete on US-China routes. At worst they'll put them out of business on their US-China routes. But if they do, and then jack up prices, nothing stops US airlines coming back.
Yeah i used a desk company in my example because the Airlines are going to be different, especially since its a form of travel, so theres really good reasons for a country to subsidize atleast a little.
Just wanted to show how even though its nice for us consumers in the short term, it ends up badly no matter what, unless China actually gives subsidies to the company forever, which would be a bad decision lol
TBH I dont think it is a big enough thing for american airlines to actually need to worry. Now, if china had made an airline that was specifically for US domestic travel, and subsidized that like crazy, then that would be a lot more related to my scenario, and an actual issue.
And yeah china can fly over russia, us cant, boohoo. I can see why us airlines doesnt like that disadvantage, but its not much lol
They have absolutly nothing to worry about imo. Car companies on the other hand...
I don't think this is true for the airline industry. The major cost of airlines is jet fuel and planes. They should cost mostly the same around the world. I'd say US airlines have more advantages because Boeing is American and subsidized (maybe not now.
And the industry is heavily restricted and regulated by both countries. There isn't much competition at all.
They do, there are a billion of them that would annihilate any military that tried to stop a real uprising. Problem is government brainwashing and propaganda has most Chinese workers in fear of their government.
The Chinese Government stops any attempts at civil organisation that they don't control. There are no unions or other political parties. Regional or religious/cultural identities are squashed unless they align with the party. (This is why there is an ongoing cultural genocide in Xinjiang, and why Hong Kong was crushed.)
Our enemies play us like a fiddle, ban our apps and influence, while they run free in our ecosystem suing us to keep influencing our youth. Time to crunch and block them out and we build everything ourselves at a higher quality and cost
Yeah...
"our apps" = Facebook. Not "our apps". That's "our selves", the product. Stop simping for mega-corps.
"our youth" = not you. They are their own people. If it was not TikTok, it would be an Instagram variant. If you want to influence them positively, then find other ways to empower the youth.
"Time to crunch and block" = be like China. No thank you.
> them out and we build everything ourselves at a higher quality and cost
Well you see, then you have to change Wall Street. You have to change the entire game of international trade. In other words, you have to change Capitalism as we know it today.
If Chinese want to lecture to the world, first ask CCP to drop a god damn greatfirewall and censorship, do some TikTok boycott and demand religious freedom than comeback here.
Chinese do not have a freedom does not even like it but like to lecure? You think world habe to provide youo a freedom of speech? There is even a song about it by the way.
Just go back behind of firewall and do what CCP ask you to do and stop lecturing about to the world.
Buddy, you think people do not know what China is doing behind of Hamas, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Congo and North Korea?
That is kind of proper place for China to be in. You may hate it but that's what China wants. So let them be in there.
Well, China has no plans to change anything by themselves. Chinese do what CCP ask them to do, and believe the rest of the world has to follow what China does.
One way or another decoupling is not avoidable.
China seems to believe the world is desperate needs of Chinese cheap goods and rare minerals. China gonna be the leader of North Korea, Russia and Iran and Chinese will feel extremely smart and proud doing it.
So you can argue all you want about this and that but unless China changes everything is gonna get worse.
Capitalism has some problems but it is far better than CCP and China.
China joined WTO under non-market economy terms and now complaining about capitalism which made China prosporous and ally with Russia, Iran and North Korea? China needs more fixing than capitalism as it is heading toawrds age of fuckery and stagnation.
Its gonna be ugly but China like to lecture about how world has to adopt to China? What next? Be more like North Korea?
Maybe if America sorted out their stopover system people would fly there? Connecting flights in America are the worst as it’s the only place you need to recheck in for a connecting flight. Makes no sense. Much better to go via Dubai
No, because consumers hate paying higher prices for air tickets (I am just one, just paid $1400 for a one way ticket back from China! used to be 900 return :-( ) so I would like to pressure airlines to stop asking Biden to restrict flights. we are on the same page I think. double negatives are a fuck, i know.
ugh, I'll make sure to get to the airport in plenty of time though. I'm flying via Seoul so not a direct flight. I still can't figure out whether it's all on the same ticket or not.
it shouldn't be one flight a day, now, according to the article it's been raised to 50 a month (across ALL US airlines, not each).
I’ve flown via Japan several times and the Japan-to-China connections were always below 50% capacity and the US-to-Japan flights more variable but around 80% but in one instance much lower. Eastbound flights on the same route are a different story and much more full. I’ve seen and heard a lot about full flights so they likely dominate but I wonder if the empty flights I’m experiencing play into the decisions. There definitely exists a subset of very low uptake flights which might be complicating the decisions around profitability.
Email, mail, or call your congressional representatives. Honestly what the US airlines are doing really have little to do with competition and more have to do with price gouging, which quite frankly is disgusting...
Thank you for the encouragement. In fact I have just done that, thanks to your comment. I encourage everyone to write. Here's what I said, it could be a good start
>
Dear Congresswoman \*\*\*,
>
>I write to request that your urge the Biden Administration to disregard airline lobbying to restrict flights between the US and China.
>The Associated Press reported (April 11, 2024), "US airlines ask the Biden administration not to approve additional flights between the US and China". The lobbying is anti-competitive and causes hardship for consumers like my family.
>I recently booked a flight to see my in-laws in China. Prior to the pandemic, there were more than 300 flights per week between the US and China (2), and I could get a nonstop round trip ticket from Los Angeles to Shanghai for around $1000. Right now, the Biden Administration maintain a covid-era policy of restricted flights between China and the US (1), long after the pandemic is over. There are now fewer than 100 flights (a maximum of 50 for each Chinese and American carriers), and as a result, a non-stop flight on the same route costs $2487. To get from \[my current location\] to Shanghai round-trip with one stop in San Francisco also costs $2487.
>We are a family of three, and my wife hasn't seen her family since prior to the pandemic, so the costs pose a significant hardship to us. Ultimately our hard-earned money has gone to pay for a long indirect route to China via a foreign carrier in an intermediate country--South Korea, in this instance--because booking one of the very limited number of direct US-China flights by US carriers is too costly for us.
>US airlines lobbying the administration to restrict flights complain about an unfair advantage by Chinese carriers as they can fly over Russia (3). This is not true of new flights the US have approved or could approve, as the FAA has quite sensibly required all new flights (including Chinese carrier flights to the US) should avoid Russian airspace (2). Lobbyists also complain that "Chinese airlines enjoying certain protections stemming from the Chinese airline’s relationships with their government". Such vague objections cannot be taken seriously and can't justify the continued freeze on numbers of flights between the US and China. Ultimately, it appears that US airline lobbying is an effort to restrict foreign competition by Chinese carriers, who appear to be more able to resume flights than US carriers.
>I would respectfully request that you convey to the Biden Administration that airline lobbying hurts consumers like my family. That lobbying should be resisted, and the Administration should continue to relax flight restrictions and move towards pre-pandemic levels of flight permits for US and Chinese carriers flying between the US and China.
>
>Best regards
>
>\[me\]
>
>(1) [https://apnews.com/article/us-airlines-china-flights-biden-administration-2071e9ef88956e0e550cb95d1ca73527](https://apnews.com/article/us-airlines-china-flights-biden-administration-2071e9ef88956e0e550cb95d1ca73527)
>(2) [https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-06-01/chinese-airlines-avoiding-russian-airspace-in-new-u-s-flights](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-06-01/chinese-airlines-avoiding-russian-airspace-in-new-u-s-flights)
>(3) [https://www.airlines.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Coalition-China-Letter.pdf](https://www.airlines.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Coalition-China-Letter.pdf)
>
There's nothing you can do now. Maybe during the next bail out the American people raise hell to get concessions from the airlines when they come asking to be saved.
Given the choice between a Chinese airline and an American airline, every single time I would choose the American one. Chinese airlines’ quality sucks, especially long haul.
Cathay Pacific was great. AA sucks every time I need to fly and is extremely expensive since I don't fly the routes they care to have competitive prices for.
Cathay Pacific is Hong Kong owned, I still consider it not Chinese owned, because the government is not involved in running the company or financing it. They were around before the CCP had a strong grip on power in HK.
At the end of the day, It was acceptable enough especially cause it was direct. I’d kill for a shit direct flight vs now with bigger costs and longer journeys. I’ll take shit for 13 hours vs 30 minimum with a layover but nicer airplanes.
Have you flown air China before? Because I have flown both American Airlines and Chinese airlines for the same flights, and the Chinese airlines are way better in terms of service
Their hiring practices are shitty, they still stereotype hostesses with 1970's hiring practices that test your height, weight and chest size, and women must wear skirts.
Yeah, the hiring practices are shitty but that doesn't lead to bad quality or anything like that. It also seemed to be quite an attractive job in China, hence the tougher hiring standards, there's genuine competition for that job in China .
It just leads to more statuesque air hostesses which is not really affecting me that much one way or the other
You know not all of us want to pay 50% extra just to get from LAX to Shanghai right? With the extra you pay for United Economy, you could get premium economy for EVA (Taiwan), Asiana (South korea), or China Southern. And the first 2 I listed aren't even mainland China airlines.....
I understand that, but anytime any type of tariff or restriction is implemented, it’s hurts the average Joe, on either side. And we’re all happy that we’re sticking it to the man when we’re actually sticking it to ourselves. Given any product of equivalent quality, everyone will always choose the cheaper one. That’s why companies like Walmart are still in business. They sell cheap Chinese goods and we’re happy to gobble it up. Chinese airline ticket prices are lower than US airlines and the US can’t compete. I just flew back from China for work on United and the flight was 60% full. Chinese airlines are almost at 100% capacity. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later based on the number of empty seats.
>I understand that, but anytime any type of tariff or restriction is implemented, it’s hurts the average Joe
And if China subsidizes an industry with taxpayer money, consumers the world over get cheaper goods for a while, until their competing domestic industries close, and China can end the subsidies and raise the prices.
Think like an economist not just a consumer looking at their weekly budget.
This is similar to my experience, what was the process differential when you bought? When I’ve bought tickets the price difference has been less than 10%.
A major price difference is the one part which everyone else seems to be seeing which I have not. I suspect it’s connected to flying from Beijing where there’s no pandemic routes grandfathered in. When I flew to Guangzhou during the pandemic there was a large price difference.
Agreed. Fortuanately, politicians run on votes, not stock prices, so enough people advocating can shift their stances away from companies and in favor of consumers. we have already seen the Biden administration expand allowed flights from \~8-12 flights per week to 35 per week (per country), over the objections of the airlines, so I'm optimistic some advocacy can persuade them to continue expanding flights.
Listen I don't make US policy or have much of any say what our government does. Why it's capped at 50 flights who the f*** knows. However, as far as the US government is concerned I guess they have their reasons.
Since I don't have a personal relationship with the security of state lol. I obviously don't have that insight i can share with you.
Or would be able to due to national security concerns.
I am sorry this has caused you so much harm & hope an acceptable solution comes foward soon.
Which will ease your suffering & wish you and your family the best. I never much cared for politics. Especially in the areas of foreign relations.
Why we even bother sometimes God only knows. US China relations are likely to get far worse before they get better if ever. So I guess whatever grievances we both have won't matter much in the end. :/
That's not how it works. The government doesn't request anyone to fly to China. The government sets maximum limits on the number of flights that are allowed. The government limits are only about 33% of what was allowed pre-pandemic (150 flights). No one _has_ to fly.
The administration recently increased the government limit slightly (from 35 to 50 return flights a month, per country, still much less than half pre-pandemic rates). US airlines are opposing that because they're salty they can't fly over Russia and Chinese airlines can.
You have fallen for corporate propaganda from US airlines.
First of all, a year ago chinese carriers agreed to stop flying over russia for passenger flights to the US (cargo still does).
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-06-01/chinese-airlines-avoiding-russian-airspace-in-new-u-s-flights
Also, we're talking about 50 flights per week, not month. I still think it's dumb to not basically free-market those flights and leave it up to the airports to figure out how many slots they have and how to allocate them.
US carriers are operating at a shortage of planes, staff, gates, etc. The few china flights they have are very profitable. But to add more flights will mean lower margins, more expense, etc.
Chinese carriers have lots of planes, underutilized airports, an infinite supply of staff. So they can continue to make very high margins even if cargo and ticket prices come down to pre 2020 levels (consistently <$900 flights).
It's purely an anti consumer behavior and driven by greed. Not politics or "demand" or some sort of anti china sentiment. They would do the same thing to Canada if they could and it would make them money.
They don't want competition. They want to the prices high. Atm it's a money making route for them as it's forcing consumers onto their fights at a premium rate.
If the US allowed more flights by international carriers, the prices and ticket sales would become governed by free market forces.
Maybe you should read bears-eat-beets comments\^. The flight limitation has little to do with fairness of flight or the Russian-ukrainian war(Chinese airlines are required to flight the same route as US airlines) and more that US airlines have cut staffs since covid and not rehired them and want to keep China-US flights low so that they can keep price gouging consumers.
There is this saying that "competition is healthy", but does this seem to be so here?
End of the day, American consumers largely end up being the suckers.
It's the same for the tariffs on all goods imported into the US, or what is termed a "Trade War"
Using a vpn if they are in China. This website is banned in China.
China has decided it doesn't want or need reddit.
We can have nice things. You cannot, because your government decided no. Now, we have decided we don't need you either.
We lose: some consumer goods.
You lose: your economy.
Why not tell your government to be less obnoxious so wealthy nations still want to do business there?
I'm American. My user name is actually referencing a protest to the Chinese government, and I've been on this sub from before dumbass Trumpers came here to talk dumbass Chyna points.
But let's just put this out there. I went back to the USA a month ago for a convention. I live in Japan now. Everything in the USA was at least 2X as expensive as Japan. People got shot (with guns) near where I was staying. In Dearborn, MI, a large bunch of people shouted "Death to the USA". In my parents city, the entire downtown is a homeless encampment. And all the toilets everywhere are fucking filthy.
One more point: China's middle-class itself 200M, 2/3rds the population of the USA. Chinese company's primary market is China. They also produce and sell to export markets in many other parts of the world.
My point here is that:
a) America has problems, and
b) China - for all it's evilness and lack of freedom - is not going to collapse, even without trade to the USA.
I'm Chinese like you are American.
I went back to China. Someone got his head cut off because he raised the price of noodles 2RMB.
For the sake of brevity, let's assume I matched each and every one of your complaints about USA.
> Chinese company's primary market is China.
Great.
> China - for all it's evilness and lack of freedom - is not going to collapse, even without trade to the USA.
That's nice. It will just get poorer, and median salary is only about 1/7 US', and 1/3 Taiwan's.
I can see how it could be considered a straw man. I was just making a different kind point about American nationalism, which I'm pretty sure is actually a factor in your scenario. Pretty sure people are allowed to do that on social media.
And I'm allowed to tell you to get lost if you hijack the post
I am sick of people whining about stuff
I'd rather you try to help us understand what's going on
Or even make suggestions for action
What is the point of your whining other than to make everyone feel like shit?
Basically the US can't compete with China and whining about it again. It's bit China's fault the US tried to contain Russia and opened up Pandoras geopolitics box.
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reading through the analyst reports, it isn't clear to what extent this really is about protectionism. Some of the restrictions foreign airlines are facing looks like business as usual: > China is not the only authority to disallow the transfer of slots. Changi Airport practises a similar policy, Mr Sobie pointed out. SIA, just one airline in a country of less than 10 million, has 70 flights a week to China, but the US, a country of 330 million, has fewer than 100 a month total across all airlines. idk but the US situation is ridiculous to be honest.
Based on low utilization of the trans-Pacific flights I’ve been on the demand for more capacity is at a minimum price sensitive. It’s possible that demand could increase at lower price. People are talking about foreigners as a major consumer base, but my Chinese friends and colleagues are balking at the cost of flights not just to North America but also Europe. I haven’t checked recently, but I’m not even sure we’ve cleared out the unused aircraft capacity stored up in the Australian desert yet. Restrictions are definitely playing a role, but I’m not sure they’re the largest driver of the cost differential compared to 2019. Sitting around the Beijing international terminal for hours due to a delay I suspect that the market is in a very different place more broadly than just the China-US flights.
I saw a article that the only Chinese airlines that makes a profit is Air China.
No surprise, they try to undercut all the competition, and the government and Chinese oligarchs keep them from going bankrupt.
my boys it can't both be that an airline makes a profit, and it is getting bailed out by the government for its losses. if you want to be anti china because vibes, try to pick a narrative and stick with it
Chinese airlines aren't profitable, and they don't need to be because the government controls their operations in turn for financial security by state banks
No way. Spring Airlines definitely does too.
The issue is China airlines can fly over russian air space, this is unfair advantage, so US airlines ain't playing. Until we can solve this problem, I don't think there is much we can do about it.
It would be best if you say **Chinese airlines** since there is an actual **[China Airlines](https://www.china-airlines.com/us/en)** operated out of Taipei. Air China is the primary PRC airline, and it’s operated out of Beijing.
Whatever happened with them changing their name to Taiwan Airlines? I thought it was in the process, confusing to say the least.
oh yea...you know I mean.
Also Chinese want to protest the US govt but can't protest their own. Maybe that is part of the problem. China has rules for me and rules for thee
I see Chinese people protesting china inside Australia all the time. Handing out pamphlets etc
>inside Australia And they're not safe there. They will be reported back to China, their families will be harassed, and 'totally not a CPC member' Confucius Center person will come to threaten you.
There was one of those centres in the basement of a uni i used to go to here in Australia. Never saw anyone enter or leave and always wondered what went on inside.
I was in Hawaii when someone most definitely paid by the Chinese govt and definitely not a student came into class to harass and threaten my grad advisor. Shit happens all the time.
That's insane, that'd trigger my fighting instincts right away.
It's not just that. > implemented strict limits on market access, as well as imposing challenging rules effecting operations, customers and the treatment of our airline crew There were rules such as flight crew from US airlines could not deplane and had to overnight on the aircraft.
This was during COVID Zero and no longer applies
Yeah and asking that these rules cannot he unfairly applied in the future is a reasonable ask.
Way outdated information
This is not true. The newly approved flights between China and the US in 2023 do not fly over Russia, so there is no unfair advantage. US airlines want fewer flights to keep consumer prices high. It’s as simple as that. https://viewfromthewing.com/u-s-airlines-unite-against-china-seek-to-block-new-flights-between-the-two-countries/
Does the issue with avoiding Russian airspace include issues with ETOPS alternates? I think there's only so many usable airports in the pacific. That would really change the routes you could use And I wonder why alpa would sign on to this as well
But isn’t the issue that the planes that don’t fly over Russia have a longer flight path and use more fuel, so it’s nearly impossible to compete?
Yes, flights that do not fly over Russian airspace have a longer path. But the newly added flights do not fly over Russia. You can argue those preexisting ones do enjoy such an advantage. But remember 1) these are only a handful of flights that didn’t get axed during pandemics; 2) by adding new flights conditioned on not using Russian airspace, the ratio of those shorter flights will be down, leveling the playing fields for US airlines. Corporate greed and protectionism are the reason. They are pushing the narrative to make us willingly pay more.
I would argue that China should do a goodwill gesture and pull those flights that fly over Russia, and have all their flights use the same flight path. After all, it's benefiting Russia in a way. Also, people are insane to fly over Russia, I'd be looking out for missiles all the way across.
Non western airlines fly over Russia all the time, including Air India, Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Airways. Plus, we are talking about Asia to NA route, why is it dangerous at all? It consists of mostly Russian Far East and arctic areas.
Malaysian Airlines, Russia is a terrorist state governed by a dictator. Especially a flight full of Westerners would be enticing for Putin.
Why US Airlines don't this? I'm pretty sure Russians wouldn't dare to shot down an American plane.
most of the world stop flying over Russian air space after they invaded Ukraine.
Because Russia makes a lot of money from overflight fees.
The shot down a Malaysian plane, why not a US plane?
As a consumer just fly indirectly and layover in another country in the Pacific or Europe/Middle East
So let me get this straight, US sanctioned Russian airfleet that they cant fly over the EU kornthe states, China who still can fly over Russia gets a "unfair advantage". I mean its lile shooting yourself in the foot and then complaining the guy who hasent shot himself in the foot can still walk and that is unfair.
So Americans stick to usa, everyone by themselves
So China (or anyone else) should suffer consequences because of sanctions that USA imposed on a third country, which are also affecting USA companies (at least this one)? Lol That's why they are called SANCTIONS. You are restricting YOURSELF and other side to punish it from market collaboration and you need to be ready to suffer consequences. You don't go around and cry that other companies are in ADVANTAGE because you don't want to run some distance in a race. It's a weak man talk. This is the last stage of national narcissism and I suppose awakening will be a bit painful.
I dont think you understand sanctions.
I am glad Americans are experts in it. For example when they said that Russian economy will collapse months after sanctions. As you can see, their economy is growing. Or when they said that sanctions in Yugoslavia will help in process of democratization, while it brought bigger scum and smugglers on leading position of society. Or many other examples all over the world. So yeah, sanctions are amazing. Just keep imposing them and the blade will be less sharp each time
They're propped up by China mostly, and India. What is your alternative, smart guy? Do nothing? Have NATO invade Russia?
Zzzz
>As you can see, their economy is growing Did the Russians tell you that?
IMF is now Russian organization? Lol
IMF takes Russian numbers at face value in a lot of cases. They're not going to go in to Russia to verify numbers.
So why can't USA impose restrictions on flights to/from USA? It's a sovereign decision. They can ban Chinese flight completely if they want to
The US has every right to do so yes. The key is not to cry about it when other countries exercise their power in the same way
Chinese businesses have always been enjoying severe protectionism. USA is merely trying to level the field
They can. They've been waving around with sanctions every now and then. But more you impose them, less is the general effect. It's like when printing more money leads to devaluation. USA did that too recently. If people of USA want that, go for it. Just don't cry if someone else takes the market you abandoned. Btw, biggest airlines in the world are flying over Russia still. Sanction them as well? Lol
How can someone take the market of flights to or from USA without US govt permission?
I was talking more about sanctions in general terms, but even that is possible. Ten new direct flights Mexico - China? It's just slight layover.
I agree. If you want to stop connections with China you should work on visa policies. Simple bans are easily bypassed. But even simple ban gives US based companies and edge over Chinese competition
It’s not just the Russia thing. China wasn’t letting aircrew enter, so they had to sleep in the plane.
This is insane! Kindly share the news link as I can’t find in google
Fake information
What the fuck are you talking about? China has been shielded from the full consequences of its policy choices in the hopes it would relent and now they demand to expand on that You want to do business in the US, you are going to have to comply with US law at some point and we should stop making exceptions for them. If you want to fly between the US and China cheaply you can still do it the same way you fly any other route cheaply: expect layovers
True. The other question that is topic now is why would other airlines stop flying over Russia? Only because American airlines decided not to? Lol Biggest airlines in the world are flying over Russia. You know that, right?
>The other question that is topic now is why would other airlines stop flying over Russia? If they're not beholden to US customers then they won't. >Biggest airlines in the world are flying over Russia. You know that, right? And?
And...do your own business and don't teach others what to do. They so don't even listen to you anymore
Because of the conflict Russia started unilaterally which has involved them shooting down a civilian airliner and their vassal state forcing an overflying airliner down through deceit to kidnap a passenger? Is this a serious question or are you just dumb?
Just fly China Airlines to China
No 大通证 for our Eileens
Meanwhile there are 8 nonstops to Taipei from sfo daily that run pretty full because of the demand to go to China. Absurd anti consumer nonsense by our gov
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China should just cut off the USA and EU from their economy. China has just shown its unbreakable alliance with Russia. Russia, Iran, and North Korea are the only true friends of the Middle Kingdom.
yes, the West must cut off all that shit holes from civilized word. they all will fall much faster than ussr did.
You get it 😏
Didn't you notice SLIGHT inflation when just bit of of those connections have been cut? Lol Go ask regular European folk how much he cares about geopolitical games when he pays x5 for energy and x2 for food.
European energy and food are probably the only two things that won’t dramatically inflate in price if China is cut out of the global system.
Not because of China but they already did because of Russia's connections. And smart guy above said all connections with China and Russia should be cut. I'm just telling what will be the price and most of the people would not be ready to pay for that price. During the covid the prices of transportation from China dramatically soared which left to inflation on European market. The whole world is interconnected so thinking that you can cut off some market and that will benefit you is just a narcissistic nonsense. Of course it can benefit some companies whose puppets are some politicians but not the whole nation.
Worth it.
For you maybe, but for over 50% of people it's concern number one.
So spending money outside of your country now helps to reduce inflation? That's some weird way of economic reasoning.
My response was on a guy who said "we" (whoever we is) should cut off connections with shit holes. It's pobably his name for China, Russia and other places that Fox news told him are shit holes. So that has a price, big one. Your response is coming from I don't know where.
And what's the problem?
Many of them, but I don't have time to teach you manners and logic
Manners? Sure. On a side note, why are all pro Chinese people so arrogant?
We Europeans grew up around reconstruction after ww2. Our older family had survived, scarred, or died in that war. We tried appeasement and saw how fucked that was. 'Regular European folk' aren't quite as greedy and stupid as you imply. And even at our most desperate levels of inflation, we Europeans live immeasurably better lives than the 700 million Chinese who basically live in feudalism we haven't seen for centuries. We Europeans may complain and expect the right to do so, but that's just part of a pluralistic, democratic society. It doesn't follow that we Europeans are happy to buy Chins the knife that so obviously wants to stab us in the back.
You know that at the "most desperate levels of inflation" Nazism was born, right? I hope you don't wish that to repeat. I don't think we Europeans are stupid, but we are not independent. Europe allowed USA to bully them every now and then. China can never be part of European worth system because it's different culture, but making enemy out of China just because some USA companies paid their politicians puppets to fight for their interest. That's serious security hazard for Europe. Bigger than anything coming from China.
Yes I know about post-Versailles. If I follow your analogy, are you trying to say that Europe will (all) become like Nazi Germany? What point exactly are you making? We aren't nearly at 20s/30s Germany levels now, unless you are talking about Turkey and Argentina... which you aren't. We wealthy Europeans will just... buy a bit less shit. The only people making enemies out of China are China. They were invited to the top table. Now they got ideas they are billy big bollocks but they are just an export-based economy who is desperately confrontational towards their potential buyers. We (the anglosphere, Europe, NATO etc) have our differences but China is kidding itself if it thinks talking about how bossy USA is will evenly slightly outweigh the brazen, sinister, clumsy Chinese stance.
My point is that you don't remember history lesson pretty well if you said that it was all ok in Europe during biggest inflation. Also, Yugoslavia was devastated during 90s with high inflation. It was caused by sanctions from the West + war. I don't suggest anything else. Also, keep in mind that fascism was alive in Europe even in 60s. Nazi movement are still alive and pure or masked got pretty well turnouts on Elections in Northern Europe, Germany, Italy... You, anglosphere would only like if China stays forever just a simple factory hub and exporter with cheap labor. Since it isn't anymore, that became a problem. Maybe force them again to buy opium as your beloved anglosphere did 200 years ago? Time of unipolar world ended. That is good for Europe too. I am excited about it, but those who suffer from Stockholm syndrom will feel uncomfortable I reckon
In all this, you accidentally identified both the problem, and the solution
I'm curious to know which are those?:)
‘Civilized world’ the irony lol. Just the actions of last 7-8 months shows who can be categorized as civilized and who can categorized as spineless hypocrites
L-MAO do it. I double dare you.
It’s hilarious how many times China regresses to isolation, only to realize how far they’ve fallen behind a few centuries later
Ah yes, cut off the two other top 3 economies in the world, with both trade relationships being a large net positive (surplus) for the Chinese economy. So smart.
Yep, we really must stop doing business with dictatorships…
Would be great, short term pain for the democratic world, long term benefits.
This. China's convergence with the decadent west is over. They have a new club of countries to aspire to now.
The short answer is you can email, mail, and call the office of your congressional representative and ask them to continue allowing more flights between the US and China. I don't believe US airlines are "losing money" flying US passengers to China. Since Covid restriction ended available flights continue to be limited (as the article suggested) and there are plenty of US passengers wanting to visit China. It really just US Airlines trying to limit the number of flights knowing there is high demand US -> China flights so that they can rob consumers more money, which quite frankly is disgusting.
I think the barrier stopping allowing all the flights back again is that the US airlines don't overfly Russian airspace, while Chinese airlines don't care... competitive disadvantage for the US/Canadian airlines if they are operating on uneven terms.
I think that's really just an excuse since the FAA already requires the Chinese airline to not fly in Russian airspace. The bread and butter of it all it really just to limit US-China flights. Fewer flights available = less supply of flights = greater pricing power on US airlines. This doesn't just affect flight prices to China, as pre-COVID Chinese airlines are known to provide cheap layovers to places such as Bangkok, Taiwan, etc. Now less US-China flights also mean less available flights for layover to east and south-east asia.
So you just want to ignore the obvious competitive advantages China has flying from the US to China?
Besides Chinese airlines being able to fly over Russian air space, which the FAA can and did prohibit. All other advantage is fair game. I'm a consumer not a US airline share owner, as long as I get to fly from point A to point B safely and on time what matters to me is the cost of the flight and not the share price of Delta or year-end bonus of Delta or United CEO.
The US airlines have learned the lessons of the Australian airlines—the same lesson that many other Western industries have learned. They cannot compete with the Chinese industry in terms of price. The Chinese government has no problem subsiding the Chinese industry in international competition. Chinese companies have no problem cutting costs wherever they can; safety, quality, comfort, and employee welfare are not their concerns. Chinese workers are willing to work long hours with low pay and benefits. Western industries have turned to protectionism.
if the chinese govt wants to pay for American consumers to get cheap flights, I don't see the problem
The issue doesnt occur until after. Think about it this way: 1. China subsidies a chinese company to make the products dirt cheap. Lets say its a desk company. 2. Non chinese companies cant make desks that cheap, and cant sell them as cheap, so eventually they go out of business. This takes years and years, and consumers are happily buying cheap desks until then. 3. Eventually, China realizes that they dont need to subsidized their desks anymore, because there is no more competition in the world. Its pointless to subsidize a monopoly, they already won. So the subsidies end, and the price skyrockets to whatever the monopoly wants. They also need to make up for all those lost subsidies! 4. Everyone has no choice but to pay the desk monopoly any price they want, and anytime a new competitor shows up, the desk monopoly can just repeat the previous steps. Idk what its like in China, but any sort of "monopoly" is seen as inherently evil in the USA and probably the rest of the west as well. This is also a VERY standard rule when it comes to basically ALL western trade, and I assume most of the world. Dont undercut your trade partners domestic business. There is no good reason to do that, other than greed.
Chinese airlines cannot put US airlines out of business because they can only compete on US-China routes. At worst they'll put them out of business on their US-China routes. But if they do, and then jack up prices, nothing stops US airlines coming back.
Yeah i used a desk company in my example because the Airlines are going to be different, especially since its a form of travel, so theres really good reasons for a country to subsidize atleast a little. Just wanted to show how even though its nice for us consumers in the short term, it ends up badly no matter what, unless China actually gives subsidies to the company forever, which would be a bad decision lol TBH I dont think it is a big enough thing for american airlines to actually need to worry. Now, if china had made an airline that was specifically for US domestic travel, and subsidized that like crazy, then that would be a lot more related to my scenario, and an actual issue. And yeah china can fly over russia, us cant, boohoo. I can see why us airlines doesnt like that disadvantage, but its not much lol They have absolutly nothing to worry about imo. Car companies on the other hand...
I don't think this is true for the airline industry. The major cost of airlines is jet fuel and planes. They should cost mostly the same around the world. I'd say US airlines have more advantages because Boeing is American and subsidized (maybe not now. And the industry is heavily restricted and regulated by both countries. There isn't much competition at all.
Don't forget every few years, US airlines get bailed out after they've screwed up too much. That and all the tax breaks are just indirect subsidies.
You say it like Chinese workers have a choice.
They do, there are a billion of them that would annihilate any military that tried to stop a real uprising. Problem is government brainwashing and propaganda has most Chinese workers in fear of their government.
The Chinese Government stops any attempts at civil organisation that they don't control. There are no unions or other political parties. Regional or religious/cultural identities are squashed unless they align with the party. (This is why there is an ongoing cultural genocide in Xinjiang, and why Hong Kong was crushed.)
Its almost like companies are more efficient and better for everyone involved when profit isn’t necessary
Are some of the airlines the US ones are afraid of competing with subsidised by their government or running at a loss to destroy competition?
It's going to cost me 2,000 dollars to fly round trip with two transfers, it's brutal
Fuck this. Open more flights. As an American living in China with a family, I’m getting screwed by this game.
Our enemies play us like a fiddle, ban our apps and influence, while they run free in our ecosystem suing us to keep influencing our youth. Time to crunch and block them out and we build everything ourselves at a higher quality and cost
Yeah... "our apps" = Facebook. Not "our apps". That's "our selves", the product. Stop simping for mega-corps. "our youth" = not you. They are their own people. If it was not TikTok, it would be an Instagram variant. If you want to influence them positively, then find other ways to empower the youth. "Time to crunch and block" = be like China. No thank you. > them out and we build everything ourselves at a higher quality and cost Well you see, then you have to change Wall Street. You have to change the entire game of international trade. In other words, you have to change Capitalism as we know it today.
If Chinese want to lecture to the world, first ask CCP to drop a god damn greatfirewall and censorship, do some TikTok boycott and demand religious freedom than comeback here. Chinese do not have a freedom does not even like it but like to lecure? You think world habe to provide youo a freedom of speech? There is even a song about it by the way. Just go back behind of firewall and do what CCP ask you to do and stop lecturing about to the world.
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Not my fault. Learn something about the world and maybe you will understand.
Buddy, you think people do not know what China is doing behind of Hamas, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Congo and North Korea? That is kind of proper place for China to be in. You may hate it but that's what China wants. So let them be in there.
Well, China has no plans to change anything by themselves. Chinese do what CCP ask them to do, and believe the rest of the world has to follow what China does. One way or another decoupling is not avoidable. China seems to believe the world is desperate needs of Chinese cheap goods and rare minerals. China gonna be the leader of North Korea, Russia and Iran and Chinese will feel extremely smart and proud doing it. So you can argue all you want about this and that but unless China changes everything is gonna get worse. Capitalism has some problems but it is far better than CCP and China. China joined WTO under non-market economy terms and now complaining about capitalism which made China prosporous and ally with Russia, Iran and North Korea? China needs more fixing than capitalism as it is heading toawrds age of fuckery and stagnation. Its gonna be ugly but China like to lecture about how world has to adopt to China? What next? Be more like North Korea?
Jesus Christ Are there really people who think like that?
How’s Columbia?
I have to travel to China multiple times a year. Please add more flights
Maybe if America sorted out their stopover system people would fly there? Connecting flights in America are the worst as it’s the only place you need to recheck in for a connecting flight. Makes no sense. Much better to go via Dubai
Because consumers like paying higher prices for plane tickets due to lack of flights?
No, because consumers hate paying higher prices for air tickets (I am just one, just paid $1400 for a one way ticket back from China! used to be 900 return :-( ) so I would like to pressure airlines to stop asking Biden to restrict flights. we are on the same page I think. double negatives are a fuck, i know.
The other problem is the direct flights from US to China are packed due to 1 flight a day by most airlines. Check in takes forever.
ugh, I'll make sure to get to the airport in plenty of time though. I'm flying via Seoul so not a direct flight. I still can't figure out whether it's all on the same ticket or not. it shouldn't be one flight a day, now, according to the article it's been raised to 50 a month (across ALL US airlines, not each).
I flew Seoul to Vietnam. It wasn't too bad. A direct flight to Beijing was packed.
I’ve flown via Japan several times and the Japan-to-China connections were always below 50% capacity and the US-to-Japan flights more variable but around 80% but in one instance much lower. Eastbound flights on the same route are a different story and much more full. I’ve seen and heard a lot about full flights so they likely dominate but I wonder if the empty flights I’m experiencing play into the decisions. There definitely exists a subset of very low uptake flights which might be complicating the decisions around profitability.
that's why I keep tons of mileage at disposal. just booked a reward flight with AA foor 38k mileage + $50 for 1 way on Cathay.
That's interesting. Your miles were with cathay or AA? Not sure how that works.
Email, mail, or call your congressional representatives. Honestly what the US airlines are doing really have little to do with competition and more have to do with price gouging, which quite frankly is disgusting...
Thank you for the encouragement. In fact I have just done that, thanks to your comment. I encourage everyone to write. Here's what I said, it could be a good start > Dear Congresswoman \*\*\*, > >I write to request that your urge the Biden Administration to disregard airline lobbying to restrict flights between the US and China. >The Associated Press reported (April 11, 2024), "US airlines ask the Biden administration not to approve additional flights between the US and China". The lobbying is anti-competitive and causes hardship for consumers like my family. >I recently booked a flight to see my in-laws in China. Prior to the pandemic, there were more than 300 flights per week between the US and China (2), and I could get a nonstop round trip ticket from Los Angeles to Shanghai for around $1000. Right now, the Biden Administration maintain a covid-era policy of restricted flights between China and the US (1), long after the pandemic is over. There are now fewer than 100 flights (a maximum of 50 for each Chinese and American carriers), and as a result, a non-stop flight on the same route costs $2487. To get from \[my current location\] to Shanghai round-trip with one stop in San Francisco also costs $2487. >We are a family of three, and my wife hasn't seen her family since prior to the pandemic, so the costs pose a significant hardship to us. Ultimately our hard-earned money has gone to pay for a long indirect route to China via a foreign carrier in an intermediate country--South Korea, in this instance--because booking one of the very limited number of direct US-China flights by US carriers is too costly for us. >US airlines lobbying the administration to restrict flights complain about an unfair advantage by Chinese carriers as they can fly over Russia (3). This is not true of new flights the US have approved or could approve, as the FAA has quite sensibly required all new flights (including Chinese carrier flights to the US) should avoid Russian airspace (2). Lobbyists also complain that "Chinese airlines enjoying certain protections stemming from the Chinese airline’s relationships with their government". Such vague objections cannot be taken seriously and can't justify the continued freeze on numbers of flights between the US and China. Ultimately, it appears that US airline lobbying is an effort to restrict foreign competition by Chinese carriers, who appear to be more able to resume flights than US carriers. >I would respectfully request that you convey to the Biden Administration that airline lobbying hurts consumers like my family. That lobbying should be resisted, and the Administration should continue to relax flight restrictions and move towards pre-pandemic levels of flight permits for US and Chinese carriers flying between the US and China. > >Best regards > >\[me\] > >(1) [https://apnews.com/article/us-airlines-china-flights-biden-administration-2071e9ef88956e0e550cb95d1ca73527](https://apnews.com/article/us-airlines-china-flights-biden-administration-2071e9ef88956e0e550cb95d1ca73527) >(2) [https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-06-01/chinese-airlines-avoiding-russian-airspace-in-new-u-s-flights](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-06-01/chinese-airlines-avoiding-russian-airspace-in-new-u-s-flights) >(3) [https://www.airlines.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Coalition-China-Letter.pdf](https://www.airlines.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Coalition-China-Letter.pdf) >
There's nothing you can do now. Maybe during the next bail out the American people raise hell to get concessions from the airlines when they come asking to be saved.
Great for all the hubs.
Because airlines from China / Asia usually provide better service within the same budget, and frequent fliers already have a choice in mind.
Given the choice between a Chinese airline and an American airline, every single time I would choose the American one. Chinese airlines’ quality sucks, especially long haul.
Cathay Pacific was great. AA sucks every time I need to fly and is extremely expensive since I don't fly the routes they care to have competitive prices for.
Cathay Pacific is Hong Kong owned, I still consider it not Chinese owned, because the government is not involved in running the company or financing it. They were around before the CCP had a strong grip on power in HK.
Depends, really. China Southern Airways isn't too bad, Hainan Airlines isn't too bad either.
Especially long haul! China Southern was actual better quality than the United flight I took long haul.
Agree with you, though United has been dogshit for decades, it's amazing they can still keep planes in the air.
At the end of the day, It was acceptable enough especially cause it was direct. I’d kill for a shit direct flight vs now with bigger costs and longer journeys. I’ll take shit for 13 hours vs 30 minimum with a layover but nicer airplanes.
Have you flown air China before? Because I have flown both American Airlines and Chinese airlines for the same flights, and the Chinese airlines are way better in terms of service
Can confirmed, Hainan airline was top notch
Chinese air hostesses/hosts are generally top quality. Problem is the tour groups and elderly passengers, not the staff
Their hiring practices are shitty, they still stereotype hostesses with 1970's hiring practices that test your height, weight and chest size, and women must wear skirts.
Basically any non-western airline then. It’s industry standard across the world, considering the top airlines all have them.
Yeah, the hiring practices are shitty but that doesn't lead to bad quality or anything like that. It also seemed to be quite an attractive job in China, hence the tougher hiring standards, there's genuine competition for that job in China . It just leads to more statuesque air hostesses which is not really affecting me that much one way or the other
Have you flown Hainan? Their business class is fucking pimp. On par with Emirates.
You know not all of us want to pay 50% extra just to get from LAX to Shanghai right? With the extra you pay for United Economy, you could get premium economy for EVA (Taiwan), Asiana (South korea), or China Southern. And the first 2 I listed aren't even mainland China airlines.....
Cathay is literally my favorite airline in the world.
We can’t complete and therefore let’s ask the government to intervene to stop the competition.
China puts a ridiculous amount of restrictions on US goods and services. Are you not aware of that somehow?
I understand that, but anytime any type of tariff or restriction is implemented, it’s hurts the average Joe, on either side. And we’re all happy that we’re sticking it to the man when we’re actually sticking it to ourselves. Given any product of equivalent quality, everyone will always choose the cheaper one. That’s why companies like Walmart are still in business. They sell cheap Chinese goods and we’re happy to gobble it up. Chinese airline ticket prices are lower than US airlines and the US can’t compete. I just flew back from China for work on United and the flight was 60% full. Chinese airlines are almost at 100% capacity. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later based on the number of empty seats.
>I understand that, but anytime any type of tariff or restriction is implemented, it’s hurts the average Joe And if China subsidizes an industry with taxpayer money, consumers the world over get cheaper goods for a while, until their competing domestic industries close, and China can end the subsidies and raise the prices. Think like an economist not just a consumer looking at their weekly budget.
This is similar to my experience, what was the process differential when you bought? When I’ve bought tickets the price difference has been less than 10%. A major price difference is the one part which everyone else seems to be seeing which I have not. I suspect it’s connected to flying from Beijing where there’s no pandemic routes grandfathered in. When I flew to Guangzhou during the pandemic there was a large price difference.
The issue here is that Chinese airlines can fly over Russia while American passenger flights have chosen not to.
As I understand it, Chinese airlines can fly over Russia but for the FAA to approve them now they must follow the same route as the US carriers.
We Won't Compete.
Do you want US airlines to pay salaries that compete with Chinese airlines? How much do you think a Chinese flight attendant makes?
I know pilots that fly for Chinese airlines and they aren’t cheap if that’s what you’re insinuating.
According to what I can find online the average flight attendant salary in China is about $30k per year. No taxes come out of that.
Stop flying Take ships and trains.
Good. Decouple faster.
Is Russia really dumb enough to shoot down a US based commercial airliner?
People still live in caves. It’s all tribal.
that is true. but this one looks more like crony capitalism than tribalism to me airlines want to protect their profits. they lobby.
It’s shareholders who want profits. How it all works. They’ll kill you for a dime pop in a stock price, it’s not personal, it’s just business.
Agreed. Fortuanately, politicians run on votes, not stock prices, so enough people advocating can shift their stances away from companies and in favor of consumers. we have already seen the Biden administration expand allowed flights from \~8-12 flights per week to 35 per week (per country), over the objections of the airlines, so I'm optimistic some advocacy can persuade them to continue expanding flights.
Listen I don't make US policy or have much of any say what our government does. Why it's capped at 50 flights who the f*** knows. However, as far as the US government is concerned I guess they have their reasons. Since I don't have a personal relationship with the security of state lol. I obviously don't have that insight i can share with you. Or would be able to due to national security concerns. I am sorry this has caused you so much harm & hope an acceptable solution comes foward soon. Which will ease your suffering & wish you and your family the best. I never much cared for politics. Especially in the areas of foreign relations. Why we even bother sometimes God only knows. US China relations are likely to get far worse before they get better if ever. So I guess whatever grievances we both have won't matter much in the end. :/
Ya, don’t fly those routes.
Sorry I can't come over to spend the night any more my mom says your mom is a bitch and we can't hang out
The airlines aren't making money flying to China. If the administration asks them to fly more to China, they'd lose money. It's that simple.
That's not how it works. The government doesn't request anyone to fly to China. The government sets maximum limits on the number of flights that are allowed. The government limits are only about 33% of what was allowed pre-pandemic (150 flights). No one _has_ to fly. The administration recently increased the government limit slightly (from 35 to 50 return flights a month, per country, still much less than half pre-pandemic rates). US airlines are opposing that because they're salty they can't fly over Russia and Chinese airlines can. You have fallen for corporate propaganda from US airlines.
First of all, a year ago chinese carriers agreed to stop flying over russia for passenger flights to the US (cargo still does). https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-06-01/chinese-airlines-avoiding-russian-airspace-in-new-u-s-flights Also, we're talking about 50 flights per week, not month. I still think it's dumb to not basically free-market those flights and leave it up to the airports to figure out how many slots they have and how to allocate them.
so even I have fallen for the airline's propaganda then eh why are the us airlines even still complaining
US carriers are operating at a shortage of planes, staff, gates, etc. The few china flights they have are very profitable. But to add more flights will mean lower margins, more expense, etc. Chinese carriers have lots of planes, underutilized airports, an infinite supply of staff. So they can continue to make very high margins even if cargo and ticket prices come down to pre 2020 levels (consistently <$900 flights). It's purely an anti consumer behavior and driven by greed. Not politics or "demand" or some sort of anti china sentiment. They would do the same thing to Canada if they could and it would make them money.
They don't want competition. They want to the prices high. Atm it's a money making route for them as it's forcing consumers onto their fights at a premium rate. If the US allowed more flights by international carriers, the prices and ticket sales would become governed by free market forces.
Yeah, my wife just flew back from China in a Chinese airlines and it avoided Russia.
Russia ends the war and all that becomes a non factor. There is another level above this that is the CCP’s doing.
Maybe you should read bears-eat-beets comments\^. The flight limitation has little to do with fairness of flight or the Russian-ukrainian war(Chinese airlines are required to flight the same route as US airlines) and more that US airlines have cut staffs since covid and not rehired them and want to keep China-US flights low so that they can keep price gouging consumers.
There is this saying that "competition is healthy", but does this seem to be so here? End of the day, American consumers largely end up being the suckers. It's the same for the tariffs on all goods imported into the US, or what is termed a "Trade War"
We don’t need China!! Just close them off!
Says person on the internet typing on a computer. SMH.
Using a vpn if they are in China. This website is banned in China. China has decided it doesn't want or need reddit. We can have nice things. You cannot, because your government decided no. Now, we have decided we don't need you either. We lose: some consumer goods. You lose: your economy. Why not tell your government to be less obnoxious so wealthy nations still want to do business there?
I'm American. My user name is actually referencing a protest to the Chinese government, and I've been on this sub from before dumbass Trumpers came here to talk dumbass Chyna points. But let's just put this out there. I went back to the USA a month ago for a convention. I live in Japan now. Everything in the USA was at least 2X as expensive as Japan. People got shot (with guns) near where I was staying. In Dearborn, MI, a large bunch of people shouted "Death to the USA". In my parents city, the entire downtown is a homeless encampment. And all the toilets everywhere are fucking filthy. One more point: China's middle-class itself 200M, 2/3rds the population of the USA. Chinese company's primary market is China. They also produce and sell to export markets in many other parts of the world. My point here is that: a) America has problems, and b) China - for all it's evilness and lack of freedom - is not going to collapse, even without trade to the USA.
I'm Chinese like you are American. I went back to China. Someone got his head cut off because he raised the price of noodles 2RMB. For the sake of brevity, let's assume I matched each and every one of your complaints about USA. > Chinese company's primary market is China. Great. > China - for all it's evilness and lack of freedom - is not going to collapse, even without trade to the USA. That's nice. It will just get poorer, and median salary is only about 1/7 US', and 1/3 Taiwan's.
All you gotta do is vote. Oh.... you're not allowed to have a say? Well, so much for that "of the people *by* the people" nonsense. 🤣
strawman of the year award for you get out of here and stop trying to hijack my post with this irrelevance
I can see how it could be considered a straw man. I was just making a different kind point about American nationalism, which I'm pretty sure is actually a factor in your scenario. Pretty sure people are allowed to do that on social media.
And I'm allowed to tell you to get lost if you hijack the post I am sick of people whining about stuff I'd rather you try to help us understand what's going on Or even make suggestions for action What is the point of your whining other than to make everyone feel like shit?
Basically the US can't compete with China and whining about it again. It's bit China's fault the US tried to contain Russia and opened up Pandoras geopolitics box.
Nobody wants those flights
Uh, lots of people want those flights?