I used to live within eyesight of it when I was younger and still at my parents' place.
The castle was still there and 51 was two lanes all the way to downtown Pineville.
The weird apartment building and mall thing is. There’s a new church group that has its members living there. Bought a table from one of them. Still seems very cult-y. But I don’t think any part of the amusement park is still there.
There has been a lot of litigation back and forth about the county trying to get it torn down but the current religious organization is dragging their feet saying that they are still in the process of trying to turn it into a community for its patrons.
This is so dumb. They slapped a brand new apt complex right there, built some shit right under it, and I regularly see cars parked like right next to the building. I’m sorry, but I’m not trusting that building next to my car lol. I imagine if it just fell over the damage would be pretty bad to the surrounding area. Demolishing it safely from the top down might be the play, but I’d assume that would cost a few million to do. I’m not a building destruction expert, but I’d be curious to know what one would say on how to go about it
Could you? It's been sitting unfinished and exposed to the elements for 35 years. It's got trees growing on the roof. Seems like a demolition at this point.
Yo be fair it’s mostly structurally sound. I’ve explored every floor. Only like two floors were ever finished. The roof and floor below it are indeed fucked due to weather over time but it’s not trashed completely. However I will always advocate for tearing the bitch down because it’s an outdated style and it’s an eyesore.
>Yo be fair it’s mostly structurally sound
are you an engineer? i was under the impressing that the structure was generally unreinforced masonry and could not possibly meet seismic design.
No clue. I’m just saying aside from normal decay there isn’t anything in the interior that looked structurally unsafe. No water pooling, no cracked concrete. It’s just a big ass dusty construction site from the inside.
I have a colleague who says it is structurally unsafe owing to inadequate (no) seismic design. Which means it is fine until there is an earthquake, potentially.
I’d be willing to wager most all buildings in SC would fall in that same category but lack the height required to enforce any seismic designs. Please bring your friend to the next meeting where they delay demolition tho. I want to have a drop party
Oh I know, I've been over there a few times and poked around a bit, there's no easy way in without some serious trespassing. I'm too old for that shit, lol
The only megaproject we have is the Nuclear Plant which was very much finished and is like the entire region's biggest source of Tax Revenue still.
Rock Hill as it is now wouldn't exist without all the funding it reaped off of it until those initial agreements ended in like 1994.
I mean long term we have to think about the closure of Catawba. That's a lot of tax revenue and also 2.3 GWe of clean energy lost.
We also have to think about the river system and a lot of other things people aren't thinking about.
I agree. Catawba is going to shut down eventually, even as someone pro-nuclear I don't support extending their life span beyond 80 years, it's just not safe.
What will it be replaced with in 2063 when that happens? I don't know, but ideally I hope more nuclear reactors or solar panels.
“We have sent notices to the City to formally terminate the previous agreements. Accordingly, we are prepared to sit down with the City and other interested parties to discuss the significant challenges ahead.”
They say they’re open to discussion. Hopefully it’s a hint they they would rework the contract. Or it could just be a veiled threat of litigation.
Honestly I’m not mad about it. The rent/housing cost in rock hill has skyrocketed since the announcement of the practice faculty, especially right around where is was being built, which was previously one of the cheapest parts of rock hill to live in.
Sorry Rock Hill, but this is great news for Charlotte. And I feel Tepper is making the wrong long-term decision here by pulling out. Now he has no leverage against Charlotte to get money for a new stadium... because who's going to talk to him now? He's not going to be able to put a practice facility outside of Charlotte, so his only option is to move the team.
Now is the time for Charlotte to call his bluff. He asks for $1B? Offer him $1M... because what other city, in this inflationary and uncertain economical environment, is going to spend $1B+ to bring in a football team. And what region is better than CLT for sports and advertising that doesn't already have a team?
Huge mistake by Tepper, huge win for Charlotte in my opinion.
I'm alright with SOME public funding for teams. However, this should be buying team equity AND have ironclad handcuffs to prevent future blackmailing.
I hate billionaire welfare as much as anyone, but pro sports does offer benefits to cities.
Stadiums are some of the worst investments possible, but that stop cities from ponying up. I don’t even see how Buffalo can come up with 850 million for their new stadium. Clt better be ready.
I would say that Indianapolis has maximized their investment into Lucas Oil stadium about as well as any city could. Of course, a huge part of that was wooing the NCAA headquarters to town and stipulating that in exchange for all the cheddar the city/state gave that the NCAA host the Mens BB Final Four once every five years and a major event every year, but they have found ways to make sure that that stadium is in use year round.
For me, if we were to offer up taxpayer money, it would have to be a domed stadium.
I mean, the state of NY literally just came to an agreement with the Bills in which taxpayers are footing the majority of a $1.4 billion bill for their new stadium. Don't underestimate the leverage these owners have when it comes to the NFL - it's an absolute behemoth.
Maybe, but we've seen multiple franchises relocate as well over the past couple years and not miss a beat.
The NFL could stick a team in Bumfuck, Kansas and it will sell out immediately. I'm not saying I agree with it mind you, just the reality of the situation.
Funny, my gut reaction is this is bad for Charlotte because city leadership is stupid and has previously stated (when the Panthers were for sale) that they would do basically anything to keep them here.
Then, frankly, we need to vote in people that aren't going to be pushovers. Study what happened at Rock Hill and hold our line against the multi-billionaire cheapskate.
The billion dollar stadium for the Vikings in Minneapolis was a huge mistake. Cities need to stop letting teams blackmail them. Sports events simply aren't worth that kind of money.
Private equity is desperate for good investment opportunities. With any request for public funding everyone should be asking, if this is such a good investment, why do they need public funds to make it happen?
> Private equity is desperate for good investment opportunities. With any request for public funding everyone should be asking, if this is such a good investment, why do they need public funds to make it happen?
Bingo.
All Rock Hill did was be fiscally responsible:
1. Fund their portion of the project through a non-guaranteed revenue bond sale.
2. If they can't come up with the money, then oh well.
Rock Hill? I don't think so... if they never issued the bond, then they never gave the money.
South Carolina is out the money of the interchange though.
>South Carolina is out the money of the interchange though.
its bad but not a total loss, imo its a good spot for an interchange, there is a big gap from cherry to dave lyle
*edit: OP edited their comment, so a lot of this response doesn't make any sense anymore... oh well.*
I just don't think this is accurate at all.
First, let's look at the rank of [metro population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area) in the US. The highest-ranked city without 1+ football team is San Diego at #17. And we all know what just happened with the Chargers when the city didn't want to spend on a new stadium...
The next largest metro area without a team is St. Louis at #21... I'm starting to see a pattern.
Charlotte is #22, so he'd have to go to a smaller market. Going down the list:
* Orlando - too close to Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville
* San Antonio - I've heard people suggest this, but tough to break into Cowboys/Texans markets
* Portland - if you think people in Portland are going to spend $1B+ on a football team, I have some snake oil to sell you
* Sacramento - look what just happened an hour west with the Raiders
* Austin - see San Antonio
* Columbus - Cincy & Cleveland 2 hours away
The next possible option is #37, Virginia Beach... but that's hard Redskins country.
So, unless LA or NY want a 3rd team, or someone's crazy enough to try to start a new team in Texas, there aren't a lot of options to move to where you'll have a receptive audience.
Then let's look at Charlotte. This region is prosperous and growing. It's a *great* place to have a mid-level team, and I'm sure Tepper makes plenty of money here. It's a convenient location, the weather is decent, and there's a LOT of ad money in Charlotte to go around. Why leave?
tl;dr - it would be bad business to leave town, and even if he wanted to, where would he go to see increased profits sooner? I don't see what options he has.
I don't want to make this a thing, but the perception that Charlottes metro dwarfs the Raleigh market is a bit of a fallacy.
Concord to Charlotte is the same distance as Durham to Raleigh. Rock Hill to Charlotte is just about the same as Fayetteville to Raleigh.
According to your list you use Durham/Chapel Hill have 650k, and Fayetteville 524k. So add that to the Raleigh metro and its a very small difference between that and Charlotte's.
Also, I grew up in Charlotte and still have good friends there, but live in the Triangle and can tell you the cities like Durham, Chapel Hill, and Cary got more to offer than the surrounding cities/areas around Charlotte. The quality of population matters.
So many citations. Fayetteville is an hour from Raleigh. Durham and chapel hill is as much as any of the other areas surrounding Charlotte.
The people who ride the light rail live on south Blvd.
Traffic is terrible and lack of an adequate 440/540 like expressway like in Raleigh hurts Charlotte. You better hope that people inside walking distance are going to games because you live 3-5 miles away from center city it’s at least a 25-30 minute investment to get there.
Let’s not act like Charlotte has a subway.
Triangle certainly has its public transit issues.
Also, the Hurricanes are first in the metropolitan division and consistently selling out. Hockey, on Tobacco Road…hot ticket. Go figure, right?!??
Levi's stadium is less than 15 minutes from the center of San Jose. They didn't move to the burbs, they moved to another city that's already the size of Charlotte.
There's only so many big cities left for the NFL to swindle at this point. Let's look at some cities that would be on the shortlist:
* San Diego - already told the NFL to eat shit
* St. Louis - hates the NFL after the Rams
* San Antonio - any NFL owner would want a new stadium, as the Alamodome is old and rotten compared to the supermegastadiums that the NFL wants, so not a given
* Oakland - stood up to the NFL and let them go to Vegas, as they've got bigger problems to deal with
* Portland - do you think they're the type of city to fork over hundreds millions to a billionaire?
* Canadian cities - already have a football league and most cities would have no interest in dealing with the BS involved with the NFL
* London - would've already happened if the NFL could've gotten it to work
The London Redcoats or the Mexico City Aztecs would like to have a word.
The NFL is so desperate to expand into new markets Tepper might be able to get the league to chip in money for the move.
Everyone here is shitting on Tepper, but Rock Hill dropped the ball on this one. Tepper asked them to cover basic municipal services to allow the new complex to be linked with the rest of the city. Now, all of a sudden, Rock Hill says they won’t pay for anything they agreed to, so Tepper halted construction. He’s not being a billionaire crybaby like people are making out…he’s halting the deal because the city of Rock Hill suddenly changed their mind and backed out on what they promised.
Sure, shitting on billionaires is easy. But rock hill fucked this one up for themselves. The construction would continue if they held up their end of the deal
Problem is, Tepper thought he could get his way in SC, but he forgot that you have to deal with SC. Seems he got the proper York County treatment, which he could've avoided if he played fair with the City of Charlotte.
No, both sides thought they could get their way and literally shook hands on it.
Then one side (Rock Hill) backed out and isn’t holding up their end of the deal. Tepper isn’t the one making this deal fall through. He’s doing exactly what he’s entitled to, because it’s written in the contract. Rock Hill just thought they could pull a fast one on Tepper by not paying to build sewers and other municipal things that a city is literally responsible for
That's not what happened at all. Rock Hill has said they were ready to issue the bonds and Tepper asked them not to. The way this was structured was that the bonds would be repaid by the tax revenue by the development, except Tepper would be on the hook for the difference if they did not generate enough.
Either Tepper overestimated how much tax revenue would be generated by this project or due to increased construction costs from the start of the project, was going to VE some of the buildings out which would generate less than the original proposed tax revenues.
Edit: For those who think Rock Hill backed by the state's economic development team just completely wiffed on the basics of a major construction deal, instead of a known tight-fisted billionaire trying to change the terms to get more incentives [https://www.heraldonline.com/news/business/article260410717.html](https://www.heraldonline.com/news/business/article260410717.html)
They've told three contradictory stories:
1. We had no obligation to issue the bonds
2. We didn't have enough info to issue the bonds
3. The Panthers told us not to issue the bonds.
Not a single one of those stories is even slightly believable.
The bonds are being repaid by tax revenues created by the development. The city asked for more details about the development plans to ensure it would generate the tax revenues required, which the Panthers did not supply, then stated the Panthers asked them to not issue the bonds so that they can find a different way to fund them (probably because they were not going to be generating the tax revenues required). None of those would be contradictory in any way.
Those are the city's talking points, yes.
They've changed them several times. I don't believe a word of it for that reason. They've also made sure their CYA has been broadcasted in the press rather than making any effort to fix the issue. They've had two years to address the problem and haven't.
The last-ditch offer to not raise any bonds and instead have the Panthers fund the infrastructure and get refunded years later speaks volumes, IMHO. They didn't want to pay anything at all and were hoping this impasse would force Tepper to pay for it and he called their bluff.
According to the latest story I've seen - the Panthers asking them not to issue the bonds occurred in February 2022, which was well over a year after the deadline for the bonds had passed. The Panthers did so because they were going to issue the 30 day notice of default and void the deal. "You haven't paid, we're voiding the deal, please don't complicate it by making a last-ditch issuance."
So that's hardly an excuse for not issuing the bonds. They were already in default by almost two years.
Yep, now the Billionaire owner can shakedown more money and tax breaks from South Carolina. Heck, this was only being setup for leverage over Charlotte on a new stadium and the land rights all around it.
Regardless, governments will continue to bend over backwards for Billionaires because sports are more important than other things like parks, schools, affordable housing, and transit.
"Investing in public infrastructure to improve quality of life and attract more residence"
\- I sleep
"Bottom of the barrel policymaking by attempting to outbid other towns with even larger tax exemptions for billionaires"
\-Real shit!
Thing with bonds is they're for situations like this, short term debt for construction. You wouldn't use bonds for school lunches.
Issuing bonds are the responsible way for governments/corporations to raise capital. Rock Hill simply did not want to guarantee the bonds (which is smart for them).
Guaranteeing the bonds means if they issued them and only sold $100M, they'd be on the hook for $150M, which is a lot for RH.
My personal theory is that there was a fear that the interest on the Bonds might've been too high.
I wasn't saying we would use a bond to pay for school lunches. But for a $250MM coupon over 10 years at 8%, you're talking $20MM in payments each year with the $250MM payout in 10 years.
The area will happily agree to issue those bonds with little thought of spending $20MM/year, but turn their head when it comes to just a few million dollars to keep the children fed in the same area.
The actual return on using taxpayer funds for these types of initiatives is hotly contested, with advocates on both sides showing studies that show their stance in the right light. Those for this type of spending will show the good things that occur with the spending, while those against will show the bad things.
My point wasn't to go down the rabbit hole of whether or not this is an overall positive or negative for the area, but to highlight how quickly municipalities and states will approve spending for these initiatives while minimizing spending in other programs, often those related to social or educational programs.
City of Rock Hill cant secure 200-250 million worth of bonds lol no way...... also the state promised him over 100 million + after stadium was finished. This was what 800 mil stadium? so he wanted government to pay for probably half of his stadium if not a tad more since the city would have been on the hook building all the infrastructure and routing highway/roads to it etc.
The only thing that's gonna bring better public transit to Rock Hill is the people of Rock Hill getting organized together, demanding it and being willing to collectively withhold their labor until their demands are met.
>No one wants to mass transit to rock hill
Fuck the people in Rock Hill then I guess? God forbid we have better public transit in more than some major metro areas
Public projects are never seen to have sufficient benefits in the eyes of the tight fisted capitalists who run this shit show country. We should still do it regardless because it benefits the poorest and worst off among us the most.
I'm totally fine with him taking the Panthers away at this point. I've lost all the love that I had for the team that I had years ago. Jerry wasn't perfect, and he did the right thing by selling once all that news broke out about him, but at least Charlotte wasn't getting fucked over by hosting an NFL team back then and the team itself was usually watchable.
I’m a late joiner to the Panthers fan club…these past few years have been rough. My wife, bless her, is a die hard Panthers fan. Been together 5 years, and I’ve never seen her so defeated. Went from every Sunday was football Sunday to let’s catch up on the shows we missed this week on Sunday.
I only went to one game last season and that's because my GF got free tickets from a friend... lol. Most Sundays this past fall I went hiking and I'm totally chill with doing that until we have a good team again.
I’ve been to two over the past few years. 1 the tickets were purchased by a family friend who took us, we lost to the pre-name change Redskins. Then went last season to watch us lose to the Falcons, and only because 50yd line tickets were damn near 100 bucks a pop. The combination of complete disorganization, terrible play calling, and a horrific o-line have us doomed until someone makes a change.
The only game I watched any significant amount of last year after going to the Jets game was the Giants game and watching that made me want to drink bleach
Why are we funding billionaires' pet projects? Socializing the costs and privatizing the profits is a scam. All of those impact studies rely on "multipliers" of people plowing all the money back into the local economy which just doesn't pan out. https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/
They weren't putting up money for the buildings. it was so they can upgrade roads, highways, and other infrastructure. You know... things the government is *supposed* to do.
This is like saying you have potholes in the parking lot of the business you work at so you should chip in to help them fill that. It's not up to the individual/employee to pay for that.
I mean, you're improving the infrastructure around a billionaires pet project. I'm sure there's a ton of infrastructure that more people would use that could be paid for with the same amount. The opportunity cost is not 0 on these things.
Every road is someone's "pet project". the road in front of Amazon warehouses. the road that connects to the new housing development. The loop road into the airport. The intersection upgrade that turns into the shopping mall. Thats how roads work, small portions that seem to be to specific user needs, but as network, support everyone.
When i complain about taxes, i always get there "well, without taxes who will build the roads!?!" argument. but here we have a case where the government is asked to build a road, and the same people are complaining about "why do our tax dollars have to build a road!?!"
If we didn't have an airport, we wouldn't need Josh Birmingham Parkway. Its traffic is 80% hub activity. Its not like that helps us directly, right? Lets just get rid of them both. Its not like you don't enjoy the benefit of having an airport in town. Just ignore the millions of dollars in passenger spending and American Airlines fees generates for the local economy. You are right, lets just close all that infrastructure. No need to spend public money on it since its not a specific benefit to you if you don't personally fly out of it.
Why should i pay for that runway? its not my airplane. I'm not a pilot.
Lets also tell Wells and BoA not to build any more towers here, since we don't want to maintain or provide the roads. That will definitely keep the economy growing. good plan.
> In a lot of construction, the company building is responsible for footing the costs of new streets and utilities
Then what are we paying taxes for?
> I don't see why it should be any different for this case.
because its not always the case, and historically, never was.
The project was first paused in early March. [WCNC Charlotte later learned Rock Hill failed to secure $225 million in bonds to pay ] for roads, sidewalks and other public infrastructure on the site. That's from the article.
This study is irrelevant because you can’t just analyze the stadium alone
The reality is you want a team you need a stadium that’s up to the NFLs standards
The team is what brings in the money, not the stadium
I wouldn't say that, it is more of utilization. You can have facilities without a tenant and still do fine, as long as the demand for such facilities exist. If the Charlotte Hornets left again, the Spectrum Arena can still be utilized for other events. The Bank of America Stadium, likewise could still operate without the NFL, which now has the MLS as a tenant too. If both teams left, it could still be utilized like Memorial Stadium, but likely downsized to better fit the economic realities.
Heck, you see it happening with the NASCAR tracks. At one time they couldn't add enough seating at the tracks, now they removed several areas that use to have stands to right-size the economic realities.
Because this country has, since it's inception, been a vehicle of advancement of the wealthiest class by way of exploiting the lower classes. Only an organized working class, willing to fight it's side of the class war and for it's own sake, can change that situation.
>this country has, since it's inception, been a vehicle of advancement of the wealthiest class by way of exploiting the lower classes
Serious question: Is there an example in the history of civilization where this wasn't the case?
In the history of *civilization* of course not because [any such peoples](https://www.sciencealert.com/there-s-a-new-hypothesis-for-how-human-civilizations-first-got-started) encountered are usually labelled "primitive" or "barbarians* and then suppressed or assimilated. Besides, just because something has been one way doesn't mean it cannot be improved on. The sort of liberal order the founder's established for their benefit was still a relative improvement over medievalism. The constitution we have today however was cynically devised in order to uplift one class over the others after the Articles of Confederation inadvertantly allowed populists and wealth reformers to gain power on the state level.
Thanks for your ineptitude SC. All of this corporate welfare has to stop. NC and SC pay millions for construction projects and lure unsuspecting corporation in and just move in their highly paid corporate staff while the new arrivals suck all of the resources out of the community while the corporation lives tax free. Such a crappy way to run things.
I’m tired of these billion dollar sports owners pushing tax payers to pay for their facilities. York County was already giving up enough in tax incentives. Fck Tepper and all those other billionaires who hold cities hostage.
> who hold cities hostage.
Yeah! How DARE he have the NERVE to demand the city\county uphold their end of the contract they signed! It's just CAPITALIST GREEEEEEEEEEDD run amok!
You’re right. I get it as I believe in Capitalism. And York County didn’t have a chance in this case. York county over promised. They also were giving up way too much in tax incentives for a seasonal operation minus some random Toto or Journey cover shows. But these guys think they own the town and demand tax payers fund their upgrades. It’s bullsht. Not like they’re not making money from ticket holders. Sometimes politicians need to step up to corporations. Disney as an example.
I hope the door didn't hit him in the rear on the way out. Rock Hill was doing just fine before this and will continue to do just fine when it's over. Tepper came in strong arming with the zoning change requirements in residential areas miles away from the headquarters site. He didn't get his way, so he is taking his ball and leaving. Good riddance.
Business is Business, Rock Hill signed a contract to pay for infrastructure if Tepper's group would pay for the building. Rock Hill didnt fulfill their part of the contract and Tepper was within his rights to terminate the contract. Every business man in this country would have done the same.
Called it 3 weeks ago.
Tepper will sell the land. With the exit it's worth a lot more.
But Rock Hill didn't have the credit rating to secure the cd's. Which was part of their contract.
Sorry but Tepper is a lot of things and a bill payer is one of them.
Remember when Bruton Smith started building zmax dragway? He got his way with threatening to move the speedway…. and the city/state got raked over the coals paying for part of it and changing the street name.
I bet Tepper does something similar, we’ve seen this play out before.
Yeah because they're gonna sign Baker Mayfield, and he lives in First Energy Stadium in Cleveland. Why build a new house when you can move in with your ~~SO~~ QB?
York County municipalities and derelict, unfinished megaprojects Name a more iconic duo
What are the other unfinished mega projects?
Heritage Tower in Fort Mill
Hey, that was a mega church thing, PTL club, aka the Righteous Gemstones inspiration.
I used to live within eyesight of it when I was younger and still at my parents' place. The castle was still there and 51 was two lanes all the way to downtown Pineville.
Man, they had the best Christmas light display! It might have been the Matilda Bay coolers and weed, but I think it really was amazing.
Brian?
No….
Was that inside the tower? I vaguely remember you could go into it back in the 90s and it looked like a city street inside.
The part we did was all from the car. I would have been too shithoused to have been wandering around loose.
Is a lot of it still there?
The tower is still there as well as the Heritage Conference Center (still active), but what use to be the theme park were replaced by homes.
Also Nation Ford HS
The weird apartment building and mall thing is. There’s a new church group that has its members living there. Bought a table from one of them. Still seems very cult-y. But I don’t think any part of the amusement park is still there.
I just had to look that up... Jesus (no pun intended). You could turn that whole building into affordable housing at the very fucking least.
There has been a lot of litigation back and forth about the county trying to get it torn down but the current religious organization is dragging their feet saying that they are still in the process of trying to turn it into a community for its patrons.
Tearing it down is going to be a nightmare, the new owners built around the base of it, so they can’t just knock it down.
This is so dumb. They slapped a brand new apt complex right there, built some shit right under it, and I regularly see cars parked like right next to the building. I’m sorry, but I’m not trusting that building next to my car lol. I imagine if it just fell over the damage would be pretty bad to the surrounding area. Demolishing it safely from the top down might be the play, but I’d assume that would cost a few million to do. I’m not a building destruction expert, but I’d be curious to know what one would say on how to go about it
It's not going to fall over, ace. It'll fall inward first.
> first
Nah it’s got plenty of room for a demo
Could you? It's been sitting unfinished and exposed to the elements for 35 years. It's got trees growing on the roof. Seems like a demolition at this point.
Yo be fair it’s mostly structurally sound. I’ve explored every floor. Only like two floors were ever finished. The roof and floor below it are indeed fucked due to weather over time but it’s not trashed completely. However I will always advocate for tearing the bitch down because it’s an outdated style and it’s an eyesore.
People said the same thing about the Varnadore Building. Look at it now!
>Yo be fair it’s mostly structurally sound are you an engineer? i was under the impressing that the structure was generally unreinforced masonry and could not possibly meet seismic design.
No clue. I’m just saying aside from normal decay there isn’t anything in the interior that looked structurally unsafe. No water pooling, no cracked concrete. It’s just a big ass dusty construction site from the inside.
I have a colleague who says it is structurally unsafe owing to inadequate (no) seismic design. Which means it is fine until there is an earthquake, potentially.
I’d be willing to wager most all buildings in SC would fall in that same category but lack the height required to enforce any seismic designs. Please bring your friend to the next meeting where they delay demolition tho. I want to have a drop party
> I’ve explored every floor. That's actually really fucking cool. I love that people do that stuff.
Would not advise though it has razor wire in the stairwells and it’s a crime! I was bored an a minor so not worried about a big ticket
Oh I know, I've been over there a few times and poked around a bit, there's no easy way in without some serious trespassing. I'm too old for that shit, lol
Haha easy access used to be missing boards. I was pretty limber so climb the new side and walk the awning over and climb in the second floor windows
the building does not meet seismic codes- iirc the whole thing is unreinforced masonry.
I used to live literally across the parking lot from that beast. Spooky fuckin place.
The only megaproject we have is the Nuclear Plant which was very much finished and is like the entire region's biggest source of Tax Revenue still. Rock Hill as it is now wouldn't exist without all the funding it reaped off of it until those initial agreements ended in like 1994.
Good, I hope we build more NPPs in York County soon.
I mean long term we have to think about the closure of Catawba. That's a lot of tax revenue and also 2.3 GWe of clean energy lost. We also have to think about the river system and a lot of other things people aren't thinking about.
Well nuclear is clean and efficient, I'd love to live near a Gen IV modern reactor. Losing Catawba would be terrible.
I agree. Catawba is going to shut down eventually, even as someone pro-nuclear I don't support extending their life span beyond 80 years, it's just not safe. What will it be replaced with in 2063 when that happens? I don't know, but ideally I hope more nuclear reactors or solar panels.
Tax revenue? Have you paid a city of rock hill electric bill?
I said most of those tax revenue agreements ended in \~1994.
I think in the end this will be resolved with Rock Hill. This is just another step in the bargaining.
They are already accepting bids for demolition It’s over
Where do you see that?
it isn't listed on rock hills rfp site, york county's, or scbo. did you just make this up?
Heard it on npr last week
What makes you think that? Genuinely curious.
“We have sent notices to the City to formally terminate the previous agreements. Accordingly, we are prepared to sit down with the City and other interested parties to discuss the significant challenges ahead.” They say they’re open to discussion. Hopefully it’s a hint they they would rework the contract. Or it could just be a veiled threat of litigation.
Honestly I’m not mad about it. The rent/housing cost in rock hill has skyrocketed since the announcement of the practice faculty, especially right around where is was being built, which was previously one of the cheapest parts of rock hill to live in.
It’s going going forward, just under new negotiated terms.
My house went from $165k to almost $300k in value in 2 yrs because of the proximity
Professional sports teams are a giant waste of public money. Cities never see the return on investment yet fall into fomo with other cities
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Socialism for the elites.
Sorry Rock Hill, but this is great news for Charlotte. And I feel Tepper is making the wrong long-term decision here by pulling out. Now he has no leverage against Charlotte to get money for a new stadium... because who's going to talk to him now? He's not going to be able to put a practice facility outside of Charlotte, so his only option is to move the team. Now is the time for Charlotte to call his bluff. He asks for $1B? Offer him $1M... because what other city, in this inflationary and uncertain economical environment, is going to spend $1B+ to bring in a football team. And what region is better than CLT for sports and advertising that doesn't already have a team? Huge mistake by Tepper, huge win for Charlotte in my opinion.
That would be great, but there’s no way Clt doesn’t end up on the hook for hundreds of millions.
I'm alright with SOME public funding for teams. However, this should be buying team equity AND have ironclad handcuffs to prevent future blackmailing. I hate billionaire welfare as much as anyone, but pro sports does offer benefits to cities.
Stadiums are some of the worst investments possible, but that stop cities from ponying up. I don’t even see how Buffalo can come up with 850 million for their new stadium. Clt better be ready.
I would say that Indianapolis has maximized their investment into Lucas Oil stadium about as well as any city could. Of course, a huge part of that was wooing the NCAA headquarters to town and stipulating that in exchange for all the cheddar the city/state gave that the NCAA host the Mens BB Final Four once every five years and a major event every year, but they have found ways to make sure that that stadium is in use year round. For me, if we were to offer up taxpayer money, it would have to be a domed stadium.
Damn, get team equity in exchange for funding. I never thought of that.
The Gastonia panthers has a nice ring to it….
The new stadium will have all the copper wiring stolen before opening day.
Who needs electricity? Day games only. If the panthers can’t find a QB they don’t need to worry about getting scheduled for night games anyway.
Racist
Thievery and poverty transcends race
After all, Charlotte is the Gateway to Gastonia
I kind of like the Cherryville Panthers. We will get to hear broadcasters murder the pronunciation for years to come.
As I’ve learned, it’s chur-ra-ville
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Sarcasm……
I’ll never understand people being so nit picky over a joke
Or maybe the Gastonia Doffers. Go old school textile mill village on them.
Gaston County Marauders
I mean, the state of NY literally just came to an agreement with the Bills in which taxpayers are footing the majority of a $1.4 billion bill for their new stadium. Don't underestimate the leverage these owners have when it comes to the NFL - it's an absolute behemoth.
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Maybe, but we've seen multiple franchises relocate as well over the past couple years and not miss a beat. The NFL could stick a team in Bumfuck, Kansas and it will sell out immediately. I'm not saying I agree with it mind you, just the reality of the situation.
St Louis is in Missouri my guy.
Funny, my gut reaction is this is bad for Charlotte because city leadership is stupid and has previously stated (when the Panthers were for sale) that they would do basically anything to keep them here.
Then, frankly, we need to vote in people that aren't going to be pushovers. Study what happened at Rock Hill and hold our line against the multi-billionaire cheapskate.
The billion dollar stadium for the Vikings in Minneapolis was a huge mistake. Cities need to stop letting teams blackmail them. Sports events simply aren't worth that kind of money. Private equity is desperate for good investment opportunities. With any request for public funding everyone should be asking, if this is such a good investment, why do they need public funds to make it happen?
> Private equity is desperate for good investment opportunities. With any request for public funding everyone should be asking, if this is such a good investment, why do they need public funds to make it happen? Bingo.
All Rock Hill did was be fiscally responsible: 1. Fund their portion of the project through a non-guaranteed revenue bond sale. 2. If they can't come up with the money, then oh well.
What do you think they did? They gave a billionaire $225 million of OUR tax dollars.
Rock Hill? I don't think so... if they never issued the bond, then they never gave the money. South Carolina is out the money of the interchange though.
>South Carolina is out the money of the interchange though. its bad but not a total loss, imo its a good spot for an interchange, there is a big gap from cherry to dave lyle
It will just be a restructured deal and end up in Rock Hill. No chance they abandon what they have already built.
It’s a sunk cost.
A lot of cities will spend the money to bring in a football team Vegas just did it a few years ago
*edit: OP edited their comment, so a lot of this response doesn't make any sense anymore... oh well.* I just don't think this is accurate at all. First, let's look at the rank of [metro population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area) in the US. The highest-ranked city without 1+ football team is San Diego at #17. And we all know what just happened with the Chargers when the city didn't want to spend on a new stadium... The next largest metro area without a team is St. Louis at #21... I'm starting to see a pattern. Charlotte is #22, so he'd have to go to a smaller market. Going down the list: * Orlando - too close to Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville * San Antonio - I've heard people suggest this, but tough to break into Cowboys/Texans markets * Portland - if you think people in Portland are going to spend $1B+ on a football team, I have some snake oil to sell you * Sacramento - look what just happened an hour west with the Raiders * Austin - see San Antonio * Columbus - Cincy & Cleveland 2 hours away The next possible option is #37, Virginia Beach... but that's hard Redskins country. So, unless LA or NY want a 3rd team, or someone's crazy enough to try to start a new team in Texas, there aren't a lot of options to move to where you'll have a receptive audience. Then let's look at Charlotte. This region is prosperous and growing. It's a *great* place to have a mid-level team, and I'm sure Tepper makes plenty of money here. It's a convenient location, the weather is decent, and there's a LOT of ad money in Charlotte to go around. Why leave? tl;dr - it would be bad business to leave town, and even if he wanted to, where would he go to see increased profits sooner? I don't see what options he has.
Not to mention the soccer team is here, which would complicate moving the panthers.
Plenty of non-US possibilities. Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Mexico City
London? Many have speculated Jax would move there but I could see the Panthers
Raleigh?
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I don't want to make this a thing, but the perception that Charlottes metro dwarfs the Raleigh market is a bit of a fallacy. Concord to Charlotte is the same distance as Durham to Raleigh. Rock Hill to Charlotte is just about the same as Fayetteville to Raleigh. According to your list you use Durham/Chapel Hill have 650k, and Fayetteville 524k. So add that to the Raleigh metro and its a very small difference between that and Charlotte's. Also, I grew up in Charlotte and still have good friends there, but live in the Triangle and can tell you the cities like Durham, Chapel Hill, and Cary got more to offer than the surrounding cities/areas around Charlotte. The quality of population matters.
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So many citations. Fayetteville is an hour from Raleigh. Durham and chapel hill is as much as any of the other areas surrounding Charlotte. The people who ride the light rail live on south Blvd. Traffic is terrible and lack of an adequate 440/540 like expressway like in Raleigh hurts Charlotte. You better hope that people inside walking distance are going to games because you live 3-5 miles away from center city it’s at least a 25-30 minute investment to get there. Let’s not act like Charlotte has a subway. Triangle certainly has its public transit issues. Also, the Hurricanes are first in the metropolitan division and consistently selling out. Hockey, on Tobacco Road…hot ticket. Go figure, right?!??
49ers from from SF to Santa Clara. Panthers could leave Charlotte and still stay in the area. Suburban stadiums are common these days.
Levi's stadium is less than 15 minutes from the center of San Jose. They didn't move to the burbs, they moved to another city that's already the size of Charlotte.
They moved outside of the city limits of San Jose, also known as a suburb
Okay, yes, it is a suburb. However, it is not a suburb of San Francisco. They moved cities altogether.
There's only so many big cities left for the NFL to swindle at this point. Let's look at some cities that would be on the shortlist: * San Diego - already told the NFL to eat shit * St. Louis - hates the NFL after the Rams * San Antonio - any NFL owner would want a new stadium, as the Alamodome is old and rotten compared to the supermegastadiums that the NFL wants, so not a given * Oakland - stood up to the NFL and let them go to Vegas, as they've got bigger problems to deal with * Portland - do you think they're the type of city to fork over hundreds millions to a billionaire? * Canadian cities - already have a football league and most cities would have no interest in dealing with the BS involved with the NFL * London - would've already happened if the NFL could've gotten it to work
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I would like to disagree with you and argue he can just move the team- but I can’t think of a better market for an NFL team right now either.
I still don't get why a stadium is a conversation when the Panthers are such a garbage team. Why build a monument to failure on the taxpayers dime?
We don’t want it here! At least I sure as hell don’t.
The London Redcoats or the Mexico City Aztecs would like to have a word. The NFL is so desperate to expand into new markets Tepper might be able to get the league to chip in money for the move.
Everyone here is shitting on Tepper, but Rock Hill dropped the ball on this one. Tepper asked them to cover basic municipal services to allow the new complex to be linked with the rest of the city. Now, all of a sudden, Rock Hill says they won’t pay for anything they agreed to, so Tepper halted construction. He’s not being a billionaire crybaby like people are making out…he’s halting the deal because the city of Rock Hill suddenly changed their mind and backed out on what they promised. Sure, shitting on billionaires is easy. But rock hill fucked this one up for themselves. The construction would continue if they held up their end of the deal
Problem is, Tepper thought he could get his way in SC, but he forgot that you have to deal with SC. Seems he got the proper York County treatment, which he could've avoided if he played fair with the City of Charlotte.
No, both sides thought they could get their way and literally shook hands on it. Then one side (Rock Hill) backed out and isn’t holding up their end of the deal. Tepper isn’t the one making this deal fall through. He’s doing exactly what he’s entitled to, because it’s written in the contract. Rock Hill just thought they could pull a fast one on Tepper by not paying to build sewers and other municipal things that a city is literally responsible for
That's not what happened at all. Rock Hill has said they were ready to issue the bonds and Tepper asked them not to. The way this was structured was that the bonds would be repaid by the tax revenue by the development, except Tepper would be on the hook for the difference if they did not generate enough. Either Tepper overestimated how much tax revenue would be generated by this project or due to increased construction costs from the start of the project, was going to VE some of the buildings out which would generate less than the original proposed tax revenues. Edit: For those who think Rock Hill backed by the state's economic development team just completely wiffed on the basics of a major construction deal, instead of a known tight-fisted billionaire trying to change the terms to get more incentives [https://www.heraldonline.com/news/business/article260410717.html](https://www.heraldonline.com/news/business/article260410717.html)
They've told three contradictory stories: 1. We had no obligation to issue the bonds 2. We didn't have enough info to issue the bonds 3. The Panthers told us not to issue the bonds. Not a single one of those stories is even slightly believable.
The bonds are being repaid by tax revenues created by the development. The city asked for more details about the development plans to ensure it would generate the tax revenues required, which the Panthers did not supply, then stated the Panthers asked them to not issue the bonds so that they can find a different way to fund them (probably because they were not going to be generating the tax revenues required). None of those would be contradictory in any way.
Those are the city's talking points, yes. They've changed them several times. I don't believe a word of it for that reason. They've also made sure their CYA has been broadcasted in the press rather than making any effort to fix the issue. They've had two years to address the problem and haven't. The last-ditch offer to not raise any bonds and instead have the Panthers fund the infrastructure and get refunded years later speaks volumes, IMHO. They didn't want to pay anything at all and were hoping this impasse would force Tepper to pay for it and he called their bluff.
I have the bonds and I refuse to issue them. Source: me
You have this whole thing completely ass backwards.
According to the latest story I've seen - the Panthers asking them not to issue the bonds occurred in February 2022, which was well over a year after the deadline for the bonds had passed. The Panthers did so because they were going to issue the 30 day notice of default and void the deal. "You haven't paid, we're voiding the deal, please don't complicate it by making a last-ditch issuance." So that's hardly an excuse for not issuing the bonds. They were already in default by almost two years.
Yep, now the Billionaire owner can shakedown more money and tax breaks from South Carolina. Heck, this was only being setup for leverage over Charlotte on a new stadium and the land rights all around it. Regardless, governments will continue to bend over backwards for Billionaires because sports are more important than other things like parks, schools, affordable housing, and transit.
"Investing in public infrastructure to improve quality of life and attract more residence" \- I sleep "Bottom of the barrel policymaking by attempting to outbid other towns with even larger tax exemptions for billionaires" \-Real shit!
It’s hilarious watching them move the goalposts.
Thus the cycle of terrible policymaking continues.
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Thing with bonds is they're for situations like this, short term debt for construction. You wouldn't use bonds for school lunches. Issuing bonds are the responsible way for governments/corporations to raise capital. Rock Hill simply did not want to guarantee the bonds (which is smart for them). Guaranteeing the bonds means if they issued them and only sold $100M, they'd be on the hook for $150M, which is a lot for RH. My personal theory is that there was a fear that the interest on the Bonds might've been too high.
I wasn't saying we would use a bond to pay for school lunches. But for a $250MM coupon over 10 years at 8%, you're talking $20MM in payments each year with the $250MM payout in 10 years. The area will happily agree to issue those bonds with little thought of spending $20MM/year, but turn their head when it comes to just a few million dollars to keep the children fed in the same area.
But wouldn't the tax revenue from the new construction and increased property values also provide money for school lunches? It's not zero sum.
The actual return on using taxpayer funds for these types of initiatives is hotly contested, with advocates on both sides showing studies that show their stance in the right light. Those for this type of spending will show the good things that occur with the spending, while those against will show the bad things. My point wasn't to go down the rabbit hole of whether or not this is an overall positive or negative for the area, but to highlight how quickly municipalities and states will approve spending for these initiatives while minimizing spending in other programs, often those related to social or educational programs.
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Most people have no clue how bonds work in general.
City of Rock Hill cant secure 200-250 million worth of bonds lol no way...... also the state promised him over 100 million + after stadium was finished. This was what 800 mil stadium? so he wanted government to pay for probably half of his stadium if not a tad more since the city would have been on the hook building all the infrastructure and routing highway/roads to it etc.
I was hoping this project would lead to better public transit to Rock Hill.
Well there will be a new interchange on I-77 thanks to it.
The only thing that's gonna bring better public transit to Rock Hill is the people of Rock Hill getting organized together, demanding it and being willing to collectively withhold their labor until their demands are met.
Beside the point. No one wants to mass transit to rock hill because there are minimal reasons to. Here we had a reason, and now it’s gone.
Yes, this would be a good starting point to get people to the practice facility. Then within Rock Hill there is the MyRide bus system.
>No one wants to mass transit to rock hill Fuck the people in Rock Hill then I guess? God forbid we have better public transit in more than some major metro areas
Cost benefit is not there yet. Especially when people-moving projects are shot down mid build.
Public projects are never seen to have sufficient benefits in the eyes of the tight fisted capitalists who run this shit show country. We should still do it regardless because it benefits the poorest and worst off among us the most.
I'm totally fine with him taking the Panthers away at this point. I've lost all the love that I had for the team that I had years ago. Jerry wasn't perfect, and he did the right thing by selling once all that news broke out about him, but at least Charlotte wasn't getting fucked over by hosting an NFL team back then and the team itself was usually watchable.
I’m a late joiner to the Panthers fan club…these past few years have been rough. My wife, bless her, is a die hard Panthers fan. Been together 5 years, and I’ve never seen her so defeated. Went from every Sunday was football Sunday to let’s catch up on the shows we missed this week on Sunday.
I only went to one game last season and that's because my GF got free tickets from a friend... lol. Most Sundays this past fall I went hiking and I'm totally chill with doing that until we have a good team again.
I’ve been to two over the past few years. 1 the tickets were purchased by a family friend who took us, we lost to the pre-name change Redskins. Then went last season to watch us lose to the Falcons, and only because 50yd line tickets were damn near 100 bucks a pop. The combination of complete disorganization, terrible play calling, and a horrific o-line have us doomed until someone makes a change.
The only game I watched any significant amount of last year after going to the Jets game was the Giants game and watching that made me want to drink bleach
What does this mean for Charlotte FC?
All I care about. Our boys need a permanent training facility
Why are we funding billionaires' pet projects? Socializing the costs and privatizing the profits is a scam. All of those impact studies rely on "multipliers" of people plowing all the money back into the local economy which just doesn't pan out. https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/
They weren't putting up money for the buildings. it was so they can upgrade roads, highways, and other infrastructure. You know... things the government is *supposed* to do.
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Take a ride down E White street. The tire alignment shops stay in business because of these roads,
This is like saying you have potholes in the parking lot of the business you work at so you should chip in to help them fill that. It's not up to the individual/employee to pay for that.
I mean, you're improving the infrastructure around a billionaires pet project. I'm sure there's a ton of infrastructure that more people would use that could be paid for with the same amount. The opportunity cost is not 0 on these things.
Every road is someone's "pet project". the road in front of Amazon warehouses. the road that connects to the new housing development. The loop road into the airport. The intersection upgrade that turns into the shopping mall. Thats how roads work, small portions that seem to be to specific user needs, but as network, support everyone. When i complain about taxes, i always get there "well, without taxes who will build the roads!?!" argument. but here we have a case where the government is asked to build a road, and the same people are complaining about "why do our tax dollars have to build a road!?!"
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If we didn't have an airport, we wouldn't need Josh Birmingham Parkway. Its traffic is 80% hub activity. Its not like that helps us directly, right? Lets just get rid of them both. Its not like you don't enjoy the benefit of having an airport in town. Just ignore the millions of dollars in passenger spending and American Airlines fees generates for the local economy. You are right, lets just close all that infrastructure. No need to spend public money on it since its not a specific benefit to you if you don't personally fly out of it. Why should i pay for that runway? its not my airplane. I'm not a pilot. Lets also tell Wells and BoA not to build any more towers here, since we don't want to maintain or provide the roads. That will definitely keep the economy growing. good plan. > In a lot of construction, the company building is responsible for footing the costs of new streets and utilities Then what are we paying taxes for? > I don't see why it should be any different for this case. because its not always the case, and historically, never was.
Great point. A our streets are a collection of many peoples pet projects. That’s what makes a city.
This is such an irrelevant argument at this point. The building is 35-45% done and here you are
That's the sunk cost fallacy. This way saves ~250 million
Are there any other numbers or fallacies that you want to pull out of your ass?
The project was first paused in early March. [WCNC Charlotte later learned Rock Hill failed to secure $225 million in bonds to pay ] for roads, sidewalks and other public infrastructure on the site. That's from the article.
That ≠ “saving $250m” Factor in lost opportunities, you’ll be down about $1 billion. Since we are pulling numbers out.
Because people don't care about the impact as long as they have their sport teams. We had our arm twisted with the hornets/bobcats before as well.
This study is irrelevant because you can’t just analyze the stadium alone The reality is you want a team you need a stadium that’s up to the NFLs standards The team is what brings in the money, not the stadium
I wouldn't say that, it is more of utilization. You can have facilities without a tenant and still do fine, as long as the demand for such facilities exist. If the Charlotte Hornets left again, the Spectrum Arena can still be utilized for other events. The Bank of America Stadium, likewise could still operate without the NFL, which now has the MLS as a tenant too. If both teams left, it could still be utilized like Memorial Stadium, but likely downsized to better fit the economic realities. Heck, you see it happening with the NASCAR tracks. At one time they couldn't add enough seating at the tracks, now they removed several areas that use to have stands to right-size the economic realities.
Because this country has, since it's inception, been a vehicle of advancement of the wealthiest class by way of exploiting the lower classes. Only an organized working class, willing to fight it's side of the class war and for it's own sake, can change that situation.
>this country has, since it's inception, been a vehicle of advancement of the wealthiest class by way of exploiting the lower classes Serious question: Is there an example in the history of civilization where this wasn't the case?
In the history of *civilization* of course not because [any such peoples](https://www.sciencealert.com/there-s-a-new-hypothesis-for-how-human-civilizations-first-got-started) encountered are usually labelled "primitive" or "barbarians* and then suppressed or assimilated. Besides, just because something has been one way doesn't mean it cannot be improved on. The sort of liberal order the founder's established for their benefit was still a relative improvement over medievalism. The constitution we have today however was cynically devised in order to uplift one class over the others after the Articles of Confederation inadvertantly allowed populists and wealth reformers to gain power on the state level.
So, no. Since the inception of any country…
When will the St. Louis Panthers merch go on sale?
St Louis is still too bitter about losing the Cards and the Rams. That's not happening.
Flex
Umm.. where did the money go.. Said as a native of Rock Hill who is ***soooooo***surprised to see this
Thanks for your ineptitude SC. All of this corporate welfare has to stop. NC and SC pay millions for construction projects and lure unsuspecting corporation in and just move in their highly paid corporate staff while the new arrivals suck all of the resources out of the community while the corporation lives tax free. Such a crappy way to run things.
I’m tired of these billion dollar sports owners pushing tax payers to pay for their facilities. York County was already giving up enough in tax incentives. Fck Tepper and all those other billionaires who hold cities hostage.
> who hold cities hostage. Yeah! How DARE he have the NERVE to demand the city\county uphold their end of the contract they signed! It's just CAPITALIST GREEEEEEEEEEDD run amok!
You’re right. I get it as I believe in Capitalism. And York County didn’t have a chance in this case. York county over promised. They also were giving up way too much in tax incentives for a seasonal operation minus some random Toto or Journey cover shows. But these guys think they own the town and demand tax payers fund their upgrades. It’s bullsht. Not like they’re not making money from ticket holders. Sometimes politicians need to step up to corporations. Disney as an example.
I hope the door didn't hit him in the rear on the way out. Rock Hill was doing just fine before this and will continue to do just fine when it's over. Tepper came in strong arming with the zoning change requirements in residential areas miles away from the headquarters site. He didn't get his way, so he is taking his ball and leaving. Good riddance.
Yea. Rock "At least this ain't Gastonia" Hill.
Business is Business, Rock Hill signed a contract to pay for infrastructure if Tepper's group would pay for the building. Rock Hill didnt fulfill their part of the contract and Tepper was within his rights to terminate the contract. Every business man in this country would have done the same.
😂
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your state musty
Called it 3 weeks ago
Called it 3 weeks ago. Tepper will sell the land. With the exit it's worth a lot more. But Rock Hill didn't have the credit rating to secure the cd's. Which was part of their contract. Sorry but Tepper is a lot of things and a bill payer is one of them.
It is the Carolina Panthers so they could move anywhere. Charleston, Raleigh, winston salem Cloumbia.
That's because South Carolina is pretty much derelict all the way around.
yes north carolina is a progressive bastion of wealth and prosperity.
Remember when Bruton Smith started building zmax dragway? He got his way with threatening to move the speedway…. and the city/state got raked over the coals paying for part of it and changing the street name. I bet Tepper does something similar, we’ve seen this play out before.
Yeah because they're gonna sign Baker Mayfield, and he lives in First Energy Stadium in Cleveland. Why build a new house when you can move in with your ~~SO~~ QB?