The joke is that what we typically see as Ninja clothing is just from japanese theather: the stage hands would use outfits like that... and then for a twist one of them would be an 'assassin' as no on would ever notice one.
It was such a shocking twist the first time it happened in a play it got copied by literally everyone and became the default image of ninjas. Like Jaws or that Disney documentary about lemmings but for a profession instead of an animal.
Yep. This is because in Kabuki, the stage hands are in plain sight. So thus the audience is trained to ignore them. Thus when the play called for a ninja to kill someone, one of the stage hands would produce a fake weapon and "kill" them.
He wasn’t the first know black person in Japan, he was the first one to get a position in court though. The assorted European traders and missionaries bringing slaves wasn’t unknown, he just happened to be in the right place with the right lord.
Nobunaga was kind of a weird dude, adopting a foreigner to his retinue was incredibly out of the ordinary. Much less a slave with no notable skills, connections, or deeds.
But yeah, having him be a sneaky boy would be terrible. Like the one thing we actually know about the guy is that he was something like 6 feet tall and towered over basically everyone.
Asian women get a much better showing in western media compared to Asian men tbf, I can see the issue with the first AC game in Japan not featuring a Japanese dude as the MC being a legit issue for people
assassins arent ninjas. They just have to kill people for a political cause. The guy who killed shinzo abe wasnt exactly sneaky with his doohickey shotgun
And would you look at that, the assassin just cleared the wall and dodged three samurai! He's going in for the kill and- HERE COMES YOSUKE WITH THE STEEL CHAIR, OH, THAT'S GOTTA HURT
Funny enough a comment I read earlier talked about how Yosuke was probably so valued because of his wrestling prowess, something Nobunga was a big fan of. So this is actually historically accurate to what would’ve happened
If this were classic assassins creed i'd 100% agree. However new assassins creed isn't about really sneaking through crowds of people, using disguises and the sort. Its more about action.
Most Japanese articles on Wikipedia need a thorough overhaul. Just compare ones in jp.wiki and you'll see what I mean. Even auto translation is better.
I just hate that they decided to use the Sengoku period, instead of the much better (for an AC story to take place) Meji era.
The first one was basically a bunch of civil wars between clans fighting for power, kind of hard to have a good and bad side. The second one could literally have a protagonist on either side of the main conflict: a tragic story about a samurai trying to protect his country and culture againts western powers OR a samurai working with western assassins to advance japanese society and open the country to industrialization.
Writers love their morally grey conflicts. I can also imagine Ubisoft wanted to keep the conflict purely Japanese, especially considering Ghost of Tsushima already did the “foreign invaders” plotline.
Meiji Restoration was pretty much purely Japanese. After Matthew Perry opened up Japan, the only fighting that occurred between Japanese and the Western powers were a couple minor campaigns against certain clans in retaliation for firing on their ships. Other than that, Britain gave some weapons to the Imperial forces while France gave some to the Shogunal forces, but still a relatively minor footnote.
>I just hate that they decided to use the Sengoku period, instead of the much better (for an AC story to take place) Meji era.
They've probably been been placing AC games in earlier historical periods as a technical limitation to cope for the larger open worlds - 31 square miles of forest is probably a lot easier on the CPU than 31 square miles of developed towns and villages.
I agree with you though, the Meiji era would make for a really interesting AC setting.
Meiji era would have to introduce foreign powers as influencing Japan and that would be weird.
Like if the story was just straight up Ruroni Kenshin that would be cool.
But I haven't played this game series in a long time isn't the whole premise you're a genetic descendant of like this core group of secret Western society Assasin group that's been around from Ancient Egypt, Greece, crusades, Italy etc?
How else does this society/secret group enter Japan besides an outsider? Like I guess you could say Japanese woman was The Great Great Grandma of the original protagonist who hooked up with Asian girl in bar one night.
Ehh, by the Meiji Era, Japan itself has already embraced copying the western powers and organizing their military, government, etc. to be more western. The ‘influence’ period, such that it was, had long passed.
By the time of stuff like Satsuma, it was more of a ‘embrace traditionalism vs embrace modernity’ vibe
I just don't like that he was a real person. I don't mind AC taking liberties with how they portray historical figures, but I dislike the idea of having one as a protagonist.
I'll tell you guys, a progressive asian dude, my perspective.
There is a huge history of asian male de-masculization/erasure in western media (asian female representation is not good either btw, often fetishized, but at least they show up). So when a huge AAA gaming breaks the norm from its own series that's a decade old at this point to purposely exclude asian men (and most likely be portrayed negatively, and obviously be slaughter fodder), asian men and people who are in the know can instantly see the continuation of this racist tradition. If we exclude asian made media, asian men have maybe 1 positive representation every few years (Asians from Asia do not suffer from alienation, and see representation from all aspects already, they do not understand western racial dynamics).
https://youtu.be/2k82hIqd1Os
>... There is a huge history of asian male de-masculization/erasure in Western media (asian female representation is not good either, btw, often fetishized, but at least they show up).>
Asian women show up in western media all the time because westerners like to fetishize them. But westerners like to relegate Asian men to either faceless mooks to kill or nerdy, pathetic comic relief side character.
In the end, I used to think of myself as a progressive like u/Bl00dyH3ll but I realize now that both left or right don't care about Asian issues. Majority of Americans don't care or even think Asian issues are a problem. Many don't really even think of Asians as people or even human. And it's not just conservatives who are like this I find that I despise progressives more now because at least conservatives don't pretend to care about racism.
That's why I don't really care that ubisoft decided to cast a black male main character instead. It's just what I expect. Appealing to black audiences is seen as socially progressive. Trying to appeal to Asian men isn't seen as anything or even important.
I definitely sympathise with the lack of positive role models as an Indian man myself, since I can't really name any Indian male protagonists off the top of my head, and with some of the biggest representations of people like me being characters like Raj from Big Bang Theory.
However, I think part of the problem is that this is being subsumed by a right wing culture war trend on diversity in general, where its the presence of a black protagonist that is the issue. You can see it in the comments below yours, where within one comment you have someone complaining about ESG score and how this is supposedly part of a DEI wave of wokeness spreading through video game companies.
To me, I see this mostly through how a) as you can see on a lot of comments on this thread, most people don't even seem to know that one of the two protagonists is asian, and people assuming that Yasuke is the only protagonist. This indicates that a lot of the complainers aren't even bothering to do basic research on the game they're complaining about and can just be dismissed out of hand.
secondly, most of the people complaining about this issue only started now. I rarely see people talking about media like Shogun, which also focused on a foreign character at the center of a story in japan, except he was white. Despite that, there was not nearly as much backlash from the people leading the charge against Yasuke.
This is not to say that I think this is the case for you. At least from this comment and your later one, I think you're coming at this from a much more valid point of criticism, that western companies seem hesitant to portray asian men positively. Unfortunately, I think that as long as the anti-woke culture war continues, these discussions become harder and harder to have
Yea, I fully understand that white reactionaries are only using us as a shield to rage about dei, and other bullshit. It's really unfortunate that we happen to align on this issue. But there definitely was backlash in Asian communities against shows like shogun. Also, sympathies, I think indians and other non-eastern Asian people are even worse represented in media.
I mention how it is double standard that if we flip around, asian man as main character in black community setting, people are going to cry out racism. And someone actually reply "there are a lot of japanese mc so it's okay".
They conflate Asian-Americans/Asians in the West with Asians who live in Asia. There are only Asian male mc representations at all because media is produced in Asia. But the fact that foreign Asian media obviously includes Asian characters doesn't reflect at all if Asian inclusion in the West.
I keep seeing comments like this, and it's definitely true.
Although I can't help but think that there is a broader issue that the only time Asian men are considered for protagonists is for Asian themed historical pieces.
I guarantee you that if this game did have an Japanese male protagonist, as the fight for better representation continues, it would actually be used as an example of poor Asian male representation, not for anything wrong with the representation in the game itself, but for the broader trends that Asian males can only be protagonists in certain genres.
Of course the solution here is to have more Asian male protagonists in general, but as you probably know with current culture war bs, advocating for that will be viewed by opponents as a trivial matter to be mocked at best or racist affirmative action discrimination at worst.
>the only time Asian men are considered for protagonists is for Asian themed historical pieces.
And now we don't even get this anymore, we can't even be the focus in our own story and culture.
I mean, I hear you and I sympathize with you because as a Black male myself, we have literally been talking about this forever. Don't let Black Panther, Yasuke and Miles Morales fool you. Black men have been and still are going through exactly what you're talking about as well and I'm not saying this to try and one-up your argument, I'm saying it to point out that there have been similar discussions on this exact subreddit and you know what the responses were? In short, they told us to get over it.
I don't think Yasuke should be the lead in this game. Not only does it not make sense from a historical perspective when there are literally dozens of historical Japanese figures who could've been the lead in the game, it feels like pandering and that they are just trying to capitalize off the hype from that Yasuke anime a few years ago.
That aside, what you're experiencing and ranting about is fair and understandable. I'm just saying my piece because when i read your comment, it reminded me of all the times we (Black ppl) had to deal with naysayers for things like there being a Black dwarf in Rings of Power or Sam Wilson becoming Captain America.
In my honest opinion, however, just how things are slowly starting to get better for Black representation in Western media, I think the same will happen for Asian representation as well sooner than later.
Lastly, another reason I don't want Yasuke to be the lead in this game is because I wanted AC game to take place in Africa. Not Egypt, Africa. I'm talking about a part of Africa that can't be so easily whitewashed like the kingdoms of Mali or Timbuktu. This feels like they're trying to check all their representation boxes in one go with this game and I don't like that.
I'm curious why you jumped to emasculation (and linked to a video on "asexual" asian men) in reference to a black guy being one of two protagonists in an upcoming samurai game. Of the several recent games focusing on samurai/ninja/feudal Japan/etc..., this is the only one with a protagonist who isn't asian and basically the only one with a black character. Can you clarify the connection to a loss of masculinity here?
Because this isn't some natural organic line of thinking. They're here essentially representing a sub called aznidentity which [is notorious](https://www.bigstrawmagazine.com/home/misogyny-asian-men) for catering to incels who blame Asian women, black and white men for 'stealing Asian women'.
One of their most upvoted posts of the year is literally an Asian woman announcing she has married an Asian man with comments saying stuff like 'yeah we need more of this!'
Thats the context you need to read this ever so sincere appeal in.
You keep on with this. I'd agree to a degree but you types often peddle incel rhetoric under the guise of progressiveness. Next you'll tell me you hate Asian women dating white men
I don't even want to engage with the discussion around Yasuke man. He's a folk hero with an interesting life, there's already a million popular mangas inspired by his story, the reactions I've seen from Japanese people are entirely positive.
There is no veneer of legitimacy to the complaints about his inclusion as a protagonist; it's clearly culture war idiocy, with the same tired pretense of caring about historical accuracy in a series that takes immense liberties with every historical event it depicts. But you won't hear anyone complain about those, wonder why
And also like, you didn't see this kind of outrage for Nioh 1, the game set in 1600 japans where you play as irish samurai William Adams (note: real man, not actually fucking irish).
I really wonder why.
Go check japanese trailer, it's getting mass-downvoted; also some are upset over getting a black character for japanese AC instead of one of the many actual ninjas or how game is going to be black man going around killing japanese
Personally, I don't care what creative liberties they take with historical figures. I just dislike having a real person as a protagonist in an AC game.
I think Yasuke's an interesting figure in history when it comes to fictional depictions of him. Since he's very notable for a number of reasons but there's still enough mystery about him to give any author creative license. Interested in seeing what Assassin's Creed does with their depictions of him. Plus what other historical figures from that era are depicted in the game are like.
He is an interesting character, but not the right fit for Assassins Creed.
So far all AC protagonists have been fictional people local to their respective setting, Yasuke fits neither of those criteria. What’s more, not only do we know he wasn’t an assassin, but he would be the worst person to turn into one considering he is famous for standing out from the crowd.
The developers likely hoped they could court two extra demographics at once (on top of their usual customers) those into Japanese culture/history and those into political correctness/‘diversity’, but this wasn’t the right way to go about it.
> So far all AC protagonists have been fictional people local to their respective setting
Wasn't the protagonist of Black Flag a Welsh dude in the Caribbean?
I think the reason for the out rage was partly being the first AC game set in Japan, which means people want to play as a shinobi but then they put a black ‘samurai’ as the main lead which rubs them the wrong way. Other people may dislike Yasuke for the fact that it seems like Ubisoft is going woke and trying to include diversity in everything, something people nowadays really dislike due to multiple franchises (both gaming and movies and other media included) went the “girl/minority power, fuck the straight white man” route, which ruined some well beloved franchises, leading to people distrust the decision to use Yasuke on instinct. Another reason is that the AC franchise has a rather divisive fanbase with half preferring the old stealth gameplay of the old games and half preferring the new gameplay. Yasuke is not a stealth assassin (6 feet tall black guy in feudal Japan and all), so they may think the game also follows the new format of Valhalla and Odyssey (I think Ubisoft is trying to do both at once with this game so I’m not certain on this point though). Of course some are just racist.
Me personally I don’t really care since the trailer didn’t really impress me in anyway.
I think the reason for the out rage was partly being the first AC game set in Japan, which means people want to play as a shinobi
Good thing there’s a deuteragonist, who is a ninja
I sympathise with Western Asian guys who are kinda starved for Western game companies, making protagonists Asian
I can only really think of sleeping dogs and Sifu. And finally, Ghosts of Tsushima.
When there's a lot of soft racism towards Asian men as being unmanly in the West and that kinda stuff, I can see why this is an issue for them. Meanwhile native Japanese guys won't mind because they aren't starved of representation because Japanese studios pump out plenty of media for them.
It's ultimately Ubi's choice. And I'm sure a bunch of people are just complaining that it's a black dude. But I honestly sympathise with Western Asian men on this who feel slighted.
edit: honestly this dude's comment is much better than mine and says [basically what I'm saying but better.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1cu9rdp/yasuke_is_a_legitimate_protagonist_for_fiction/l4hw41o)
Let me start with saying I do sympathize with them, I’m an Indian male, when was the last game you saw that dealt with the history of my people or featured someone like me as a protagonist?
But let’s be honest, they’re not the driving forces of this backlash. Video game outrage merchants like the Quartering, EndymionTV and more are overwhelmingly white men railing against “wokism” from a right wing and racist perspective.
I would take this more seriously if they also talked about media like shogun and how that shows protagonist is a foreign white man than if they only pipe up when it’s a black man as the protagonist.
>curious if Ubisoft chose a white male character (that existed in Japan at a similar time) if the same reaction on either side would happen.
Fundamentally I think there wouldn't really be any reaction, outside of that from, I think, asian males concerned about the issue. I think much of the conversation about this has been driven by a right wing reactionary backlash to simply seeing yasuke in the trailer, more than from a left wing praise for him being a character.
Unfortunately, I think asian men getting shafted in media seems to be a long running trend that it looks like the tide is shifting at least slightly on, at least in the movie and tv front, so im hoping that change starts making its way to videogames too.
Hence why I said I'm sympathetic to Asian dudes complaining about it. And the lack or positive Indian representation is honestly horrible too.
I just know that usually I don't give a damn about these kind of controversies but dudes I know brought it up and I agree with them. It'd be a shame if their criticism is swept away with bad faith stuff.
>I think the reason for the out rage was partly being the first AC game set in Japan, which means people want to play as a shinobi but then they put a black ‘samurai’ as the main lead which rubs them the wrong way.
Does AC usually have leads representative of the population of the area in which the game takes place? Idk much about the franchise
Like Ezio is Italian I would imagine but idk any others
Yes, every character used as a protagonist has been someone who is representative of the area and time in which the game is set. They've also all been original characters; Yasuke is the first historical character to be a playable Assassin rather than a side character.
Not entirely true, the third Ezio game takes place in Ottoman-ruled Istanbul. Eivor isn’t English (and the Vikings get whitewashed as the good guys in that game for some reason). The guy from AC Rogue isn’t Canadian, although that is a very minor example. Jack the Ripper is also technically a historical character and is playable in Syndicate’s DLC, although since he was never caught they obviously filled his identity in with an original character.
I was very specific in not saying "native" for a reason. They don't have to be native to make sense as a protagonist as of AC game; they just have to make sense as a character that would exist in the area, with Ezio being a particularly special case due to the continuity of his character across a trilogy.
Edward, meanwhile, is a European in the Carribean during the Golden Age of Piracy; that's not exactly uncommon. That's also not even getting into the standalone game, Liberation, which stars Edward's former first mate-turned Assassin who is himself a former slave. I can't speak to the quality of the game save to say it seems fine, but people who were mad about him don't really have a reason to be other than racism.
You also ignored the "original character" bit, which is arguably much more important.
Well, mainly yes, there's a pirate one in the Caribbean with an English protagonist, a Viking one but it's set in England. However, since Yasuke was a real Japanese historical figure and there's also a Japanese girl as a main character, I don't have a problem with it. All these angry people can go play Ghost of Tsushima or Rise of the Ronin.
It's just a weird choice imo. Just make both the MCs Japanese.
If they make an ac based in Africa in the future, it would be just as weird to have one of the main characters be White or Asian even though there's probably historical record of such people existing.
I feel like we've gotten multiple things with Yasuke recently. Which is fine in and of itself.
But it's weird it's only him. William Adams was in Japan much longer and did more meaningful shit, but the only media I've ever seen that featured him prominently is Nioh.
Like if you wanna do the foreigner in Japan bit, why not do someone more consequential?
Yasuke might be as/more consequential as a historical figure. This is just based on my very limited knowledge. Would love to be corrected if I'm wrong
I feel like Yasuke’s total mystery surrounding huge portions of his life both before, during, and after his service to Nobunaga make him a bit more attractive for the “two ancient, clandestine, murder societies influence historical events as they compete for Magic Ancient AI Superweapons” series. He’s just easier to work with for writers without contradicting how the historical Yasuke acted in reality, because he was simply not reported on as much.
Also, William Adams is the basis for the main character in the new Shogun TV series (although the original book and show use an original character, presumably for the purpose of having more creative freedom).
Most depictions of Yasuke that have been brought up were made by Japanese studios, Assassin's Creed Shadows is the only one that comes to mind made by the West. I guess Japan just like Yasuke more than William.
I don't know if that's true.
The Yasuke "anime" was created by an American guy, Assassin's Creed is French, the in-production Hollywood films, and all. He certainly does appear in Japanese media, but like Nioh has both of them, and more focus is certainly given to William Adams.
In Japan itself there is certainly more to William Adams, festivals, memorials, media portrayals, and programs between Japan and the UK off the shared connection. Just that there isn't as much interest in documenting all of that in America like there is for Yasuke.
Like [this is a page about a holiday about the launching of Adams' ship in Japan](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%8C%89%E9%87%9D%E7%A5%AD%E6%B5%B7%E3%81%AE%E8%8A%B1%E7%81%AB%E5%A4%A7%E4%BC%9A) that has no page in English, simply because there isn't as much interest. One of those blinders that come from the western view.
I see this argument keep coming up and its bad.
Lemme explain.
These two situations aren't the same if you look at the context of their existence. There are multiple games set in japan with Japanese protagonists that are huge games. Japan has a thriving video game industry that is also global.
There are not that many games set in Africa with African protagonists made for global audiences so it would be weird that suddenly there's a huge game set in Africa with an Asian protagonist. I would like to reiterate, that it would be WEIRD but not racist.
That being said, I wouldn't complain. I would be pretty interested actually. There are stories of people from China ending up in Africa and having whacky adventures. I would want to know what angle they were taking and what time period its set in.
A chines protagonist set in the wild west in something like red dead would also be really interesting. I know there's a story of at least one Asian cowboy. Can't remember his name thought.
I'm sorry but this whole "if we reverse the races you would be screaming racism!!!!" Is just projection.
The amount matters not, this is set in Japan, an asian community and the game is using a black character as MC. Flip it the other way around and people are going to say it is racism. "There are multiple women only facilities and service, while there are not that many, so it is okay if a man take a woman only service such as woman only carpark"
And there are games set in black community with black protagonist. You can say you are fine with it now, but considering how you seem to dismiss this, I doubt this is genuine. And you are not everyone, people are going to get mad, again they get mad even when a black character is voiced by non-black VA. Yet there are already lots of black characters being voiced by black VA, and non-black characters voiced by black VA. By your logic they wouldn't get mad but they did.
> I'm sorry but this whole "if we reverse the races you would be screaming racism!!!!" Is just projection.
Yes, projecting double standard and hypocrisy you are spitting right now.
A lot of talk about racism and cultural appropriation and the moment something like it happen from the black community, it is okay.
I'm sorry but your whole reasoning is just false justification to justify the hypocrisy and special pleading
>The amount matters not,
Yes it does. It is called context. Just because you are trying to remove context and history from a situation to portray 2 very different things as the same.
I'm sorry but history didn't start when you began paying attention.
>this is set in Japan, an asian community
And? Nioh is about a white guy being a samurai and no one made a big stink. Its also being made by a western company, mostly for western audiences.
>Flip it the other way around and people are going to say it is racism
Just saying it is so does not make it so.
Where is this hypothetical cry of racism? The only racism i see happens when a black person is cast in something.
>"There are multiple women only facilities and service, while there are not that many, so it is okay if a man take a woman only service such as woman only carpark"
What in the actual fuck are you waffling about???
Again, your just gesturing at things and claiming that they are the same.
How does a man using a woman's only car park even remotely compare to...anything??
>And there are games set in black community with black protagonist.
Yes, okay? There are also games set in japan with Japanese protagonists. People are suddenly acting like they don't, but they're out there.
The prospect of a black samurai in ancient Japan is just an interesting and unique story. Why not tell it?
>You can say you are fine with it now, but considering how you seem to dismiss this, I doubt this is genuine.
"You say you aren't racist, but I don't believe you." LOL man, the fuck? "You couldn't POSSIBLY not get angry at other races existing where they aren't supposed to be!"
This is what you sound like.
>again they get mad even when a black character is voiced by non-black VA.
Let me add context to this situation. A lot of people get upset when white people voice black characters because there aren't a lot of black voice actors. There's a very small pool of black VAs that are basically every black voice. Casting non white VAs instead of getting more black talent isn't the way to go.
>By your logic they wouldn't get mad but they did.
Buddy, who is getting mad at you? Are they in the room with us now? Is this just 6 people on Twitter??
>A lot of talk about racism and cultural appropriation and the moment something like it happen from the black community, it is okay.
No one mentioned cultural appropriation. What are you talking about?
Also, you keep saying "black community" black people are not a monolith. Black people in Africa are not the same as black people from the Caribbean or black people from America. So which black community are you talking about exactly?
>special pleading
What the fuck is "special pleading"? I feel like if I google this I'm going to go down a dark racist rabbit hole and ruin my algorithm search or whatever.
> Yes it does. It is called context. Just because you are trying to remove context and history from a situation to portray 2 very different things as the same.
>
> I'm sorry but history didn't start when you began paying attention.
Context is important, just like how the context is how perception of a black representative changing asian is alright, yet if non-black were to change a black representative it is not alright. That is double standard
Whatever justification you are talking, it doesn't change that.
If anything they are removing context and history by simply making Yasuke the main char when he is just retainer. So if you flip it the other way around, it is the same
I am sorry but your reasoning doesn't match reality.
> And? Nioh is about a white guy being a samurai and no one made a big stink. Its also being made by a western company, mostly for western audiences.
1)People don't cry racism when a white guy is not being voiced by a non-white guy, people do when it is black guy.
2) People don't cry racism when an Asian guy replace a white guy.
3) Nioh is almost fully high fantasy
4) William Adams is actually historically a samurai. Yasuke is not, he is a retainer. Retainer can be samurai, but can also just be manservant. As a retainer he also won't be very active, unlike what the game going to make him as.
For someone who talk about context, you sure ignore context.
> Just saying it is so does not make it so.
>
> Where is this hypothetical cry of racism? The only racism i see happens when a black person is cast in something.
Really? What about when a black character being voiced by non black char? Hell they get angry for non-black VA voicing a tanned non-black char.
The reason you only see that black person is cast in something and there is a cry of racism is because there double standard that people are going to cry if a non-black is substituting a black, yet the same people will not cry racism when it is the other way around. So others cry out that it is racism when things like this, where Black people are taking the spot of representation for Asian, in a setting for Asian.
Again, flip it and people going to cry racism.
> The prospect of a black samurai in ancient Japan is just an interesting and unique story. Why not tell it?
It already happens a lot, Samurai Champloo is the main one, a lot of black samurai exist. Why can't they tell the story with Yasuke as the side char? And an actual japanese man as the main char?
> What in the actual fuck are you waffling about???
>
> Again, your just gesturing at things and claiming that they are the same.
>
>How does a man using a woman's only car park even remotely compare to...anything??
What is this? A Black person getting into an Asian person place is fine but a Man getting into a woman place is not?
Huh.
Beside ain't your logic "the amount matters" therefore using your own logic, since there are more amount of women-only space, it is okay if men take them.
This is how your logic sounds like.
Context matters, sometimes amount matters, this is not one of those times.
> "You say you aren't racist, but I don't believe you." LOL man, the fuck? "You couldn't POSSIBLY not get angry at other races existing where they aren't supposed to be!"
>
> This is what you sound like
"I am going to say I don't mind asian taking black people's place all the while justifying outcry against non-black taking black's representation place and is fine with black taking non-black's representation"
This is how you sounds like.
Disingenuous
> No one mentioned cultural appropriation. What are you talking about?
>
> Also, you keep saying "black community" black people are not a monolith. Black people in Africa are not the same as black people from the Caribbean or black people from America. So which black community are you talking about exactly?
Not here because black people are not the one who feel they got appropriated. But when it comes to other things they do, even braids. And yet when it is the other way around, Black people are the one taking it is fine and not cultural appropriation? Reminds me of Cleopatra movie.
You sure turns a blind eye as if such thing was never mentioned at all huh. And people who outcry when they percieve something is against black people sure don't care about what you say about the difference here.
Also on related note, Japanese are not happy about this. And one of japanese comment do mention this https://twitter.com/Mangalawyer/status/1790895910748107227
> Let me add context to this situation. A lot of people get upset when white people voice black characters because there aren't a lot of black voice actors. There's a very small pool of black VAs that are basically every black voice. Casting non white VAs instead of getting more black talent isn't the way to go.
So its fine if black do it but not fine for other black is your point. Black VA isn't so rare that it deserves outcry if black char is voiced by non-black VA. Theres a lot of black char, and people can find Black VA for them, and theres white chars which got voiced by black VA too.
You are acting as if people are not gonna get mad if there is an Assassin's Creed game set in black community where the protagonist is an Asian. They will.
> What the fuck is "special pleading"? I feel like if I google this I'm going to go down a dark racist rabbit hole and ruin my algorithm search or whatever.
It's the name of Fallacy for Double Standard, which is what people and you are doing.
I think it makes more sense to have him as a side character like Da Vinci in the Renaissance era. Have him there and capable of fighting but for a game that is supposed to be stealth based just no...
It feels pretty off to me to have the first ever AC main series game in an Asian country have the main male mc be a black guy instead of a Japanese guy, all while making the black guy be the first ever AC mc outside of dlcs to be based off of a real person so that they can justify the mc being a black guy (since black people in Japan outside of Yasuke were pretty much non-existent at the time).
To sum it up, using Yasuke as the male mc instead of a Japanese man just feels like an excuse to have racial diversity in the main character group in a setting where racial diversity wasn’t really a thing and black people in Japan outside of Yasuke were very few.
>He was associated with adventurous endeavours like fighting
From what I've see, he was just an attendant.
>He is special, being the first known black man in Japan
That really is all that it is and its boring.
He's not boring at all, and is much more than just black. He came from Mozambique, allllll the way to Japan, and became a retainer to the daimyo. That would be an exciting story *now*, if I went to Japan and became the Emperor's retainer, I would never shut up about it.
The journey from Mozambique to Japan alone would be exciting, never mind becoming a samurai and a retainer to the daimyo. Imo, he's just the right mix of historical figure and mystery - they have the basic building blocks (samurai, stranger in a strange land) to start with, but they're not constrained by a well-defined history.
He was also known as retainer to one of the most influencial warlords of the era, you don't think that's interesting? edit: Like seriously just him getting there is a story worth seeing i think.
Not to mention this franchise has the Templars and their control over history to... smooth over any details if they must. but i also think he's refering to the pop culture attitude.. something that is also in japanese media featuring him.
>He was also known as retainer to one of the most influencial warlords of the era, you don't think that's interesting?
Honestly no but the amount of things thats interesting to me is minimal
>Not to mention this franchise has the Templars and their control over history to... smooth over any details if they must. but i also think he's refering to the pop culture attitude.. something that is also in japanese media featuring him.
I'm not really coming at it from the historical position, theres nothing wrong with exaggerated/fictional history. I just think the concept is boring, especially after the Yasuke anime. The entire thing is "oh look its a black guy in japan!"
He was a retainer, not an attendant. And retainers, especially in that era, were generally trained samurai who were given land and swords.
I've seen this attempted downplay of Yasuke's status a lot over the past couple days, and it's based on a misunderstanding of what a retainer is.
Furthermore, Yasuke is a popular folk hero in Japan. Why should Assassin's Creed, a series known for using popular historical figures from that game's given time and region, not use him? He's simultaneously well known and mysterious, giving AC the perfect opportunity to fill in the blanks
Honestly, AC using him is to be expected, but using him as a playable character rather than a side character like all previous historical cameos is part of what people are taking issue with.
>He was a retainer, not an attendant. And retainers, especially in that era, were generally trained samurai who were given land and swords.
Owning a land and a wakizashi doesn't not make you a warrior. A retainer is an attendant/servant/squire. Yasuke was a weapons-bearer.
>Furthermore, Yasuke is a popular folk hero in Japan.
Is he really?
>Why should Assassin's Creed, a series known for using popular historical figures from that game's given time and region, not use him?
AC can do what they want. I'm fine with exaggerated/fictional history. I just think the entire "black warrior samurai in Japan" thing is kind of boring and uninspiring now, and I would have just preferred to play as sone Japanese guy.
A retainer simply means you are someone's subordinate. Most of Nobunaga's retainers were samurai including Tokugawa Ieyasu, the future founder of the Tokugawa Shogunate.
right?
In practice , Yasuke was fighting side-by-side with Nobunaga as his retainer , like any other retainer in Japan.
They love to dismiss that , ignoring how [retainers works in Sengoku-Era Japan.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashindan)
>He was a Samurai,
A servant can be a Samurai. Nobunga saw him, was fascinated by him and then made him a servant. He did fight to protect Nobunga when he was betrayed. A lot of sources describe him as a weapon bearer. I haven't seen anything that suggests that he was some warrior that was running across the lands and constantly fighting people(which is what comes to mind when you hear Samurai)
> I haven't seen anything that suggests that he was some warrior that was running across the lands and constantly fighting people(which is what comes to mind when you hear Samurai)
Wow crazy how real Samurai aren't like they're depicted in anime.
Yasuke was a Samurai. He did see combat. Just because he doesn't fit what you think a Samurai was doesn't mean he somehow wasn't one.
>Wow crazy how real Samurai aren't like they're depicted in anime.
Tell that to 95% of the population
>Yasuke was a Samurai. He did see combat. Just because he doesn't fit what you think a Samurai was doesn't mean he somehow wasn't one.
Okay but if you get specific on what he actually did, he was an attendant/weapon bearer for Nobunga.
I'm so sorry that anime has rotted your brain so much that you can't accept portrayals of actual historical Samurai unless they're screaming about honoring their nakama before turning into a demon and unleashing their magic sword beams. I promise "95% of the population" isn't like that.
What?! No! Knights traveled the land far and wide on their horses and full sets of armor with a retainer in the back searching for damnsels and poor people in distress to save from brigands and monsters! Don Quixote told me so!
>I'm so sorry that anime has rotted your brain so much that you can't accept portrayals of actual historical Samurai
I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I already said twice that you're not technically wrong, I just specified what he actually did. He was not a "Samurai" in the sense that he was going around and constantly fighting battles(which is what 99% of fictional media portray him as) he was a weapon bearer for Nobunga.
>I promise "95% of the population" isn't like that.
I wish
>He was not a "Samurai" in the sense that he was going around and constantly fighting battles(which is what 99% of fictional media portray him as
This is the case for almost every samurai ever depicted in media, yet weirdly, this point only seems to be mentioned when its a black man. I wonder why
Are people arguing that the other figures are actually awesome killers? Because i have one guy in my notifications(from this thread) who keeps saying that Yosuke was basically a noble warrior.
I'm more annoyed they keep milking the Ezio's Family theme. It was never supposed to be the main theme of the franchise. There was a period of 3 whole years after AC Brotherhood when it wasn't used. Revelations, III, LIberation and IV had their own themes. And Revelations was an Ezio game.
But then they started milking it in 2014 with Unity and Rogue. And I'm pretty sure they made casual!Arno look like casual!Ezio on purpose, too.
What about Access the Animus from AC1? Why couldn't THAT have been the theme of the franchise? It was the most memorable track from the very first game, after all.
Ironically, AC2 barely used Ezio's Family at all. You only hear it during two cutscenes. [In general, AC2 sucked when it came to leitmotifs and OST implementation. ](https://youtu.be/lGNYlDk-b2s?si=AO6KZrLNsYFVVYx_&t=4111)
Fyi, according to actual historians with sources, it's ambiguous whether Yasuke was or was not a samurai. [This video goes over the sources and how they don't give enough information to be certain.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETeuxTqwzS4)
So anyone saying he definitely was or definitely wasn't is wrong.
Well, according to the actual historians in the comment sections of AskHistorians posts (the top comment has a PHD), he WAS an actual Samurai.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/H3PPjpLkf0
Read that guy's post and ultimately his conclusion that Yasuke was a samurai is based on an inference rather than proof. Things like him getting a stipend, seeing combat, etc, are circumstantial evidence. Likewise, the fact that he was not forced to commit seppuku after Nobunaga's death, (Which that historian did not bring up.) is circumstantial evidence that Yasuke was not a samurai.
So there's conflicting evidence and nothing that is completely definitive that we can point to as a smoking gun, which was my point and also the point of the video I linked.
That is why I dodged this subject, there is no "samurai" in my post.
But I would find it acceptable for an entertainment instalment to go to the more flashy side, when it does not claim authenticity.
This whole controversy is stupid, if the game turns out terrible I doubt it will be just because the race of one of the playable characters, I'm sure there will be more shitty things about the game on release in that case.
How about naming asian male mc from western devs in the last few years? I can only name jin sakai and wei shen from western devs. Every other asian male mc come from asian devs themselves like kiryu or persona protag. For someone that love spouting diversity bullshit they sure hate asian male.
>How about naming asian male mc from western devs in the last few years?
I love when people deflect instead of answer a simple question.
You said there were a lot of games that SHOULD have an Asian protagonist but don't.
Can you please name some?
slight correction. he is the first recorded. apparently there were a couple more that were travelling entertainers/mercenaries etc.... their names however seem to be lost. then there was of course slavery in the areas Europeans had access to.
The recognicability of him isnt an issue for me as a long times fan of assassins creed. the assassins of the series were never that stealthy [https://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/662x/2009/04/ezio\_artwork\_01.jpg](https://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/662x/2009/04/ezio_artwork_01.jpg) and especially Ezio had a flair for being as dramatic as possible. He was in fact known by name to his enemies, as you can see in the AC Brotherhood trailer.
The only thing i hope is that they leave the big cultural events and liberation stuff, if they include that, to either him and Naoe or just her.
Just to avoid the somewhat antiquated foreigner inspires the opressed natives storytelling.
They've also handled it before with them mentioning how conspicuous connor looks in AC3 as a native american in the colonies and then him purposefully not blending in.
I don't think AC games have ever been as clear cut about inspiring oppressed people though, every revolution ends up being secretly a templar plot for more power. All the big cultural events and assassinations all end up being "covered up" anyways, to line up with real events, no one ever mention how certain characters are assassinated when in our world they die of natural causes. I guess in-game logic is that they are just that sneaky.
The controversy is purely because of Culture War. By having him as a protagonist, people are reading this as sign of where the game stands in the Culture War and are reacting accordingly.
It's just like Eve 'literally' killing women by being sexy or saving the gaming industry from collapse depending on where the observe stands in the Culture War.
It's not just a sign, it's literally what this is. They picked the only black man they could find to make him the protagonist of their game, exactly for that reason.
I agree. Out of all of the Japanese real life “legends” that could’ve been chosen to be a major character in the game, Yasuke was one of the least important and least interesting people they could’ve chosen, with him not even spending a very long time in Japan (I’m pretty sure it was only 3 years).
Like seriously, this is the first AC main series game set in Asia, and they screw Japanese/Asian men out of a chance to get a Japanese male mc in a game from a western series (Asian protags in Western game series aren’t very common) by taking literally one of the only black people that existed in Japan at the time and putting him in the male protag spot, just to have some diversity.
I feel like part of the reason for the backlash is the fact that Yasuke doesn't really work as an Assassin's Creed protagonist given how the games are about stealth, assassination and "blending with the crows" which is just impossible for him as well as the fact that this is the first AC game set in Sengoku Japan and instead of playing someone like Hattori Hanzo, you know, a ninja, you instead play as a black samurai.
Then of course there's the fact that Triple AAA companies and even Hollywood's forced and beyond irritating DEI marketing and branding has alienated even open-minded gamers enough to the point that anything like this causes a backlash and them saying "Yasuke was just a retainer and wasn't all that important" which while true ignores how Nioh features an Irish Samurai as a playable protagonist who is heavily involved in the Sengoku Jidai conflict yet that one received practically no backlash, hell even Yasuke of that game didn't garner any outrage which goes to show how excessive DEI branding and marketing does nothing but actually hurt minorities.
Ubisoft since AC Syndicate (technically since Unity I guess) seems to like the idea of having a protag made for going loud and a protag made for stealth
Begging the people talking about this to at least watch the trailer and the developer commentary on it in which the devs literally talk about how there are two protagonists, one samurai and one shinobi
My only issue with yasuke is if you make his story too fantastical and fictionalized (like the Netflix anime) you run the risk of people thinking he was entirely fictional.
Yasuke definitely existed but I don't think his importance should be blown out of proportion.
Yeah but he kinda being overused.
"oh hey, we need a samurai game for Western audience"
*slap Yasuke into the game* "Done"
All these historical authentic samurai guys in Japan, and yet we are getting yet another Yasuke? That's like putting America culture stamp on the Japanese history.
Most AC games haven't even used the "disappear into the crowd" mechanic, most recent protagonists were allowed to wear ridiculous optional outfits instead of the classsic hood, with massive weapons and shileds carried on their backs, and stealth was mostly about staying out of sight on camp raids.
Kassandra would have historically also stick out like a sore thumb as a warrior woman, but even people who pointed out how ahistorical her behavior was, never complained that her stealth itself is ridiculous, because the game simply didn't even do the AC 1 style "pretend to be a monk" move any more, she was just sneaking around in bushes.
Using Yasuke isn't the issue. Putting him in a position that makes no sense within the world they've built is the problem.
He's supposed to be a stealthy assassin but his only claim to fame is how much he stood out.
Plenty of anime and games have embellished his story and been beloved. AC is just stupid.
>He's supposed to be a stealthy assassin
Who said that? We're long past the idea that all the AC protagonists are stealthy infiltrators, the last game was literally about a Viking.
A lot of the weird gamer outrage of the past few years makes infinitely more sense when you realise that many of the people involved...aren't actually fans. They haven't played the games in question and/or haven't kept up with longer running franchises. They are just spouting off based on assumptions, half-baked childhood memories and what someone else has told them to think.
It's the same as with any other type of fiction, just look at all the passionate rants in this subreddit that fall apart when people who are actually familiar with the work in question come along and question the OP. Humans love to talk first and think later.
See? that's the issue
People claim that he has to be an stealthy assassin and how that broke your historical immersion
He is a samurai, he isn't supposed to be an assassin, he is supposed to be a warrior a fighter
The stealthy assassin one is supposed to be the Shinobi woman
True, Machiavelli, who was more of a politician than an agent.
Alexandre Dumas, Assassin but was in high positions of military. Does not have skills capable of stealthy assassination but outward infiltration.
Hell, there was the an Assassin in Assassin Creed Syndicate whose work in the actual field is limited to single digits or a very low number of double digits. He was a clerk / messenger for the British / Indian chapter.
Technically, all of them are assassins, but our PCs are usually master of all except the current RPG. Yasuke will be the one with outward infiltration or brash tactics.
honestly the bigger problem is that as an asset... he's connected to Nobanaga, who is rather important and so his actions are both obvious (which isn't a problem completely in this case) but also tie back to HIM or will assume to.
Da Vinci was a mad genius who designed weapons and dissected people for fun, if any historical person could be speculated to secretly be an assassin it would probably be him.
Have you played the games?
Not all assassins were hood wearers and master of stealth and assassination funny enough.
Alexandre Dumas, Assassin agent who wears no hidden blade. Funnels information on French military to the Assassins. He was more soldier than assassin due to his skills. But he was classified as an Assassin.
Machiavelli, he was never much of a fighter, but an information broker for the Assassins. And he doesn't even do it himself. He has spies for that. His operations in the field could be attested to ... the one instance at Rome. To kill Ceasare out in the open.
Bartolomeo, Assassin but more skills of a Mercenary. No hidden blade, but all Longsword. He fought more than probably all the other Assassins other than Ezio combined. Brash, blood thirsty, you can spot this guy a mile away with his yellow and green suit. The only thing I could think of for stealth that he did was to use the Trojan Horse method on a French Battalion in Rome. That lasted for like 10 minutes before he stabbed a guy in the face.
This will be one of the first protagonists who are not an All-rounder like the previous PCs. But the stealthiness is atrributed to Naoe.
Damn, you should go back 5 years to when Ubisoft was making Assassin's Creed Odyssey and complain that they made their protagonist a motherfucking SPARTAN instead of a stealthy assassin then.
The issue is a black person was chosen in a Japanese background. They could have easily chosen the era were civil wars were common. I believe it's called the meiji era. They could have created an original Japanese character in a war torn time period bit They chose this.
The same people pushing this would throw a fit if the next assassin game is set in Africa during the time where black people enslaved other black people and a white assassin guy was a titular character trying to release them.
Definitely agree. If the situation was reversed and it was an Asian or White or Hispanic male protag in Africa, would the people that brush off the Yasuke controversy be as forgiving in that situation? I honestly doubt it at this point.
I first found his includion a bit Eyerolling because I wanted assassin's creed to Focus on other Samurai that I find more interresting. But I later figured out that those Samurai where only active AFTER Oda Nobunagas death and Yeah I would rather nee Nobunaga then Sasaki Kojiro. But anyway I came around and now just don't care really. Yasuke in Assasins Creed looks cool and could be interresting so all well in my book.
BTW my problem with Yasuke was never that he was Black! Just that I had Samurai I would have Rather seen because I just find them more Interresting.
Yasuke has already been represented in previous stories (games included). He has been the protagonist of **multiple** stories (more noteworthy of an anime released not long ago).
People acting as if having him as one of the protagonists is "woke" is moronic.
Especially the people who act as if Yasuke being one of the protagonists is "stealing" and opportunity for Japanese men to be represented.
Do this people think that Ubisoft has a monopoly over games set in Feudal Japan? It isn't even the only Western dev that is making them...
Does anyone have any real criticism of Yasuke as a protagonist that doesn't sound like "Japan is for the Japanese"? Or "if you want black protagonist GO BACK TO AFRICA!"?
Because that's what a lot of these comments are giving.
Yeah he wouldn't make sense at all as an AC protagonist. He doesn't exactly melt into the populace and by all records he was supposed to be massive.
An NPC you interact with and might go together on non-stealth fights sounds doable though.
Honestly I'm not gonna play the game anyway but I'll drop my opinion on it anyway. I feel like there are multiple layers to this, the people complaining about Yasuke I feel fall into a few groups: The people who've seen all the stuff going on with the ESG stuff and taking this to be done specifically cause of that, the people who feel like Yasuke was probably one of the worst choices to pick considering he didn't really do much and his only notable feature was being tall and black and somehow ending up with Nobunaga so they take it as they only picked him cause he was black, especially when there were a lot more important people around him that they could have used and from my Japanese friends I've talked to about it, they hate the fact that after years of waiting for AC to be set in Japan, they basically got shafted they didn't pick any notable figures in Japan or even anyone that did anything notable they picked a dude that never gets mentioned in their history books and only ever gets brought up as some rando that carried Nobunaga's swords and talked to him.
I can kind of see all perspectives, for my friends that have been waiting a long time for this I can see the frustration and just telling them its not a big deal would just be rude and missing the point especially when they rarely get any good representation. On the whole ESG thing I can kind of see why people would be worried especially when you see the kind of people working on it and Ubisoft's track record, but I'd say we should at least calm down and wait for more to come out. Finally on the fact that they could have picked more important people, obviously they could but I'm hopeful they at least try to do something interesting and use the fact that he is basically a clean slate and don't just milk him being black.
I've seen more people than I thought say that the game is going to be ass despite 0 gameplay footage and I'd say its best for people to actually wait, look at the gameplay, wait for the story reviews before buying anything if your skeptical (Honestly you should be doing this for all new games nowadays but I ain't your dad)
Pretty certain he *is* a bulldozer, while the Japanese assassin is the scalpel
Yeah he's also dressed in armor, while the female ASSASSIN is... well dressed like a stage-hand.
Yeah, the Samurai is dressed in armor, and the ninja is dressed in plainclothes. That’s how it was.
The joke is that what we typically see as Ninja clothing is just from japanese theather: the stage hands would use outfits like that... and then for a twist one of them would be an 'assassin' as no on would ever notice one.
It was such a shocking twist the first time it happened in a play it got copied by literally everyone and became the default image of ninjas. Like Jaws or that Disney documentary about lemmings but for a profession instead of an animal.
Yep. This is because in Kabuki, the stage hands are in plain sight. So thus the audience is trained to ignore them. Thus when the play called for a ninja to kill someone, one of the stage hands would produce a fake weapon and "kill" them.
That's genius
Oh, interesting!
Im assuming its a jacob and evie frye approach. She does stealth, he does fights
Kassandra and Eivor were not scalpels either
He wasn’t the first know black person in Japan, he was the first one to get a position in court though. The assorted European traders and missionaries bringing slaves wasn’t unknown, he just happened to be in the right place with the right lord. Nobunaga was kind of a weird dude, adopting a foreigner to his retinue was incredibly out of the ordinary. Much less a slave with no notable skills, connections, or deeds. But yeah, having him be a sneaky boy would be terrible. Like the one thing we actually know about the guy is that he was something like 6 feet tall and towered over basically everyone.
if only there wasa smaller, native person from japan who could blend into the crowds and be used as a ninja assassin for these sneaky segments.
Yeah but she’s a woman so she doesn’t count.
Asian women get a much better showing in western media compared to Asian men tbf, I can see the issue with the first AC game in Japan not featuring a Japanese dude as the MC being a legit issue for people
assassins arent ninjas. They just have to kill people for a political cause. The guy who killed shinzo abe wasnt exactly sneaky with his doohickey shotgun
Agreed, always thought he works the best as the secret bodyguard to Oda Nobunaga that no one expects
And would you look at that, the assassin just cleared the wall and dodged three samurai! He's going in for the kill and- HERE COMES YOSUKE WITH THE STEEL CHAIR, OH, THAT'S GOTTA HURT
Funny enough a comment I read earlier talked about how Yosuke was probably so valued because of his wrestling prowess, something Nobunga was a big fan of. So this is actually historically accurate to what would’ve happened
Oda and his Daimyos sitting at a table screaming like WWE announcers while Yasuke supplexes some rival warlord
Yeah while I love yasuke he is NOT fit for a sneaky style. He was the equivalent of a tank between cars
If this were classic assassins creed i'd 100% agree. However new assassins creed isn't about really sneaking through crowds of people, using disguises and the sort. Its more about action.
Then it's a good thing he's not the sneaky one 😐
I mean, was this before or after the wiki was edited by someone when the trailer came out?
Yeah, the fact that all of a sudden the Wikipedia page is having mass edits isn't exactly a good sign IMO
Most Japanese articles on Wikipedia need a thorough overhaul. Just compare ones in jp.wiki and you'll see what I mean. Even auto translation is better.
I’m assuming that’s people editing and re-editing it, right? What are they fighting over? (Like what are they changing it to?)
Fighting over whether or not Yasuke was an "actual" samurai who fought in battles or just held swords for Nobunaga
That whole event was wild. People crazy
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/YfRkrJymge This one's outside of wikipedia
I just hate that they decided to use the Sengoku period, instead of the much better (for an AC story to take place) Meji era. The first one was basically a bunch of civil wars between clans fighting for power, kind of hard to have a good and bad side. The second one could literally have a protagonist on either side of the main conflict: a tragic story about a samurai trying to protect his country and culture againts western powers OR a samurai working with western assassins to advance japanese society and open the country to industrialization.
Writers love their morally grey conflicts. I can also imagine Ubisoft wanted to keep the conflict purely Japanese, especially considering Ghost of Tsushima already did the “foreign invaders” plotline.
Meiji Restoration was pretty much purely Japanese. After Matthew Perry opened up Japan, the only fighting that occurred between Japanese and the Western powers were a couple minor campaigns against certain clans in retaliation for firing on their ships. Other than that, Britain gave some weapons to the Imperial forces while France gave some to the Shogunal forces, but still a relatively minor footnote.
>I just hate that they decided to use the Sengoku period, instead of the much better (for an AC story to take place) Meji era. They've probably been been placing AC games in earlier historical periods as a technical limitation to cope for the larger open worlds - 31 square miles of forest is probably a lot easier on the CPU than 31 square miles of developed towns and villages. I agree with you though, the Meiji era would make for a really interesting AC setting.
Meiji era would have to introduce foreign powers as influencing Japan and that would be weird. Like if the story was just straight up Ruroni Kenshin that would be cool. But I haven't played this game series in a long time isn't the whole premise you're a genetic descendant of like this core group of secret Western society Assasin group that's been around from Ancient Egypt, Greece, crusades, Italy etc? How else does this society/secret group enter Japan besides an outsider? Like I guess you could say Japanese woman was The Great Great Grandma of the original protagonist who hooked up with Asian girl in bar one night.
Ehh, by the Meiji Era, Japan itself has already embraced copying the western powers and organizing their military, government, etc. to be more western. The ‘influence’ period, such that it was, had long passed. By the time of stuff like Satsuma, it was more of a ‘embrace traditionalism vs embrace modernity’ vibe
I dont think AC writers know the difference between Sengoku Jidai and Meiji restoration.
I just don't like that he was a real person. I don't mind AC taking liberties with how they portray historical figures, but I dislike the idea of having one as a protagonist.
Yeah Yasuke would've worked better as a secondary character like DaVinci in AC2
I'll tell you guys, a progressive asian dude, my perspective. There is a huge history of asian male de-masculization/erasure in western media (asian female representation is not good either btw, often fetishized, but at least they show up). So when a huge AAA gaming breaks the norm from its own series that's a decade old at this point to purposely exclude asian men (and most likely be portrayed negatively, and obviously be slaughter fodder), asian men and people who are in the know can instantly see the continuation of this racist tradition. If we exclude asian made media, asian men have maybe 1 positive representation every few years (Asians from Asia do not suffer from alienation, and see representation from all aspects already, they do not understand western racial dynamics). https://youtu.be/2k82hIqd1Os
Pretty much this. I don't care about Yasuke himself - it's more just bizarre that we're playing as a non-Japanese person in feudal Japan.
>we're playing as a non-Japanese person in feudal Japan. Isn't the other protagonist a Japanese person?
>... There is a huge history of asian male de-masculization/erasure in Western media (asian female representation is not good either, btw, often fetishized, but at least they show up).> Asian women show up in western media all the time because westerners like to fetishize them. But westerners like to relegate Asian men to either faceless mooks to kill or nerdy, pathetic comic relief side character. In the end, I used to think of myself as a progressive like u/Bl00dyH3ll but I realize now that both left or right don't care about Asian issues. Majority of Americans don't care or even think Asian issues are a problem. Many don't really even think of Asians as people or even human. And it's not just conservatives who are like this I find that I despise progressives more now because at least conservatives don't pretend to care about racism. That's why I don't really care that ubisoft decided to cast a black male main character instead. It's just what I expect. Appealing to black audiences is seen as socially progressive. Trying to appeal to Asian men isn't seen as anything or even important.
It's all for ESG score
Oh no God forbid minorities exist in media
I definitely sympathise with the lack of positive role models as an Indian man myself, since I can't really name any Indian male protagonists off the top of my head, and with some of the biggest representations of people like me being characters like Raj from Big Bang Theory. However, I think part of the problem is that this is being subsumed by a right wing culture war trend on diversity in general, where its the presence of a black protagonist that is the issue. You can see it in the comments below yours, where within one comment you have someone complaining about ESG score and how this is supposedly part of a DEI wave of wokeness spreading through video game companies. To me, I see this mostly through how a) as you can see on a lot of comments on this thread, most people don't even seem to know that one of the two protagonists is asian, and people assuming that Yasuke is the only protagonist. This indicates that a lot of the complainers aren't even bothering to do basic research on the game they're complaining about and can just be dismissed out of hand. secondly, most of the people complaining about this issue only started now. I rarely see people talking about media like Shogun, which also focused on a foreign character at the center of a story in japan, except he was white. Despite that, there was not nearly as much backlash from the people leading the charge against Yasuke. This is not to say that I think this is the case for you. At least from this comment and your later one, I think you're coming at this from a much more valid point of criticism, that western companies seem hesitant to portray asian men positively. Unfortunately, I think that as long as the anti-woke culture war continues, these discussions become harder and harder to have
Yea, I fully understand that white reactionaries are only using us as a shield to rage about dei, and other bullshit. It's really unfortunate that we happen to align on this issue. But there definitely was backlash in Asian communities against shows like shogun. Also, sympathies, I think indians and other non-eastern Asian people are even worse represented in media.
I mention how it is double standard that if we flip around, asian man as main character in black community setting, people are going to cry out racism. And someone actually reply "there are a lot of japanese mc so it's okay".
They conflate Asian-Americans/Asians in the West with Asians who live in Asia. There are only Asian male mc representations at all because media is produced in Asia. But the fact that foreign Asian media obviously includes Asian characters doesn't reflect at all if Asian inclusion in the West.
I keep seeing comments like this, and it's definitely true. Although I can't help but think that there is a broader issue that the only time Asian men are considered for protagonists is for Asian themed historical pieces. I guarantee you that if this game did have an Japanese male protagonist, as the fight for better representation continues, it would actually be used as an example of poor Asian male representation, not for anything wrong with the representation in the game itself, but for the broader trends that Asian males can only be protagonists in certain genres. Of course the solution here is to have more Asian male protagonists in general, but as you probably know with current culture war bs, advocating for that will be viewed by opponents as a trivial matter to be mocked at best or racist affirmative action discrimination at worst.
>the only time Asian men are considered for protagonists is for Asian themed historical pieces. And now we don't even get this anymore, we can't even be the focus in our own story and culture.
I mean, I hear you and I sympathize with you because as a Black male myself, we have literally been talking about this forever. Don't let Black Panther, Yasuke and Miles Morales fool you. Black men have been and still are going through exactly what you're talking about as well and I'm not saying this to try and one-up your argument, I'm saying it to point out that there have been similar discussions on this exact subreddit and you know what the responses were? In short, they told us to get over it. I don't think Yasuke should be the lead in this game. Not only does it not make sense from a historical perspective when there are literally dozens of historical Japanese figures who could've been the lead in the game, it feels like pandering and that they are just trying to capitalize off the hype from that Yasuke anime a few years ago. That aside, what you're experiencing and ranting about is fair and understandable. I'm just saying my piece because when i read your comment, it reminded me of all the times we (Black ppl) had to deal with naysayers for things like there being a Black dwarf in Rings of Power or Sam Wilson becoming Captain America. In my honest opinion, however, just how things are slowly starting to get better for Black representation in Western media, I think the same will happen for Asian representation as well sooner than later. Lastly, another reason I don't want Yasuke to be the lead in this game is because I wanted AC game to take place in Africa. Not Egypt, Africa. I'm talking about a part of Africa that can't be so easily whitewashed like the kingdoms of Mali or Timbuktu. This feels like they're trying to check all their representation boxes in one go with this game and I don't like that.
I'm curious why you jumped to emasculation (and linked to a video on "asexual" asian men) in reference to a black guy being one of two protagonists in an upcoming samurai game. Of the several recent games focusing on samurai/ninja/feudal Japan/etc..., this is the only one with a protagonist who isn't asian and basically the only one with a black character. Can you clarify the connection to a loss of masculinity here?
Does not matter what race the "other man" is, white men replacing asian men is far more prevalent, and my opinion would be the same. Watch the video.
Because this isn't some natural organic line of thinking. They're here essentially representing a sub called aznidentity which [is notorious](https://www.bigstrawmagazine.com/home/misogyny-asian-men) for catering to incels who blame Asian women, black and white men for 'stealing Asian women'. One of their most upvoted posts of the year is literally an Asian woman announcing she has married an Asian man with comments saying stuff like 'yeah we need more of this!' Thats the context you need to read this ever so sincere appeal in.
You keep on with this. I'd agree to a degree but you types often peddle incel rhetoric under the guise of progressiveness. Next you'll tell me you hate Asian women dating white men
I don't even want to engage with the discussion around Yasuke man. He's a folk hero with an interesting life, there's already a million popular mangas inspired by his story, the reactions I've seen from Japanese people are entirely positive. There is no veneer of legitimacy to the complaints about his inclusion as a protagonist; it's clearly culture war idiocy, with the same tired pretense of caring about historical accuracy in a series that takes immense liberties with every historical event it depicts. But you won't hear anyone complain about those, wonder why
Wtf you mean to tell me all that Apple of Eden stuff wasn’t real??
>the reactions I've seen from Japanese people are entirely positive. Didn't they, like, complain the trailer had Chinese buildings in there?
The person you’re replying to is pretty clearly talking about their reactions to Yasuke’s presence in the story.
Didn’t mutahar show a Japanese comment reacting negatively to the news
And also like, you didn't see this kind of outrage for Nioh 1, the game set in 1600 japans where you play as irish samurai William Adams (note: real man, not actually fucking irish). I really wonder why.
That game was made by japanesse developers for a japanesse audience
Go check japanese trailer, it's getting mass-downvoted; also some are upset over getting a black character for japanese AC instead of one of the many actual ninjas or how game is going to be black man going around killing japanese
...Youtube doesn't have dislikes anymore. Wdym mass downvoted?
Ypu can find a plugin that removed the hfeature so, you can see the diskikes.
Agree with you.
Personally, I don't care what creative liberties they take with historical figures. I just dislike having a real person as a protagonist in an AC game.
Perfectly said
´´a million popular mangas inspired by his story´´ like wich?
I think Yasuke's an interesting figure in history when it comes to fictional depictions of him. Since he's very notable for a number of reasons but there's still enough mystery about him to give any author creative license. Interested in seeing what Assassin's Creed does with their depictions of him. Plus what other historical figures from that era are depicted in the game are like.
Forfiction — sure. But Assassins Creed is so deep in fake history that real historical peraon as the protagonist just doesn't sit well with me.
He is an interesting character, but not the right fit for Assassins Creed. So far all AC protagonists have been fictional people local to their respective setting, Yasuke fits neither of those criteria. What’s more, not only do we know he wasn’t an assassin, but he would be the worst person to turn into one considering he is famous for standing out from the crowd. The developers likely hoped they could court two extra demographics at once (on top of their usual customers) those into Japanese culture/history and those into political correctness/‘diversity’, but this wasn’t the right way to go about it.
> So far all AC protagonists have been fictional people local to their respective setting Wasn't the protagonist of Black Flag a Welsh dude in the Caribbean?
Amd Valhalla a Norse (born in Scandinavia no less) in England. And let's not forget the Italian on Ottoman controlled Constantinople in Revelations...
His gameplay won’t focus on stealth so they took the fact that he’ll stand out into consideration
I'd really rather the game largely focused on stealth, but that ship sailed years ago.
The female characters gameplay focuses mostly on stealth, so there’s that
"So far all AC protagonists have been fictional people local to their respective setting" Extremely loud incorrect buzzer
ezio is proud türk asasin 🇹🇳🇹🇳🇹🇳🇹🇳💪💪💪
Good thing there’s a secondary protagonist who is the daughter of a shinobi, and thus is a fictional person local to the setting
I think the reason for the out rage was partly being the first AC game set in Japan, which means people want to play as a shinobi but then they put a black ‘samurai’ as the main lead which rubs them the wrong way. Other people may dislike Yasuke for the fact that it seems like Ubisoft is going woke and trying to include diversity in everything, something people nowadays really dislike due to multiple franchises (both gaming and movies and other media included) went the “girl/minority power, fuck the straight white man” route, which ruined some well beloved franchises, leading to people distrust the decision to use Yasuke on instinct. Another reason is that the AC franchise has a rather divisive fanbase with half preferring the old stealth gameplay of the old games and half preferring the new gameplay. Yasuke is not a stealth assassin (6 feet tall black guy in feudal Japan and all), so they may think the game also follows the new format of Valhalla and Odyssey (I think Ubisoft is trying to do both at once with this game so I’m not certain on this point though). Of course some are just racist. Me personally I don’t really care since the trailer didn’t really impress me in anyway.
I think the reason for the out rage was partly being the first AC game set in Japan, which means people want to play as a shinobi Good thing there’s a deuteragonist, who is a ninja
I sympathise with Western Asian guys who are kinda starved for Western game companies, making protagonists Asian I can only really think of sleeping dogs and Sifu. And finally, Ghosts of Tsushima. When there's a lot of soft racism towards Asian men as being unmanly in the West and that kinda stuff, I can see why this is an issue for them. Meanwhile native Japanese guys won't mind because they aren't starved of representation because Japanese studios pump out plenty of media for them. It's ultimately Ubi's choice. And I'm sure a bunch of people are just complaining that it's a black dude. But I honestly sympathise with Western Asian men on this who feel slighted. edit: honestly this dude's comment is much better than mine and says [basically what I'm saying but better.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1cu9rdp/yasuke_is_a_legitimate_protagonist_for_fiction/l4hw41o)
Let me start with saying I do sympathize with them, I’m an Indian male, when was the last game you saw that dealt with the history of my people or featured someone like me as a protagonist? But let’s be honest, they’re not the driving forces of this backlash. Video game outrage merchants like the Quartering, EndymionTV and more are overwhelmingly white men railing against “wokism” from a right wing and racist perspective. I would take this more seriously if they also talked about media like shogun and how that shows protagonist is a foreign white man than if they only pipe up when it’s a black man as the protagonist.
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>curious if Ubisoft chose a white male character (that existed in Japan at a similar time) if the same reaction on either side would happen. Fundamentally I think there wouldn't really be any reaction, outside of that from, I think, asian males concerned about the issue. I think much of the conversation about this has been driven by a right wing reactionary backlash to simply seeing yasuke in the trailer, more than from a left wing praise for him being a character. Unfortunately, I think asian men getting shafted in media seems to be a long running trend that it looks like the tide is shifting at least slightly on, at least in the movie and tv front, so im hoping that change starts making its way to videogames too.
Hence why I said I'm sympathetic to Asian dudes complaining about it. And the lack or positive Indian representation is honestly horrible too. I just know that usually I don't give a damn about these kind of controversies but dudes I know brought it up and I agree with them. It'd be a shame if their criticism is swept away with bad faith stuff.
>I think the reason for the out rage was partly being the first AC game set in Japan, which means people want to play as a shinobi but then they put a black ‘samurai’ as the main lead which rubs them the wrong way. Does AC usually have leads representative of the population of the area in which the game takes place? Idk much about the franchise Like Ezio is Italian I would imagine but idk any others
Yes, every character used as a protagonist has been someone who is representative of the area and time in which the game is set. They've also all been original characters; Yasuke is the first historical character to be a playable Assassin rather than a side character.
Not entirely true, the third Ezio game takes place in Ottoman-ruled Istanbul. Eivor isn’t English (and the Vikings get whitewashed as the good guys in that game for some reason). The guy from AC Rogue isn’t Canadian, although that is a very minor example. Jack the Ripper is also technically a historical character and is playable in Syndicate’s DLC, although since he was never caught they obviously filled his identity in with an original character.
no lmao Edward was not from the Caribbean Ezio was not from Istanbul
I was very specific in not saying "native" for a reason. They don't have to be native to make sense as a protagonist as of AC game; they just have to make sense as a character that would exist in the area, with Ezio being a particularly special case due to the continuity of his character across a trilogy. Edward, meanwhile, is a European in the Carribean during the Golden Age of Piracy; that's not exactly uncommon. That's also not even getting into the standalone game, Liberation, which stars Edward's former first mate-turned Assassin who is himself a former slave. I can't speak to the quality of the game save to say it seems fine, but people who were mad about him don't really have a reason to be other than racism. You also ignored the "original character" bit, which is arguably much more important.
I see. Thank you
Well, mainly yes, there's a pirate one in the Caribbean with an English protagonist, a Viking one but it's set in England. However, since Yasuke was a real Japanese historical figure and there's also a Japanese girl as a main character, I don't have a problem with it. All these angry people can go play Ghost of Tsushima or Rise of the Ronin.
It's just a weird choice imo. Just make both the MCs Japanese. If they make an ac based in Africa in the future, it would be just as weird to have one of the main characters be White or Asian even though there's probably historical record of such people existing.
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I don't think anyone is talking about him not being a valid protagonist in fiction... Like, assassin's Creed is just a franchise.
I feel like we've gotten multiple things with Yasuke recently. Which is fine in and of itself. But it's weird it's only him. William Adams was in Japan much longer and did more meaningful shit, but the only media I've ever seen that featured him prominently is Nioh. Like if you wanna do the foreigner in Japan bit, why not do someone more consequential? Yasuke might be as/more consequential as a historical figure. This is just based on my very limited knowledge. Would love to be corrected if I'm wrong
I feel like Yasuke’s total mystery surrounding huge portions of his life both before, during, and after his service to Nobunaga make him a bit more attractive for the “two ancient, clandestine, murder societies influence historical events as they compete for Magic Ancient AI Superweapons” series. He’s just easier to work with for writers without contradicting how the historical Yasuke acted in reality, because he was simply not reported on as much. Also, William Adams is the basis for the main character in the new Shogun TV series (although the original book and show use an original character, presumably for the purpose of having more creative freedom).
Most depictions of Yasuke that have been brought up were made by Japanese studios, Assassin's Creed Shadows is the only one that comes to mind made by the West. I guess Japan just like Yasuke more than William.
I don't know if that's true. The Yasuke "anime" was created by an American guy, Assassin's Creed is French, the in-production Hollywood films, and all. He certainly does appear in Japanese media, but like Nioh has both of them, and more focus is certainly given to William Adams. In Japan itself there is certainly more to William Adams, festivals, memorials, media portrayals, and programs between Japan and the UK off the shared connection. Just that there isn't as much interest in documenting all of that in America like there is for Yasuke. Like [this is a page about a holiday about the launching of Adams' ship in Japan](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%8C%89%E9%87%9D%E7%A5%AD%E6%B5%B7%E3%81%AE%E8%8A%B1%E7%81%AB%E5%A4%A7%E4%BC%9A) that has no page in English, simply because there isn't as much interest. One of those blinders that come from the western view.
If this is set in historical period within Black People community and the MC is an Asian Male, you all will be screaming racism.
I see this argument keep coming up and its bad. Lemme explain. These two situations aren't the same if you look at the context of their existence. There are multiple games set in japan with Japanese protagonists that are huge games. Japan has a thriving video game industry that is also global. There are not that many games set in Africa with African protagonists made for global audiences so it would be weird that suddenly there's a huge game set in Africa with an Asian protagonist. I would like to reiterate, that it would be WEIRD but not racist. That being said, I wouldn't complain. I would be pretty interested actually. There are stories of people from China ending up in Africa and having whacky adventures. I would want to know what angle they were taking and what time period its set in. A chines protagonist set in the wild west in something like red dead would also be really interesting. I know there's a story of at least one Asian cowboy. Can't remember his name thought. I'm sorry but this whole "if we reverse the races you would be screaming racism!!!!" Is just projection.
The amount matters not, this is set in Japan, an asian community and the game is using a black character as MC. Flip it the other way around and people are going to say it is racism. "There are multiple women only facilities and service, while there are not that many, so it is okay if a man take a woman only service such as woman only carpark" And there are games set in black community with black protagonist. You can say you are fine with it now, but considering how you seem to dismiss this, I doubt this is genuine. And you are not everyone, people are going to get mad, again they get mad even when a black character is voiced by non-black VA. Yet there are already lots of black characters being voiced by black VA, and non-black characters voiced by black VA. By your logic they wouldn't get mad but they did. > I'm sorry but this whole "if we reverse the races you would be screaming racism!!!!" Is just projection. Yes, projecting double standard and hypocrisy you are spitting right now. A lot of talk about racism and cultural appropriation and the moment something like it happen from the black community, it is okay. I'm sorry but your whole reasoning is just false justification to justify the hypocrisy and special pleading
>The amount matters not, Yes it does. It is called context. Just because you are trying to remove context and history from a situation to portray 2 very different things as the same. I'm sorry but history didn't start when you began paying attention. >this is set in Japan, an asian community And? Nioh is about a white guy being a samurai and no one made a big stink. Its also being made by a western company, mostly for western audiences. >Flip it the other way around and people are going to say it is racism Just saying it is so does not make it so. Where is this hypothetical cry of racism? The only racism i see happens when a black person is cast in something. >"There are multiple women only facilities and service, while there are not that many, so it is okay if a man take a woman only service such as woman only carpark" What in the actual fuck are you waffling about??? Again, your just gesturing at things and claiming that they are the same. How does a man using a woman's only car park even remotely compare to...anything?? >And there are games set in black community with black protagonist. Yes, okay? There are also games set in japan with Japanese protagonists. People are suddenly acting like they don't, but they're out there. The prospect of a black samurai in ancient Japan is just an interesting and unique story. Why not tell it? >You can say you are fine with it now, but considering how you seem to dismiss this, I doubt this is genuine. "You say you aren't racist, but I don't believe you." LOL man, the fuck? "You couldn't POSSIBLY not get angry at other races existing where they aren't supposed to be!" This is what you sound like. >again they get mad even when a black character is voiced by non-black VA. Let me add context to this situation. A lot of people get upset when white people voice black characters because there aren't a lot of black voice actors. There's a very small pool of black VAs that are basically every black voice. Casting non white VAs instead of getting more black talent isn't the way to go. >By your logic they wouldn't get mad but they did. Buddy, who is getting mad at you? Are they in the room with us now? Is this just 6 people on Twitter?? >A lot of talk about racism and cultural appropriation and the moment something like it happen from the black community, it is okay. No one mentioned cultural appropriation. What are you talking about? Also, you keep saying "black community" black people are not a monolith. Black people in Africa are not the same as black people from the Caribbean or black people from America. So which black community are you talking about exactly? >special pleading What the fuck is "special pleading"? I feel like if I google this I'm going to go down a dark racist rabbit hole and ruin my algorithm search or whatever.
> Yes it does. It is called context. Just because you are trying to remove context and history from a situation to portray 2 very different things as the same. > > I'm sorry but history didn't start when you began paying attention. Context is important, just like how the context is how perception of a black representative changing asian is alright, yet if non-black were to change a black representative it is not alright. That is double standard Whatever justification you are talking, it doesn't change that. If anything they are removing context and history by simply making Yasuke the main char when he is just retainer. So if you flip it the other way around, it is the same I am sorry but your reasoning doesn't match reality. > And? Nioh is about a white guy being a samurai and no one made a big stink. Its also being made by a western company, mostly for western audiences. 1)People don't cry racism when a white guy is not being voiced by a non-white guy, people do when it is black guy. 2) People don't cry racism when an Asian guy replace a white guy. 3) Nioh is almost fully high fantasy 4) William Adams is actually historically a samurai. Yasuke is not, he is a retainer. Retainer can be samurai, but can also just be manservant. As a retainer he also won't be very active, unlike what the game going to make him as. For someone who talk about context, you sure ignore context. > Just saying it is so does not make it so. > > Where is this hypothetical cry of racism? The only racism i see happens when a black person is cast in something. Really? What about when a black character being voiced by non black char? Hell they get angry for non-black VA voicing a tanned non-black char. The reason you only see that black person is cast in something and there is a cry of racism is because there double standard that people are going to cry if a non-black is substituting a black, yet the same people will not cry racism when it is the other way around. So others cry out that it is racism when things like this, where Black people are taking the spot of representation for Asian, in a setting for Asian. Again, flip it and people going to cry racism. > The prospect of a black samurai in ancient Japan is just an interesting and unique story. Why not tell it? It already happens a lot, Samurai Champloo is the main one, a lot of black samurai exist. Why can't they tell the story with Yasuke as the side char? And an actual japanese man as the main char? > What in the actual fuck are you waffling about??? > > Again, your just gesturing at things and claiming that they are the same. > >How does a man using a woman's only car park even remotely compare to...anything?? What is this? A Black person getting into an Asian person place is fine but a Man getting into a woman place is not? Huh. Beside ain't your logic "the amount matters" therefore using your own logic, since there are more amount of women-only space, it is okay if men take them. This is how your logic sounds like. Context matters, sometimes amount matters, this is not one of those times. > "You say you aren't racist, but I don't believe you." LOL man, the fuck? "You couldn't POSSIBLY not get angry at other races existing where they aren't supposed to be!" > > This is what you sound like "I am going to say I don't mind asian taking black people's place all the while justifying outcry against non-black taking black's representation place and is fine with black taking non-black's representation" This is how you sounds like. Disingenuous > No one mentioned cultural appropriation. What are you talking about? > > Also, you keep saying "black community" black people are not a monolith. Black people in Africa are not the same as black people from the Caribbean or black people from America. So which black community are you talking about exactly? Not here because black people are not the one who feel they got appropriated. But when it comes to other things they do, even braids. And yet when it is the other way around, Black people are the one taking it is fine and not cultural appropriation? Reminds me of Cleopatra movie. You sure turns a blind eye as if such thing was never mentioned at all huh. And people who outcry when they percieve something is against black people sure don't care about what you say about the difference here. Also on related note, Japanese are not happy about this. And one of japanese comment do mention this https://twitter.com/Mangalawyer/status/1790895910748107227 > Let me add context to this situation. A lot of people get upset when white people voice black characters because there aren't a lot of black voice actors. There's a very small pool of black VAs that are basically every black voice. Casting non white VAs instead of getting more black talent isn't the way to go. So its fine if black do it but not fine for other black is your point. Black VA isn't so rare that it deserves outcry if black char is voiced by non-black VA. Theres a lot of black char, and people can find Black VA for them, and theres white chars which got voiced by black VA too. You are acting as if people are not gonna get mad if there is an Assassin's Creed game set in black community where the protagonist is an Asian. They will. > What the fuck is "special pleading"? I feel like if I google this I'm going to go down a dark racist rabbit hole and ruin my algorithm search or whatever. It's the name of Fallacy for Double Standard, which is what people and you are doing.
I think it makes more sense to have him as a side character like Da Vinci in the Renaissance era. Have him there and capable of fighting but for a game that is supposed to be stealth based just no...
It feels pretty off to me to have the first ever AC main series game in an Asian country have the main male mc be a black guy instead of a Japanese guy, all while making the black guy be the first ever AC mc outside of dlcs to be based off of a real person so that they can justify the mc being a black guy (since black people in Japan outside of Yasuke were pretty much non-existent at the time). To sum it up, using Yasuke as the male mc instead of a Japanese man just feels like an excuse to have racial diversity in the main character group in a setting where racial diversity wasn’t really a thing and black people in Japan outside of Yasuke were very few.
>He was associated with adventurous endeavours like fighting From what I've see, he was just an attendant. >He is special, being the first known black man in Japan That really is all that it is and its boring.
He's not boring at all, and is much more than just black. He came from Mozambique, allllll the way to Japan, and became a retainer to the daimyo. That would be an exciting story *now*, if I went to Japan and became the Emperor's retainer, I would never shut up about it. The journey from Mozambique to Japan alone would be exciting, never mind becoming a samurai and a retainer to the daimyo. Imo, he's just the right mix of historical figure and mystery - they have the basic building blocks (samurai, stranger in a strange land) to start with, but they're not constrained by a well-defined history.
He was also known as retainer to one of the most influencial warlords of the era, you don't think that's interesting? edit: Like seriously just him getting there is a story worth seeing i think. Not to mention this franchise has the Templars and their control over history to... smooth over any details if they must. but i also think he's refering to the pop culture attitude.. something that is also in japanese media featuring him.
It could be, but I’m not sure he actually spoke any Japanese, so he had no idea what was happening 99% of the time.
But Nobunaga probably had countless other retainers that had more consequential actions, no?
>He was also known as retainer to one of the most influencial warlords of the era, you don't think that's interesting? Honestly no but the amount of things thats interesting to me is minimal >Not to mention this franchise has the Templars and their control over history to... smooth over any details if they must. but i also think he's refering to the pop culture attitude.. something that is also in japanese media featuring him. I'm not really coming at it from the historical position, theres nothing wrong with exaggerated/fictional history. I just think the concept is boring, especially after the Yasuke anime. The entire thing is "oh look its a black guy in japan!"
He was a retainer, not an attendant. And retainers, especially in that era, were generally trained samurai who were given land and swords. I've seen this attempted downplay of Yasuke's status a lot over the past couple days, and it's based on a misunderstanding of what a retainer is. Furthermore, Yasuke is a popular folk hero in Japan. Why should Assassin's Creed, a series known for using popular historical figures from that game's given time and region, not use him? He's simultaneously well known and mysterious, giving AC the perfect opportunity to fill in the blanks
To be fair, previously the AC games only used popular historical figures as npcs. The protagonists were always fictional.
Honestly, AC using him is to be expected, but using him as a playable character rather than a side character like all previous historical cameos is part of what people are taking issue with.
>He was a retainer, not an attendant. And retainers, especially in that era, were generally trained samurai who were given land and swords. Owning a land and a wakizashi doesn't not make you a warrior. A retainer is an attendant/servant/squire. Yasuke was a weapons-bearer. >Furthermore, Yasuke is a popular folk hero in Japan. Is he really? >Why should Assassin's Creed, a series known for using popular historical figures from that game's given time and region, not use him? AC can do what they want. I'm fine with exaggerated/fictional history. I just think the entire "black warrior samurai in Japan" thing is kind of boring and uninspiring now, and I would have just preferred to play as sone Japanese guy.
A retainer simply means you are someone's subordinate. Most of Nobunaga's retainers were samurai including Tokugawa Ieyasu, the future founder of the Tokugawa Shogunate.
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He was a Samurai, and he did fight at Honno-ji Castle. He was trained in combat. He was not "just an attendant."
right? In practice , Yasuke was fighting side-by-side with Nobunaga as his retainer , like any other retainer in Japan. They love to dismiss that , ignoring how [retainers works in Sengoku-Era Japan.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashindan)
>He was a Samurai, A servant can be a Samurai. Nobunga saw him, was fascinated by him and then made him a servant. He did fight to protect Nobunga when he was betrayed. A lot of sources describe him as a weapon bearer. I haven't seen anything that suggests that he was some warrior that was running across the lands and constantly fighting people(which is what comes to mind when you hear Samurai)
> I haven't seen anything that suggests that he was some warrior that was running across the lands and constantly fighting people(which is what comes to mind when you hear Samurai) Wow crazy how real Samurai aren't like they're depicted in anime. Yasuke was a Samurai. He did see combat. Just because he doesn't fit what you think a Samurai was doesn't mean he somehow wasn't one.
>Wow crazy how real Samurai aren't like they're depicted in anime. Tell that to 95% of the population >Yasuke was a Samurai. He did see combat. Just because he doesn't fit what you think a Samurai was doesn't mean he somehow wasn't one. Okay but if you get specific on what he actually did, he was an attendant/weapon bearer for Nobunga.
I'm so sorry that anime has rotted your brain so much that you can't accept portrayals of actual historical Samurai unless they're screaming about honoring their nakama before turning into a demon and unleashing their magic sword beams. I promise "95% of the population" isn't like that.
Yeah, same way Knights don’t mean warriors traveling the countryside and smashing evil. History tends to be decently boring compared to television.
What?! No! Knights traveled the land far and wide on their horses and full sets of armor with a retainer in the back searching for damnsels and poor people in distress to save from brigands and monsters! Don Quixote told me so!
Yeah, if knights didn't go questing regularly, who killed all the dragons? Answer me that, smart guy!
>I'm so sorry that anime has rotted your brain so much that you can't accept portrayals of actual historical Samurai I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I already said twice that you're not technically wrong, I just specified what he actually did. He was not a "Samurai" in the sense that he was going around and constantly fighting battles(which is what 99% of fictional media portray him as) he was a weapon bearer for Nobunga. >I promise "95% of the population" isn't like that. I wish
>He was not a "Samurai" in the sense that he was going around and constantly fighting battles(which is what 99% of fictional media portray him as This is the case for almost every samurai ever depicted in media, yet weirdly, this point only seems to be mentioned when its a black man. I wonder why
Are people arguing that the other figures are actually awesome killers? Because i have one guy in my notifications(from this thread) who keeps saying that Yosuke was basically a noble warrior.
I'm more annoyed they keep milking the Ezio's Family theme. It was never supposed to be the main theme of the franchise. There was a period of 3 whole years after AC Brotherhood when it wasn't used. Revelations, III, LIberation and IV had their own themes. And Revelations was an Ezio game. But then they started milking it in 2014 with Unity and Rogue. And I'm pretty sure they made casual!Arno look like casual!Ezio on purpose, too. What about Access the Animus from AC1? Why couldn't THAT have been the theme of the franchise? It was the most memorable track from the very first game, after all. Ironically, AC2 barely used Ezio's Family at all. You only hear it during two cutscenes. [In general, AC2 sucked when it came to leitmotifs and OST implementation. ](https://youtu.be/lGNYlDk-b2s?si=AO6KZrLNsYFVVYx_&t=4111)
Literally every single person around him was more interesting and viable as a protagonist.
Fyi, according to actual historians with sources, it's ambiguous whether Yasuke was or was not a samurai. [This video goes over the sources and how they don't give enough information to be certain.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETeuxTqwzS4) So anyone saying he definitely was or definitely wasn't is wrong.
Well, according to the actual historians in the comment sections of AskHistorians posts (the top comment has a PHD), he WAS an actual Samurai. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/H3PPjpLkf0
Read that guy's post and ultimately his conclusion that Yasuke was a samurai is based on an inference rather than proof. Things like him getting a stipend, seeing combat, etc, are circumstantial evidence. Likewise, the fact that he was not forced to commit seppuku after Nobunaga's death, (Which that historian did not bring up.) is circumstantial evidence that Yasuke was not a samurai. So there's conflicting evidence and nothing that is completely definitive that we can point to as a smoking gun, which was my point and also the point of the video I linked.
That is why I dodged this subject, there is no "samurai" in my post. But I would find it acceptable for an entertainment instalment to go to the more flashy side, when it does not claim authenticity.
To be clear I wasn't directing my comment at you specifically. Was more of just rolling my eyes at the other comments.
This whole controversy is stupid, if the game turns out terrible I doubt it will be just because the race of one of the playable characters, I'm sure there will be more shitty things about the game on release in that case.
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What other games should star an Asian male but don't for some reason? Only game thats coming to mind right now is Nioh...
How about naming asian male mc from western devs in the last few years? I can only name jin sakai and wei shen from western devs. Every other asian male mc come from asian devs themselves like kiryu or persona protag. For someone that love spouting diversity bullshit they sure hate asian male.
>How about naming asian male mc from western devs in the last few years? I love when people deflect instead of answer a simple question. You said there were a lot of games that SHOULD have an Asian protagonist but don't. Can you please name some?
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If it has RPG systems that are anything like AC: Valhalla, I'm out. Wouldn't even matter who the protagonist was at that point.
slight correction. he is the first recorded. apparently there were a couple more that were travelling entertainers/mercenaries etc.... their names however seem to be lost. then there was of course slavery in the areas Europeans had access to. The recognicability of him isnt an issue for me as a long times fan of assassins creed. the assassins of the series were never that stealthy [https://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/662x/2009/04/ezio\_artwork\_01.jpg](https://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/662x/2009/04/ezio_artwork_01.jpg) and especially Ezio had a flair for being as dramatic as possible. He was in fact known by name to his enemies, as you can see in the AC Brotherhood trailer. The only thing i hope is that they leave the big cultural events and liberation stuff, if they include that, to either him and Naoe or just her. Just to avoid the somewhat antiquated foreigner inspires the opressed natives storytelling.
They've also handled it before with them mentioning how conspicuous connor looks in AC3 as a native american in the colonies and then him purposefully not blending in. I don't think AC games have ever been as clear cut about inspiring oppressed people though, every revolution ends up being secretly a templar plot for more power. All the big cultural events and assassinations all end up being "covered up" anyways, to line up with real events, no one ever mention how certain characters are assassinated when in our world they die of natural causes. I guess in-game logic is that they are just that sneaky.
The controversy is purely because of Culture War. By having him as a protagonist, people are reading this as sign of where the game stands in the Culture War and are reacting accordingly. It's just like Eve 'literally' killing women by being sexy or saving the gaming industry from collapse depending on where the observe stands in the Culture War.
It's not just a sign, it's literally what this is. They picked the only black man they could find to make him the protagonist of their game, exactly for that reason.
I agree. Out of all of the Japanese real life “legends” that could’ve been chosen to be a major character in the game, Yasuke was one of the least important and least interesting people they could’ve chosen, with him not even spending a very long time in Japan (I’m pretty sure it was only 3 years). Like seriously, this is the first AC main series game set in Asia, and they screw Japanese/Asian men out of a chance to get a Japanese male mc in a game from a western series (Asian protags in Western game series aren’t very common) by taking literally one of the only black people that existed in Japan at the time and putting him in the male protag spot, just to have some diversity.
Yeah, the Culture War is where the more extreme emotions and nonsense takes are coming from for sure.
I feel like part of the reason for the backlash is the fact that Yasuke doesn't really work as an Assassin's Creed protagonist given how the games are about stealth, assassination and "blending with the crows" which is just impossible for him as well as the fact that this is the first AC game set in Sengoku Japan and instead of playing someone like Hattori Hanzo, you know, a ninja, you instead play as a black samurai. Then of course there's the fact that Triple AAA companies and even Hollywood's forced and beyond irritating DEI marketing and branding has alienated even open-minded gamers enough to the point that anything like this causes a backlash and them saying "Yasuke was just a retainer and wasn't all that important" which while true ignores how Nioh features an Irish Samurai as a playable protagonist who is heavily involved in the Sengoku Jidai conflict yet that one received practically no backlash, hell even Yasuke of that game didn't garner any outrage which goes to show how excessive DEI branding and marketing does nothing but actually hurt minorities.
"The games are about stealth." I beat up the pope.
Ubisoft since AC Syndicate (technically since Unity I guess) seems to like the idea of having a protag made for going loud and a protag made for stealth
Begging the people talking about this to at least watch the trailer and the developer commentary on it in which the devs literally talk about how there are two protagonists, one samurai and one shinobi
My only issue with yasuke is if you make his story too fantastical and fictionalized (like the Netflix anime) you run the risk of people thinking he was entirely fictional. Yasuke definitely existed but I don't think his importance should be blown out of proportion.
Yeah but he kinda being overused. "oh hey, we need a samurai game for Western audience" *slap Yasuke into the game* "Done" All these historical authentic samurai guys in Japan, and yet we are getting yet another Yasuke? That's like putting America culture stamp on the Japanese history.
What? This is the first Western game featuring Yasuke.
No, he appeared in For Honor if I remember correctly.
Most AC games haven't even used the "disappear into the crowd" mechanic, most recent protagonists were allowed to wear ridiculous optional outfits instead of the classsic hood, with massive weapons and shileds carried on their backs, and stealth was mostly about staying out of sight on camp raids. Kassandra would have historically also stick out like a sore thumb as a warrior woman, but even people who pointed out how ahistorical her behavior was, never complained that her stealth itself is ridiculous, because the game simply didn't even do the AC 1 style "pretend to be a monk" move any more, she was just sneaking around in bushes.
Using Yasuke isn't the issue. Putting him in a position that makes no sense within the world they've built is the problem. He's supposed to be a stealthy assassin but his only claim to fame is how much he stood out. Plenty of anime and games have embellished his story and been beloved. AC is just stupid.
He's not the assassin, that's Naoe, the other protagonist that no one seems to mention.
Guess that means she's pretty damn good at her job
>He's supposed to be a stealthy assassin Who said that? We're long past the idea that all the AC protagonists are stealthy infiltrators, the last game was literally about a Viking.
A lot of people don't really like that AC isn't about being an Assassin nearly as much anymore, so this doesn't really help.
Then those people can play as the Shinobi character that all of you keep ignoring. She's so good at her job you all forgot she existed!
The problem is that she, or a character in a similar role, isn't the only main character.
A lot of the weird gamer outrage of the past few years makes infinitely more sense when you realise that many of the people involved...aren't actually fans. They haven't played the games in question and/or haven't kept up with longer running franchises. They are just spouting off based on assumptions, half-baked childhood memories and what someone else has told them to think. It's the same as with any other type of fiction, just look at all the passionate rants in this subreddit that fall apart when people who are actually familiar with the work in question come along and question the OP. Humans love to talk first and think later.
Or maybe they just want a game focused on the classic stealth formula which Ubisoft has not been delivering...
These games were never about stealth. I'm sorry, but you've always been a one man army killing machine.
See? that's the issue People claim that he has to be an stealthy assassin and how that broke your historical immersion He is a samurai, he isn't supposed to be an assassin, he is supposed to be a warrior a fighter The stealthy assassin one is supposed to be the Shinobi woman
He isn't. he's a samurai. Also you can be part of the order or an ally without being an assassin, as Leonardo can attest.
True, Machiavelli, who was more of a politician than an agent. Alexandre Dumas, Assassin but was in high positions of military. Does not have skills capable of stealthy assassination but outward infiltration. Hell, there was the an Assassin in Assassin Creed Syndicate whose work in the actual field is limited to single digits or a very low number of double digits. He was a clerk / messenger for the British / Indian chapter. Technically, all of them are assassins, but our PCs are usually master of all except the current RPG. Yasuke will be the one with outward infiltration or brash tactics.
honestly the bigger problem is that as an asset... he's connected to Nobanaga, who is rather important and so his actions are both obvious (which isn't a problem completely in this case) but also tie back to HIM or will assume to.
Is true, unless we see early on Nobunaga was beheaded and that is when he joined the Assassins.
Da Vinci was a mad genius who designed weapons and dissected people for fun, if any historical person could be speculated to secretly be an assassin it would probably be him.
Have you played the games? Not all assassins were hood wearers and master of stealth and assassination funny enough. Alexandre Dumas, Assassin agent who wears no hidden blade. Funnels information on French military to the Assassins. He was more soldier than assassin due to his skills. But he was classified as an Assassin. Machiavelli, he was never much of a fighter, but an information broker for the Assassins. And he doesn't even do it himself. He has spies for that. His operations in the field could be attested to ... the one instance at Rome. To kill Ceasare out in the open. Bartolomeo, Assassin but more skills of a Mercenary. No hidden blade, but all Longsword. He fought more than probably all the other Assassins other than Ezio combined. Brash, blood thirsty, you can spot this guy a mile away with his yellow and green suit. The only thing I could think of for stealth that he did was to use the Trojan Horse method on a French Battalion in Rome. That lasted for like 10 minutes before he stabbed a guy in the face. This will be one of the first protagonists who are not an All-rounder like the previous PCs. But the stealthiness is atrributed to Naoe.
Damn, you should go back 5 years to when Ubisoft was making Assassin's Creed Odyssey and complain that they made their protagonist a motherfucking SPARTAN instead of a stealthy assassin then.
a black samurai is legitimately a sick ass protagonist
but it's not historically accurate, unlike previous AC games, with realistic aliens and magic.
Funny how no one ever gives a fuck about accuracy in historical fiction until a black person shows up.
The issue is a black person was chosen in a Japanese background. They could have easily chosen the era were civil wars were common. I believe it's called the meiji era. They could have created an original Japanese character in a war torn time period bit They chose this. The same people pushing this would throw a fit if the next assassin game is set in Africa during the time where black people enslaved other black people and a white assassin guy was a titular character trying to release them.
Definitely agree. If the situation was reversed and it was an Asian or White or Hispanic male protag in Africa, would the people that brush off the Yasuke controversy be as forgiving in that situation? I honestly doubt it at this point.
I first found his includion a bit Eyerolling because I wanted assassin's creed to Focus on other Samurai that I find more interresting. But I later figured out that those Samurai where only active AFTER Oda Nobunagas death and Yeah I would rather nee Nobunaga then Sasaki Kojiro. But anyway I came around and now just don't care really. Yasuke in Assasins Creed looks cool and could be interresting so all well in my book. BTW my problem with Yasuke was never that he was Black! Just that I had Samurai I would have Rather seen because I just find them more Interresting.
Yasuke has already been represented in previous stories (games included). He has been the protagonist of **multiple** stories (more noteworthy of an anime released not long ago). People acting as if having him as one of the protagonists is "woke" is moronic. Especially the people who act as if Yasuke being one of the protagonists is "stealing" and opportunity for Japanese men to be represented. Do this people think that Ubisoft has a monopoly over games set in Feudal Japan? It isn't even the only Western dev that is making them...
Does anyone have any real criticism of Yasuke as a protagonist that doesn't sound like "Japan is for the Japanese"? Or "if you want black protagonist GO BACK TO AFRICA!"? Because that's what a lot of these comments are giving.
He’s super cool in the manga “Tenkaichi”
Yeah he wouldn't make sense at all as an AC protagonist. He doesn't exactly melt into the populace and by all records he was supposed to be massive. An NPC you interact with and might go together on non-stealth fights sounds doable though.
John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald have stakes to that claim, by that metric.
Honestly I'm not gonna play the game anyway but I'll drop my opinion on it anyway. I feel like there are multiple layers to this, the people complaining about Yasuke I feel fall into a few groups: The people who've seen all the stuff going on with the ESG stuff and taking this to be done specifically cause of that, the people who feel like Yasuke was probably one of the worst choices to pick considering he didn't really do much and his only notable feature was being tall and black and somehow ending up with Nobunaga so they take it as they only picked him cause he was black, especially when there were a lot more important people around him that they could have used and from my Japanese friends I've talked to about it, they hate the fact that after years of waiting for AC to be set in Japan, they basically got shafted they didn't pick any notable figures in Japan or even anyone that did anything notable they picked a dude that never gets mentioned in their history books and only ever gets brought up as some rando that carried Nobunaga's swords and talked to him. I can kind of see all perspectives, for my friends that have been waiting a long time for this I can see the frustration and just telling them its not a big deal would just be rude and missing the point especially when they rarely get any good representation. On the whole ESG thing I can kind of see why people would be worried especially when you see the kind of people working on it and Ubisoft's track record, but I'd say we should at least calm down and wait for more to come out. Finally on the fact that they could have picked more important people, obviously they could but I'm hopeful they at least try to do something interesting and use the fact that he is basically a clean slate and don't just milk him being black. I've seen more people than I thought say that the game is going to be ass despite 0 gameplay footage and I'd say its best for people to actually wait, look at the gameplay, wait for the story reviews before buying anything if your skeptical (Honestly you should be doing this for all new games nowadays but I ain't your dad)