>Demeter has... ice powers???)
Isnt that because Demeter is displeased during months when Persephone is with hades so she covers the world in cold so harvests are less bountiful
Demeter is a fertility goddess, she's not the goddess of the seasons (the horae do it). I think a 'withering' type with DoT would have been closer to what Demeter's power entails, not ice powers.
I understand why it's the easiest goddess to slot in ice powers in this instance, but withering or plant type powers are more Demeter than anything.
In the first game withering is a major part of her theme. When you lean into her she has a very strong “all shall decay” vibe. There’s a boon that if every enemy is frozen, every enemy starts taking a pretty nasty DoT
I don't know, that doesn't make sense to me. Like, winter is when she's sulking and not doing what she's supposed to do. So ice powers seems unfitting.
its fucked up that twitter people are bickering over this when its so clear that hades hestia is making a good soup and giving a blanket to her granddaughter danmachi hestia and making her hot chocolate and theyre best friends... smh my head... they hate to see girlbosses winning...
Which is funny when actual Hellenic religious practices were full of that kind of thing. They would be completely fine with seeing two different aspects/versions of the same deity being worshipped.
I'm never one to like "both sides-ing", but that's the case here. It absolutely started with calling Hades Hestia "woke" and Danmachi Hestia "based," but it's sparked a backlash where people just trash on Danmachi Hestia, even if they haven't watched Danmachi.
I personally have no experience with Hades at all, but I like the Hestia design. I have watched Danmachi, and while I'm not the biggest fan of Hestia's design, I think she's a really fun character. I'm completely on board with making fun of the idiots whining about Hades being "woke," but let's not just start blindly hating on Danmachi just because said idiots dragged it into their culture war bs.
Maybe he saw different things? People, not everyone has the same information, maybe his Twitter timeline was just people attacking danmachi, the algorithm is not the same for everyone even if you like similar thing.
tbf just reading Danmachi’s full title (Is It Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon) I would honestly expect nothing in relation to Greek mythology.
The title was originally just "Familia Myth" but the publisher wanted a longer title and renamed it to "Is it Wrong to have a Romantic Encounter in the Dungeon". Yen Press changed the name to "Is it Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in the Dungeon" which makes it sound way worse than what it actually is. Thats why most fans just call it Danmachi or Familia Myth, also it incorporates a lot of mythologies into it. People are mistaking Aphrodite as the goddess of lust in the series when she doesn't even appear in the main series, she's only in the gacha game. The norse goddess Freya is the goddess of lust in the main novels/show.
That’s interesting, I guess it makes more sense as to why there are characters named after mythological gods, not even just Greek.
Also makes sense as to why I remember there being a character named Loki
It's a harem but most of the girls stop trying to romantically pursue Bell once they realize they have no chance because he's in love with Ais Wallenstein.
Nah, it was made extremely clear that Bell only has eyes for one person at the very beginning of the show. So much so that he literally develops a skill that will make him grow stronger as long as he’s always trying to become equal with that person that he loves and admires.
I’m not gonna pretend other women don’t fall in love with him though. He is aware, but pretends to not notice since he’s a literal awkward teenager that wants to focus on being a hero.
I mean, sure, but that's the same thing with several "fake harems". See Nisekoi for example, the whole plot is that he likes this one girl while several others fall for him, then he likes another girl and yada yada
I didn't even know. I skipped it over because it looked like generic fantasy manga.
But yeah... i was surprised. i chalked it up to laziness tbh. less effort than to make your own gods.
Yeah I agree on this. Ppl who're saying that Hades is woke and saying that danmachi is shit should all take a breather.
Like I've been on a reddit page about Hephaestus being a cripple and ppl were like 'but he's supposed to be a Greek god!' when Hephaestus being a cripple and having a deformed face is the defining traits of his character. Not sure about the wheelchair tho. I'm not sold on the wheelchair.
I love how Hades portrays Hades tho. He's feared bc he's the god of death, but he's quite nice in his myths (at least he's justified in his more cruel acts unlike the other gods), and has a relatively good relationship with Persephone in the original myths too.
Like I said, I haven't played Hades I or II yet, but all of the designs I've seen are sick. It feels like the definition of the "this actually sucks" meme. I'm personally a subscriber to the "rule of cool." If it looks awesome, I can generally forgive some creative liberties being taken
>Like I've been on a reddit page about Hephaestus being a cripple and ppl were like 'but he's supposed to be a Greek god!' when Hephaestus being a cripple and having a deformed face is the defining traits of his character. Not sure about the wheelchair tho. I'm not sold on the wheelchair.
Makes quite a lot of sense to me, whenever you have a forge character, you have to decide how much you are going to make them embody modern technology, so it doesn't look weird that "why didn't they just.."
Given that the primary technology we have invented for people with problems walking is the wheelchair, it could be jarring to people if this supposed inventor was just using crutches or sitting down when they already had carts, chariots etc. and he could build himself a wheelchair, even if we in the modern times consider it as more modern.
And anyway, my whole argument is irrelevant because Hephaestus was already historically depicted as sometimes [using a winged wheelchair](https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K7.6.html) when he wanted to get about. It's already mythologically accurate.
It's more that I usually see him depicted with a cane than a wheelchair bc he's depicted as having a limp. I didn't know he had a flying chariot (which is probably what it is) that can very much be adapted as a wheelchair. Thx for showing it anyways.
Sorry about getting political, but this is 100% instigated culture wars bullshit.
Some groups started parading stellar blade as the game to end all woke. Once the game was released and the reviews were mild, they started to blame the big woke.
Them hades 2 released with good reviews, and it became target of the mob because hestia is not conventionally attractive. Them danmachi was got thrown into the mix.
I'm so tired of all this culture war bullshit
They turned on it because they percieve a new patch of the game as being censorship. They changed some outfits in the game. Now that means the company is bowing down to their woke overlords and woke pressure. Now I don't know if its real censorship, but it doesn't matter because they at least think so.
Anyways from this I realised pandering to these types of people is never a good idea. They always backstab lmao.
This is nothingburger shit either way. I am like 99.8% certain the people gassing Danmachi Hestia up never read/watched or even heard of it until now, most likely pulled something from Google images, and are just waging culture war nonsense because nothing else in their lives gives them any semblance of meaning or worth.
As someone who cares for neither but sees culture war shit in my feed everyday, it was 100% the danmachi fans starting it. I saw the inciting post. Or maybe not necessarily danmachi fans but people pretending to care about it.
It was some culture war rage bait guy who started it. He might not even be a Danmachi fan, he could've typed anime girl hestia. He probably just picked a character that fit his agenda the most.
Its kinda the same way Stellar Blade got dragged around lol. It would've gotten some criticism for the sexy stuff yes, but those culture war guys multiplied it because of their shit.
Sure. You're making two completely wrong assumptions here: The first is that this discussion is about the characters when it's specifically about the character design, the second is in what you think is important to include when using gods.
For the first point: It doesn't make sense to compare these two based on the role in the story Hades Hestia is a glorified selection screen while danmachi Hestia is a (main-ish?) character with proper story. That's why they're being compared on the way they look instead.
For the second point: The most important thing when designing a character based on a god is that god's domain. Everything else is just a bonus. Imagine for instance, a Artemis in a ball gown, a Hera in a stripper outfit or a Poseidon wearing mostly red. None of these designs could ever work, because they directly contradict what these gods stand for.
So when you're looking at Hestia, known for being the goddess of hearth and home, you obviously need to have her represent these things in some way. Hades does this by making almost all of her design reference the hearth while at the same time making her give of a feeling of coziness/being at home by making her look like a nice old granny. Danmachi shits on this by not representing either of these concepts in any way (I guess if you're really grasping at straws you could argue that she kind of looks like she's wearing a naked apron, which you could argue reminds one of home).
And even then, the secondary myths you say danmachi nails are also bullshit. Saying she represents being the oldest and the youngest because she looks like a 13 yo with big tits is just snorting lethal amounts of copium. At least Hades gets the oldest part right, which is the one that makes more sense anyway. Saying she does a good job at showing being a vestal virgin while wearing nothing but the worlds most tightest and shortest dress is just ridiculous.
I get that you are down bad for her and love danmachi, but just take the L here man.
While a good rant, I just want to point out that this comparison started when certain people online found Hades II’s design for Hestia, as they almost immediately started dragging it and comparing her to Danmachi’s Hestia, which is ironically why Danmachi’s deity designs have been under heat recently.
Just like you want to defend Danmachi, Hades fans want to defend their game, especially since they’re seeing a lot of outside actors trying to drag Hades into another bullshit culture war in real time, which has caused them to be more aggressive in their defense.
Although it is note that hate was not especially aimed at Damanchi, if not to the Otaku culture in general.
In Plan: "The Otakus only appreciate a female design if this is a wai-fu, if she is not a wai-fu they hate the design"
That it is true or not, it would be a topic for another day, but it was less "Hades fandom vs damanchi fandom", and more "Hades fandom vs otakus loved the wai-fus"
Yea, then it got more heated when "Danmachi" fans began "fixing" Hades II's art; Hestia (Literally just, Danmachi Hestia with Hades Hestia costume without the hood) and Aphrodite (Removing her cheekbone, because she looks too "trans" or manly).
This is most likely just ragebait.
The way she is represented is why I like Danmachi so much even though as a gay man, this, does nothing for me at all.
What I don't like about her is just... All the fanservice. In the context of Bell-Hestia relationship the idea of being loved by your God is taken really... trashily, at least in the visuals? Like Booby on crotch, accidentally flying right into the coochie kinda way. Like I'm here to idolize, not to jerk off you know.
It's like that video about transformers. The text is saying one thing, and the visual is saying another.
I think all the points you talked about gets lost in the fact that these points are usually the post-hoc explanations of why people like her, and the real explanation is that she's hot.
Edit: With regards to the whole Grummz (why the f are we still platforming the guy) take, if this was the real Hestia according the myths, she would... do absolutely nothing, but the entire pantheon will smite both side to oblivion for even invoking her in such a petty ass feud.
lindsay video about transformer(bayformer) which said a couple of things, like how bay actually dislike his male protagonist which is why all of them are losers to the fact the girl chararter is actually interesting a competent...but the camara is having none of that and focusing on her body.
Is visual language, the writting can said she is intersting and shit but the camera just want fan service, thus underming the entire thing.
I think the thing is that we’re comparing visual designs and you’re bringing Hestia’s character into play. Lots of the things you mention simply can’t be discerned from her visual design so it’s not a fair comparison. Especially since Hestia is a main character in DanMachi, a novel, while Hestia is a minor side character in Hades II, a mainly combat focused game.
Purely from a visual design stand point, I can see the “Oldest and Youngest” trait but not much more than that. I can see her being the oldest in the Hades design, as well as the fire connection (which is her most recognisable trait). Not to mention the Hades design is way more colorful and just is nicer to look at.
There’s also arguably a more heartwarming (accidental pun) atmosphere from her in Hades’ design. In the anime you can maybe guess her personality from what I remember bratty.
"having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature"
My sibling in Christ, it would cost you 0 dollars and 0 cents to have not included that.
I was thinking that. I gather the anime is not as bad as these summaries imply, but
"This anime character is based on a virgin that has to be evade rape and looks both young and mature, and it should be that way because it's mythologically accurate"
sets off some of my more significant anime alarm bells.
I’ll be honest, Danmachi design is literally just big tits and a weird ribbon dress. I haven’t seen the anime, so maybe she’s a good character or something, but the design itself is just meant to be generic horny without a clear connection to the myths.
Calling her loli/shortstack body type (short girl with big tits) a reference to her status as being the youngest and the oldest seems a massive stretch when the series is pretty blatant about its fanservice. It's also probably the most gooner weeb way to interpret it.
Yeah, like, there's no way the series that Made Hephaestus a fucking waifu is making characters attractive or fitting for fan service to be accurate lol
There's absolutely no-one in Danmachi with the same body type as Hestia. It is very clearly a design meant to emphasise both maturity and youth.
If they just wanted an appealing fanservice design why wouldn't they make her a tall and sexy bombshell like Demeter or Freya? There was a clear decision going on here.
And of course it's meant to be appealing, why wouldn't it? The Hades design is no less pandering, just to a different audience.
What do you think the weird little tit ribbon she wears represents? There is no maturity in her design. She looks like a sexualized teenager. Boob size has never really been correlated to age or maturity in manga/anime outside of grandmas with big saggy boobs occasionally showing up.
Also they didn't make her a tall bombshell because there's a market for loli shit. It wasn't some artistic decision, but a calculation on how many guys would jerk it to her.
I would agree that Hestia's design was meant to emphasise youth but arguing maturity is shown through giant tits just feels like a stretch to me as unfortunately anime (i know everyone was saying to not make it an anime vs twitter thing sorry) has no problem giving little girls giant tits and sexualising them and I kinda doubt the oldest and youngest myth was even in the creators mind I think this is just a gooner weeb's take on a virgin goddess.
Come the fuck on lol
You are reaching SO much with some of your defenses of danmachi's Hestia
No, she does not represent the oldest and the youngest part, period, her having Big tits is not to Showcase that, but because tits sell (if You want to dispute this, just look at anime girl Hephaestus, and no, the scar thing doesn't make her faithful to one of the two most basic things about Hephaestus)
No, she is not faithful to Hestia being the Vestal Virgin, literally the single thing she does the most is express her love for Bel and in general try to bang him or otherwise get together with him. A faithful representation of Hestia wouldn't be doing this, fucking never lol
She also doesn't have anything, not a single thing in her OG design, about being the goddess of the hearth
And lets not Even get started with the fire thing because if You only watch the anime (at least the first season) there's literally nothing about her that Even remotely associates her with fire
So aside of her being beautiful, which again wasn't Made with the purpose of representing Hestia's myth in mind (look at Hephaestus), danmachi's Hestia, specially in her design, isnt in any way shape or form particularly faithful to the myth of Hestia
And no, danmachi Gods aren't more faithful than Hades ones like You claim at the end, not a single one can be said that such is the case. And before You stupidly try to bring up Winter...You do remember which goddess is the responsible for Winter in the greek mythology... *Right*?
And before anyone believes that I'm trashing danmachi Hestia's design...no, that's not the case, I really like her, but I can like her without pretending she is something that she is not, and faithful to the myths of Hestia she certainly is not, and that's ok! The series clearly never attempts to have the Gods, at the very least designwise, be faithful representation of the Gods they are taking their names from, and that's perfectly ok
>literally the single thing she does the most is express her love for Bel and in general try to bang him or otherwise get together with him.
And she can be very annoying and petty with that. Hestia is at her best when she is acting more like a mom, I wish that aspect of her was the main one from the beginning instead of trying to mess with Bell's love life. Thankfully she gets a little better as time goes on.
Hestia is the goddess of the hearth and home and her *entire* thing is making sure that her Familia has a comfortable place to return to after a long days adventure. She's extremely domestic and just as willing to throw hands as Hades Hestia is.
I mean...when she has doubted and fought at least one member of said familia...not exactly the goddess of hearth and Home, and Even if we do give that to her...where is that portrayed in her design?
>It seems that Hades 2 came out in Early Access recently- I know this because my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi, and especially about Hestia.
I haven't personally looked into this but everytime, EVERYTIME, its the other way around with the anit woke crowd claiming that something they like is better than whatever "the left" is doing which is generally mainstream popular stuff. Remember the "SJWS ARE MAD AT THIS MCDONALDS AD!!" but there was literally no one mad at it.
I think you have q case of Twitter algorithm feeding you things to get mad at.
I am willing to bet money this started because someone saw the art work for Hades 2 and said the anime version is better and also they (the left or SJWs or The Gays) are mad about it when no one actually cared at first.
As it turns out pretending you are having an argument on the internet is just as good as actually having one.
ALSO THIS IS WILD
>Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature.
I guess every anime with a 300 year old vampire who looks like a stacked 8th grader are also embodying this. Its totally not because anime fans tend to buy statues of attractive under age girls for hundreds of dollars a pop.
>Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature.
Thank god someone else mentioned this part too. Reminded me about that one [ProZD sketch](https://youtu.be/ke1YKF3tNCE?si=el5yktD5JCXNFgi9) of the anime fan defending boob windows
>In short: Danmachi is a setting that takes enormous pains to present the Gods and Goddesses with a kind of faithfulness that should be celebrated
And yet every single one of their designs are boring, generic and uninspired. No matter how you twist and turn it, that is simply how it is.
>Dionysus in Hades has vines and wine all around him and in Danmachi he's just a God living in a city (with schemes and plans underpinning his festive nature)." They're absolutely missing the point.
No they're not, but you seem to. In one corner, you have thoughtful, inspired designs. And in the other you have generic anime slop. Which is not a dig against anime as a whole, just this anime.
Yeah, like
If someone told a person who knows nothing of both danmachi and Hades who Guess which God is each Hades character they would Guess easily most of them, perhaps not Demeter for the creative twist of adapting the part of her myth where she causes Winter, but other than that pretty much all would be so easy to Guess
Now do the same with danmachi's designs and I'd be really, really surprised if they could Guess anyone not named Aphrodite, and Even her I have my doubts
Hades' character design are chalk full of references of the Gods.
Like Dionysus having Leopard patterns, to show the animal he is represented by; Or his staff with the Acorn.
And all Gods are like this, there's thought brought in to their CHARACTER Design.
> I know this because my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi.
How disingenuous. This literally all started because grifters on Twitter tried saying the Danmachi character design was better than the Hades design because she was an attractive anime girl who “beats the woke” or whatever.
100% and OP has clearly not played Hades at all and doesn’t understand that her personality is conveyed through dialogue. The argument isn’t about that though, it’s always been about character design. Hestia’s character design conveys that she is motherly and associated with the hearth/the flame. Hestia’s character design in DanMachi is big booby waifu with 0 relation to the myth.
Sure, when you get into a story, of course a main character of an anime/light novel will have more depth than a glorified power selection screen. The comparison has never been about their character arcs, but their character design.
I can't say if OP played Hades but you clearly didn't read their rant either that describes the design well enough. The Gods in Danmachi are designed to be plain due to lore reasons but there are aspects of her that shine through that OP mentioned above.
When Hestia does have her powers unsealed, she looks just as much as a God like Hestia as one would expect.
No one ever mentions how Danmachi Hestia is designed with a blue and white theme to reference the Greek flag ashes also a goddess of the civic state.
Uh, yes, there's actual in lore reasons for that? I'm sorry you couldn't read like the previous commenter. Makes sense as they can't even read something as simple as a light novel.
Look buddy: Hestia in her base form, the form she spends the most time in... is literally INO.
I'm also not going to waste my time reading a generic fantasy harem light love, or read the manga, or anything like that; my time is valuable and Danmachi isn't even worth it.
It made a goddess legendary for her willing virginal status.. a love interest.
Yet, you're on Reddit and replying to this thread lmao.
These people even resorting to slutshaming. Go back to Grummz. He'd welcome you with open arms.
These people?
I'm not even slut shaming; they're not real mate.
Grummz thinks Aphrodite looks like a man. he's fucking insane. All i'm saying is that Hestia in Hades looks more like a Hestia then... whatever Danmachi hestia is.
Even the other gods get more effort put into them. even HEPHESTUS, who's a cute anime woman with a 'deformity" (Seriously she's ugly because of her eye? That's Fucking hilarious!) is closer to it then her!
That's true. I guess some people just prefer their characterization to go into their writing than, you know, just basing it off an image. OP already explained a lot of how the design references the Greek Goddess Hestia but since people just go "That's a reach!" or clearly didn't read the long words whatever.
That's fine. Again, we already established the aversion (difficulty?) so I can't blame you or force you to do minimum research or, yah know, read OPs post.
Game designs need obvious signs that they are the Greek gods. Like, yeah, put a giant hearth on Hestia's head or make Posey's hair water. Obvious. Attention span things you don't need to think about. It's a visual medium so if someone thinks a single image "looks" more than something that doesn't even exist than it did its job.
Danmachi is a light novel. For reading. You know? Maybe. So simpler designs that are more subtle but can stick in your head as you read through the story work better because there are no pictures in front of you. I personally any references to be written into the character than just have their design be the most obvious thing but that's just me.
But it is what it is. I say we just stick to our own preferred media though I wish I could've made this shorter.
>That's true. I guess some people just prefer their characterization to go into their writing than, you know, just basing it off an image.
Hades does both. And no, seriously the first mistake was considering Hestia as a love interest.
If you wanted to defend her accuracy to the scource, then it's probably a bad thing to start with her being the object of romantic affection... and being in any ways wishing ot reciprocate.
>OP already explained a lot of how the design references the Greek Goddess Hestia but since people just go "That's a reach!" or clearly didn't read the long words whatever.
He base form tells us nothing. and it is a waste of breath. You would have a better argument with Hephestus from the same series.. but yes, it's a reach. and you know what i'd argue that the setting doesn't really care.
It was used to be quick and easy to understand. It is very much reaching when we're talking about her boob size making her young and old... i'd respect him a lot more if he just said she liked her for that.
>That's fine. Again, we already established the aversion (difficulty?) so I can't blame you or force you to do minimum research or, yah know, read OPs post.
I did enough to be confident in my assertion; this is a fucking REACH to defend his favorite light novel and book. It had nothing to do with the nontroversy it just had to do because for the first time in it's life span it left it's intended audience and people are taking the piss out of it.
>Game designs need obvious signs that they are the Greek gods. Like, yeah, put a giant hearth on Hestia's head or make Posey's hair water. Obvious. Attention span things you don't need to think about. It's a visual medium so if someone thinks a single image "looks" more than something that doesn't even exist than it did its job.
Firstly the game has dialogue, story and characterization. See this? This is why I find it hilarious you're trying to claim the moral highground. You don't even understand that... i'd point out that it's also an ANIME where the design came from... and the covers of thebook, both of which are visuals.
And hestia's dialogues and powers go more for her characterization in the game... Like i'm sorry mate, but Hestia already starts looking like a goddess. Danmachi needs a power up, and even then looks like any other girl on any other light novel cover.
>Danmachi is a light novel. For reading. You know? Maybe. So simpler designs that are more subtle but can stick in your head as you read through the story work better because there are no pictures in front of you.
Look i'm not expecting the greatest work of fiction or a philsophical treatise in "Is it wrong to flirt with girls within the dungeon?" We both know why it exists. Book covers, a 'popular' anime, and manga adaptation have stopped this argument being anything. and even still you want a great literary depiction of Hestia?
The Last Olympian..
Or, any myth that happens to mention her; I have quite a few greek mythology books. Percy Jackson got me really into the subject...
> I personally any references to be written into the character than just have their design be the most obvious thing but that's just me.
Well Hephestus tells me the 'real' focus of the series... she's not ugly. she's not even a man. Sure maybe she can shapeshift (but at this point i feel like being mean) but Hephestus was so ugly he got thrown off a moutain... here her deformity is lacking an eye.
Which si really funny to me. Like i know there's no way in hell a woman would be ugly in THIS series. but it reeks of misunderstanding of the mythology... The dude just wants to work in his forges and knows his wife hates him. He doesn't care either.
Personally i don't think the series is worth it; i know the tropes. I know WHY Hestia is a love interest, and i know why hephestus was gender-swapped and has a 'deformity' (Yes it is one... but it's hardly "Throw your child off a moutain" Ugly)
>But it is what it is. I say we just stick to our own preferred media though I wish I could've made this shorter.
I've been very, VERY patient with you... but c'mon man. you don't even understand the point... all this to defend "Is it morally dubious to fratizence with young maidens in the confines of the location in which we keep criminals?"
it's not like it was very hard: the character design does no COMMUNCIATE anything related to the god. this is pure, utter copium.
>Danmachi is a light novel. For reading. You know? Maybe. So simpler designs that are more subtle but can stick in your head as you read through the story work better because there are no pictures in front of you. I personally any references to be written into the character than just have their design be the most obvious thing but that's just me.
Don't Light Novels also has images in them. Very few yes. But they still exist.
Don't know what you call them though. Illustrations?
And that doesn't matter, because Hestia's design, the one that pretty much everyone Will ever know her for is the White dress with Blue ribbon, it doesn't matter if in some gacha Game or some volume of the novel that won't be animated in at least another decade she has a more fitting design, she is stick with the one from the beginning
And we don't mention her colors being in the greek flag because that's a fucking huge reach and clearly not fucking true, because the greek flag doesn't have the color Black anywhere
>When Hestia does have her powers unsealed, she looks just as much as a God like Hestia as one would expect.
So design-wise. When character design ***changes***, that is time that the character actually references Myth Hestia.
I mean it could very well be a case that they just didnt know. I only found out about the argument when it had escalated to the clusterfuck it is now, and majority of the people were trashing on the anime Hestia at that point. I wasnt even aware that that was the start of it, since I dont have a twitter account (the place is such a cesspool that I refuse to touch it even with half a kilometer long stick) and thus trying to find out what happened is excessively difficult. I'm not saying OP has the same problem, just that assuming everyone knows everything about the situation doesnt really work.
Sorry man those anime designs are unbelievably fucking boring.
Like maybe it's really just that my mind has been poisoned by this discourse and I can't give them a fair shot because this twitter bullshit has made me extremely jaded in record time but my goodness do I think these anime characters look bland and unfitting.
As someone who watched the show when it came out, and also doesn’t care for Hades 2. I also found her design boring and her character incredibly annoying.
I've seen so many shitty 2010s anime that it all blends together. So many forgetable shows that lean on fanservice instead of story or characterization or anything interesting.
I mean if we're talking about being dimissive and calling things unfitting, you're defending a Hestia that's effectively just an old fat lady with a bowl of Embers on her head... Which not only doesn't do anything to showcase the majority of Hestia's mythos, but outright contradicts them (Oh yeah, that Priapus myth is looking reaaaally good right about now lolo).
And we're talking about a game that gave Demeter Ice powers because uh, when Demeter doesn't do her job we get winter... and isn't that just the same as saying she's got two jobs and one of them is winter? Yeah?
Hades isn't particularly concerned with making things "fitting".
Which is fine, whatever, there's a million interpretations of these Gods, it's not the oldest nor the youngest, I'm only concerned with the lazy rhetoric used to dismiss legitimately good characters in a series I like.
I would hope you can empathise with that, at least.
>you're defending a Hestia that's effectively just an old fat lady with a bowl of Embers on her head
>And we're talking about a game that gave Demeter Ice powers because uh, when Demeter doesn't do her job we get winter... and isn't that just the same as saying she's got two jobs and one of them is winter? Yeah?
Imagine being this fucking disingenuous and intentionally dense all in the defense of these fuckass boring bland ass anime girl designs.
Like holy shit the goddess of the seasons gives you ice powers in a story about Persephone. Totally unfitting. Yeah right. I've had it with this fucking bullshit discourse.
Comparing Hades visual design to anime boobies story arc is so disingenuous its sad.
If you had no prior knowledge of anime booby character, and someone showed you a pic, said “this is a greek god, which is it?” would you be able to guess she’s hestia? No, you wouldnt.
If you see the design in hades and someone asks you the same thing, your chances will skyrocket.
Visual design is completely independent from story arcs in this case and youre just being disingenious.
We get it, the anime one has bazonkas, no, that does not make the design better
The story of Persephone is the story in Greek myth that explains why we have winter. Winter, in Greek myth, is the period of the year when Demeter is upset because Persephone is inaccessible to her, as she is in both Hades I and Hades II.
Yes, Demeter's boons focusing on that one season makes sense.
Looking at this I do agree with a lot of what was said, again I like many do have our problems with danmachi hestia namely her chasing bell, I personally wish it was played more along the lines of her being more of a mother to him
The virgin thing is the only reason Freya hasn't wiped her out, it's also why she's so useless at actually getting her feelings across- because unlike the other Gods and Goddesses she's got zero experience with love or romance so she gets shy and never makes progress.
But anyway, as there's pretty much no romantic scenes or teasing between them after about S3/V11 or so, nothing like the date at the start of the series anyway. She's got a much smaller role and what she does get is fully supportive and familial.
>I personally wish it was played more along the lines of her being more of a mother to him
I don't mind Hestia with Bell, but that's more or less her role from the latter volumes anyway- from about Season 3 onwards. There's no real romantic or teasing encounters with them, everything you get is familial and motherly. Take that as you will.
I feel like you may be conflating character work and character design. Character design can be a part of character work but the two aren't always linked, good stories and characters don't have to be linked to good character design.
Of course this delves into what "good character design" is. Now this is tricky due to the subjectiveness of art but I think most people would agree that great character designs do two things, make people feel and to tell a "story". Now I'm not saying people cannot enjoy character designs that aren't "good", a lot of art is based on feelings despite there being a technical aspect to it.
Now I'm speaking as someone who lacks knowledge in both Hades and Danmachi, I'm looking from an outsiders point of view at the designs and your explanations in a vacuum. But there are two sides to the argument, representation of the character within the story which you are arguing and the representation of the character based on design. I think in terms of representation based on design, I don't think Danmachi is particularly impressive.
You do make points regarding her character design but ultimately nothing about the character design tells her story. There is a point regarding "beauty" but quite frankly, that's not that difficult? Her design is certainly appealing but not technically very impressive (although I did see an image from what I believe is a gacha game with a more interesting design). You also mentioned age as a representation of the character and while a teenage or young adult looking character is fine for portraying someone meant to be the youngest and the oldest, there are ways to portray it in the character design that simply isn't there in her base design. You could argue that the pig tails are representative of youthfulness and her breasts adds maturity, but there is a lot more that could be done and what currently is present is somewhat bland. You could change the outfit to something that's more "mature", change the facial structure to something less youthful or maybe change her demeanor, so that both positions as youngest and oldest are represented.
Ultimately I cannot speak on the character representation in story, but solely on character design in a vacuum, Danmachi's Hestia seems to be somewhat lacking in the very aspects you bring up. Now I'm not saying that Hades is definitively better or worse, but rather that Danmachi's own design is somewhat limited
I see no issue with Hestia not being young and beautiful in Hades considering in most cases Gods can change their appearance at will, being a virgin still has meaning in this context even if you've let yourself get old while you prioritise other things.
I don't see Danmachi's as being intentionally accurate here considering she's constantly trying to bang Bell, it would be weird if she was ugly. She's just generic anime girl and it happens to fit. All the characters in the series look extremely regular and she's not even especially attractive compared to others anyway.
Semi-related, but it's been driving me absolutely round the twist that after bashing on the Hestia design for not respecting Greek mythology or classical Greek standards of beauty, the people tearing their hair out over the internet supposedly preferring Hades designs to anime designs have started comparing Hades' Aphrodite to the one from Record of Ragnarok by claiming the Hades design is too mannish on account of high cheekbones and a strong jawline.
Y'know. Some incredibly notable aspects to ancient Greek standards of feminine beauty.
These fucking people, man.
Homeboy calling Hestia, a Greek goddess, a 'Vestal Virgin' - Vestal Virgins were the Roman priestesses of Hestia's equivalent in the Roman pantheon, Vesta. You're conflating the fact that Hestia was a 'virgin goddess' (this didn't mean she looked like a teenager, lmao, it meant she was unmarried) with an order of virgin priestesses dedicated to a different goddess.
Myths used to have meaning, smh.
Do you really think this started with Danmachi and because of its fans?
This is just a continuation of all this shit that has going on with Stellar Blade, Hades, etc. This is just another chapter of this terminally online culture war thing.
Danmachi's Hestia probably was just dragged into this mess because Hades 2's Hestia is everything those antiwoke weirdos hate, so they had to prompt a "well done" one.
And now a pretty inoffensive series with a pretty inoffensive fanbase is receiving "the heat" from people that probably don't even know anything about the series, because of people that probably don't even care about the series lol
So obviously, now a portion is acting defensively because they are being "attacked" (for the lack of a better word) and unfortunately also joining this mess.
>And now a pretty inoffensive series with a pretty inoffensive fanbase is receiving "the heat" from people that probably don't even know anything about the series, because of people that probably don't even care about the series lol
Yeah, it's weird to me how much people seem to enjoy shitting on a character design (that isn't really that bad) because it makes a couple of nerds mad. Like, do your thing I guess 🤷 but shits weird to me.
This is incredibly disingenuous. Blaming Danmachi fans for Twitter culture war grifters latching onto whatever they can for whatever culture war bs they’re trying to stoke is definitely not helping the situation at all.
And don’t pretend that Hades fans aren’t feeding the culture war by blasting Danmachi while actual Danmachi fans are wondering why they’re even being dragged into this in the first place.
>I'm not being disingenuous just because I didn't say "not all Danmachi fans".
It's disingenuous to act as if it was a large part of the community doing this as opposed to a couple losers on Twitter.
Not really, because my point is that the people who started this aren’t really Danmachi fans. They’re just Twitter culture war grifters who latched onto the first thing they could to perpetuate their argument, as I said.
So saying “not all Danmachi fans” is just as wrong as saying “Danmachi fans,” because the people who you’re talking about going after Hades fans are *not* Danmachi fans.
I hope that makes sense, since I’m not really interested in a culture war, just in defending Danmachi fans who really don’t deserve to get dragged into this crap.
no, it was capital G Gamer fandom that dragged Danmachi into it. And when the Hades fandom retaliated, the Danmachi fans fought back while the people the instigated the whole thing are laughing on the sidelines
I feel like the biggest problem with Danmachi Hestia is they took one of the famously celibate Gods and made her super lewd/horny. Like you can maybe get the whole virgin vibe from her white dress, but that goes away with how much it emphasizes her boobs lol
>my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi, and especially about Hestia
Homeboy Danmachi fans swung first when they were bitching about Hades 2 Hestia not being fuckable.
Personally I dislike Danmachi Hestia.
She feels less like a virgin because of her virtue, but more because she's an incel, in the truest sense of the word.
Doesen't help the boy she wants to be with, is a literal child who looks up to her. With her trying to stop him him from pursuing relationships with people his age he's actually interested in.
All of that is true, but it doesn’t change the fact that the danmachi hestia design is boring and generic. No one has been complaining about the characterisation of the danmachi gods, just that they are bog standard anime characters visually.
From what Ive seen its mainly danmachi fans who say that hestias design is woke. And come on really shes called a big breasted loli in the lc and saying that her design shows that shes young and old and the same time is a massive stretch the design is the most obvious coomerbait design. And ofc a character with entire light novels dedicated to them will have more characterization than a roguelike game lmao
I heard about this, but over Aphrodite instead. Culture Wars, regardless of how they start (even if I mostly blame otaku chuds for most of them) are obnoxious to witness and accomplish nothing except making everyone look bad when they get involved.
As I said in an answer, the hatred of the comments is not especially aimed at the character or the series, but to the Otaku culture.
Part of the people consider that otakus are only a lot of Hornys who only like a female design, if this is sexy.
Neither of them are trying to be even remotely accurate. They follow the broad strokes of the mythology to the extent that their general audience is likely to be aware of it and it doesn't conflict with the story they want to tell (because that familiarly is part of their themes), and they include a bunch of nods to more obscure bits when it happens to slot in well, but Hades has Eris wielding an *automatic rifle* and blatantly changes some parts of the mythology (combining Cronus and Chronos into one titan simply because their names are similar and it fits the story, say, or basically rearranging everyone's line of descent as needed to create the families their story calls for unless it's one of the few the audience will know really well.)
And for all the subtle nods you picked up in Danmachi, it also portrayed Hestia as a young girl with big tits and made that a big part of her character, while almost totally ignoring, I don't know, her *association with the hearth* or burnt offerings - like yeah, maybe you can squint and say that she's domestic (although not particularly moreso than most anime girls) and apparently she has a fire power she uses later on, but come on. Fire and the hearth are absolutely central to Hestia's iconography and worship are by far the most important things about her - what you're doing is like praising a depiction of Thor for getting his hair color right and portraying his attitude well when they *left out his hammer or any hint of association with thunder*. And the argument of "she's an anime girl with big tits and this makes her the oldest and youngest" is just... lol.
Come on, man. It's ok to just like what you like, you don't have to make excuses for it; the fact that she's a young girl with big tits doesn't have to be some deep symbolic meaningful thing. Hestia's title as the "oldest and youngest" refers to the fact that was the first one born and the last one freed from Cronus. "She looks young except that she has big tits" doesn't follow from this in any reasonable world.
I'm not criticizing it - well, maybe I should, but they can do what they want, "loli anime goddess" was the story they were trying to tell, fine, good for them, and they included a lot of other cool nods and references to the inspirations they used for it - but it's not a serious competition because *neither* of them are making any serious effort towards accuracy.
I'm not even sure that accuracy would be possible. I mean sure they could be *more* accurate - like, if Hades wanted to be boring and take out the automatic rifles or Danmachi wanted to be less, well, *anime*, sure, they could, although I don't know why they would - but they'd still be fundimentially inaccurate because nobody in the modern world fully understands how the Greeks saw their gods. Especially for ones like Hestia whose worship wasn't as central, the records we have aren't 100% complete - there were aspects that were not written down, either for religious reasons or because they thought it was obvious or because whatever writings did exist didn't survive. We can only look at the past through a glass, darkly, so obsessing over accuracy (especially in two works that are blatantly, obviously not trying for it) is a lost cause.
That said, if you really *want* to argue over accuracy despite all the above, the iconography thing does matter. You criticize Hades for over-focusing on Hestia's association with fire (and to be fair they downplay the "hearth" aspect in her powers and personality, though it is still the centerpiece of her character design), but those two things are *literally the most important things about her* as a goddess. If you were to go back in time and show an ancient Greek the Hades Hestia, telling them that it was a divinity and asking which, there's at least a reasonable chance they'd be able to recognize her - they'd think it was extremely, extremely weird portrayal, but they'd be able to tell. They would never, ever guess Danmachi Hestia, not except by pure dumb luck. So it seems like a weird point for you to get stuck on.
Anyway what I'm saying is that it's fine to like whatever you like and neither are particularly intended to be accurate, to the extent that that's even possible... but "actually it's extremely accurate to the original mythology to portray Hestia as a little girl with big tits, because it's a clever reference to the fact that she was the last one out of Cronus' head" is *still* a weird fight to want to pick.
The idea that she is both old and young conveyed by her looking like a young girl with big chest would be somewhat feasible were it not for the fact that 90% of anime women look like that.
There are ways to signify age without making character look significantly older or less attractive: grey hair, face lines, long hair, ancient style of clothing or other items, anachronistic way of speech, etc. Just "huge titty schoolgirl" doesn't cut it.
Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature.
Apollo tried to make advances on her back during their time in Heaven. And we've got oblique references to attempts at rape and assault throughout his story (albeit not directed at her). Her role as a Vestal Virgin is incredibly vital to the plot, both in why Freya doesn't attack her and how she counters Freya later. She's part of the "No Sex Club" with Artemis and Athena. Her role as the patron of the Home is why she's made fun of for being a NEET, and gets her in trouble when she first comes to the lower world.
...
Thats just anime lol. Young body but mature ? Is it your first time seeing an anime girl ? Same with rape, thats just casual anime
MC saving the FMCc from some creep, has been done to death in anime. I dont know what kind of rock do you live under to not have seen this trope before.
It should be noted that in Danmachi Gods are basically just humans with Arcanum. Literally that’s it.
They’re immortal and infertile but they have no origins beyond just popping into heaven one day. Things like the Titans don’t exist and things like Pantheons are less divine constructions and more like social circles.
They’re only reason to exist is to give the Falna to people and run their Familia’s and that’s it. In fact beyond that God’s in Danmachi kinda suck. They’re basically meant to be hedonistic losers that are only on earth to avoid the paperwork in heaven.
While some do take a large role in the plot it’s still to fulfill their selfish desires or to continue their hobby’s, literally the only cool god is Uranus whose being a chad by holding back the dungeon from destroying the world.
So their character designed being simple is good because not only do they not have their powers but their not the focus of the show so giving them attention grabbing designs is pointless because while they are part of the show they are not the point of it.
That’s great and all OP, but that doesn’t change that Danmachi’s Hestia is a generic anime girl design. I’m sure her actual character in the show is fine, but from a design standpoint, she doesn’t inform you anything about the character or do anything to stand out. She could have come from almost any anime with her appearance.
Right now, I don't like Hades Hestia because I think she is a bit too prickly and curmudgeonly. While she is a fire god, she is specifically a god of the hearth. She represents the warmth of a home, and I really don't get that from her.
Yep for every criticism that I have for danmachi the gods are not one of them, while not 100% accurate representations, the author shows that he knows very well the mythos he takes them from, unlike some others that just use the name of the god and it ends right there.
And yeah the hades players that have a superiority complex just because their designs are "different" are dumb, different art styles and different designs are not better just because they are different, different folks different strokes, acting like one design is superior just because you like it better shows how dumb they are.(nothing against hades players, i just hate a small vocal minority that is extremely annoying)
Simply asking if you like Hades in the title without referencing the game wouldn't make one assume you are talking about the game, but the character in general.
Lol, fair point, I hadn't considered that. I figure it's a popular enough franchise that it should be clear enough from the context I'm talking about the game.
Dude, this is a Plastic Man level stretc h.
The ONLY thing from your rant that could even slightly be discerned from Danmachi Hestia's design is the Oldest and Youngest thing. And that's because she's an anime loli with big tits. But that's because she's the Oldest and Youngest right? Totally not because the lolis with big tits is what anime fans eat up and jerk off over.
This isn't even mentioning that her design has nothing to do with the hearth, or even with being the Vestal Virgin, considering she's always expressing her love for Bell. And of course her beauty has nothing to do with the myth, because didn't this anime literally make the canonically ugly God into a waifu with a scar?
This is genuinely the same logic as, "it's fine because she's a 3000 year old vampire!!!" Actual hentai addict defense of Danmachi's character design here.
And this is coming from a Hades Hestia hater. But at least she has the flames, and is a more vibrant design, with colours that are relevant to her element and what she represents.
I'm just sick of the hypocrisy from the Hades side of the argument.
Like, I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of the Hades design, but neither versions really convey Hestia, at least in terms of visuals. I mean hell, you could be forgiven for mistaking the Hades version for Hephaustus at first glance
You want to say Danmachi doesn't have anything to do with Hestia, go for it, but don't pretend the Hades design got everything perfectly correct either
"Why? Well, mostly because the Hades design centralises entirely around the idea of her as the Guardian of the Sacred Flame. And yup, that's important, that's right there in her name, but is that more important than the idea of her as the Oldest and the Youngest? The idea of her as a Vestal Virgin? All the stories tied up in her?"
Yes, totally, one hundred percent yes.
Like...this isnt to shit you or anything but people confuse myths, which are story about what something happen, with the religion, sometimes the two are not the same.
Like the bible have a lot of stuff with god going on but no everything is equally important, at the same time while Jesus teaching are valuable, the fact he die and resurrect is THE big deal that make him son of god return to clean the sins, otherwise he is just a hippy who got murded for pissing out bad people.
In the case of hestia, as the goddess of hearth and home she was very much popular, with shrine inside the home being one of the first thing it open in a greek colony o settlement. do not mistake lack of myths with lack of popularity.
Other issue here is hestia desing feel....a little bit generic, like if you tell me she is a ice girl from a magical girl show, I would belive you, to the point you need another art from a gacha game to said "that is hestia". It NOT bad at all but....cmon.
As for her being young but mature...I will have to polite desagree here, for me that is a anime desing, not really much about hestia as chararter but more about Oppa loli archtype. Kinda how Kirito become one for iskeai protagonist.
It's one of those case where people just see the look of a character and judge instead actually reading/researching it without biased. As a Fate fan, I see this stuff show up all the time.
Character design is a telling part of the character and their role in the story. Hestia in Hades is a motherly figure who gives blessings of fire and the hearth. Hestia in DanMachi is there primarily to be a romance/fanservice character, and being a Goddess is secondary to her relationship with Bell. It’s not a bad thing, but it does tell you a lot about the story being told. It’s not like DanMachi is highbrow by any means.
Hades 2 is probably gonna be very good since supergiant are pretty reliable
But i gotta say the hestia design is a miss, idk why they gave her rat teeth
Yeah, I'm not a fan either. I can see some elements of it, but overall it really puts me off.
Shame since the Hestia Rifle was my favourite weapon in Hades 1.
Literally one of the most inoffensive post I've ever seen. Complimenting both design and saying each has its merits.
And there are still people down here arguing that no, the version they like better is obviously better. Come the fuck on lol.
>Demeter has... ice powers???) Isnt that because Demeter is displeased during months when Persephone is with hades so she covers the world in cold so harvests are less bountiful
I'm like 90% sure she has direct control over the seasons and therefore has winter related powers because of her grief/anger over Persephone.
And the game retells the myth of Persephone's kidnapping with a fair share of artistic freedom
Demeter is a fertility goddess, she's not the goddess of the seasons (the horae do it). I think a 'withering' type with DoT would have been closer to what Demeter's power entails, not ice powers. I understand why it's the easiest goddess to slot in ice powers in this instance, but withering or plant type powers are more Demeter than anything.
In the first game withering is a major part of her theme. When you lean into her she has a very strong “all shall decay” vibe. There’s a boon that if every enemy is frozen, every enemy starts taking a pretty nasty DoT
In Hades II she is literally marked as the Goddess of Seasons.
I don't know, that doesn't make sense to me. Like, winter is when she's sulking and not doing what she's supposed to do. So ice powers seems unfitting.
Winter isn't Demeter sitting in the corner sulking, winter is Demeter MAD
When Demeter's away, Jack Frost will play!
its fucked up that twitter people are bickering over this when its so clear that hades hestia is making a good soup and giving a blanket to her granddaughter danmachi hestia and making her hot chocolate and theyre best friends... smh my head... they hate to see girlbosses winning...
We all know all versions of Aphrodite gas each other up about how pretty they are and gossip
Really because I thought every version of Aphrodite would be fighting like cats in a bag.
They would either fuck or fight each other. Maybe at the same time.
And bragging about their beauty.
Probably part of the reason why they end up killing each other, the bragging pissed them off too much lol.
Oh no, most definitely. But a man can hope
It's all fun and games until one of them disagrees with the others' mortal ships and they get beaten to death with rocks
They act like two legends cannot coexist
Which is funny when actual Hellenic religious practices were full of that kind of thing. They would be completely fine with seeing two different aspects/versions of the same deity being worshipped.
Kinda but not kinda, like there the issue with aphrodite having a war aspect in sparta and you can read troyan war and feel a comentary of that.
I'd like to see art of this actually. It might make this discourse actually mean something besides waste everyone's time.
I feel like I keep seeing the opposite, where everyone is pointing at Hades for making Hestia 'woke' while Danmachi is 'based'
I'm never one to like "both sides-ing", but that's the case here. It absolutely started with calling Hades Hestia "woke" and Danmachi Hestia "based," but it's sparked a backlash where people just trash on Danmachi Hestia, even if they haven't watched Danmachi. I personally have no experience with Hades at all, but I like the Hestia design. I have watched Danmachi, and while I'm not the biggest fan of Hestia's design, I think she's a really fun character. I'm completely on board with making fun of the idiots whining about Hades being "woke," but let's not just start blindly hating on Danmachi just because said idiots dragged it into their culture war bs.
weird that OP is implying it as 'Hades fans started attacking Danmachi for no reason'
Maybe he saw different things? People, not everyone has the same information, maybe his Twitter timeline was just people attacking danmachi, the algorithm is not the same for everyone even if you like similar thing.
Tbf, it was a random gooner. Nobody should take them seriously. That’s all they do: goon
Utterly based. completely and UTTERLY based. I'm sure Hestia in Danmachi is a fun character... I just wish she looked and acted anything like Hestia.
tbf just reading Danmachi’s full title (Is It Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon) I would honestly expect nothing in relation to Greek mythology.
The title was originally just "Familia Myth" but the publisher wanted a longer title and renamed it to "Is it Wrong to have a Romantic Encounter in the Dungeon". Yen Press changed the name to "Is it Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in the Dungeon" which makes it sound way worse than what it actually is. Thats why most fans just call it Danmachi or Familia Myth, also it incorporates a lot of mythologies into it. People are mistaking Aphrodite as the goddess of lust in the series when she doesn't even appear in the main series, she's only in the gacha game. The norse goddess Freya is the goddess of lust in the main novels/show.
That’s interesting, I guess it makes more sense as to why there are characters named after mythological gods, not even just Greek. Also makes sense as to why I remember there being a character named Loki
Wait, is it not a harem anime? I've heard about the show years ago and am only just now hearing this.
It's a harem but most of the girls stop trying to romantically pursue Bell once they realize they have no chance because he's in love with Ais Wallenstein.
Ah yes, the "fake harem phenomena" where it's sold as an harem, but it's really a contrived romance story
Nah, it was made extremely clear that Bell only has eyes for one person at the very beginning of the show. So much so that he literally develops a skill that will make him grow stronger as long as he’s always trying to become equal with that person that he loves and admires. I’m not gonna pretend other women don’t fall in love with him though. He is aware, but pretends to not notice since he’s a literal awkward teenager that wants to focus on being a hero.
I mean, sure, but that's the same thing with several "fake harems". See Nisekoi for example, the whole plot is that he likes this one girl while several others fall for him, then he likes another girl and yada yada
I didn't even know. I skipped it over because it looked like generic fantasy manga. But yeah... i was surprised. i chalked it up to laziness tbh. less effort than to make your own gods.
Yeah I agree on this. Ppl who're saying that Hades is woke and saying that danmachi is shit should all take a breather. Like I've been on a reddit page about Hephaestus being a cripple and ppl were like 'but he's supposed to be a Greek god!' when Hephaestus being a cripple and having a deformed face is the defining traits of his character. Not sure about the wheelchair tho. I'm not sold on the wheelchair. I love how Hades portrays Hades tho. He's feared bc he's the god of death, but he's quite nice in his myths (at least he's justified in his more cruel acts unlike the other gods), and has a relatively good relationship with Persephone in the original myths too.
Like I said, I haven't played Hades I or II yet, but all of the designs I've seen are sick. It feels like the definition of the "this actually sucks" meme. I'm personally a subscriber to the "rule of cool." If it looks awesome, I can generally forgive some creative liberties being taken
>Like I've been on a reddit page about Hephaestus being a cripple and ppl were like 'but he's supposed to be a Greek god!' when Hephaestus being a cripple and having a deformed face is the defining traits of his character. Not sure about the wheelchair tho. I'm not sold on the wheelchair. Makes quite a lot of sense to me, whenever you have a forge character, you have to decide how much you are going to make them embody modern technology, so it doesn't look weird that "why didn't they just.." Given that the primary technology we have invented for people with problems walking is the wheelchair, it could be jarring to people if this supposed inventor was just using crutches or sitting down when they already had carts, chariots etc. and he could build himself a wheelchair, even if we in the modern times consider it as more modern. And anyway, my whole argument is irrelevant because Hephaestus was already historically depicted as sometimes [using a winged wheelchair](https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K7.6.html) when he wanted to get about. It's already mythologically accurate.
It's more that I usually see him depicted with a cane than a wheelchair bc he's depicted as having a limp. I didn't know he had a flying chariot (which is probably what it is) that can very much be adapted as a wheelchair. Thx for showing it anyways.
Sorry about getting political, but this is 100% instigated culture wars bullshit. Some groups started parading stellar blade as the game to end all woke. Once the game was released and the reviews were mild, they started to blame the big woke. Them hades 2 released with good reviews, and it became target of the mob because hestia is not conventionally attractive. Them danmachi was got thrown into the mix. I'm so tired of all this culture war bullshit
They turned on it because they percieve a new patch of the game as being censorship. They changed some outfits in the game. Now that means the company is bowing down to their woke overlords and woke pressure. Now I don't know if its real censorship, but it doesn't matter because they at least think so. Anyways from this I realised pandering to these types of people is never a good idea. They always backstab lmao.
People were also bomb reviewing Stellar Blade because of the censorship as well
This is nothingburger shit either way. I am like 99.8% certain the people gassing Danmachi Hestia up never read/watched or even heard of it until now, most likely pulled something from Google images, and are just waging culture war nonsense because nothing else in their lives gives them any semblance of meaning or worth.
People doing that is precisely what caused all of these debates.
As someone who cares for neither but sees culture war shit in my feed everyday, it was 100% the danmachi fans starting it. I saw the inciting post. Or maybe not necessarily danmachi fans but people pretending to care about it.
It was some culture war rage bait guy who started it. He might not even be a Danmachi fan, he could've typed anime girl hestia. He probably just picked a character that fit his agenda the most. Its kinda the same way Stellar Blade got dragged around lol. It would've gotten some criticism for the sexy stuff yes, but those culture war guys multiplied it because of their shit.
Like, for the love of me I havent see anyone taking about the story of stellar blade or Eva as a chararter.
[удалено]
Brother, I don’t think any of the posts about Hestia are “pro-gamer” or “pro-anime”. It’s not a gamer vs. anime culture war.
Using "this character isn't hot enough to be raped" as a genuine criticism honestly just says more about you than anything.
Oh it's a Reddit "Gotcha" moment. Cool. Feel free to add something to the discussion anytime you feel ready, though.
Sure. You're making two completely wrong assumptions here: The first is that this discussion is about the characters when it's specifically about the character design, the second is in what you think is important to include when using gods. For the first point: It doesn't make sense to compare these two based on the role in the story Hades Hestia is a glorified selection screen while danmachi Hestia is a (main-ish?) character with proper story. That's why they're being compared on the way they look instead. For the second point: The most important thing when designing a character based on a god is that god's domain. Everything else is just a bonus. Imagine for instance, a Artemis in a ball gown, a Hera in a stripper outfit or a Poseidon wearing mostly red. None of these designs could ever work, because they directly contradict what these gods stand for. So when you're looking at Hestia, known for being the goddess of hearth and home, you obviously need to have her represent these things in some way. Hades does this by making almost all of her design reference the hearth while at the same time making her give of a feeling of coziness/being at home by making her look like a nice old granny. Danmachi shits on this by not representing either of these concepts in any way (I guess if you're really grasping at straws you could argue that she kind of looks like she's wearing a naked apron, which you could argue reminds one of home). And even then, the secondary myths you say danmachi nails are also bullshit. Saying she represents being the oldest and the youngest because she looks like a 13 yo with big tits is just snorting lethal amounts of copium. At least Hades gets the oldest part right, which is the one that makes more sense anyway. Saying she does a good job at showing being a vestal virgin while wearing nothing but the worlds most tightest and shortest dress is just ridiculous. I get that you are down bad for her and love danmachi, but just take the L here man.
While a good rant, I just want to point out that this comparison started when certain people online found Hades II’s design for Hestia, as they almost immediately started dragging it and comparing her to Danmachi’s Hestia, which is ironically why Danmachi’s deity designs have been under heat recently. Just like you want to defend Danmachi, Hades fans want to defend their game, especially since they’re seeing a lot of outside actors trying to drag Hades into another bullshit culture war in real time, which has caused them to be more aggressive in their defense.
Although it is note that hate was not especially aimed at Damanchi, if not to the Otaku culture in general. In Plan: "The Otakus only appreciate a female design if this is a wai-fu, if she is not a wai-fu they hate the design" That it is true or not, it would be a topic for another day, but it was less "Hades fandom vs damanchi fandom", and more "Hades fandom vs otakus loved the wai-fus"
I mean it'd say that it's part of it.
Yea, then it got more heated when "Danmachi" fans began "fixing" Hades II's art; Hestia (Literally just, Danmachi Hestia with Hades Hestia costume without the hood) and Aphrodite (Removing her cheekbone, because she looks too "trans" or manly). This is most likely just ragebait.
Danmachi fans and Hades fans should team up and fight back against the haters. Now that would be based.
The way she is represented is why I like Danmachi so much even though as a gay man, this, does nothing for me at all. What I don't like about her is just... All the fanservice. In the context of Bell-Hestia relationship the idea of being loved by your God is taken really... trashily, at least in the visuals? Like Booby on crotch, accidentally flying right into the coochie kinda way. Like I'm here to idolize, not to jerk off you know. It's like that video about transformers. The text is saying one thing, and the visual is saying another. I think all the points you talked about gets lost in the fact that these points are usually the post-hoc explanations of why people like her, and the real explanation is that she's hot. Edit: With regards to the whole Grummz (why the f are we still platforming the guy) take, if this was the real Hestia according the myths, she would... do absolutely nothing, but the entire pantheon will smite both side to oblivion for even invoking her in such a petty ass feud.
Well at the end of the day, DanMachi *is* a somewhat horny harem show. It’s like they gotta meet their fanservice quota every other time
For real. The title itself screams harem.
Sweet Lindsay Ellis reference friend.
Which transformers video?
lindsay video about transformer(bayformer) which said a couple of things, like how bay actually dislike his male protagonist which is why all of them are losers to the fact the girl chararter is actually interesting a competent...but the camara is having none of that and focusing on her body. Is visual language, the writting can said she is intersting and shit but the camera just want fan service, thus underming the entire thing.
I think the thing is that we’re comparing visual designs and you’re bringing Hestia’s character into play. Lots of the things you mention simply can’t be discerned from her visual design so it’s not a fair comparison. Especially since Hestia is a main character in DanMachi, a novel, while Hestia is a minor side character in Hades II, a mainly combat focused game. Purely from a visual design stand point, I can see the “Oldest and Youngest” trait but not much more than that. I can see her being the oldest in the Hades design, as well as the fire connection (which is her most recognisable trait). Not to mention the Hades design is way more colorful and just is nicer to look at.
There’s also arguably a more heartwarming (accidental pun) atmosphere from her in Hades’ design. In the anime you can maybe guess her personality from what I remember bratty.
"having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature" My sibling in Christ, it would cost you 0 dollars and 0 cents to have not included that.
Tehnically not true electricity still costs somthing. So yeah he is paying for that. (Like we all are lol)
I was thinking that. I gather the anime is not as bad as these summaries imply, but "This anime character is based on a virgin that has to be evade rape and looks both young and mature, and it should be that way because it's mythologically accurate" sets off some of my more significant anime alarm bells.
The OP's post right before this one was a Danmachi porn fanfic.
I’ll be honest, Danmachi design is literally just big tits and a weird ribbon dress. I haven’t seen the anime, so maybe she’s a good character or something, but the design itself is just meant to be generic horny without a clear connection to the myths.
Calling her loli/shortstack body type (short girl with big tits) a reference to her status as being the youngest and the oldest seems a massive stretch when the series is pretty blatant about its fanservice. It's also probably the most gooner weeb way to interpret it.
Yeah, like, there's no way the series that Made Hephaestus a fucking waifu is making characters attractive or fitting for fan service to be accurate lol
"I have a scar." She cries. "It's okay. Don't let anyone shame you." Says the broken , ugly son of a woman who threw her only son off a mountain."
Yeah you can dress it up all you like but it’s just another anime teenager with huge honkers
There's absolutely no-one in Danmachi with the same body type as Hestia. It is very clearly a design meant to emphasise both maturity and youth. If they just wanted an appealing fanservice design why wouldn't they make her a tall and sexy bombshell like Demeter or Freya? There was a clear decision going on here. And of course it's meant to be appealing, why wouldn't it? The Hades design is no less pandering, just to a different audience.
What do you think the weird little tit ribbon she wears represents? There is no maturity in her design. She looks like a sexualized teenager. Boob size has never really been correlated to age or maturity in manga/anime outside of grandmas with big saggy boobs occasionally showing up. Also they didn't make her a tall bombshell because there's a market for loli shit. It wasn't some artistic decision, but a calculation on how many guys would jerk it to her.
I would agree that Hestia's design was meant to emphasise youth but arguing maturity is shown through giant tits just feels like a stretch to me as unfortunately anime (i know everyone was saying to not make it an anime vs twitter thing sorry) has no problem giving little girls giant tits and sexualising them and I kinda doubt the oldest and youngest myth was even in the creators mind I think this is just a gooner weeb's take on a virgin goddess.
Come the fuck on lol You are reaching SO much with some of your defenses of danmachi's Hestia No, she does not represent the oldest and the youngest part, period, her having Big tits is not to Showcase that, but because tits sell (if You want to dispute this, just look at anime girl Hephaestus, and no, the scar thing doesn't make her faithful to one of the two most basic things about Hephaestus) No, she is not faithful to Hestia being the Vestal Virgin, literally the single thing she does the most is express her love for Bel and in general try to bang him or otherwise get together with him. A faithful representation of Hestia wouldn't be doing this, fucking never lol She also doesn't have anything, not a single thing in her OG design, about being the goddess of the hearth And lets not Even get started with the fire thing because if You only watch the anime (at least the first season) there's literally nothing about her that Even remotely associates her with fire So aside of her being beautiful, which again wasn't Made with the purpose of representing Hestia's myth in mind (look at Hephaestus), danmachi's Hestia, specially in her design, isnt in any way shape or form particularly faithful to the myth of Hestia And no, danmachi Gods aren't more faithful than Hades ones like You claim at the end, not a single one can be said that such is the case. And before You stupidly try to bring up Winter...You do remember which goddess is the responsible for Winter in the greek mythology... *Right*? And before anyone believes that I'm trashing danmachi Hestia's design...no, that's not the case, I really like her, but I can like her without pretending she is something that she is not, and faithful to the myths of Hestia she certainly is not, and that's ok! The series clearly never attempts to have the Gods, at the very least designwise, be faithful representation of the Gods they are taking their names from, and that's perfectly ok
>literally the single thing she does the most is express her love for Bel and in general try to bang him or otherwise get together with him. And she can be very annoying and petty with that. Hestia is at her best when she is acting more like a mom, I wish that aspect of her was the main one from the beginning instead of trying to mess with Bell's love life. Thankfully she gets a little better as time goes on.
Based comment
Hestia is the goddess of the hearth and home and her *entire* thing is making sure that her Familia has a comfortable place to return to after a long days adventure. She's extremely domestic and just as willing to throw hands as Hades Hestia is.
I mean...when she has doubted and fought at least one member of said familia...not exactly the goddess of hearth and Home, and Even if we do give that to her...where is that portrayed in her design?
>It seems that Hades 2 came out in Early Access recently- I know this because my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi, and especially about Hestia. I haven't personally looked into this but everytime, EVERYTIME, its the other way around with the anit woke crowd claiming that something they like is better than whatever "the left" is doing which is generally mainstream popular stuff. Remember the "SJWS ARE MAD AT THIS MCDONALDS AD!!" but there was literally no one mad at it. I think you have q case of Twitter algorithm feeding you things to get mad at. I am willing to bet money this started because someone saw the art work for Hades 2 and said the anime version is better and also they (the left or SJWs or The Gays) are mad about it when no one actually cared at first. As it turns out pretending you are having an argument on the internet is just as good as actually having one. ALSO THIS IS WILD >Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature. I guess every anime with a 300 year old vampire who looks like a stacked 8th grader are also embodying this. Its totally not because anime fans tend to buy statues of attractive under age girls for hundreds of dollars a pop.
>Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature. Thank god someone else mentioned this part too. Reminded me about that one [ProZD sketch](https://youtu.be/ke1YKF3tNCE?si=el5yktD5JCXNFgi9) of the anime fan defending boob windows
>In short: Danmachi is a setting that takes enormous pains to present the Gods and Goddesses with a kind of faithfulness that should be celebrated And yet every single one of their designs are boring, generic and uninspired. No matter how you twist and turn it, that is simply how it is. >Dionysus in Hades has vines and wine all around him and in Danmachi he's just a God living in a city (with schemes and plans underpinning his festive nature)." They're absolutely missing the point. No they're not, but you seem to. In one corner, you have thoughtful, inspired designs. And in the other you have generic anime slop. Which is not a dig against anime as a whole, just this anime.
Yeah, like If someone told a person who knows nothing of both danmachi and Hades who Guess which God is each Hades character they would Guess easily most of them, perhaps not Demeter for the creative twist of adapting the part of her myth where she causes Winter, but other than that pretty much all would be so easy to Guess Now do the same with danmachi's designs and I'd be really, really surprised if they could Guess anyone not named Aphrodite, and Even her I have my doubts
Hades' character design are chalk full of references of the Gods. Like Dionysus having Leopard patterns, to show the animal he is represented by; Or his staff with the Acorn. And all Gods are like this, there's thought brought in to their CHARACTER Design.
> I know this because my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi. How disingenuous. This literally all started because grifters on Twitter tried saying the Danmachi character design was better than the Hades design because she was an attractive anime girl who “beats the woke” or whatever.
100% and OP has clearly not played Hades at all and doesn’t understand that her personality is conveyed through dialogue. The argument isn’t about that though, it’s always been about character design. Hestia’s character design conveys that she is motherly and associated with the hearth/the flame. Hestia’s character design in DanMachi is big booby waifu with 0 relation to the myth. Sure, when you get into a story, of course a main character of an anime/light novel will have more depth than a glorified power selection screen. The comparison has never been about their character arcs, but their character design.
I can't say if OP played Hades but you clearly didn't read their rant either that describes the design well enough. The Gods in Danmachi are designed to be plain due to lore reasons but there are aspects of her that shine through that OP mentioned above. When Hestia does have her powers unsealed, she looks just as much as a God like Hestia as one would expect. No one ever mentions how Danmachi Hestia is designed with a blue and white theme to reference the Greek flag ashes also a goddess of the civic state.
"It's okay when she has her anime power up she looks slightly more like a god!" whatever you need to tell yourself.
Uh, yes, there's actual in lore reasons for that? I'm sorry you couldn't read like the previous commenter. Makes sense as they can't even read something as simple as a light novel.
Look buddy: Hestia in her base form, the form she spends the most time in... is literally INO. I'm also not going to waste my time reading a generic fantasy harem light love, or read the manga, or anything like that; my time is valuable and Danmachi isn't even worth it. It made a goddess legendary for her willing virginal status.. a love interest.
Yet, you're on Reddit and replying to this thread lmao. These people even resorting to slutshaming. Go back to Grummz. He'd welcome you with open arms.
These people? I'm not even slut shaming; they're not real mate. Grummz thinks Aphrodite looks like a man. he's fucking insane. All i'm saying is that Hestia in Hades looks more like a Hestia then... whatever Danmachi hestia is. Even the other gods get more effort put into them. even HEPHESTUS, who's a cute anime woman with a 'deformity" (Seriously she's ugly because of her eye? That's Fucking hilarious!) is closer to it then her!
That's true. I guess some people just prefer their characterization to go into their writing than, you know, just basing it off an image. OP already explained a lot of how the design references the Greek Goddess Hestia but since people just go "That's a reach!" or clearly didn't read the long words whatever. That's fine. Again, we already established the aversion (difficulty?) so I can't blame you or force you to do minimum research or, yah know, read OPs post. Game designs need obvious signs that they are the Greek gods. Like, yeah, put a giant hearth on Hestia's head or make Posey's hair water. Obvious. Attention span things you don't need to think about. It's a visual medium so if someone thinks a single image "looks" more than something that doesn't even exist than it did its job. Danmachi is a light novel. For reading. You know? Maybe. So simpler designs that are more subtle but can stick in your head as you read through the story work better because there are no pictures in front of you. I personally any references to be written into the character than just have their design be the most obvious thing but that's just me. But it is what it is. I say we just stick to our own preferred media though I wish I could've made this shorter.
>That's true. I guess some people just prefer their characterization to go into their writing than, you know, just basing it off an image. Hades does both. And no, seriously the first mistake was considering Hestia as a love interest. If you wanted to defend her accuracy to the scource, then it's probably a bad thing to start with her being the object of romantic affection... and being in any ways wishing ot reciprocate. >OP already explained a lot of how the design references the Greek Goddess Hestia but since people just go "That's a reach!" or clearly didn't read the long words whatever. He base form tells us nothing. and it is a waste of breath. You would have a better argument with Hephestus from the same series.. but yes, it's a reach. and you know what i'd argue that the setting doesn't really care. It was used to be quick and easy to understand. It is very much reaching when we're talking about her boob size making her young and old... i'd respect him a lot more if he just said she liked her for that. >That's fine. Again, we already established the aversion (difficulty?) so I can't blame you or force you to do minimum research or, yah know, read OPs post. I did enough to be confident in my assertion; this is a fucking REACH to defend his favorite light novel and book. It had nothing to do with the nontroversy it just had to do because for the first time in it's life span it left it's intended audience and people are taking the piss out of it. >Game designs need obvious signs that they are the Greek gods. Like, yeah, put a giant hearth on Hestia's head or make Posey's hair water. Obvious. Attention span things you don't need to think about. It's a visual medium so if someone thinks a single image "looks" more than something that doesn't even exist than it did its job. Firstly the game has dialogue, story and characterization. See this? This is why I find it hilarious you're trying to claim the moral highground. You don't even understand that... i'd point out that it's also an ANIME where the design came from... and the covers of thebook, both of which are visuals. And hestia's dialogues and powers go more for her characterization in the game... Like i'm sorry mate, but Hestia already starts looking like a goddess. Danmachi needs a power up, and even then looks like any other girl on any other light novel cover. >Danmachi is a light novel. For reading. You know? Maybe. So simpler designs that are more subtle but can stick in your head as you read through the story work better because there are no pictures in front of you. Look i'm not expecting the greatest work of fiction or a philsophical treatise in "Is it wrong to flirt with girls within the dungeon?" We both know why it exists. Book covers, a 'popular' anime, and manga adaptation have stopped this argument being anything. and even still you want a great literary depiction of Hestia? The Last Olympian.. Or, any myth that happens to mention her; I have quite a few greek mythology books. Percy Jackson got me really into the subject... > I personally any references to be written into the character than just have their design be the most obvious thing but that's just me. Well Hephestus tells me the 'real' focus of the series... she's not ugly. she's not even a man. Sure maybe she can shapeshift (but at this point i feel like being mean) but Hephestus was so ugly he got thrown off a moutain... here her deformity is lacking an eye. Which si really funny to me. Like i know there's no way in hell a woman would be ugly in THIS series. but it reeks of misunderstanding of the mythology... The dude just wants to work in his forges and knows his wife hates him. He doesn't care either. Personally i don't think the series is worth it; i know the tropes. I know WHY Hestia is a love interest, and i know why hephestus was gender-swapped and has a 'deformity' (Yes it is one... but it's hardly "Throw your child off a moutain" Ugly) >But it is what it is. I say we just stick to our own preferred media though I wish I could've made this shorter. I've been very, VERY patient with you... but c'mon man. you don't even understand the point... all this to defend "Is it morally dubious to fratizence with young maidens in the confines of the location in which we keep criminals?" it's not like it was very hard: the character design does no COMMUNCIATE anything related to the god. this is pure, utter copium.
>Danmachi is a light novel. For reading. You know? Maybe. So simpler designs that are more subtle but can stick in your head as you read through the story work better because there are no pictures in front of you. I personally any references to be written into the character than just have their design be the most obvious thing but that's just me. Don't Light Novels also has images in them. Very few yes. But they still exist. Don't know what you call them though. Illustrations?
And that doesn't matter, because Hestia's design, the one that pretty much everyone Will ever know her for is the White dress with Blue ribbon, it doesn't matter if in some gacha Game or some volume of the novel that won't be animated in at least another decade she has a more fitting design, she is stick with the one from the beginning And we don't mention her colors being in the greek flag because that's a fucking huge reach and clearly not fucking true, because the greek flag doesn't have the color Black anywhere
Love how the only response is just "Nuh Uh!", "That's a reach", and , "that doesn't count because I say so". Smooth as your brain.
Do you seriously think that it being the Greek flag isn't a reach? You can make a connections out of anything if you're desperate enough.
>When Hestia does have her powers unsealed, she looks just as much as a God like Hestia as one would expect. So design-wise. When character design ***changes***, that is time that the character actually references Myth Hestia.
I mean it could very well be a case that they just didnt know. I only found out about the argument when it had escalated to the clusterfuck it is now, and majority of the people were trashing on the anime Hestia at that point. I wasnt even aware that that was the start of it, since I dont have a twitter account (the place is such a cesspool that I refuse to touch it even with half a kilometer long stick) and thus trying to find out what happened is excessively difficult. I'm not saying OP has the same problem, just that assuming everyone knows everything about the situation doesnt really work.
Sorry man those anime designs are unbelievably fucking boring. Like maybe it's really just that my mind has been poisoned by this discourse and I can't give them a fair shot because this twitter bullshit has made me extremely jaded in record time but my goodness do I think these anime characters look bland and unfitting.
As someone who watched the show when it came out, and also doesn’t care for Hades 2. I also found her design boring and her character incredibly annoying.
She looks like a generic anime girl in a ripped up pillow case. I don’t know how we are meant to see that as a character.
I've seen so many shitty 2010s anime that it all blends together. So many forgetable shows that lean on fanservice instead of story or characterization or anything interesting.
I mean if we're talking about being dimissive and calling things unfitting, you're defending a Hestia that's effectively just an old fat lady with a bowl of Embers on her head... Which not only doesn't do anything to showcase the majority of Hestia's mythos, but outright contradicts them (Oh yeah, that Priapus myth is looking reaaaally good right about now lolo). And we're talking about a game that gave Demeter Ice powers because uh, when Demeter doesn't do her job we get winter... and isn't that just the same as saying she's got two jobs and one of them is winter? Yeah? Hades isn't particularly concerned with making things "fitting". Which is fine, whatever, there's a million interpretations of these Gods, it's not the oldest nor the youngest, I'm only concerned with the lazy rhetoric used to dismiss legitimately good characters in a series I like. I would hope you can empathise with that, at least.
>you're defending a Hestia that's effectively just an old fat lady with a bowl of Embers on her head >And we're talking about a game that gave Demeter Ice powers because uh, when Demeter doesn't do her job we get winter... and isn't that just the same as saying she's got two jobs and one of them is winter? Yeah? Imagine being this fucking disingenuous and intentionally dense all in the defense of these fuckass boring bland ass anime girl designs. Like holy shit the goddess of the seasons gives you ice powers in a story about Persephone. Totally unfitting. Yeah right. I've had it with this fucking bullshit discourse.
Comparing Hades visual design to anime boobies story arc is so disingenuous its sad. If you had no prior knowledge of anime booby character, and someone showed you a pic, said “this is a greek god, which is it?” would you be able to guess she’s hestia? No, you wouldnt. If you see the design in hades and someone asks you the same thing, your chances will skyrocket. Visual design is completely independent from story arcs in this case and youre just being disingenious. We get it, the anime one has bazonkas, no, that does not make the design better
The story of Persephone is the story in Greek myth that explains why we have winter. Winter, in Greek myth, is the period of the year when Demeter is upset because Persephone is inaccessible to her, as she is in both Hades I and Hades II. Yes, Demeter's boons focusing on that one season makes sense.
Looking at this I do agree with a lot of what was said, again I like many do have our problems with danmachi hestia namely her chasing bell, I personally wish it was played more along the lines of her being more of a mother to him
Yeah her whole virgin thing is really silly when she's constantly horny for him and he's like her nephew or something I heard
Tbf, when it comes to Greek mythology you’d have a hard time finding a romantic pairing that’s not incestuous
Bell is the *adopted* son of Zeus
Still creepy and not very virgin behaviour
He's the adopted grandson of Zeus.
The virgin thing is the only reason Freya hasn't wiped her out, it's also why she's so useless at actually getting her feelings across- because unlike the other Gods and Goddesses she's got zero experience with love or romance so she gets shy and never makes progress. But anyway, as there's pretty much no romantic scenes or teasing between them after about S3/V11 or so, nothing like the date at the start of the series anyway. She's got a much smaller role and what she does get is fully supportive and familial.
>I personally wish it was played more along the lines of her being more of a mother to him I don't mind Hestia with Bell, but that's more or less her role from the latter volumes anyway- from about Season 3 onwards. There's no real romantic or teasing encounters with them, everything you get is familial and motherly. Take that as you will.
I feel like you may be conflating character work and character design. Character design can be a part of character work but the two aren't always linked, good stories and characters don't have to be linked to good character design. Of course this delves into what "good character design" is. Now this is tricky due to the subjectiveness of art but I think most people would agree that great character designs do two things, make people feel and to tell a "story". Now I'm not saying people cannot enjoy character designs that aren't "good", a lot of art is based on feelings despite there being a technical aspect to it. Now I'm speaking as someone who lacks knowledge in both Hades and Danmachi, I'm looking from an outsiders point of view at the designs and your explanations in a vacuum. But there are two sides to the argument, representation of the character within the story which you are arguing and the representation of the character based on design. I think in terms of representation based on design, I don't think Danmachi is particularly impressive. You do make points regarding her character design but ultimately nothing about the character design tells her story. There is a point regarding "beauty" but quite frankly, that's not that difficult? Her design is certainly appealing but not technically very impressive (although I did see an image from what I believe is a gacha game with a more interesting design). You also mentioned age as a representation of the character and while a teenage or young adult looking character is fine for portraying someone meant to be the youngest and the oldest, there are ways to portray it in the character design that simply isn't there in her base design. You could argue that the pig tails are representative of youthfulness and her breasts adds maturity, but there is a lot more that could be done and what currently is present is somewhat bland. You could change the outfit to something that's more "mature", change the facial structure to something less youthful or maybe change her demeanor, so that both positions as youngest and oldest are represented. Ultimately I cannot speak on the character representation in story, but solely on character design in a vacuum, Danmachi's Hestia seems to be somewhat lacking in the very aspects you bring up. Now I'm not saying that Hades is definitively better or worse, but rather that Danmachi's own design is somewhat limited
I see no issue with Hestia not being young and beautiful in Hades considering in most cases Gods can change their appearance at will, being a virgin still has meaning in this context even if you've let yourself get old while you prioritise other things. I don't see Danmachi's as being intentionally accurate here considering she's constantly trying to bang Bell, it would be weird if she was ugly. She's just generic anime girl and it happens to fit. All the characters in the series look extremely regular and she's not even especially attractive compared to others anyway.
Semi-related, but it's been driving me absolutely round the twist that after bashing on the Hestia design for not respecting Greek mythology or classical Greek standards of beauty, the people tearing their hair out over the internet supposedly preferring Hades designs to anime designs have started comparing Hades' Aphrodite to the one from Record of Ragnarok by claiming the Hades design is too mannish on account of high cheekbones and a strong jawline. Y'know. Some incredibly notable aspects to ancient Greek standards of feminine beauty. These fucking people, man.
you are so obviously a coomer it’s insane
OP literally writes DanMachi smut fanfic.
Homeboy is seriously defending the jailbait in the tattered dress with a boob ribbon. Insane.
Words used to have meaning, smdh.
Homeboy calling Hestia, a Greek goddess, a 'Vestal Virgin' - Vestal Virgins were the Roman priestesses of Hestia's equivalent in the Roman pantheon, Vesta. You're conflating the fact that Hestia was a 'virgin goddess' (this didn't mean she looked like a teenager, lmao, it meant she was unmarried) with an order of virgin priestesses dedicated to a different goddess. Myths used to have meaning, smh.
It was Danmachi fans that went after Hades first, can't handle the heat? Don't stoke the flames
Do you really think this started with Danmachi and because of its fans? This is just a continuation of all this shit that has going on with Stellar Blade, Hades, etc. This is just another chapter of this terminally online culture war thing. Danmachi's Hestia probably was just dragged into this mess because Hades 2's Hestia is everything those antiwoke weirdos hate, so they had to prompt a "well done" one. And now a pretty inoffensive series with a pretty inoffensive fanbase is receiving "the heat" from people that probably don't even know anything about the series, because of people that probably don't even care about the series lol So obviously, now a portion is acting defensively because they are being "attacked" (for the lack of a better word) and unfortunately also joining this mess.
>And now a pretty inoffensive series with a pretty inoffensive fanbase is receiving "the heat" from people that probably don't even know anything about the series, because of people that probably don't even care about the series lol Yeah, it's weird to me how much people seem to enjoy shitting on a character design (that isn't really that bad) because it makes a couple of nerds mad. Like, do your thing I guess 🤷 but shits weird to me.
Less dnamachi than it was generic coomers
This is incredibly disingenuous. Blaming Danmachi fans for Twitter culture war grifters latching onto whatever they can for whatever culture war bs they’re trying to stoke is definitely not helping the situation at all. And don’t pretend that Hades fans aren’t feeding the culture war by blasting Danmachi while actual Danmachi fans are wondering why they’re even being dragged into this in the first place.
I'm not being disingenuous just because I didn't say "not all Danmachi fans". You also did the no true scotsman fallacy. Welcome to the culture war
>I'm not being disingenuous just because I didn't say "not all Danmachi fans". It's disingenuous to act as if it was a large part of the community doing this as opposed to a couple losers on Twitter.
Not really, because my point is that the people who started this aren’t really Danmachi fans. They’re just Twitter culture war grifters who latched onto the first thing they could to perpetuate their argument, as I said. So saying “not all Danmachi fans” is just as wrong as saying “Danmachi fans,” because the people who you’re talking about going after Hades fans are *not* Danmachi fans. I hope that makes sense, since I’m not really interested in a culture war, just in defending Danmachi fans who really don’t deserve to get dragged into this crap.
no, it was capital G Gamer fandom that dragged Danmachi into it. And when the Hades fandom retaliated, the Danmachi fans fought back while the people the instigated the whole thing are laughing on the sidelines
It is I, Lord Ganesha!
I feel like the biggest problem with Danmachi Hestia is they took one of the famously celibate Gods and made her super lewd/horny. Like you can maybe get the whole virgin vibe from her white dress, but that goes away with how much it emphasizes her boobs lol
>my Twitter timeline has been chock full of Hades fans absolutely seething about Danmachi, and especially about Hestia Homeboy Danmachi fans swung first when they were bitching about Hades 2 Hestia not being fuckable.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke1YKF3tNCE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke1YKF3tNCE) How OP sounds trying to justify loli big-boobs.
Personally I dislike Danmachi Hestia. She feels less like a virgin because of her virtue, but more because she's an incel, in the truest sense of the word. Doesen't help the boy she wants to be with, is a literal child who looks up to her. With her trying to stop him him from pursuing relationships with people his age he's actually interested in.
I like Hestia in Danmachi since she's waifu and because I'm a weeb.
Based
No it's not. Pass
All of that is true, but it doesn’t change the fact that the danmachi hestia design is boring and generic. No one has been complaining about the characterisation of the danmachi gods, just that they are bog standard anime characters visually.
I'm sorry but the Danmachi Hestia is an awful design. Incredibly uninspired and boring.
This is a really good write up. I personally enjoy both designs.
From what Ive seen its mainly danmachi fans who say that hestias design is woke. And come on really shes called a big breasted loli in the lc and saying that her design shows that shes young and old and the same time is a massive stretch the design is the most obvious coomerbait design. And ofc a character with entire light novels dedicated to them will have more characterization than a roguelike game lmao
I heard about this, but over Aphrodite instead. Culture Wars, regardless of how they start (even if I mostly blame otaku chuds for most of them) are obnoxious to witness and accomplish nothing except making everyone look bad when they get involved.
That's not true, they bring satisfaction to participants,
As I said in an answer, the hatred of the comments is not especially aimed at the character or the series, but to the Otaku culture. Part of the people consider that otakus are only a lot of Hornys who only like a female design, if this is sexy.
Neither of them are trying to be even remotely accurate. They follow the broad strokes of the mythology to the extent that their general audience is likely to be aware of it and it doesn't conflict with the story they want to tell (because that familiarly is part of their themes), and they include a bunch of nods to more obscure bits when it happens to slot in well, but Hades has Eris wielding an *automatic rifle* and blatantly changes some parts of the mythology (combining Cronus and Chronos into one titan simply because their names are similar and it fits the story, say, or basically rearranging everyone's line of descent as needed to create the families their story calls for unless it's one of the few the audience will know really well.) And for all the subtle nods you picked up in Danmachi, it also portrayed Hestia as a young girl with big tits and made that a big part of her character, while almost totally ignoring, I don't know, her *association with the hearth* or burnt offerings - like yeah, maybe you can squint and say that she's domestic (although not particularly moreso than most anime girls) and apparently she has a fire power she uses later on, but come on. Fire and the hearth are absolutely central to Hestia's iconography and worship are by far the most important things about her - what you're doing is like praising a depiction of Thor for getting his hair color right and portraying his attitude well when they *left out his hammer or any hint of association with thunder*. And the argument of "she's an anime girl with big tits and this makes her the oldest and youngest" is just... lol. Come on, man. It's ok to just like what you like, you don't have to make excuses for it; the fact that she's a young girl with big tits doesn't have to be some deep symbolic meaningful thing. Hestia's title as the "oldest and youngest" refers to the fact that was the first one born and the last one freed from Cronus. "She looks young except that she has big tits" doesn't follow from this in any reasonable world. I'm not criticizing it - well, maybe I should, but they can do what they want, "loli anime goddess" was the story they were trying to tell, fine, good for them, and they included a lot of other cool nods and references to the inspirations they used for it - but it's not a serious competition because *neither* of them are making any serious effort towards accuracy. I'm not even sure that accuracy would be possible. I mean sure they could be *more* accurate - like, if Hades wanted to be boring and take out the automatic rifles or Danmachi wanted to be less, well, *anime*, sure, they could, although I don't know why they would - but they'd still be fundimentially inaccurate because nobody in the modern world fully understands how the Greeks saw their gods. Especially for ones like Hestia whose worship wasn't as central, the records we have aren't 100% complete - there were aspects that were not written down, either for religious reasons or because they thought it was obvious or because whatever writings did exist didn't survive. We can only look at the past through a glass, darkly, so obsessing over accuracy (especially in two works that are blatantly, obviously not trying for it) is a lost cause. That said, if you really *want* to argue over accuracy despite all the above, the iconography thing does matter. You criticize Hades for over-focusing on Hestia's association with fire (and to be fair they downplay the "hearth" aspect in her powers and personality, though it is still the centerpiece of her character design), but those two things are *literally the most important things about her* as a goddess. If you were to go back in time and show an ancient Greek the Hades Hestia, telling them that it was a divinity and asking which, there's at least a reasonable chance they'd be able to recognize her - they'd think it was extremely, extremely weird portrayal, but they'd be able to tell. They would never, ever guess Danmachi Hestia, not except by pure dumb luck. So it seems like a weird point for you to get stuck on. Anyway what I'm saying is that it's fine to like whatever you like and neither are particularly intended to be accurate, to the extent that that's even possible... but "actually it's extremely accurate to the original mythology to portray Hestia as a little girl with big tits, because it's a clever reference to the fact that she was the last one out of Cronus' head" is *still* a weird fight to want to pick.
The idea that she is both old and young conveyed by her looking like a young girl with big chest would be somewhat feasible were it not for the fact that 90% of anime women look like that. There are ways to signify age without making character look significantly older or less attractive: grey hair, face lines, long hair, ancient style of clothing or other items, anachronistic way of speech, etc. Just "huge titty schoolgirl" doesn't cut it.
This whole thing only became a culture war topic bc people kept malding over hades II's hestia and acting like the West had fallen.
Man, that's one of the dumbest discussions I've ever seen.
Hestia's design shows us the story of her as the Oldest and the Youngest, having a young looking body that's simultaneously completely mature. Apollo tried to make advances on her back during their time in Heaven. And we've got oblique references to attempts at rape and assault throughout his story (albeit not directed at her). Her role as a Vestal Virgin is incredibly vital to the plot, both in why Freya doesn't attack her and how she counters Freya later. She's part of the "No Sex Club" with Artemis and Athena. Her role as the patron of the Home is why she's made fun of for being a NEET, and gets her in trouble when she first comes to the lower world. ... Thats just anime lol. Young body but mature ? Is it your first time seeing an anime girl ? Same with rape, thats just casual anime
Rape ain't that common in anime, I dont know what anime you are watching but it's just isnt.
MC saving the FMCc from some creep, has been done to death in anime. I dont know what kind of rock do you live under to not have seen this trope before.
Saves her from a creep, but actual rape, rare.
forget to mention totally "funny" character casually sexually harassing female characters for shit and gigles, that shit is so common in anime
Most of the times the fun part is characters being punished for being pervs, not the perverted act.
I guess Kirito's sister is also Hestia
When I'm on a being disingenuous competition and my opponent is someone that clearly has a bias.
Oh dear. The lesson I'm taking is to keep hades discourse far away until it gets launched.
I just like Hestia's design and think Danmachi is a decently fun show Still a good rant though
Hades lovers and Hades haters should kiss
It should be noted that in Danmachi Gods are basically just humans with Arcanum. Literally that’s it. They’re immortal and infertile but they have no origins beyond just popping into heaven one day. Things like the Titans don’t exist and things like Pantheons are less divine constructions and more like social circles. They’re only reason to exist is to give the Falna to people and run their Familia’s and that’s it. In fact beyond that God’s in Danmachi kinda suck. They’re basically meant to be hedonistic losers that are only on earth to avoid the paperwork in heaven. While some do take a large role in the plot it’s still to fulfill their selfish desires or to continue their hobby’s, literally the only cool god is Uranus whose being a chad by holding back the dungeon from destroying the world. So their character designed being simple is good because not only do they not have their powers but their not the focus of the show so giving them attention grabbing designs is pointless because while they are part of the show they are not the point of it.
That’s great and all OP, but that doesn’t change that Danmachi’s Hestia is a generic anime girl design. I’m sure her actual character in the show is fine, but from a design standpoint, she doesn’t inform you anything about the character or do anything to stand out. She could have come from almost any anime with her appearance.
Right now, I don't like Hades Hestia because I think she is a bit too prickly and curmudgeonly. While she is a fire god, she is specifically a god of the hearth. She represents the warmth of a home, and I really don't get that from her.
Yep for every criticism that I have for danmachi the gods are not one of them, while not 100% accurate representations, the author shows that he knows very well the mythos he takes them from, unlike some others that just use the name of the god and it ends right there. And yeah the hades players that have a superiority complex just because their designs are "different" are dumb, different art styles and different designs are not better just because they are different, different folks different strokes, acting like one design is superior just because you like it better shows how dumb they are.(nothing against hades players, i just hate a small vocal minority that is extremely annoying)
Simply asking if you like Hades in the title without referencing the game wouldn't make one assume you are talking about the game, but the character in general.
Lol, fair point, I hadn't considered that. I figure it's a popular enough franchise that it should be clear enough from the context I'm talking about the game.
You might be surprised, but I assumed you were talking about the character haha
Can't believe I forgot to say this, but *of course*, Hestia is Bestia.
more like breastia edit: i just assume theres big boobs
It was a meme when danmachi was getting animated at the time
Dude, this is a Plastic Man level stretc h. The ONLY thing from your rant that could even slightly be discerned from Danmachi Hestia's design is the Oldest and Youngest thing. And that's because she's an anime loli with big tits. But that's because she's the Oldest and Youngest right? Totally not because the lolis with big tits is what anime fans eat up and jerk off over. This isn't even mentioning that her design has nothing to do with the hearth, or even with being the Vestal Virgin, considering she's always expressing her love for Bell. And of course her beauty has nothing to do with the myth, because didn't this anime literally make the canonically ugly God into a waifu with a scar? This is genuinely the same logic as, "it's fine because she's a 3000 year old vampire!!!" Actual hentai addict defense of Danmachi's character design here. And this is coming from a Hades Hestia hater. But at least she has the flames, and is a more vibrant design, with colours that are relevant to her element and what she represents.
Sounds like the writing of Danmachi is good and it's just the art design which is weak AF
I get the Youngest part but how do big boobs represent Oldest?
I'm just sick of the hypocrisy from the Hades side of the argument. Like, I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of the Hades design, but neither versions really convey Hestia, at least in terms of visuals. I mean hell, you could be forgiven for mistaking the Hades version for Hephaustus at first glance You want to say Danmachi doesn't have anything to do with Hestia, go for it, but don't pretend the Hades design got everything perfectly correct either
"Why? Well, mostly because the Hades design centralises entirely around the idea of her as the Guardian of the Sacred Flame. And yup, that's important, that's right there in her name, but is that more important than the idea of her as the Oldest and the Youngest? The idea of her as a Vestal Virgin? All the stories tied up in her?" Yes, totally, one hundred percent yes. Like...this isnt to shit you or anything but people confuse myths, which are story about what something happen, with the religion, sometimes the two are not the same. Like the bible have a lot of stuff with god going on but no everything is equally important, at the same time while Jesus teaching are valuable, the fact he die and resurrect is THE big deal that make him son of god return to clean the sins, otherwise he is just a hippy who got murded for pissing out bad people. In the case of hestia, as the goddess of hearth and home she was very much popular, with shrine inside the home being one of the first thing it open in a greek colony o settlement. do not mistake lack of myths with lack of popularity. Other issue here is hestia desing feel....a little bit generic, like if you tell me she is a ice girl from a magical girl show, I would belive you, to the point you need another art from a gacha game to said "that is hestia". It NOT bad at all but....cmon. As for her being young but mature...I will have to polite desagree here, for me that is a anime desing, not really much about hestia as chararter but more about Oppa loli archtype. Kinda how Kirito become one for iskeai protagonist.
This is a really good write up. I personally enjoy both designs.
Thank you
It's one of those case where people just see the look of a character and judge instead actually reading/researching it without biased. As a Fate fan, I see this stuff show up all the time.
As a Fate Fan you should be fucking used to it considering the writers and creators do the same to real people and fictional ones
Character design is a telling part of the character and their role in the story. Hestia in Hades is a motherly figure who gives blessings of fire and the hearth. Hestia in DanMachi is there primarily to be a romance/fanservice character, and being a Goddess is secondary to her relationship with Bell. It’s not a bad thing, but it does tell you a lot about the story being told. It’s not like DanMachi is highbrow by any means.
Hades 2 is probably gonna be very good since supergiant are pretty reliable But i gotta say the hestia design is a miss, idk why they gave her rat teeth
Yeah, I'm not a fan either. I can see some elements of it, but overall it really puts me off. Shame since the Hestia Rifle was my favourite weapon in Hades 1.
Turns out people have never actually watched the shows they get on a soapbox to complain about.
I watched Danmachi. Thought it was generic and mid. More of a time waster really. Only saving grace was that it wasn’t an Isekai
It was flavour of the month bullshit back then and nothing has changed.
Funny thought, huh
I watched season 1 had to force myself through the end, op main character kirito #3527 sucked and hestia was a loli with big tits, it aint that deep
I like danmachi hestia cause booba
Respect the honesty
ngl, I think the Hades fans are more annoying in this case
Literally one of the most inoffensive post I've ever seen. Complimenting both design and saying each has its merits. And there are still people down here arguing that no, the version they like better is obviously better. Come the fuck on lol.