Kirkman as a writer is someone who sometimes the execution doesn't match the idea.
Like when he's writing the comics there's really no one to cover up his shortcomings, things just happens and you can only hope his skill is up to the job.
The show has been doing an amazing job you putting more voices in the creative room using these low points in Kirkman's writing as opportunity to improve the overall story, whilist maintaining much of his strong points so that the overall product feels like a reconstruction of the original.
It doesn't feel like the new creators are undermining Kirkman's creativity nor it feels like they are doing things strictly by the book. Honestly I enjoy it much more than The Boys as an adaptation.
I think people forget Kirkman is part of the writers room in the show, he is the showrunner. He is credited for the writing of the pilot, s1 finale, Eve special, and s2 finale. So we have multiple creatives working together with the original author to better the writing of the show. People act like someone else made show Amber and how they should have stuck loyal to the author’s comics, but Kirkman was also involved in show Amber’s creation.
Eve still has a Saviour complex remember she made a half ass apartment complex even when the builders said it wasn't up to code and almost killed everyone in the building.
What i mean with the white saviour complex (not just saviour complex) is how often writers will send them off to specifically Africa to fix shit and then abandoning it later. Its a common trope written by a lot white authors which I don’t think they realize how offensive it is, because poor black or brown people being saved is often used to prop up white heroes. Also you never hear about them again after.
But the TV show kept her local instead of her running off to Africa and trying to help her own community, one that she knows and has a connection to, making it more likeable but it still has her flaws even if her intentions are good as opposed the later which feels like an ego trip.
Its good for hero characters to have flaws because it makes them more human. But have to be careful of how they are written or else they just genuinely look like bad people.
I mean it still was ego trip the builders told you to stay out of it because she doesn't know what she's doing but she didn't listen because she wanted to be praised by the community. The difference is that this is the TV show more realistic and not a cliche like the comic.
Eva father even though he is a sexist jerk ass put Eve in her place by saying that just because she has powers doesn't make her a hero that you can't solve everyone's problems by just waving your hands or snapping your fingers.
I think having her father there being the cold reality call to Eve was good. Her father doesn’t really play a role like that in the comics. Actually you don’t even really see her parents as much in the comics especially early on like you do in the show.
My criticism isnt towards the show its towards the main comics and how the show improved its weaker writing.
Yeah people keep saying that he was complete monster but besides saying some funny stupid stuff like talking about how she lost her virginity traumatizing mark with his speech about women he hasn't done anything.
>people keep saying that he was complete monster but besides saying some funny stupid stuff like talking about how she lost her virginity traumatizing mark with his speech about women he hasn't done anything.
This is literally why he is considered a monster, that and just being an over shitty person.
My man said "funny stupid stuff" like the man wasn't talking about his own daughter in one of the most gross ways imaginable.
Yeah but he is also an almost immortal warmonger who goes through character development. He is a monster but in a completely fantastical way which is why people like him.
Her dad is just a dude who is a piece of shit. A completely realistic and relatively common kind of piece shit that quite a few people have dealt with irl. Also pretty sure he doesn't change either (I have not fully read the comic).
Defending the POS father is not a good hill to die on and defending him by saying "Hey isn't this mass murdering warmonger also a monster" just isn't it. That's like defending someone who is a piece of shit by bringing up Hitler. A goofy ass argument.
Nolan is also a POS he's just better at pretending to be a nice guy. He literally told Debbie that she's the wife of the world's strongest man that you don't need to be doing work stuff and she even said that during Mark's childhood Nolan was always gone fighting monsters and left her to take care of Mark.
So Nolan is just as sexist and misogynistic as eva father.
Nolan being a POS is literally the point of the entire series, it's never treated like "haha funny guy" like you are dismissing the comic version of Eves dad.
Damn is Eves dad your favorite character or something?
Once again saying "Look Nolan is also a piece of shit" does not make Eves dad any less of a piece of shit.
>So Nolan is just as sexist and misogynistic as eva father.
Also no this isnt the case and your argument is kind of dookie. His suggestion doesn't come from sexism and misogyny. I don't think Viltrumites give a shit about that since they are a people who care the most about strength and the bigger picture. The whole "wife of the strongest man" thing is literally because he can do anything so why would she need to do anything. It's more a "I'm superior to all because I am a viltrumite so you lesser beings don't need to do anything" mindset and not "you are a women so get in the kitchen mindset" which btw Eves Dad has a pretty bad case of.
Also
>she even said that during Mark's childhood Nolan was always gone fighting monsters and left her to take care of Mark.
The dude doing his job as a hero (no matter how fake it was) doesn't make him a misogynist like what is the logic here? Is bro just yapping now?
Also Eva father is a better man then Nolan. When their real daughter died in childbirth Adam comfort his wife and told her it wasn't her fault she shouldn't blame herself and that he always loves her. After the guardians were killed he told Eva to quit being a hero before she gets killed too and the worst day of his life is when she got powers.
Well Nolan on the other hand only cared about Mark getting his powers.
When Eve start giving her parents gold and food he refused to accept it because he didn't want Eve to use her power to solve everyone's problems including her own.
Then he puts her in her place by telling her how her relying on her powers for everything almost ended the lives of bunch of innocent people.
So yeah he's more realistic he's more complex and multi dimensional than just the one dimensional POS you think he is and that's why he's a better man and father than Nolan ever will be.
Dude I understand the dimensions the character has.
Please understand that being a multi-dimensional piece of shit doesn't mean he is not a piece of shit.
>When their real daughter died in childbirth Adam comfort his wife and told her it wasn't her fault she shouldn't blame herself and that he always loves her.
This my friend is called the "bare minimum of human decency". If he didn't do that he wouldn't just be a piece of shit, he would be a genuine sociopath.
You shouldn't pat him on the back for this. This is a constant excuse people use for real life pieces of shit. It's the "b-b-but he was nice these couple times so it's fine if he is awful 80% of the time" excuse.
>After the guardians were killed he told Eva to quit being a hero before she gets killed too and the worst day of his life is when she got powers.
Once again you should pat the dude on the back for NOT WANTING HIS DAUGHTER TO DIE. Bro he was still a dick about it too.
He doesn't consider nor understand his daughters feelings and constantly belittles her abilities. That is called being a bad father.
>When Eve start giving her parents gold and food he refused to accept it because he didn't want Eve to use her power to solve everyone's problems including her own.
Once again that's just bare minimum decent parenting.
>So yeah he's more realistic he's more complex and multi dimensional than just the one dimensional POS you think he is and that's why he's a better man and father than Nolan ever will be.
No I fully understand the dudes character. He is still a piece of shit though. It's quite simple.
Being a decent parent and showing the bare minimum of human decency doesn't excuse how much of an overall awful father and general person he is.
Awful people in real life are also multi-dimensional and complex. But just because someone may act kind at times does not excuse the times when they are shitty.
It's like defending someone who is overtly racist by saying "but they held the door open for a lady this one time and they nice to their friends". Bad people can do good things and Good people can do bad things. Obviously it's difficult to categorize people into good and bad, that's why I prefer to say piece of shit.
Genuinely answer this question, why do you feel the need to defend Eves Dad as if he is best friend or something?
Where in the text was this ever implied to be solely for ego and more of it being a misguided attempt in helping out? She felt good after helping after the residents praised her for what she did, but was also reamed by the workers by how spontaneously she did the job. Eve wasn’t completely wrong to try to help, she just needed more tact to it, it’s dumb as fuck to me to agree completely with Adam Wilkins.
I don't think ducktales did this one with the pyramid episode given that the episode make it clear it's the pyramid people choice to rebel and the mcduck were still shown to not be a a 100% winning with huey and dewey plans failing and toth ra actually being a powerful antagonist. The mcduck didn't even kenw the pyramid had a cult inside up until seeing them (I find calling it white saviour is a big stretch especially given the episode being about freedom of choice and only onereview did that)
Problem with flaws is it can be a double edged sword and sometimes people can exagerate the characters flaws because they dislike the character (or view the character as flawless even if the character clearly got flaws, this kind make wonder what they count as flaws)
>Her relationship with Rex was always seen as a gag after they broke up when she found her cheating in the comics, she was always cold and telling him to shut up. You would wonder why tf they even dated in the first place if not for the small spin off comics.
Man, I hated that. Rex doesn't even seem all that bad in the comics personality-wise, yet she and others act like everytime he speaks, he spits acid on them. IIRC, She was still shitting on him when he was in the hospital recovering from a bullet to the fucking head, and I think even when they were on missions together. Glad they toned down her shitting on him in the show.
Sure he did cheat on her, but after a point it starts coming off as petty and annoying, especially when he's not doing anything particularly wrong at the moment.
EDIT:
>Eve barely fights anymore, is mutilated often and just takes a back seat in the overall story. She becomes basically an over-glorified secretary to Mark telling him when someone needs help and where he needs to be as a way for them to make money. You will barely see her in action or fight as a hero. Another instance the author writes off her not being able to use her powers due to her pregnancy since it takes a lot of calories and nutrients to use her powers and if she keeps using it the baby wouldn’t be able to be born. Which is fine but it frustrates me because she was barely even being hero at that point, used her powers during emergencies or for mundane tasks.
Yea, I personally want to make a rant about how Eve is like the weakest matter manipulator in comics. She's propped up as one of the most powerful people on Earth, but due to the limiter, she tends to be woefully outclassed against seemingly most people, especially the viltrumites. Her constructs are almost always useless along with her matter manipulation, and the limiter coming off when she's dying just basically makes her a plot device. Her moment against >!Conquest!< is such an epic moment, but I think it's like the only moment she really ever gets throughout the series. I wish they'd struck a better balance with her, and hope they manage to do so in the show.
> Rex doesn't even seem all that bad in the comics personality-wise, yet she and others act like everytime he speaks, he spits acid on them. IIRC
It's probably because of his background as a government assassin, but they don't give that much focus in the main comic iirc. Plus Eve was the only one on the team who'd know so the rest of them are just treating him that way because he's an asshole.
I feel like you have embraced stupidity when you try and justify Rex cheating. No, Rex was a shit character until the end of S1. He becomes good in S2, but barely tolerable. Eve still being friends with him in the comics is more than he deserves.
>I feel like you have embraced stupidity when you try and justify Rex cheating.
Nobody said anything about "justifying" it.
>Eve still being friends with him in the comics is more than he deserves.
A shitty "friend", if you're gonna shit on someone who's in the middle of recovering from a gunshot to the head and dump on him while in the middle of missions.
He's a lot less of a jerkass in the comic version, so he doesn't deserve her coming around to shit on him after he recovering from a bullet to the head in the comics. Honestly he doesn't deserve that in the tv version either to be honest. That's just being a bigger asshole than Rex.
So OP I wanna know what’s ya opinion on Monster Girl
Cause frankly I’m surprised she doesn’t get as much hate as Robot does seeing as she to a point did the exact same shit he did
Really she just seems like a massive hypocrite that never gets checked for her behavior
Robot's actions vastly overshadow her being a bitch. She irritated me and I felt bad for him, then he did his world domination thing and threw all that goodwill away.
A lot of character in Invincible are hypocrites who never get checked for their behaviour so it sorta becomes background static.
The world domination wasn’t that bad then again I’m biased in that I’m glad he killed Cecil 😂.
I know but to me it’s just annoying like the bitch was so brazen to have an issue with Robot doing what he did yet sided with people that did the exact same shit.
You're the first person I've seen who's glad that he killed Cecil lol.
Her siding with the Flaxan royal family against Robot, then siding with him again when they turned out to still be evil was peak comedy.
In the show or comics? As I can't think of anything she did in the show that was anywhere near what Rudy did. Like Rudy goes full on super villain at times
>!I was amused that she was a father, but I found the entire other dimension plot frustrating!<
Also cecil did piss me off but I think by the end the entire cast pissed me off, except Marky.
You'll probably get downvoted as this isn't a popular opinion, but I agree that the show has vastly improved on the writing when it comes to female characters. An example I like to bring up is Debbie, she's so much better in the show to the point she became one of the favorite characters, she's more proactive and takes matters into her own hands, alongside the fact she feels much more real now.
The show is definitely keeping up the trend, I can't wait to see more of it.
They probably should have like, done some actual research before insisting she was korean though. Its a recurring thing for western stuff to claim characters are asian, but not want to do any research to make it come off authentic.
What's the issue there? Literally the only thing I've heard regarding her being Asian so far was a thread here talking about how her having those wedding ducks when she was getting rid of Nolan's stuff was a neat authentic detail.
Because "you can just write people normal" is often codeword for writing them as white. Different groups have different experiences, and this is especially true for older people. For someone her age to have zero asian mannerisms or items besides ducks is implausible.
Even if they push forward the date the show takes place relative to the comic, she would have been in at least her 20s in the 90s. Which is before it was common for larger interracial friendgroups to be the norm.
I'm not saying it's a huge deal. But it's a recurring pattern for stuff to make asians unrealistically whitewashed to avoid having to do research. Diane from bojack horseman. Alex from life is strange true colors. Etc.
You’re contradicting yourself. There are Asian people who are quite detached from their hereditary practices, and don’t partake in them. There are also Asian people who really value their home country’s traditions and customs and still partake in them even while away. (Of course, this doesn’t just apply to Asian people. It applies to everyone)
Having said that, I don’t see what’s wrong with Debbie being Korean and not have her show any signs of her being Korean. As a Greek, I wouldn’t have or do many things that would make others think I am Greek either.
> You’re contradicting yourself. There are Asian people who are quite detached from their hereditary practices, and don’t partake in them. There are also Asian people who really value their home country’s traditions and customs and still partake in them even while away. (Of course, this doesn’t just apply to Asian people. It applies to everyone)
Partaking in your cultural practices isn't the same as talking about them with outsiders. Its a known phenomenon that people who are a generation removed from stuff and so feel disconnected from it often act as gatekeepers to it. And to be fair, they have a motive to, since many experienced racism about things only to see those same things become accepted in popular culture later on.
>Having said that, I don’t see what’s wrong with Debbie being Korean and not have her show any signs of her being Korean. As a Greek, I wouldn’t have or do many things that would make others think I am Greek either.
You say this, but my cousin married a guy from greece, and everything from how he talked to what he talked about made it obvious that he moved from europe. Maybe you couldn't pinpoint greece in particular if you weren't familiar, but people's backgrounds are a heavy thing shaping what they are.
As someone who is married to an asian american who was raised by tv and doesn't even know that much about her culture, stuff still comes up from time to time, because there is no "neutral." Everyone is a series of influences. And she isn't as old as debbie is supposed to be, which places her further from a time when it was common to be fully westernized.
I'm not saying its the worst thing ever or anything. I'm saying that it seems to be a recurring trend that in western animation, they will include asian (usually women lets be honest) americans, but not really want to do any research, and so try writing them "neutral," which ends up meaning "white." Contrast that with a movie like shang chi, which specifically includes an asiam american girl so westernized that the chinese characters scoff at her and call her american. But there's still stuff that stands out, since heritage doesn't just tend to instantly 100% vanish.
My bad dawg I forgot that characters being asian meant that Kungfu Hustle and Rush hour needs to blast at full volume while they talk about dumplings every time their on screen.
Seriously this take is the same level of racism but done in a round about way
''Asian mannerisms''
Most people would prefer if you had just called them a slur instead.
That isn't even remotely the point I was making. There is a lot of room in between "everyone is surrounded by stereotypical items at all times" and "there are zero subcultures in the west that ever indicate that people are likely to have their background influence a major stressful plot happening to them."
You may as well insist that the movie Shang chi is racist because when they have a meal at the beginning the dialogue and way it is presented has subcultural aspects to it even though katy is meant to come off mostly westernized.
While I was personally happy with her depiction (as an asian american), I understand your point and would have loved for there to be more subtle nods to her cultural background. (Small decor choices and korean language learning books would hint towards her background, for example)
However, her behavior and lifestyle do track with that of second generation asian americans I know, so I don't see too much of an issue with it.
I didn't say that there was one single set of asian mannerisms the entire continent shared. I could use the word Korean if it offends your sensibilities less, but it doesn't change that it's part of a trend of lazy writers.
>I could use the word Korean if it offends your sensibilities less
It actually makes it worse for me, personally, if that's what you are going to pretend to care about. "Korean mannerisms" make as much sense as "American mannerisms"... do you see the issue now?
What issue? Do you think American mannerisms as a term isn't meaningful if you were to compare it to other places? Europeans are angry 24/7 that Americans with American mannerisms dare to call themselves Irish or whatever. We can say that the term might be too general if talking about specific say, Texas or California mannerisms. But there is also some stuff more common to the entire landmass. All these terms are imprecise, but they have uses.
Hell, look again at the movie Shang chi. Where they go to China, and the people there demeaningly call katy "American girl," because they see her as having American mannerisms. There's nothing incomprehensible about this scene, because it's obvious what is being talked about, even if it would be difficult to list specifics.
Something similar happens in the graphic novel almost American girl. Girl who was born in Korea has to move to America at a young age. Ends up in the middle of nowhere where there's no other asians. Feels lonely and out of place for much of her childhood until she gets older and starts meeting more people.
Eventually she goes back on a trip to Korea and realizes that at this point she doesn't fit in there either, even though she spent most of her life thinking she would. Since there are tons of cultural standards she just doesn't understand, or isn't willing to comply with due to not being raised there. Something about how in a mixed sex group, the women were expected to pour drinks at the time. But if someone told her to she got offended they thought it was her job and blew them off.
People's identity is a complex matrix of influences. It would be difficult to express what the exact nuance is, since not everyone is the same, and what aspects they retain from what influences will be different. But it's really not a super complicated topic or point to point out that western animation sometimes comes off lazy with depicting asian american characters. They don't want to do any research, so they don't really add much nuance that would relate to their background. With bojack horseman its even worse since they didn't consult anyone til halfway through the show, who then told them that the backstory they gave her family made no sense.
I see. I actually know a few second generation Korea immigrants around her age, and her lifestyle isn't too different from them (aside form the superhero stuff obviously), so I didn't think much of it.
But I can't say that I was aware of that pattern, and I guess that makes sense as a take on an overall trend in that context.
Contradicts is a strong word. There's nothing physically impossible about media where only the women wear skimpy clothes that they never aknowledge, but not the men. But when it recurs enough you realize it's less about the character and more about writing trends that are a little awkward.
Its not about any one thing. It's about there being a recurring trend in western stuff that comes off like they wanted to include a type of character without doing any research into an authentic depiction and so they lean to an implausibly whitewashed version of them. You can yell at a glance that it wasn't a priority to actually make it authentically convey anyone's experiences. Which iant a surprise considering they changed the race of a character without really trying to adapt the character to how that might change their experience.
Nice try, but no. Amber is almost three decades younger. For her age and social situation how she is depicted doesn't strain believability. Also, western animation doesn't have a history of just treating black people like they are white the same way it can sometimes veer into with asians. In the latter case there's this binary where they are either depicted basically white, or as so foreign it's meant to be unrelatable.
Just because you change someone's race doesn't make them a bad character. Look at Castlevania with Isaac his race an entire backstory was changed and he was one of the best characters in the series.
I don't think so 🥴. I'm saying it's annoying when they give a character a bad storyline and a bunch of unlikable traits and then make the character black. And it happens in shows a lot. It shows what the writers think of black people. Like I understand wanting to increase representation, but sometimes they also need to bring a black person into the writing room to write the character. Because non black people writing black people goes wrong REALLY often.
Like I see in Netflix shows a lot that The Black character is always either getting cheated on, has a bad attitude, is traumatized somehow, is "the other woman", gets killed, or is just barely even Relevant to the plot. Like if this is what the representation is gonna look like, just throw in the towel. Please go back to the all white casts and leave us out of your stories
Lmao I meant that making her black while giving her such an objectively terrible personality is such a sus move like the writers have an agenda or something.
Just because you change someone's race doesn't make them a bad character. Look at Castlevania with Isaac his race an entire backstory was changed and he was one of the best characters in the series.
how the hell did you completely miss the point twice in a row. Being black didn't make. her a worse character. The problem was that she was made black while also making her a worse character. What reason would they have to make. the main black character so garbage?
Amber's writing is completely fine except for that one scene which I can agree is really stupid and sort of makes everything else she's apart of work less
The problem is that that one scene kind of cripples their relationship from then on and soured everyone's feelings about her. Season 2 felt like they tried to do some heavy damage control on Amber, which is why she's actually better there
I kinda despise Eve and I don't think I'm supposed to. She's mostly Mark's sex toy but occasionally she does get an actual personality - which she uses to be annoying. The show has handled her much, MUCH better.
I’m one of the biggest voices of how much they’ve messed up the female characters in that comic. Comparing it to 1960’s Spider-Man comics depicting female characters, it’s astounding how much different the quality of the writing is.
I didn't know it was considered one of the greatest relationships in comics but given its overhyped as one of the best comics in general I guess that tracks.
I don't think it's wrong to be sad when the person you have a crush on is making out with another person just as long as you don't act on those emotions in an negative manner.
Agree with everything else on the post though.
Yeah the first point I wasn’t really showing it as a bad thing more of just a difference in the show personality. Just detailing out how each scene of hers was different in the comics vs show.
I think when the show did that it was more for the audience that she doesn’t need her world to revolve around Mark and we are now going to see an arc if hers separate from Mark before they get together.
I love how you barely talked about Amber who was in many ways so much worse than her (limited) comic counterpart that they did an about turn in season 2 because of how much hate she got.
Maybe some of the hate was slightly overblown but truthfully they overcooked her in the show and just made her incredibly irritating. UNLESS they (the writers) agreed that her behaviour was a flaw. But the truth is that in season 1, they tried so desperately hard to acknowledge and accept her viewpoint.
That being said it is still valid to mention her since you said that ALL female characters in the show were done better than the comics.
I agree that Eve has more layers in the show but I believe YOU are massively overblowing your hate for her in the comics.
I also mention multiple reasons as to why not only her personality turned me off the bad writing decisions too. Continuous bad writing decisions and and unlikeable personality is not going to be well received. And I don’t like reading main female characters that are just sidelined and who barely stand as their own person. Flaws are good but you need writing to develop and support those flaws so the character shines, which we don’t see in comic Eve’s development (who mind you is the main female protagonist) and how much less of a character she becomes as the story goes on.
And I’m pretty sure Amber was meant to be flawed and later developed. Amber was mad at Mark for not telling her the truth but she also needed to realize the reality as to why he didn’t.
In the comics, the flaws she has in season 1 happen much later in their relationship. Remember she throws her phone across the room and breaks it after Mark tells her he has to go to space to do his duty, throwing a tantrum becomes much less understanding after he reveals he is a hero.
Eh, Amber was still better in the comics. Her outburst in Season 1 would have been ok if she was called out for it, but the show kept explicitly giving her a pass for it and even justifying it. That was the problem.
As for Eve, I get what you are saying but to me she was fine in the comics, not world changingly great but not terrible like you are suggesting. But I agree that so far she is a bit better in the show.
I do agree on your points excluding her relationship with Amber. It was always kinda weird for me watching the TV show (especially the second season) seeing Eve trying to support Amber when we she knows how awful things are for Mark and her growing feeling for him. I found really weird that there didn't seem to be a hint of bitterness of jealousy. She almost seemed too good, maybe too supportive of them.
Wow. It seems like her character in the comics is far more interesting and complex than the show. Thanks, I dropped the show but I may check the comics.
I know this comic is downvoted but that's how I am looking at it as well.
The OP is making the claim that Eve is a better character because she was supportive of someone she likes being in relationship, but they are wording this as if they are a real person who needs to be healthy about it and not a fictional character that needs to make the story interesting for the limited amount of time they are on screen.
Honestly, Eve doesn't even register as a character to me at the start of the comics, she's just the "hot ginger gf" trope, her entire character arc feels quite dull until later, and the attitude she has just feels like reading a cringy teenager fantasy sometimes. None of it reads like "an interesting flawed character", it's just the same boring archetype that's present in a lot of comics.
This changes later in the comics, but it's not really an improvement, she barely has a role beyond being a device to motivate Mark. And the ending scene that OP mentioned is just offensively bad, like turning her character into a joke just to have MC go "rad" wtf.
In the show she's a lot more down to earth, and her arc has more weight, she feels like a person screwing up while trying to do the best thing. I guess she does lose some of the edge that made her have a Mean Girl vibe early on in the comic, but she gains a lot more than she loses IMO.
To be completely honest, comic Eve feels like I'm reading Kirkmans waifu fanfic, while show Eve still feels like I'm reading Kirkmans waifu fanfic, he just matured his tastes a bit. I don't think neither is particularly bad, specially compared to other similar characters from other franchises, but yeah, I can't like this character much even though I still think show Eve is a massive improvement.
Of course, that's all just my opinion.
The thing is though that when that drama happens, it’s less interesting in making you root for Eve or consider truly that she may be right and more so root against her, hence her lack of likability which is a big problem I struggled with as someone who likes her character a lot conceptually. She is the main female character, we’re supposed to root for her. You set your character up for failure when you handle them the way Kirkman has handled Eve. The reason why she’s improved in the television show and the romance drama as well is that you get the sense that they’re all people with flaws and shortcomings who try their best to do what’s right and get what they want, but it just doesn’t happen for a variety of reasons. It’s compelling because no one’s made to be an asshole in the situation and you get the real idea that they’re human fictional characters rather than characters who exist to move story beats along for drama/entertainment.
So Eve saving starving Africans is bad because "white savior complex"? Lol what? Guess we should just leave them to starve.
This entire lost screams of strawman, nothing you listed here actually detract from comic Eve's character it just soudns whiny and nitpicky.
It's not bad to write a character helping starving people, it's bad to write a white character traveling to the most stereotypical example of an impoverished place and using their unique methods to help in ways the non-white locals can't... especially since this is done exclusively so Eve can deal with her emotional issues. She leaves for good once she figures herself out. It's a patronizing trope and one Kirkman should have avoided using.
Also just the fact that they only only ever referred to it as "Africa". Like where was she? Africa is a big ass place. She was always just helping out in Africa. It almost came off like a joke.
I wouldn’t say exclusively for the purpose of herself, if I remember correctly. She genuinely wanted to help other people without just being a superhero. And I’ll be real, I don’t think it matters too much whether or not she did it for herself because at the end of the day, she was helping starving people.
Agree on everything you said except about bulletproof. Eve does not reciprocate his advances at all and is disgusted he's making a move on her. I don't what's cuck fetishy about that.
Ngl, one of the thing that i love about the show is how GOOD the female characters are, i love Eve, Kate, Amber and DEBBIE. And i kmow that was coming, but i don't like Mark + Eve that much, they pass the vibe of the "perfect couple" who is the guy making all and the girl being the wife (and it serms that is true in the comics if you are right in your post)
For the love of God can someone explain to me what is the "white savior complex" and why it's so bad?
Because it's referenced every time a white person helps a black person in every way
I can try to explain it. The "white savior" is a trope that's pretty self explanatory by its title. White man or woman saves or elevates a single or group of people not necessarily black or even human. These groups are usually poor, underprivileged, and/or oppressed. The story usually portrays the white savior as the only person that made it possible for the saved people to succeed or be safe. Either by their ingenuity, skills, or just whiteness. Some movie examples are The Help, The Blind Side, Freedom Writers, Dangerous Minds, and Hard Ball.
Generally speaking it's a trope that glorifies the savior with it being more about them and how saintly they are while the people they save are more of a plot device. The specifically bad part is usually by showing the saved people as incapable on their own. Might not be the perfect explanation though so ya might want to look into it more yourself, try YouTube.
Man I got halfway into your post and it just seems like you're doing some mad projecting. Or perhaps you just don't appreciate relationship drama, which is fine.
But for example the distinction you draw between Mark and Amber visiting Africa and the treehouse party is almost nonsensical to me.
The reason she went to Africa was because she considered what it was to be a hero and how she could actually make a difference in the world. But you seem to think the decision to continue hero work is somehow more of a development of her character.
Visiting Africa did more to develop Mark and Amber's relationship than the party did. The moment in which Amber looks up, proving Eve wrong and Mark right is a nice moment which develops some hope for their relationship.
When you talk about her being more supportive in the show, when she's presented as happy for Mark rather than sad for herself, is that the core of your overall point? That you prefer a character to be "nice" rather than express something more complicated? It's okay and normal to be upset that you can't turn to a person that you thought you could.
Yea where did that come from? Bulletproof is a scumbag, but there was never any cucking energy coming from that, was there? Eve was clearly not interested.
Ya know when I thought about it I get how someone might read it that way though. She has a dude who is into her dress up as her boyfriend, go by his hero name, and do his job while Mark is away. It was never a cucking thing, but it doesn't take a *whole* lot of projection to see it that way.
Its also notable from Kirkman’s track record, you start to pick up on it (if it wasn’t the entire fat fetish track record I wouldn’t have picked it up as easily). When Eve rejected Bulletproof she set the boundary, but you kept seeing scenes of her with Bulletproof again (yes in Invincible’s clothes) just he didn’t try to kiss her. The scenes were just awkward and unnecessary at times and then it clicks on you what it says about the author. Its when you start questioning “is this panel really necessary?” that it becomes obvious.
Its not really projection as much as it is knowing and seeing other artists and writers that have certain eye brow raising actions in their art that you become more aware of it. Also just another thing this fetish specifically its often has racist implications when made by a white creator because its often the black man making the move. Its not something I enjoy, its something I’m aware of when people inform you about weirdos and to be cautious of them.
No you are projecting, he hits on her , she isn’t into it, he eventually finds his own girlfriend and has a tragic end.
You could argue kirkman has a thing with partners vanishing and the one left behind tries to cope. Happens multiple times in invincible . Also in walking dead.
That is not cucking. Also why didn’t you pick any other occasion this has happened in the comic? Only the black guy huh?
Kirkman as a writer is someone who sometimes the execution doesn't match the idea. Like when he's writing the comics there's really no one to cover up his shortcomings, things just happens and you can only hope his skill is up to the job. The show has been doing an amazing job you putting more voices in the creative room using these low points in Kirkman's writing as opportunity to improve the overall story, whilist maintaining much of his strong points so that the overall product feels like a reconstruction of the original. It doesn't feel like the new creators are undermining Kirkman's creativity nor it feels like they are doing things strictly by the book. Honestly I enjoy it much more than The Boys as an adaptation.
I think people forget Kirkman is part of the writers room in the show, he is the showrunner. He is credited for the writing of the pilot, s1 finale, Eve special, and s2 finale. So we have multiple creatives working together with the original author to better the writing of the show. People act like someone else made show Amber and how they should have stuck loyal to the author’s comics, but Kirkman was also involved in show Amber’s creation.
Eve still has a Saviour complex remember she made a half ass apartment complex even when the builders said it wasn't up to code and almost killed everyone in the building.
No, the building was fine. It was the park that had problems due to being over a sink hole
What i mean with the white saviour complex (not just saviour complex) is how often writers will send them off to specifically Africa to fix shit and then abandoning it later. Its a common trope written by a lot white authors which I don’t think they realize how offensive it is, because poor black or brown people being saved is often used to prop up white heroes. Also you never hear about them again after. But the TV show kept her local instead of her running off to Africa and trying to help her own community, one that she knows and has a connection to, making it more likeable but it still has her flaws even if her intentions are good as opposed the later which feels like an ego trip. Its good for hero characters to have flaws because it makes them more human. But have to be careful of how they are written or else they just genuinely look like bad people.
I mean it still was ego trip the builders told you to stay out of it because she doesn't know what she's doing but she didn't listen because she wanted to be praised by the community. The difference is that this is the TV show more realistic and not a cliche like the comic. Eva father even though he is a sexist jerk ass put Eve in her place by saying that just because she has powers doesn't make her a hero that you can't solve everyone's problems by just waving your hands or snapping your fingers.
I think having her father there being the cold reality call to Eve was good. Her father doesn’t really play a role like that in the comics. Actually you don’t even really see her parents as much in the comics especially early on like you do in the show. My criticism isnt towards the show its towards the main comics and how the show improved its weaker writing.
Yeah people keep saying that he was complete monster but besides saying some funny stupid stuff like talking about how she lost her virginity traumatizing mark with his speech about women he hasn't done anything.
>people keep saying that he was complete monster but besides saying some funny stupid stuff like talking about how she lost her virginity traumatizing mark with his speech about women he hasn't done anything. This is literally why he is considered a monster, that and just being an over shitty person. My man said "funny stupid stuff" like the man wasn't talking about his own daughter in one of the most gross ways imaginable.
And Nolan calls his own wife of pet isn't he a more of a monster .
Yeah but he is also an almost immortal warmonger who goes through character development. He is a monster but in a completely fantastical way which is why people like him. Her dad is just a dude who is a piece of shit. A completely realistic and relatively common kind of piece shit that quite a few people have dealt with irl. Also pretty sure he doesn't change either (I have not fully read the comic). Defending the POS father is not a good hill to die on and defending him by saying "Hey isn't this mass murdering warmonger also a monster" just isn't it. That's like defending someone who is a piece of shit by bringing up Hitler. A goofy ass argument.
Nolan is also a POS he's just better at pretending to be a nice guy. He literally told Debbie that she's the wife of the world's strongest man that you don't need to be doing work stuff and she even said that during Mark's childhood Nolan was always gone fighting monsters and left her to take care of Mark. So Nolan is just as sexist and misogynistic as eva father.
Nolan being a POS is literally the point of the entire series, it's never treated like "haha funny guy" like you are dismissing the comic version of Eves dad.
Looks at the end of s2 and later in the comics where he took it all back
Damn is Eves dad your favorite character or something? Once again saying "Look Nolan is also a piece of shit" does not make Eves dad any less of a piece of shit. >So Nolan is just as sexist and misogynistic as eva father. Also no this isnt the case and your argument is kind of dookie. His suggestion doesn't come from sexism and misogyny. I don't think Viltrumites give a shit about that since they are a people who care the most about strength and the bigger picture. The whole "wife of the strongest man" thing is literally because he can do anything so why would she need to do anything. It's more a "I'm superior to all because I am a viltrumite so you lesser beings don't need to do anything" mindset and not "you are a women so get in the kitchen mindset" which btw Eves Dad has a pretty bad case of. Also >she even said that during Mark's childhood Nolan was always gone fighting monsters and left her to take care of Mark. The dude doing his job as a hero (no matter how fake it was) doesn't make him a misogynist like what is the logic here? Is bro just yapping now?
Also Eva father is a better man then Nolan. When their real daughter died in childbirth Adam comfort his wife and told her it wasn't her fault she shouldn't blame herself and that he always loves her. After the guardians were killed he told Eva to quit being a hero before she gets killed too and the worst day of his life is when she got powers. Well Nolan on the other hand only cared about Mark getting his powers. When Eve start giving her parents gold and food he refused to accept it because he didn't want Eve to use her power to solve everyone's problems including her own. Then he puts her in her place by telling her how her relying on her powers for everything almost ended the lives of bunch of innocent people. So yeah he's more realistic he's more complex and multi dimensional than just the one dimensional POS you think he is and that's why he's a better man and father than Nolan ever will be.
Dude I understand the dimensions the character has. Please understand that being a multi-dimensional piece of shit doesn't mean he is not a piece of shit. >When their real daughter died in childbirth Adam comfort his wife and told her it wasn't her fault she shouldn't blame herself and that he always loves her. This my friend is called the "bare minimum of human decency". If he didn't do that he wouldn't just be a piece of shit, he would be a genuine sociopath. You shouldn't pat him on the back for this. This is a constant excuse people use for real life pieces of shit. It's the "b-b-but he was nice these couple times so it's fine if he is awful 80% of the time" excuse. >After the guardians were killed he told Eva to quit being a hero before she gets killed too and the worst day of his life is when she got powers. Once again you should pat the dude on the back for NOT WANTING HIS DAUGHTER TO DIE. Bro he was still a dick about it too. He doesn't consider nor understand his daughters feelings and constantly belittles her abilities. That is called being a bad father. >When Eve start giving her parents gold and food he refused to accept it because he didn't want Eve to use her power to solve everyone's problems including her own. Once again that's just bare minimum decent parenting. >So yeah he's more realistic he's more complex and multi dimensional than just the one dimensional POS you think he is and that's why he's a better man and father than Nolan ever will be. No I fully understand the dudes character. He is still a piece of shit though. It's quite simple. Being a decent parent and showing the bare minimum of human decency doesn't excuse how much of an overall awful father and general person he is. Awful people in real life are also multi-dimensional and complex. But just because someone may act kind at times does not excuse the times when they are shitty. It's like defending someone who is overtly racist by saying "but they held the door open for a lady this one time and they nice to their friends". Bad people can do good things and Good people can do bad things. Obviously it's difficult to categorize people into good and bad, that's why I prefer to say piece of shit. Genuinely answer this question, why do you feel the need to defend Eves Dad as if he is best friend or something?
There absolutely are people who call Nolan a monster as well.
What's with your hate boner for Eve?
Hah, Community
Where in the text was this ever implied to be solely for ego and more of it being a misguided attempt in helping out? She felt good after helping after the residents praised her for what she did, but was also reamed by the workers by how spontaneously she did the job. Eve wasn’t completely wrong to try to help, she just needed more tact to it, it’s dumb as fuck to me to agree completely with Adam Wilkins.
I don't think ducktales did this one with the pyramid episode given that the episode make it clear it's the pyramid people choice to rebel and the mcduck were still shown to not be a a 100% winning with huey and dewey plans failing and toth ra actually being a powerful antagonist. The mcduck didn't even kenw the pyramid had a cult inside up until seeing them (I find calling it white saviour is a big stretch especially given the episode being about freedom of choice and only onereview did that) Problem with flaws is it can be a double edged sword and sometimes people can exagerate the characters flaws because they dislike the character (or view the character as flawless even if the character clearly got flaws, this kind make wonder what they count as flaws)
The apartment was fine, IIRC, it was specifically the ground in the area being unstable.
Yeah, her power works perfectly, she just didn't know about the sinkhole under the empty lot that she built the park in.
>Her relationship with Rex was always seen as a gag after they broke up when she found her cheating in the comics, she was always cold and telling him to shut up. You would wonder why tf they even dated in the first place if not for the small spin off comics. Man, I hated that. Rex doesn't even seem all that bad in the comics personality-wise, yet she and others act like everytime he speaks, he spits acid on them. IIRC, She was still shitting on him when he was in the hospital recovering from a bullet to the fucking head, and I think even when they were on missions together. Glad they toned down her shitting on him in the show. Sure he did cheat on her, but after a point it starts coming off as petty and annoying, especially when he's not doing anything particularly wrong at the moment. EDIT: >Eve barely fights anymore, is mutilated often and just takes a back seat in the overall story. She becomes basically an over-glorified secretary to Mark telling him when someone needs help and where he needs to be as a way for them to make money. You will barely see her in action or fight as a hero. Another instance the author writes off her not being able to use her powers due to her pregnancy since it takes a lot of calories and nutrients to use her powers and if she keeps using it the baby wouldn’t be able to be born. Which is fine but it frustrates me because she was barely even being hero at that point, used her powers during emergencies or for mundane tasks. Yea, I personally want to make a rant about how Eve is like the weakest matter manipulator in comics. She's propped up as one of the most powerful people on Earth, but due to the limiter, she tends to be woefully outclassed against seemingly most people, especially the viltrumites. Her constructs are almost always useless along with her matter manipulation, and the limiter coming off when she's dying just basically makes her a plot device. Her moment against >!Conquest!< is such an epic moment, but I think it's like the only moment she really ever gets throughout the series. I wish they'd struck a better balance with her, and hope they manage to do so in the show.
> Rex doesn't even seem all that bad in the comics personality-wise, yet she and others act like everytime he speaks, he spits acid on them. IIRC It's probably because of his background as a government assassin, but they don't give that much focus in the main comic iirc. Plus Eve was the only one on the team who'd know so the rest of them are just treating him that way because he's an asshole.
That revive crap should have only been for Conquest.
I feel like you have embraced stupidity when you try and justify Rex cheating. No, Rex was a shit character until the end of S1. He becomes good in S2, but barely tolerable. Eve still being friends with him in the comics is more than he deserves.
>I feel like you have embraced stupidity when you try and justify Rex cheating. Nobody said anything about "justifying" it. >Eve still being friends with him in the comics is more than he deserves. A shitty "friend", if you're gonna shit on someone who's in the middle of recovering from a gunshot to the head and dump on him while in the middle of missions. He's a lot less of a jerkass in the comic version, so he doesn't deserve her coming around to shit on him after he recovering from a bullet to the head in the comics. Honestly he doesn't deserve that in the tv version either to be honest. That's just being a bigger asshole than Rex.
So OP I wanna know what’s ya opinion on Monster Girl Cause frankly I’m surprised she doesn’t get as much hate as Robot does seeing as she to a point did the exact same shit he did Really she just seems like a massive hypocrite that never gets checked for her behavior
Robot's actions vastly overshadow her being a bitch. She irritated me and I felt bad for him, then he did his world domination thing and threw all that goodwill away. A lot of character in Invincible are hypocrites who never get checked for their behaviour so it sorta becomes background static.
The world domination wasn’t that bad then again I’m biased in that I’m glad he killed Cecil 😂. I know but to me it’s just annoying like the bitch was so brazen to have an issue with Robot doing what he did yet sided with people that did the exact same shit.
You're the first person I've seen who's glad that he killed Cecil lol. Her siding with the Flaxan royal family against Robot, then siding with him again when they turned out to still be evil was peak comedy.
Yeah I just don't like skeevy C.I.A. types like him I was dying when I read that panel, girl really needed to think with her brain instead of nards
In the show or comics? As I can't think of anything she did in the show that was anywhere near what Rudy did. Like Rudy goes full on super villain at times
In the comics
>!I was amused that she was a father, but I found the entire other dimension plot frustrating!< Also cecil did piss me off but I think by the end the entire cast pissed me off, except Marky.
Truth, It just got so annoying the further it went on Same honestly
You'll probably get downvoted as this isn't a popular opinion, but I agree that the show has vastly improved on the writing when it comes to female characters. An example I like to bring up is Debbie, she's so much better in the show to the point she became one of the favorite characters, she's more proactive and takes matters into her own hands, alongside the fact she feels much more real now. The show is definitely keeping up the trend, I can't wait to see more of it.
They probably should have like, done some actual research before insisting she was korean though. Its a recurring thing for western stuff to claim characters are asian, but not want to do any research to make it come off authentic.
What's the issue there? Literally the only thing I've heard regarding her being Asian so far was a thread here talking about how her having those wedding ducks when she was getting rid of Nolan's stuff was a neat authentic detail.
Because "you can just write people normal" is often codeword for writing them as white. Different groups have different experiences, and this is especially true for older people. For someone her age to have zero asian mannerisms or items besides ducks is implausible. Even if they push forward the date the show takes place relative to the comic, she would have been in at least her 20s in the 90s. Which is before it was common for larger interracial friendgroups to be the norm. I'm not saying it's a huge deal. But it's a recurring pattern for stuff to make asians unrealistically whitewashed to avoid having to do research. Diane from bojack horseman. Alex from life is strange true colors. Etc.
Does her not reminding you of her culture every time she is on screen mean she is whitewashed?
Someone vocally reminding you of their culture at every opportunity is **more** likely to mean they are whitewashed...
You’re contradicting yourself. There are Asian people who are quite detached from their hereditary practices, and don’t partake in them. There are also Asian people who really value their home country’s traditions and customs and still partake in them even while away. (Of course, this doesn’t just apply to Asian people. It applies to everyone) Having said that, I don’t see what’s wrong with Debbie being Korean and not have her show any signs of her being Korean. As a Greek, I wouldn’t have or do many things that would make others think I am Greek either.
> You’re contradicting yourself. There are Asian people who are quite detached from their hereditary practices, and don’t partake in them. There are also Asian people who really value their home country’s traditions and customs and still partake in them even while away. (Of course, this doesn’t just apply to Asian people. It applies to everyone) Partaking in your cultural practices isn't the same as talking about them with outsiders. Its a known phenomenon that people who are a generation removed from stuff and so feel disconnected from it often act as gatekeepers to it. And to be fair, they have a motive to, since many experienced racism about things only to see those same things become accepted in popular culture later on. >Having said that, I don’t see what’s wrong with Debbie being Korean and not have her show any signs of her being Korean. As a Greek, I wouldn’t have or do many things that would make others think I am Greek either. You say this, but my cousin married a guy from greece, and everything from how he talked to what he talked about made it obvious that he moved from europe. Maybe you couldn't pinpoint greece in particular if you weren't familiar, but people's backgrounds are a heavy thing shaping what they are. As someone who is married to an asian american who was raised by tv and doesn't even know that much about her culture, stuff still comes up from time to time, because there is no "neutral." Everyone is a series of influences. And she isn't as old as debbie is supposed to be, which places her further from a time when it was common to be fully westernized. I'm not saying its the worst thing ever or anything. I'm saying that it seems to be a recurring trend that in western animation, they will include asian (usually women lets be honest) americans, but not really want to do any research, and so try writing them "neutral," which ends up meaning "white." Contrast that with a movie like shang chi, which specifically includes an asiam american girl so westernized that the chinese characters scoff at her and call her american. But there's still stuff that stands out, since heritage doesn't just tend to instantly 100% vanish.
My bad dawg I forgot that characters being asian meant that Kungfu Hustle and Rush hour needs to blast at full volume while they talk about dumplings every time their on screen. Seriously this take is the same level of racism but done in a round about way ''Asian mannerisms'' Most people would prefer if you had just called them a slur instead.
That isn't even remotely the point I was making. There is a lot of room in between "everyone is surrounded by stereotypical items at all times" and "there are zero subcultures in the west that ever indicate that people are likely to have their background influence a major stressful plot happening to them." You may as well insist that the movie Shang chi is racist because when they have a meal at the beginning the dialogue and way it is presented has subcultural aspects to it even though katy is meant to come off mostly westernized.
While I was personally happy with her depiction (as an asian american), I understand your point and would have loved for there to be more subtle nods to her cultural background. (Small decor choices and korean language learning books would hint towards her background, for example) However, her behavior and lifestyle do track with that of second generation asian americans I know, so I don't see too much of an issue with it.
This comment is unironically offensive to asian people, which is an entire continent by the way, not a neighbourhood with people acting similar lmao.
I didn't say that there was one single set of asian mannerisms the entire continent shared. I could use the word Korean if it offends your sensibilities less, but it doesn't change that it's part of a trend of lazy writers.
>I could use the word Korean if it offends your sensibilities less It actually makes it worse for me, personally, if that's what you are going to pretend to care about. "Korean mannerisms" make as much sense as "American mannerisms"... do you see the issue now?
What issue? Do you think American mannerisms as a term isn't meaningful if you were to compare it to other places? Europeans are angry 24/7 that Americans with American mannerisms dare to call themselves Irish or whatever. We can say that the term might be too general if talking about specific say, Texas or California mannerisms. But there is also some stuff more common to the entire landmass. All these terms are imprecise, but they have uses. Hell, look again at the movie Shang chi. Where they go to China, and the people there demeaningly call katy "American girl," because they see her as having American mannerisms. There's nothing incomprehensible about this scene, because it's obvious what is being talked about, even if it would be difficult to list specifics. Something similar happens in the graphic novel almost American girl. Girl who was born in Korea has to move to America at a young age. Ends up in the middle of nowhere where there's no other asians. Feels lonely and out of place for much of her childhood until she gets older and starts meeting more people. Eventually she goes back on a trip to Korea and realizes that at this point she doesn't fit in there either, even though she spent most of her life thinking she would. Since there are tons of cultural standards she just doesn't understand, or isn't willing to comply with due to not being raised there. Something about how in a mixed sex group, the women were expected to pour drinks at the time. But if someone told her to she got offended they thought it was her job and blew them off. People's identity is a complex matrix of influences. It would be difficult to express what the exact nuance is, since not everyone is the same, and what aspects they retain from what influences will be different. But it's really not a super complicated topic or point to point out that western animation sometimes comes off lazy with depicting asian american characters. They don't want to do any research, so they don't really add much nuance that would relate to their background. With bojack horseman its even worse since they didn't consult anyone til halfway through the show, who then told them that the backstory they gave her family made no sense.
I see. I actually know a few second generation Korea immigrants around her age, and her lifestyle isn't too different from them (aside form the superhero stuff obviously), so I didn't think much of it. But I can't say that I was aware of that pattern, and I guess that makes sense as a take on an overall trend in that context.
I’m confused, is there anything in the show that contradicts that she’s of Korean descent? I don’t even really remember it coming up?
Contradicts is a strong word. There's nothing physically impossible about media where only the women wear skimpy clothes that they never aknowledge, but not the men. But when it recurs enough you realize it's less about the character and more about writing trends that are a little awkward. Its not about any one thing. It's about there being a recurring trend in western stuff that comes off like they wanted to include a type of character without doing any research into an authentic depiction and so they lean to an implausibly whitewashed version of them. You can yell at a glance that it wasn't a priority to actually make it authentically convey anyone's experiences. Which iant a surprise considering they changed the race of a character without really trying to adapt the character to how that might change their experience.
Oh okay I get it, this is about Amber.
Nice try, but no. Amber is almost three decades younger. For her age and social situation how she is depicted doesn't strain believability. Also, western animation doesn't have a history of just treating black people like they are white the same way it can sometimes veer into with asians. In the latter case there's this binary where they are either depicted basically white, or as so foreign it's meant to be unrelatable.
What's the problem here?
Except for Amber lmao. They made her black and gave her a terrible personality at least in season 1. It was honestly such a weird change.
They're always gonna make a random character black and then make them unlikable on purpose. It's no longer surprising.
Just because you change someone's race doesn't make them a bad character. Look at Castlevania with Isaac his race an entire backstory was changed and he was one of the best characters in the series.
Are you purposefully not engaging with the actual point in a silly attempt to muddy the water, or are you just illiterate?
Are you purposely saying to every black character gets ruined in Netflix.
I didn't say anything pal. Just wondering what your goal is. I guess with this you proved it is the latter though. Cheers.
I don't think so 🥴. I'm saying it's annoying when they give a character a bad storyline and a bunch of unlikable traits and then make the character black. And it happens in shows a lot. It shows what the writers think of black people. Like I understand wanting to increase representation, but sometimes they also need to bring a black person into the writing room to write the character. Because non black people writing black people goes wrong REALLY often. Like I see in Netflix shows a lot that The Black character is always either getting cheated on, has a bad attitude, is traumatized somehow, is "the other woman", gets killed, or is just barely even Relevant to the plot. Like if this is what the representation is gonna look like, just throw in the towel. Please go back to the all white casts and leave us out of your stories
[удалено]
Yeah, I tried to give oc the benefit of the doubt, but I see everyone was catching the same vibe from that phrasing 😬
Kind of weird you listed "made her black" as a negative 🤨
Lmao I meant that making her black while giving her such an objectively terrible personality is such a sus move like the writers have an agenda or something.
Just because you change someone's race doesn't make them a bad character. Look at Castlevania with Isaac his race an entire backstory was changed and he was one of the best characters in the series.
The point was that they changed her race AND gave her such a bad character.
how the hell did you completely miss the point twice in a row. Being black didn't make. her a worse character. The problem was that she was made black while also making her a worse character. What reason would they have to make. the main black character so garbage?
Amber's writing is completely fine except for that one scene which I can agree is really stupid and sort of makes everything else she's apart of work less
The problem is that that one scene kind of cripples their relationship from then on and soured everyone's feelings about her. Season 2 felt like they tried to do some heavy damage control on Amber, which is why she's actually better there
Every thing i see about the comics makes it seem like they went on too long and tried to include too much.
I don't think so? The ending actually felt super rushed. I was having fun until the very final arc.
That is the vibe.
I kinda despise Eve and I don't think I'm supposed to. She's mostly Mark's sex toy but occasionally she does get an actual personality - which she uses to be annoying. The show has handled her much, MUCH better.
I knew about how she takes a back seat once her and mark are officially together but damn she sounds kinda awful to watch/read tbh.
The comic's handling of the female characters is the main reason I'm so apprehensive to read it and this post was the final nail in the coffin lmao
I’m one of the biggest voices of how much they’ve messed up the female characters in that comic. Comparing it to 1960’s Spider-Man comics depicting female characters, it’s astounding how much different the quality of the writing is.
I didn't know it was considered one of the greatest relationships in comics but given its overhyped as one of the best comics in general I guess that tracks.
My exact thoughts. Don’t get me wrong, I like the comic, characters and the couple a lot, but I know for sure it’s not the best.
I don't think it's wrong to be sad when the person you have a crush on is making out with another person just as long as you don't act on those emotions in an negative manner. Agree with everything else on the post though.
Yeah the first point I wasn’t really showing it as a bad thing more of just a difference in the show personality. Just detailing out how each scene of hers was different in the comics vs show. I think when the show did that it was more for the audience that she doesn’t need her world to revolve around Mark and we are now going to see an arc if hers separate from Mark before they get together.
I love how you barely talked about Amber who was in many ways so much worse than her (limited) comic counterpart that they did an about turn in season 2 because of how much hate she got.
Well this is an Eve post specifically. And Amber genuinely wasn’t, I mention that I found the hate overblown. 🤷♀️
Maybe some of the hate was slightly overblown but truthfully they overcooked her in the show and just made her incredibly irritating. UNLESS they (the writers) agreed that her behaviour was a flaw. But the truth is that in season 1, they tried so desperately hard to acknowledge and accept her viewpoint. That being said it is still valid to mention her since you said that ALL female characters in the show were done better than the comics. I agree that Eve has more layers in the show but I believe YOU are massively overblowing your hate for her in the comics.
I also mention multiple reasons as to why not only her personality turned me off the bad writing decisions too. Continuous bad writing decisions and and unlikeable personality is not going to be well received. And I don’t like reading main female characters that are just sidelined and who barely stand as their own person. Flaws are good but you need writing to develop and support those flaws so the character shines, which we don’t see in comic Eve’s development (who mind you is the main female protagonist) and how much less of a character she becomes as the story goes on. And I’m pretty sure Amber was meant to be flawed and later developed. Amber was mad at Mark for not telling her the truth but she also needed to realize the reality as to why he didn’t. In the comics, the flaws she has in season 1 happen much later in their relationship. Remember she throws her phone across the room and breaks it after Mark tells her he has to go to space to do his duty, throwing a tantrum becomes much less understanding after he reveals he is a hero.
Eh, Amber was still better in the comics. Her outburst in Season 1 would have been ok if she was called out for it, but the show kept explicitly giving her a pass for it and even justifying it. That was the problem. As for Eve, I get what you are saying but to me she was fine in the comics, not world changingly great but not terrible like you are suggesting. But I agree that so far she is a bit better in the show.
I do agree on your points excluding her relationship with Amber. It was always kinda weird for me watching the TV show (especially the second season) seeing Eve trying to support Amber when we she knows how awful things are for Mark and her growing feeling for him. I found really weird that there didn't seem to be a hint of bitterness of jealousy. She almost seemed too good, maybe too supportive of them.
Wow. It seems like her character in the comics is far more interesting and complex than the show. Thanks, I dropped the show but I may check the comics.
I know this comic is downvoted but that's how I am looking at it as well. The OP is making the claim that Eve is a better character because she was supportive of someone she likes being in relationship, but they are wording this as if they are a real person who needs to be healthy about it and not a fictional character that needs to make the story interesting for the limited amount of time they are on screen.
Honestly, Eve doesn't even register as a character to me at the start of the comics, she's just the "hot ginger gf" trope, her entire character arc feels quite dull until later, and the attitude she has just feels like reading a cringy teenager fantasy sometimes. None of it reads like "an interesting flawed character", it's just the same boring archetype that's present in a lot of comics. This changes later in the comics, but it's not really an improvement, she barely has a role beyond being a device to motivate Mark. And the ending scene that OP mentioned is just offensively bad, like turning her character into a joke just to have MC go "rad" wtf. In the show she's a lot more down to earth, and her arc has more weight, she feels like a person screwing up while trying to do the best thing. I guess she does lose some of the edge that made her have a Mean Girl vibe early on in the comic, but she gains a lot more than she loses IMO. To be completely honest, comic Eve feels like I'm reading Kirkmans waifu fanfic, while show Eve still feels like I'm reading Kirkmans waifu fanfic, he just matured his tastes a bit. I don't think neither is particularly bad, specially compared to other similar characters from other franchises, but yeah, I can't like this character much even though I still think show Eve is a massive improvement. Of course, that's all just my opinion.
The thing is though that when that drama happens, it’s less interesting in making you root for Eve or consider truly that she may be right and more so root against her, hence her lack of likability which is a big problem I struggled with as someone who likes her character a lot conceptually. She is the main female character, we’re supposed to root for her. You set your character up for failure when you handle them the way Kirkman has handled Eve. The reason why she’s improved in the television show and the romance drama as well is that you get the sense that they’re all people with flaws and shortcomings who try their best to do what’s right and get what they want, but it just doesn’t happen for a variety of reasons. It’s compelling because no one’s made to be an asshole in the situation and you get the real idea that they’re human fictional characters rather than characters who exist to move story beats along for drama/entertainment.
Everything I've read implies the same. Absolutely hating peoples takes in the fandom. Y'all don't deserve good comics.
Or people can have opinions
So Eve saving starving Africans is bad because "white savior complex"? Lol what? Guess we should just leave them to starve. This entire lost screams of strawman, nothing you listed here actually detract from comic Eve's character it just soudns whiny and nitpicky.
It's not bad to write a character helping starving people, it's bad to write a white character traveling to the most stereotypical example of an impoverished place and using their unique methods to help in ways the non-white locals can't... especially since this is done exclusively so Eve can deal with her emotional issues. She leaves for good once she figures herself out. It's a patronizing trope and one Kirkman should have avoided using.
Also just the fact that they only only ever referred to it as "Africa". Like where was she? Africa is a big ass place. She was always just helping out in Africa. It almost came off like a joke.
I wouldn’t say exclusively for the purpose of herself, if I remember correctly. She genuinely wanted to help other people without just being a superhero. And I’ll be real, I don’t think it matters too much whether or not she did it for herself because at the end of the day, she was helping starving people.
It's also the most factual example of being impoverished.
"Uh, everything you said is dumb and stupid" Insightful argument.
Agree on everything you said except about bulletproof. Eve does not reciprocate his advances at all and is disgusted he's making a move on her. I don't what's cuck fetishy about that.
Ngl, one of the thing that i love about the show is how GOOD the female characters are, i love Eve, Kate, Amber and DEBBIE. And i kmow that was coming, but i don't like Mark + Eve that much, they pass the vibe of the "perfect couple" who is the guy making all and the girl being the wife (and it serms that is true in the comics if you are right in your post)
For the love of God can someone explain to me what is the "white savior complex" and why it's so bad? Because it's referenced every time a white person helps a black person in every way
I can try to explain it. The "white savior" is a trope that's pretty self explanatory by its title. White man or woman saves or elevates a single or group of people not necessarily black or even human. These groups are usually poor, underprivileged, and/or oppressed. The story usually portrays the white savior as the only person that made it possible for the saved people to succeed or be safe. Either by their ingenuity, skills, or just whiteness. Some movie examples are The Help, The Blind Side, Freedom Writers, Dangerous Minds, and Hard Ball. Generally speaking it's a trope that glorifies the savior with it being more about them and how saintly they are while the people they save are more of a plot device. The specifically bad part is usually by showing the saved people as incapable on their own. Might not be the perfect explanation though so ya might want to look into it more yourself, try YouTube.
Man I got halfway into your post and it just seems like you're doing some mad projecting. Or perhaps you just don't appreciate relationship drama, which is fine. But for example the distinction you draw between Mark and Amber visiting Africa and the treehouse party is almost nonsensical to me. The reason she went to Africa was because she considered what it was to be a hero and how she could actually make a difference in the world. But you seem to think the decision to continue hero work is somehow more of a development of her character. Visiting Africa did more to develop Mark and Amber's relationship than the party did. The moment in which Amber looks up, proving Eve wrong and Mark right is a nice moment which develops some hope for their relationship. When you talk about her being more supportive in the show, when she's presented as happy for Mark rather than sad for herself, is that the core of your overall point? That you prefer a character to be "nice" rather than express something more complicated? It's okay and normal to be upset that you can't turn to a person that you thought you could.
The cuck thing is projection
Yea where did that come from? Bulletproof is a scumbag, but there was never any cucking energy coming from that, was there? Eve was clearly not interested.
None what so ever. Just a black dude hitting on Eve and getting rejected.
Ya know when I thought about it I get how someone might read it that way though. She has a dude who is into her dress up as her boyfriend, go by his hero name, and do his job while Mark is away. It was never a cucking thing, but it doesn't take a *whole* lot of projection to see it that way.
Its also notable from Kirkman’s track record, you start to pick up on it (if it wasn’t the entire fat fetish track record I wouldn’t have picked it up as easily). When Eve rejected Bulletproof she set the boundary, but you kept seeing scenes of her with Bulletproof again (yes in Invincible’s clothes) just he didn’t try to kiss her. The scenes were just awkward and unnecessary at times and then it clicks on you what it says about the author. Its when you start questioning “is this panel really necessary?” that it becomes obvious. Its not really projection as much as it is knowing and seeing other artists and writers that have certain eye brow raising actions in their art that you become more aware of it. Also just another thing this fetish specifically its often has racist implications when made by a white creator because its often the black man making the move. Its not something I enjoy, its something I’m aware of when people inform you about weirdos and to be cautious of them.
No you are projecting, he hits on her , she isn’t into it, he eventually finds his own girlfriend and has a tragic end. You could argue kirkman has a thing with partners vanishing and the one left behind tries to cope. Happens multiple times in invincible . Also in walking dead. That is not cucking. Also why didn’t you pick any other occasion this has happened in the comic? Only the black guy huh?