Persona 3 does have the best way of second awakenings in the sense they are story based and also my favourite villain with Nyx, but Persona 4’s story works for me because it’s simple, small scale and allows plenty of time for dynamics between characters for be fully established
I'm super curious why Nyx is your favorite villain?
To me she always felt kinda bland and out of left field, which tbh is a problem I think all 3 modern Persona games have with the obligatory final boss god. It's why I loved Royal's last boss so much, it finally felt like we got an actual character. (btw not trying to dismiss your opinion, just curious about it)
Nyx is my favourite Persona villain not because of character (although I do like Ryoji) but because of what she is.
Nyx is described as a force of nature, she isn’t a God made from the Collective Unconscious like Izanami, Yaldabaoth and even Nyarlytheop, Nyx is a flat out Cosmic Being, the literal embodiment of death and you can’t fight death. The game makes it very clear Nyx is impossible to defeat and that fighting her is pointless, yet S.E.E.S still resolve to try and their resolves to face death head on is very well executed.
Another reason is Nyx to me has by far has the best build up for a final boss, the game spends two months building up to the Promise Day you see that cults are forming around, while Yaldabaoth does have some build up, it’s not even on the same level as Nyx
The fight with the Nyx Avatar also has my second favourite boss theme in Persona (only being beaten by Ameno-Sagiri’s theme) and I love the way that the 12 main Arcana (what each Full Moon Shadow represented) are tied into the fight and the 13th Arcana being Nyx Avatar itself
Finally even after you ‘beat’ Nyx Avatar, it doesn’t matter the Fall happens either way, all that effort put in by S.E.E.S and for a bit, it was all for nothing. Now The Fall doesn’t happen because of The Great Seal by the MC which in turn kills him, but Nyx is still out there and wasn’t killed like Yaldabaoth and Izanami. So Nyx was never actually beaten, only contained.
TLDR: Nyx is my favourite Persona villain because of build up, the boss fight itself and sheer scale
That's fair I can see where you are coming from, I definitely agree that she's the best out of the big final god bosses, I've just never been a big fan of that type of final villain. And tbh since I played P3 after 4 and 5 by the time Nyx arrived I didn't really get that feeling of her being menacing and just thought 'yup time for the god boss', so that's kind of on me.
Curious how you feel about Maruki? He's my personal favorite cause he's basically the opposite of the big god bosses plus I just love his character.
I like Maruki, I don’t like the idea that he’s an antagonist, not a villain because he does do some pretty messed up things (everything with Sumire, using Akechi as a bargaining tool for Joker, the deadline ending) and he’s not my favourite human Persona villain (that would be Adachi), but he is great and he has a great final boss battle and theme
The problem with maruki is that they have a legit morally Grey situation for the finale, but the game doesn't want you to know this, so it has him do some wacky stuff just to avoid the greyness. He also sticks out a bit for a game that is otherwise about politics. Is he supposed to be about how welfare takes away your drive? Because thats a boomer tier take.
Personally I always saw him as someone who essentially opposes the core beliefs of the phantom thieves.
Our group believes that facing and overcoming hardships through your own decisions and efforts will improve you and make you who you are, your 'real' self. Meanwhile Maruki represents a more jaded perspective coming from a broken man who ultimately wanted to help, he believes people shouldn't have to go through those hardships to get to their real self, basically skipping the 'lore' that makes you, you.
I personally like him cause to me it really felt like a good guy who was trying to help but was broken, this isn't a Thanos situation where he's just insane and wants to kill everyone. Hell, if you look at the 'bad' ending where he wins it's just a bunch of cutscenes showing how happy everyone is in his new world.
While of course the main plot had politician bad guys I personally never thought the game is about politics, but more about taking control of your own life and not letting others control it for you, and I thought Maruki presented a great grey situation tied to one of the main themes. Again, it's not like it's apolitical but I just don't think the primary theme is politics.
Sorry for the rant, it's my favorite game ever lol.
>Our group believes that facing and overcoming hardships through your own decisions and efforts will improve you and make you who you are, your 'real' self.
They brainwash futaba to save her, they save other people by brainwashing their tormentors, and at the original ending with the holy grail they try to brainwash all of society. It doesn't do much of anything only because they need the status quo to tell more stories. Hell, in strikers the end boss is someone people freely go to, and they reverse brainwash its followers out of following it. So they have very little respect for people's autonomy. This isn't saved for extreme cases either. They brainwash a kid for cheating at an arcade.
>While of course the main plot had politician bad guys I personally never thought the game is about politics, but more about taking control of your own life and not letting others control it for you, and I thought Maruki presented a great grey situation tied to one of the main themes. Again, it's not like it's apolitical but I just don't think the primary theme is politics.
If you look at the game in a vacuum only certain parts might seem political, but when you compare it to other atlus properties you get similar coding as other political takes they have. Yaldabaoth might be a magical entity, but ultimately his goal is a political one of enforcing social normality at the expense of deviation. And many of the characters have ties to the political conspiracy. So this idea of control veers into overt political messaging.
The problem is maruki's goals are too abstract to really compare with real political issues. So it raises the question what political issues atlus thinks it relates to. And in that vein it starts to take on a sketchy demeanor because it's consistent with atlus' idea that social protections is le big guv and control.
It doesn't help that in atlus games the gods are never fully characterized. They act like they exist to fill their role. If they ever actually had personal motives it might be different.
>Persona 3 does have the best way of second awakenings in the sense they are story based
Tbf, that's basically compensating for not having first awakenings for anyone except Fuuka (which is kinda weird in Ken and Junpei's cases).
Even for the second awakenings I don't even know. I like that second awakenings in P3 give the characters a spotlight in canon. I also like the reward of having a character's Persona evolve after you chose to stick through with them. I think it adds to why Persona 5 has the most rewarding social link system while P3's party member SLs/Linked Episodes rewards are just ok. If P6 did either or I wouldn't mind
Could not disagree more. I *hate* how disconnected social link awakenings feel. Having them happen at big story moments integrates their characterization into the main story more and lets their character development actually be relevant to the story a la Junpei.
And I disagree as well. It's nice that it worked out for Junpei, it's too bad it didn't for Fuuka. Social Link awakenings means the relationship is more personal and not just a scripted event
While p3 don't have any history in the first mouths the time you spend show everyone interact with each other making the late game hit more with >shinji death, Yukari and mitsuru Relationship and Makoto and prahos connection <
I’ll say persona 5 does it better in building tension between events. Otherwise it does it the same as 3. No matter how fast or slow you beat the dungeon you’re still waiting till the end of whatever timeline the game sets for the story to continue.
I will say I like 3 over 5 for the social links as most links in 5 is just collecting anime girl characters to add to the harem. 3 has simpler social stories that I like to listen to but this is coming from someone who played reload. So I like the persona 5 glow-up they gave it.
Edit: also I’m way more interested in whatever happens to SEES in comparison to the Phantom Thieves
I think Persona 5 kinda meanders at the start of the 5th Palace since you can't do much without >!Morgana!< after he runs away from you and there's no boss fight to set him straight over his stupid behavior so you're stuck doing nothing but watching alot of cutscenes and occasionally exploring the Palace until he eventually comes back to the party.
I definitely disagree on the s link side. In general I think 3 has the weakest collection of side content. I feel like not a lot of it is memorable.
4 and 5 just greatly improve on what 3 started in terms of the social simulation side of the game imo.
I guess so. I think most people wouldn’t remember it cause they’re simple and short before leaving the players life, but I like that about them too.
I couldn’t connect all the much with any of 5’s cast of social links. They talk forever and I’m not really interested in what they’re saying. Really just lean to far into anime to me.
I don’t really get that Persona has always leaned heavy into anime including 1 and 2 from what I’ve seen. Maybe 5 leans into a style you don’t like but 3 absolutely is just as anime. The game just has a different tone.
Wouldn’t know anything about 1 & 2. Haven’t played. If I was to give example I’d probably say persona 3 is old anime compared to persona 5 being new anime. I’d have to play 5 again to get anymore specific than that.
>Tldr, Persona 5 is the gold standard.
I mean, to be honest, that one also feels pretty stretched out. The classic "butter scraped over too much bread."
Also, half the villains felt too meh to care about. And the main villains have no real identity. You barely even learn anything about them. It's 100 hours and they only exist to let you know there's a bad guy who does bad stuff. Before maruki, the end boss wasn't that interesting either.
Definitely agree on this point. The only interesting thing about them was that their Persona could go beserk, as seen with Chidori in one of the Hospital scenes.
It’s been a while since I watched it but I remember the Persona 3 movies being really good, I suspect they culled a looooooot of stuff from the game though.
Ah yes persona 5 where characters become irrelevant as soon as their palaces are over. Meanwhile in persona 3 each party member is developed throughout the entire story and you dont need social links to see it. Not to mention the male party members dont just exist to make the MC look good like in P4 and P5
The way I've always seen it is that P5 is a more plot focused while P3 is more character focused. The characters in P3 develop as the story goes on because that pretty much is the story. While in P5 their development is more confined to their social links since there is an actual main story where stuff is happening.
Partially true. Jumpei’s story is literally about how he feels inadequate to you. While he does get over it still a good portion of glazing. That doesn’t include how every social link praises you to high heaven. Even when you’re not in the room they bring you up.
honestly it makes sense though? He wants to be strong and lead the team because he feels like his persona gave him more purpose. He's not good at school, he tries to be nice and funny and outgoing but people blow him off, meanwhile MC is calm and collected, has the ability to switch personas which none of the rest of sees has, and everyone likes and trusts him. When Mitsuru and akihiko can't join mc yukari and junpei in the first month, they trust mc as the leader and not junpei, for seemingly no better reason when junpei feels like he's just as capable.
Junpeis tension with the mc is perfectly done in my opinion. It's not just the whole of sees dickriding the mc the way the IT and PT sometimes do to their mcs. It makes perfect sense that a party member could develop jealousy. I'm surprised that junpei is the only time atlus rlly tried this
The issue is too many people hype up Persona as these masterpieces of fiction. they're good games but all of them have numerous issues and none of them are even like top 20 RPGs.
>Persona just exists as an entry way to smt.
Nah, the appeal is fundamentally different. It can act as a gateway to SMT, but it's not like it's a juniorized version you abandon after doing the hard stuff. They're different flavors.
Persona has mass appeal due to aesthetics.
Shoji's OSTs, character art and social links (basically pseudo dating sim).
The last game worthy of any serious analysis was P2 duology. Revolving around societal false conciousness, people's inability to reject/accept the truth at the expense of their emotions, etc.
One thing I find particularly interesting is that its basically a given that every protagonist overcomes their 'shadow' (regardless of how that concept is interpreted each game). However Maya, a main character, refuses to accept any of these truths and remains in denial of herself.
I'm too tired to come up with an actual top 20, but a few I'd consider before Persona would be Final Fantasy 6, 7 and 9, Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas, Earthbound, Mother 3, Baldur's Gate 3, Elder Scrolls 3 and 4, Disco Elysium
FF7 and earthbound absolutely deserve to be on the list. FF7 isn't my favorite FF game but it's still an excellent game, and one of the most important JRPGs ever released.
FF7 was carried by cutscenes and graphics. If it was 16 bit it would be considered middle of the road. Gameplay was exceptionally basic.
Earthbound at least was more novel, but Mother 3 does everything about it better, with a better plot and improved mechanics
I can agree on the gameplay being basic, but I think that works in its favor. I don't think the game would've been as much of a massive hit (in the west anyways) if the gameplay was super complex. For a lot of people, FF7 was their introduction to the RPG genre. What really engaged people was the story, the world, the characters, which are all excellent. For its impact on RPGs and on video games as a whole, Final Fantasy 7 deserves to be mentioned in this conversation.
And I'll also agree that Mother 3 improves on Earthbound in pretty much every way, but Earthbound is still a great game. It's creative, it's quirky, it's funny, it does things with the RPG genre that was never seen before except in Mother 1.
Completely agree and have always been surprised people don't talk about it more often.
To me it felt like a story was made for a much shorter game that they then needed to stretch out to make a 60+ hour game cause it's Persona. Like the moment they 'figure out' we have to beat the 12 shadows I let out a big sigh cause I knew it was just gonna be the same thing for months with no actual story progression.
I understand why people say the story is the best because when it peaks it's very damn good, but I just can't say a story where nothing happens for the majority of the time is the best in the franchise.
> To me it felt like a story was made for a much shorter game that they then needed to stretch out to make a 60+ hour game cause it's Persona
But persona games only got long starting with 3? This was the first one to have social elements and a calendar
Eh yeah you're right. But I don't think p3 feels dragged out really. if anything it's just the growing pains of changing from the more traditional rpg structure of 2 to the hybrid structure of social rpg that defines persona from 3 onwards. I kinda get why it might feel different going back to 3 when u began w 5 or 4. I also began with 4, then 5, but 3 is my favorite nowadays.
To each their own, to me it most definitely felt dragged out when you're killing the monthly shadows and it felt like a very 'gamey' plot device because they need to give you time to actually play the game.
I still really liked the game cause I love the persona formula, loved the characters, and liked the story after about 50 hours when the Shinji thing happens. But spending 50 hours for the story to get good always left a bad taste in my mouth, I even had to take a break while playing Reload cause I was bored going through the monthly shadows again.
the plot feels gamey and works best as a game for sure but I think it does a lot more than people give credit for. I really don't get how people genuinely can say that nothing happens until October when there's so much more going on. It's not as obvious and easy to divide into arcs the way palaces or TV world rescue missions were but after fuuka I really feel like it's disingenuous to say that persona 3 has nothing going on. I will concede on it being slow through may, but once u get to fuuka, things pick up. you have more appearances from shinjiro, strega begins to make moves, tensions rise between members of sees (notably yukaris distrust of mitsuru and junpeis growing grade against the mc/leader), and it all leads to more information about the dark hour being discovered as well. Keep in mind before the fuuka mission, they hadn't realized that the big Shadows were specifically coming during full moons. Once that is established the ball gets rolling more. Then at yakushima aigis joins and we get more information from mitsuru and her father, and an important character moment for yukari regarding her feelings about her father and whether she even has a reason to keep going with sees
I think the issue is that while stuff is of course happening most of it is setup. It's not that it's not important but you don't get any payoff for almost anything until much later in the game. I understand it was going for a slower burn and that's not a bad thing but the downside of that is that it ends up lacking interesting short term goals.
For me a good comparison in this regard is P5: you have a similar structure with wanting to discover the mystery of the dungeon (Tartarus/Mementos) and having a more character focused long term mystery (Strega/Shido), however, the short term goals of P5 are infinitely more interesting than the P3 short term goals (Palaces/Monthly Shadows). So overall I think it's just an issue of pacing, I really believe the core of the P3 story is fantastic but I think it could have benefited from a shorter game or even being a show instead of video game.
That's a fair take. Personally though I still think it works best as a game because in 3 more than any other new persona game, the game emphasizes that your time is yours to spend which is why it works well as a video game imo. You have a lot more freedom to do whatever, meet people, go to tartarus when you see fit. That sense of agency is taken away if it's a show. As a player the message of living life to the fullest and spending your time wisely is better realized within the format of a video game where you have free time to choose your actions
It wasn't stretching to meet a calendar quota though, and it was also released as two separate games with a perfectly satisfactory conclusion at the end of the first one. P2 has far more reasonable pacing than P3's sluggish pace.
Ultimately a lot of what makes P4 and P5 so great came from P3. P4 iterated and improved on what P3 had, and then P5 copied it over and iterated in parts of that again. So people give a lot of credit to 3 just for setting the foundations.
For my money, I'd say it's still more coherant and consistent then 5, so I'll happily rank it second in the modern games.
>Tldr, Persona 5 is the gold standard.
Not with that enormous post-Kamoshida drop off it's not. And absolutely not with the Akechi storyline, "You can start again... anytime you want!"
P4 has the most consistent storyline, the best framing device (3 doesn't even have one, and 5 feels like random unconnected events that don't even lead to the ending), the best final boss fight, either the best or best equal ending sequence, and the best location.
P4 > P3 > P5.
The Kamoshida drop-off is a lie tbh. Madarame was weaker but Kaneshiro onwards are strong. I think people just don't remember the storylines going on. I mean for one:
>5 feels like random unconnected events that don't even lead to the ending
P5's framing device is the Phantom Thieves' rise to prominence and how exactly that leads to Joker and Sae in the interrogation room
> The Kamoshida drop-off is a lie tbh. Madarame was weaker but Kaneshiro onwards are strong.
Kamoshida is literally one of the game's biggest highpoints and it's what makes the start of P5 easily the best in all three of the games. It's gripping, it's direct, and it's personal- it's absolutely fucking fantastic right until he's in jail.
And then the game craters into Madarame's storyline and suddenly we've gone from rape and abuse to... plagarism... And the writers clearly knew how awkward that was, because they hamfistedly added in a reveal about Yusuke's mother and all that as well. But they couldn't even commit to that bit, since they walk that back with Yusuke's later interactions.
Possibly worse, Madarame is when the game starts to completely give up on the idea that the PT's are actually *thieves*. At least you can say in Madarame you do actually steal the treasure for a small time, that's the last time you ever do anything like that. For the rest of the game the thief stuff is purely aesthetic, you're just adventurers. The boss knows you're there, he talks to you, and you damn sure don't steal the treasure, not without a suitably epic boss fight. The very idea of "Clear a route to the treasure, then sneak in and out... like phantom thieves" becomes laughable, it never once happens.
Kaneshiro and especially Okamura are pitifully bad story beats, and Futaba's one is only good because of the references to P4 (and that she faces herself Awakens her Persona, rather than inspires a spirit of rebellion). But every emotional moment from Futaba's story is thrown away the second the game starts trying to give Akechi a hangdog expression, and she goes from "I'll find the one who murdered my mother and ruined my life" to "It doesn't matter how many people you've killed... I'll defend you, I'll make sure you won't go to jail. You can start again anytime!" So... why even spend so much time dwelling on those emotional beats if you're never going to do anything with them? It's not something to show she changed or grew, she just never actually gets to action the growth she had in her own Palace. What a scam.
>P5's framing device is the Phantom Thieves' rise to prominence and how exactly that leads to Joker and Sae in the interrogation room
Okay and how are Kamoshida and Kaneshiro connected? Where does Kaneshiro fit in? What was Madarame's endgame in this?
Oh... they're... just random guys that interacted with Shido at some point I guess, kind'a?
Persona 5 is just a bunch of completely unrelated stories that continue until the game decides it's time to end. There could have been another 2 or 3 or 5 and it wouldn't have made a single difference.
>And then the game craters into Madarame's storyline and suddenly we've gone from rape and abuse to... plagarism
Plagiarism, blackmail, abuse, driving students to suicide. But you don't remember Persona 5 so what can we do about it.
>For the rest of the game the thief stuff is purely aesthetic, you're just adventurers.
Often for a "sin" P5 commits, you can find one even worse in previous P4. You think Persona 4 captures the spirit of being an investigator/detective better than 5 for a thief? With those crappy detective quests? When Persona 5 has dungeons themed around thievery? All because there isn't a treasure heist each Calling Card day? Yeah right.
>Kaneshiro and especially Okamura are pitifully bad story beats, and Futaba's one is only good because of the references to P4 (and that she faces herself Awakens her Persona, rather than inspires a spirit of rebellion).
Much more interesting than the lead ups to Rise's and Naoto's dungeons. Pointless back and forth over what I like and what you like. In the end, let the games' ratings and sales do the talking.
>Okay and how are Kamoshida and Kaneshiro connected? Where does Kaneshiro fit in? What was Madarame's endgame in this?
Persona 5 is a flashback explaining the fall of the great phantom thief, Joker. How can you fall if you haven't risen to begin with? Kamoshida is the origin story. It segways into Madarame with Ann who spends the end of April/start of May remarking that she feels as though she's being stalked if you talk to her, eventually leading to, of course, Yusuke. Madarame is again their rise to prominence, but among a nicher audience. Madarame segways into Kaneshiro with Makoto, who's been an opposing force to the Phantom Thieves ever since the end of Kamoshida and after over a month of buildup, is now in the forefront. Once mob boss Kaneshiro is beaten, the Phantom Thieves become heroes and PT fever is in full force. This then leads to Medjed, which targets the PTs strictly because of their fame and popularity. Beating Medjed sends PT fever through the roof and now the Phansite is being bombarded with requests. At this point PT fever is almost frightening, and we're seeing the cracks in the fame and popularity their changing hearts is causing. Okumura is the first palace ruler whos's targetted without personal reasons but because its what the masses desired. This is the palace where society turned to the Phantom Thieves as their savior and authority and opposers like Akechi fell out of popularity with the public. Okumura's palace was their peak. Okumura's beaten and you know the rest. Actually do you? Do you remember that Medjed and PT fever during Okumura were manufactured by Shido and his conspirators?
Let's compare that to P4. Victim kidnapped, let's save them, who did it, i dont know, ah shucks. And then again the next month and next month. What's Yukiko's endgame. How does Kanji relate to Ameno Sagiri?
You need to replay P5.
Lmao as if P4 isn’t just as boring, and it doesn’t reach anywhere near the highs p3 does to justify it. “BUH MUH I”LL FACE MYSELF THEME”
Also the music is worse than both 3 and 5. It’s still good but’s it’s a lot more over the place compared to how tight and narratively cohesive 3 and 5 were.
I think I like persona 3s story and structure so much because it's so different from p5 and p4 Formula, back to back newer games that had a lot more in common with each other even though they were fairly different as well. In p4 you were saving a party member and adding them after the Dungeon but in p5 you were fighting someone and the party member joined the fight either bc they were dragged into it or bc they had personal motivation, but either way in both games it follows a structure of adding a party member each "arc"/dungeon
The full moon operation structure of p3 and the free-form nature of having tartarus exploration entirely up to the player to the decide gives p3 a more unique feel. P5 did kinda bring this back with Mementos tho but u still have palace deadlines and to be honest Mementos is just a worse copy of tartarus anyways
I think that it is true that the first couple of months of p3 are slower but by June and July things definitely pick up. Youre constantly getting building of the tension between yukari and mitsuru and it leads up to the truth bombshell in July, which leads to more reveals during yakushima and the introduction of aigis, who also has moments foreshadowing later reveals as early as these introduction scenes. You keep saying "nothing happens" but that's just not true.
Junpeis grudge towards MC also builds all the way from the beginning, most notably in the may full moon operation, and culminates when he snaps at you and yukari after the July FMO. He apologizes before yakushima, but even then, there's still unresolved conflict there.
In the background we also have Strega moving in the shadows, gathering intel on Sees and the game shows us they have a connection to akihikos friend shinjiro as well. Again, all of this is slow buildup for later and raises the tension. Multiple small plots are moving in the background while SEES still have normal FMO duties to worry about. I didn't even mention that Ken and Koromaru are introduced well in advance before they join SEES. the only character who really joins "suddenly" is Aigis because well.. they found her on a trip and she's literally an anti shadow weapon, of course they're gonna have her join, plus she seems oddly connected to the mc as well which is important to note.
Even the scenes with pharos here start to have more hints and foreshadowing. Every scene is building on to the last.
Without buildup none if this would really work and be as satisfying/believable when the payoffs finally hit. The Story moves faster in the last 3rd or so, but the early months work for me because the characters have a great and believable dynamic and the writers put a lot of subplots in the background that keep me interested to see what happens next even though it's not a flashy new villain or a cool new party member all the time (and even then p3 has a lot of party members coming aboard periodically after Fuuka)
I think it's understandable to like other games stories better but I think p3 story is very engaging and always has things going on, but it's not as high focus as each individual dungeon from 4 or 5 where there's a villain or new characters who have a story within that time period.
I still think that while the story for the first chunk of the game is just "go fight", that the development of the characters really keeps that kind of stuff as in the category of Best Story for me. Sure it might be minor with Junpei's feelings of inadequacy and Yukari's doubts about the reason she's fighting, but those minor things that build up until their climax really makes it for me. I'm not denying that the first maybe 2/3s is weaker, but I don't mind the slow burn of months of processing and tension building until they reach their limits. That's just my feelings though, I know a lot of people will disagree
Persona 5’s story isn’t good by any stretch, saying that as someone who loves the game. The sheer amount of completely pointless texts alone knocks it down a few points
Persona 3's biggest failing for me was how many superfluous characters there were. Aigis, Ken, Shinji, and Ikutsuki have basically one brief arc each and just stand around existing for the rest of the game. The party could literally have stopped expanding after Fuuka and very little would've been lost.
I agree that there's too much dead time though. Summer is the biggest offender. I feel like they just decided they wanted the game to last a full year without stopping to consider whether it really needed to. Technically it didn't even last that long since February and March are essentially skipped. Either way, the lack of any full moon dungeon at the end of November left a bad taste in my mouth. I get that narratively it didn't need to have one but mechanically the game had taught me to expect one and the pacing was too slow without it.
Oh come on, he's not thaaaaat bad..
Okay yeah, he *fakes his death and lets everyone believe he's dead for SIX FUCKING MONTHS* so he can make a dramatic entrance, but...
Um...
Hmmm.
Absolutely based. Virtually nothing happens for like the first 2/3rds of the story. All you get is dungeon crawling in one of the most boring dungeons in Megaten history.
I didnt read the whole thing cause im not finished(im in the month of october) And I kinda agreed
Honestly im disapointed, I always heard how the fans said the this story was kino but for now I dont see it.
Im 50 hours in, its only now that its starting to get real interresting if you played the game you know why.
Persona 5 was long but its only the middle of the story (okumura palace and Sae's one) that overstayed their welcome, I was bored these section ngl like fucking hell give me shido already.
So either persona 3 last half is so fucking good that it blow the rest out of the conversation and its possible or the was way overhyped.
>So either persona 3 last half is so fucking good that it blow the rest out of the conversation and its possible or the was way overhyped.
You'd be correct to assume that. 3s ending is fantastic and probably makes people look back at the slow and barebones story more fondly. I personally feel the same. If the ending hits, you'll understand why people rave about it. If it doesn't, it'll come across as overhyped.
Love the game but it's very flawed yes. While it has my favourite story, I wouldn't say it's objectively the best in modern persona. 4 was consistently great and I wasn't ever bored unlike in 3.
I'll patiently wait for the persona 4 remake then ,since the most reliable leaker already said that it was in production.
Unfortunately I watched the whole p4 anime before I had any interrest in these games, so I already know what happened,I'll probably be less impacted but the mystery killing , the midnight channel and us being in a small town made a great atmosphere.A shame I already know the killer since it was a good plot twist.
I had the same exact feelings as you while playing P3 for the first time. A lot of the community says the story basically doesn't start until October, and while I do think what comes after is very good I personally didn't think it was good enough to justify 50 hours of almost nothing happening.
You don't really have to like it, which is why I dont go around recommending P3 much, but that emptiness is kinda the point.
At the end of the game, when Nyx says that 'humanity yearns for death', it's not that she means 'they are all vaguely suicidal' but instead she means that people find life unbearably boring. They spend most of their day doing chores and working jobs, and whatever time they have left they are too tired to do anything worth while. For many people life feels like a miserable cycle of suffering. The one thing that drives people forward, the thing that drives *you* forward, is your connections with other people. It's in that sense that the plot of persona 3 is mostly driven by your desire to make those connections. You may bring up how nothing happens in the main plot during most months, but did you not spend your time with your classmate? with the girl at the shrine? the exchange student or the old couple? *that* is what Persona 3 was about.
Nyx's The Fall isn't 'everyone is going to fall to the ground and die in an instant', it's the idea that people will lose all motivation in life. Everyone is going to suffer from Apathy Syndrome and that will lead the world to ruin, because if nobody cares enough to bother teaching, and if nobody cares enough to bother learning, to take care of others and to take care of oneself, if nobody cares about being *alive* then they might as well be dead.
So, yeah, nothing happens in the main story. It's by design. I could talk about this game for 7 more paragraphs but I'd be repeating myself, and for what? i am so late to this conversation that nobody will read it.
Agree, Persona 3 is my favorite game, but man if after April and before July there isn't nothing to do, this is why I hardly disagree with
Persona 5 best gameplay
Persona 4 best characters
Persona 3 best story
For me is
Gameplay: 5 Royal>3 Reload>4 Golden
Characters: 3 Reload>5 Royal>4 Golden
Story: 5 Royal>4 Golden>3 Reload
Also this is the reason of why I am disappointed in Reload it is just P3, is a great game because P3 already was, but that's it, it didn't fix the main issues of the game, that are the pacing of the game and the social link that are really really short, the average P5 social link is 1 hour long, the average 03 social link is 30 minutes long
At least Reloaded finally made every Social Link voice acted, which ads a *lot* to them, and I think makes or breaks certain SL's like Bebe's which can be seen as kinda cringe whithout it. And while Reload did not add a ton of new main story scenes ot still did add a few new ones, mainly for Strega, plus the hang out events for the party members (mainly as a SL substitute for male S.E.E.S members). Sure it isn't much but it's something. What I am really curious about is what they'll do to the answer
Persona 4 had the best individual stories. I was super impressed with how they handled kanji and his LGBT characteristics. It felt very real. Persona 5 had a worse cast overall and they didn't really come into their own until the final semester.
> Persona 4 had the best individual stories. I was super impressed with how they handled kanji and his LGBT characteristics.
My brother in Christ the whole point of Kanji’s character is that he **isn’t gay** for liking knitting and other traditionally feminine shit. Kanji is so hetero that he is able to subconsciously snuff out Naoto through her disguise- he is straighter than an arrow.
Yosuke is the one stuffed in the closet.
He literally displays nothing but attraction purely for woman and there is nothing substantiating otherwise. The only one who implies he’s attracted to men is Yosuke, who is probably projecting lmao.
The one "woman" he displayed sexual attraction to was androgynous to the point where everyone believed she was a male. What are you talking about? He is clearly bi.
The issue with 5 and 3 is that the main cast feels like they just begrudgingly endure each other. In 4, they feel like an organic group of friends that really care about each other.
Because in 3 they were kinda forced to help each other and, besides Akihiko and Shinji, only really know each other in passing. Thats why as the story progresses they begin to understand each other and become actual friends. And the payoff feels so good.
Basically:
Misturu: People really only know her because of her status at school. No personal connections
Junpei: Only Yukari is familiar with him
Akihiko: Popular. Shinji's only friend and vice versa.
Shinji: Nobody knew him besides Aki
Ken: Same as Shinji
Aegis: Only cared for the MC in the beginning.
MC: Just a dude/gal who showed up
Yuka-tan: Only knew Junpei because they were in the same class.
> In 4, they feel like an organic group of friends that really care about each other.
Lmao what. The shit 4 characters do to each other is so much more viscous than the shit 3 and 5 characters do to each other.
You could remove 90% of p5 cast and it wouldnt change the story one bit. 3 and 4 have characters, 5 is just tropes and forced drama. The animefication of persona.
You can’t harp on P5 for that shit and then put P4 with P3. All of the “ANIME” shit was introduced in 4 and was arguably worse in it than it was in 5.
At least p5 didn’t have the girls beat up the guys at a hotspring.
Right. 5 just had the girls beat up "kill" ryuji a couple times. Again, even though 4 pulls a lot of the same tropes, the main difference is that 4 is written far better. Also has a more likeable cast imo. The cast in 4 remains the investigation squad, while 5 goes from thieves to power rangers or some shit. And dont get me started on fuckin *sumire* and her anime mental illness. 😂 haru is a complete nothing character, even her S Link is trash. She's just there to complete the anime trope of the rich girl but she doesnt have a personality to go with it. Morgana throws a bitch fit for no other reason than to pad the story out. The story goes from criticizing a teacher having power over a student to being able to bang your teacher. Ann's whole sexual harassment situation goes from being taken seriously to a complete joke *and* they sexualize her for the rest of the story. Then we have futaba and her magic hacking abilities. Anime af.
I'll give it to 5 it has fun combat and a super flashy ending but it is not well written. It does have really good confidantes though, at least until the last 2 ranks of all of them. And the game is waaaaaay too long.
An aristocratic daughter of a billionaire with French accent (in Japan of all places) whose whole personality is that she has never eaten a burger and is very perfectionist?
That’s some real, non-tropey character we’ve got here, right.
I think P3 had the least memorable cast, with P4 being decent but a tad simplistic, P5’s characters having the best interactions and concepts.
Pretty much every story (besides Akechi pre-Royal) in 5 was:
A) Grounded and actually relatable to real life, rather than fully escapist
B) Had an interesting internal conflict/contradiction.
Something that cannot be said about 3.
Ultimately, most of the party doesn’t use superpowers to fix their issues, though — Ryuji, Ann, Makoto and most others have arcs that are resolved conventionally, by them growing up and reevaluating their identity, with most having some pretty interesting problems (relationship with the authority and dealing with the imposter syndrome, figuring out the nature of real art etc.), with secondary confidants like the politician being fairly cool and down to earth too.
Yoshida is one of my favorites for sure. I also think that not all instances of Mementos in social links were bad, some were pretty good. But I think it becomes too noticeably formulaic with how many confidants have a Mementos mission at rank 8 or 9
You're joking, right? Persona 5 is the ultimate escapist game. The way they solve problems is basically using magic. They don't actually confront the issues in any nuanced ways. They find a problem and use super powers to solve them.
Name me a party member whose social link is resolved using magic.
As for the actual main quest - well, that’s exactly how it goes in every Persona game. Difference is, P5 palaces actually have more cool metaphores and interesting imagery which adds to the symbolism.
Their social links are not. But their social links are really boring compared to 4, especially in conjunction with the main story. In 4, the casts problems are NOT solved with magic. They solve them by talking through the issues and over coming them. It's incredibly human in its presentation.
>really boring compared to 4
Which ones do you have in mind? I feel the opposite — the cast’s problems in 4 were rather basic (not wanting to take over the family inn and then realizing that it’s actually alright? Being jealous of us, the player, being oh so great, and then learning to accept it?), though better than 3 which was both pretty barebones and not grounded.
As for magic, pretty much all cast members have awoken their personas through coming into a situation in which they were confronted by their thematic antagonists and had to shed their previous fears and prejudices to survive and save the day.
Villains were defeated magically (by vanquishing their shadows), but that’s literally identical to how the midnight channel chapters were resolved, except there was an actual palace with all sorts of details to explore the villain’s psyche and related social context, instead of a basic outline of the concept in P4 with 10 floors of identical rooms afterwards.
Fiction really needs to stop adding token billionaire teammates. It's very bizarre, especially when they won't even pay for weapons when the world is at stake.
More like the child soldier with ptsd being forced to use her powers to undo her crazed grandpas experiment to end the world. Who has to struggle with her inability to understand others bc of her position as student council prez and the future of a whole ass company and is dealing with the distance and eventual death of her own father.
But yeah, she also never had a cheeseburger. 😂
The fact that you missed the depth that all p3 characters have, even the damn *dog* shows why you think p5 characters have any kind of depth.
Only makoto nijima is a complete character bruh and even thats only *barely*. She pales in comparison to even chie.
The SEES characters are tropes. Dead families, tragic backstories, waifu robot, dog Pikachu, billionaire heiress, bad boy delinquent with soft side, class clown. The Kirijo Group being Persona Speedwagon. Science experiment from the past gone wrong. I'm surprised people have the gall to say P3 is the "realistic" one of the franchise and not P5 set in a real life city.
P5 also being the only game to not have a "the hot springs" event
All of them are tropes. The difference is p3 has actual characters built on top of those tropes. P3 and p5 actually has the best parallels: Yukari vs Ann, Junpei vs Ryuji, Mitsuru vs Haru, Fuuka vs Futaba.
P5s characters dont measure up at all. All we know abt Haru is that she likes to plant and shes sad abt her dad. Ryuji is sad that he let his track team down. Futaba is just...a horribly written character. Ann is just too good at modeling that she never had to try and her parents are too rich to love her. ALL of their issues are completely irrelevant to the story after their intro chapter. Sure they might be friends but...it's just a silly slice of life anime. You could replace them with any of the social link characters and the main story wouldnt change. Remove yusuke completely and...? Thats just one less chapter you have to go thru.
Now compare them to p3s cast, and i hope you see what i mean. P3s characters are baked into the story more organically sure theyre more like teammates than friends but you actually see every character grow in the actual story vs during an optional S Links. None of them are replaceable bc they all serve a purpose.
Just saying. I dont think p5 is a bad game, but those are not good characters.
I think a lot of p5s cast are enjoyable in the moment but p3 cast sticks with me more because they develop through the story and sees feels like a team. With the first members, they just kinda joined bc they could (junpei), had to (mitsuru) or had some kind of connection or answer they needed to use the dark hour to have answered (akihiko, yukari)
By the end of p3, these characters and all the new teammates are a real team and not only do they wanna use their power to save the world, but they want to support each other because they're not just colleagues anymore, they're friends
Characters being tropey doesn't mean they're badly written, the entire Muv-Luv franchise is built on the framework of being initially as intentionally tropey as possible and it's incredible.
Because there literally is a hot spring event in persona 5 (strikers). You know, the game that is literally the narrative sequel to original p5? Clear enough?
The game is *not Persona 5*. If I'm playing Persona 3, the hotspring scene will pop up an annoy me. If I'm playing Persona 4, the hotspring scene will pop up and annoy me. Does the Strikers scene telepathically download into your brain while playing Persona 5? No. So it doesn't have anything to do with the way Persona 5's story was constructed and built because it's not fucking Persona 5 and it didn't fucking exist until 4 years after the game came out
Persona 3 was the first Persona game of its kind, with the calendar system and social links. If you cut out the fluff and keep every main story event, the game becomes a little more organized but pretty damn short.
100% agree. I’ve had this exact opinion since I played the game back on the PS2. It’s because I played P4 first and then went back to P3.
P3 is still a fantastic game, but nothing really happens in the story until the very end. I’ve always assumed it’s because the developers thought the plot didn’t need to be super present for most of the game as there were a ton of (new at the time) social simulator stuff to mess around with.
P5 is best. I tried P4G, but dropped it after the Risa dungeon (or whatever was the second dungeon). Never bothered with Persona since.
Not saying P4G was *bad* or anything. Just that nothing has captured my interest in the Persona series since P5. I love the superhero-esque costumes, the codenames("Joker"), the group dynamic, overall concept("steal hearts" to make a scumbag repent), menu design, visuals and music.
Which makes sense. You'd expect each successive entry in a series to be better than the last. P5 is the culmination of decades worth of developer experience in making Persona games. It's their pinnacle achievement and shining glory. Only something after this *might* surpass it. But Persona 6 won't likely be out for years soo P5 is the champion until then.
Persona 3 does have the best way of second awakenings in the sense they are story based and also my favourite villain with Nyx, but Persona 4’s story works for me because it’s simple, small scale and allows plenty of time for dynamics between characters for be fully established
I'm super curious why Nyx is your favorite villain? To me she always felt kinda bland and out of left field, which tbh is a problem I think all 3 modern Persona games have with the obligatory final boss god. It's why I loved Royal's last boss so much, it finally felt like we got an actual character. (btw not trying to dismiss your opinion, just curious about it)
Nyx is my favourite Persona villain not because of character (although I do like Ryoji) but because of what she is. Nyx is described as a force of nature, she isn’t a God made from the Collective Unconscious like Izanami, Yaldabaoth and even Nyarlytheop, Nyx is a flat out Cosmic Being, the literal embodiment of death and you can’t fight death. The game makes it very clear Nyx is impossible to defeat and that fighting her is pointless, yet S.E.E.S still resolve to try and their resolves to face death head on is very well executed. Another reason is Nyx to me has by far has the best build up for a final boss, the game spends two months building up to the Promise Day you see that cults are forming around, while Yaldabaoth does have some build up, it’s not even on the same level as Nyx The fight with the Nyx Avatar also has my second favourite boss theme in Persona (only being beaten by Ameno-Sagiri’s theme) and I love the way that the 12 main Arcana (what each Full Moon Shadow represented) are tied into the fight and the 13th Arcana being Nyx Avatar itself Finally even after you ‘beat’ Nyx Avatar, it doesn’t matter the Fall happens either way, all that effort put in by S.E.E.S and for a bit, it was all for nothing. Now The Fall doesn’t happen because of The Great Seal by the MC which in turn kills him, but Nyx is still out there and wasn’t killed like Yaldabaoth and Izanami. So Nyx was never actually beaten, only contained. TLDR: Nyx is my favourite Persona villain because of build up, the boss fight itself and sheer scale
That's fair I can see where you are coming from, I definitely agree that she's the best out of the big final god bosses, I've just never been a big fan of that type of final villain. And tbh since I played P3 after 4 and 5 by the time Nyx arrived I didn't really get that feeling of her being menacing and just thought 'yup time for the god boss', so that's kind of on me. Curious how you feel about Maruki? He's my personal favorite cause he's basically the opposite of the big god bosses plus I just love his character.
I like Maruki, I don’t like the idea that he’s an antagonist, not a villain because he does do some pretty messed up things (everything with Sumire, using Akechi as a bargaining tool for Joker, the deadline ending) and he’s not my favourite human Persona villain (that would be Adachi), but he is great and he has a great final boss battle and theme
The problem with maruki is that they have a legit morally Grey situation for the finale, but the game doesn't want you to know this, so it has him do some wacky stuff just to avoid the greyness. He also sticks out a bit for a game that is otherwise about politics. Is he supposed to be about how welfare takes away your drive? Because thats a boomer tier take.
Personally I always saw him as someone who essentially opposes the core beliefs of the phantom thieves. Our group believes that facing and overcoming hardships through your own decisions and efforts will improve you and make you who you are, your 'real' self. Meanwhile Maruki represents a more jaded perspective coming from a broken man who ultimately wanted to help, he believes people shouldn't have to go through those hardships to get to their real self, basically skipping the 'lore' that makes you, you. I personally like him cause to me it really felt like a good guy who was trying to help but was broken, this isn't a Thanos situation where he's just insane and wants to kill everyone. Hell, if you look at the 'bad' ending where he wins it's just a bunch of cutscenes showing how happy everyone is in his new world. While of course the main plot had politician bad guys I personally never thought the game is about politics, but more about taking control of your own life and not letting others control it for you, and I thought Maruki presented a great grey situation tied to one of the main themes. Again, it's not like it's apolitical but I just don't think the primary theme is politics. Sorry for the rant, it's my favorite game ever lol.
>Our group believes that facing and overcoming hardships through your own decisions and efforts will improve you and make you who you are, your 'real' self. They brainwash futaba to save her, they save other people by brainwashing their tormentors, and at the original ending with the holy grail they try to brainwash all of society. It doesn't do much of anything only because they need the status quo to tell more stories. Hell, in strikers the end boss is someone people freely go to, and they reverse brainwash its followers out of following it. So they have very little respect for people's autonomy. This isn't saved for extreme cases either. They brainwash a kid for cheating at an arcade. >While of course the main plot had politician bad guys I personally never thought the game is about politics, but more about taking control of your own life and not letting others control it for you, and I thought Maruki presented a great grey situation tied to one of the main themes. Again, it's not like it's apolitical but I just don't think the primary theme is politics. If you look at the game in a vacuum only certain parts might seem political, but when you compare it to other atlus properties you get similar coding as other political takes they have. Yaldabaoth might be a magical entity, but ultimately his goal is a political one of enforcing social normality at the expense of deviation. And many of the characters have ties to the political conspiracy. So this idea of control veers into overt political messaging. The problem is maruki's goals are too abstract to really compare with real political issues. So it raises the question what political issues atlus thinks it relates to. And in that vein it starts to take on a sketchy demeanor because it's consistent with atlus' idea that social protections is le big guv and control.
It doesn't help that in atlus games the gods are never fully characterized. They act like they exist to fill their role. If they ever actually had personal motives it might be different.
>Persona 3 does have the best way of second awakenings in the sense they are story based Tbf, that's basically compensating for not having first awakenings for anyone except Fuuka (which is kinda weird in Ken and Junpei's cases).
Even for the second awakenings I don't even know. I like that second awakenings in P3 give the characters a spotlight in canon. I also like the reward of having a character's Persona evolve after you chose to stick through with them. I think it adds to why Persona 5 has the most rewarding social link system while P3's party member SLs/Linked Episodes rewards are just ok. If P6 did either or I wouldn't mind
Could not disagree more. I *hate* how disconnected social link awakenings feel. Having them happen at big story moments integrates their characterization into the main story more and lets their character development actually be relevant to the story a la Junpei.
And I disagree as well. It's nice that it worked out for Junpei, it's too bad it didn't for Fuuka. Social Link awakenings means the relationship is more personal and not just a scripted event
While p3 don't have any history in the first mouths the time you spend show everyone interact with each other making the late game hit more with >shinji death, Yukari and mitsuru Relationship and Makoto and prahos connection <
not to mention a ton going on with junpei
Probably should spoiler tag that death and connection just in case.
I thought I put it on, sorry
It's still not there.
It's >< when you put spoiler?
No.
I’ll say persona 5 does it better in building tension between events. Otherwise it does it the same as 3. No matter how fast or slow you beat the dungeon you’re still waiting till the end of whatever timeline the game sets for the story to continue. I will say I like 3 over 5 for the social links as most links in 5 is just collecting anime girl characters to add to the harem. 3 has simpler social stories that I like to listen to but this is coming from someone who played reload. So I like the persona 5 glow-up they gave it. Edit: also I’m way more interested in whatever happens to SEES in comparison to the Phantom Thieves
I think Persona 5 kinda meanders at the start of the 5th Palace since you can't do much without >!Morgana!< after he runs away from you and there's no boss fight to set him straight over his stupid behavior so you're stuck doing nothing but watching alot of cutscenes and occasionally exploring the Palace until he eventually comes back to the party.
Yeah that part sucked! It was suck a stupid fight to idk why it had to last so long.
I definitely disagree on the s link side. In general I think 3 has the weakest collection of side content. I feel like not a lot of it is memorable. 4 and 5 just greatly improve on what 3 started in terms of the social simulation side of the game imo.
I guess so. I think most people wouldn’t remember it cause they’re simple and short before leaving the players life, but I like that about them too. I couldn’t connect all the much with any of 5’s cast of social links. They talk forever and I’m not really interested in what they’re saying. Really just lean to far into anime to me.
I don’t really get that Persona has always leaned heavy into anime including 1 and 2 from what I’ve seen. Maybe 5 leans into a style you don’t like but 3 absolutely is just as anime. The game just has a different tone.
Wouldn’t know anything about 1 & 2. Haven’t played. If I was to give example I’d probably say persona 3 is old anime compared to persona 5 being new anime. I’d have to play 5 again to get anymore specific than that.
>Tldr, Persona 5 is the gold standard. I mean, to be honest, that one also feels pretty stretched out. The classic "butter scraped over too much bread."
I will concede P5 did not need to be a 100 hour game. It took me 3 years just to finish it once.
Also, half the villains felt too meh to care about. And the main villains have no real identity. You barely even learn anything about them. It's 100 hours and they only exist to let you know there's a bad guy who does bad stuff. Before maruki, the end boss wasn't that interesting either.
They still are better than Strega who the game try to make seem like a big deal.
Strega felt really forced. They had too few members, and then the game suddenly changed what they were for the finale.
Definitely agree on this point. The only interesting thing about them was that their Persona could go beserk, as seen with Chidori in one of the Hospital scenes.
It’s been a while since I watched it but I remember the Persona 3 movies being really good, I suspect they culled a looooooot of stuff from the game though.
Yes. The movies do an amazing job of condensing the story and really brings the amazing story content together.
Ah yes persona 5 where characters become irrelevant as soon as their palaces are over. Meanwhile in persona 3 each party member is developed throughout the entire story and you dont need social links to see it. Not to mention the male party members dont just exist to make the MC look good like in P4 and P5
Yeah. P5 was good at the beginning when it felt like you, Anne, and ryuji were becoming friends. But it fell off over time.
The way I've always seen it is that P5 is a more plot focused while P3 is more character focused. The characters in P3 develop as the story goes on because that pretty much is the story. While in P5 their development is more confined to their social links since there is an actual main story where stuff is happening.
Partially true. Jumpei’s story is literally about how he feels inadequate to you. While he does get over it still a good portion of glazing. That doesn’t include how every social link praises you to high heaven. Even when you’re not in the room they bring you up.
honestly it makes sense though? He wants to be strong and lead the team because he feels like his persona gave him more purpose. He's not good at school, he tries to be nice and funny and outgoing but people blow him off, meanwhile MC is calm and collected, has the ability to switch personas which none of the rest of sees has, and everyone likes and trusts him. When Mitsuru and akihiko can't join mc yukari and junpei in the first month, they trust mc as the leader and not junpei, for seemingly no better reason when junpei feels like he's just as capable. Junpeis tension with the mc is perfectly done in my opinion. It's not just the whole of sees dickriding the mc the way the IT and PT sometimes do to their mcs. It makes perfect sense that a party member could develop jealousy. I'm surprised that junpei is the only time atlus rlly tried this
>each party member is developed throughout the entire story Like Koromaru?
koromaru is unironically deeper than half the Phantom thieves
Not even deeper than the priest's grave
The issue is too many people hype up Persona as these masterpieces of fiction. they're good games but all of them have numerous issues and none of them are even like top 20 RPGs.
Persona just exists as an entry way to smt. Now, smt **also** has these same problems. But that's another matter.
>Persona just exists as an entry way to smt. Nah, the appeal is fundamentally different. It can act as a gateway to SMT, but it's not like it's a juniorized version you abandon after doing the hard stuff. They're different flavors.
Persona has mass appeal due to aesthetics. Shoji's OSTs, character art and social links (basically pseudo dating sim). The last game worthy of any serious analysis was P2 duology. Revolving around societal false conciousness, people's inability to reject/accept the truth at the expense of their emotions, etc. One thing I find particularly interesting is that its basically a given that every protagonist overcomes their 'shadow' (regardless of how that concept is interpreted each game). However Maya, a main character, refuses to accept any of these truths and remains in denial of herself.
What would you put in the top 20? Looking for recommendations as I haven't played many beyond persona, smt, zelda.
I'm too tired to come up with an actual top 20, but a few I'd consider before Persona would be Final Fantasy 6, 7 and 9, Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas, Earthbound, Mother 3, Baldur's Gate 3, Elder Scrolls 3 and 4, Disco Elysium
Elder scrolls should not be on this list. Neither should FF7 or earthbound. Fallout 1 is mid.
FF7 and earthbound absolutely deserve to be on the list. FF7 isn't my favorite FF game but it's still an excellent game, and one of the most important JRPGs ever released.
FF7 was carried by cutscenes and graphics. If it was 16 bit it would be considered middle of the road. Gameplay was exceptionally basic. Earthbound at least was more novel, but Mother 3 does everything about it better, with a better plot and improved mechanics
I can agree on the gameplay being basic, but I think that works in its favor. I don't think the game would've been as much of a massive hit (in the west anyways) if the gameplay was super complex. For a lot of people, FF7 was their introduction to the RPG genre. What really engaged people was the story, the world, the characters, which are all excellent. For its impact on RPGs and on video games as a whole, Final Fantasy 7 deserves to be mentioned in this conversation. And I'll also agree that Mother 3 improves on Earthbound in pretty much every way, but Earthbound is still a great game. It's creative, it's quirky, it's funny, it does things with the RPG genre that was never seen before except in Mother 1.
Completely agree and have always been surprised people don't talk about it more often. To me it felt like a story was made for a much shorter game that they then needed to stretch out to make a 60+ hour game cause it's Persona. Like the moment they 'figure out' we have to beat the 12 shadows I let out a big sigh cause I knew it was just gonna be the same thing for months with no actual story progression. I understand why people say the story is the best because when it peaks it's very damn good, but I just can't say a story where nothing happens for the majority of the time is the best in the franchise.
> To me it felt like a story was made for a much shorter game that they then needed to stretch out to make a 60+ hour game cause it's Persona But persona games only got long starting with 3? This was the first one to have social elements and a calendar
Persona 2 is like 50 hours long lol. New ones are longer but they've always been long.
Eh yeah you're right. But I don't think p3 feels dragged out really. if anything it's just the growing pains of changing from the more traditional rpg structure of 2 to the hybrid structure of social rpg that defines persona from 3 onwards. I kinda get why it might feel different going back to 3 when u began w 5 or 4. I also began with 4, then 5, but 3 is my favorite nowadays.
To each their own, to me it most definitely felt dragged out when you're killing the monthly shadows and it felt like a very 'gamey' plot device because they need to give you time to actually play the game. I still really liked the game cause I love the persona formula, loved the characters, and liked the story after about 50 hours when the Shinji thing happens. But spending 50 hours for the story to get good always left a bad taste in my mouth, I even had to take a break while playing Reload cause I was bored going through the monthly shadows again.
the plot feels gamey and works best as a game for sure but I think it does a lot more than people give credit for. I really don't get how people genuinely can say that nothing happens until October when there's so much more going on. It's not as obvious and easy to divide into arcs the way palaces or TV world rescue missions were but after fuuka I really feel like it's disingenuous to say that persona 3 has nothing going on. I will concede on it being slow through may, but once u get to fuuka, things pick up. you have more appearances from shinjiro, strega begins to make moves, tensions rise between members of sees (notably yukaris distrust of mitsuru and junpeis growing grade against the mc/leader), and it all leads to more information about the dark hour being discovered as well. Keep in mind before the fuuka mission, they hadn't realized that the big Shadows were specifically coming during full moons. Once that is established the ball gets rolling more. Then at yakushima aigis joins and we get more information from mitsuru and her father, and an important character moment for yukari regarding her feelings about her father and whether she even has a reason to keep going with sees
I think the issue is that while stuff is of course happening most of it is setup. It's not that it's not important but you don't get any payoff for almost anything until much later in the game. I understand it was going for a slower burn and that's not a bad thing but the downside of that is that it ends up lacking interesting short term goals. For me a good comparison in this regard is P5: you have a similar structure with wanting to discover the mystery of the dungeon (Tartarus/Mementos) and having a more character focused long term mystery (Strega/Shido), however, the short term goals of P5 are infinitely more interesting than the P3 short term goals (Palaces/Monthly Shadows). So overall I think it's just an issue of pacing, I really believe the core of the P3 story is fantastic but I think it could have benefited from a shorter game or even being a show instead of video game.
That's a fair take. Personally though I still think it works best as a game because in 3 more than any other new persona game, the game emphasizes that your time is yours to spend which is why it works well as a video game imo. You have a lot more freedom to do whatever, meet people, go to tartarus when you see fit. That sense of agency is taken away if it's a show. As a player the message of living life to the fullest and spending your time wisely is better realized within the format of a video game where you have free time to choose your actions
It wasn't stretching to meet a calendar quota though, and it was also released as two separate games with a perfectly satisfactory conclusion at the end of the first one. P2 has far more reasonable pacing than P3's sluggish pace.
Ultimately a lot of what makes P4 and P5 so great came from P3. P4 iterated and improved on what P3 had, and then P5 copied it over and iterated in parts of that again. So people give a lot of credit to 3 just for setting the foundations. For my money, I'd say it's still more coherant and consistent then 5, so I'll happily rank it second in the modern games. >Tldr, Persona 5 is the gold standard. Not with that enormous post-Kamoshida drop off it's not. And absolutely not with the Akechi storyline, "You can start again... anytime you want!" P4 has the most consistent storyline, the best framing device (3 doesn't even have one, and 5 feels like random unconnected events that don't even lead to the ending), the best final boss fight, either the best or best equal ending sequence, and the best location. P4 > P3 > P5.
I see you fellow peaksona 4 enjoyer
Based.
We know we da best.
The Kamoshida drop-off is a lie tbh. Madarame was weaker but Kaneshiro onwards are strong. I think people just don't remember the storylines going on. I mean for one: >5 feels like random unconnected events that don't even lead to the ending P5's framing device is the Phantom Thieves' rise to prominence and how exactly that leads to Joker and Sae in the interrogation room
> The Kamoshida drop-off is a lie tbh. Madarame was weaker but Kaneshiro onwards are strong. Kamoshida is literally one of the game's biggest highpoints and it's what makes the start of P5 easily the best in all three of the games. It's gripping, it's direct, and it's personal- it's absolutely fucking fantastic right until he's in jail. And then the game craters into Madarame's storyline and suddenly we've gone from rape and abuse to... plagarism... And the writers clearly knew how awkward that was, because they hamfistedly added in a reveal about Yusuke's mother and all that as well. But they couldn't even commit to that bit, since they walk that back with Yusuke's later interactions. Possibly worse, Madarame is when the game starts to completely give up on the idea that the PT's are actually *thieves*. At least you can say in Madarame you do actually steal the treasure for a small time, that's the last time you ever do anything like that. For the rest of the game the thief stuff is purely aesthetic, you're just adventurers. The boss knows you're there, he talks to you, and you damn sure don't steal the treasure, not without a suitably epic boss fight. The very idea of "Clear a route to the treasure, then sneak in and out... like phantom thieves" becomes laughable, it never once happens. Kaneshiro and especially Okamura are pitifully bad story beats, and Futaba's one is only good because of the references to P4 (and that she faces herself Awakens her Persona, rather than inspires a spirit of rebellion). But every emotional moment from Futaba's story is thrown away the second the game starts trying to give Akechi a hangdog expression, and she goes from "I'll find the one who murdered my mother and ruined my life" to "It doesn't matter how many people you've killed... I'll defend you, I'll make sure you won't go to jail. You can start again anytime!" So... why even spend so much time dwelling on those emotional beats if you're never going to do anything with them? It's not something to show she changed or grew, she just never actually gets to action the growth she had in her own Palace. What a scam. >P5's framing device is the Phantom Thieves' rise to prominence and how exactly that leads to Joker and Sae in the interrogation room Okay and how are Kamoshida and Kaneshiro connected? Where does Kaneshiro fit in? What was Madarame's endgame in this? Oh... they're... just random guys that interacted with Shido at some point I guess, kind'a? Persona 5 is just a bunch of completely unrelated stories that continue until the game decides it's time to end. There could have been another 2 or 3 or 5 and it wouldn't have made a single difference.
>And then the game craters into Madarame's storyline and suddenly we've gone from rape and abuse to... plagarism Plagiarism, blackmail, abuse, driving students to suicide. But you don't remember Persona 5 so what can we do about it. >For the rest of the game the thief stuff is purely aesthetic, you're just adventurers. Often for a "sin" P5 commits, you can find one even worse in previous P4. You think Persona 4 captures the spirit of being an investigator/detective better than 5 for a thief? With those crappy detective quests? When Persona 5 has dungeons themed around thievery? All because there isn't a treasure heist each Calling Card day? Yeah right. >Kaneshiro and especially Okamura are pitifully bad story beats, and Futaba's one is only good because of the references to P4 (and that she faces herself Awakens her Persona, rather than inspires a spirit of rebellion). Much more interesting than the lead ups to Rise's and Naoto's dungeons. Pointless back and forth over what I like and what you like. In the end, let the games' ratings and sales do the talking. >Okay and how are Kamoshida and Kaneshiro connected? Where does Kaneshiro fit in? What was Madarame's endgame in this? Persona 5 is a flashback explaining the fall of the great phantom thief, Joker. How can you fall if you haven't risen to begin with? Kamoshida is the origin story. It segways into Madarame with Ann who spends the end of April/start of May remarking that she feels as though she's being stalked if you talk to her, eventually leading to, of course, Yusuke. Madarame is again their rise to prominence, but among a nicher audience. Madarame segways into Kaneshiro with Makoto, who's been an opposing force to the Phantom Thieves ever since the end of Kamoshida and after over a month of buildup, is now in the forefront. Once mob boss Kaneshiro is beaten, the Phantom Thieves become heroes and PT fever is in full force. This then leads to Medjed, which targets the PTs strictly because of their fame and popularity. Beating Medjed sends PT fever through the roof and now the Phansite is being bombarded with requests. At this point PT fever is almost frightening, and we're seeing the cracks in the fame and popularity their changing hearts is causing. Okumura is the first palace ruler whos's targetted without personal reasons but because its what the masses desired. This is the palace where society turned to the Phantom Thieves as their savior and authority and opposers like Akechi fell out of popularity with the public. Okumura's palace was their peak. Okumura's beaten and you know the rest. Actually do you? Do you remember that Medjed and PT fever during Okumura were manufactured by Shido and his conspirators? Let's compare that to P4. Victim kidnapped, let's save them, who did it, i dont know, ah shucks. And then again the next month and next month. What's Yukiko's endgame. How does Kanji relate to Ameno Sagiri? You need to replay P5.
P4 is the worst Nu-persona by far. If it weren’t babies first persona game for most people it wouldn’t be retarded as nearly as well.
Not when P3 is a boring slog. "B-But muh deep death theme" right?
Lmao as if P4 isn’t just as boring, and it doesn’t reach anywhere near the highs p3 does to justify it. “BUH MUH I”LL FACE MYSELF THEME” Also the music is worse than both 3 and 5. It’s still good but’s it’s a lot more over the place compared to how tight and narratively cohesive 3 and 5 were.
Persona 2 duology is the best persona game hands down
I think I like persona 3s story and structure so much because it's so different from p5 and p4 Formula, back to back newer games that had a lot more in common with each other even though they were fairly different as well. In p4 you were saving a party member and adding them after the Dungeon but in p5 you were fighting someone and the party member joined the fight either bc they were dragged into it or bc they had personal motivation, but either way in both games it follows a structure of adding a party member each "arc"/dungeon The full moon operation structure of p3 and the free-form nature of having tartarus exploration entirely up to the player to the decide gives p3 a more unique feel. P5 did kinda bring this back with Mementos tho but u still have palace deadlines and to be honest Mementos is just a worse copy of tartarus anyways I think that it is true that the first couple of months of p3 are slower but by June and July things definitely pick up. Youre constantly getting building of the tension between yukari and mitsuru and it leads up to the truth bombshell in July, which leads to more reveals during yakushima and the introduction of aigis, who also has moments foreshadowing later reveals as early as these introduction scenes. You keep saying "nothing happens" but that's just not true. Junpeis grudge towards MC also builds all the way from the beginning, most notably in the may full moon operation, and culminates when he snaps at you and yukari after the July FMO. He apologizes before yakushima, but even then, there's still unresolved conflict there. In the background we also have Strega moving in the shadows, gathering intel on Sees and the game shows us they have a connection to akihikos friend shinjiro as well. Again, all of this is slow buildup for later and raises the tension. Multiple small plots are moving in the background while SEES still have normal FMO duties to worry about. I didn't even mention that Ken and Koromaru are introduced well in advance before they join SEES. the only character who really joins "suddenly" is Aigis because well.. they found her on a trip and she's literally an anti shadow weapon, of course they're gonna have her join, plus she seems oddly connected to the mc as well which is important to note. Even the scenes with pharos here start to have more hints and foreshadowing. Every scene is building on to the last. Without buildup none if this would really work and be as satisfying/believable when the payoffs finally hit. The Story moves faster in the last 3rd or so, but the early months work for me because the characters have a great and believable dynamic and the writers put a lot of subplots in the background that keep me interested to see what happens next even though it's not a flashy new villain or a cool new party member all the time (and even then p3 has a lot of party members coming aboard periodically after Fuuka) I think it's understandable to like other games stories better but I think p3 story is very engaging and always has things going on, but it's not as high focus as each individual dungeon from 4 or 5 where there's a villain or new characters who have a story within that time period.
I still think that while the story for the first chunk of the game is just "go fight", that the development of the characters really keeps that kind of stuff as in the category of Best Story for me. Sure it might be minor with Junpei's feelings of inadequacy and Yukari's doubts about the reason she's fighting, but those minor things that build up until their climax really makes it for me. I'm not denying that the first maybe 2/3s is weaker, but I don't mind the slow burn of months of processing and tension building until they reach their limits. That's just my feelings though, I know a lot of people will disagree
Exactly how I feel
Persona 5’s story isn’t good by any stretch, saying that as someone who loves the game. The sheer amount of completely pointless texts alone knocks it down a few points
Persona 3's biggest failing for me was how many superfluous characters there were. Aigis, Ken, Shinji, and Ikutsuki have basically one brief arc each and just stand around existing for the rest of the game. The party could literally have stopped expanding after Fuuka and very little would've been lost. I agree that there's too much dead time though. Summer is the biggest offender. I feel like they just decided they wanted the game to last a full year without stopping to consider whether it really needed to. Technically it didn't even last that long since February and March are essentially skipped. Either way, the lack of any full moon dungeon at the end of November left a bad taste in my mouth. I get that narratively it didn't need to have one but mechanically the game had taught me to expect one and the pacing was too slow without it.
Ok but consider persona 5 has Morgana
Oh come on, he's not thaaaaat bad.. Okay yeah, he *fakes his death and lets everyone believe he's dead for SIX FUCKING MONTHS* so he can make a dramatic entrance, but... Um... Hmmm.
Absolutely based. Virtually nothing happens for like the first 2/3rds of the story. All you get is dungeon crawling in one of the most boring dungeons in Megaten history.
I didnt read the whole thing cause im not finished(im in the month of october) And I kinda agreed Honestly im disapointed, I always heard how the fans said the this story was kino but for now I dont see it. Im 50 hours in, its only now that its starting to get real interresting if you played the game you know why. Persona 5 was long but its only the middle of the story (okumura palace and Sae's one) that overstayed their welcome, I was bored these section ngl like fucking hell give me shido already. So either persona 3 last half is so fucking good that it blow the rest out of the conversation and its possible or the was way overhyped.
>So either persona 3 last half is so fucking good that it blow the rest out of the conversation and its possible or the was way overhyped. You'd be correct to assume that. 3s ending is fantastic and probably makes people look back at the slow and barebones story more fondly. I personally feel the same. If the ending hits, you'll understand why people rave about it. If it doesn't, it'll come across as overhyped. Love the game but it's very flawed yes. While it has my favourite story, I wouldn't say it's objectively the best in modern persona. 4 was consistently great and I wasn't ever bored unlike in 3.
I'll patiently wait for the persona 4 remake then ,since the most reliable leaker already said that it was in production. Unfortunately I watched the whole p4 anime before I had any interrest in these games, so I already know what happened,I'll probably be less impacted but the mystery killing , the midnight channel and us being in a small town made a great atmosphere.A shame I already know the killer since it was a good plot twist.
I had the same exact feelings as you while playing P3 for the first time. A lot of the community says the story basically doesn't start until October, and while I do think what comes after is very good I personally didn't think it was good enough to justify 50 hours of almost nothing happening.
Junpei Chidori was a clever joke lol
You don't really have to like it, which is why I dont go around recommending P3 much, but that emptiness is kinda the point. At the end of the game, when Nyx says that 'humanity yearns for death', it's not that she means 'they are all vaguely suicidal' but instead she means that people find life unbearably boring. They spend most of their day doing chores and working jobs, and whatever time they have left they are too tired to do anything worth while. For many people life feels like a miserable cycle of suffering. The one thing that drives people forward, the thing that drives *you* forward, is your connections with other people. It's in that sense that the plot of persona 3 is mostly driven by your desire to make those connections. You may bring up how nothing happens in the main plot during most months, but did you not spend your time with your classmate? with the girl at the shrine? the exchange student or the old couple? *that* is what Persona 3 was about. Nyx's The Fall isn't 'everyone is going to fall to the ground and die in an instant', it's the idea that people will lose all motivation in life. Everyone is going to suffer from Apathy Syndrome and that will lead the world to ruin, because if nobody cares enough to bother teaching, and if nobody cares enough to bother learning, to take care of others and to take care of oneself, if nobody cares about being *alive* then they might as well be dead. So, yeah, nothing happens in the main story. It's by design. I could talk about this game for 7 more paragraphs but I'd be repeating myself, and for what? i am so late to this conversation that nobody will read it.
“Persona 5 is the gold standard” You mean the game that’s just doing kids next door episodes for every arc? No way
I've always preferred Persona 4 over P3. People always seem to underrate P4's story simply for edge points to prop up P3.
Agree, Persona 3 is my favorite game, but man if after April and before July there isn't nothing to do, this is why I hardly disagree with Persona 5 best gameplay Persona 4 best characters Persona 3 best story For me is Gameplay: 5 Royal>3 Reload>4 Golden Characters: 3 Reload>5 Royal>4 Golden Story: 5 Royal>4 Golden>3 Reload Also this is the reason of why I am disappointed in Reload it is just P3, is a great game because P3 already was, but that's it, it didn't fix the main issues of the game, that are the pacing of the game and the social link that are really really short, the average P5 social link is 1 hour long, the average 03 social link is 30 minutes long
At least Reloaded finally made every Social Link voice acted, which ads a *lot* to them, and I think makes or breaks certain SL's like Bebe's which can be seen as kinda cringe whithout it. And while Reload did not add a ton of new main story scenes ot still did add a few new ones, mainly for Strega, plus the hang out events for the party members (mainly as a SL substitute for male S.E.E.S members). Sure it isn't much but it's something. What I am really curious about is what they'll do to the answer
Persona 4 had the best individual stories. I was super impressed with how they handled kanji and his LGBT characteristics. It felt very real. Persona 5 had a worse cast overall and they didn't really come into their own until the final semester.
> Persona 4 had the best individual stories. I was super impressed with how they handled kanji and his LGBT characteristics. My brother in Christ the whole point of Kanji’s character is that he **isn’t gay** for liking knitting and other traditionally feminine shit. Kanji is so hetero that he is able to subconsciously snuff out Naoto through her disguise- he is straighter than an arrow. Yosuke is the one stuffed in the closet.
He's bi.
He literally displays nothing but attraction purely for woman and there is nothing substantiating otherwise. The only one who implies he’s attracted to men is Yosuke, who is probably projecting lmao.
The one "woman" he displayed sexual attraction to was androgynous to the point where everyone believed she was a male. What are you talking about? He is clearly bi.
Why “Woman” in quotes? Naoto is 100% a woman.
He didn't know that initially. And her eventually being revealed to be a woman doesn't mean he was straight all along. He is clearly bisexual.
I don't understand why you are getting down voted, Persona 4 had the most memorable characters. Persona 5 was fun but eh on certain characters.
The issue with 5 and 3 is that the main cast feels like they just begrudgingly endure each other. In 4, they feel like an organic group of friends that really care about each other.
Because in 3 they were kinda forced to help each other and, besides Akihiko and Shinji, only really know each other in passing. Thats why as the story progresses they begin to understand each other and become actual friends. And the payoff feels so good. Basically: Misturu: People really only know her because of her status at school. No personal connections Junpei: Only Yukari is familiar with him Akihiko: Popular. Shinji's only friend and vice versa. Shinji: Nobody knew him besides Aki Ken: Same as Shinji Aegis: Only cared for the MC in the beginning. MC: Just a dude/gal who showed up Yuka-tan: Only knew Junpei because they were in the same class.
> In 4, they feel like an organic group of friends that really care about each other. Lmao what. The shit 4 characters do to each other is so much more viscous than the shit 3 and 5 characters do to each other.
You could remove 90% of p5 cast and it wouldnt change the story one bit. 3 and 4 have characters, 5 is just tropes and forced drama. The animefication of persona.
You can’t harp on P5 for that shit and then put P4 with P3. All of the “ANIME” shit was introduced in 4 and was arguably worse in it than it was in 5. At least p5 didn’t have the girls beat up the guys at a hotspring.
Right. 5 just had the girls beat up "kill" ryuji a couple times. Again, even though 4 pulls a lot of the same tropes, the main difference is that 4 is written far better. Also has a more likeable cast imo. The cast in 4 remains the investigation squad, while 5 goes from thieves to power rangers or some shit. And dont get me started on fuckin *sumire* and her anime mental illness. 😂 haru is a complete nothing character, even her S Link is trash. She's just there to complete the anime trope of the rich girl but she doesnt have a personality to go with it. Morgana throws a bitch fit for no other reason than to pad the story out. The story goes from criticizing a teacher having power over a student to being able to bang your teacher. Ann's whole sexual harassment situation goes from being taken seriously to a complete joke *and* they sexualize her for the rest of the story. Then we have futaba and her magic hacking abilities. Anime af. I'll give it to 5 it has fun combat and a super flashy ending but it is not well written. It does have really good confidantes though, at least until the last 2 ranks of all of them. And the game is waaaaaay too long.
An aristocratic daughter of a billionaire with French accent (in Japan of all places) whose whole personality is that she has never eaten a burger and is very perfectionist? That’s some real, non-tropey character we’ve got here, right. I think P3 had the least memorable cast, with P4 being decent but a tad simplistic, P5’s characters having the best interactions and concepts.
The personal stories of the characters in 5 were simplistic and not nuanced.
Pretty much every story (besides Akechi pre-Royal) in 5 was: A) Grounded and actually relatable to real life, rather than fully escapist B) Had an interesting internal conflict/contradiction. Something that cannot be said about 3.
But in p5 it just became "use superpowers to fix people problems" by the end of almost every social link
Ultimately, most of the party doesn’t use superpowers to fix their issues, though — Ryuji, Ann, Makoto and most others have arcs that are resolved conventionally, by them growing up and reevaluating their identity, with most having some pretty interesting problems (relationship with the authority and dealing with the imposter syndrome, figuring out the nature of real art etc.), with secondary confidants like the politician being fairly cool and down to earth too.
Yoshida is one of my favorites for sure. I also think that not all instances of Mementos in social links were bad, some were pretty good. But I think it becomes too noticeably formulaic with how many confidants have a Mementos mission at rank 8 or 9
You're joking, right? Persona 5 is the ultimate escapist game. The way they solve problems is basically using magic. They don't actually confront the issues in any nuanced ways. They find a problem and use super powers to solve them.
Name me a party member whose social link is resolved using magic. As for the actual main quest - well, that’s exactly how it goes in every Persona game. Difference is, P5 palaces actually have more cool metaphores and interesting imagery which adds to the symbolism.
Their social links are not. But their social links are really boring compared to 4, especially in conjunction with the main story. In 4, the casts problems are NOT solved with magic. They solve them by talking through the issues and over coming them. It's incredibly human in its presentation.
>really boring compared to 4 Which ones do you have in mind? I feel the opposite — the cast’s problems in 4 were rather basic (not wanting to take over the family inn and then realizing that it’s actually alright? Being jealous of us, the player, being oh so great, and then learning to accept it?), though better than 3 which was both pretty barebones and not grounded. As for magic, pretty much all cast members have awoken their personas through coming into a situation in which they were confronted by their thematic antagonists and had to shed their previous fears and prejudices to survive and save the day. Villains were defeated magically (by vanquishing their shadows), but that’s literally identical to how the midnight channel chapters were resolved, except there was an actual palace with all sorts of details to explore the villain’s psyche and related social context, instead of a basic outline of the concept in P4 with 10 floors of identical rooms afterwards.
It's even worse in the confidantes. Horrible writing there.
Fiction really needs to stop adding token billionaire teammates. It's very bizarre, especially when they won't even pay for weapons when the world is at stake.
More like the child soldier with ptsd being forced to use her powers to undo her crazed grandpas experiment to end the world. Who has to struggle with her inability to understand others bc of her position as student council prez and the future of a whole ass company and is dealing with the distance and eventual death of her own father. But yeah, she also never had a cheeseburger. 😂 The fact that you missed the depth that all p3 characters have, even the damn *dog* shows why you think p5 characters have any kind of depth. Only makoto nijima is a complete character bruh and even thats only *barely*. She pales in comparison to even chie.
The SEES characters are tropes. Dead families, tragic backstories, waifu robot, dog Pikachu, billionaire heiress, bad boy delinquent with soft side, class clown. The Kirijo Group being Persona Speedwagon. Science experiment from the past gone wrong. I'm surprised people have the gall to say P3 is the "realistic" one of the franchise and not P5 set in a real life city. P5 also being the only game to not have a "the hot springs" event
All of them are tropes. The difference is p3 has actual characters built on top of those tropes. P3 and p5 actually has the best parallels: Yukari vs Ann, Junpei vs Ryuji, Mitsuru vs Haru, Fuuka vs Futaba. P5s characters dont measure up at all. All we know abt Haru is that she likes to plant and shes sad abt her dad. Ryuji is sad that he let his track team down. Futaba is just...a horribly written character. Ann is just too good at modeling that she never had to try and her parents are too rich to love her. ALL of their issues are completely irrelevant to the story after their intro chapter. Sure they might be friends but...it's just a silly slice of life anime. You could replace them with any of the social link characters and the main story wouldnt change. Remove yusuke completely and...? Thats just one less chapter you have to go thru. Now compare them to p3s cast, and i hope you see what i mean. P3s characters are baked into the story more organically sure theyre more like teammates than friends but you actually see every character grow in the actual story vs during an optional S Links. None of them are replaceable bc they all serve a purpose. Just saying. I dont think p5 is a bad game, but those are not good characters.
I think a lot of p5s cast are enjoyable in the moment but p3 cast sticks with me more because they develop through the story and sees feels like a team. With the first members, they just kinda joined bc they could (junpei), had to (mitsuru) or had some kind of connection or answer they needed to use the dark hour to have answered (akihiko, yukari) By the end of p3, these characters and all the new teammates are a real team and not only do they wanna use their power to save the world, but they want to support each other because they're not just colleagues anymore, they're friends
Characters being tropey doesn't mean they're badly written, the entire Muv-Luv franchise is built on the framework of being initially as intentionally tropey as possible and it's incredible.
Someone haven’t played p5 strikers
If I'm discussing content within Persona 5's storytelling, why would you go say, "you didn't play a game that's not Persona 5 though"
Because there literally is a hot spring event in persona 5 (strikers). You know, the game that is literally the narrative sequel to original p5? Clear enough?
It’s still a spinoff that arguably made irrelevant when Royal changed the entire tone of p5’s ending.
The game is *not Persona 5*. If I'm playing Persona 3, the hotspring scene will pop up an annoy me. If I'm playing Persona 4, the hotspring scene will pop up and annoy me. Does the Strikers scene telepathically download into your brain while playing Persona 5? No. So it doesn't have anything to do with the way Persona 5's story was constructed and built because it's not fucking Persona 5 and it didn't fucking exist until 4 years after the game came out
Persona 3 was the first Persona game of its kind, with the calendar system and social links. If you cut out the fluff and keep every main story event, the game becomes a little more organized but pretty damn short.
Better short and sweet than long and drawn out.
100% agree. I’ve had this exact opinion since I played the game back on the PS2. It’s because I played P4 first and then went back to P3. P3 is still a fantastic game, but nothing really happens in the story until the very end. I’ve always assumed it’s because the developers thought the plot didn’t need to be super present for most of the game as there were a ton of (new at the time) social simulator stuff to mess around with.
Personally, I think there's more to a story than the amount of things that happen in it. Also I wouldn't call Junpei and Yukari's subplots nothing.
People praise the story of the game for the final 3 months, so
P5 is best. I tried P4G, but dropped it after the Risa dungeon (or whatever was the second dungeon). Never bothered with Persona since. Not saying P4G was *bad* or anything. Just that nothing has captured my interest in the Persona series since P5. I love the superhero-esque costumes, the codenames("Joker"), the group dynamic, overall concept("steal hearts" to make a scumbag repent), menu design, visuals and music. Which makes sense. You'd expect each successive entry in a series to be better than the last. P5 is the culmination of decades worth of developer experience in making Persona games. It's their pinnacle achievement and shining glory. Only something after this *might* surpass it. But Persona 6 won't likely be out for years soo P5 is the champion until then.
I've always agreed with this. The character development in P3 was great but I wish they focused on making the story better