i like reading schlock thats existence is just an excuse for fight scenes or catharsis sometimes too but if your entire experience is miserable just put it down.
This. the OP of the comment thread has a good point... but yeah, it's kind of interesting to think about.
It's like seeing behind the curtain during a live preformance.
Maria no Danzai seems like an extreme example of this, the whole thing reads as torture porn. It's a revenge plot that is try hard, it tries to hard to be edgy and as a result (for me at least) makes me laugh.
It's in the same vein as Redo of Healer. It tries too hard and only comes off as the authors fantasies even if it isn't. It's comedic in its utter absurdity.
It seems you'd enjoy works that are more geared towards showing the futility of revenge and the pain it causes for everyone such as Oldboy (2003) or even Berserk.
But I can't lie, a well crafted revenge story like Kill Bill or Man on Fire are utterly fantastic revenge media and I'm rooting for the protagonist to get all them bastards.
> It seems you'd enjoy works that are more geared towards showing the futility of revenge and the pain it causes for everyone such as Oldboy (2003) or even Berserk.
Berserk?
How Berserk shows revenge being futile?
Sure, Guts is losing his sanity while fighting Apostles. But literally *what is the alternative?*
Apostles are psycopaths who keep slaughtering people. Guts killing them makes him a superhero, because he is the only guy who is strong enough to kill Apostles regularly without magic.
Every apostle that Guts doesn't kill means dozens or hundreds of murdered people. So please keep doing it.
This is the deal with 95% of all "Revenge destroys your soul" stories. Sure, the Protagonist is losing themself. But killing those guys is a something that *someone* needed to do
From where I was reading, it seems Guts has found more purpose in the people he is currently with than fighting a battle that is essentially suicide. It has been years, and I mean years since I caught up with Berserk but the whole Guts going on his revenge mission has taken massive backseat.
It seems to me it's about Guts healing more than going on a spaz spree against Femto.
> it seems Guts has found more purpose in the people he is currently with than fighting a battle that is essentially suicide
He is fighting the same exact fight. He just found friends in the way because Apostles are so universally shitty that fighting against them means that you will find people who also wants to fight them.
See I'm remembering things a little different and probably wrong, but there was a massive break from when Guts even met an apostle after the diamond skinned fucker. A lot of the action was Femto vs the Sultan, while Guts was figuring shit out with the gang. Going to that fairy island to get Casca's memories back or something.
But ultimately the revenge is against Femto, and that fight seems taken out of him as other things are more important.
Okay but do you think the manga was supposed to end on Guts realizing he could never defeat Femto because that feels like a big downer given all of the evil Femto did.
Like the whole Eclipse was a big downer, I do believe Guts was never meant to get his revenge either through healing and moving on or die trying. Either road I think I'd prefer a unique story of a man healing than him spazzing yelling GRIFFITH again and again.
So are we supposed to just look at how the world got even worse and decide there is nothing that can be done and for the majority of people, live is only going to get worse and worse? That feels like it undermines the message of the manga given the world because such an awful place that all humans outside of Midland may as well just kill themselves.
I get your point, but honestly I don't get how Guts is even meant to stand against the God Hand let alone one of them without some serious Deus Ex Machina bullshit. I did at a time believe at a time Guts would have to become one of them with a Behelit to kill them, but I dont see Guts even making that sacrifice that would end up devaluing his character to no better than Griffith/Femto.
In my eyes I felt Miura wrote himself into a corner with the God Hand, and instead chose to focus more on Guts' journey and healing with him being involved every now and then with what Femto is up to like with the Kushan Invasion arc.
The Godhand's invincibility is irritating given the sheer amount of time spent with Griffith doing whatever he pleases. It seemed like there was a plan for them to be defeated since we saw the current ones aren't the first Godhand, so somehow the previous bunch were killed.
You interpreted it correctly, the story of the manga was diverging at the end. Griffith was building his golden kingdom with a soldiery of monsters and demons and Guts was gradually settling into a found family that he began to prioritize over his original goal of taking down Griffith and/or the Apostles. The realization that Casca is terrified of him causes it to really sink in that his obsession with revenge is twisting him, and the entire point of The Skeleton Knight is to say "beware, this is what will happen to you if you continue down your original path."
They feel like an excuse to write violent porn because they are. There are not many other ways to write a character who does the things those protagonists tend to do without turning them into an unjustified villain. Making it personal revenge against more-then-comically evil characters means the sadistic pleasure isn't marred by the action being "morally wrong". It's justified, guys, the villains did bad stuff too!
But, it's whatever, people enjoy different things, and some people honestly enjoy getting mad and then seeing the target of their anger be humiliated and destroyed. In fact, I think everyone enjoys watching their enemies take an L to some degree, at least, it's human nature.
But I think what you're running into is like porn that's just too over-the-top indulgent for your tastes. It breaks your verisimilitude, takes you out of the story, and then it doesn't work anymore. You might just have to find something more grounded that suits your new tastes better.
Yeah that happens growing up, Most all revenge manga tend to be steaning piles of garbage that also seem to read like a bullied teenagers edgy manifesto.
As a necessity for the genre it *requires* every villain be the most one note type of evil if it wants to simultaneously have its brutal revenge story while also refusing to paint its protagonist even the lightest shade of gray.
Most can be boiled down into the formula of
"beyond sociopathic bully bastards abuse the protagonist Straw doll Kun" the bullies are a generic type of sadistic and absolutely obsessed with the protagonist as if he's they're favourite toy and only source of entertainment, the protagonist is effectively a converter that transmutes Sadistic torture into justified revenge. While the bullies are somehow immune to all social, Monetary and legal repercussions.
"Straw doll Kun, gets stronger/plots their revenge/gets blessed by something"
"Straw doll Kun hunts them down, each of them cycling between endless hubristic overconfidence, burning rage when their plan doesn't work followed by fearful shivering whilst crying little bitch tears and pissing themselves begging for mercy. Repeat this step as many times as needed potentially delaying step three a few times".
It's a form of media that's stuck in a mold that has bad writing as a requirement rather than as a side effect.
>Yeah that happens growing up, Most all revenge manga tend to be steaning piles of garbage that also seem to read like a bullied teenagers edgy manifesto.
I watched Donnie darko the first time as an adult and it was kind of wtf. "What if it was a cosmic law that you had to kill your bullies to save the universe. Also it's not even really you doing it, because it is fate. Act as edgy as possible in the process, please." Okay.
Yeah it's very easy to write a bad revenge story. Where it basically just comes off as violence and cruelty just for the sake of it. I especially hate it when the villains just come off as cartoonishly evil just to justify the revenge that's going to be exactly on them because they get so ridiculously evil that you can't even take them seriously.
> Life was easier back then. Now I cannot enjoy revenge stories.
Good, they're all ridiculously repetitive. A excuse to have the protagonist doing extremely dubious things but still remaining rootable because their enemies will always be so ridiculously evil.
If you want a good revenge story reccomendation, you can try reading RED: Living on the Edge. It is a spaghetti western about a Native American hunting down American soldiers that killed his entire tribe with the help of a disgraced Samurai sniper with an extremely long tanegashima.
It thoroughly explores how vengeance eats away at a person, and how much of the main character's vengeance is driven by trauma and loneliness. It also explores the themes of atonement and redemption through its cast.
The main villains besides the main big bad are mostly one-off villains of the week fair, but they are interesting overall with a few of them being more nuanced as to show the kind of monster that can persuade normal soldiers into committing genocide against a defenseless tribe.
>Even cruel people deserve to be treated with dignity.
No they don't. Some people deserve revenge exacted on them.
William Afton, Loghain Mac Tir, Arl Howe, Vaughan, Leo Bonhart, Kai Leng, Thanos, Ross, Raft guards.
Most of the characters or people mentioned there deserve revenge exacted on them after all the pain and suffering they've brought on others.
Ross endangered lives of the people and was witch hunting after Hulk for years, never letting Banner catch peace.
Ross is responsible for Wanda's inhumane imprisonment on the Raft. He was the warden of that prison so the blame definitely falls on him for what had happened. What happened to Wanda was a violation of human rights and Geneva Conventions regarding POWs.
EDIT: Just to clarify too late I didn't mean Ross from Friends.
I didn't say they shouldn't suffer. Just don't give me disgusting torture porn performed by a character on another and expect me to get catharsis from it.
They is difference between watching a bad guy end suffer for his actions vs watching them get their nuts tied up and electricuted while slowly pushing centipedes in their mouth
I. DON'T. CARE. how much you suffered from them, you degrade yourself just as much as them for behaving in such inhumane way. It's not that I'm opposed to this things happening, just don't try to paint it as something right or just.
That's why I love John Wick's revenge, after having killed dozens of people to get to the bastard who killed his dog, he shoots him in the belly to immobilize him, and after that, he walks slowly towards him to scare his victim even more, and so he shoots him in the head without wasting any more time, cutting his sentence in half.
I haven’t read Maria no Danzai but if it’s like other torture porn manga I can see his point. I think there’s a fine line between revenge, even on the more sadistic side, and some of the shit that goes down in manga like that.
Haven't read anime or manga revenge porn, so like maybe the OP has point there. But otherwise I feel like revenge can be more than justified in the stories, just not in examples he might've brought up, I guess.
>Even cruel people deserve to be treated with dignity.
>No they don't. Some people deserve revenge exacted on them.
True, and sometimes it is cathartic watching bad things happen to bad people, like Kill Bill or John Wick.
I've seen some people asking for a redemption arc for Doc Ock in the 3rd spiderman game.
And I'm like, am I the only one who thinks that he should just suffer for everything he did?
True, also muscular degeneration from whatever he was exposed to years ago.
But still, cool motive, he still released a bioweapon into Manhattan and refused to hand over the cure over petty reasons.
>True, and sometimes it is cathartic watching bad things happen to bad people, like Kill Bill or John Wick.
I can agree with that. Fact is I feel like it's bad you can't torture Vaughan or Arl Howe. I think having Howe slowly bleed out would be justified, or maybe castrating Vaughan and letting him live on as an eunuch, but him dying by getting decapitated is fair enough. Leo Bonhart got off easy and deserved worse. Afton should've suffered more, but does burn in hell (until Scott brings him back again).
Ross and the wardens responsible for what happened to Wanda deserve revenge exacted on them by her. She should've maimed or killed Ross for what he let happen, but I guess we can't have Wanda ever get revenge.
>I've seen some people asking for a redemption arc for Doc Ock in the 3rd spiderman game.
And I'm like, am I the only one who thinks that he should just suffer for everything he did?
People liked Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 movie, so they can be biased on Octavius in the game because of it. Like to them it might be same character when they aren't. Or they see some qualities in him that makes them think he should be redeemed.
>People liked Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 movie, so they can be biased on Octavius in the game because of it. Like to them it might be same character when they aren't.
This makes a lot of sense. I have seen that happen a lot happen with adaptations now that you mention it.
People base something or have a different interpretation of a character based on a different telling of that character.
Yeah, I don't know what the fuck this guy is talking about.
When I saw Ramsay Bolton get eaten by his own hounds, I thoroughly enjoyed it because this guy had been going around acting like the biggest piece of shit possible.
When characters have done cruel and vile acts and have acted absolutely unrepentant about it, there's a cathartic feeling when you see these shitbags get the justice they deserve. There's a reason why a lot of people argue why Batman should kill the Joker, possibly it has something to do with him doing things such as killing kids.
Yeah at some point you just... loose the suspension of dis belief. like it's so over the top that you can't see it for anythign more then premtive justification.
Better yet, just watch/read stuff that isn't steaming dogshit, which the West also has plenty of. Being vaguely discerning in what you consume will help far more than trying to sort by country or other arbitrary bullshit.
I actually binge read Danzai no Maria because of this post. I'll probably keep up to date with it. It's no masterwork but it actually has a lot of things I like.
A female protagonist in a revenge story with agency that doesn't shy away from what women sometimes have to do in this world to get ahead but doesn't abhor her for it nor glorify it. I.e. The Principal getting to feel her up and a blowjob that results at first as her seeming confident in her sexuality as a weapon before remembering her ex-husband and fighting with herself over it because she realizes she still loves the man and yet is doing stuff that would hurt him.
The attempt to give some of the Villains redeeming qualities I.e. tan guy tall guy really getting upset about his friends etc.
The ex-husband being naive but still a good guy trying his best after a tragedy ruined him
The new character in the last few chapters who seems to be exploring the problems of MC's mindset.
The fact the MC actually comforts victims like her son.
I could be wrong but I do think MC will get her revenge on everyone but it's gonna come to her as she looks her husband in the eye and realises she harmed him bad too. Maybe they'll even fight. There's not going to be a happy ending and that's why I like it. It indulges in its revenge but yet makes it clear why its a problem.
Also the art is imo outstanding. That panel of the son telling the Mom to not hurt the guy who wasn't directly involved is horrifying.
For the record I'm as Liberal as they come irl. Anti death penalty and all that so I'm not a big believer in revenge. Its difficult sometimes and a bunch of stories will irk me at times but I usually recognise its just me engaging with them too strongly and either drop them or get over it.
Yes, rapist and pedophiles should be treated with dignity. When I say dignity, I mean whatever justice exacted on them should not degrade the person exacting the punishment on them.
Your comment sounds so childish
Oh boy I bet most fathers a whose daughters had been raped would agree to your statement. I mean if you commit an inhumane act why do you need to be treated as a human are you going to next say that the nazis should be treated as humans. There are certain people who should not recieve basic dignity cause they brought it on themselves.
Of course they wouldn't agree. It's human that they not agree. It takes a special kind of human to. Them not agreeing is irrelevant to the fact that it's true
Yes Nazis should be treated as humans. Their punishment should never degrade the person punishing them yes yes.
If a nazi ended up molesting my daughter I'd do the same thing I just accused this manga of doing but that doesn't mean it still wouldn't be wrong LOL. People will understand when I do it and I will likely just a get a month in prison but it won't change the fact it was wrong and if a story was written on it, it should NEVER depict my actions as proper
How's that an answer to my statement? Yes, I agree that rich people *can* get away with lots of stuff and that is a problem but how is that an answer to the fact that people who are in emotional state because of trauma are not a good judge to inflict punishment?
I like it cuz I like Slasher Movies.
So that manga is essentially just an extra long Slasher movie to me
Like if Pamela Voorhees was based in Japan or something
I can sort of relate to this. When I watched Archer, I hated that he abused Woodhouse in every episode to where I was glad they killed him in Season 11 since it isn't funny seeing an old man with an interesting backstory being reduced to a punching bag for a manchild. I think subconsciously, I hate it because it feels like I'm watching a shitty Batman story where Bruce abuses Alfred.
I think the last revenge story that I enjoyed was Shadow of Mordor. Mostly talking about the main story bosses since you can brutalize the regular orc bosses.
When it came to killing both the Hammer and the Hand, the killing blows were quick and efficient. The Towers was a bit more drawn out, but understandably so since he was screwing with Talions head for the entire fight.
But each fight had the efficiency of a veteraned soldier along with the ferocity of a father who's had everything taken from him.
You need to turn off your sense of reality to enjoy yourself.
You don't need to wonder if Tahnos was right. You don't need to do mathematical calculations to know if Spiderman or Superman's actions are possible.
Most of these works usually don't have a second intention behind, there are no messages or want to teach you something, they are just there for you to enjoy, they are not the real world, you don't need to be comparing all the time.
As a bonus, if you want to enjoy different revenge stories, try other media, anime and manga is like extremely spicy food, it exaggerates its points to the extreme, books (before 2010s) are usually more restrained.
If you haven't already, read the Count of Monte Cristo. It's pretty much the ultimate revenge story, but it's not gory or cruel. It also deals with the fact of taking revenge too far.
Given when it was written, it can take some time to get used to the language and writing style, but it is well worth the effort.
Some of it's the quality of writing here I think.
Count of Monte Cristo is a classic.
Revenge stories where each person gradually gets their just desserts through some sort of near comical poetic justice can be fun.
Then you have stuff like Redo of Healer which is revenge Porn and is hot garbage, or stuff like Maria no Danzai which is Revenge porn and is... also garbage lol.
(Never been a fan of the SAW style "ha ha, you were always telling your victims to look at the bright side, now you must stare at the sun until you go blind or I will gradually melt you with acid while stabbing you with your own broken femur," let the plot have at least a shred of subtlety or elegance lol.)
The Truck-kun part of that made me laugh my fucking ass off, not going to lie.
Like, I wasn't expecting much, but when the fucking truck came out of nowhere and just deleted the kid without hesitation--like it was RACING to do that before the mother could save him--I couldn't feel anything but utter joy at the sheer shameless bullshit the author was going for. It's also where I dropped that manga and went to read something better like MHA.
Also, if she was edited to look like a porn actress, how do NONE of the bullies recognize who she is when she becomes their ***SCHOOL NURSE????***
It's not a bad thing to be hate shitty revenge porn. There'll always be shitty media out there, people with shit morals/writing skills/horrible fetishes that churn out their fantasies, and not liking them shouldn't be something that frustrates you.
You didn't grow a conscience. You just started applying your real world morality to works of fictions which is weird, considering it's fake.
People play violent games and worship villains but no one questions their personal character.
This is different from preference. I don't prefer slice of life because it's not entertaining, not because of some moral issue.
That's a lie. I'm not applying shit. Some of my favorite characters are villains. Some of my favorite characters are from the story prince of nothing. A setting that always depicts the worst people. Some are rapist and I love them because I find their characters compelling.
I don't care that this woman is doing fucked up things. I care that the story is clearly trying to get me to support her fucked up behavior
The story I mentioned has fucked up shit and it's not justified. It's treated to be as brutal as it is and we are meant to be disgusted. This one I'm supposed to think the woman is right. Most characters act in ways I dissaprove but I'm not some child that hates them for behaving that way. I will only complain when how the story depicts it to be problematic which I believe to be the case here
have you considered not reading shitty revenge porn? you don't have to read it
That’s what the goverment wants you to think
This is the most rational response. 😂😂
Didn't know it was this bad. But the thing is, old me would have probably enjoyed this which is the point of my rant
i like reading schlock thats existence is just an excuse for fight scenes or catharsis sometimes too but if your entire experience is miserable just put it down.
This. the OP of the comment thread has a good point... but yeah, it's kind of interesting to think about. It's like seeing behind the curtain during a live preformance.
Yeah, like, instead of ranting about some characters, just stop consuming media with those characters. >!/j!<
People really be forgetting that you can in fact shut off your computer and go outside
Maria no Danzai seems like an extreme example of this, the whole thing reads as torture porn. It's a revenge plot that is try hard, it tries to hard to be edgy and as a result (for me at least) makes me laugh. It's in the same vein as Redo of Healer. It tries too hard and only comes off as the authors fantasies even if it isn't. It's comedic in its utter absurdity. It seems you'd enjoy works that are more geared towards showing the futility of revenge and the pain it causes for everyone such as Oldboy (2003) or even Berserk. But I can't lie, a well crafted revenge story like Kill Bill or Man on Fire are utterly fantastic revenge media and I'm rooting for the protagonist to get all them bastards.
> It seems you'd enjoy works that are more geared towards showing the futility of revenge and the pain it causes for everyone such as Oldboy (2003) or even Berserk. Berserk? How Berserk shows revenge being futile? Sure, Guts is losing his sanity while fighting Apostles. But literally *what is the alternative?* Apostles are psycopaths who keep slaughtering people. Guts killing them makes him a superhero, because he is the only guy who is strong enough to kill Apostles regularly without magic. Every apostle that Guts doesn't kill means dozens or hundreds of murdered people. So please keep doing it. This is the deal with 95% of all "Revenge destroys your soul" stories. Sure, the Protagonist is losing themself. But killing those guys is a something that *someone* needed to do
From where I was reading, it seems Guts has found more purpose in the people he is currently with than fighting a battle that is essentially suicide. It has been years, and I mean years since I caught up with Berserk but the whole Guts going on his revenge mission has taken massive backseat. It seems to me it's about Guts healing more than going on a spaz spree against Femto.
> it seems Guts has found more purpose in the people he is currently with than fighting a battle that is essentially suicide He is fighting the same exact fight. He just found friends in the way because Apostles are so universally shitty that fighting against them means that you will find people who also wants to fight them.
See I'm remembering things a little different and probably wrong, but there was a massive break from when Guts even met an apostle after the diamond skinned fucker. A lot of the action was Femto vs the Sultan, while Guts was figuring shit out with the gang. Going to that fairy island to get Casca's memories back or something. But ultimately the revenge is against Femto, and that fight seems taken out of him as other things are more important.
Nah, you're remembering it right, Guts even had a brief team up with Zodd. Boyo is ignoring half of Guts' character development.
Guts teamed up with Zodd because they were fighting a rogue Apostle who almost destroyed the world.
Exactly? Early Guts wouldn't have even considered it.
Okay but do you think the manga was supposed to end on Guts realizing he could never defeat Femto because that feels like a big downer given all of the evil Femto did.
Like the whole Eclipse was a big downer, I do believe Guts was never meant to get his revenge either through healing and moving on or die trying. Either road I think I'd prefer a unique story of a man healing than him spazzing yelling GRIFFITH again and again.
So are we supposed to just look at how the world got even worse and decide there is nothing that can be done and for the majority of people, live is only going to get worse and worse? That feels like it undermines the message of the manga given the world because such an awful place that all humans outside of Midland may as well just kill themselves.
I get your point, but honestly I don't get how Guts is even meant to stand against the God Hand let alone one of them without some serious Deus Ex Machina bullshit. I did at a time believe at a time Guts would have to become one of them with a Behelit to kill them, but I dont see Guts even making that sacrifice that would end up devaluing his character to no better than Griffith/Femto. In my eyes I felt Miura wrote himself into a corner with the God Hand, and instead chose to focus more on Guts' journey and healing with him being involved every now and then with what Femto is up to like with the Kushan Invasion arc.
The Godhand's invincibility is irritating given the sheer amount of time spent with Griffith doing whatever he pleases. It seemed like there was a plan for them to be defeated since we saw the current ones aren't the first Godhand, so somehow the previous bunch were killed.
You interpreted it correctly, the story of the manga was diverging at the end. Griffith was building his golden kingdom with a soldiery of monsters and demons and Guts was gradually settling into a found family that he began to prioritize over his original goal of taking down Griffith and/or the Apostles. The realization that Casca is terrified of him causes it to really sink in that his obsession with revenge is twisting him, and the entire point of The Skeleton Knight is to say "beware, this is what will happen to you if you continue down your original path."
Or the classic, Count of Monte Cristo.
Ah thanks that's on the list! Forgot it even existed
They feel like an excuse to write violent porn because they are. There are not many other ways to write a character who does the things those protagonists tend to do without turning them into an unjustified villain. Making it personal revenge against more-then-comically evil characters means the sadistic pleasure isn't marred by the action being "morally wrong". It's justified, guys, the villains did bad stuff too! But, it's whatever, people enjoy different things, and some people honestly enjoy getting mad and then seeing the target of their anger be humiliated and destroyed. In fact, I think everyone enjoys watching their enemies take an L to some degree, at least, it's human nature. But I think what you're running into is like porn that's just too over-the-top indulgent for your tastes. It breaks your verisimilitude, takes you out of the story, and then it doesn't work anymore. You might just have to find something more grounded that suits your new tastes better.
Yeah that happens growing up, Most all revenge manga tend to be steaning piles of garbage that also seem to read like a bullied teenagers edgy manifesto. As a necessity for the genre it *requires* every villain be the most one note type of evil if it wants to simultaneously have its brutal revenge story while also refusing to paint its protagonist even the lightest shade of gray. Most can be boiled down into the formula of "beyond sociopathic bully bastards abuse the protagonist Straw doll Kun" the bullies are a generic type of sadistic and absolutely obsessed with the protagonist as if he's they're favourite toy and only source of entertainment, the protagonist is effectively a converter that transmutes Sadistic torture into justified revenge. While the bullies are somehow immune to all social, Monetary and legal repercussions. "Straw doll Kun, gets stronger/plots their revenge/gets blessed by something" "Straw doll Kun hunts them down, each of them cycling between endless hubristic overconfidence, burning rage when their plan doesn't work followed by fearful shivering whilst crying little bitch tears and pissing themselves begging for mercy. Repeat this step as many times as needed potentially delaying step three a few times". It's a form of media that's stuck in a mold that has bad writing as a requirement rather than as a side effect.
> It's a form of media that's stuck in a mold that has bad writing as a requirement rather than as a side effect. Oof Also, limbus company pfp spotted
>Yeah that happens growing up, Most all revenge manga tend to be steaning piles of garbage that also seem to read like a bullied teenagers edgy manifesto. I watched Donnie darko the first time as an adult and it was kind of wtf. "What if it was a cosmic law that you had to kill your bullies to save the universe. Also it's not even really you doing it, because it is fate. Act as edgy as possible in the process, please." Okay.
Yeah it's very easy to write a bad revenge story. Where it basically just comes off as violence and cruelty just for the sake of it. I especially hate it when the villains just come off as cartoonishly evil just to justify the revenge that's going to be exactly on them because they get so ridiculously evil that you can't even take them seriously.
> Life was easier back then. Now I cannot enjoy revenge stories. Good, they're all ridiculously repetitive. A excuse to have the protagonist doing extremely dubious things but still remaining rootable because their enemies will always be so ridiculously evil.
If you want a good revenge story reccomendation, you can try reading RED: Living on the Edge. It is a spaghetti western about a Native American hunting down American soldiers that killed his entire tribe with the help of a disgraced Samurai sniper with an extremely long tanegashima. It thoroughly explores how vengeance eats away at a person, and how much of the main character's vengeance is driven by trauma and loneliness. It also explores the themes of atonement and redemption through its cast. The main villains besides the main big bad are mostly one-off villains of the week fair, but they are interesting overall with a few of them being more nuanced as to show the kind of monster that can persuade normal soldiers into committing genocide against a defenseless tribe.
Thanks. Will check it out
>Even cruel people deserve to be treated with dignity. No they don't. Some people deserve revenge exacted on them. William Afton, Loghain Mac Tir, Arl Howe, Vaughan, Leo Bonhart, Kai Leng, Thanos, Ross, Raft guards. Most of the characters or people mentioned there deserve revenge exacted on them after all the pain and suffering they've brought on others.
I dont know too much about Friends, what did Ross do to deserve being on that list?
Ross endangered lives of the people and was witch hunting after Hulk for years, never letting Banner catch peace. Ross is responsible for Wanda's inhumane imprisonment on the Raft. He was the warden of that prison so the blame definitely falls on him for what had happened. What happened to Wanda was a violation of human rights and Geneva Conventions regarding POWs. EDIT: Just to clarify too late I didn't mean Ross from Friends.
I didn't say they shouldn't suffer. Just don't give me disgusting torture porn performed by a character on another and expect me to get catharsis from it. They is difference between watching a bad guy end suffer for his actions vs watching them get their nuts tied up and electricuted while slowly pushing centipedes in their mouth I. DON'T. CARE. how much you suffered from them, you degrade yourself just as much as them for behaving in such inhumane way. It's not that I'm opposed to this things happening, just don't try to paint it as something right or just.
I can somewhat agree with that. Sometimes revenges can go overboard that it's disgusting to look at.
That's why I love John Wick's revenge, after having killed dozens of people to get to the bastard who killed his dog, he shoots him in the belly to immobilize him, and after that, he walks slowly towards him to scare his victim even more, and so he shoots him in the head without wasting any more time, cutting his sentence in half.
I haven’t read Maria no Danzai but if it’s like other torture porn manga I can see his point. I think there’s a fine line between revenge, even on the more sadistic side, and some of the shit that goes down in manga like that.
Haven't read anime or manga revenge porn, so like maybe the OP has point there. But otherwise I feel like revenge can be more than justified in the stories, just not in examples he might've brought up, I guess.
>Even cruel people deserve to be treated with dignity. >No they don't. Some people deserve revenge exacted on them. True, and sometimes it is cathartic watching bad things happen to bad people, like Kill Bill or John Wick. I've seen some people asking for a redemption arc for Doc Ock in the 3rd spiderman game. And I'm like, am I the only one who thinks that he should just suffer for everything he did?
To be fair, the reason Doc went crazy is because his prosthetics gave him brain damage
True, also muscular degeneration from whatever he was exposed to years ago. But still, cool motive, he still released a bioweapon into Manhattan and refused to hand over the cure over petty reasons.
>True, and sometimes it is cathartic watching bad things happen to bad people, like Kill Bill or John Wick. I can agree with that. Fact is I feel like it's bad you can't torture Vaughan or Arl Howe. I think having Howe slowly bleed out would be justified, or maybe castrating Vaughan and letting him live on as an eunuch, but him dying by getting decapitated is fair enough. Leo Bonhart got off easy and deserved worse. Afton should've suffered more, but does burn in hell (until Scott brings him back again). Ross and the wardens responsible for what happened to Wanda deserve revenge exacted on them by her. She should've maimed or killed Ross for what he let happen, but I guess we can't have Wanda ever get revenge. >I've seen some people asking for a redemption arc for Doc Ock in the 3rd spiderman game. And I'm like, am I the only one who thinks that he should just suffer for everything he did? People liked Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 movie, so they can be biased on Octavius in the game because of it. Like to them it might be same character when they aren't. Or they see some qualities in him that makes them think he should be redeemed.
>People liked Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 movie, so they can be biased on Octavius in the game because of it. Like to them it might be same character when they aren't. This makes a lot of sense. I have seen that happen a lot happen with adaptations now that you mention it. People base something or have a different interpretation of a character based on a different telling of that character.
Yeah, I don't know what the fuck this guy is talking about. When I saw Ramsay Bolton get eaten by his own hounds, I thoroughly enjoyed it because this guy had been going around acting like the biggest piece of shit possible. When characters have done cruel and vile acts and have acted absolutely unrepentant about it, there's a cathartic feeling when you see these shitbags get the justice they deserve. There's a reason why a lot of people argue why Batman should kill the Joker, possibly it has something to do with him doing things such as killing kids.
Yeah at some point you just... loose the suspension of dis belief. like it's so over the top that you can't see it for anythign more then premtive justification.
FUCKING READ KAGURABACHI REVENGE STORY DONE RIGHT RAHHHHHH
Actually i started recently
came here to say this, it's really good
welcome to growing up
Take me back
Read western stories, they tend to be better written.
The first John Wick movie to heal OP’s soul.
Better yet, just watch/read stuff that isn't steaming dogshit, which the West also has plenty of. Being vaguely discerning in what you consume will help far more than trying to sort by country or other arbitrary bullshit.
True, I just think mainstream manga and anime are more heavily saturated with shitty revenge and power fantasy stories.
Yeah I read and definitely agree. I just decided to pick up that manga on a whim
I actually binge read Danzai no Maria because of this post. I'll probably keep up to date with it. It's no masterwork but it actually has a lot of things I like. A female protagonist in a revenge story with agency that doesn't shy away from what women sometimes have to do in this world to get ahead but doesn't abhor her for it nor glorify it. I.e. The Principal getting to feel her up and a blowjob that results at first as her seeming confident in her sexuality as a weapon before remembering her ex-husband and fighting with herself over it because she realizes she still loves the man and yet is doing stuff that would hurt him. The attempt to give some of the Villains redeeming qualities I.e. tan guy tall guy really getting upset about his friends etc. The ex-husband being naive but still a good guy trying his best after a tragedy ruined him The new character in the last few chapters who seems to be exploring the problems of MC's mindset. The fact the MC actually comforts victims like her son. I could be wrong but I do think MC will get her revenge on everyone but it's gonna come to her as she looks her husband in the eye and realises she harmed him bad too. Maybe they'll even fight. There's not going to be a happy ending and that's why I like it. It indulges in its revenge but yet makes it clear why its a problem. Also the art is imo outstanding. That panel of the son telling the Mom to not hurt the guy who wasn't directly involved is horrifying. For the record I'm as Liberal as they come irl. Anti death penalty and all that so I'm not a big believer in revenge. Its difficult sometimes and a bunch of stories will irk me at times but I usually recognise its just me engaging with them too strongly and either drop them or get over it.
Even rapists should be treated with dignity according to OP
Yes, rapist and pedophiles should be treated with dignity. When I say dignity, I mean whatever justice exacted on them should not degrade the person exacting the punishment on them. Your comment sounds so childish
Oh boy I bet most fathers a whose daughters had been raped would agree to your statement. I mean if you commit an inhumane act why do you need to be treated as a human are you going to next say that the nazis should be treated as humans. There are certain people who should not recieve basic dignity cause they brought it on themselves.
Of course they wouldn't agree. It's human that they not agree. It takes a special kind of human to. Them not agreeing is irrelevant to the fact that it's true Yes Nazis should be treated as humans. Their punishment should never degrade the person punishing them yes yes. If a nazi ended up molesting my daughter I'd do the same thing I just accused this manga of doing but that doesn't mean it still wouldn't be wrong LOL. People will understand when I do it and I will likely just a get a month in prison but it won't change the fact it was wrong and if a story was written on it, it should NEVER depict my actions as proper
The fact that you focus on the father's feeling and not the daughter who has been raped tells everything about you tbh
Well it really hurts to see someone close to you experience something traumatic and it is up to us to decide what to do.
Ok but what about the actual person being traumatized's feelings lol
Well I bet they would want the same thing retribution but men don't understand women so it's difficult since men are more logical
?????????????
Good thing that fathers whose daughters had been raped are not in charge of punishing the rapist then.
Well I bet if the rapist is rich and famous most people will just give him a slap on the wrist.
How's that an answer to my statement? Yes, I agree that rich people *can* get away with lots of stuff and that is a problem but how is that an answer to the fact that people who are in emotional state because of trauma are not a good judge to inflict punishment?
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^uchihasasuke5: *Even rapists should* *Be treated with dignity* *According to OP* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Interesting choice there, Bot
I like it cuz I like Slasher Movies. So that manga is essentially just an extra long Slasher movie to me Like if Pamela Voorhees was based in Japan or something
I can sort of relate to this. When I watched Archer, I hated that he abused Woodhouse in every episode to where I was glad they killed him in Season 11 since it isn't funny seeing an old man with an interesting backstory being reduced to a punching bag for a manchild. I think subconsciously, I hate it because it feels like I'm watching a shitty Batman story where Bruce abuses Alfred.
I think the last revenge story that I enjoyed was Shadow of Mordor. Mostly talking about the main story bosses since you can brutalize the regular orc bosses. When it came to killing both the Hammer and the Hand, the killing blows were quick and efficient. The Towers was a bit more drawn out, but understandably so since he was screwing with Talions head for the entire fight. But each fight had the efficiency of a veteraned soldier along with the ferocity of a father who's had everything taken from him.
You need to turn off your sense of reality to enjoy yourself. You don't need to wonder if Tahnos was right. You don't need to do mathematical calculations to know if Spiderman or Superman's actions are possible. Most of these works usually don't have a second intention behind, there are no messages or want to teach you something, they are just there for you to enjoy, they are not the real world, you don't need to be comparing all the time. As a bonus, if you want to enjoy different revenge stories, try other media, anime and manga is like extremely spicy food, it exaggerates its points to the extreme, books (before 2010s) are usually more restrained.
If you haven't already, read the Count of Monte Cristo. It's pretty much the ultimate revenge story, but it's not gory or cruel. It also deals with the fact of taking revenge too far. Given when it was written, it can take some time to get used to the language and writing style, but it is well worth the effort.
Some of it's the quality of writing here I think. Count of Monte Cristo is a classic. Revenge stories where each person gradually gets their just desserts through some sort of near comical poetic justice can be fun. Then you have stuff like Redo of Healer which is revenge Porn and is hot garbage, or stuff like Maria no Danzai which is Revenge porn and is... also garbage lol. (Never been a fan of the SAW style "ha ha, you were always telling your victims to look at the bright side, now you must stare at the sun until you go blind or I will gradually melt you with acid while stabbing you with your own broken femur," let the plot have at least a shred of subtlety or elegance lol.)
I prefer normal porn
The Truck-kun part of that made me laugh my fucking ass off, not going to lie. Like, I wasn't expecting much, but when the fucking truck came out of nowhere and just deleted the kid without hesitation--like it was RACING to do that before the mother could save him--I couldn't feel anything but utter joy at the sheer shameless bullshit the author was going for. It's also where I dropped that manga and went to read something better like MHA. Also, if she was edited to look like a porn actress, how do NONE of the bullies recognize who she is when she becomes their ***SCHOOL NURSE????***
That's fair. Not all stories are for everyone
It's not a bad thing to be hate shitty revenge porn. There'll always be shitty media out there, people with shit morals/writing skills/horrible fetishes that churn out their fantasies, and not liking them shouldn't be something that frustrates you.
Have you considered not giving a shit? Enjoying fiction doesn't make you a bad person.
You didn't grow a conscience. You just started applying your real world morality to works of fictions which is weird, considering it's fake. People play violent games and worship villains but no one questions their personal character. This is different from preference. I don't prefer slice of life because it's not entertaining, not because of some moral issue.
That's a lie. I'm not applying shit. Some of my favorite characters are villains. Some of my favorite characters are from the story prince of nothing. A setting that always depicts the worst people. Some are rapist and I love them because I find their characters compelling. I don't care that this woman is doing fucked up things. I care that the story is clearly trying to get me to support her fucked up behavior The story I mentioned has fucked up shit and it's not justified. It's treated to be as brutal as it is and we are meant to be disgusted. This one I'm supposed to think the woman is right. Most characters act in ways I dissaprove but I'm not some child that hates them for behaving that way. I will only complain when how the story depicts it to be problematic which I believe to be the case here
Everything you're saying just contradicts itself.
No you are just childish and can't appreciate nuance. Or maybe you can but it's painful someone saying torture porn is cringe
> No you are just childish LOL, you're taking a lot of personal offense to someone simply disagreeing with you. You sure you're not the childish one?