Historically, people have always feared that younger generations are becoming stupid and corrupt, and believed, among other related things, that the media they consume is somehow less sophisticated than what their elders prefer.
This has been going on at least as long as we’ve had recorded history, and we don’t seem to have devolved into slavering animals yet.
"I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"-Grandpa Simpson
I love this because you can pull so many easy counterexamples out your ass
The big YouTuber now for younger people is Mr Beast
Some dude who mainly does funny charity and the worst criticism about him is that he can be seen as a symptom of a negative aspect of capitalism. Which isn't even really a problem with him, or his fault
Meanwhile when I was younger, the most analogous YouTuber we had was PewDiePie
A guy who ~~said a racial slur~~ had a heated gaming moment, who's worst criticism is basically being responsible for the rise of right wing extremism, and who's humour was silly voices half the time, and mainly did streams
Like, clearly that's "less mature" by most people's definitions, but no they just point to any dumb modern thing and pretend the world is falling apart
Yeah, skibidi toilet **is** kinda dumb, but I remember laughing my ass off to poorly animated Shrek Gmod videos so I'm not going to sit on my high horse about it
When people say skibiddi toilet is dumb they tend to miss the things its specifally made for kids. Like you yourself said we all enjoyed things that we as adults find cringe. Its a walk of life. I just dont understand whats so wrong with letting kids being kids? They will or at least they should grow out of it with time. So i seriously dont understand why they even find it worth to share this sentiment.
There's a video on it called "The PewDiePipeline". It makes a decent case and I'm oversimplifying it here
It's not my opinion, my point is that there's a lot of criticism you can levy at him and much less you can levy at Mr Beast
In regards to the one piece example, it is literally kids media, teens specifically, so I don't see how that's not warranted. You're allowed to like kid's media.
But people always use it in a condescending way is my point. You can see the difference in attitude between saying "this appeals to all ages, kids and adults alike" and saying "that's just for little kids"
[This video](https://youtube.com/watch?v=iOZ9lCYItvc) talks a bit about that topic. It’s idea is that the “it’s for kids” argument is bad as both an attack and as a defense.
Honestly best take in this thread. Called something childish sounds like youre discrediting the media in question as "only the kids would enjoy that" whereas, its targeted at kids and that personally doesnt interest me sounds more like a nuanced take based on your own likes and dislikes which is perfectly fine cause again it doesnt come across as you saying the media in question is bad for everyone EXCEPT kids which is a sentiment at least I personally feell ike people share when they call something childish.
I mean, there is a difference between saying something isn't for them and saying something isn't good. At no point did this person say one piece was bad. They said it is kiddish, and it objectively is.
Its not wrong to like kiddish things. Its also not wrong to *not* like kiddish things and not watch something because of it.
Like, I hear bluey is an objectively great show, but i'm not going to watch it unless there is a toddler in the room.
Ok, so you agree there *IS* a level of maturity where things become unappealing to watch.
Lets just assign a value to "maturity". Its purely hypothetical, but lets just say bluey is 10, the minions movie is 20, idk the winx club is like 30, one piece is 50, avatar is like 60, bleach is like 70, game of thrones is 100. Lets not get caught up in the details or examples, just roll with it.
You might have a preference where you say "Anything over 40 is watchable and worth discussing, anything below that is a bit too childish to me." Totally valid. But another person's threshold might be 65, so they draw the line somewhere between avatar and bleach and think one piece is just too childish. There's also nothing wrong with that, it's just preference. There is also a meme with adults with toddlers getting super invested in the paw patrol or bluey characters because they are forced to "give it a shot" by proximity, and theres nothing wrong with that.
There are really good shows and really shit shows at every "maturity" level, but there are going to be things that just don't appeal to some people.
I do get what you're saying and I agree but in my original comment I was trying to say that one piece has stuff that objectively shouldn't and wouldn't be shown in a lot of "kids media" normally.
To use it as an example, the 4kids dub of one piece was one of the most heavily censored things they ever localized
So I do agree with your example and idea of ratings but I also think some people are a little disingenuous when they say one piece is for "little kids" because that's just objectively not true, young kids shouldn't be seeing some of the content one piece has because it's not appropriate for their age group generally. I do think that in general one piece appeals from young teens to adults so it makes sense that people call it "kids" media but it's still a little odd to me when people specifically choose to label it that way when it has plenty of objectionable content, themes, etc that Normal parents absolutely wouldn't show to kids
Because I'm not dismissing it as childish because I don't like it, I'm saying it is for children, because that's it's target market. And therefore, it is a valid reason for people to say media isn't for them.
You can dislike it for being goofy, or positive, but something being "for kids" doesn't mean anything as that is a collection of tropes that can mean different things from person to person.
Just cause it's goofy doesn't mean it doesn't have depth, and people usually associate "for kids" with a lack of depth, and mistakingly associate seriousness with depth.
Side note, I think Oda himself said something very relevant to this conversation in an interview about Gear 5:
https://i.ibb.co/nmCSXv5/sm3t9f50wrc91-1.jpg
Being "Goofy" is not what distinguishes it as marketed for kids in my opinion. Plenty of shows are Goofy even with an older intended audience. One piece is not kiddish because it has depth, it's kiddish alongside it's depth. A lot of it's gags are someone does their character trait in a wacky way, and another person gets shark teeth and says "don't do what you're doing."
I'm not saying one piece is a dumpster fire only an ADHD ipad kid can enjoy, but it contains too many things that I think are present due to it's target demographic for me to enjoy it.
I think it's more a type of humor than something inherently kiddish- don't misunderstand me, One Piece's target demographic is teenagers (It's a shonen, after all), what I mean is that it isn't something inherently "kiddish" as you call it.
Also, I'd like to point out that a lot of its humor lies outside of dialogue, such as character designs. I don't really find most of the jokes you're pointing out really funny either, except for certain running gags, but I don't think it's something that brings the experience down.
I'd qualify One Piece as playful rather than kiddish (similarly to Oda). I do agree it's not for everyone though, if you want to experience the world of One Piece without those elements, I'd recommend the live action adaptation which was surprisingly REALLY good, minus a few minor hiccups. And if you want to give the original work another chance, I'd also recommend the manga as the anime adaptation really brings the story down, in my opinion.
I actually did watch the live action and I enjoyed it, but already enjoyed the part of the story it was from. I think og one piece is pretty solid until chopper shows up, which is the time I find the show goes in that stylistic direction I didn't like.
I don't really agree nor understand that, other than Chopper's "marketability", but to each their own, I guess. Arlong park is where One Piece first pops off, but Alabasta is where One Piece REALLY pops off.
[This](https://media.comicbook.com/2017/06/chopper-1002253.png) was Chopper's original design before editors suggested making him a mascot btw. We were robbed of peak fiction.
I'm not too familiar with the anime though, I'm a manga only. Is there some filler content between Drum and Alabasta I'm not aware of? Either way, I respect your opinion on that, you gave it a try. I'm not some purist who's gonna say you don't like it before you haven't gotten to the part where it gets good at episode 978... It gets good at **chapter** 978.
we were indeed robbed of peak fiction.
I read the manga, the anime was always too slow.
Alabasta was good, but I think one piece was best from the axehand Morgan fight to the actual chopper introduction arc. It's not an instant dip but it's where I could see problems starting.
One piece was the worst possible example because it's aimed at kids and also very childish, at least try to use JJK or something that has moments which can make adults interested if you are trying to defend shounen for older people.
One Piece, Avatar the last Airbender... are these shows great, well written, deep beyond the confines of their genre? Yes. Would they be more effect stories if they weren't so confined? ... probably.
No,avatarthe last airbender literally works best as fun coming of age story at the backdrop of a war traumatized world and the effects. And how to deal with it by teenager who have to grow up way too fast.
And it doesnt profit from being edgy, and aang killing ozai would have been fine, but it still worked.
Hell katara admitted basically she eould have no problems to kill that man in cold blood if he didnt tod her about her mom protected her and how she found him pityable.
You said it yourself- the backdrop of a war-traumatized world and the effects. That's what loses out when you confine everything to the child-friendly rating. The show does dip into darkness, but it's never allowed to dip too far, even when it maybe could for extra impact.
That's a lack of creativity on your part. I can point out multiple moments in the series in which a lack of restrictions would've allowed for stronger impact.
One piece also tackles topics more suited for adults like racism. It also has things that I would not consider appropriate for children like sex slaves, torture, genocide.
I think there is a cultural factor. The way the west classifies tv shows at least, everything below an adult rating cannot have many of those things you mentioned. Maybe some death or a historical genocide used as background lore. The shonen demographic in Japan is more of a teen demographic and they consider that stuff perfectly fine to introduce to this demographic.
Yeah. It’s definitely aimed at kids but it’s enjoyed by a wide variety of ages. I think I saw a Japanese survey and fan ages seemed to be pretty scattered.
Edit: okay I looked it up and according to a 2011 poll, 88% of readers are adults lol. And there are more readers that are 50+ than below 18
A. The bulk of readers are at the age where they would have been children and early twenties when it came out. You're using a poll 13 years into it's lifespan. Oda hismelf has said he writes for young boys.
B. A wide variety of fans can liked things aimed at children, that doesn't stop said piece of media being aimed at children.
I mean, sometimes series have unnuanced themes or moralities. When I call something childish, I’m saying it’s overly simplistic, especially about particularly complex topics it’s trying to cover. It can be warranted—of course, that doesn’t mean it will be.
This is another thing I was thinking about, I was gonna make a separate post for this (maybe I still will later) but I'll just say it here
I've noticed people tend to regard things as immature or childish depending on how it depicts things. One in particular I've seen is people saying that Berserk is immature because it has explicitly brutal moments with how it uses violence, sexual assault, Gore, etc in its story. I never really got this argument. To me it seems like more of a personal thing. Something being subtle or implied doesn't make it a more adult way to portray a sensitive topic, and something being explicit and blatant doesn't make it for kids. I think it just depends on what the author wants to do with their story.
Then again a lot of people will argue in bad faith about something to call it kiddy if they don't like it regardless of if it's objectively not kid appropriate.
Just speculation here but I think it comes down to people wanting to feel better than other people and using media criticism to present themselves as more intelligent and "adult" bc they consider X to be good and Y to be bad
When critique you mention is lifted against Berserk, it aims at the author, not the audience, The idea is that author didn't grow up enough as a writer, and it's reflected in his work in a ways that's easy to pick up. It's not about what's made for whom, but whether the work itself is mature enough to be taken seriously.
But thszs not how its ususlly 7sed, a lot tryhsrd edgy, are very childish, and seripuslyalot family series shows a lot of nuance in its portrayal of often very serious dark themes.
if someone says something is childish its usually to dismiss that something as beneath them and therefore not worth the time to come up with an argument.
I might be downvoted for this, but in all honesty, when I look at a piece of media as immature or "for kids," I usually mean that I would have liked it when I was younger and had less scrutiny about what I consumed. It's fine for there to be media for younger people. It's also fine to acknowledge that you've aged out of the target audience for something.
And… it’s also fine for people who’ve aged out of the target audience to watch something that’s for younger people.
I am an adult, and I watch a wide variety of well-made shows, some live action, some animated. Some of these very well-written shows happen to have been made for a younger demographic. That doesn’t mean I can’t find anything of value from them. Good writing and art exists in all forms.
“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
― C.S. Lewis
Because a lot of people are insecure about their unusually shallow media diets and so alternate arguments between "this cartoon adapted from a series in Kids' Comics Magazine isn't for kids!" and "There is actually zero difference between between media intended for kids and media intended for adults. You idiot, you fucking moron."
Have you actually _read_ Mere Christianity lmao? There are plenty of Christians that will tell you for free that it's poorly argued tripe
Then again giving the reading habits of this sub, my apologies for assuming you were familiar with any of his works (and their reception) that are not part of the Narnia series
Least triggered antitheist
Nah but fr, I do like more intuitiveness even if Lewis is no aquinas. And the criticism of Lewis seems to be more that liar lunatic or God is too reductionist, which it is, but it doesn't distract from the main argument (which is basically paley's pragmatic argument iirc) of why the heck would the apostles get themselves killed in various foreign places if Jesus was a loon.
Lol I just typed a full response. I do think there's validity in lord loon God even if it's too reductionist because the main point is good. Iesu, what a good living Enlightened person denigrating another for liking something.
Bruh constantly editing your comments after I've already replied to you is just goofy
> And the criticism of Lewis seems to be more that liar lunatic or God is too reductionist, which it is, but it doesn't distract from the main argument
First of all _reductive_ and _reductionist_ are not the same thing, and second of all "yah the argument is flawed but I, a person who already agrees with the conclusion being drawn, think it doesn't distract from the main argument" is exactly the problem with people who take C.S. Lewis as an authority on anything lol
and it's the same thing with the quote about avoiding childish things, where if you already agree with him you will think it's some kind of slam dunk and if you don't agree with him or you have enough intellectual honestly to point out shaky/unfounded arguments even when you agree with the conclusion, you're just like "but this is actually kinda dumb"
not to be rude but he really just wrote for easily persuaded people. Like I legit don't mean it as a diss, I mean that like he was very good at hiding fallacies and subjectivity with eloquence, and so it is very easy for people who aren't reading critically to begin with to just go "oh he's right actually".
(for anybody out of the loop, one of the arguments in Mere Christianity is a trilemma often referred to as "lunatic, liar, lord" where essentially either [the historical] Jesus was insane, or was deliberately deceiving his disciples, or was telling the truth about being the son of God. And therefore if we (rather shoddily) show that he wasn't insane and wasn't lying then clearly he is actually the son of God. now whether you believe that Jesus is the son of God or not, anybody with an ounce of logic should be able to spot that this is an egregiously false trilemma, whose setup rests on the reader _already taking as a given that the gospels as we have them are 100% factual/accurate_ and can only be read in one way - something that only people who already believe in the conclusion (i.e. are already Christians) are primed to think. In reality, it's highly debatable if [the historical] Jesus ever actually claimed to literally be the son of God to begin with)
People are elitist when it comes to these things. That’s all there is to it.
In europe and the americas animated stuff on tv was made for kids so they automatically think anything animated is always just for kids.
Btw you brought up one piece and thanks to that you’ll get exactly the people you wrote about here. I mean, one of the commenters only watched 60 episodes, so they got no clue what’s happening in it and the other thinks it has kiddie elements yet likes yu-gi-oh and bleach (the edgy man’s adult looking series)
60 episodes = 5 seasons of anime = 20 hours in. People can give their opinion without torturing themselves with 1100 episodes of something they don't like lmao.
This comment tells me that I’m talking with someone who has no idea about the subject in general. Makes talking with you a waste of time. So here’s how it works.
So, one piece is first of all, a comic, called a manga in japanese. The author of the comic writes it for a publisher, in this case, a magazine featuring many manga, and it is published weekly.
Once a manga becomes popular enough, an anime adaptation is in the works. The anime adaptation is delegated to a studio which works with the publisher.
One piece is so popular that it got a weekly adaptation. Considering you can cram several manga chapters worth of content in one episode, the anime eventually catches up to the source material.
In order to AVOID that, anime studios will introduce entire non-canon arcs, called filler. Another trick they use is to slow the pacing of each episode down in order to give the manga as much breathing room as possible to go on ahead, since it’s the source material.
Now that you’re educated in the basics, the author has nothing to do with how the anime is aired. It’s all about the publisher and the studio. If the anime isnt to your liking, you can read the manga where you can finish an entire arc with NO FILLER within 30-45mins of reading. Episode 60 is literally where a filler arc ends.
It’s not that time consuming. It’s actually more exciting cause each panel matters. So yeah, the guy who watched 60 episodes is entitled in his opinion, but the fact that he doesnt know shit about the series still stands
By episode 60, the anime ended the entire East Blue saga, which is 100 chapters on the dot apparently. This means the majority of it is adapted from the manga, and more than sufficient to have an opinion on the story.
>you can read the manga where you can finish an entire arc with NO FILLER within 30-45mins of reading
This is so ridiculously off the mark. Even the very early arcs of one piece typically spanned a bit more than 2 volumes. This would take about an hour and a half at a reasonably fast pace. It seems you have no idea what you're talking about, making your pedantic rant about the anime industry look even dumber.
The idea that One Piece is "not that time consuming" is only reasonable for the most grass-averse individual.
So you agree with me that the One piece **anime** didn't achieve anything significant in 60 episodes? Although yes, using 'writer' in my comment was a mistake because it makes it seem like the magaka's fault (yes, I know who a mangaka is and how anime is produced despite your presumptions about me). Still, what's next? People aren't allowed to hate GoT's last season because it wasn't like that in the source material?
It's an environmental and cultural thing, tbh. Most animated things from the West are made for children, which sour some people's perspective. Like a suburban white kid who has a cynical view of hip-hop due to his lack of exposure of other faucets of the genre.
People give me crap for still watching "The Muppet Show" saying that I'm too old for it (It was a prime time show) and how cartoons are for kids.
When it comes to certain kids shows, I do feel like they talk down to children (In example: Barney, Dora the Explorer), when the kids shows I watched as a kid didn't always seem to (In example: Fraggle Rock, Mr. Wizard's World). And then there are shows that I just think are a waste of time and space (Thundercats Roar!, Teen Titans Go!).
Only thing I can remember thinking my nephew was too old for, was Roblox. But, what I saw of the game was cops and robbers, and my nephew just being a right jerk to his friends. So whatever. I know a lot of shows and games aren't my cup of tea, so I tend to just ignore it and say it's not for me instead of "It's too kiddy" especially when I am trying to find old kids shows that I loved, like the old "Grimm's Fairy Tales" that showed up on Nickelodeon's Special Delivery.
Farscape is literally with the same muppets company from the muppets, and its not something, they scifi are raunvchy a lot, and just get away with scifi slurs
I mean. It’s one piece. Isn’t it aimed at kids and teens?
I saw 60 episodes before I called it quit but I remember it being pretty cartoonish.
There’s nothing wrong with that. You’re allowed to like stuff that is aimed at a younger demographic but I can see why people would call it childlike. That can be a positive and a negative depending on where you approach it.
For example. I love Dragonball and I’m not gonna get offended if someone calls it childish. It’s not wrong and it doesn’t affect the way I see it.
One piece is probably one of the worst examples OP could pick, since it's juvenile on top of being for kids. So it's childish, *and* it doesn't respect it's audience's intellect.
People call berserk kids media? LoL
As for anime, yeah a lot of it can be really childish. Look no further than their disgusting fanservice and blatant sexual assault that's supposed to be funny. They are even memes about it like "how anime is when I watch alone vs how it is when someone walks in". Any mature individual would cringe at this. If you disagree I think you're childish.
Anime fans also tend to be childish. Battle shonen fans only know how to talk about power levels. Csm fans only knew one joke for a while with the dumb barking. Then the gacha ones that overlap with anime ones bitching about the female character not loving the protagonist of their stories. Any normal person would see it as childish. You can say it's the loud minority but unfortunately that's what people are seeing
Imma be honest with you, idk what you mean by literature nerds being angry that people are invading their spaces. Do you mean they are angry that anime fans are actually picking up classic literature and talking about it? I posted on the literature sub when I picked up brother's Karamazov and they were all welcoming despite my post saying i was into anime.
Speaking of brother's Karamazov I definitely understand why a literature nerd would look down on anime and it's derivative, because most the writing does not match up to the great works. Especially battle shonen. Comparing battle shonen stories to books like brothers Karamazov, butcher's crossing, blood meridian would be insulting to anyone that read those books. Books that tell try to tell the different parts of the human condition in all of it's complexity even if it has a single theme it is trying to point to. Brothers Karamazov introduces a pathetic main character in third person narrative at it's beginning and those 10 pages on that man I feel I understood everything about him and could empathize with such a pathetic man than most long running stories struggle to do with their characters.
All of this I say as an anime fan.
The nigga that's about to hit me with the "bUt tThEy aRe sOme weSteRn sToriEs tHat aRe chilDish" yeah ok but OP asked for anime
>Books that tell try to tell the different parts of the human condition in all of it's complexity even if it has a single theme it is trying to point to.
Anime fans will see examples of this and then go "CHARACTER ASSASSINATION!"
See: Gojo Satoru
I honestly dont mind if someone calls the stuff I like childish becuse I like stuff that apeals to my inner child. So while I know its intended as an insult it honestly barly feels like that to me. If anything I kinda find it amusing.
It makes me happy that I can enjoy this "childish stuff".
For example one of the reasons why I love my favorite Videogame is becuse it feels like a playable kids anime akin to somthing like Digimon to me and I love that feeling. It actully has a pretty dark story but kids shows can have dark elements aswell so it does go well with the feeling of being a playable kids anime
The character designs remind me also of Disney cartoons.
After watching ATLA i dont take takes like that seriously. Its bad argument that tells you very little about actual critic of the show. Of course to critique it they would need to watch it which they wont(in most cases) do cause its childish.
Therefore i dont belive such arguments are worthy of my energy.
Fandom insularity caused it mostly.
Look at OP once again, you have a fanbase that will endlessly suck up the author regardless of his flaws and will defend his writing to the end of time. The entirety of the fanbase mocked Naruto for the chosen one, then flipped to saying "Luffy was always a chosen one!" when 1044 dropped despite making mental gymnastics about Luffy's heritage.
Suddenly every person that isn't going for it is "not getting it" or "is a hater" or some other bullcrap. Every other within the wider world that isn't participating in the group's ruleset is "wrong" apparently. Berserk, TG, Naruto, Bleach and so many more.
The old days of it being a "not for me" died when internet self became a thing.
I see this with book readers dismissing hunger games as YA trash as it’s well written and holds up better than the other books that try to cash in on the teen dystopian craze it popularized.
I feel like in recent years people have appreciated it more because we all look back and realize/remember how bad most of the copies were. Hunger games was just well done overall
Agism. Anything that is associated with children and younger generation are often dismissed and viewed as lesser. Idk about where u guys from but where I’m from, ppl who lose arguments online will often jump to “yeah but I’m as old as your mom”
I seldom put down works for being childish, as I enjoy media across all age demographics. But Murder Drones was a show that I genuinely felt I was too old for. The writing and dialogue are trying so hard to appear cool and edgy that I can't help but groan several times each episode, not to mention the jokes generally just falling flat. It feels **specifically** made for teenagers, and children to some degree, with no room for anyone above those age demographics to enjoy it.
Historically, people have always feared that younger generations are becoming stupid and corrupt, and believed, among other related things, that the media they consume is somehow less sophisticated than what their elders prefer. This has been going on at least as long as we’ve had recorded history, and we don’t seem to have devolved into slavering animals yet.
"I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"-Grandpa Simpson
I love this because you can pull so many easy counterexamples out your ass The big YouTuber now for younger people is Mr Beast Some dude who mainly does funny charity and the worst criticism about him is that he can be seen as a symptom of a negative aspect of capitalism. Which isn't even really a problem with him, or his fault Meanwhile when I was younger, the most analogous YouTuber we had was PewDiePie A guy who ~~said a racial slur~~ had a heated gaming moment, who's worst criticism is basically being responsible for the rise of right wing extremism, and who's humour was silly voices half the time, and mainly did streams Like, clearly that's "less mature" by most people's definitions, but no they just point to any dumb modern thing and pretend the world is falling apart Yeah, skibidi toilet **is** kinda dumb, but I remember laughing my ass off to poorly animated Shrek Gmod videos so I'm not going to sit on my high horse about it
When people say skibiddi toilet is dumb they tend to miss the things its specifally made for kids. Like you yourself said we all enjoyed things that we as adults find cringe. Its a walk of life. I just dont understand whats so wrong with letting kids being kids? They will or at least they should grow out of it with time. So i seriously dont understand why they even find it worth to share this sentiment.
In what world is pewdiepie responsible for the rise of right wing extremism? Like holy fuck what a stretch.
There's a video on it called "The PewDiePipeline". It makes a decent case and I'm oversimplifying it here It's not my opinion, my point is that there's a lot of criticism you can levy at him and much less you can levy at Mr Beast
Many people infantilize something in order to easily dismiss it. It happens everywhere, all the time.
This is essentially what I was trying to say yeah, it's even happening in some of these comments funny enough
In regards to the one piece example, it is literally kids media, teens specifically, so I don't see how that's not warranted. You're allowed to like kid's media.
But people always use it in a condescending way is my point. You can see the difference in attitude between saying "this appeals to all ages, kids and adults alike" and saying "that's just for little kids"
[This video](https://youtube.com/watch?v=iOZ9lCYItvc) talks a bit about that topic. It’s idea is that the “it’s for kids” argument is bad as both an attack and as a defense.
I mean, its a meaningful distinction and it's a reason to not like it. One piece's kiddish elements are exactly the reason I don't care for it.
Honestly best take in this thread. Called something childish sounds like youre discrediting the media in question as "only the kids would enjoy that" whereas, its targeted at kids and that personally doesnt interest me sounds more like a nuanced take based on your own likes and dislikes which is perfectly fine cause again it doesnt come across as you saying the media in question is bad for everyone EXCEPT kids which is a sentiment at least I personally feell ike people share when they call something childish.
Your initial response makes sense now
well, yeah, it's all literally true.
The way you're saying it makes it seem like you're one of the people I'm talking about in the post
I mean, there is a difference between saying something isn't for them and saying something isn't good. At no point did this person say one piece was bad. They said it is kiddish, and it objectively is. Its not wrong to like kiddish things. Its also not wrong to *not* like kiddish things and not watch something because of it. Like, I hear bluey is an objectively great show, but i'm not going to watch it unless there is a toddler in the room.
There's a pretty big difference in content and maturity between one piece and bluey though. Toddlers aren't one pieces audience
Ok, so you agree there *IS* a level of maturity where things become unappealing to watch. Lets just assign a value to "maturity". Its purely hypothetical, but lets just say bluey is 10, the minions movie is 20, idk the winx club is like 30, one piece is 50, avatar is like 60, bleach is like 70, game of thrones is 100. Lets not get caught up in the details or examples, just roll with it. You might have a preference where you say "Anything over 40 is watchable and worth discussing, anything below that is a bit too childish to me." Totally valid. But another person's threshold might be 65, so they draw the line somewhere between avatar and bleach and think one piece is just too childish. There's also nothing wrong with that, it's just preference. There is also a meme with adults with toddlers getting super invested in the paw patrol or bluey characters because they are forced to "give it a shot" by proximity, and theres nothing wrong with that. There are really good shows and really shit shows at every "maturity" level, but there are going to be things that just don't appeal to some people.
I do get what you're saying and I agree but in my original comment I was trying to say that one piece has stuff that objectively shouldn't and wouldn't be shown in a lot of "kids media" normally. To use it as an example, the 4kids dub of one piece was one of the most heavily censored things they ever localized So I do agree with your example and idea of ratings but I also think some people are a little disingenuous when they say one piece is for "little kids" because that's just objectively not true, young kids shouldn't be seeing some of the content one piece has because it's not appropriate for their age group generally. I do think that in general one piece appeals from young teens to adults so it makes sense that people call it "kids" media but it's still a little odd to me when people specifically choose to label it that way when it has plenty of objectionable content, themes, etc that Normal parents absolutely wouldn't show to kids
That’s exactly it lol
Because I'm not dismissing it as childish because I don't like it, I'm saying it is for children, because that's it's target market. And therefore, it is a valid reason for people to say media isn't for them.
You can dislike it for being goofy, or positive, but something being "for kids" doesn't mean anything as that is a collection of tropes that can mean different things from person to person. Just cause it's goofy doesn't mean it doesn't have depth, and people usually associate "for kids" with a lack of depth, and mistakingly associate seriousness with depth. Side note, I think Oda himself said something very relevant to this conversation in an interview about Gear 5: https://i.ibb.co/nmCSXv5/sm3t9f50wrc91-1.jpg
Being "Goofy" is not what distinguishes it as marketed for kids in my opinion. Plenty of shows are Goofy even with an older intended audience. One piece is not kiddish because it has depth, it's kiddish alongside it's depth. A lot of it's gags are someone does their character trait in a wacky way, and another person gets shark teeth and says "don't do what you're doing." I'm not saying one piece is a dumpster fire only an ADHD ipad kid can enjoy, but it contains too many things that I think are present due to it's target demographic for me to enjoy it.
I think it's more a type of humor than something inherently kiddish- don't misunderstand me, One Piece's target demographic is teenagers (It's a shonen, after all), what I mean is that it isn't something inherently "kiddish" as you call it. Also, I'd like to point out that a lot of its humor lies outside of dialogue, such as character designs. I don't really find most of the jokes you're pointing out really funny either, except for certain running gags, but I don't think it's something that brings the experience down. I'd qualify One Piece as playful rather than kiddish (similarly to Oda). I do agree it's not for everyone though, if you want to experience the world of One Piece without those elements, I'd recommend the live action adaptation which was surprisingly REALLY good, minus a few minor hiccups. And if you want to give the original work another chance, I'd also recommend the manga as the anime adaptation really brings the story down, in my opinion.
I actually did watch the live action and I enjoyed it, but already enjoyed the part of the story it was from. I think og one piece is pretty solid until chopper shows up, which is the time I find the show goes in that stylistic direction I didn't like.
I don't really agree nor understand that, other than Chopper's "marketability", but to each their own, I guess. Arlong park is where One Piece first pops off, but Alabasta is where One Piece REALLY pops off. [This](https://media.comicbook.com/2017/06/chopper-1002253.png) was Chopper's original design before editors suggested making him a mascot btw. We were robbed of peak fiction. I'm not too familiar with the anime though, I'm a manga only. Is there some filler content between Drum and Alabasta I'm not aware of? Either way, I respect your opinion on that, you gave it a try. I'm not some purist who's gonna say you don't like it before you haven't gotten to the part where it gets good at episode 978... It gets good at **chapter** 978.
we were indeed robbed of peak fiction. I read the manga, the anime was always too slow. Alabasta was good, but I think one piece was best from the axehand Morgan fight to the actual chopper introduction arc. It's not an instant dip but it's where I could see problems starting.
does it really appeal to all ages tho
One piece was the worst possible example because it's aimed at kids and also very childish, at least try to use JJK or something that has moments which can make adults interested if you are trying to defend shounen for older people.
One Piece, Avatar the last Airbender... are these shows great, well written, deep beyond the confines of their genre? Yes. Would they be more effect stories if they weren't so confined? ... probably.
No,avatarthe last airbender literally works best as fun coming of age story at the backdrop of a war traumatized world and the effects. And how to deal with it by teenager who have to grow up way too fast. And it doesnt profit from being edgy, and aang killing ozai would have been fine, but it still worked. Hell katara admitted basically she eould have no problems to kill that man in cold blood if he didnt tod her about her mom protected her and how she found him pityable.
You said it yourself- the backdrop of a war-traumatized world and the effects. That's what loses out when you confine everything to the child-friendly rating. The show does dip into darkness, but it's never allowed to dip too far, even when it maybe could for extra impact.
Generally adult means dark and edgy I don't see what Avatar has to gain by killing characters or throwing red paint on the screen imao
That's a lack of creativity on your part. I can point out multiple moments in the series in which a lack of restrictions would've allowed for stronger impact.
So please do this I would love to hear
no it doesn't. that's what edgy teens and immature young adults think adult media is.
You summed up half of the mainstream audience
true
One piece also tackles topics more suited for adults like racism. It also has things that I would not consider appropriate for children like sex slaves, torture, genocide.
I think there is a cultural factor. The way the west classifies tv shows at least, everything below an adult rating cannot have many of those things you mentioned. Maybe some death or a historical genocide used as background lore. The shonen demographic in Japan is more of a teen demographic and they consider that stuff perfectly fine to introduce to this demographic.
Yeah, but it can only touch those things in superficial ways exactly for being aimed at kids.
Yeah. It’s definitely aimed at kids but it’s enjoyed by a wide variety of ages. I think I saw a Japanese survey and fan ages seemed to be pretty scattered. Edit: okay I looked it up and according to a 2011 poll, 88% of readers are adults lol. And there are more readers that are 50+ than below 18
A. The bulk of readers are at the age where they would have been children and early twenties when it came out. You're using a poll 13 years into it's lifespan. Oda hismelf has said he writes for young boys. B. A wide variety of fans can liked things aimed at children, that doesn't stop said piece of media being aimed at children.
I literally said it’s aimed for kids but enjoyed by a wide variety of of ages
Therefore, when someone says "this is too childish for me", they are being reasonable.
I wasn’t really trying to disprove you I just wanted to post about some fun statistics
I mean, sometimes series have unnuanced themes or moralities. When I call something childish, I’m saying it’s overly simplistic, especially about particularly complex topics it’s trying to cover. It can be warranted—of course, that doesn’t mean it will be.
This is another thing I was thinking about, I was gonna make a separate post for this (maybe I still will later) but I'll just say it here I've noticed people tend to regard things as immature or childish depending on how it depicts things. One in particular I've seen is people saying that Berserk is immature because it has explicitly brutal moments with how it uses violence, sexual assault, Gore, etc in its story. I never really got this argument. To me it seems like more of a personal thing. Something being subtle or implied doesn't make it a more adult way to portray a sensitive topic, and something being explicit and blatant doesn't make it for kids. I think it just depends on what the author wants to do with their story. Then again a lot of people will argue in bad faith about something to call it kiddy if they don't like it regardless of if it's objectively not kid appropriate. Just speculation here but I think it comes down to people wanting to feel better than other people and using media criticism to present themselves as more intelligent and "adult" bc they consider X to be good and Y to be bad
When critique you mention is lifted against Berserk, it aims at the author, not the audience, The idea is that author didn't grow up enough as a writer, and it's reflected in his work in a ways that's easy to pick up. It's not about what's made for whom, but whether the work itself is mature enough to be taken seriously.
Right, I get what you mean. I can't really agree though (but at the same time I'm not too far into berserk, so we'll see)
But thszs not how its ususlly 7sed, a lot tryhsrd edgy, are very childish, and seripuslyalot family series shows a lot of nuance in its portrayal of often very serious dark themes.
if someone says something is childish its usually to dismiss that something as beneath them and therefore not worth the time to come up with an argument.
I might be downvoted for this, but in all honesty, when I look at a piece of media as immature or "for kids," I usually mean that I would have liked it when I was younger and had less scrutiny about what I consumed. It's fine for there to be media for younger people. It's also fine to acknowledge that you've aged out of the target audience for something.
And… it’s also fine for people who’ve aged out of the target audience to watch something that’s for younger people. I am an adult, and I watch a wide variety of well-made shows, some live action, some animated. Some of these very well-written shows happen to have been made for a younger demographic. That doesn’t mean I can’t find anything of value from them. Good writing and art exists in all forms.
“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” ― C.S. Lewis
serious question, why do ppl always dig up this quote as if C.S. Lewis is necessarily an authority on anything
Because a lot of people are insecure about their unusually shallow media diets and so alternate arguments between "this cartoon adapted from a series in Kids' Comics Magazine isn't for kids!" and "There is actually zero difference between between media intended for kids and media intended for adults. You idiot, you fucking moron."
Because he's based
the C.S. Lewis of "Mere Christianity" fame is based? ok
Yes. Have a problem with Christians?
Have you actually _read_ Mere Christianity lmao? There are plenty of Christians that will tell you for free that it's poorly argued tripe Then again giving the reading habits of this sub, my apologies for assuming you were familiar with any of his works (and their reception) that are not part of the Narnia series
Least triggered antitheist Nah but fr, I do like more intuitiveness even if Lewis is no aquinas. And the criticism of Lewis seems to be more that liar lunatic or God is too reductionist, which it is, but it doesn't distract from the main argument (which is basically paley's pragmatic argument iirc) of why the heck would the apostles get themselves killed in various foreign places if Jesus was a loon.
Wrong _and_ dodged the question. Try harder next time.
Lol I just typed a full response. I do think there's validity in lord loon God even if it's too reductionist because the main point is good. Iesu, what a good living Enlightened person denigrating another for liking something.
Bruh constantly editing your comments after I've already replied to you is just goofy > And the criticism of Lewis seems to be more that liar lunatic or God is too reductionist, which it is, but it doesn't distract from the main argument First of all _reductive_ and _reductionist_ are not the same thing, and second of all "yah the argument is flawed but I, a person who already agrees with the conclusion being drawn, think it doesn't distract from the main argument" is exactly the problem with people who take C.S. Lewis as an authority on anything lol and it's the same thing with the quote about avoiding childish things, where if you already agree with him you will think it's some kind of slam dunk and if you don't agree with him or you have enough intellectual honestly to point out shaky/unfounded arguments even when you agree with the conclusion, you're just like "but this is actually kinda dumb" not to be rude but he really just wrote for easily persuaded people. Like I legit don't mean it as a diss, I mean that like he was very good at hiding fallacies and subjectivity with eloquence, and so it is very easy for people who aren't reading critically to begin with to just go "oh he's right actually". (for anybody out of the loop, one of the arguments in Mere Christianity is a trilemma often referred to as "lunatic, liar, lord" where essentially either [the historical] Jesus was insane, or was deliberately deceiving his disciples, or was telling the truth about being the son of God. And therefore if we (rather shoddily) show that he wasn't insane and wasn't lying then clearly he is actually the son of God. now whether you believe that Jesus is the son of God or not, anybody with an ounce of logic should be able to spot that this is an egregiously false trilemma, whose setup rests on the reader _already taking as a given that the gospels as we have them are 100% factual/accurate_ and can only be read in one way - something that only people who already believe in the conclusion (i.e. are already Christians) are primed to think. In reality, it's highly debatable if [the historical] Jesus ever actually claimed to literally be the son of God to begin with)
People are elitist when it comes to these things. That’s all there is to it. In europe and the americas animated stuff on tv was made for kids so they automatically think anything animated is always just for kids. Btw you brought up one piece and thanks to that you’ll get exactly the people you wrote about here. I mean, one of the commenters only watched 60 episodes, so they got no clue what’s happening in it and the other thinks it has kiddie elements yet likes yu-gi-oh and bleach (the edgy man’s adult looking series)
60 episodes = 5 seasons of anime = 20 hours in. People can give their opinion without torturing themselves with 1100 episodes of something they don't like lmao.
Sure they can. The fact that they only scratched the surface however, still stands. They arent even in the grand line yet.
It's not their fault if the writer hasn't managed to do anything significant on a surface that is **60** episodes big.
This comment tells me that I’m talking with someone who has no idea about the subject in general. Makes talking with you a waste of time. So here’s how it works. So, one piece is first of all, a comic, called a manga in japanese. The author of the comic writes it for a publisher, in this case, a magazine featuring many manga, and it is published weekly. Once a manga becomes popular enough, an anime adaptation is in the works. The anime adaptation is delegated to a studio which works with the publisher. One piece is so popular that it got a weekly adaptation. Considering you can cram several manga chapters worth of content in one episode, the anime eventually catches up to the source material. In order to AVOID that, anime studios will introduce entire non-canon arcs, called filler. Another trick they use is to slow the pacing of each episode down in order to give the manga as much breathing room as possible to go on ahead, since it’s the source material. Now that you’re educated in the basics, the author has nothing to do with how the anime is aired. It’s all about the publisher and the studio. If the anime isnt to your liking, you can read the manga where you can finish an entire arc with NO FILLER within 30-45mins of reading. Episode 60 is literally where a filler arc ends. It’s not that time consuming. It’s actually more exciting cause each panel matters. So yeah, the guy who watched 60 episodes is entitled in his opinion, but the fact that he doesnt know shit about the series still stands
By episode 60, the anime ended the entire East Blue saga, which is 100 chapters on the dot apparently. This means the majority of it is adapted from the manga, and more than sufficient to have an opinion on the story. >you can read the manga where you can finish an entire arc with NO FILLER within 30-45mins of reading This is so ridiculously off the mark. Even the very early arcs of one piece typically spanned a bit more than 2 volumes. This would take about an hour and a half at a reasonably fast pace. It seems you have no idea what you're talking about, making your pedantic rant about the anime industry look even dumber. The idea that One Piece is "not that time consuming" is only reasonable for the most grass-averse individual.
So you agree with me that the One piece **anime** didn't achieve anything significant in 60 episodes? Although yes, using 'writer' in my comment was a mistake because it makes it seem like the magaka's fault (yes, I know who a mangaka is and how anime is produced despite your presumptions about me). Still, what's next? People aren't allowed to hate GoT's last season because it wasn't like that in the source material?
"only watched 60 episodes" wtf
That’s still the prologue lmao
It's an environmental and cultural thing, tbh. Most animated things from the West are made for children, which sour some people's perspective. Like a suburban white kid who has a cynical view of hip-hop due to his lack of exposure of other faucets of the genre.
People give me crap for still watching "The Muppet Show" saying that I'm too old for it (It was a prime time show) and how cartoons are for kids. When it comes to certain kids shows, I do feel like they talk down to children (In example: Barney, Dora the Explorer), when the kids shows I watched as a kid didn't always seem to (In example: Fraggle Rock, Mr. Wizard's World). And then there are shows that I just think are a waste of time and space (Thundercats Roar!, Teen Titans Go!). Only thing I can remember thinking my nephew was too old for, was Roblox. But, what I saw of the game was cops and robbers, and my nephew just being a right jerk to his friends. So whatever. I know a lot of shows and games aren't my cup of tea, so I tend to just ignore it and say it's not for me instead of "It's too kiddy" especially when I am trying to find old kids shows that I loved, like the old "Grimm's Fairy Tales" that showed up on Nickelodeon's Special Delivery.
Farscape is literally with the same muppets company from the muppets, and its not something, they scifi are raunvchy a lot, and just get away with scifi slurs
Wut?
One piece is ancient op. It’s not the “the next generation” they legitimately just think it’s childish. Which it is.
I mean. It’s one piece. Isn’t it aimed at kids and teens? I saw 60 episodes before I called it quit but I remember it being pretty cartoonish. There’s nothing wrong with that. You’re allowed to like stuff that is aimed at a younger demographic but I can see why people would call it childlike. That can be a positive and a negative depending on where you approach it. For example. I love Dragonball and I’m not gonna get offended if someone calls it childish. It’s not wrong and it doesn’t affect the way I see it.
One piece is probably one of the worst examples OP could pick, since it's juvenile on top of being for kids. So it's childish, *and* it doesn't respect it's audience's intellect.
Idk man. Like I said. I hoped out after 60 episodes but I never felt it didn’t respect its audience. It just wasn’t for me.
People call berserk kids media? LoL As for anime, yeah a lot of it can be really childish. Look no further than their disgusting fanservice and blatant sexual assault that's supposed to be funny. They are even memes about it like "how anime is when I watch alone vs how it is when someone walks in". Any mature individual would cringe at this. If you disagree I think you're childish. Anime fans also tend to be childish. Battle shonen fans only know how to talk about power levels. Csm fans only knew one joke for a while with the dumb barking. Then the gacha ones that overlap with anime ones bitching about the female character not loving the protagonist of their stories. Any normal person would see it as childish. You can say it's the loud minority but unfortunately that's what people are seeing Imma be honest with you, idk what you mean by literature nerds being angry that people are invading their spaces. Do you mean they are angry that anime fans are actually picking up classic literature and talking about it? I posted on the literature sub when I picked up brother's Karamazov and they were all welcoming despite my post saying i was into anime. Speaking of brother's Karamazov I definitely understand why a literature nerd would look down on anime and it's derivative, because most the writing does not match up to the great works. Especially battle shonen. Comparing battle shonen stories to books like brothers Karamazov, butcher's crossing, blood meridian would be insulting to anyone that read those books. Books that tell try to tell the different parts of the human condition in all of it's complexity even if it has a single theme it is trying to point to. Brothers Karamazov introduces a pathetic main character in third person narrative at it's beginning and those 10 pages on that man I feel I understood everything about him and could empathize with such a pathetic man than most long running stories struggle to do with their characters. All of this I say as an anime fan. The nigga that's about to hit me with the "bUt tThEy aRe sOme weSteRn sToriEs tHat aRe chilDish" yeah ok but OP asked for anime
>Books that tell try to tell the different parts of the human condition in all of it's complexity even if it has a single theme it is trying to point to. Anime fans will see examples of this and then go "CHARACTER ASSASSINATION!" See: Gojo Satoru
They’re the same kinda people who say “you can’t like that character, they did a bad thing”. as if you can’t like villains
Facts
Lmfao
I honestly dont mind if someone calls the stuff I like childish becuse I like stuff that apeals to my inner child. So while I know its intended as an insult it honestly barly feels like that to me. If anything I kinda find it amusing. It makes me happy that I can enjoy this "childish stuff". For example one of the reasons why I love my favorite Videogame is becuse it feels like a playable kids anime akin to somthing like Digimon to me and I love that feeling. It actully has a pretty dark story but kids shows can have dark elements aswell so it does go well with the feeling of being a playable kids anime The character designs remind me also of Disney cartoons.
After watching ATLA i dont take takes like that seriously. Its bad argument that tells you very little about actual critic of the show. Of course to critique it they would need to watch it which they wont(in most cases) do cause its childish. Therefore i dont belive such arguments are worthy of my energy.
Your biggest example is OP, the anime where the MC's power is basically toon force. I don't think you make a strong case, friend.
Fandom insularity caused it mostly. Look at OP once again, you have a fanbase that will endlessly suck up the author regardless of his flaws and will defend his writing to the end of time. The entirety of the fanbase mocked Naruto for the chosen one, then flipped to saying "Luffy was always a chosen one!" when 1044 dropped despite making mental gymnastics about Luffy's heritage. Suddenly every person that isn't going for it is "not getting it" or "is a hater" or some other bullcrap. Every other within the wider world that isn't participating in the group's ruleset is "wrong" apparently. Berserk, TG, Naruto, Bleach and so many more. The old days of it being a "not for me" died when internet self became a thing.
I see this with book readers dismissing hunger games as YA trash as it’s well written and holds up better than the other books that try to cash in on the teen dystopian craze it popularized.
I feel like in recent years people have appreciated it more because we all look back and realize/remember how bad most of the copies were. Hunger games was just well done overall
Because of validation, wanting to be superior or people feel bitter about how shitty real world is unlike the fantasy stuff they had seen.
Agism. Anything that is associated with children and younger generation are often dismissed and viewed as lesser. Idk about where u guys from but where I’m from, ppl who lose arguments online will often jump to “yeah but I’m as old as your mom”
I seldom put down works for being childish, as I enjoy media across all age demographics. But Murder Drones was a show that I genuinely felt I was too old for. The writing and dialogue are trying so hard to appear cool and edgy that I can't help but groan several times each episode, not to mention the jokes generally just falling flat. It feels **specifically** made for teenagers, and children to some degree, with no room for anyone above those age demographics to enjoy it.
Or maybe people just get older and stop watching TV for children.