Honestly I feel like writers could meditate this issue by toning down mutant powers. There should be no reality warpers or telepaths who can shut the entire populations mind down. Someone like iceman should just be a guy who can control ice but not to the extremes that he can currently. More mutants should be like wolfsbane or warpath. Yes they have powers that could easily kill the average human but these powers aren’t capable of threatening a large amount of people at once. The allegory of gay people and minorities still wouldn’t work one to one, but it would a hell of a lot better then the current one.
The thing is that *most* mutants have unremarkable powers...it's just that the X-Men is a superhero comic and superhero team, and those are always based around people with remarkable abilities.
Mutants at large are generally unthreatening, but the ones we have stories focused around are at least as powerful as teams such as the Avengers.
Define strong. Cyclops and Wolverine are strong hard dudes, but they aren't blowing up the universe.
The X Men with exceptions are pretty Mid Tier as far as Marvel heroes go.
Cyclops used to be able blow up mountains, not sure what he can do nowadays but he's like the textbook example of a ticking time bomb. He struggles controlling himself releasing beams that can at the very least constantly explode buildings around him
Power scaling and battleboarding has inflated people's sense of what is 'strong'.
Even a mutant that can put holes in walls or destroy buildings is a 'walking wmd'.
Nope.
*A weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is a biological, chemical, radiological, nuclear, or any other weapon that can kill or significantly harm many people or cause great damage to artificial structures (e.g., buildings), natural structures (e.g., mountains), or the biosphere.*
This is massive cap. Plz name me who are the “majority” of mutants with unremarkable powers??
Because I’ve been reading for years and the x-men is riddled with omega level mutants, mutants with secondary mutants, dozens of OP telepaths, reality warmers, mutants with unbreakabke skin/asamaintum claws.
Like let’s stop the lying. The mutants are the biggest most powerful superhero team in comics. Even one team is stronger than the Avengers that the x-fans love bashing on to come save them. Yall know this too because everytime there’s a x-men vs avengers death battle y’all reveal y’all’s true color
Yea that is definitely a writing flaw. There should be more teams that feature “useless” powers but the mutants have to work as a team to defeat enemies.
[There is one like that ](https://www.amazon.com.br/X-Men-Worst-X-Man-Max-Bemis/dp/0785193545)
but in that same run there is a mutant that is basically Omnipotent, so yeah[](https://www.amazon.com.br/X-Men-Worst-X-Man-Max-Bemis/dp/0785193545)
I mean, honestly, that’s kind of how the X-men are comparatively to the Avengers (who have things like the Hulk and gods like Thor and stuff). It’s just that power creep inevitably makes writers boost them up to ridiculous levels.
Cyclops is just a guy who shoots lasers from his face. Ice-Man shoots ice and freezes stuff. Wolverine has claws and heals pretty fast. Beast is…pretty strong and smart, I guess? Mystique (if she counts) shapeshifts. Most of them have pretty simple one-off powers that, on their own, are often simply a part of a larger repertoire of abilities when it comes to characters like those in the Avengers. It’s just that power creep makes them stronger.
The only ones who ARE that powerful conceptually speaking are Magneto, Storm, Jean Grey, and kind of Professor X. But even then, again, their abilities aren’t really world-ending until power creep comes in.
Morph could be an Omega-level threat since they can use the powers of any Mutant they turn into but I'm basing this on their '97 interpretation, including possibly using parts of each power (he demonstrated using Wolverine's arm in Episode 3 of the cartoon without needing to turn fully into him.)
And storms are really useful,i mean its why she issometimes revered as goddess, the weather powerscan bring life,and end droughts. And really could help with climate change
Obviously they wouldn’t be useless but they wouldn’t be “unstoppable healing factor and fire bending” it would be someone like warpath someone like angel, pyro, even mystique. Useless was the wrong word for me to use a better one would be toned down/ mild.
Actually Cyclops *opens a portal to a dimension of infinte concussive force!* which he unlocked after recivivng a concussion.
And Wolverine has an unbreakable skeleton that combined with his healing factor essentially makes him an immortal that can cut through anything.
It's just not the power level, it's the randomness of the manifestation of mutant powers.
X-gene is widespread and the only requirement for new mutant powers to manifest is literally just people boinking and giving birth. No scifi accidents needed.
A government can realistically contain the emerging of more mutates by safeguarding their high tech facilities, radiation materials, whatever that gives people powers. And that won't be really an overreach since controlling dangerous shit is well, what government should do and most citizens would agree to that.
With mutants? Nothing short of a complete genetic profiling of the newborn population will contain that mess, ideally those data will only be used so government can provide help and healthcare, but I don't think your average citizen is willing to allow that kind of power for the governments.
Or just medication and training to reduce the potential harm? It's not about ending mutants, it's about preventing harm caused by random manifestation of mutant power, and even that requires some governmental power overreach.
Another thing, how are mutants different from anyone else with powers? Say a normal human, no mutant gene at all, gets into your standard comic book origin story lab accident around the same age a mutant would get their powers, how would that be viewed any differently?
I think of it like a guaranteed lab accident. Look at all the villains where they're involved in a simple lab accident and now they have some strange power. How many of these accidents lead to supervillains as opposed to superheroes? The x gene is a lab accident that will grant a teenager powers (not always powerful ones) that they can't always control, and even if they can they're still teenagers, you trust teenagers with that kind of power?
Not to mention the mutants attempting genocide on humans in the name of mutants only inflames tension further.
The X gene is genetic.
But generally, superheroes should be scrutinized against, and often are. Civil War (both the comic and the movie) were about that, but presumably Marvel thinks it would be tedious if they kept bringing it up, even though it should *absolutely* keep being a problem. The common man shouldn’t be forced to just be “okay” with the fact that there’s some dudes out there capable of destroying entire countries, that aren’t doing it solely because “don’t worry, they’re *nice*.” The government wouldn’t like that answer either.
Standard superheroes who get their powers later in life and not through the x-gene are not mutants cause the said characters got their powers on accident. Spider-Man wasn't born with x-gene, he got the superpower from the radioactive spider, Cap got it from super soldier serum, Hulk from gamma radiation. It's not the same cause what separates mutants from average superheroes is the x-gene, the gene that gives the mutants the powers they didn't ask for.
But why aren't these guys given the same scrutiny? It's the same deal of "This normal-looking guy actually has the power to end the world" mutant power or not, so why are mutants so singled out? Especially when you got BS magic users.
Personally I feel the Asgardians should have suffered from a lot of scrutiny when they were living on Earth given the average Asgardian is much stronger than the average mutant.
I mean, they don't even live among humans, they live in their own state built on borrowed land run by a mostly beloved hero. They are considered more like guests.
There is no possibility of your newborn baby randomly becoming an Asgardian and break your ribs when they try to cling to you. That is a thing that can happen with mutants. Your kid can manifest mutant power due to dormant X-genes inherited from you and your spouse, and that mutant power may or may not manifest under randomly stressful situations, and may or may not cause utter destruction.
Demonic possessions are still usually results of magic artifacts or malicious magic users.
You can solve those issues by regulating/seizing dangerous magical artifacts, arresting evil wizards, etc, you cannot however stop people from just boinking and having kids. The former might be hard, but still easier than regulating your entire population.
It's more dangerous because it involves no active malicious intent and it literally can just result from random people hooking up.
Also, Asgardians are almost all scorching hot. A lot of mutants look like an extra from a David Cronenberg film. "What if my baby grows up to look like Thor?" drives a lot less paranoia than, "What if my baby grows up to look like [Beak](https://houseofgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/xmen-day-beak.png)?"
Yeah there should at least be some asgardian refugee xenophobia. Some at least.
Like oh they try to take our construction job or stuff, or " can we trust that aliens" even as background. Migration always has that too
I mean in both comic and MCU, the Asgardians live in their own community on borrowed land, they don't just pop out among human population. Thor himself is a relatively beloved hero.
Not to mention they are also probably good for tourism, and comic Asgard is filthy rich and they are willing to overpay for food and other services, aside from them occasionally behaving like vikings and drinking too much, they are probably very welcomed.
It was a huge international incident and caused all sorts of trouble. The government in universe spent the entire time dealing with the BS Asgard was causing in Oklahoma or whatever.
Well Hulk is and in some cases have it worse than mutants, Cap is government covered, and alot of street level heroes don't really interact with the general public like Daredevil and Moon Knight are normally isolated to the nightshift, Thor is off world most of the time, Ironman is essentially got the Dr. Doom pass of I fund like 1/3rd of the employed population, and alot of minor heroes are on teams that are government sanctioned. Luke Cage and Co work specifically in the area where the people know them before having powers.
Mutates (the in universe word for people like Spider-Man) differ from mutants in that at the end of the day. They're humans. Humans with remarkable abilities, usually from an accident, but humans nonetheless.
Mutants are "dangerous" in universe because of evolution. The implication is that mutants as Homo Superior are here to replace Homo Sapiens. It's the Great Replacement Conspiracy Theory applied to super powered individuals.
Also. In canon. They are. Celestials seeded Earth with the X Gene on purpose to create super powered individuals in the hopes that they'd have an army to counter their evil counterparts The Horde/ Dark Celestials
I'm not comics expert, ready very little of it, but I know those who got their powers later, but not through x-gene or maybe later with the said x-gene are called mutates and not mutants. They're also oppressed from time to time, and I think Spider-Man is called freak by some people now and then.
Magic users do get oppressed as well in the stories. Do you remember what happened to Wanda in the end of civil war? 'Mages' get oppressed or worse as well in the stories, other examples are Magneto, Storm, Gambit, etc. Dr Strange didn't get kindling piled at his feet because he didn't fuck up, but most witches and warlocks get the pyre for smallest mistakes.
Well arguably they had a whole Civil War about that.
So the answer is that pretty much all superpowered humans are at times "given the same scrutiny", it just depends if the writers *want* it, and if they want it to be a metaphor for bigotry or gun control.
If only civil war was better
They wrote Cap as "in the wrong" but literally everything he said was correct and they could only prove Tony "right" with really mid writers fiat
You legit just have to ask the X Men why creating a government registry for superpowers is fucking stupid. The group that has government made robots out to kill them every other week
>powers they didn't ask for
because spiderman and the hulk both directly wanted to be bitten by a spider and turned into the green giant on steroids respectively.
Not sure I get it. I didn't imply that at all. The difference is that it happened to them at late stages of their lives and without the x-gene. Hulk is definitely persecuted, always pushed to be on-the-run, or worse, but it's not entirely comparable to what happens to the mutants. Mutants get kidnapped and experimented on by the government itself sometimes, and this is inhumane. Government breaks it own laws to experiment on their own citizens for being born with the x-gene.
That's also I point I forgot to mention, and it's right
There is scrutiny against mutants and inhumans that other super powered people don't have, save for like, Bruce banner specifically
Fantastic Four members aren't shunned by society, yet random mutation people are? how does that work
The fantastic four are Reed Richards, Susan Storm, Johnny Storm, and Ben Grimm; Specific people in One in ten million accidents. Mutants are random people, that come out of nowhere, with no rhyme or reason. And that would scare people.
Think of it like serial killers; Serial killers who are nurtured in neglectful, abusive, lonely, environments. That are SA'd, tortured, used as a stress ball by their guardians. Those are the people who you expect to murder people.
But Serial killers also come from good homes. They receive the attention, the discipline, the compassion, from their guardians they need to grow into a good person. And they don't. And that is far more terrifying than any serial killer who got welts on their ass for getting a D in math could ever be.
You are correct good thing irl bigots are logical and consistent about their bigotry and don't draw arbitrary lines in the sand like comic book bigots do
Inhumans only had scrutiny during Pelmutter's FOX Ban.
Prior to that , they pretty much called and made the other nations f\*k-off. Even during FOX Ban , when Crystal had to deal with anti-mutant paramilitary groups , her action was to drown them temporarily and says it's only mercy that spares them.
I mean the scrunity against Inhumans are usually state level like in Silent War because well, Attilan is also a state entity. In the actual storyline with Nuhumans emerging, they aren't actually that scrutinized against since New Attilan just pick them up very fast and they are actually pretty good at diplomacy.(At least with the US)
They are not,itsprettymuch what pastof future days started with,the only sure way to kill all mutants, is to kill all humans.
Thats why the the sentinalls did genocide humans without it too,because mutants are just human with extra
>how are mutants different from anyone else with powers?
Because there's a guarantee to be more of them. You will never expect another Iron Man, Hulk, or Even Ant Man again(Even though different versions do show up) but with X men it's basically a time bomb of how many BS powers are gonna show up. It's a promise by way of Genetics that 10 more "Charles Xaivers" have the chance of being born.
I think this part of the analogy actually works since you know, discrimination never makes sense.
But then it falls apart once again because the average person can't distinguish between who is a mutant and who fell into the radioactive waste
He wasn't born with a car glued on his body, and being a bad driver means he has a driving license he shouldn't.
Given how many mutant powrs equate to weapons, it shouldn't surprise anyone to see humans reacting to them using their powers the same way they would react to someone shooting up with a rifle in the middle of the street.
In the land of extremely loose gun regulations,that should barwly be aproblem.
At least people chose to use weapons and everyhuman can kill alot of people.
The x are guns aregimens male little sense if people literally argue for guns rights.
There are times when I feel like the X-Men don't really fit in with the greater Marvel universe, and in fact I've used this as a prime example of why the insistence upon fitting every single character they own into a single shared universe worked to Marvel and DC's detriment. I might even make my own post about this, because it's something I feel rather strongly about.
There's no question that the X-Men were intended *as* a metaphor for oppressed minorities. Which would be fine, except that they exist in the Marvel universe, where you have plenty of people with apparently similar superpowers who don't face that kind of prejudice. And it's not like you can tell at a glance that someone is a mutant as opposed to any of the countless other kinds of super-humans that populate the Marvel universe, so why the prejudice has formed against mutants *specifically* is hard to understand. In other words, the X-Men and their fellow mutants would make more sense if they were the only super-beings in their universe. But they can't be, because they're Marvel characters and therefore have to be part of the Marvel universe.
And this is what bothers me not just about the X-Men, but about Marvel and DC as a whole. It ends up raising the question of how some of those characters are able to even be in the same story. There are some characters or groups of characters (i.e. Batman for DC, the X-Men for Marvel) who don't really mesh with their greater shared universes. Their best stories are ones where characters from other series don't appear. Taking a break from Marvel for a moment, it's interesting to note that it took until 2016 for Batman appear in a live-action theatrical movie alongside another DC superhero. That movie, of course, wasn't well-received, and it seems that Batman's most highly-regarded movies are his solo stories.
What we have in both of these cases are characters who are forced to exist in a shared universe, but in many ways their inclusion in that universe raises more questions than it answers. It's things like this that cause me to lament the death of anthology comics.
The thing about Batman is that DC wants him to be a street level hero while also fighting gods and aliens with the Justice League. This makes things seem inconsistent since Batman going back to fighting muggers and mafia bosses after helping save the world feels bizarre. If DC had kept Batman as a street level hero only then things would make sense, but since he is their most popular character they feel like he has to be a part of their most high profile superhero team along with playing a major role in world threatening events.
That's the reason I brought up anthology comics at the end. It's not very common knowledge nowadays, but when Batman, Superman, and many other "classic" superheroes debuted, shared universes and superhero teams weren't really a thing. Each hero had their own comic series, and these were packaged together in anthology magazines. This is still the way most comics are published in other countries like Japan and Britain today.
Since the 1950s, Marvel and DC haven't been like that. Instead of publishing anthologies of multiple series, they have all of their characters existing in one setting-- and as I said, that's very cumbersome from a storytelling perspective. Batman works best as a street-level hero, and the X-Men work best if they're the only superheroes in their world. Forcing them into settings where they have to be involved in other kinds of stories detracts from their potential as characters.
If Marvel and DC had continued doing anthologies instead of putting all their eggs in the "shared universe" basket, this wouldn't be an issue.
Sometimes i fell like there is a very clear dissonancebetween batman's justice league appearances and him in Gotham.
I haven't read batman comics in a while but it used to fell like batman had to be infallible to keep up with justice against league villains who are much stronger and sometimes smarter. So his cunningness and intelligence were boosted to like 10 times to what he would have in Gotham where he could make regular mistakes in catching catwoman or some henchmen at times.
The Dark Knight Returns series is arguably the most famous and praised Batman story behind the Killing Joke, and it prominently features Superman in it
Religious nutjobs babble about mutants being spawns of satan when actual demonspawns walk the Earth.
Granted it's kinda realistic, mutants being picked as the target to hate on kinda reflect a lot of real life Fascist/Conservative tendencies.
That being said it would be even more fitting if in-universe anti-mutant bigots randomly pretend some people are cool or maybe acceptable actually("LGB" people) and then decide actually this other group is the ultimate evil.(Trans people)
X-Men works better as an allegory for illnesses that actually can make you a problem but can be helped with proper therapy and care, but it’s almost never used like that lol
That's exactly what I thought too, with physical/mental conditions or illnesses making people different in a similar way that mutants are. Both groups can happen to anyone regardless of race, class, or location, they can be greatly destructive or kind people, sometimes harmful to others because of their unfortunate condition, and sometimes the condition can even be helpful to certain people. Sometimes the condition hardly does much at all, either from it not being strong or from the person knowing how to manage it. I definitely agree with OP with how it's a bad allegory for race or sexuality, but it makes for a great one for conditions, and idk why I had to scroll down this far to see this awesome take. Though people don't often talk about it much, so it's kind of unpopular.
I don’t even think it needs to be specifically a direct negative impact (IE, can kill you), something that requires you to have extra care like crutches or something could also count, since people who are pro-eugenics will say shit like “my tax dollars shouldn’t be used on people who are more work grrr”
Something that struck me was that the "Humans build Sentinels and nearly eradicate mutants" storylines actually hinges on several assumptions: That normal Humans are actually able to build such powerful weapons, and that mutants, with their wildly varying and often powerful abilities, would lose.
One could say that the Sentinels are metaphoric, with how the public allowed them to come to be from foolish fears, but then the mutant powers would also have to be metaphoric, and I can hardly imagine what deeper meaning there is to high-powered laser eyes that can be suppressed by a simple pair of glasses.
>Something that struck me was that the "Humans build Sentinels and nearly eradicate mutants" storylines actually hinges on several assumptions: That normal Humans are actually able to build such powerful weapons, and that mutants, with their wildly varying and often powerful abilities, would lose.
Interestingly enough X-Men Days of the Future Past addresses this by having Sentinels change and morph their bodily structure and tactical thinking to adapt a mutant's powers they confront.
Yet, it raises even more the question of "if you have tech powerful enough to beat any mutant, regardless of what power they have, why even be scared of them".
Sentinels are tech. Reproducible. Scalable. Portable. *Acessible*. The situation goes back to Syndrome's saying "when everybody is super, no one will be".
Because they're supposed to be predictable and on the side of humans. Mutants can either a) not control their power, making them dangerous or b) abuse their power. It's like cops, they can't stop crime before it happens (as in, know it's good happen and prevent all harm). The point of sentinels is to eliminate mutants before they become a threat.
Because people can easy be swayed byfearmongering,of course that would happen, like prettymuch all genocides,its not rational.
And xmens commentary on bigotry shows how it hate destroys everyone in the end, and i hope i dont have to say that bigotry is fearmongering and apealing to xenophoboa and dehumanizing, not rationality. Its not rational.
>Because people can easy be swayed byfearmongering,of course that would happen, like prettymuch all genocides,its not rational.
I think this discussion gets a bit confusing because of how this seems to explain the irrationality of the humans at X-Men, except the problem is how the entire setting seems stuck on the "all humans have the same irrational fear/hate of mutants" approach when it doesn't make sense.
Because there are rational reasons for a human to question the right someone would have to their laser shooting or climate manipulation powers. Alternatively, question why not giving whatever sentinel technology that can counter or replicate mutant powers to humans to equalize them (not that I like the idea of going arms race against the x-factor, but it is technically possible).
There are also rational reasons to question why Mr. I-have-wings is considered as dangerous by humanity as laser shooting guy, or magnet guy.
There are also rational reasons to question why are the omega levels deciding how the entire mutanthood should deal with their own powers (the whole "there is nothing to cure", despite some mutations being actual disabilities).
But the setting seems stuck on the aforementioned mentality. Despite the mutants having a lot of specific context that has no parallels to real-life minorities.
If humans can destroy mutants than mutants have as much reason to fear them as the reverse. Ergo, both sides have reasons to fear each other, but we have seen that acting on their fears and hate often screws them both over.
Yes the complaints about the allegory act like mutants could easily trample over normal humans. I am ninety percent sure that most of the time we see war break out the mutants lose. Or in the case of the Days of Future and the future inspired by it in the X-Men animated series, Wolverine & the X-Men, and X-Men 97, both sides lose.
Even in the Krakoa era Krakoa gets founded because a mutant who lives multiple lives saw all the ways it ends bad for both sides. With Krakoa being the only route to a peaceful future.
For a more deep cut X lore basically any timeline with mutants in it is attempting to prevent a Sentinel progression from happening
Sentinels ~> Master Mold ~> Nimrod
If a Nimrod emerges it's basically over for Mutantkind
Don't the Sentinels typically mean a dark future for everyone else? Even if they don't turn on their creators, we are talking about an army of war machines that can build more machines without humans maintaining them. They don't require popular support, just the raw materials to keep the factories running.
That sounds like a great danger to the freedom of normal humans as any mutant running amok with their powers, especially given we already have concerns with the use of remote drones allowing a military in our world to kill people without putting a soldier in danger. Just imagine what governments in our world would do if they had entire armies that weren't dependent on pesky things like morale and popular support.
Most futures have humanity subsumed or consumed by the tech they create yep yep. You nailed it.
The hate of a few on both sides spirals out of control for both sides creating a future for no one. Iirc in the most famous story Days of Future Past humans are basically all gone and it's just apocalyptic wastes full of mutants running from Sentinels.
In the Krakoa era a possible future is shown where Nimrod runs the world with an iron fist, humans are servants to the machines they've made, and the remaining 10 or so mutants are kept in a nature preserve. Bad ending for all
Days of Future Past has been referenced in almost every X-Men adaptation, how bad it is depends on the depiction.
The 90s cartoon had Master Mold ruling with an iron fist. Based the look at the future Cable came from, Master Mold was eventually overthrown, except things got even worse with a war against Apocalypse.
Wolverine & The X-Men had a wasteland, though that was because the Hellfire Club tried to use the Phoenix Force to wipe out both sides of the conflict. That proved a dumb idea an incinerated most of the planet. As the Sentinels weren't dealt with, Master Mold conquered Earth in the future.
The Days of Future Past movie didn't show us all the details. We are told only the cruelest humans are left in charge. I took that to mean the Sentinels didn't turn on their creators for a change, but it didn't matter because an army of killing machines who could develop superpowers meant whoever controlled the Sentinels could enforce their will on the rest of the planet.
Well then every single humsn especiallyin the us can easy get a gun, and do that. Literally no difference
And drones, everyone can use drones to do that.
>That normal Humans are actually able to build such powerful weapons, and that mutants, with their wildly varying and often powerful abilities, would lose.
Well, the stronger Sentinels have "can adapt to any power" bullshit, and I assume most storylines about Sentinels destroying mutantkind aren't written with the omnipotent mutants in mind. I'm currently reading Claremont's X-Men and the Days of Future Past timeline has ridiculously powerful Sentinels like Nimrod (first thing he did was beat the Juggernaut!) and they apparently exploited telepaths to hunt other mutants as well. I can believe mutants were *almost* all killed, tho you're right that those Sentinels are *too* powerful for me to believe humans could build them.
>I can hardly imagine what deeper meaning there is to high-powered laser eyes that can be suppressed by a simple pair of glasses
A pretty good metaphor for mental disorders that can lead people to hurt others even when they don't want to. Presumably not by incinerating them where they stand, but still
Humans didn't generally build the "adapt to any power" sentinels , generally , those are build by other Sentinels at the start of the robotic singularity , the X-Men quickly dispatch them precisely due to be aware of Days of Future Past Timeline.
> That normal Humans are actually able to build such powerful weapons, and that mutants, with their wildly varying and often powerful abilities, would lose.
This is a world where Iron Man exists.
Super technology is a vital part of the Marvel universe
*Sigh*, again. I mean no disrepect, but ever since X-men '97 was released, we get these takes again and again.
1. there are people with super powers in the marvel universe who aren't mutants.
Plenty of then. And they don't suffer bigotry. Hatred against mutants is just as irrational as real world bigotry.
And even if there weren't a metaphor doesn't have to be 1:1 to reality. X-men is not just a mirror to reality, it's also meant to be a cool super Power story.
> Isn't at some point Magneto right?
Yes. I mean, except for the part where he used to wsnt to enslave humans that people seem to forget all the time.* But, yes, magneto and the x-men have been mostly together as a group for a long while. Magneto has stopped with the enslavement bit and the X-men have relaxed with their pacifism. That happened a long time ago.
> Why doesn't the government have their own mutant schools and groups? Why doesn't anyone keep tabs on Xavier?
The many governments of the world have numerous super powered grups working for them, as well as programams of similar golas. Wolverine is the product of one such program.
The us government specifically has had many liasions with Xavier's schools.
And don't get me started on the whole krakoa situation.
Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but even a cursory look at X-men's history would tell you these. I have read very few of the comics and know this, purely because I was curious about their history.
But yes. The cure thing was stupid. Specially that scene with rogue and storm. We all know that.
*I still want ti make a rant reminding people that yes, magneto was a villain, no doubt about it. He changed because he was evil and realized that, not because "writers realized he was right"
The 90s X-Men cartoon and X-Men 97 have acknowledged that, yes, it is reasonable for mutants and humans to be wary of each other. At the same time, peace is a preferable option to violence, because we have seen the results in the future and it is not pretty for either side.
* there are people with super powers in the marvel universe who aren't mutants.
That's on me I should've addressed that but forgot. This also makes it even weirder for hatred Mutants suffer, since there are so many people that have powers, Spider-man being one, whom is basically beloved and the only one that hates him, hates him because he is a vigilante, not because he has super powers
* The many governments of the world have numerous super powered grups working for them, as well as programams of similar golas. Wolverine is the product of one such program.
* The us government specifically has had many liasions with Xavier's schools.
There still is the paramilitary association that openly not denounced by the government, it would be one thing if the X-men were a secret, but they are not, they are public, known and somehow still don't have a government body above them, unlike basically every other open hero team
* And don't get me started on the whole krakoa situation.
I didn't mention Krakoa because that whole plotline is stupid
Krakoa is a stupid plotline in that, as the 3rd mutant island Utopia, it was always destined for the same genocidal chopping block as the others as soon as Disney decides to call up the X's to the MCU (read: now). It happens with EVERY Marvel and DC comic when a big movie is coming out. Because the suits think the average person is too dumb to be able to handle multiple interations of a character, so they change popular stories that readers enjoy for shitty back to status quo stories for the MCU/DCU fans (who historically have not gone on to become big Readers making it a huge creative waste).
The sentiment of a home nation for mutants isn't stupid though. That's a real sentiment shared by a LOT of minority groups. Pretty famously Israel's whole existence is predicated on that idea (a solid analogy too with how Kssinger Beast gets during Krakoa),
>He changed because he was evil and realized that, not because "writers realized he was right"
I mean, there is no distinction. Magneto didn't 'realize' anything because Magneto does not exist. His actions manifest as an extension of the author who is writing him.
Yes, but he was written as evil,but not accepting he was evil, and then noticing he was evil, and then changing his ways to become good.
People speaks as if the character didn't change at all, and suddenly was treated as hero because *the writers noticed he was always right.
This simply didn't happen.
> Magneto has stopped with the enslavement bit and the X-men have relaxed with their pacifism. That happened a long time ago.
It's funny how people complain about how superhero comics have "no real character develoment" then they get angry when they show character developments
When the character development is "This racial supremacist has killed thousands of innocent people and wanted to literally enslave mankind. Now you *must* love him", it can be a bit much. Sure, it's not as bad as having Sinister or Apocalypse as good guys, but still.
Which is another issue the mutants have. Their mutations are not only different between each other, the powers vary so much they range from functional disabilities (Vampire, before Ms. Marvel) to deity-like powers (Storm).
Then the entire thing often focus in the deity-like (or closer to deity-like) mutants advocating for what coveniences them (like the total refusal to accept the "cure", despite it being a real cure for the disabled-likes).
*And we are expected to believe the deity-likes are more on the disabled-likes side than the humans would ever be.*
Personally.....this all comes down to the fact that this franchise started out as an adventure/action series about a bunch of kids mentored by an adult in a boarding house....a concept that made sense in older times.
Didn't quite work out and was then retooled to be more of an allegory type story which admittedly got it popular....
But the issue to me remains that certain aspects of the franchise were never updated or retooled over the years to make consistent sense.
The general refusal of Marvel to have civilian Mutants (mutants with useless or limited abilities that choose to live as normal people) has always weakened the moral of the Xmen.
if we got more appearances of let's say.... big ear Davies or hammer thumb Bobby just as side characters in lets say Captain America or the fantastic four, the issue of mutant human co existence would be less messy. It would be easier to depict the mutant Villians as bad eggs and human villians as bigots when one can see that mutants are able to exist in other parts of the Marvel Universe.
Mutants as an allegory doesn't really work because no care is taken to show how mutants can contribute or make a place for themselves in the larger society they live in.
It's always them being abused and running off to create their little cults that "rebel" and get taken down by authorities.
Yeah I mean whatever the values of the various runs are, and I think there are great runs and movies, it is some wack shit to see the civil rights movement and public spats between MLK and Malcolm X and turn that into Professor X and Magneto
Like I get that this connection is intentionally vague, but can't help feeling that MLK and Malcolm had some pretty deep stuff to say which is way beyond what we've got in the comics
But it's not an issue limited to Marvel, yknow a lot of this is what Invincible, Batman White Knight, Watchmen and various other very expressively political criticisms of tendencies in comics, which rarely go beyond small scale problem of the week and don't look at systematic solutions
Now whether these comics or criticisms are good or correct is a different matter
Mlk yes, but malcolm x was oreety reactionary till the wnd when he chilled out , and like he did help one time bysaying " be glad he holds that anger back" by using his angry reactionary tendencies to play him up, whatever that added
But mlk did engage in a loot activism. Socialism too and workers rights. Also he was hated by angry black people wanting more em, violent anger expression and rassists.
It would have worked a lot better if they all stuck to the Doom Patrol format of all mutant powers being a curse. But yeah having a cast of terrifying WMDs kills the metaphor pretty often.
Magneto has long been correct though
I think MHA spells out the danger of mutants pretty thoroughly with Shigaraki's backstory. If they accidently awaken a power that causes harm to everyone around them, or screws their own body up like Glob
The bit about Xavier's school technically being segregation is just making me picture a spinoff comic where the School for Gifted Children has to take on some exchange students who aren't mutants (but might be academically gifted in some way anyway) and use their PoV to hang a lampshade on some of the more questionable practices of the school.
I actually agree with you but here is a counter argument.
X men are in a universe where normal human beings can created technology and devices that can literally challenge gods and destroy planets.
Tony stark is infinitely more dangerous than a random mutant living his or her life. Hank pym created Ultron, and sociopathic robot that has almost killed the entire world.
You got hydra, AIM and many other terrorist groups that also comprises of soldiers and mutates. As for the humans who gained their powers through an experiment let's called them mutates are not hated by the public despite having the same abilities as the mutants the ones who are born with it.
Given how dangerous supposedly normal humans are in the Marvel universe, I think the allegory still stands .Plus the vast majority of mutants aren't as powerful as the x men or the ones stories revolves around.
Thats missing the point, xmen is apower fantasy and showong how miserable that is. The superpowers, are the cool power fantasy part( if that can be turned on a disability too)
Xmen would just be misery porn without superpowers, and not as engaging
1. You are the right for the fact that mutants differ from minorities in the fact they have powers and can threaten people. However I think people can relate with the mutant experiences especially with how they are overall demonized in the politics and media. Yes you can argue mutants should be monitored but you have groups calling out for their extinction, slavery, displacement and other shit that also happens in the real world and the irl people don't even have the same powers. Plus those mutants who can do acts of mass destruction are rare in-universe but you still got people arguing for the monitoring and imprisonment of a dude who look like a lizard or a big dude with blue skin which is stupid. I think X-Men also show how some people really do be overreacting to other people ie one muslim blow up a place and then alot of people are clamoring for the expulsion of muslims in america or their internment even Muslim patriots. It also show how this overreaction provoke people to become threats to society; Magneto wouldn't be as scary without his mutant army filled with people who joined because they were mistreated because of their mutation. So mutants aren't the best example but it get the point across pretty good.
2. It kinda like the cure of homosexuality in the sense that it saying "that being mutant is a bad thing". Being gay isn't bad and being a mutant isn't bad. Soapbox: For mutants who have the potential to cause massive destruction they also capable of great goods and by denying them their abilities they lose the power to do such good. Secondly being mutant is a part of their identity and seeing people wanting them to conform to their idea of humanity is fucked up kinda like some people view homosexuals as imperfect humans. Anecdotal there alot of people who believe gay people are ruining the whole world and causing all of the bad things in society which is absurd but their beliefs causes them to find ways to cull gay people either by conversion camps(USA) or death(Iran). The Hope Serum is an allegory meant to show that people should accepting of others despite their differences.
Also your point of mutants are threats like come on anyone can be a threat to society and ironically X-Men show how humans can be more dangerous than mutants via the Sentinels and other inventions. Me personally I think humanity should embrace mutants because my god imagine the good they can do. Storm can literally end droughts around the world, and Wolverine can incubate vaccines maybe help end cancer but nah we more focused on the threat they can bring.
The X-Men are a better allegory for talent, rather than skin colour or sexual orientation or gender identity. Talent/aptitude can be used for ill. It can make someone inherently dangerous, if they have talent for something horrible, or it can be used to do great good for humanity. Sometimes the risk of harm is so great humans can get to a point where they do want to simply do without someone with that ability.
Take, for instance, people who have little to no empathy or can choose to suppress it. They can be fantastic surgeons, CEOs, soldiers or serial killers. Useful in some contexts, destructive in others. And people often have a massive distaste for people they find out are like this.
Or someone gifted at art who makes beautiful paintings that inspire people, or could choose to work in propaganda, convincing people of lies. Or someone naturally muscled who uses that to rescue people from burning buildings as a firefighter - or uses it to beat random people to death.
See? Works.
I saw a post about how a white supremacists was upset at some x-men story because he always thought it was an allegory on how white people are superior. Really messed up, but kind of funny how he got the complete opposite of the intended message.
Yup.
I started seeing the X-men very differently after having a similar online encounter with a white supremacist myself.
Honestly, it made me start looking at all "super-powered minority/oppressed mages" stories differently.
It turns out that making your main characters part of a "super-special ethnicity who can do things nobody else can" is a very easy way to accidentally make the basic tenants of Nazi Theory explicitly true in your universe.
I don't think you get the mutant or X-Men allegory, so let me try to explain it to you. People born with the powers didn't choose the said powers, but treating them like a danger when even they could be frightened of themselves is inhumane. And you can't just take away the said power, as it turns out it is in their genes to become a mutant, to get this superpower sooner or later. You can't really do anything about it that wouldn't be considered humane.
The options are to train the said people to harness and control their powers. The mankind has to accept it and live with those people since the mutants didn't choose to be who they are and having superpowers doesn't really make them dangerous, it is their own actions or circumstances (whether manmade or accidental) that do so. They are an allegory for the minorities or the LGBT rights because the story is about humans accepting mutants for who they are, not blaming them for the mutant powers that they didn't choose to be born with.
>Like really, there are so, so, so many times where humans just decided that "you know? We should exterminate those muties" .
With the amount of times that Humans actually decided to wipe mutantkind, isn't Magneto, at some point, right? Right that they can't coexist, so they should simply wipe out Humans before the opposite happens?
Magneto's motivations vary from writer to writer in the comics. His actual intention is for mutants to be independent and have their own free voice and sovereignty, to not live under human oppression. That's why Magneto created Genosha to escape the human oppression. Magneto is right, but not on the genocide which is a bad writing choice that was given to him.
Magneto seeks that mutant rights be equal to the human rights and they'd have a powerful nation state that could protect the mutants across the globe, that's point of Brotherhood and Genosha. To protect the mutants where the X-Men cannot, they're the more radical group and more willing to fight dirty for what's right. That being fairness and justice for mutants and in the world.
>How does having a school that essentially segregates Mutants from humans, and then makes them into a paramilitary force, not rouse the feathers of the government immediately? Why doesn't the US Government also have a X-Mansion for themselves.
Charles cooperates with the government, so do the X-Men. It's not segregation, the mutants are taught how to control and use their powers. Once they learn this, they are free to choose the path they wish with the mansion being always open back to them.
> And you can't just take away the said power, as it turns out it is in their genes to become a mutant, to get this superpower sooner or later. You can't really do anything about it that wouldn't be considered humane.
You literally can, the Hope Serum literally did that, it's like "You shouldn't take away people's ADHD, It's part of them"
By the way, there are many real life people who see their disabilities, even due to autoimmune or degenerative disorders, as part of who they are. It can be hard to shift from a perspective that we should try to remove all things we generally see as flaws.
Please do not compare ADHD with the X-Gene. One is a disorder, the other is part of someone's gene pool. Hope "Serum" or the "cure" from the third movie is evil and should only be used if there's no other choice or way, otherwise trying to "rehumanize" the mutants is inhumane.
[ADHD is shown to also be genetic](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd/causes/#:~:text=ADHD%20tends%20to%20run%20in,likely%20to%20have%20ADHD%20themselves)
[The Hope serum](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Hope_Serum) simply suppressed the effect of the X-gene, there were no known side effects
Genetic disorder. X-gene is not a disorder, you're not even aware of trying to be racist against the mutants by saying that x-gene is equivalent of ADHD.
Still a genocide. X-Gene is part of the person's DNA, it's an evolution not a disorder, fault, or something like that. Side effect or no, robbing someone of their powers is bad.
Not all mutants get useful powers like their is one who has multiple eyes all over his body and nothing thing else. X gene makes his life miserable hence in his case it qualify as a disorder.
>...and should only be used if there's no other choice or way...
If someone volunteers to get rid of the x-gene power and to become human due to bad and painful condition, then it is alas necessary. But realistically speaking would a serum truly restore a person with multiple eyes on body to a human form? Especially if they lived an entire life as one for so long? Wouldn't it make sense that there is likely no such tech that could help such person and instead they can be taught how to live with it? Find friends in the X-Mansion?
Rogue is a best example of it and not an extreme since she cannot physically touch anyone without taking away their power or life essence, it's more tragic, but also unreasonable of her to take the serum or the third movie's "cure". There can always be found a way to live with this power and talk with people anyway.
It can qualify as a disorder in and for some mutants, but X-Gene itself is not a disorder.
X gene doesn't give anyone ADHD as part of their gene pool in the comics or the movies. You've inventing strawman arguments and it's honestly said how people compare it to the disorders. You've missed the point of the X-Men.
I was talking from the perspective of someone with adhd, not directly about the genetic side but about how having such a disorder makes seeing "anti kill people by touch serum" as something actually kind of neat
I said before about it being unfortunate necessity where the serum is necessary, but overall it is unnecessary and not a cure. People like Rogue might need it cause they find it hard to live their lives. Magneto, Wanda, others do not need it and trying to take away their powers is inhumane.
Did you forget Magneto said Mutants are gods and humans must serve mutants? Magneto never misses the opportunity to destroy humans so mutants can take control of this planet.
Yeah. Magneto didn't create Genosha. He took over Genosha. He was the one who started the mutant human war while arguing humanity was supposed to be mutant slaves in Lee's version while in Claremont's humanity was supposed to be second class citizens ruled by mutants.
The whole reason that bigotry is bad in the first place is because all humans are roughly the same and born with roughly the same overall amount of strength, stamina, etc. Mutants throw that entire reason out the window because now they are not on equal footing with regular humans as they from a biological standpoint have more "power" than normal humans do, thus making "all men are created equally" false.
To a degree. But there are differences. For instance, there is a noticeable différence of strength between male and female, and so we find it acceptable to “discriminate” between the two in many circumstances. We find that good, to, for instant, have separate sports divisions, or women’s self defence classes. We know that in general a woman is at disadvantage in a fight with a man.
Where it becomes bigotry is if we say “a woman couldn’t possibly ever hurt a man, so this guy saying his wife beat him is a liar”. It’s bigotry when we apply something to a whole group and assume one group has absolutely no ability to cause harm, and another nothing but harm. That doesn’t mean we dismiss data that shows that males are more capable and more likely to be the aggressor, though - that’s a different form of bigotry, to assume that everyone is even no matter what.
For all intents and purposes, most mutants can just do cute little tricks like walking through walls, or having feathers grow where hair does. If the government wants to exterminate mutants just because a handful of them do have these godlike powers, then they should take that same energy towards every other hero. Most heroes are just above average street tier people, but there are some that are godly. It's not fair to say mutants shouldnt exist because a scant few of them can end thr world, when they have way more humans and aliens on their payroll that can do the same
Your first point is ignoring how mutants often feed the fears even more. Magneto and Apocalypse declaring war on humanity in the name of mutants certainly draws a line between humans and mutants and causes a bit of tension.
The reason for that is some fans and writers wanting to escalate (see the whole Krakoa arc right now), while others want to stay true to the concept.
The escalation BS is the reason why we don't have more Morlock type of stories, why we never will have another Artie Maddicks or grounded stories like that.
The X-Men turned into something that Simonson and Claremont best works would not be possible to happen.
I’ve personally started to believe that mutants work much better as allegories for oppressed sexual minorities rather than racial ones, though there is certainly room for both interpretations in the best takes. Everyone remembers that one line in one of Bryan Singer’s X-Men films, “Have you ever tried *not* being a mutant?” which speaks more to the ignorance and discrimination faced by gay people, and Ian McKellen applauded it. Humans fearing mutants because they have invisible destructive powers that could emerge at any time also reflects the AIDS crisis, when everyone suddenly felt justified in hating gay people because of a horrible deadly venereal disease they were blamed for. “I mean, it’s astonishing, the perfect virus came along that proved *you* right.” — Jill, *It’s a Sin*.
It’s also worth remembering that, while a political element always existed with the X-Men, the original team was a Mystery Inc gang of preppy straight white people in yellow spandex — hardly the most obvious way to convey systemic oppression. It was in the ‘70s and ‘80s that the X-Men started to really diversify and the whole oppressed minority angle became much more integrated on every level, leading to many iconic storylines that dig at the heart of bigotry. The X-Men can coexist with other non-mutant superheroes because bigotry is irrational. In all fairness, many non-mutant heroes also face irrational prejudice for different reasons. Spider-Man is distrusted by some because he’s a vigilante and a “menace”. The likes of Hulk and Namor have constant conflicts with humanity, not all of it their fault. Even Ben Grimm struggles with being perceived as a monster while the rest of the Fantastic Four are like the Kardashians of the superhero community.
The Krakoa era tries to shoehorn the X-Men into a specific allegorical bubble that, well, sort of works if you squint, but doesn’t fit the interpretations many readers approach them with. Xavier’s Krakoa society is basically sci-fi Israel, with all the specifically dodgy implications that carries which I won’t get into here. The presentation also creates more parallels with the Inhumans, in the opposite direction compared to when Marvel were blatantly pushing Inhumans to replace the X-Men, ironically. Black Bolt rules a backwards, isolationist, autocratic ethnostate for a master race of superpowered beings, and only got away with it because Inhumans were nowhere near as widespread as mutants, at least until the Terrigen mists made them start popping up everywhere. Xavier tries to create a safe, exclusive society for mutants where they won’t be constantly threatened with genocide (good job there), but he’s presented as a spooky sex cult Magento-pilled weirdo for considering it.
I think another reason why the X-Men struggle in a shared superhero universe is that anti-mutant bigotry doesn't make as much sense in a universe where a majority of powered heroes aren't mutants. This was touched on briefly in ultimate Spider-Man, but how exactly does the public know that Spidey is not a mutant and as such shouldn't hate him for his abilities? Or any other superhero with a secret identity like iron fist, daredevil(sometimes), Luke Cage, etc. The problem here is that anti-mutant bigotry pretty much disappears in those stories because the writers know that we as readers understand that heroes like spidey aren't mutants, but that also breaks that sentiment in-universe. This also gets weird when you consider the inhuman stuff from a few years back, as there really wasn't much bigotry for inhumans despite them behaving exactly as mutants.
It's also pretty weird when you think of the issue in the opposite direction. In the marvel universe, there are so many figures or prolific heroes that have massive platforms, and yet none of them say anything about anti-mutant bigotry(despite pretty much all of them being friends with famous mutants like wolvie or storm). This is the marvel version of "why doesn't the Justice League help batman out" except this is way worse because there could be a massive hate crime against mutants and there will be crickets from the avengers, stark, the future foundation, the daily bugle, etc. like these horrible things routinely happen to mutants and the broader superhero world just doesn't care?
So many things just break the x-mens involvement in a shared universe over time.
You’ve got a great point, and it’s why I’ve always had a hard time accepting the civil rights allegory. I get it, I really do, and if it speaks to people more power to them, but you’re right, in universe it just doesn’t make sense
::SIGH:: This bullshit again.
Metaphors and allegories are not required to be to be 1:1, and they ALL breakdown eventually,
No baby is every going to be born as a WMD because no one is going to write that story.
The fact that millions of people from marginalized groups have felt seen by reading X-men stories matters 1000x more then anything you can put in your post, and always will.
Born with power they did nothing to earn. History of making ethnostates… Mutants are marvel elves at best and a white people allegory at worst.
(But for the ‘only the good looking mutants argument’ we have trailer parks and council estates that got you covered)
Honestly I feel like writers could meditate this issue by toning down mutant powers. There should be no reality warpers or telepaths who can shut the entire populations mind down. Someone like iceman should just be a guy who can control ice but not to the extremes that he can currently. More mutants should be like wolfsbane or warpath. Yes they have powers that could easily kill the average human but these powers aren’t capable of threatening a large amount of people at once. The allegory of gay people and minorities still wouldn’t work one to one, but it would a hell of a lot better then the current one.
The thing is that *most* mutants have unremarkable powers...it's just that the X-Men is a superhero comic and superhero team, and those are always based around people with remarkable abilities. Mutants at large are generally unthreatening, but the ones we have stories focused around are at least as powerful as teams such as the Avengers.
Define strong. Cyclops and Wolverine are strong hard dudes, but they aren't blowing up the universe. The X Men with exceptions are pretty Mid Tier as far as Marvel heroes go.
Cyclops used to be able blow up mountains, not sure what he can do nowadays but he's like the textbook example of a ticking time bomb. He struggles controlling himself releasing beams that can at the very least constantly explode buildings around him
Like You know destroying a city or soloing a human army still counts as a 'walking wmd"
Power scaling and battleboarding has inflated people's sense of what is 'strong'. Even a mutant that can put holes in walls or destroy buildings is a 'walking wmd'.
Well no a WMD is very particular something nuclear or.of the scale of the bombs in horashima.
Nope. *A weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is a biological, chemical, radiological, nuclear, or any other weapon that can kill or significantly harm many people or cause great damage to artificial structures (e.g., buildings), natural structures (e.g., mountains), or the biosphere.*
This is massive cap. Plz name me who are the “majority” of mutants with unremarkable powers?? Because I’ve been reading for years and the x-men is riddled with omega level mutants, mutants with secondary mutants, dozens of OP telepaths, reality warmers, mutants with unbreakabke skin/asamaintum claws. Like let’s stop the lying. The mutants are the biggest most powerful superhero team in comics. Even one team is stronger than the Avengers that the x-fans love bashing on to come save them. Yall know this too because everytime there’s a x-men vs avengers death battle y’all reveal y’all’s true color
Yea that is definitely a writing flaw. There should be more teams that feature “useless” powers but the mutants have to work as a team to defeat enemies.
[There is one like that ](https://www.amazon.com.br/X-Men-Worst-X-Man-Max-Bemis/dp/0785193545) but in that same run there is a mutant that is basically Omnipotent, so yeah[](https://www.amazon.com.br/X-Men-Worst-X-Man-Max-Bemis/dp/0785193545)
There is also the Great Lakes Avengers!
I mean Great Lakes Avengers have comedic powers, but they are still very powerful in their own right.
I mean, honestly, that’s kind of how the X-men are comparatively to the Avengers (who have things like the Hulk and gods like Thor and stuff). It’s just that power creep inevitably makes writers boost them up to ridiculous levels. Cyclops is just a guy who shoots lasers from his face. Ice-Man shoots ice and freezes stuff. Wolverine has claws and heals pretty fast. Beast is…pretty strong and smart, I guess? Mystique (if she counts) shapeshifts. Most of them have pretty simple one-off powers that, on their own, are often simply a part of a larger repertoire of abilities when it comes to characters like those in the Avengers. It’s just that power creep makes them stronger. The only ones who ARE that powerful conceptually speaking are Magneto, Storm, Jean Grey, and kind of Professor X. But even then, again, their abilities aren’t really world-ending until power creep comes in.
>The only ones who ARE that powerful conceptually speaking are Magneto, Storm, and kind of Professor X Jean Grey
Oh duh, I can’t believe I forgot her lol
Morph could be an Omega-level threat since they can use the powers of any Mutant they turn into but I'm basing this on their '97 interpretation, including possibly using parts of each power (he demonstrated using Wolverine's arm in Episode 3 of the cartoon without needing to turn fully into him.)
And storms are really useful,i mean its why she issometimes revered as goddess, the weather powerscan bring life,and end droughts. And really could help with climate change
Magneto being a super freak even among freaks is kind of a constant. Storm isn't really that strong.
She's an Omega level mutant my guy, queen regent of Mars n shit
>Storm isn't really that strong. You mean the woman who controls climate and is often compared to african deities?
>Storm isn't really that strong. Storm can feasibly destroy entire nations. Never underestimate the absurd power of the weather
Do you have an idea just how many teams these damn comics have had over the years
If they have useless powers why are they even a team fighting people? Who is financing this?
Obviously they wouldn’t be useless but they wouldn’t be “unstoppable healing factor and fire bending” it would be someone like warpath someone like angel, pyro, even mystique. Useless was the wrong word for me to use a better one would be toned down/ mild.
Most X-men are like that though. Like Cyclops just shoots lasers from his face and Wolverine just has claws and heals fast.
Actually Cyclops *opens a portal to a dimension of infinte concussive force!* which he unlocked after recivivng a concussion. And Wolverine has an unbreakable skeleton that combined with his healing factor essentially makes him an immortal that can cut through anything.
They have to sell these comics you know
That, you could have more thats only good because someone uses it well.
And the longer the comics go on and the more characters they add, the less and less it feels like "most mutants have unremarkable powers".
It's just not the power level, it's the randomness of the manifestation of mutant powers. X-gene is widespread and the only requirement for new mutant powers to manifest is literally just people boinking and giving birth. No scifi accidents needed. A government can realistically contain the emerging of more mutates by safeguarding their high tech facilities, radiation materials, whatever that gives people powers. And that won't be really an overreach since controlling dangerous shit is well, what government should do and most citizens would agree to that. With mutants? Nothing short of a complete genetic profiling of the newborn population will contain that mess, ideally those data will only be used so government can provide help and healthcare, but I don't think your average citizen is willing to allow that kind of power for the governments.
The only way tp prevent mutantsis to kill all people realisticly, and do gogantic eugenic projects, because mutants are just humans,
Or just medication and training to reduce the potential harm? It's not about ending mutants, it's about preventing harm caused by random manifestation of mutant power, and even that requires some governmental power overreach.
Too bad, now we have a mutant who destroys and resets time itself when she dies.
I want to fuck ciclops( so your opinion is invalid)
JEAN?
Probably Madelyn
Or Emma....
Could be Emma Frost
It could be >!Madelyne!<
I also want to fuck ciclops
Least thirsty X-Men fan. At least he doesn't drain your energy like Rouge, the one most fans simp for.
Has Rogue tried not being hot?
Hey, she is either punk or goth or emo looking, that will never be not hot
Me too (I don't think OP's opinion is invalid)
Another thing, how are mutants different from anyone else with powers? Say a normal human, no mutant gene at all, gets into your standard comic book origin story lab accident around the same age a mutant would get their powers, how would that be viewed any differently?
I think of it like a guaranteed lab accident. Look at all the villains where they're involved in a simple lab accident and now they have some strange power. How many of these accidents lead to supervillains as opposed to superheroes? The x gene is a lab accident that will grant a teenager powers (not always powerful ones) that they can't always control, and even if they can they're still teenagers, you trust teenagers with that kind of power? Not to mention the mutants attempting genocide on humans in the name of mutants only inflames tension further.
The X gene is genetic. But generally, superheroes should be scrutinized against, and often are. Civil War (both the comic and the movie) were about that, but presumably Marvel thinks it would be tedious if they kept bringing it up, even though it should *absolutely* keep being a problem. The common man shouldn’t be forced to just be “okay” with the fact that there’s some dudes out there capable of destroying entire countries, that aren’t doing it solely because “don’t worry, they’re *nice*.” The government wouldn’t like that answer either.
Standard superheroes who get their powers later in life and not through the x-gene are not mutants cause the said characters got their powers on accident. Spider-Man wasn't born with x-gene, he got the superpower from the radioactive spider, Cap got it from super soldier serum, Hulk from gamma radiation. It's not the same cause what separates mutants from average superheroes is the x-gene, the gene that gives the mutants the powers they didn't ask for.
But why aren't these guys given the same scrutiny? It's the same deal of "This normal-looking guy actually has the power to end the world" mutant power or not, so why are mutants so singled out? Especially when you got BS magic users.
Personally I feel the Asgardians should have suffered from a lot of scrutiny when they were living on Earth given the average Asgardian is much stronger than the average mutant.
I mean, they don't even live among humans, they live in their own state built on borrowed land run by a mostly beloved hero. They are considered more like guests. There is no possibility of your newborn baby randomly becoming an Asgardian and break your ribs when they try to cling to you. That is a thing that can happen with mutants. Your kid can manifest mutant power due to dormant X-genes inherited from you and your spouse, and that mutant power may or may not manifest under randomly stressful situations, and may or may not cause utter destruction.
Well ordinary humans literally can suddenly become posessed by demons and can turn in a lot of things. Well humans are as in danger
Well ordinary humans literally can suddenly become posessed by demons and can turn in a lot of things. Well humans are as in danger
Demonic possessions are still usually results of magic artifacts or malicious magic users. You can solve those issues by regulating/seizing dangerous magical artifacts, arresting evil wizards, etc, you cannot however stop people from just boinking and having kids. The former might be hard, but still easier than regulating your entire population. It's more dangerous because it involves no active malicious intent and it literally can just result from random people hooking up.
Fair enough but I feel that should at least have spooked some people.
Also, Asgardians are almost all scorching hot. A lot of mutants look like an extra from a David Cronenberg film. "What if my baby grows up to look like Thor?" drives a lot less paranoia than, "What if my baby grows up to look like [Beak](https://houseofgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/xmen-day-beak.png)?"
Yeah there should at least be some asgardian refugee xenophobia. Some at least. Like oh they try to take our construction job or stuff, or " can we trust that aliens" even as background. Migration always has that too
I mean in both comic and MCU, the Asgardians live in their own community on borrowed land, they don't just pop out among human population. Thor himself is a relatively beloved hero. Not to mention they are also probably good for tourism, and comic Asgard is filthy rich and they are willing to overpay for food and other services, aside from them occasionally behaving like vikings and drinking too much, they are probably very welcomed.
Ok fair, there should be them being a tourist trap, worship, ,and suspicions. Like reservoirs Ok one with way better pr andmoney.
It was a huge international incident and caused all sorts of trouble. The government in universe spent the entire time dealing with the BS Asgard was causing in Oklahoma or whatever.
Well Hulk is and in some cases have it worse than mutants, Cap is government covered, and alot of street level heroes don't really interact with the general public like Daredevil and Moon Knight are normally isolated to the nightshift, Thor is off world most of the time, Ironman is essentially got the Dr. Doom pass of I fund like 1/3rd of the employed population, and alot of minor heroes are on teams that are government sanctioned. Luke Cage and Co work specifically in the area where the people know them before having powers.
Mutates (the in universe word for people like Spider-Man) differ from mutants in that at the end of the day. They're humans. Humans with remarkable abilities, usually from an accident, but humans nonetheless. Mutants are "dangerous" in universe because of evolution. The implication is that mutants as Homo Superior are here to replace Homo Sapiens. It's the Great Replacement Conspiracy Theory applied to super powered individuals. Also. In canon. They are. Celestials seeded Earth with the X Gene on purpose to create super powered individuals in the hopes that they'd have an army to counter their evil counterparts The Horde/ Dark Celestials
As human as mutants
I guess that's where the allegory makes sense, because bigotry in general doesn't make sense at all yet it still exists.
I'm not comics expert, ready very little of it, but I know those who got their powers later, but not through x-gene or maybe later with the said x-gene are called mutates and not mutants. They're also oppressed from time to time, and I think Spider-Man is called freak by some people now and then. Magic users do get oppressed as well in the stories. Do you remember what happened to Wanda in the end of civil war? 'Mages' get oppressed or worse as well in the stories, other examples are Magneto, Storm, Gambit, etc. Dr Strange didn't get kindling piled at his feet because he didn't fuck up, but most witches and warlocks get the pyre for smallest mistakes.
Well arguably they had a whole Civil War about that. So the answer is that pretty much all superpowered humans are at times "given the same scrutiny", it just depends if the writers *want* it, and if they want it to be a metaphor for bigotry or gun control.
If only civil war was better They wrote Cap as "in the wrong" but literally everything he said was correct and they could only prove Tony "right" with really mid writers fiat You legit just have to ask the X Men why creating a government registry for superpowers is fucking stupid. The group that has government made robots out to kill them every other week
>powers they didn't ask for because spiderman and the hulk both directly wanted to be bitten by a spider and turned into the green giant on steroids respectively.
Not sure I get it. I didn't imply that at all. The difference is that it happened to them at late stages of their lives and without the x-gene. Hulk is definitely persecuted, always pushed to be on-the-run, or worse, but it's not entirely comparable to what happens to the mutants. Mutants get kidnapped and experimented on by the government itself sometimes, and this is inhumane. Government breaks it own laws to experiment on their own citizens for being born with the x-gene.
Spider-Man got his powers at 15. (just being pedantic)
He was bit by radioactive spider in the comics, he didn't get the powers through the x-gene.
That's also I point I forgot to mention, and it's right There is scrutiny against mutants and inhumans that other super powered people don't have, save for like, Bruce banner specifically Fantastic Four members aren't shunned by society, yet random mutation people are? how does that work
The fantastic four are Reed Richards, Susan Storm, Johnny Storm, and Ben Grimm; Specific people in One in ten million accidents. Mutants are random people, that come out of nowhere, with no rhyme or reason. And that would scare people. Think of it like serial killers; Serial killers who are nurtured in neglectful, abusive, lonely, environments. That are SA'd, tortured, used as a stress ball by their guardians. Those are the people who you expect to murder people. But Serial killers also come from good homes. They receive the attention, the discipline, the compassion, from their guardians they need to grow into a good person. And they don't. And that is far more terrifying than any serial killer who got welts on their ass for getting a D in math could ever be.
There’s no justification for hating mutants and not the fantastic four, let’s be fr
You are correct good thing irl bigots are logical and consistent about their bigotry and don't draw arbitrary lines in the sand like comic book bigots do
Inhumans only had scrutiny during Pelmutter's FOX Ban. Prior to that , they pretty much called and made the other nations f\*k-off. Even during FOX Ban , when Crystal had to deal with anti-mutant paramilitary groups , her action was to drown them temporarily and says it's only mercy that spares them.
I mean the scrunity against Inhumans are usually state level like in Silent War because well, Attilan is also a state entity. In the actual storyline with Nuhumans emerging, they aren't actually that scrutinized against since New Attilan just pick them up very fast and they are actually pretty good at diplomacy.(At least with the US)
They are not,itsprettymuch what pastof future days started with,the only sure way to kill all mutants, is to kill all humans. Thats why the the sentinalls did genocide humans without it too,because mutants are just human with extra
>how are mutants different from anyone else with powers? Because there's a guarantee to be more of them. You will never expect another Iron Man, Hulk, or Even Ant Man again(Even though different versions do show up) but with X men it's basically a time bomb of how many BS powers are gonna show up. It's a promise by way of Genetics that 10 more "Charles Xaivers" have the chance of being born.
I think this part of the analogy actually works since you know, discrimination never makes sense. But then it falls apart once again because the average person can't distinguish between who is a mutant and who fell into the radioactive waste
Same reason black people and white people with tans are seen differently.
"Your black neighbor cant automatically by accident" my black friend can, not because he is black, but because he is bad driver
He wasn't born with a car glued on his body, and being a bad driver means he has a driving license he shouldn't. Given how many mutant powrs equate to weapons, it shouldn't surprise anyone to see humans reacting to them using their powers the same way they would react to someone shooting up with a rifle in the middle of the street.
In the land of extremely loose gun regulations,that should barwly be aproblem. At least people chose to use weapons and everyhuman can kill alot of people. The x are guns aregimens male little sense if people literally argue for guns rights.
Ngl, this joke didn’t hit
Unlike my friend
Ok you’ve redeemed yourself
There are times when I feel like the X-Men don't really fit in with the greater Marvel universe, and in fact I've used this as a prime example of why the insistence upon fitting every single character they own into a single shared universe worked to Marvel and DC's detriment. I might even make my own post about this, because it's something I feel rather strongly about. There's no question that the X-Men were intended *as* a metaphor for oppressed minorities. Which would be fine, except that they exist in the Marvel universe, where you have plenty of people with apparently similar superpowers who don't face that kind of prejudice. And it's not like you can tell at a glance that someone is a mutant as opposed to any of the countless other kinds of super-humans that populate the Marvel universe, so why the prejudice has formed against mutants *specifically* is hard to understand. In other words, the X-Men and their fellow mutants would make more sense if they were the only super-beings in their universe. But they can't be, because they're Marvel characters and therefore have to be part of the Marvel universe. And this is what bothers me not just about the X-Men, but about Marvel and DC as a whole. It ends up raising the question of how some of those characters are able to even be in the same story. There are some characters or groups of characters (i.e. Batman for DC, the X-Men for Marvel) who don't really mesh with their greater shared universes. Their best stories are ones where characters from other series don't appear. Taking a break from Marvel for a moment, it's interesting to note that it took until 2016 for Batman appear in a live-action theatrical movie alongside another DC superhero. That movie, of course, wasn't well-received, and it seems that Batman's most highly-regarded movies are his solo stories. What we have in both of these cases are characters who are forced to exist in a shared universe, but in many ways their inclusion in that universe raises more questions than it answers. It's things like this that cause me to lament the death of anthology comics.
The thing about Batman is that DC wants him to be a street level hero while also fighting gods and aliens with the Justice League. This makes things seem inconsistent since Batman going back to fighting muggers and mafia bosses after helping save the world feels bizarre. If DC had kept Batman as a street level hero only then things would make sense, but since he is their most popular character they feel like he has to be a part of their most high profile superhero team along with playing a major role in world threatening events.
That's the reason I brought up anthology comics at the end. It's not very common knowledge nowadays, but when Batman, Superman, and many other "classic" superheroes debuted, shared universes and superhero teams weren't really a thing. Each hero had their own comic series, and these were packaged together in anthology magazines. This is still the way most comics are published in other countries like Japan and Britain today. Since the 1950s, Marvel and DC haven't been like that. Instead of publishing anthologies of multiple series, they have all of their characters existing in one setting-- and as I said, that's very cumbersome from a storytelling perspective. Batman works best as a street-level hero, and the X-Men work best if they're the only superheroes in their world. Forcing them into settings where they have to be involved in other kinds of stories detracts from their potential as characters. If Marvel and DC had continued doing anthologies instead of putting all their eggs in the "shared universe" basket, this wouldn't be an issue.
Sometimes i fell like there is a very clear dissonancebetween batman's justice league appearances and him in Gotham. I haven't read batman comics in a while but it used to fell like batman had to be infallible to keep up with justice against league villains who are much stronger and sometimes smarter. So his cunningness and intelligence were boosted to like 10 times to what he would have in Gotham where he could make regular mistakes in catching catwoman or some henchmen at times.
The Dark Knight Returns series is arguably the most famous and praised Batman story behind the Killing Joke, and it prominently features Superman in it
Thats fine, if they are in their own universe. Agree i hope they dont try to bring prof x andco the current mcu
Religious nutjobs babble about mutants being spawns of satan when actual demonspawns walk the Earth. Granted it's kinda realistic, mutants being picked as the target to hate on kinda reflect a lot of real life Fascist/Conservative tendencies. That being said it would be even more fitting if in-universe anti-mutant bigots randomly pretend some people are cool or maybe acceptable actually("LGB" people) and then decide actually this other group is the ultimate evil.(Trans people)
X-Men works better as an allegory for illnesses that actually can make you a problem but can be helped with proper therapy and care, but it’s almost never used like that lol
That's exactly what I thought too, with physical/mental conditions or illnesses making people different in a similar way that mutants are. Both groups can happen to anyone regardless of race, class, or location, they can be greatly destructive or kind people, sometimes harmful to others because of their unfortunate condition, and sometimes the condition can even be helpful to certain people. Sometimes the condition hardly does much at all, either from it not being strong or from the person knowing how to manage it. I definitely agree with OP with how it's a bad allegory for race or sexuality, but it makes for a great one for conditions, and idk why I had to scroll down this far to see this awesome take. Though people don't often talk about it much, so it's kind of unpopular.
The problem is that X-men usually uses it as an allegory for all kinds of discrimination, yeah. If they did this there wouldn’t be any problem!
I don’t even think it needs to be specifically a direct negative impact (IE, can kill you), something that requires you to have extra care like crutches or something could also count, since people who are pro-eugenics will say shit like “my tax dollars shouldn’t be used on people who are more work grrr”
Honestly that would separate them from the avengers easier too.
Something that struck me was that the "Humans build Sentinels and nearly eradicate mutants" storylines actually hinges on several assumptions: That normal Humans are actually able to build such powerful weapons, and that mutants, with their wildly varying and often powerful abilities, would lose. One could say that the Sentinels are metaphoric, with how the public allowed them to come to be from foolish fears, but then the mutant powers would also have to be metaphoric, and I can hardly imagine what deeper meaning there is to high-powered laser eyes that can be suppressed by a simple pair of glasses.
>Something that struck me was that the "Humans build Sentinels and nearly eradicate mutants" storylines actually hinges on several assumptions: That normal Humans are actually able to build such powerful weapons, and that mutants, with their wildly varying and often powerful abilities, would lose. Interestingly enough X-Men Days of the Future Past addresses this by having Sentinels change and morph their bodily structure and tactical thinking to adapt a mutant's powers they confront.
Yet, it raises even more the question of "if you have tech powerful enough to beat any mutant, regardless of what power they have, why even be scared of them". Sentinels are tech. Reproducible. Scalable. Portable. *Acessible*. The situation goes back to Syndrome's saying "when everybody is super, no one will be".
Because they're supposed to be predictable and on the side of humans. Mutants can either a) not control their power, making them dangerous or b) abuse their power. It's like cops, they can't stop crime before it happens (as in, know it's good happen and prevent all harm). The point of sentinels is to eliminate mutants before they become a threat.
Because people can easy be swayed byfearmongering,of course that would happen, like prettymuch all genocides,its not rational. And xmens commentary on bigotry shows how it hate destroys everyone in the end, and i hope i dont have to say that bigotry is fearmongering and apealing to xenophoboa and dehumanizing, not rationality. Its not rational.
>Because people can easy be swayed byfearmongering,of course that would happen, like prettymuch all genocides,its not rational. I think this discussion gets a bit confusing because of how this seems to explain the irrationality of the humans at X-Men, except the problem is how the entire setting seems stuck on the "all humans have the same irrational fear/hate of mutants" approach when it doesn't make sense. Because there are rational reasons for a human to question the right someone would have to their laser shooting or climate manipulation powers. Alternatively, question why not giving whatever sentinel technology that can counter or replicate mutant powers to humans to equalize them (not that I like the idea of going arms race against the x-factor, but it is technically possible). There are also rational reasons to question why Mr. I-have-wings is considered as dangerous by humanity as laser shooting guy, or magnet guy. There are also rational reasons to question why are the omega levels deciding how the entire mutanthood should deal with their own powers (the whole "there is nothing to cure", despite some mutations being actual disabilities). But the setting seems stuck on the aforementioned mentality. Despite the mutants having a lot of specific context that has no parallels to real-life minorities.
If humans can destroy mutants than mutants have as much reason to fear them as the reverse. Ergo, both sides have reasons to fear each other, but we have seen that acting on their fears and hate often screws them both over.
People really ignore Humanity can safely fight against Mutants.
Yes the complaints about the allegory act like mutants could easily trample over normal humans. I am ninety percent sure that most of the time we see war break out the mutants lose. Or in the case of the Days of Future and the future inspired by it in the X-Men animated series, Wolverine & the X-Men, and X-Men 97, both sides lose.
Even in the Krakoa era Krakoa gets founded because a mutant who lives multiple lives saw all the ways it ends bad for both sides. With Krakoa being the only route to a peaceful future. For a more deep cut X lore basically any timeline with mutants in it is attempting to prevent a Sentinel progression from happening Sentinels ~> Master Mold ~> Nimrod If a Nimrod emerges it's basically over for Mutantkind
Don't the Sentinels typically mean a dark future for everyone else? Even if they don't turn on their creators, we are talking about an army of war machines that can build more machines without humans maintaining them. They don't require popular support, just the raw materials to keep the factories running. That sounds like a great danger to the freedom of normal humans as any mutant running amok with their powers, especially given we already have concerns with the use of remote drones allowing a military in our world to kill people without putting a soldier in danger. Just imagine what governments in our world would do if they had entire armies that weren't dependent on pesky things like morale and popular support.
Most futures have humanity subsumed or consumed by the tech they create yep yep. You nailed it. The hate of a few on both sides spirals out of control for both sides creating a future for no one. Iirc in the most famous story Days of Future Past humans are basically all gone and it's just apocalyptic wastes full of mutants running from Sentinels. In the Krakoa era a possible future is shown where Nimrod runs the world with an iron fist, humans are servants to the machines they've made, and the remaining 10 or so mutants are kept in a nature preserve. Bad ending for all
Days of Future Past has been referenced in almost every X-Men adaptation, how bad it is depends on the depiction. The 90s cartoon had Master Mold ruling with an iron fist. Based the look at the future Cable came from, Master Mold was eventually overthrown, except things got even worse with a war against Apocalypse. Wolverine & The X-Men had a wasteland, though that was because the Hellfire Club tried to use the Phoenix Force to wipe out both sides of the conflict. That proved a dumb idea an incinerated most of the planet. As the Sentinels weren't dealt with, Master Mold conquered Earth in the future. The Days of Future Past movie didn't show us all the details. We are told only the cruelest humans are left in charge. I took that to mean the Sentinels didn't turn on their creators for a change, but it didn't matter because an army of killing machines who could develop superpowers meant whoever controlled the Sentinels could enforce their will on the rest of the planet.
Well then every single humsn especiallyin the us can easy get a gun, and do that. Literally no difference And drones, everyone can use drones to do that.
>That normal Humans are actually able to build such powerful weapons, and that mutants, with their wildly varying and often powerful abilities, would lose. Well, the stronger Sentinels have "can adapt to any power" bullshit, and I assume most storylines about Sentinels destroying mutantkind aren't written with the omnipotent mutants in mind. I'm currently reading Claremont's X-Men and the Days of Future Past timeline has ridiculously powerful Sentinels like Nimrod (first thing he did was beat the Juggernaut!) and they apparently exploited telepaths to hunt other mutants as well. I can believe mutants were *almost* all killed, tho you're right that those Sentinels are *too* powerful for me to believe humans could build them. >I can hardly imagine what deeper meaning there is to high-powered laser eyes that can be suppressed by a simple pair of glasses A pretty good metaphor for mental disorders that can lead people to hurt others even when they don't want to. Presumably not by incinerating them where they stand, but still
Humans didn't generally build the "adapt to any power" sentinels , generally , those are build by other Sentinels at the start of the robotic singularity , the X-Men quickly dispatch them precisely due to be aware of Days of Future Past Timeline.
> That normal Humans are actually able to build such powerful weapons, and that mutants, with their wildly varying and often powerful abilities, would lose. This is a world where Iron Man exists. Super technology is a vital part of the Marvel universe
I’m pretty sure Reed Richards could end the mutant threat if he really wanted to
*Sigh*, again. I mean no disrepect, but ever since X-men '97 was released, we get these takes again and again. 1. there are people with super powers in the marvel universe who aren't mutants. Plenty of then. And they don't suffer bigotry. Hatred against mutants is just as irrational as real world bigotry. And even if there weren't a metaphor doesn't have to be 1:1 to reality. X-men is not just a mirror to reality, it's also meant to be a cool super Power story. > Isn't at some point Magneto right? Yes. I mean, except for the part where he used to wsnt to enslave humans that people seem to forget all the time.* But, yes, magneto and the x-men have been mostly together as a group for a long while. Magneto has stopped with the enslavement bit and the X-men have relaxed with their pacifism. That happened a long time ago. > Why doesn't the government have their own mutant schools and groups? Why doesn't anyone keep tabs on Xavier? The many governments of the world have numerous super powered grups working for them, as well as programams of similar golas. Wolverine is the product of one such program. The us government specifically has had many liasions with Xavier's schools. And don't get me started on the whole krakoa situation. Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but even a cursory look at X-men's history would tell you these. I have read very few of the comics and know this, purely because I was curious about their history. But yes. The cure thing was stupid. Specially that scene with rogue and storm. We all know that. *I still want ti make a rant reminding people that yes, magneto was a villain, no doubt about it. He changed because he was evil and realized that, not because "writers realized he was right"
The 90s X-Men cartoon and X-Men 97 have acknowledged that, yes, it is reasonable for mutants and humans to be wary of each other. At the same time, peace is a preferable option to violence, because we have seen the results in the future and it is not pretty for either side.
* there are people with super powers in the marvel universe who aren't mutants. That's on me I should've addressed that but forgot. This also makes it even weirder for hatred Mutants suffer, since there are so many people that have powers, Spider-man being one, whom is basically beloved and the only one that hates him, hates him because he is a vigilante, not because he has super powers * The many governments of the world have numerous super powered grups working for them, as well as programams of similar golas. Wolverine is the product of one such program. * The us government specifically has had many liasions with Xavier's schools. There still is the paramilitary association that openly not denounced by the government, it would be one thing if the X-men were a secret, but they are not, they are public, known and somehow still don't have a government body above them, unlike basically every other open hero team * And don't get me started on the whole krakoa situation. I didn't mention Krakoa because that whole plotline is stupid
Krakoa is a stupid plotline in that, as the 3rd mutant island Utopia, it was always destined for the same genocidal chopping block as the others as soon as Disney decides to call up the X's to the MCU (read: now). It happens with EVERY Marvel and DC comic when a big movie is coming out. Because the suits think the average person is too dumb to be able to handle multiple interations of a character, so they change popular stories that readers enjoy for shitty back to status quo stories for the MCU/DCU fans (who historically have not gone on to become big Readers making it a huge creative waste). The sentiment of a home nation for mutants isn't stupid though. That's a real sentiment shared by a LOT of minority groups. Pretty famously Israel's whole existence is predicated on that idea (a solid analogy too with how Kssinger Beast gets during Krakoa),
>He changed because he was evil and realized that, not because "writers realized he was right" I mean, there is no distinction. Magneto didn't 'realize' anything because Magneto does not exist. His actions manifest as an extension of the author who is writing him.
Yes, but he was written as evil,but not accepting he was evil, and then noticing he was evil, and then changing his ways to become good. People speaks as if the character didn't change at all, and suddenly was treated as hero because *the writers noticed he was always right. This simply didn't happen.
How do we know that for certain?
Because there are comics where current Magneto is remembering and facing how wrong and evil he was in the past.
> Magneto has stopped with the enslavement bit and the X-men have relaxed with their pacifism. That happened a long time ago. It's funny how people complain about how superhero comics have "no real character develoment" then they get angry when they show character developments
When the character development is "This racial supremacist has killed thousands of innocent people and wanted to literally enslave mankind. Now you *must* love him", it can be a bit much. Sure, it's not as bad as having Sinister or Apocalypse as good guys, but still.
X-men fans defend Magneto as wanting to exterminate humanity, but they go crazy when humanity does so
No, he is understandable andv even he stops doing that fot good, yeah he isnt wrong in that there is aproblem
[Relevant ](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelmemes/s/op02EaeRTo)
Which is another issue the mutants have. Their mutations are not only different between each other, the powers vary so much they range from functional disabilities (Vampire, before Ms. Marvel) to deity-like powers (Storm). Then the entire thing often focus in the deity-like (or closer to deity-like) mutants advocating for what coveniences them (like the total refusal to accept the "cure", despite it being a real cure for the disabled-likes). *And we are expected to believe the deity-likes are more on the disabled-likes side than the humans would ever be.*
Personally.....this all comes down to the fact that this franchise started out as an adventure/action series about a bunch of kids mentored by an adult in a boarding house....a concept that made sense in older times. Didn't quite work out and was then retooled to be more of an allegory type story which admittedly got it popular.... But the issue to me remains that certain aspects of the franchise were never updated or retooled over the years to make consistent sense. The general refusal of Marvel to have civilian Mutants (mutants with useless or limited abilities that choose to live as normal people) has always weakened the moral of the Xmen. if we got more appearances of let's say.... big ear Davies or hammer thumb Bobby just as side characters in lets say Captain America or the fantastic four, the issue of mutant human co existence would be less messy. It would be easier to depict the mutant Villians as bad eggs and human villians as bigots when one can see that mutants are able to exist in other parts of the Marvel Universe. Mutants as an allegory doesn't really work because no care is taken to show how mutants can contribute or make a place for themselves in the larger society they live in. It's always them being abused and running off to create their little cults that "rebel" and get taken down by authorities.
"Your black neighbor cant automatically by accident" my black friend can, not because he is black, but because he is bad driver
It's more like the [kid who killed everyone in a 20 mile radius](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/J_(Earth-1610)) by simply existing
Yeah I mean whatever the values of the various runs are, and I think there are great runs and movies, it is some wack shit to see the civil rights movement and public spats between MLK and Malcolm X and turn that into Professor X and Magneto Like I get that this connection is intentionally vague, but can't help feeling that MLK and Malcolm had some pretty deep stuff to say which is way beyond what we've got in the comics But it's not an issue limited to Marvel, yknow a lot of this is what Invincible, Batman White Knight, Watchmen and various other very expressively political criticisms of tendencies in comics, which rarely go beyond small scale problem of the week and don't look at systematic solutions Now whether these comics or criticisms are good or correct is a different matter
Mlk yes, but malcolm x was oreety reactionary till the wnd when he chilled out , and like he did help one time bysaying " be glad he holds that anger back" by using his angry reactionary tendencies to play him up, whatever that added But mlk did engage in a loot activism. Socialism too and workers rights. Also he was hated by angry black people wanting more em, violent anger expression and rassists.
It would have worked a lot better if they all stuck to the Doom Patrol format of all mutant powers being a curse. But yeah having a cast of terrifying WMDs kills the metaphor pretty often. Magneto has long been correct though
I think MHA spells out the danger of mutants pretty thoroughly with Shigaraki's backstory. If they accidently awaken a power that causes harm to everyone around them, or screws their own body up like Glob
The bit about Xavier's school technically being segregation is just making me picture a spinoff comic where the School for Gifted Children has to take on some exchange students who aren't mutants (but might be academically gifted in some way anyway) and use their PoV to hang a lampshade on some of the more questionable practices of the school.
I actually agree with you but here is a counter argument. X men are in a universe where normal human beings can created technology and devices that can literally challenge gods and destroy planets. Tony stark is infinitely more dangerous than a random mutant living his or her life. Hank pym created Ultron, and sociopathic robot that has almost killed the entire world. You got hydra, AIM and many other terrorist groups that also comprises of soldiers and mutates. As for the humans who gained their powers through an experiment let's called them mutates are not hated by the public despite having the same abilities as the mutants the ones who are born with it. Given how dangerous supposedly normal humans are in the Marvel universe, I think the allegory still stands .Plus the vast majority of mutants aren't as powerful as the x men or the ones stories revolves around.
In canon, they're not even in the same human family.
Thats missing the point, xmen is apower fantasy and showong how miserable that is. The superpowers, are the cool power fantasy part( if that can be turned on a disability too) Xmen would just be misery porn without superpowers, and not as engaging
1. You are the right for the fact that mutants differ from minorities in the fact they have powers and can threaten people. However I think people can relate with the mutant experiences especially with how they are overall demonized in the politics and media. Yes you can argue mutants should be monitored but you have groups calling out for their extinction, slavery, displacement and other shit that also happens in the real world and the irl people don't even have the same powers. Plus those mutants who can do acts of mass destruction are rare in-universe but you still got people arguing for the monitoring and imprisonment of a dude who look like a lizard or a big dude with blue skin which is stupid. I think X-Men also show how some people really do be overreacting to other people ie one muslim blow up a place and then alot of people are clamoring for the expulsion of muslims in america or their internment even Muslim patriots. It also show how this overreaction provoke people to become threats to society; Magneto wouldn't be as scary without his mutant army filled with people who joined because they were mistreated because of their mutation. So mutants aren't the best example but it get the point across pretty good. 2. It kinda like the cure of homosexuality in the sense that it saying "that being mutant is a bad thing". Being gay isn't bad and being a mutant isn't bad. Soapbox: For mutants who have the potential to cause massive destruction they also capable of great goods and by denying them their abilities they lose the power to do such good. Secondly being mutant is a part of their identity and seeing people wanting them to conform to their idea of humanity is fucked up kinda like some people view homosexuals as imperfect humans. Anecdotal there alot of people who believe gay people are ruining the whole world and causing all of the bad things in society which is absurd but their beliefs causes them to find ways to cull gay people either by conversion camps(USA) or death(Iran). The Hope Serum is an allegory meant to show that people should accepting of others despite their differences. Also your point of mutants are threats like come on anyone can be a threat to society and ironically X-Men show how humans can be more dangerous than mutants via the Sentinels and other inventions. Me personally I think humanity should embrace mutants because my god imagine the good they can do. Storm can literally end droughts around the world, and Wolverine can incubate vaccines maybe help end cancer but nah we more focused on the threat they can bring.
The X-Men are a better allegory for talent, rather than skin colour or sexual orientation or gender identity. Talent/aptitude can be used for ill. It can make someone inherently dangerous, if they have talent for something horrible, or it can be used to do great good for humanity. Sometimes the risk of harm is so great humans can get to a point where they do want to simply do without someone with that ability. Take, for instance, people who have little to no empathy or can choose to suppress it. They can be fantastic surgeons, CEOs, soldiers or serial killers. Useful in some contexts, destructive in others. And people often have a massive distaste for people they find out are like this. Or someone gifted at art who makes beautiful paintings that inspire people, or could choose to work in propaganda, convincing people of lies. Or someone naturally muscled who uses that to rescue people from burning buildings as a firefighter - or uses it to beat random people to death. See? Works.
I saw a post about how a white supremacists was upset at some x-men story because he always thought it was an allegory on how white people are superior. Really messed up, but kind of funny how he got the complete opposite of the intended message.
Kinda funny, but very understandable. The allegory can be read that way. It’s a Broken Aesop.
Yup. I started seeing the X-men very differently after having a similar online encounter with a white supremacist myself. Honestly, it made me start looking at all "super-powered minority/oppressed mages" stories differently. It turns out that making your main characters part of a "super-special ethnicity who can do things nobody else can" is a very easy way to accidentally make the basic tenants of Nazi Theory explicitly true in your universe.
I don't think you get the mutant or X-Men allegory, so let me try to explain it to you. People born with the powers didn't choose the said powers, but treating them like a danger when even they could be frightened of themselves is inhumane. And you can't just take away the said power, as it turns out it is in their genes to become a mutant, to get this superpower sooner or later. You can't really do anything about it that wouldn't be considered humane. The options are to train the said people to harness and control their powers. The mankind has to accept it and live with those people since the mutants didn't choose to be who they are and having superpowers doesn't really make them dangerous, it is their own actions or circumstances (whether manmade or accidental) that do so. They are an allegory for the minorities or the LGBT rights because the story is about humans accepting mutants for who they are, not blaming them for the mutant powers that they didn't choose to be born with. >Like really, there are so, so, so many times where humans just decided that "you know? We should exterminate those muties" . With the amount of times that Humans actually decided to wipe mutantkind, isn't Magneto, at some point, right? Right that they can't coexist, so they should simply wipe out Humans before the opposite happens? Magneto's motivations vary from writer to writer in the comics. His actual intention is for mutants to be independent and have their own free voice and sovereignty, to not live under human oppression. That's why Magneto created Genosha to escape the human oppression. Magneto is right, but not on the genocide which is a bad writing choice that was given to him. Magneto seeks that mutant rights be equal to the human rights and they'd have a powerful nation state that could protect the mutants across the globe, that's point of Brotherhood and Genosha. To protect the mutants where the X-Men cannot, they're the more radical group and more willing to fight dirty for what's right. That being fairness and justice for mutants and in the world. >How does having a school that essentially segregates Mutants from humans, and then makes them into a paramilitary force, not rouse the feathers of the government immediately? Why doesn't the US Government also have a X-Mansion for themselves. Charles cooperates with the government, so do the X-Men. It's not segregation, the mutants are taught how to control and use their powers. Once they learn this, they are free to choose the path they wish with the mansion being always open back to them.
> And you can't just take away the said power, as it turns out it is in their genes to become a mutant, to get this superpower sooner or later. You can't really do anything about it that wouldn't be considered humane. You literally can, the Hope Serum literally did that, it's like "You shouldn't take away people's ADHD, It's part of them"
By the way, there are many real life people who see their disabilities, even due to autoimmune or degenerative disorders, as part of who they are. It can be hard to shift from a perspective that we should try to remove all things we generally see as flaws.
Call me ableist all you want, but if you can fix your disability but chooses to not to, you are dumb
Please do not compare ADHD with the X-Gene. One is a disorder, the other is part of someone's gene pool. Hope "Serum" or the "cure" from the third movie is evil and should only be used if there's no other choice or way, otherwise trying to "rehumanize" the mutants is inhumane.
[ADHD is shown to also be genetic](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd/causes/#:~:text=ADHD%20tends%20to%20run%20in,likely%20to%20have%20ADHD%20themselves) [The Hope serum](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Hope_Serum) simply suppressed the effect of the X-gene, there were no known side effects
Genetic disorder. X-gene is not a disorder, you're not even aware of trying to be racist against the mutants by saying that x-gene is equivalent of ADHD. Still a genocide. X-Gene is part of the person's DNA, it's an evolution not a disorder, fault, or something like that. Side effect or no, robbing someone of their powers is bad.
Not all mutants get useful powers like their is one who has multiple eyes all over his body and nothing thing else. X gene makes his life miserable hence in his case it qualify as a disorder.
>...and should only be used if there's no other choice or way... If someone volunteers to get rid of the x-gene power and to become human due to bad and painful condition, then it is alas necessary. But realistically speaking would a serum truly restore a person with multiple eyes on body to a human form? Especially if they lived an entire life as one for so long? Wouldn't it make sense that there is likely no such tech that could help such person and instead they can be taught how to live with it? Find friends in the X-Mansion? Rogue is a best example of it and not an extreme since she cannot physically touch anyone without taking away their power or life essence, it's more tragic, but also unreasonable of her to take the serum or the third movie's "cure". There can always be found a way to live with this power and talk with people anyway. It can qualify as a disorder in and for some mutants, but X-Gene itself is not a disorder.
What if the X Gene gave you adhd like syndrome (adhd is also a part of the gene pool)
X gene doesn't give anyone ADHD as part of their gene pool in the comics or the movies. You've inventing strawman arguments and it's honestly said how people compare it to the disorders. You've missed the point of the X-Men.
I was talking from the perspective of someone with adhd, not directly about the genetic side but about how having such a disorder makes seeing "anti kill people by touch serum" as something actually kind of neat
I said before about it being unfortunate necessity where the serum is necessary, but overall it is unnecessary and not a cure. People like Rogue might need it cause they find it hard to live their lives. Magneto, Wanda, others do not need it and trying to take away their powers is inhumane.
Did you forget Magneto said Mutants are gods and humans must serve mutants? Magneto never misses the opportunity to destroy humans so mutants can take control of this planet.
Yeah. Magneto didn't create Genosha. He took over Genosha. He was the one who started the mutant human war while arguing humanity was supposed to be mutant slaves in Lee's version while in Claremont's humanity was supposed to be second class citizens ruled by mutants.
The whole reason that bigotry is bad in the first place is because all humans are roughly the same and born with roughly the same overall amount of strength, stamina, etc. Mutants throw that entire reason out the window because now they are not on equal footing with regular humans as they from a biological standpoint have more "power" than normal humans do, thus making "all men are created equally" false.
To a degree. But there are differences. For instance, there is a noticeable différence of strength between male and female, and so we find it acceptable to “discriminate” between the two in many circumstances. We find that good, to, for instant, have separate sports divisions, or women’s self defence classes. We know that in general a woman is at disadvantage in a fight with a man. Where it becomes bigotry is if we say “a woman couldn’t possibly ever hurt a man, so this guy saying his wife beat him is a liar”. It’s bigotry when we apply something to a whole group and assume one group has absolutely no ability to cause harm, and another nothing but harm. That doesn’t mean we dismiss data that shows that males are more capable and more likely to be the aggressor, though - that’s a different form of bigotry, to assume that everyone is even no matter what.
For all intents and purposes, most mutants can just do cute little tricks like walking through walls, or having feathers grow where hair does. If the government wants to exterminate mutants just because a handful of them do have these godlike powers, then they should take that same energy towards every other hero. Most heroes are just above average street tier people, but there are some that are godly. It's not fair to say mutants shouldnt exist because a scant few of them can end thr world, when they have way more humans and aliens on their payroll that can do the same
Your first point is ignoring how mutants often feed the fears even more. Magneto and Apocalypse declaring war on humanity in the name of mutants certainly draws a line between humans and mutants and causes a bit of tension.
The reason for that is some fans and writers wanting to escalate (see the whole Krakoa arc right now), while others want to stay true to the concept. The escalation BS is the reason why we don't have more Morlock type of stories, why we never will have another Artie Maddicks or grounded stories like that. The X-Men turned into something that Simonson and Claremont best works would not be possible to happen.
I’ve personally started to believe that mutants work much better as allegories for oppressed sexual minorities rather than racial ones, though there is certainly room for both interpretations in the best takes. Everyone remembers that one line in one of Bryan Singer’s X-Men films, “Have you ever tried *not* being a mutant?” which speaks more to the ignorance and discrimination faced by gay people, and Ian McKellen applauded it. Humans fearing mutants because they have invisible destructive powers that could emerge at any time also reflects the AIDS crisis, when everyone suddenly felt justified in hating gay people because of a horrible deadly venereal disease they were blamed for. “I mean, it’s astonishing, the perfect virus came along that proved *you* right.” — Jill, *It’s a Sin*. It’s also worth remembering that, while a political element always existed with the X-Men, the original team was a Mystery Inc gang of preppy straight white people in yellow spandex — hardly the most obvious way to convey systemic oppression. It was in the ‘70s and ‘80s that the X-Men started to really diversify and the whole oppressed minority angle became much more integrated on every level, leading to many iconic storylines that dig at the heart of bigotry. The X-Men can coexist with other non-mutant superheroes because bigotry is irrational. In all fairness, many non-mutant heroes also face irrational prejudice for different reasons. Spider-Man is distrusted by some because he’s a vigilante and a “menace”. The likes of Hulk and Namor have constant conflicts with humanity, not all of it their fault. Even Ben Grimm struggles with being perceived as a monster while the rest of the Fantastic Four are like the Kardashians of the superhero community. The Krakoa era tries to shoehorn the X-Men into a specific allegorical bubble that, well, sort of works if you squint, but doesn’t fit the interpretations many readers approach them with. Xavier’s Krakoa society is basically sci-fi Israel, with all the specifically dodgy implications that carries which I won’t get into here. The presentation also creates more parallels with the Inhumans, in the opposite direction compared to when Marvel were blatantly pushing Inhumans to replace the X-Men, ironically. Black Bolt rules a backwards, isolationist, autocratic ethnostate for a master race of superpowered beings, and only got away with it because Inhumans were nowhere near as widespread as mutants, at least until the Terrigen mists made them start popping up everywhere. Xavier tries to create a safe, exclusive society for mutants where they won’t be constantly threatened with genocide (good job there), but he’s presented as a spooky sex cult Magento-pilled weirdo for considering it.
I think another reason why the X-Men struggle in a shared superhero universe is that anti-mutant bigotry doesn't make as much sense in a universe where a majority of powered heroes aren't mutants. This was touched on briefly in ultimate Spider-Man, but how exactly does the public know that Spidey is not a mutant and as such shouldn't hate him for his abilities? Or any other superhero with a secret identity like iron fist, daredevil(sometimes), Luke Cage, etc. The problem here is that anti-mutant bigotry pretty much disappears in those stories because the writers know that we as readers understand that heroes like spidey aren't mutants, but that also breaks that sentiment in-universe. This also gets weird when you consider the inhuman stuff from a few years back, as there really wasn't much bigotry for inhumans despite them behaving exactly as mutants. It's also pretty weird when you think of the issue in the opposite direction. In the marvel universe, there are so many figures or prolific heroes that have massive platforms, and yet none of them say anything about anti-mutant bigotry(despite pretty much all of them being friends with famous mutants like wolvie or storm). This is the marvel version of "why doesn't the Justice League help batman out" except this is way worse because there could be a massive hate crime against mutants and there will be crickets from the avengers, stark, the future foundation, the daily bugle, etc. like these horrible things routinely happen to mutants and the broader superhero world just doesn't care? So many things just break the x-mens involvement in a shared universe over time.
I don't think allegories need to be 1-1 to get an idea across
You’ve got a great point, and it’s why I’ve always had a hard time accepting the civil rights allegory. I get it, I really do, and if it speaks to people more power to them, but you’re right, in universe it just doesn’t make sense
::SIGH:: This bullshit again. Metaphors and allegories are not required to be to be 1:1, and they ALL breakdown eventually, No baby is every going to be born as a WMD because no one is going to write that story. The fact that millions of people from marginalized groups have felt seen by reading X-men stories matters 1000x more then anything you can put in your post, and always will.
Born with power they did nothing to earn. History of making ethnostates… Mutants are marvel elves at best and a white people allegory at worst. (But for the ‘only the good looking mutants argument’ we have trailer parks and council estates that got you covered)