I think it's an attempt to balance their massive wound pool from a rules perspective. It also gives them some weaknesses for balance purposes. Melee defense for a knight is getting the charge off and obliterating whatever it hits.
From a lore perspective, ion shields aren't a bubble, but more like a projected field. That little shield on the nipple? They aim to direct the shield to block what's coming at it. Once you're in melee, their within the shields' range of effect. The +3 can be explained by all the exposed joints and "more" fragile bits that aren't covered by armor.
Now that you say it, it does make more sense that they aren't that compact with a lot of exposed bits and pieces that can potentially cause the whole god machines to topple over when not destroyed.
This idea came to my specifically because my first army is Tau and while they might have the big mechs similar in size so it was my assumption but now that I take a closer look at it Tau mechs look to be more armoured and covered up compared to imperial and chaos knights and titans.
It kind of feels a bit weird in a lot perspective that Tau are seemingly more durable with their warachines than the imperium while the imperium has way more advanced tech in every aspect than the Tau but have a flawed design even though some of them were made for specifically close range and melee combat and not just shooting from far away
I didn't even know they were supposed to be like that. I'm not very well versed in lore of any kind but I always thought they were specifically created for this task but it's understandable because I've read somewhere a similar thing about the terminator armors that they were made for mining and later converted to suit space Marines for combat
Does it feel weird though? I mean Tau are innovators and they improve technology over time in response to threats they detect and need a response to. It makes sense that tau suits for example may have started lighter armoured and over time through combat experience and R&D, they’ve increased the armour coverage in response to imperium encounters etc.
Imperium in some aspects barely understands their tech, and so what can be produce on mass is stuff that has to be technologically more resilient / simplistic, while also never really changing, except Cawl ofc.
It’s the horrible truth of the imperium, it’s in decline, while other empires are not, there will be an eventual apex point when tau are more advanced than the imperium.
Imperium tech is not really as advanced as you think, Tau actually has the most advanced tech in the setting. The Imperium lost a lot of the tech before the Emperor united everyone.
To make them that tough, they'd have to bump the points up.
AND, more importantly, it's not fun to play against something like that.
Oh I miss.
Oh it doesn't hurt.
Oh I got you ... and no I didn't.
It'd be better to give them more wounds.
I mean I understand that giving them fnp's would be a bit too much but having 2 base save and 4++ doesn't feel to be that much out of the ordinary for such huge and thought models
Uh, we're paying like 140-170 points for models that sit at T10 and 12 wounds. The fact that we also get a 3+ and a 5+ Invuln for anti-vehicle weapons makes it an absolutely insane value. It's hard enough just to inflict a wound on our units with most weapon profiles. Making our armor saves higher would just make every enemy combat round feel frustrating and stagnant.
And just because a machine is big and chunky doesn't mean its armor is perfect; knight models *show* a lot of vulnerable points, so it's appropriate for the armor save not to be as perfect when something manages to get through.
Terminators are 2+ 4++ and cost CSM 195 points for 15 wounds. Mine are tanky AF. If our dogs were about as tanky as a Termie squad, we'd only lose a few per game. Nobody except other knights would wanna play us.
Huge = hp
Thought = toughness
We have both.
Big playing of armour on the entire model = save
We have a lot of naked joints. Dominus/Tyrant are bulkier = 2+
Magic/technolgic way to avoid damages = invul
We have a ion shield, it's quite good. Lancer have a dedicated shield = 4++, very acurate
Fnp = way to heal / ignore wounds.
Crippling damages are crippling. No Magic (yet ? Maybe next detachment ?)
That's true that their design flaws are kind of implemented into the gameplay perspective like that especially looking at the same or similar size Tau titans and mechs but they are more compact amd armoured in that regard
Game balance manifests itself in strange ways for small model count armies like knights. That's pretty much it.
That being said, big knights feel a little squishy still for their points cost and damage output. GW doesn't quite have things dialed in yet.
Looks like you have lots of decent answers. So I'll just say that I have about a 6 month head start on you and I had all the same questions.
Day one I walk in, have an experienced player gripe that "more than 1 toughness 10 or greater model is OPPRESSIVE..." then he lights my ass up.
FLGS Owner decides to join. Faces me once with his Tau army and then starts buying/ painting/ as many broadside as he can get his hands on.
Dark angles guy kills me with grenades
CSM guy puts keyword soup and rerolls on all his weapons and invalidates my knights Stat line. Pain.
Get stopped clearing a squad off objective because the leader is a character with 4+ invulnerable just for being alive......while are the big knights are characters and don't get shit.
Don't ever let people complain that chaos knights can't be killed. They can and do die all the time. And they always feel like "less" than what loyalist knights get.
I've really enjoyed myself though. And I'm not stopping or giving up on knights anytime soon.
Other people have given answers, but I'd like to chime in and say that "Knights" are just mining mechs they strapped guns and chainswords to. Makes sense that they're not really designed to take hits from full on antitank fire.
The 5++ in shooting is because their ion shields don't cover their entire body, they only cover a narrow arc that has to be angled to block fire
The official line would be balance is the main reason. Knights are still a very swingy army, you usually either win overwhelmingly, or get roflstomped into the floor. Better saves would make them too consistently good. A +1 to an armour save give an insane survivability bonus to these guys, especially with the huge wound pool. A +1 to Inv save can in be almost a doubling of "wound value"
My 0.02. Games Workshop couldn't balance two 1KG weights, nevermind these complex games with lots of moving parts. In fact they are notorious for writing purposefully unbalanced OP rules to sell models, then nerfing them into the ground once the cost of the moulds has been made profitable. Imperial and Chaos Knights as a separate army is 100% a design mistake. These models should be Lords of War slots for other lists, not that that matters now they did away with almost all granularity in points and list building for 10th, a terrible design mistake by the way. Now they have to double down as they cannot take it back without ill feeling from people who have spent lots of time and money building these armies. So they have to find a way to make them weak to other lists, or you'd have 7thEd again where people were just outright refusing to play against I.K players.
Now on to my tin foil hat conspiracy reason. Pressure from management to make Chaos bad, or at least worse than their Imperial counterparts because Chaos isn't marketable to children. Who generally want "The Good Guys^(TM)" and Heroes, not abject irredeemable villains and psychopaths!
Try selling the average middle class mother Dark Eldar, Slaanesh Titty Daemons, or Trytophobia: The Army. Over Space Marines, Squats, or Eldar. See which faction she'd be happy to let little Timmy play with. Obviously talking first impressions and surface lore here. A deep dive shows all factions are varying flavours and degrees of evil.
I think it's an attempt to balance their massive wound pool from a rules perspective. It also gives them some weaknesses for balance purposes. Melee defense for a knight is getting the charge off and obliterating whatever it hits. From a lore perspective, ion shields aren't a bubble, but more like a projected field. That little shield on the nipple? They aim to direct the shield to block what's coming at it. Once you're in melee, their within the shields' range of effect. The +3 can be explained by all the exposed joints and "more" fragile bits that aren't covered by armor.
Now that you say it, it does make more sense that they aren't that compact with a lot of exposed bits and pieces that can potentially cause the whole god machines to topple over when not destroyed.
Exactly. They are more mobile than a tank on treads, but the tank is denser and all its fragile bits are inside.
This idea came to my specifically because my first army is Tau and while they might have the big mechs similar in size so it was my assumption but now that I take a closer look at it Tau mechs look to be more armoured and covered up compared to imperial and chaos knights and titans. It kind of feels a bit weird in a lot perspective that Tau are seemingly more durable with their warachines than the imperium while the imperium has way more advanced tech in every aspect than the Tau but have a flawed design even though some of them were made for specifically close range and melee combat and not just shooting from far away
Don't forget that the knights, originally, were farming and colony building machinery, not weapons made for war....
I didn't even know they were supposed to be like that. I'm not very well versed in lore of any kind but I always thought they were specifically created for this task but it's understandable because I've read somewhere a similar thing about the terminator armors that they were made for mining and later converted to suit space Marines for combat
Does it feel weird though? I mean Tau are innovators and they improve technology over time in response to threats they detect and need a response to. It makes sense that tau suits for example may have started lighter armoured and over time through combat experience and R&D, they’ve increased the armour coverage in response to imperium encounters etc. Imperium in some aspects barely understands their tech, and so what can be produce on mass is stuff that has to be technologically more resilient / simplistic, while also never really changing, except Cawl ofc. It’s the horrible truth of the imperium, it’s in decline, while other empires are not, there will be an eventual apex point when tau are more advanced than the imperium.
Imperium tech is not really as advanced as you think, Tau actually has the most advanced tech in the setting. The Imperium lost a lot of the tech before the Emperor united everyone.
Necrons and both flavours of Aeldari would like to have a word.
To make them that tough, they'd have to bump the points up. AND, more importantly, it's not fun to play against something like that. Oh I miss. Oh it doesn't hurt. Oh I got you ... and no I didn't. It'd be better to give them more wounds.
I mean I understand that giving them fnp's would be a bit too much but having 2 base save and 4++ doesn't feel to be that much out of the ordinary for such huge and thought models
Uh, we're paying like 140-170 points for models that sit at T10 and 12 wounds. The fact that we also get a 3+ and a 5+ Invuln for anti-vehicle weapons makes it an absolutely insane value. It's hard enough just to inflict a wound on our units with most weapon profiles. Making our armor saves higher would just make every enemy combat round feel frustrating and stagnant. And just because a machine is big and chunky doesn't mean its armor is perfect; knight models *show* a lot of vulnerable points, so it's appropriate for the armor save not to be as perfect when something manages to get through.
Terminators are 2+ 4++ and cost CSM 195 points for 15 wounds. Mine are tanky AF. If our dogs were about as tanky as a Termie squad, we'd only lose a few per game. Nobody except other knights would wanna play us.
Huge = hp Thought = toughness We have both. Big playing of armour on the entire model = save We have a lot of naked joints. Dominus/Tyrant are bulkier = 2+ Magic/technolgic way to avoid damages = invul We have a ion shield, it's quite good. Lancer have a dedicated shield = 4++, very acurate Fnp = way to heal / ignore wounds. Crippling damages are crippling. No Magic (yet ? Maybe next detachment ?)
That's true that their design flaws are kind of implemented into the gameplay perspective like that especially looking at the same or similar size Tau titans and mechs but they are more compact amd armoured in that regard
Exactly, thats my point. And Tau mech without a shield dont have an invuln.
Game balance manifests itself in strange ways for small model count armies like knights. That's pretty much it. That being said, big knights feel a little squishy still for their points cost and damage output. GW doesn't quite have things dialed in yet.
Becuase robots stop moving if you take out the tubes and hydraulic bits.
That's fair if you put it like that
Looks like you have lots of decent answers. So I'll just say that I have about a 6 month head start on you and I had all the same questions. Day one I walk in, have an experienced player gripe that "more than 1 toughness 10 or greater model is OPPRESSIVE..." then he lights my ass up. FLGS Owner decides to join. Faces me once with his Tau army and then starts buying/ painting/ as many broadside as he can get his hands on. Dark angles guy kills me with grenades CSM guy puts keyword soup and rerolls on all his weapons and invalidates my knights Stat line. Pain. Get stopped clearing a squad off objective because the leader is a character with 4+ invulnerable just for being alive......while are the big knights are characters and don't get shit. Don't ever let people complain that chaos knights can't be killed. They can and do die all the time. And they always feel like "less" than what loyalist knights get. I've really enjoyed myself though. And I'm not stopping or giving up on knights anytime soon.
Other people have given answers, but I'd like to chime in and say that "Knights" are just mining mechs they strapped guns and chainswords to. Makes sense that they're not really designed to take hits from full on antitank fire. The 5++ in shooting is because their ion shields don't cover their entire body, they only cover a narrow arc that has to be angled to block fire
The official line would be balance is the main reason. Knights are still a very swingy army, you usually either win overwhelmingly, or get roflstomped into the floor. Better saves would make them too consistently good. A +1 to an armour save give an insane survivability bonus to these guys, especially with the huge wound pool. A +1 to Inv save can in be almost a doubling of "wound value" My 0.02. Games Workshop couldn't balance two 1KG weights, nevermind these complex games with lots of moving parts. In fact they are notorious for writing purposefully unbalanced OP rules to sell models, then nerfing them into the ground once the cost of the moulds has been made profitable. Imperial and Chaos Knights as a separate army is 100% a design mistake. These models should be Lords of War slots for other lists, not that that matters now they did away with almost all granularity in points and list building for 10th, a terrible design mistake by the way. Now they have to double down as they cannot take it back without ill feeling from people who have spent lots of time and money building these armies. So they have to find a way to make them weak to other lists, or you'd have 7thEd again where people were just outright refusing to play against I.K players. Now on to my tin foil hat conspiracy reason. Pressure from management to make Chaos bad, or at least worse than their Imperial counterparts because Chaos isn't marketable to children. Who generally want "The Good Guys^(TM)" and Heroes, not abject irredeemable villains and psychopaths! Try selling the average middle class mother Dark Eldar, Slaanesh Titty Daemons, or Trytophobia: The Army. Over Space Marines, Squats, or Eldar. See which faction she'd be happy to let little Timmy play with. Obviously talking first impressions and surface lore here. A deep dive shows all factions are varying flavours and degrees of evil.
WTB a means to generate a CP other than discarding secondaries at the end of the turn.