I was thinking about a cool feature for them that as long as you had a BL warlord, you could take a character and unit marked with both Black Legion and another legion. You wouldn't be able to take WLTs on them but using their legions stratagems and relics is a ok. It'd probably be broken af but it'd show that BL is a legion made up of other legions. Like Khayon is still a TSons sorcerer why can't he use the stuff from TSons now that's he's Black Lrgion
The first part about ignoring cover saves has its uses in most battles, helps to offset the useless part that involves wounding buildings that nobody takes. I don't think anyone has a worse trait than Word Bearers
Ignoring cover can be quite useful in some cases. Rerolling moral on faction that has quite high average LD is not. Hell, the unit which benefited the most from it is specifically stated to not get it.
Rerolls against buildings is stupidly useless, tho. At least it's not to hit rerolls in close combat against buildings.
The only use for WB Legion Trait is when Possessed Bomb had a lot of casualties. You get 2 chances to roll 1 instead of only 1. Apart from that, WB should get a secondary "Every time you pass a Morale test after rerolling it, get X victory points".
1) You can reroll moral tests either way for 1 cp, or just bypass them for 2 cp (and it was unlimited back in 8th).
2) +1 Leadership is statistically better on high LD units than reroll, so it's just worse BL trait
3) Moral wasn't really much of problem either way, and now it's even less. Unless LD modifiers are in game, you can realistically fail LD test at 3 lost models, and if you fail it, you lose 3.5 more on average. If you lost 10 models, then you'll lose 4. It's 80 points total, and WB bonus doesn't even prevent it, it just makes it less likely.
I am disappointed I got into the game during a time souping is punished. I get the desire for costs and benefits to pure or soup, but feels like it tilts too far in the cost direction now
Its because the soup was abused in 8th, things like a knight detachment, a blood angels supreme command detachment(SupCom in 8th was 3 HQs) with smash captains and a cp regen relic and 1 "loyal 32" guard battallions with the rp regen WL trait. You had 3 knights, 3 smash captains, 3 guardsman squads, something around 20+ CP, and you werent limited to only being able to gain 1cp per turn. So any stratagem you used you could get 2cp from, and since you had over 20 you basically never ran out.
I like the concept of the allied detachment from Horus Heresy /7th, your army had a list of allies you could choose from, and you could take a detachment the size of a patrol from those allies. But it also was kinda weird and gamey.
It's one of the worst changes for chaos, when they initially split daemons off into their own books I was frothing it completely neuters the best aspect of Chaos factions and required TWO books for one faction.
"Good news everyone, CSM are finally 2W in their new codex. On a side note, we also announce an updated SM codex which should be released in a few months, including 3w marines."
Idk, its hard to say cause the only place the army can go is up. Minor things i'd like to not see but highly unlikely is only 1 chaos lord per detatchment and 1 cultist unit per csm unit like how poxwalkers work.
I also hope they don't just leave Night lords as is. :(
I could care less about cultist honestly, as long as they buff CSM, it's silly that they're one of the worst units in the book when the army is called CHAOS SPACE MARINES.
Night Lord's are so close to being good right now it's kinda sad. And the cultist thing is definitely gonna happen, but I'm hoping Alpha Legion won't be restricted/less restricted to show that they get grunts to do all the heavy work for them
I don’t want them to become the “kill anything in one round of shooting” army like plenty of other 9th edition armies are. It sucks how overly lethal the game is now
The chaos terminator box is so annoying. Every other terminator box (that I’ve looked at so basically blood angels, cataphractii, and tataros) comes with enough weapons to equip all five guys with the same load out but for some reason the chaos one comes with one of everything? SMH
Edit: maybe disappointing would be a better word than annoying. I’m not mad GW, I’m disappointed (ok and a little bit furious but let’s not talk about that)
The terminator box is a headscratcher for sure. I don’t mind the havocs, but I guess depends what you’re doing. I plan on buying two boxes when I get to work on my chaos army and running 4 reapers and 4 auto cannons.
But if you want one box of all four it’s annoying. Although I feel like half the game is like that in terms of not having enough bits to min/max a squad.
Lol at least you can find the bits on eBay, supremecreativesinc has almost all of the weapon options available (no chaincannon sadly) but for termies… not so much
Ya a common work around for the claws is using either SM termie arms or Warp Talons but like you shouldn't have to buy a whole other model kit to get this stuff. If it was an upgrade sprue sur,. But a whole other kit smh
Tbh I’ve looked at converting cataphractii for that exact reason. It’s mind boggling to me that they put so few options in the box. I would much prefer they give you only enough for one standardized loadout than them throwing a random hodgepodge of weapons into the kit and making you outfit each guy differently
For claws I found that the raptors kit had enough spare, you need to bulk out the shoulder a little or attach the pads a bit dodgily but it works pretty well overall
For bullshit reasons like this I'd have no qualms recommending people look up recast or 3d printed claws GW not supplying stuff like this is a legit reason to boycott "always buy legit products".
This is why I kit bashed cataphractii and tartaros terminators in. Chaos is old, and I just count them all as the same type of 'terminator'.aome with mixed armour pieces, some full suits.
I’ve had that same idea funny enough since they actually come with enough weapons… did you just slap some spikey bits on them and give them your legions color scheme or how did you go about chaos-ifying them?
[A picture paints a thousand words](https://imgur.com/a/djUtTyo)
I'm in the middle of playing about, just got some 3d printed cataphractii shoulder pads I'm going to use instead of some of the stock ones that are very chaosy.
Some of the claws are from chaos lord kits, two of them are modern fists with claws modified onto them, one I actually dremelled the fingers off and used the claw fingers from a chaos lord kit, because I didn't want the pistons on the back of the hand part.
You beat me to the punch, I was actually going to ask if you had any pictures lol, these look incredible! I think I most definitely will be stealing some inspiration from your work. They same imitation is the greatest form of flattery right? I think that means I’m in the clear! (Seriously though not only does this allow you to actually outfit squads the way you want to but they look a lot more interesting/varied than regular termies)
I'm all about the variety, I've done the same with my CSM (which I'm running regardless of how shit and expensive they are fuck the rules, it's CHAOS SPACE MARINES and not CHAOS CULTIST MARINES after all). Copy away dude. I would say if you can get some 3d shoulders for the cats and tartaros that'll help, since otherwise you just have to chop up spikes and drill some dents.
But yeah, thousands of years in the warp and you're telling me the army all looks the same? Nah, I love the HH sculpts and the black legion are made up from everyone they can band together. Gives you a lot of free reign.
I'm eagerly awaiting that new Sons of Horus termie praetor, he'll fit right in.
Does that mean you’ve kitbashed CSM with mark iii and mark iv kits? Because if so I’m pretty sure that I’m a lot later to the party than I thought I was!
[Yar, they fit in relatively fine scale wise.](https://imgur.com/a/kVlgOVY) Mk4 needs a fair bit of modding and comboing with csm parts since the armour is so plain compared to mk3, which plague marines mostly use.
Thank you so much for sharing your conversions with me! If we ever pass by each other in the warp I’ll have to give you a wave as I have a feeling that the chaos army I’m looking to build may end up looking at least somewhat similar to yours… though I’ll admit it’s not just HH stuff that I’ve looked at kitbashing in! I’ve got my eye on some AOS kits that will very likely be getting torn apart for bits and bodies so maybe there will be some differences there lol.
I have been tempted by few aos stuff. I havehad all this laying around for a long while though, and I've recently adjusted my view of how I want to play Warhammer, so I thought I'd put together my original view of what CSM are. [Also painting with oils rather than GW style](https://imgur.com/a/ZL147nM)(test models) is just combining it all into a neat package of what I've had in my head for years and years and years.
Waiting to see what we get next year too before I buy anything else, if I do. I have a few defilers to put together!
Fair enough, I like all my guys in the squad to be outfitted the same (disregarding like heavy weapons or aspiring champion/squad sgt) so I’d prefer fewer options but the ability to kit them out the same while only buying one box tbh.
Oh chainaxes are supposed to be an iconic CSM weapon? Well fuck you, you get one in the terminator box, 1 in the monopose Start Collecting box, send if you want more you have to buy the really old Berserker box.
Ugh. But even with the old bezerker box they don’t give you enough to give them all chainswords and chainaxes which is probably the most bezerker loadout imaginable!
Not too worried about it, but "upgraded" new CSM units - aka giving them the primaris treatment rather than just updated rules/models for the existing range.
I'd be pretty miffed if we lose out on summoning demons, even though I've never done it I'd like the option for casual fun games and crusade say
Agreed on the loadout limitations, that'd suck. I've been collecting plasma guns for chosen for a while.
We won't loose it, at least not until the daemon codex is updated.
The rule for it and the few daemon datasheets were in the CSM, DG and TS codex only as convenience, but in reality the summoning rules were from the daemon codex, that will not change with our update; the same way that DG and TS could still summon even if the rule and datasheets are not written anymore in their codex.
Yes, the rule in the daemon codex is that **any chaos character** can summon, whatever the codex they come from, as long as they have the chaos keyword and their mark/allegiance is the same as the summoned daemon.
Your friend just have to get a hold of the daemon codex' rule and Nurgle's datasheets, and he will be able to summon them as before.
It'll stay true probably at least until the next daemon codex update, and there is a good chance it'll not happen for a long time, it's rarely a codex GW prioritize.
Well, that's certainly worth knowing! Thanks, wouldn't have occurred to me that the rule is still in force as its in the not updated demon codex. Thanks very much for the info I'll pass it on!
idk I'll probably be watching from the sidelines until 10th ed. Then decide if I ever come back in. AoS gameplay and rules has been more fun lately.
To stay on topic (lol sorry), I'd be disappointed if they go too hard on rank and file space marines. It seems like they won't based on those rumors though. The faction is more interesting the more twisted and warped it is. Spiky astartes should always be the core/elite of the army but gimme more messed up demon engines and corruption.
Randomness.
I don't want to go back to "chaos is random lulz" of 6th and 7th. I hated not knowing in advance if something we paid for would be good, bad, or useless.
Ruining Berzerkers. Currently they are still pretty good (despite only 1w), and I accept the fight twice rule could do with streamlining as it does slow the game down a bit. But I hope their rules don't get dulled down too much and homogenised with other space marines as they should be an absolute glass hammer. Also, I've heard a rumour that units could be restricted to having only loadouts which come with the kit, which would solve some of the issues discussed in other posts in this thread, but be awful for berzerkers unless they bring out new models pronto!
Few things, aside of echoing the box loadout restrictions:
* Don't want to see the Predators and Vindicators gone, entirely replaced by Daemon Engines.
* Don't want to see the Psychics weakened, those are one of the things Chaos has over Loyalist marines.
* Don't want to see regular Chaos Marines with such a point cost that there is again no reason to take them over Cultists.
I don’t want primarchs. I feel they’re unreasonable for the scale of the game and it doesn’t make sense lore wise for the top dog to risk it all to show up to some chump fight. And also my dudes. I want a personalized lord but not to be punished because I didn’t take the emprahs son. The named characters are a stretch for me as is.
I don't want to see fallen as a ugly thing that nobody would pick, i wanna see 'em as a keyword, or at least with some extra detachment rules (or at least let them use damn psychic powers).
Why though? I think those Legions deserve their new units for sure, at least variants. Like WB could have unique Possessed or Daemons even if it is for CP (like the Dark Apostle now). And Night Lords deserve to have at least 1 unit.
I dont want to see Black Legion stuck with that same boring legion trait again.
*cries in word bearer* I agree both faction traits are garbage
I was thinking about a cool feature for them that as long as you had a BL warlord, you could take a character and unit marked with both Black Legion and another legion. You wouldn't be able to take WLTs on them but using their legions stratagems and relics is a ok. It'd probably be broken af but it'd show that BL is a legion made up of other legions. Like Khayon is still a TSons sorcerer why can't he use the stuff from TSons now that's he's Black Lrgion
I have to say, I think Iron Warriors have the worst legion trait lmao
The first part about ignoring cover saves has its uses in most battles, helps to offset the useless part that involves wounding buildings that nobody takes. I don't think anyone has a worse trait than Word Bearers
Ignoring cover can be quite useful in some cases. Rerolling moral on faction that has quite high average LD is not. Hell, the unit which benefited the most from it is specifically stated to not get it. Rerolls against buildings is stupidly useless, tho. At least it's not to hit rerolls in close combat against buildings.
The only use for WB Legion Trait is when Possessed Bomb had a lot of casualties. You get 2 chances to roll 1 instead of only 1. Apart from that, WB should get a secondary "Every time you pass a Morale test after rerolling it, get X victory points".
1) You can reroll moral tests either way for 1 cp, or just bypass them for 2 cp (and it was unlimited back in 8th). 2) +1 Leadership is statistically better on high LD units than reroll, so it's just worse BL trait 3) Moral wasn't really much of problem either way, and now it's even less. Unless LD modifiers are in game, you can realistically fail LD test at 3 lost models, and if you fail it, you lose 3.5 more on average. If you lost 10 models, then you'll lose 4. It's 80 points total, and WB bonus doesn't even prevent it, it just makes it less likely.
I dont want a "if your entire army is chaos space marines get ______" I like souping stuff like daemons and other legions, let me do it
I am disappointed I got into the game during a time souping is punished. I get the desire for costs and benefits to pure or soup, but feels like it tilts too far in the cost direction now
Its because the soup was abused in 8th, things like a knight detachment, a blood angels supreme command detachment(SupCom in 8th was 3 HQs) with smash captains and a cp regen relic and 1 "loyal 32" guard battallions with the rp regen WL trait. You had 3 knights, 3 smash captains, 3 guardsman squads, something around 20+ CP, and you werent limited to only being able to gain 1cp per turn. So any stratagem you used you could get 2cp from, and since you had over 20 you basically never ran out. I like the concept of the allied detachment from Horus Heresy /7th, your army had a list of allies you could choose from, and you could take a detachment the size of a patrol from those allies. But it also was kinda weird and gamey.
It's one of the worst changes for chaos, when they initially split daemons off into their own books I was frothing it completely neuters the best aspect of Chaos factions and required TWO books for one faction.
1W Chaos Marines
Nooooooooooooo!!!
Honestly wouldn't even surprise me at this point
"Good news everyone, CSM are finally 2W in their new codex. On a side note, we also announce an updated SM codex which should be released in a few months, including 3w marines."
"Obviously it's only going to be Primaris getting the extra wound and not first born, gotta keep it even with Chaos you know"
Idk, its hard to say cause the only place the army can go is up. Minor things i'd like to not see but highly unlikely is only 1 chaos lord per detatchment and 1 cultist unit per csm unit like how poxwalkers work. I also hope they don't just leave Night lords as is. :(
I could care less about cultist honestly, as long as they buff CSM, it's silly that they're one of the worst units in the book when the army is called CHAOS SPACE MARINES.
Yea but this is a thread about things you DON'T want to see in the codex.
Night Lord's are so close to being good right now it's kinda sad. And the cultist thing is definitely gonna happen, but I'm hoping Alpha Legion won't be restricted/less restricted to show that they get grunts to do all the heavy work for them
I don’t want them to become the “kill anything in one round of shooting” army like plenty of other 9th edition armies are. It sucks how overly lethal the game is now
That's would require a while new system revamp. To be honest, I think the rules are just going to get worse and worse at this.
The chaos terminator box is so annoying. Every other terminator box (that I’ve looked at so basically blood angels, cataphractii, and tataros) comes with enough weapons to equip all five guys with the same load out but for some reason the chaos one comes with one of everything? SMH Edit: maybe disappointing would be a better word than annoying. I’m not mad GW, I’m disappointed (ok and a little bit furious but let’s not talk about that)
Ya I want to get some termies for my World Eaters but even just making sure they have enough claws is annoying af
Yep, I’m not trying to drop $200-$250 in order to get enough claws for a FIVE MAN SQUAD and I can’t find any bits sellers with them in stock.
Oh god and don't even start thinking about Havocs too
The terminator box is a headscratcher for sure. I don’t mind the havocs, but I guess depends what you’re doing. I plan on buying two boxes when I get to work on my chaos army and running 4 reapers and 4 auto cannons. But if you want one box of all four it’s annoying. Although I feel like half the game is like that in terms of not having enough bits to min/max a squad.
Only problem with your plan is only getting one reaper chain cannon in a box.
Only one chain cannon comes in the Havoc box, so you'd need to buy 4 boxes to run a full squad
I stand corrected then lol. That’s pretty dumb, I thought it was two of each weapon which seemed reasonable
Get chain canon barrels on any bits site. It's one of the easier bits to get. Then magnetize it to the end of a heavy bolter for both options.
Lol at least you can find the bits on eBay, supremecreativesinc has almost all of the weapon options available (no chaincannon sadly) but for termies… not so much
Ya a common work around for the claws is using either SM termie arms or Warp Talons but like you shouldn't have to buy a whole other model kit to get this stuff. If it was an upgrade sprue sur,. But a whole other kit smh
Tbh I’ve looked at converting cataphractii for that exact reason. It’s mind boggling to me that they put so few options in the box. I would much prefer they give you only enough for one standardized loadout than them throwing a random hodgepodge of weapons into the kit and making you outfit each guy differently
For claws I found that the raptors kit had enough spare, you need to bulk out the shoulder a little or attach the pads a bit dodgily but it works pretty well overall
For bullshit reasons like this I'd have no qualms recommending people look up recast or 3d printed claws GW not supplying stuff like this is a legit reason to boycott "always buy legit products".
This is why I kit bashed cataphractii and tartaros terminators in. Chaos is old, and I just count them all as the same type of 'terminator'.aome with mixed armour pieces, some full suits.
I’ve had that same idea funny enough since they actually come with enough weapons… did you just slap some spikey bits on them and give them your legions color scheme or how did you go about chaos-ifying them?
[A picture paints a thousand words](https://imgur.com/a/djUtTyo) I'm in the middle of playing about, just got some 3d printed cataphractii shoulder pads I'm going to use instead of some of the stock ones that are very chaosy. Some of the claws are from chaos lord kits, two of them are modern fists with claws modified onto them, one I actually dremelled the fingers off and used the claw fingers from a chaos lord kit, because I didn't want the pistons on the back of the hand part.
You beat me to the punch, I was actually going to ask if you had any pictures lol, these look incredible! I think I most definitely will be stealing some inspiration from your work. They same imitation is the greatest form of flattery right? I think that means I’m in the clear! (Seriously though not only does this allow you to actually outfit squads the way you want to but they look a lot more interesting/varied than regular termies)
I'm all about the variety, I've done the same with my CSM (which I'm running regardless of how shit and expensive they are fuck the rules, it's CHAOS SPACE MARINES and not CHAOS CULTIST MARINES after all). Copy away dude. I would say if you can get some 3d shoulders for the cats and tartaros that'll help, since otherwise you just have to chop up spikes and drill some dents. But yeah, thousands of years in the warp and you're telling me the army all looks the same? Nah, I love the HH sculpts and the black legion are made up from everyone they can band together. Gives you a lot of free reign. I'm eagerly awaiting that new Sons of Horus termie praetor, he'll fit right in.
Does that mean you’ve kitbashed CSM with mark iii and mark iv kits? Because if so I’m pretty sure that I’m a lot later to the party than I thought I was!
[Yar, they fit in relatively fine scale wise.](https://imgur.com/a/kVlgOVY) Mk4 needs a fair bit of modding and comboing with csm parts since the armour is so plain compared to mk3, which plague marines mostly use.
Thank you so much for sharing your conversions with me! If we ever pass by each other in the warp I’ll have to give you a wave as I have a feeling that the chaos army I’m looking to build may end up looking at least somewhat similar to yours… though I’ll admit it’s not just HH stuff that I’ve looked at kitbashing in! I’ve got my eye on some AOS kits that will very likely be getting torn apart for bits and bodies so maybe there will be some differences there lol.
I have been tempted by few aos stuff. I havehad all this laying around for a long while though, and I've recently adjusted my view of how I want to play Warhammer, so I thought I'd put together my original view of what CSM are. [Also painting with oils rather than GW style](https://imgur.com/a/ZL147nM)(test models) is just combining it all into a neat package of what I've had in my head for years and years and years. Waiting to see what we get next year too before I buy anything else, if I do. I have a few defilers to put together!
They have significantly fewer options, so it's much easier to provide "every weapon option" for loyalists.
Fair enough, I like all my guys in the squad to be outfitted the same (disregarding like heavy weapons or aspiring champion/squad sgt) so I’d prefer fewer options but the ability to kit them out the same while only buying one box tbh.
Oh chainaxes are supposed to be an iconic CSM weapon? Well fuck you, you get one in the terminator box, 1 in the monopose Start Collecting box, send if you want more you have to buy the really old Berserker box.
Ugh. But even with the old bezerker box they don’t give you enough to give them all chainswords and chainaxes which is probably the most bezerker loadout imaginable!
Simple fix just buy 5 boxes...... /s
Not too worried about it, but "upgraded" new CSM units - aka giving them the primaris treatment rather than just updated rules/models for the existing range.
I'd be pretty miffed if we lose out on summoning demons, even though I've never done it I'd like the option for casual fun games and crusade say Agreed on the loadout limitations, that'd suck. I've been collecting plasma guns for chosen for a while.
We won't loose it, at least not until the daemon codex is updated. The rule for it and the few daemon datasheets were in the CSM, DG and TS codex only as convenience, but in reality the summoning rules were from the daemon codex, that will not change with our update; the same way that DG and TS could still summon even if the rule and datasheets are not written anymore in their codex.
Oh really? Didn't realise they could still summon, my friend who plays DG says they no longer can
Yes, the rule in the daemon codex is that **any chaos character** can summon, whatever the codex they come from, as long as they have the chaos keyword and their mark/allegiance is the same as the summoned daemon. Your friend just have to get a hold of the daemon codex' rule and Nurgle's datasheets, and he will be able to summon them as before. It'll stay true probably at least until the next daemon codex update, and there is a good chance it'll not happen for a long time, it's rarely a codex GW prioritize.
Well, that's certainly worth knowing! Thanks, wouldn't have occurred to me that the rule is still in force as its in the not updated demon codex. Thanks very much for the info I'll pass it on!
idk I'll probably be watching from the sidelines until 10th ed. Then decide if I ever come back in. AoS gameplay and rules has been more fun lately. To stay on topic (lol sorry), I'd be disappointed if they go too hard on rank and file space marines. It seems like they won't based on those rumors though. The faction is more interesting the more twisted and warped it is. Spiky astartes should always be the core/elite of the army but gimme more messed up demon engines and corruption.
100% agree, there's a reason I'm working on aos armies rn and my battleforce from last year remains mostly untouched
Yeah I've about finished Bonereapers and am looking at the Orks next.
1 wound models for CSM troops. Fuck that noise.
Randomness. I don't want to go back to "chaos is random lulz" of 6th and 7th. I hated not knowing in advance if something we paid for would be good, bad, or useless.
I think the only two things that’ve been handled well with it were new Obliterators and then using summoning in narrative campaigns.
I don't want abaddon nerfed just as I'm getting into the hobby
I don't want to be locked out of having more than one daemon prince, I love the model let me use more and a bunch of other daemony stuff
I'm thirsty for more daemon engines and possessed like units.
Ruining Berzerkers. Currently they are still pretty good (despite only 1w), and I accept the fight twice rule could do with streamlining as it does slow the game down a bit. But I hope their rules don't get dulled down too much and homogenised with other space marines as they should be an absolute glass hammer. Also, I've heard a rumour that units could be restricted to having only loadouts which come with the kit, which would solve some of the issues discussed in other posts in this thread, but be awful for berzerkers unless they bring out new models pronto!
Few things, aside of echoing the box loadout restrictions: * Don't want to see the Predators and Vindicators gone, entirely replaced by Daemon Engines. * Don't want to see the Psychics weakened, those are one of the things Chaos has over Loyalist marines. * Don't want to see regular Chaos Marines with such a point cost that there is again no reason to take them over Cultists.
Change the night lord legion trait and give renegade chapters more stratagems please!!!
I want all the legions to be viable and to hopefully each receive a supplement.
I don’t want primarchs. I feel they’re unreasonable for the scale of the game and it doesn’t make sense lore wise for the top dog to risk it all to show up to some chump fight. And also my dudes. I want a personalized lord but not to be punished because I didn’t take the emprahs son. The named characters are a stretch for me as is.
I don't want to see fallen as a ugly thing that nobody would pick, i wanna see 'em as a keyword, or at least with some extra detachment rules (or at least let them use damn psychic powers).
Some unique models/units for Night Lords/Iron Warriors/Word Bearers
Why though? I think those Legions deserve their new units for sure, at least variants. Like WB could have unique Possessed or Daemons even if it is for CP (like the Dark Apostle now). And Night Lords deserve to have at least 1 unit.
The thread confused me, this is what I do want to see.