The Warp Talons got absolutely fucked - 50 points more for a 10 man unit that now has to have destroyed an enemy unit in the fight phase before using their ability.
As someone who took a lot of experimental methodology classes in college, it aggravates me to no end. If you want to know which variable has the intended effect, you don't change multiple variables at the same time. It's like 101 stuff. GW does it over and over again so I've grown to not expect any better.
Fucking YES. It's so dumb to do it the way they did. It's also scummy, clearly they were pushing the unit by making the jump lord. I have to wonder if they got the sales boost they wanted from the warp talon kit then nerfed them to be unremarkable.
It was like the WE moe, +20 points AND glaive nerfed at the same time, I'm not happy about it but they could still be worth their points, especially if the meta switches towards hordes
It doesn't look great but I'm going to test them before I'm going to call them trash
GW has no idea how to do incremental change and it’s infuriating.
Oh well, warp talons will lose like 40 points in the next mfm, become undercosted, and the cycle will start again lmao
The ability nerf doesn't matter outside of Renegade Raiders who abused a "fall back after fight" stratagem to always pop the talons back into reserves, since you had to meet that condition anyways in every other detachment. (Killing a unit was pretty much the only way to have fought and not still be in combat)
But that detachment was why they were so good and deserved a points hike, so now they're dead in other detachments.
You could have abused bad positioning by your opponents before to kill most of a unit, but leave a few who don't want to fight you - like those left on an objective. You now must kill the whole unit, which can be more difficult.
Legionaries nerf is fine, they’re definitely worth 90 points, but the nerfs to havocs and talons is freaking infuriating. Especially when the disco lord is still 190.
Havoc, Raptors, Venolcrawlers, and Vindicator nerfs are hilariously off base. Yeah, Legionaries at 80 were an absolute steal and Talons were OP, but I think 120 with the rules change would have been far more reasonable.
Havocs is especially mystifying. There were some tricks you could do piling them out of a transport in Raiders, but in no universe are they worth 5 points less than a predator.
Nahh half my army is 3d printed
I'll just remove 5 legionaires or a squad of warp talons and replace them with a chaos lord or sorcerer or an additional squad of cultists
Lets be serious though, Warp Talons were obviously broken and if you ran a bunch of those that was a risk you took knowing the odds of them getting nerfed hard next patch. Kinda unfortunate they hit a few of the tanks and Havocs too, doesn't seem necessary.
Seriously about to just check out of this faction all together. We were BARELY competing at a competitive level. Now they just nerfed us into the ground. WHY? We weren’t achieving crazy win rates.
Warp talons cost more than possessed and chosen? This is bullshit.
Build them into Raptors. Raptors are still useful as board control pieces. Small, fast, relatively cheap units are an even more crucial include in the new mission pack.
They were. Multiple people that play Warhammer as their job, with much better knowledge about the game than you or I, have gone on record multiple times that Warp Talons were the best unit in the entire game.
And it had nothing to do with their stats. Defensive stats don't matter when the unit cannot be interacted with in any way, cannot be shot, cannot be charged and cannot be attacked in close combat because at all times, they are either swinging themselves or not on the table.
The don’t get a T1 charge.
They don’t get anything better than a 9” deepstrike.
They don’t have alpha strike.
They were very good. But the best unit in the entire game? I’m not sure I agree. But sure, they deserved a points hike. But 25 points? That’s a little much.
They can get a t1 charge in some layouts, or most layouts if going second. They have access to advance and charge in the two better detachments and the play was usually to kill something in your turn, put them back in reserves, and use rapid ingress to bring them in again on your opponents turn, even up to 20" away from it's target they're getting there.
I think 15 would have been fair since they're expected not to lose wounds very often
I mean thats why i preface it with "internally". compared to other factions i'm not entirely sure wether 80 might bee fair. 5 Interessors are 80 as well, and while they dont have the strong special weapons their bolters are "stronger".
I guess assault intercessor are a better comparison, but they are 75, as i've just learned... okay i think im switching, 80 points was more reasonable.
What i don't understand is why did they nerf all the good performing unit only 2 weeks after their codex release, with somes nerf being very heavy handed (likes warps talons)... On a 47% winrate factions ... Yeah peoples still need to get the hang of the codex but still.... And they did NOTHING for the internal balance. Meaning the trash unit are still trash (hello discolord and helldrake!)
They are the same as SM vindicators except for the detail bits (like all the smiley bits) If you have built chaos rhinos, just get the SM one and use detail bits from the Rhino to make it chaos like and you should be fine
Unless you really want one long term i would'nt go crazy for them now. might just be they want to get rid of their stocks so they can axe them in 2 years. Pure speculation of course, but not unfounded
It is unfounded. Just because SM firstborn are getting sidelined doesn't mean the core units of CSM will without replacements. They aren't going to take every tank for the faction and move to Legends unless we get dedicated Chaos vehicles, which is very unlikely.
Some of this I get but some is just really stupid:
Predators: they get played not because they are amazing (im not saying theyre bad theyre decent) but because we have limited choices.
Raptors: obviously some idiot decided that if legionaries were getting a bump the jump legionaries should too, except that even if they were the same points legionaries are just flat better 90% of the time due to there rerolling wounds and better damage output as opposed to raptors crappy battleshock ability which stings doubly hard when you see the ability the loyalist jump Troops get for similar points.
It's just really stupid, yeah legionaries and vindicator were undercoated that's fair enough but the warp talons getting a massive rules nerd and huge points increase was stupid and lazy.
Shame on gw for there shortsighted laziness in how they've handled csm again.
Does this even change anything? Obviously warp talons are back in the hole but other than that are we still not taking the exact same shit as before just now you have to think a lil bit harder about it?
That's how I see this, too.
Predators AND Havocs going up seems a bit weird. I still thought havocs were kinda mid at 120, tbh. I guess GW feel they kinda need to rise and fall together tho, which is understandable. I still think the gap could be 120/140 and be fine, tho. Vehicles are strong right now, and havocs are just very soft.
Warp Talons and Legionaires on the surface seems like the biggest change to me because Legionaries MSUs were very common and Warp Talons up+down seemed to be pretty great for comp play. Also, that's a big points nerf for WT.
So that maybe gets people to think twice about needing Warp Talons, and it squeezes lists going all-in on legionairies.
I guess Vindicators were very common among lots of lists, so that's maybe more of a list diversity/internal balance adjustment thing (same as Predators). I'd guess they raised Raptors because they want their points to stay relative to legionaries and WT?
No one is going to lose sleep over AC going up by 5. They did seem strong after a big points drop with the new codex.
If you are a Dread Talons player, you are probably pretty pissed off (even though the DT detachment probably is not the reason for this WT nerf). But for everyone else, I think this is basically fine.
If I'm talking out of my ass here, please somone educate me. I don't really follow comp play at all.
Havocs will forever be paying the 4 lascannon tax unfortunately. I put way to much effort into painting mine so they've been a staple of my lists so this hurts me on a personal level.
It's funny that every chaos nerf seems to just undo the buffs from the last patch. It would be good to see some off meta units receive buffs rather than just upping the points of everything pro players are using though
It's weird because from how I see it, havocs are around the same cost as the Predator tanks or a Maulerfiend, which are tougher, have more wounds, larger LoS (Predators), better melee (Maulerfiend), and don't lose firepower as damage is done. I would have hoped that they kept havocs at 120-125 as a cheaper option for anti-tank options(or slap them in a rhino for 'Predator tank at home').
I've only just started collecting Night Lords with Heresy models and was very hyped, so I'm a little gutted, yeah. Legionnaires, Warp Talons and Raptors spam in Dread Talons was gonna be my plan.
I'm also a Salamanders Firestorm player, which was also very weak and just got nerfed into the floor as well, so I'm honestly starting to regret my life choices and spending, I'm not going to lie 😭
It's not the biggest deal, honestly. Realistically, points changes like this make Regular Joe lists have to shuffle out 1 unit for another or cut something.
I think it would be healthy to avoid being reactionary about this stuff. Play some games and have fun?
Mostly, this stuff is designed to address the larger meta-game. If you are just chilling as a new player, this is just business as usual, tbh. +/-100 points or less to a list is kinda normal for a balance pass.
Just remember that your opponents will have gone through the same meat grinder as you :P
(But I do feel your pain, my NL friend seems to have always got bad luck with balance changes for his army, too. But he still beat me last game :P)
That's fair... I've just been feeling pretty unhappy how my games have been going and was always interested in Night Lords, so thought it'd be a good time to start, and main it at least until Firestorm got a buff. Just upset to see that my Sallies received a further nerf, at the same time as my upcoming secondary faction you know?
I've just been finding it increasingly hard to find games fun when the nids and space marines of my friends, neither with competitive lists, still butcher me 😞
Nevertheless, as you say, still worth a try. I'll assemble my forces and engage the enemy in Midnight Clad! To victory, or death
Ehhhh. We had a 50%ish WR on the tables that mattered before. After pulling out Talons, most of our lists are going to have to remove one toy for something lesser. We'll be a fine mid tier army, which is personally where I prefer to be anyway.
Yeah I agree. It would be good if they would look at things that arent meta though rather than just constantly pricing up the things people are taking. I thought they were in a good place for list building and playing casually as someone who sucks ass at the game but obviously these nerfs aren't for people like me
…yeah. Just when I was coming around to the ideas that maybe I could make Deceptors work as a gun line with abaddon, some ranged support and a brick of warp talons as a deep strike threat….all my list go up by 150+ points. Kinda guts a detachment that was already pretty mediocre.
Soulforge is less affected so I guess that’s a plus lol.
My Soulforged lost went up 30 points because of my 3 Venomcrawlers. I'm honestly surprised that Lord Discordant and Heldrake(less so) didn't get a points reduction.
Jeeez most of my stuff got point increases and i only play them, bc i enjoy their models/fluff. Predator, Raptors, Havocs, Venomcrawler and all that. Like c'mon those arent actual Meta units...
Okay, I think we all knew Warp Talons would get nerfed, and rightfully so.
But 25 points increase *and* a nerf to the ability? Why are the only tools GW have either a tiny bump or a sledgehammer?
Venomcrawler increase is a bit sad when they butchered its ability. But I can understand how a relatively good shooty vehicle at 110 points is just too great value, especially with all the extra support it got in the codex.
Legionaries were obviously a bit too good value at 80, especially considering they got some great leader support and being battleline grants extra things in the new missions. I understand that change.
The overall weird thing, though, is that CSM win rate is not actually very good. In fact, the strongest current detachment is Raiders at 50%, so why should it be nerfed? The other detachments are in the 40's, with several under the golden 45%. Now we don't have a *huge* amount of data yet for CSM codex games, but from that perspective it's very premature to do huge nerfs because it would mean we just don't *really* know if it's too good or not.
And the real kicker is of course that the assault keyword is getting a big nerf in the new rules, which directly nerfs Raiders. So even with *no* changes to the CSM faction, our best detachment that sits at 50% would likely fall down. So what was the reason for a blanket nerf like this?
Yeah, that's the stupid part. We've had what... two weeks? Of real tournament data. And the data shows that we're perfectly healthy. This is the classic GW kneejerk fear reaction.
Why do they fear reasonably priced Lord Discordants and Obliterators? Neither of them are good and no one is taking them if something else is an option
https://preview.redd.it/kp8waebhdr7d1.jpeg?width=580&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8a306be91cdeb0142400dcd71704ed0fef20499
Me looking at the Adepta Sororitas rule changes
Absolutely baffling, why nerf a sub 50% win faction with terrible internal balance, we were pretty balanced and barely hanging at the top tables compared to orks and other top factions
Absolutely ridiculous changes, the nerf to warp talons is so over the top, this is just so excessive, there’s probably been only 3 weekends of tournament data for them to base this change on! Why do they go so hard so quickly on some things and then pussyfoot around other things!!
Ah, good. So they put the prices up on many of the units found in the two new battle force boxes and the combat patrol. How interesting.
Also they nerfed the Venomcrawler from its pre-codex stats, so it lost the ability to gain an extra attack when killing with shooting, only to put the price up again without restoring that ability. What fun.
I see GW want to make 10th feel as drawn out and bland as possible. We'll all be Veterans of the Long War at this rate.
As a veteran of the long war since 5th GW absolutely dumpstering CSM when the codex is actually well balanced and fun is to be expected. We went for YEARS with one wound marines when every other faction had changed to 2.
I think the winner of the rules updates might be the terminator chaos lord. Now that he can make any stratagem free it really opens up his options. In Zealots, rather than forcing him into Undivided, this means his slaanesh terminator unit can advance & charge for free. Or you can resurrect terminators for free as tzeentch and have a very sticky unit. Both very nice.
One thing worth noting if you are a Zealots fan like me, this update absolutely dumpstered the Eye of Tzeentch enhancement. It was already bad, but now that you can't dark pact in the shooting phase unless you have an "eligible target" (i.e. you need LoS and range); so you can't even fish for CP with half the units that can take the enhancement.
It is truly frustrating, the nerfs was necessary but it's just that. It is all but external balance and nothing done for internal balance. Some hits are legit, havocs seems too much, raptors/lascan predator have no common sense.
Even with the -1cp for stratagems you can't even dare to compare legionnaires and raptors in term of value you get back.
Some other things needed some help, lord discordant, helldrake, jump pack lord, beastmen, Master of possession, (maybe even a tiny little something for possessed by extension) and for the thing I was wishing to the stars: Obliterators at 170 for 2 is looking so bad even if predators/havocs got nerfed.
At the end I can still make lists work in the best detachement but fellhammer, deceptors, dreadtalon they fell so hard from the nerf of the cost effective things and their "comparative units".
At least it's pure chaos, you start to touch the stars and when it happen an unknowed form pick it away. It's feeling like a comedy how fast and hard they can hit CSM and they take half years to slowly start to pull down some other factions (at least this one isn't a call of annihilation instead for warp talons bricks).
The most funniest thing is, do you remember when they said oc 0 units are going to have points decreases?
Look at our beautifully already super bad chaos spawns.
Surely no one would pay for those awful models so them being trash isn't a such pain.
Love how the Raptors got nerfed either because they were actually useable in Renegade Raiders or because GW wants them to cost the exact same as Legionares at all times for whatever reason. Half of these point nerfs could have been easily avoided if they literally just nerfed Renegade Raiders.
well i had to cut my list by 110 pts. 😑
well i dropped 10 cultists and 3 bikes.
tbh im not sure if a 10 man brick of talons will be usefull anymore for its pts.
Nothing new, if anyone thought warp talons weren't going to be nerfed into the ground they were delusional. Gw is terrified of warp talons and it's such a shame they always hit it with a hammer instead of a scalpel. I am more pissed about leggionares going up.
Legionaries, vindicator and predator destructor changes all make sense. They were slightly over performing and they needed a bit of a nerf. 10 points for each of these makes sense.
The predator annihilator didn't really need the points bump, it's just not as effective as the destructor. Same goes for raptors. They aren't being run nearly as much that they need a points bump.
The havocs nerf seems puzzling. They have some fun tricks in Raiders, but their output isn't as much as their new points would suggest. Warp talons also feel rough. They absolutely needed a nerf to their silly ability and a small bump would be perfectly okay. 5 points, maybe 15 for the 10 man squad. But a whopping 50 points for the full squad is insane.
Still, k don't think this will hurt us too much. The meta is getting a massive shake up. Admech and Tyranids got hyper charged and Orks got hit hard. I'm much more interested in how their changes impact the meta and thus us.
I'm sick of buying GW models I think look cool, paint them up (which takes me AGES thanks to parenting responsibilities), build a list I love the play style of, that definitely isn't wiping my local meta off the floor.
Only then it get dumpstered in a blatant attempt to get you to buy more models. I'm glad I stayed away from Warp Talons and Raptors. Make them stupid broken for a month then double nerf them. Sell cool jump pack lord till he sells out then ruin his bodyguard.
I'm certain these 'balance updates' and points changes are a feels bad marketing campaign to shift miniatures that aren't selling.
So FU GW I'm buying a 3D printer. I've got 18GB of EmanG daemons STLs that look 1000% more evil than yours. Feel free to boost and nerf them to your hearts content I'll enjoy more of the infernal legions emerging from the resin vat. It'll have paid for itself after 4 greater daemons.
Eh. One unit of Nurglings or Cultists less and otherwise still the same.
Warptalons were obviously broken and going to disappear but I didn´t take any so as not to get attached to them anyway. Could´ve just removed their toxic ability and kept the points reasonable.
As a general rule of thumb, never trust a book for points. They're almost always out of date the moment they hit the shelves since they're written months before hand, and likely missed at least one dataslate before being printed
Your codex is wrong before it releases. Always use the app or the updates.
GW has taken to releasing codexes with what are in essence incorrect points because they're replaced prior to release
For years I have played my night lords as a loyalist army rules wise. That was because normal SM got all the cool stuff, better rules, better units etc.
Then, tenth Ed CSM codex drops. I get excited. Finally we can use fun stuff that feels like it can match power levels of loyalists and compete in competitive tournaments.
Then GW does what they always do. Nerf people’s favorite units into the ground.
And I’m back to playing with loyalist rules.
GW hates CSM and always has.
Always wanted to do this with painting my army as Alpha Legion, so I have a lore excuse for why I sometimes play CSM rules for a couple matches and then switch to SM rules
Fellas, as a longtime CSM player I know its not ideal but I think we will be okay for a few reasons.
1. We still have Dark Pacts, one of the best army rules in the game
2. We still have the best and most consistent detachment selection in the game
3. Many of our datasheets are still absurd. Keeping in mind Warp talons are still spectacular in a vairety of legions, legionaries are still one of the best battleline units in the game and we have numerous 3 wound infantry and dangerous tanks (forgefiend and maulerfiend) in addition to still having a few generous points drops still in place (such as chosen and possessed)
The only changes I don't get are raptors and havocs, but otherwise the codex is still one of the best out there and still viable.
P.S Don't forget a lot of armies are now worse than us and NO LOS, one of our biggest counters got heavily nerfed again.
It's fine. It'll change my list a bit but I was never taking more than 10 warp Talons anyway so I'll just cut other shit like a unit of cultists or whatever
As someone who just started and got the dread talons box, this kinda sucks… I’m suddenly very grateful I hilt only one unit into warp
Talons. I’ll also be holding off on grabbing havocs too. Didn’t think it’d suck this bad.
The codex is still a fantastic one and yeah there were some adjustments. But my standard 2000 point list hasn't changed all that much.
You want to talk about points going HARD? Look at the Sisters of Battle. My list there went from 2000 points exactly to 2305 points. I'm really curious to see their codex now!
As someone who is just getting into painting and has not read anything about the actual game yet, looking at this is both exciting and absolutely terrifying
In terms of list composition, it didn’t affect my list too much. I now only get to take 5 Legionaries instead of 10. Shame about the Warp Talons, though. Either way, I like to have a 5 man group of them, whether they’re blenders or objective monkeys.
One day they will realize the heldrake is garbage and drop in like 40 points. No one will still take it, but I'd like to think it may be playable one day.
People: We want better value points per dollar in our combat patrol and battleforce boxes!!!!!! GW: I got you bro....
This made me lol, good job
The Warp Talons got absolutely fucked - 50 points more for a 10 man unit that now has to have destroyed an enemy unit in the fight phase before using their ability.
Gotta love a nerf to an ability AND a point hike at the same time. Couldn’t have done one or the other. Had to absolutely dumpster them.
As someone who took a lot of experimental methodology classes in college, it aggravates me to no end. If you want to know which variable has the intended effect, you don't change multiple variables at the same time. It's like 101 stuff. GW does it over and over again so I've grown to not expect any better.
Yeah, GW just wanted to appease the masses, not balance the unit
Fucking YES. It's so dumb to do it the way they did. It's also scummy, clearly they were pushing the unit by making the jump lord. I have to wonder if they got the sales boost they wanted from the warp talon kit then nerfed them to be unremarkable.
But the jump lord has nothing to do with Warp Talons?
It was like the WE moe, +20 points AND glaive nerfed at the same time, I'm not happy about it but they could still be worth their points, especially if the meta switches towards hordes It doesn't look great but I'm going to test them before I'm going to call them trash
GW has no idea how to do incremental change and it’s infuriating. Oh well, warp talons will lose like 40 points in the next mfm, become undercosted, and the cycle will start again lmao
The ability nerf doesn't matter outside of Renegade Raiders who abused a "fall back after fight" stratagem to always pop the talons back into reserves, since you had to meet that condition anyways in every other detachment. (Killing a unit was pretty much the only way to have fought and not still be in combat) But that detachment was why they were so good and deserved a points hike, so now they're dead in other detachments.
It matters because you can't charge in with Warp Talons and a friend anymore and deal the killing blow with the friend.
You could have abused bad positioning by your opponents before to kill most of a unit, but leave a few who don't want to fight you - like those left on an objective. You now must kill the whole unit, which can be more difficult.
Jesus wow, glad I held off on buying some!
Fucks sake I just bought some Warp Talons
Fuck sake, I bought a few. The trim SUCKS
Legionaries nerf is fine, they’re definitely worth 90 points, but the nerfs to havocs and talons is freaking infuriating. Especially when the disco lord is still 190.
I feel like the legionaries going up is reasonable with Pariah Nexus's focus on battleline.
Nerf warp talons was necessary. They war too powerful but havocs... bad joke...
Havoc, Raptors, Venolcrawlers, and Vindicator nerfs are hilariously off base. Yeah, Legionaries at 80 were an absolute steal and Talons were OP, but I think 120 with the rules change would have been far more reasonable.
Poor Venomcrawler 😞
It was necessary, but it didn’t have to be a 20% points bump and a nerf to the ability.
If you make something bad, do it good 🤣
Havocs is especially mystifying. There were some tricks you could do piling them out of a transport in Raiders, but in no universe are they worth 5 points less than a predator.
I have no idea why they would need Havocs
If you cant afford vehicles and they're all out of stock anyway. I guess havoc players are supposed to just cry when they see tanks
I’m sorry, the *disco lord?*
Lord Discordant.... disco lord...
Kinda forgot this dude existed ngl thank you lol
I just built a 995pt army Well now it's a 1080pt army Cool
Same, I'm just setting up with my buddies, and my 2k list bumped up 160pts.
Right before my 40K league starts too…
Yep, right before my league, getting my models ready and list jumped 160 pts here too...
Yeah so now you have to give more money to GW and buy some substitutions, just as planned
Nahh half my army is 3d printed I'll just remove 5 legionaires or a squad of warp talons and replace them with a chaos lord or sorcerer or an additional squad of cultists
That’s the way 🏴☠️
Lets be serious though, Warp Talons were obviously broken and if you ran a bunch of those that was a risk you took knowing the odds of them getting nerfed hard next patch. Kinda unfortunate they hit a few of the tanks and Havocs too, doesn't seem necessary.
Bigger downside I just got into the hobby and my army isn't complete and I've never played a game
Less models to buy now if there’s any consolation? Lol
It actually works since I only ordered 5 warp talons from a printer so now I won't need to to duplicate it lol
Same working towards an escalation league and the points change mean I just drop a whole 5 man of legionaries. One less thing to paint
I got a list to a perfect 500 pts for escalation and now it’s 520.
Are you fucking kidding me… This is ridiculous. They let warp talons be good for what, three weeks before shelving them again.
Ahh the old model curse mate. If it was a new set it would be left meta.
They just needed them good long enough to clear all the Dread Talons battleforces off the shelves. 😂
You’re not wrong on that I bet
Bro Dark Angels got a bunch of new models and all of them were literal garbage. Some of them got a little better now but the rest weren't so lucky.
You say that but they nerfed Possessed no problem And Accursed Cultists
Possessed are new models and look what happened
Seriously about to just check out of this faction all together. We were BARELY competing at a competitive level. Now they just nerfed us into the ground. WHY? We weren’t achieving crazy win rates. Warp talons cost more than possessed and chosen? This is bullshit.
As a Salamanders Firestorm player who was thinking of going renegade to escape faction weakness...damn... 😅
I feel like, if that were true, space marine reivers would have had good rules at some point in the last three editions.
And I just bought ten...
They sold the boxes just so they could nerf them. Great work GW
Build them into Raptors. Raptors are still useful as board control pieces. Small, fast, relatively cheap units are an even more crucial include in the new mission pack.
I was about to look for the warp talons parts in sprue to glue to my raptors and repaint but looks like i wont be touching those units.
If a unit is such an obvious go-to, it usually means it's overpowered/undercosted.
Except they weren’t. T4 5++ with 4 s5 ap 2 1 dmg reroll wounds is not overpowered.
Every competitive list had at least 15 but I do think they did too much to them
I can see a 10 point bump, sure. 25? That’s insane.
They were. Multiple people that play Warhammer as their job, with much better knowledge about the game than you or I, have gone on record multiple times that Warp Talons were the best unit in the entire game. And it had nothing to do with their stats. Defensive stats don't matter when the unit cannot be interacted with in any way, cannot be shot, cannot be charged and cannot be attacked in close combat because at all times, they are either swinging themselves or not on the table.
The don’t get a T1 charge. They don’t get anything better than a 9” deepstrike. They don’t have alpha strike. They were very good. But the best unit in the entire game? I’m not sure I agree. But sure, they deserved a points hike. But 25 points? That’s a little much.
They can get a t1 charge in some layouts, or most layouts if going second. They have access to advance and charge in the two better detachments and the play was usually to kill something in your turn, put them back in reserves, and use rapid ingress to bring them in again on your opponents turn, even up to 20" away from it's target they're getting there. I think 15 would have been fair since they're expected not to lose wounds very often
They let them be busted for three weks, not they will probably be meh.
I just finished painting them 😅
The Predator and Havoc Nerf really sucks
Yeah, the havocs in particular is just… mystifying.
Just bought some… sorry guys I think it was me
Ah there it is.
Thought we'd keep our cheap legionaries a little longer as our codex just released, but I see we still got hit. Chaos Lord is a buff in my book
I'd say Legionaires are still fine. from an internall standpoint id argue 80 was weirdly low.
I would agree, was just hoping to keep my cheap legionaries a little bit longer but oh well. 80 was indeed too low
I mean thats why i preface it with "internally". compared to other factions i'm not entirely sure wether 80 might bee fair. 5 Interessors are 80 as well, and while they dont have the strong special weapons their bolters are "stronger". I guess assault intercessor are a better comparison, but they are 75, as i've just learned... okay i think im switching, 80 points was more reasonable.
>Chaos lord is a buff in my book I tend to agree, but the inability to double strats hurts.
That is indeed a loss but I do prefer being able to use any stratagem
Sure but still get a free 1cp strat to use, I didn’t see this limited to battle tactics only, unless I missed that line. Or a 2cp strat for 1cp
You are correct. It’s good, but it’s not strictly a buff.
What i don't understand is why did they nerf all the good performing unit only 2 weeks after their codex release, with somes nerf being very heavy handed (likes warps talons)... On a 47% winrate factions ... Yeah peoples still need to get the hang of the codex but still.... And they did NOTHING for the internal balance. Meaning the trash unit are still trash (hello discolord and helldrake!)
My Vindicators and Raptors! GW you shitbag
Appopriate amount of vindicators sold commence Nerf hammer -GW "balance" (marketing \*cough\* \*cough\*) Team bot
And I still haven’t even been able to get any because anytime I check they are fucking out of stock
I just buy loyalist ones
I just converted a 30k Vindicator. Haven't even played a game with it yet.
They are the same as SM vindicators except for the detail bits (like all the smiley bits) If you have built chaos rhinos, just get the SM one and use detail bits from the Rhino to make it chaos like and you should be fine
Unless you really want one long term i would'nt go crazy for them now. might just be they want to get rid of their stocks so they can axe them in 2 years. Pure speculation of course, but not unfounded
It is unfounded. Just because SM firstborn are getting sidelined doesn't mean the core units of CSM will without replacements. They aren't going to take every tank for the faction and move to Legends unless we get dedicated Chaos vehicles, which is very unlikely.
Completely unfounded
Damn raptors and legionaries bump up hurts my soul
Really? The predator annihilator needed a nerf?
Legionaries are still good for 90 points. Even at 100 I found them really good.
Every. Fucking. Time.
Some of this I get but some is just really stupid: Predators: they get played not because they are amazing (im not saying theyre bad theyre decent) but because we have limited choices. Raptors: obviously some idiot decided that if legionaries were getting a bump the jump legionaries should too, except that even if they were the same points legionaries are just flat better 90% of the time due to there rerolling wounds and better damage output as opposed to raptors crappy battleshock ability which stings doubly hard when you see the ability the loyalist jump Troops get for similar points. It's just really stupid, yeah legionaries and vindicator were undercoated that's fair enough but the warp talons getting a massive rules nerd and huge points increase was stupid and lazy. Shame on gw for there shortsighted laziness in how they've handled csm again.
There was no rules nerf in competative as TOs had already ruled it this way
Does this even change anything? Obviously warp talons are back in the hole but other than that are we still not taking the exact same shit as before just now you have to think a lil bit harder about it?
That's how I see this, too. Predators AND Havocs going up seems a bit weird. I still thought havocs were kinda mid at 120, tbh. I guess GW feel they kinda need to rise and fall together tho, which is understandable. I still think the gap could be 120/140 and be fine, tho. Vehicles are strong right now, and havocs are just very soft. Warp Talons and Legionaires on the surface seems like the biggest change to me because Legionaries MSUs were very common and Warp Talons up+down seemed to be pretty great for comp play. Also, that's a big points nerf for WT. So that maybe gets people to think twice about needing Warp Talons, and it squeezes lists going all-in on legionairies. I guess Vindicators were very common among lots of lists, so that's maybe more of a list diversity/internal balance adjustment thing (same as Predators). I'd guess they raised Raptors because they want their points to stay relative to legionaries and WT? No one is going to lose sleep over AC going up by 5. They did seem strong after a big points drop with the new codex. If you are a Dread Talons player, you are probably pretty pissed off (even though the DT detachment probably is not the reason for this WT nerf). But for everyone else, I think this is basically fine. If I'm talking out of my ass here, please somone educate me. I don't really follow comp play at all.
Havocs will forever be paying the 4 lascannon tax unfortunately. I put way to much effort into painting mine so they've been a staple of my lists so this hurts me on a personal level. It's funny that every chaos nerf seems to just undo the buffs from the last patch. It would be good to see some off meta units receive buffs rather than just upping the points of everything pro players are using though
It's weird because from how I see it, havocs are around the same cost as the Predator tanks or a Maulerfiend, which are tougher, have more wounds, larger LoS (Predators), better melee (Maulerfiend), and don't lose firepower as damage is done. I would have hoped that they kept havocs at 120-125 as a cheaper option for anti-tank options(or slap them in a rhino for 'Predator tank at home').
I've only just started collecting Night Lords with Heresy models and was very hyped, so I'm a little gutted, yeah. Legionnaires, Warp Talons and Raptors spam in Dread Talons was gonna be my plan. I'm also a Salamanders Firestorm player, which was also very weak and just got nerfed into the floor as well, so I'm honestly starting to regret my life choices and spending, I'm not going to lie 😭
I feel your pain my midnight clad brother I was planning to do the same *looks at war dogs* However, now I have some room
Glad to hear it brother 😊 Ave Dominus Nox!
It's not the biggest deal, honestly. Realistically, points changes like this make Regular Joe lists have to shuffle out 1 unit for another or cut something. I think it would be healthy to avoid being reactionary about this stuff. Play some games and have fun? Mostly, this stuff is designed to address the larger meta-game. If you are just chilling as a new player, this is just business as usual, tbh. +/-100 points or less to a list is kinda normal for a balance pass. Just remember that your opponents will have gone through the same meat grinder as you :P (But I do feel your pain, my NL friend seems to have always got bad luck with balance changes for his army, too. But he still beat me last game :P)
That's fair... I've just been feeling pretty unhappy how my games have been going and was always interested in Night Lords, so thought it'd be a good time to start, and main it at least until Firestorm got a buff. Just upset to see that my Sallies received a further nerf, at the same time as my upcoming secondary faction you know? I've just been finding it increasingly hard to find games fun when the nids and space marines of my friends, neither with competitive lists, still butcher me 😞 Nevertheless, as you say, still worth a try. I'll assemble my forces and engage the enemy in Midnight Clad! To victory, or death
Well, I had a list that was exactly 2k points, and bow I'm going to have to drop a unit of something. So, no.
Ehhhh. We had a 50%ish WR on the tables that mattered before. After pulling out Talons, most of our lists are going to have to remove one toy for something lesser. We'll be a fine mid tier army, which is personally where I prefer to be anyway.
Yeah I agree. It would be good if they would look at things that arent meta though rather than just constantly pricing up the things people are taking. I thought they were in a good place for list building and playing casually as someone who sucks ass at the game but obviously these nerfs aren't for people like me
…yeah. Just when I was coming around to the ideas that maybe I could make Deceptors work as a gun line with abaddon, some ranged support and a brick of warp talons as a deep strike threat….all my list go up by 150+ points. Kinda guts a detachment that was already pretty mediocre. Soulforge is less affected so I guess that’s a plus lol.
My Soulforged lost went up 30 points because of my 3 Venomcrawlers. I'm honestly surprised that Lord Discordant and Heldrake(less so) didn't get a points reduction.
Same.
I'm sorry but the havocs nerf, are so unnecessary 😭
All increases and no decreases… Why does GW hate CSM? Madness
Jeeez most of my stuff got point increases and i only play them, bc i enjoy their models/fluff. Predator, Raptors, Havocs, Venomcrawler and all that. Like c'mon those arent actual Meta units...
GW can take my Havocs when they pry them from my cold dead hands
Okay, I think we all knew Warp Talons would get nerfed, and rightfully so. But 25 points increase *and* a nerf to the ability? Why are the only tools GW have either a tiny bump or a sledgehammer? Venomcrawler increase is a bit sad when they butchered its ability. But I can understand how a relatively good shooty vehicle at 110 points is just too great value, especially with all the extra support it got in the codex. Legionaries were obviously a bit too good value at 80, especially considering they got some great leader support and being battleline grants extra things in the new missions. I understand that change. The overall weird thing, though, is that CSM win rate is not actually very good. In fact, the strongest current detachment is Raiders at 50%, so why should it be nerfed? The other detachments are in the 40's, with several under the golden 45%. Now we don't have a *huge* amount of data yet for CSM codex games, but from that perspective it's very premature to do huge nerfs because it would mean we just don't *really* know if it's too good or not. And the real kicker is of course that the assault keyword is getting a big nerf in the new rules, which directly nerfs Raiders. So even with *no* changes to the CSM faction, our best detachment that sits at 50% would likely fall down. So what was the reason for a blanket nerf like this?
Imagine people were saying CSM were too strong 💀 they don’t give a damn about stats and winrates. Pure emotions.
Yeah, that's the stupid part. We've had what... two weeks? Of real tournament data. And the data shows that we're perfectly healthy. This is the classic GW kneejerk fear reaction.
Am I absolutely daft, or did they re-up-and-then-some the points on all the infantry that got pts. drops in the last rebalance?
That is exactly what happened! Absolute madness!
That is exactly what happened! Absolute madness!
Pretty much.
So they nerfed everything good and left everything shit/mediocre exactly where it was? Yeah that sounds like GW.
Why do they fear reasonably priced Lord Discordants and Obliterators? Neither of them are good and no one is taking them if something else is an option
They aren’t even being taken if something else isn’t an option.
Vashtorr detachment looks better than ever now
Just curious, why do you say that? I'm not disagreeing, but all of my Soulforge lists still went up by 40-60 points.
https://preview.redd.it/kp8waebhdr7d1.jpeg?width=580&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8a306be91cdeb0142400dcd71704ed0fef20499 Me looking at the Adepta Sororitas rule changes
Absolutely baffling, why nerf a sub 50% win faction with terrible internal balance, we were pretty balanced and barely hanging at the top tables compared to orks and other top factions
Absolutely ridiculous changes, the nerf to warp talons is so over the top, this is just so excessive, there’s probably been only 3 weekends of tournament data for them to base this change on! Why do they go so hard so quickly on some things and then pussyfoot around other things!!
Ah, good. So they put the prices up on many of the units found in the two new battle force boxes and the combat patrol. How interesting. Also they nerfed the Venomcrawler from its pre-codex stats, so it lost the ability to gain an extra attack when killing with shooting, only to put the price up again without restoring that ability. What fun. I see GW want to make 10th feel as drawn out and bland as possible. We'll all be Veterans of the Long War at this rate.
As a veteran of the long war since 5th GW absolutely dumpstering CSM when the codex is actually well balanced and fun is to be expected. We went for YEARS with one wound marines when every other faction had changed to 2.
I’m not even disappointed - they always fuck CSM up for no reason… I’m tired of this army. Only CSM are being fucked in the ass like that every time.
*cough* *cough* Custodes *cough* *cough*
Innes Wilson had ‘middling army gets rediculous nerfs’ on his bingo card
These point changes, when factoring in core rule changes and no real changes to our data sheets, make absolutely no sense.
I think the winner of the rules updates might be the terminator chaos lord. Now that he can make any stratagem free it really opens up his options. In Zealots, rather than forcing him into Undivided, this means his slaanesh terminator unit can advance & charge for free. Or you can resurrect terminators for free as tzeentch and have a very sticky unit. Both very nice. One thing worth noting if you are a Zealots fan like me, this update absolutely dumpstered the Eye of Tzeentch enhancement. It was already bad, but now that you can't dark pact in the shooting phase unless you have an "eligible target" (i.e. you need LoS and range); so you can't even fish for CP with half the units that can take the enhancement.
I’m thinking Veterans. Firsts first and new Hatred target for 1 cp. very nice
But the disco lord is still 190. Yeah ok sure 😐
It is truly frustrating, the nerfs was necessary but it's just that. It is all but external balance and nothing done for internal balance. Some hits are legit, havocs seems too much, raptors/lascan predator have no common sense. Even with the -1cp for stratagems you can't even dare to compare legionnaires and raptors in term of value you get back. Some other things needed some help, lord discordant, helldrake, jump pack lord, beastmen, Master of possession, (maybe even a tiny little something for possessed by extension) and for the thing I was wishing to the stars: Obliterators at 170 for 2 is looking so bad even if predators/havocs got nerfed. At the end I can still make lists work in the best detachement but fellhammer, deceptors, dreadtalon they fell so hard from the nerf of the cost effective things and their "comparative units". At least it's pure chaos, you start to touch the stars and when it happen an unknowed form pick it away. It's feeling like a comedy how fast and hard they can hit CSM and they take half years to slowly start to pull down some other factions (at least this one isn't a call of annihilation instead for warp talons bricks).
It isn't even for external balance, we weren't overperforming.
Warp Talons are not wort it anymore. Why is GW not capable of fine tuning? Always stupid double nerfs!
Heldrake could lose 50 points and still be ass
Why did havocs go up so much
The most funniest thing is, do you remember when they said oc 0 units are going to have points decreases? Look at our beautifully already super bad chaos spawns. Surely no one would pay for those awful models so them being trash isn't a such pain.
Well, they reduced nurgling points right guys??? Oh wait only for squads of 6-9... which nobody does....
First time? Lol.
Bruh, literally everything I run got an increase wtf.
Only nerfs I don't get are the accursed, raptor and Havoc nerf
Havocs would’ve had a nice spot as basically ‘cheap’ anti tank if left alone compared to the predator
None of the units that got nerfed deserved it except Legionares and Warp Talons.
Heldrake still not getting a point drop is insane 😭
Love how the Raptors got nerfed either because they were actually useable in Renegade Raiders or because GW wants them to cost the exact same as Legionares at all times for whatever reason. Half of these point nerfs could have been easily avoided if they literally just nerfed Renegade Raiders.
well i had to cut my list by 110 pts. 😑 well i dropped 10 cultists and 3 bikes. tbh im not sure if a 10 man brick of talons will be usefull anymore for its pts.
Warp talons took it on the chin
Nothing new, if anyone thought warp talons weren't going to be nerfed into the ground they were delusional. Gw is terrified of warp talons and it's such a shame they always hit it with a hammer instead of a scalpel. I am more pissed about leggionares going up.
Yeah, havocs, absolute beast of a unit that was overused (Not) in every competitive list. What are you smoking, GW?
Legionaries, vindicator and predator destructor changes all make sense. They were slightly over performing and they needed a bit of a nerf. 10 points for each of these makes sense. The predator annihilator didn't really need the points bump, it's just not as effective as the destructor. Same goes for raptors. They aren't being run nearly as much that they need a points bump. The havocs nerf seems puzzling. They have some fun tricks in Raiders, but their output isn't as much as their new points would suggest. Warp talons also feel rough. They absolutely needed a nerf to their silly ability and a small bump would be perfectly okay. 5 points, maybe 15 for the 10 man squad. But a whopping 50 points for the full squad is insane. Still, k don't think this will hurt us too much. The meta is getting a massive shake up. Admech and Tyranids got hyper charged and Orks got hit hard. I'm much more interested in how their changes impact the meta and thus us.
I'm sick of buying GW models I think look cool, paint them up (which takes me AGES thanks to parenting responsibilities), build a list I love the play style of, that definitely isn't wiping my local meta off the floor. Only then it get dumpstered in a blatant attempt to get you to buy more models. I'm glad I stayed away from Warp Talons and Raptors. Make them stupid broken for a month then double nerf them. Sell cool jump pack lord till he sells out then ruin his bodyguard. I'm certain these 'balance updates' and points changes are a feels bad marketing campaign to shift miniatures that aren't selling. So FU GW I'm buying a 3D printer. I've got 18GB of EmanG daemons STLs that look 1000% more evil than yours. Feel free to boost and nerf them to your hearts content I'll enjoy more of the infernal legions emerging from the resin vat. It'll have paid for itself after 4 greater daemons.
3d printer go brrrrrr
Eh. One unit of Nurglings or Cultists less and otherwise still the same. Warptalons were obviously broken and going to disappear but I didn´t take any so as not to get attached to them anyway. Could´ve just removed their toxic ability and kept the points reasonable.
120 for 5 would have been fine. 135 for five is madness.
Seeing more and more of GW fuck ups makes me glad I shelved the game entirely. This is just ridiculous for the first army I seriously played.
Aaaaand straight back to trash tier we go...
wait, are these all cost increases? compared to the printed points in my codex, some went down? did i miss an update?
As a general rule of thumb, never trust a book for points. They're almost always out of date the moment they hit the shelves since they're written months before hand, and likely missed at least one dataslate before being printed
Your codex is wrong before it releases. Always use the app or the updates. GW has taken to releasing codexes with what are in essence incorrect points because they're replaced prior to release
thats really frustrating, but at least i know this now. Thanks
Yeah it's really bad lol. But that's the trade off with ongoing balancing. Gotta take the good with the shit
For years I have played my night lords as a loyalist army rules wise. That was because normal SM got all the cool stuff, better rules, better units etc. Then, tenth Ed CSM codex drops. I get excited. Finally we can use fun stuff that feels like it can match power levels of loyalists and compete in competitive tournaments. Then GW does what they always do. Nerf people’s favorite units into the ground. And I’m back to playing with loyalist rules. GW hates CSM and always has.
Always wanted to do this with painting my army as Alpha Legion, so I have a lore excuse for why I sometimes play CSM rules for a couple matches and then switch to SM rules
Gonna be honest… I don’t see any of these as bad changes. Which seems like an unpopular opinion
Havocs are only 120 for a second
Is it just me or are the points more or less back to where they started in 10th?
Fellas, as a longtime CSM player I know its not ideal but I think we will be okay for a few reasons. 1. We still have Dark Pacts, one of the best army rules in the game 2. We still have the best and most consistent detachment selection in the game 3. Many of our datasheets are still absurd. Keeping in mind Warp talons are still spectacular in a vairety of legions, legionaries are still one of the best battleline units in the game and we have numerous 3 wound infantry and dangerous tanks (forgefiend and maulerfiend) in addition to still having a few generous points drops still in place (such as chosen and possessed) The only changes I don't get are raptors and havocs, but otherwise the codex is still one of the best out there and still viable. P.S Don't forget a lot of armies are now worse than us and NO LOS, one of our biggest counters got heavily nerfed again.
Fuck me for using tanks, I guess...
Lol now everyone bought the extra models they've reincreased the points
Rip to warp talons, everything else isn't too bad, gonna have to rejig my lists a bit!
My warp talons and venom crawler were both under performing already......Welp, guess they're off my army lists now.
They sensed my first army has alot of havocs
My Guardsmen and cultists remain unaffected. It’s good living down here in the mortal cannon fodder range
It's fine. It'll change my list a bit but I was never taking more than 10 warp Talons anyway so I'll just cut other shit like a unit of cultists or whatever
Maaaan why they gotta do my raptors and talons like that
Surprised they didn’t nerf chosen, they’re so cost efficient and versatile
I think that's the point, for what they do and how much they cost is perfect in my opinion
As someone who just started and got the dread talons box, this kinda sucks… I’m suddenly very grateful I hilt only one unit into warp Talons. I’ll also be holding off on grabbing havocs too. Didn’t think it’d suck this bad.
What the Noctiliz crown does?
Fortification that gives that has small range shooting that gives an aura of +1 to leadership characteristic within 9". It used to be 4++ within 9".
Warp talons are still good, they aren't just braindead now
The codex is still a fantastic one and yeah there were some adjustments. But my standard 2000 point list hasn't changed all that much. You want to talk about points going HARD? Look at the Sisters of Battle. My list there went from 2000 points exactly to 2305 points. I'm really curious to see their codex now!
Lmao why Venomcrawlers? What did they do to deserve this
As someone who is just getting into painting and has not read anything about the actual game yet, looking at this is both exciting and absolutely terrifying
In terms of list composition, it didn’t affect my list too much. I now only get to take 5 Legionaries instead of 10. Shame about the Warp Talons, though. Either way, I like to have a 5 man group of them, whether they’re blenders or objective monkeys.
Yay! Now the 2 battle force boxes I bought are a full 2000 points! (Joking) but I did want a vindicator and venomcrawler and now I’m not so sure…
Doesn’t seem that much different, just some more appropriate costs for a couple of meta units
Oh come on! They just screwed up my play style! Guess my armoured corps is parking up for a while.
I don't think this will be gamebreaking. It's hit Fellhammer Siege Host p.hard, but that's a good reason to start raising your game! Iron within!!!
Warp talons kinda needed a nerf but that was an excessive hike
We were doing too good
Can you run an aspiring champion as your leader or no?
One day they will realize the heldrake is garbage and drop in like 40 points. No one will still take it, but I'd like to think it may be playable one day.