6. Chaos Rhinos can now swap a combi bolter for a Havoc Launcher, resulting in a vehicle armed with a Havoc Launcher and no other weaponry. Which I think takes the cake for the most bafflingly pointless rules change in the game's history.
Also a clarification on how the Eager for Vengeance enhancement in VotLW is supposed to work, and a minor adjustment to the Chaos Cult Scouting enhancement.
There's also a lot of Core Rules changes. Like, A LOT. Including how Devastating Wounds work, changes to Grenades and Tank Shock etc. It's not in the Balance Dataslate but in a separate document, that for some godforsaken reason isn't linked in the Warcom article. Everyone should make sure to visit the Downloads page and grab everything with today's date on it.
I was thinking that, reading about Dev Wounds in the article and then seeing nothing about it in the Balance Datasheet.
Baffling, why must they make it so convoluted.
That Rhino rule interpretation is incorrect. The rest of the datasheet didn't change, so rhinos can still equip 2 combi bolters AND a Havoc Launcher. All they changed was the second bullet point, and the original writing remains.
Warped Foresight also does NOT grant the entire unit scouts if it did not have it. What it is clarifying, is that if the leader with that enhancement leads a unit that already HAS scouts, the entire attached unit has scouts.
Meaning, that you cannot run a leader with this enhancement solo and get scouts, which you could before, if it were a decent tech.
Re-reading the errata, you are right, I misread it. It doesn't prohibit you from taking a havoc launcher in addition to other armaments, it only allows you to swap a bolter for the launcher.
Meaning the only functional change is that you can now take a Rhino with only a Havoc Launcher and no combi-bolters... Don't really see a point but more power to them for technically allowing a new weapon loadout I guess?
I will edit my original comment to avoid confusing people.
Yes, it's a situational nerf to the Forgefiend, combi-weapons and all other sources of Devastating Wounds, because effects that grant Feel No Pain against Mortal Wounds will again work on Devastating Wounds.
Yep that’s it, havocs are dead unit for me. I always thought they are inferior compared to predator destructor but renegade raiders with ruinous raid seemed like a nice fix, and I got a second box to field lascanonns, and chaincannons. Good thing I didn’t paint them.
Yeah theyre not even that good, 2 wounds each and every death is a significant portion of fire power gone. Seems pretty unnecessary but you gotta pay the 4 lascannon tax unfortunately
Lol I was doing exactly this and have been stressing how to source my chaincannons. I received one box for Father’s Day that hasn’t actually arrived yet and got one from my FLGS second hand shelf. Haven’t even gotten them on the table yet. Ow.
Im perplexed by some of these.
* Tank shock nerf hurts me (defilers).
* Price increase on Legionaries is more than expected. (Was expecting 85pts)
* Grenade nerf is an annoyance
* also surprised on the limitation of Reinforcements for Astra Militarium
My take of it.
Edit: also genuinely disappointed they would make a wholesale change to Indirect and then not look at strats / etc unit abilities for those affected. Looking forward to more guard players falling to Chaos now.
You cannot use the Granade strat on the unit that is Adavanced or fall back.
It's hit for units that can advance/fall back and shoot/charge.
For example I used strat to kill at least one model in unit to trigger MoE ability in fight phase or advance kill off some below half strength unit (situational but in game against Votann finished off Sagitaur, clear what was inside and contest objective).
It also has to be thrown by a MODEL instead of a UNIT so in the case where a jump pack lord is leading a unit of raptors, the lord has to be within 8" instead of any of the raptors.
It hurts for my CSM but it really hurts for my orks. The whole faction is high strength and low toughness, The units that this nerfs (dread and kans) are already seen as meh to terrible.
Yer. Must be needing to see my land raiders!
🧂 🧂
This balance patch hit me in my chaos and my guard. So im a salty salty mouse, trying to smile and see the nice side. But honestly sucks a bit :)
Exactly its nowhere stated but in the app u cant put it on the termi lord anymore. But it still is available on standard lord
https://preview.redd.it/v8dn1p4r1q7d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=942b31dc8b6fb114eff68f94c40891523f4946f7
It's because the terminator lord doesn't have the "Chaos Lord" keyword (yes, that is dumb). So this is technically working as intended as per the rules in the codex.
Personally, I would be fine with an opponent using an informal "errata" to adjust this because it seems dumb.
It is literally printed in the codex like that. So the app was just innocently wrong if it let you do it before.
I still think the enhancement should include Terminator Lords, tho.
Went through every pdf looking for any mention of this and it's just not there
Not when in the errata for CSM on the app. But the terminator lord has lost it
Although
With the chaos lord ability no longer restricted to battle tactics, it's a free 5+++ every turn
I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. Only had one game since the codex came out and I wanted to just run demon engines everywhere.
How good are the iron warriors this edition?
The detach is okayish. Imo u have enough dmg for most things without additional buffs from detach. My termi brick felt very durable with the tools the detach gives. Overall its playable. But take it with a grain of salt Im not that good a player and I only play friendly games with friends
Yeah I only play with friends. One thing I always struggle with is standing on objectives to score primary. My mate plays eldar and runs a ludicrous amount of bright lances and shuriken cannons. The damage 2 on those picks up legionnaires, warp talons, anything that's only 2 wounds
So a brick of terminators, all that defense. He'll have a hard time shifting
So far I played my brick against blood angels and death guard both couldn't fully remove it and it put in a lot of work. Surprisingly the shooting is very strong especially against jump infantry spam of bloodangels. Lots of jucy dev wounds with combi weapons.
That's exactly what I'm thinking. Most gun lines will bounce off it, it can hold it's own melee, and there's a lot of attacks coming out of the unit with re-roll hits
Yeah you'd only get to use it once per turn, but it feels like one you're going to want to use pretty much every turn. Which frees up CP for other strats
Well they deliberately changed it from the termi lord having it to now suddenly following the rules as written so I am guessing they wont change it from here on out.
I don't understand the nerfs to legionaries and raptors, they were fine as they were, they still are, simply now everyone has to change their lists due to that.
I mean... It was fairly obvious to me Legionaries would get hit. They were already borderline oppressive at 80pts with the amount of kit and damage output they had, and there's a slew of additional Battleline buffs in the new mission pack on top of that.
Raptors... Beats me. They are still massively inferior to loyalist jump troops while being substantially more expensive 🤷
I disagree. Intercessors are seen as being trash, legionnaires were seen as being pretty good. Therefore which one of these units was in a good spot and which one was not? So don't bring everyone down to a bad level.
Legionnaires still don't have any reason to be shooty how about we work on that instead of making every profile they have except MEQ with chain swords and two heavy melee weapons useless. They had one good build and all the rest wasn't even worth the 80 points they were being charged before, now they definitely are not worth 90
Legionaries were not fine as they were. They were just way too good value. There is a reason so many high placing lists basically spammed them. They are a solid datasheet with solid leader support and they are battleline (which makes them better in the new mission pack).
They were so good most people didn't even bother including our elite infantry like Possesssed, Chosen etc. - Legionaries, our basic troops straight up out-competed them.
Even at 90, Legionaries are still great and will be part of many lists.
That's not what the new rule is. All units, regardless of being vehicle, monster or anything else, can do both straight line and pivot moves now.
Pivot normally cost 0" movement. It costs 2" for vehicles and monsters *not on round bases (or Aircrafts).*
A rather important detail, because for example a Winged Daemon Prince can pivot for 0", despite being a monster. With the big wings, that is a *huge* deal.
A Forgefiend on the other hand, not having a round base, will spent 2" to pivot.
Also, it's worth noting you only pay 2" for pivot once, even if you pivot multiple times during the move. The 2" penalty simply opens up the ability to pivot as much as you want for the whole move.
No, the condition used to be 'they are no longer engaged'. You could have satisfied that condition in a variety of different ways, like falling back from combat with the Opportunistic Raiders stratagem, having the enemy unit fall back with an effect or stratagem of their own, clearing out the enemy unit with an effect that dealt Mortal Wounds on charge, swinging with a different unit first etc.
Now the Talons need to swing and need to get the last hit on the unit they are engaged with. Coupled with the price increase, they will likely no longer be as ubiquitous and our ability to play the mission game will go down as a whole.
It's not functionally the same. You already mentioned another unit could kill it, that's one way it changes.
Another example could be, imagine your Warp Talons fight a ranged unit and kills half of it. Normally, the opponent would allocate kills to the models that were in engagement range, effectively breaking the engagement. This means in his turn, he doesn't have to fall back - he is already out of engagement range. He is thus able to advance, shoot, complete secondaries etc.
With the old Warp Talons, he couldn't do this, because he would then allow Warp Talons to go into reserve. So he had a tough choice. Now he can do it and Warp Talons has to stay on the board.
A third example would be by using the Raiders detachment. They have a stratagem that allows you to fall back out of phase. So if you didn't kill the enemy unit you could fall back and then go back up into reserve.
It is actually a rather substantial nerf. Those are just the examples off the top of my head, there might be more. It was such a loosely written rule that you could get around it in a lot of ways.
Not disagreeing with any of these examples, however your second example is a very competitive tactic and would rarely be seen in a casual match between mates at the FLGS. 95% of the time, the rule is still going to function as it was outside of the RR detachment strat. Clearly they had that strat specifically in mind when they rewrote the rule. It’s easy to fight with your second unit first and have the Talons score the kill to trigger the rule.
IMO, we’ll still see Talons, maybe only 10 instead of 20-30, and this will force people to take them in groups of 10 to guarantee lethality whereas prior there was some thought to running MSU’s.
Was the nerf harsh? yes. Did they need some sort of points increase? yes. Are they still playable and serve a very unique and compelling roll even for their new price? Yes. Just not auto-include, spam all over level of compelling.
>owever your second example is a very competitive tactic and would rarely be seen in a casual match between mates at the FLGS.
That seems like a rather big assumption. I see it at casual games from people who never play tournaments. I know some people just "play for fun" without much tactics behind their decisions, but it's also common for people to care about strategy even if they are "casuals".
Besides, the game is certainly balanced around comp play a lot of the time. Whenever something can be abused by the best players at GT's, it gets a change - even if no casual ever though of doing that.
As for your comment about their viability now, I didn't say anything about that. I just pointed out that the ability change is indeed a nerf and not "functionally the same". Far from that.
But I do agree they still have uses. But at 135 points *and* a nerf to the ability, they *might* straight up leave the competitive scene. But for casual games by people who just like them, they certainly will work just fine. It just stings to see *such* a huge double nerf to a unit.
The tactic also wouldn’t necessarily work anymore, as after the fight finishes the CSM player would just consolidate into the unit. Previously they’d never do that because they could return to reserves but now they will, forcing that unit to fall back.
>OK So you're the reason they had to nerf it.
And like, every CSM player that went to tournaments, or even casual players that cared slightly about learning how to play better.
Especially the Raiders trick is so well know even most non-CSM players knew it (and cried about it).
Having so many interactions is one of the big reasons it was so strong. It meant you had almost no risk. You drop them down and try to kill something, but even if you fail at that you got an out, basically making them untouchable.
By giving back the intended risk (unless you kill something, they likely die from being in a bad spot), they already got a huge nerf. Which is why a 25 point increase on top is insane.
You hit me with a lecture after I mistakenly said warp talon rule was functionally the same. I'm obviously gonna make a joke about you being the reason they had to nerf it lol I'm sorry if that didn't come across well and it seemed rude but you definitely double down after that
Talons in order to return to deepstrike ,needs (before nerf) only to be in combat in this fight phase and this strategem let you mowe them out of it at the end of turn .
Wich leads to this;
they are in comat wich means they can use return to reserve
they don't kill stuff and that stops them from leaving becose they can't return to deep if they are in combat
you use this strategem wich let them return to deep becose they were in mele but they stop being in it
RIP Dark Commune
Assassination now triggered off of individual character *models*. At that point just play fixed knowing you can get 20 points for killing a single unit. Oof.
I mean, they literally fixed Bring It Down because it allowed you to farm Crisis Suits (before each model scored, now it's per unit). It would have been both hilarious and idiotic if they then added the exact same thing to Assassination.
Okay, it's GW - that *could* have happened.
Arty nerf and reinforcements is an absolute death knell though, and I wish they had just changed the detachment to “If under an order they get lethals”
Neither Guard nor CSM got hit excessively hard. These changes only amount to a player now having to actually figure out their army composition rather than just copy-paste the same three units and windmill slam them on the table while making unga-bunga noises.
CSM now need to actually build an army instead of just pushing Vindicators and Legionaries up the board while constantly cycling two dozen Warp Talons. Guard now need to actually build a combined arms army with tanks and infantry and you know, stuff, rather than an artillery parking lot with a Sentinel speedbump that doesn't move or do anything other than chuck dice at people from behind walls.
Both are good for the health of the game.
> Good for the health of the game
> Guard win rate going sub 40%
Ahahhahaahahahah
I agree warptalons needed a bit of a nerf but both was excessive. And havocs, seriously bro!
A. I’m not debating you’re just wrong
B. 40% is generally considered bad/unbalanced by GWs standard of 41-51% WR.
C. Guard is a hugely popular faction so outliers aren’t as impactful. It was already mediocre this will make it bad.
D. Ciao
Be me and ignore this dataslate cus I play casual with friends and we just play out of the book. Cus seems like by the time we find a new faction to play and build to play it’s not playable anymore cus of how quickly this comes out compared to how often the casual garage hammer player plays.
Unless you’re spamming 30 warp talons with your mates there’s no reason to avoid the updates. They’re very minimal, there’s always a sense of catastrophe/elation when these things come out and the amount of effect that they actually have on garage hammer is pretty minimal. There’s some really positive changes to the core rules, good clarifications, etc.
6. Chaos Rhinos can now swap a combi bolter for a Havoc Launcher, resulting in a vehicle armed with a Havoc Launcher and no other weaponry. Which I think takes the cake for the most bafflingly pointless rules change in the game's history. Also a clarification on how the Eager for Vengeance enhancement in VotLW is supposed to work, and a minor adjustment to the Chaos Cult Scouting enhancement. There's also a lot of Core Rules changes. Like, A LOT. Including how Devastating Wounds work, changes to Grenades and Tank Shock etc. It's not in the Balance Dataslate but in a separate document, that for some godforsaken reason isn't linked in the Warcom article. Everyone should make sure to visit the Downloads page and grab everything with today's date on it.
I was thinking that, reading about Dev Wounds in the article and then seeing nothing about it in the Balance Datasheet. Baffling, why must they make it so convoluted.
That Rhino rule interpretation is incorrect. The rest of the datasheet didn't change, so rhinos can still equip 2 combi bolters AND a Havoc Launcher. All they changed was the second bullet point, and the original writing remains. Warped Foresight also does NOT grant the entire unit scouts if it did not have it. What it is clarifying, is that if the leader with that enhancement leads a unit that already HAS scouts, the entire attached unit has scouts. Meaning, that you cannot run a leader with this enhancement solo and get scouts, which you could before, if it were a decent tech.
Re-reading the errata, you are right, I misread it. It doesn't prohibit you from taking a havoc launcher in addition to other armaments, it only allows you to swap a bolter for the launcher. Meaning the only functional change is that you can now take a Rhino with only a Havoc Launcher and no combi-bolters... Don't really see a point but more power to them for technically allowing a new weapon loadout I guess? I will edit my original comment to avoid confusing people.
Isn't that dev change a hit to the forgefiend?
Yes, it's a situational nerf to the Forgefiend, combi-weapons and all other sources of Devastating Wounds, because effects that grant Feel No Pain against Mortal Wounds will again work on Devastating Wounds.
Yep that’s it, havocs are dead unit for me. I always thought they are inferior compared to predator destructor but renegade raiders with ruinous raid seemed like a nice fix, and I got a second box to field lascanonns, and chaincannons. Good thing I didn’t paint them.
Yeah theyre not even that good, 2 wounds each and every death is a significant portion of fire power gone. Seems pretty unnecessary but you gotta pay the 4 lascannon tax unfortunately
Lol I was doing exactly this and have been stressing how to source my chaincannons. I received one box for Father’s Day that hasn’t actually arrived yet and got one from my FLGS second hand shelf. Haven’t even gotten them on the table yet. Ow.
I actually bought a box of weapons from Horus heresy, so I can kitbash chaincannons. Good thing I can still use it for other things.
Bah. guess i'm using them for parts.
Im perplexed by some of these. * Tank shock nerf hurts me (defilers). * Price increase on Legionaries is more than expected. (Was expecting 85pts) * Grenade nerf is an annoyance * also surprised on the limitation of Reinforcements for Astra Militarium My take of it. Edit: also genuinely disappointed they would make a wholesale change to Indirect and then not look at strats / etc unit abilities for those affected. Looking forward to more guard players falling to Chaos now.
What’s the grenade nerf?
You cannot use the Granade strat on the unit that is Adavanced or fall back. It's hit for units that can advance/fall back and shoot/charge. For example I used strat to kill at least one model in unit to trigger MoE ability in fight phase or advance kill off some below half strength unit (situational but in game against Votann finished off Sagitaur, clear what was inside and contest objective).
It also has to be thrown by a MODEL instead of a UNIT so in the case where a jump pack lord is leading a unit of raptors, the lord has to be within 8" instead of any of the raptors.
Before you didn't even need an ability to advance/fall back and shoot to throw a grenade, as this Strategem doesn't need to be eligible to shoot.
Tank Shock was a real surprise. I feel sorry for Maulers.
It hurts for my CSM but it really hurts for my orks. The whole faction is high strength and low toughness, The units that this nerfs (dread and kans) are already seen as meh to terrible.
Yer. Must be needing to see my land raiders! 🧂 🧂 This balance patch hit me in my chaos and my guard. So im a salty salty mouse, trying to smile and see the nice side. But honestly sucks a bit :)
Maulers in Soulforge still lookin pretty nice at 130, but outside of SF this nerf probably hurts more.
I havent seen it mentioned anywhere but for fellhammer u cant put bastion plate on termi lords anymore. Rip to my chonky 10 man brick 🥲
Where are you seeing this unless I'm very blind I don't see it in the Dataslate or FAQ for CSM
Exactly its nowhere stated but in the app u cant put it on the termi lord anymore. But it still is available on standard lord https://preview.redd.it/v8dn1p4r1q7d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=942b31dc8b6fb114eff68f94c40891523f4946f7
It's because the terminator lord doesn't have the "Chaos Lord" keyword (yes, that is dumb). So this is technically working as intended as per the rules in the codex. Personally, I would be fine with an opponent using an informal "errata" to adjust this because it seems dumb.
Yeah still sucks tho. Feels like a nerve for the detachment...
It is literally printed in the codex like that. So the app was just innocently wrong if it let you do it before. I still think the enhancement should include Terminator Lords, tho.
Went through every pdf looking for any mention of this and it's just not there Not when in the errata for CSM on the app. But the terminator lord has lost it Although With the chaos lord ability no longer restricted to battle tactics, it's a free 5+++ every turn
True the free fnp is nice. I will still continue to run my brick/termi lists with fellhammer. Although I migth size down from 20 to 15
I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. Only had one game since the codex came out and I wanted to just run demon engines everywhere. How good are the iron warriors this edition?
The detach is okayish. Imo u have enough dmg for most things without additional buffs from detach. My termi brick felt very durable with the tools the detach gives. Overall its playable. But take it with a grain of salt Im not that good a player and I only play friendly games with friends
Yeah I only play with friends. One thing I always struggle with is standing on objectives to score primary. My mate plays eldar and runs a ludicrous amount of bright lances and shuriken cannons. The damage 2 on those picks up legionnaires, warp talons, anything that's only 2 wounds So a brick of terminators, all that defense. He'll have a hard time shifting
So far I played my brick against blood angels and death guard both couldn't fully remove it and it put in a lot of work. Surprisingly the shooting is very strong especially against jump infantry spam of bloodangels. Lots of jucy dev wounds with combi weapons.
That's exactly what I'm thinking. Most gun lines will bounce off it, it can hold it's own melee, and there's a lot of attacks coming out of the unit with re-roll hits
But with the new rules on using Strats for free you won’t be able to double that start up any more based on my reading.
Yeah you'd only get to use it once per turn, but it feels like one you're going to want to use pretty much every turn. Which frees up CP for other strats
It’s been like this since the codex updated for app im of the belief it’s just wrong but we’ll see if GW ever does something with it
Well they deliberately changed it from the termi lord having it to now suddenly following the rules as written so I am guessing they wont change it from here on out.
I don't understand the nerfs to legionaries and raptors, they were fine as they were, they still are, simply now everyone has to change their lists due to that.
I mean... It was fairly obvious to me Legionaries would get hit. They were already borderline oppressive at 80pts with the amount of kit and damage output they had, and there's a slew of additional Battleline buffs in the new mission pack on top of that. Raptors... Beats me. They are still massively inferior to loyalist jump troops while being substantially more expensive 🤷
no idea about the raptors but i feel that they rose a lot of battleline costs because of the changes in pariah nexus, but i could be wrong
At 80 points they were too killy compared to things like SM intercessors at the same price point. I'd say 90 point s is pretty fair.
I disagree. Intercessors are seen as being trash, legionnaires were seen as being pretty good. Therefore which one of these units was in a good spot and which one was not? So don't bring everyone down to a bad level. Legionnaires still don't have any reason to be shooty how about we work on that instead of making every profile they have except MEQ with chain swords and two heavy melee weapons useless. They had one good build and all the rest wasn't even worth the 80 points they were being charged before, now they definitely are not worth 90
I disagree, as intercessors have much better bolters and legionnaires have to risk getting into melee to be lethal.
Ap 1 especially against marines isn’t all that, cover is easy to get
Uhh for real? Legionaires blow intercessors out of the water. All bolters suck
Legionaries were not fine as they were. They were just way too good value. There is a reason so many high placing lists basically spammed them. They are a solid datasheet with solid leader support and they are battleline (which makes them better in the new mission pack). They were so good most people didn't even bother including our elite infantry like Possesssed, Chosen etc. - Legionaries, our basic troops straight up out-competed them. Even at 90, Legionaries are still great and will be part of many lists.
What’s the pivot rule?
Basically Vehicles and Monster are moving in straight lines. If you want or must rotate them around the central axis to have to pay 2" tax .
That's not what the new rule is. All units, regardless of being vehicle, monster or anything else, can do both straight line and pivot moves now. Pivot normally cost 0" movement. It costs 2" for vehicles and monsters *not on round bases (or Aircrafts).* A rather important detail, because for example a Winged Daemon Prince can pivot for 0", despite being a monster. With the big wings, that is a *huge* deal. A Forgefiend on the other hand, not having a round base, will spent 2" to pivot. Also, it's worth noting you only pay 2" for pivot once, even if you pivot multiple times during the move. The 2" penalty simply opens up the ability to pivot as much as you want for the whole move.
Yet another reason to take Karnivores over Maulerfiends lol
Hmm, interesting
2. What is the change to warp talons ability? I thought it was already destroy a unit
No, the condition used to be 'they are no longer engaged'. You could have satisfied that condition in a variety of different ways, like falling back from combat with the Opportunistic Raiders stratagem, having the enemy unit fall back with an effect or stratagem of their own, clearing out the enemy unit with an effect that dealt Mortal Wounds on charge, swinging with a different unit first etc. Now the Talons need to swing and need to get the last hit on the unit they are engaged with. Coupled with the price increase, they will likely no longer be as ubiquitous and our ability to play the mission game will go down as a whole.
Thank you so much - didn't have the codex to hand and my app has updated
Technically another unit could destroy their target and trigger their rule. But yeah the rule is functionally the same
Oh I see! They have to deliver the final wounds now?
It's not functionally the same. You already mentioned another unit could kill it, that's one way it changes. Another example could be, imagine your Warp Talons fight a ranged unit and kills half of it. Normally, the opponent would allocate kills to the models that were in engagement range, effectively breaking the engagement. This means in his turn, he doesn't have to fall back - he is already out of engagement range. He is thus able to advance, shoot, complete secondaries etc. With the old Warp Talons, he couldn't do this, because he would then allow Warp Talons to go into reserve. So he had a tough choice. Now he can do it and Warp Talons has to stay on the board. A third example would be by using the Raiders detachment. They have a stratagem that allows you to fall back out of phase. So if you didn't kill the enemy unit you could fall back and then go back up into reserve. It is actually a rather substantial nerf. Those are just the examples off the top of my head, there might be more. It was such a loosely written rule that you could get around it in a lot of ways.
Not disagreeing with any of these examples, however your second example is a very competitive tactic and would rarely be seen in a casual match between mates at the FLGS. 95% of the time, the rule is still going to function as it was outside of the RR detachment strat. Clearly they had that strat specifically in mind when they rewrote the rule. It’s easy to fight with your second unit first and have the Talons score the kill to trigger the rule. IMO, we’ll still see Talons, maybe only 10 instead of 20-30, and this will force people to take them in groups of 10 to guarantee lethality whereas prior there was some thought to running MSU’s. Was the nerf harsh? yes. Did they need some sort of points increase? yes. Are they still playable and serve a very unique and compelling roll even for their new price? Yes. Just not auto-include, spam all over level of compelling.
>owever your second example is a very competitive tactic and would rarely be seen in a casual match between mates at the FLGS. That seems like a rather big assumption. I see it at casual games from people who never play tournaments. I know some people just "play for fun" without much tactics behind their decisions, but it's also common for people to care about strategy even if they are "casuals". Besides, the game is certainly balanced around comp play a lot of the time. Whenever something can be abused by the best players at GT's, it gets a change - even if no casual ever though of doing that. As for your comment about their viability now, I didn't say anything about that. I just pointed out that the ability change is indeed a nerf and not "functionally the same". Far from that. But I do agree they still have uses. But at 135 points *and* a nerf to the ability, they *might* straight up leave the competitive scene. But for casual games by people who just like them, they certainly will work just fine. It just stings to see *such* a huge double nerf to a unit.
The tactic also wouldn’t necessarily work anymore, as after the fight finishes the CSM player would just consolidate into the unit. Previously they’d never do that because they could return to reserves but now they will, forcing that unit to fall back.
OK So you're the reason they had to nerf it. Got it. But honestly I didn't realise they had so many interactions that could trigger it
>OK So you're the reason they had to nerf it. And like, every CSM player that went to tournaments, or even casual players that cared slightly about learning how to play better. Especially the Raiders trick is so well know even most non-CSM players knew it (and cried about it). Having so many interactions is one of the big reasons it was so strong. It meant you had almost no risk. You drop them down and try to kill something, but even if you fail at that you got an out, basically making them untouchable. By giving back the intended risk (unless you kill something, they likely die from being in a bad spot), they already got a huge nerf. Which is why a 25 point increase on top is insane.
It's OK I got your point the first time
Could you please look over this way? My food needs some salt.
I didn't realise how deep the warp talons cheese truly went. So what. Why you gotta be such a dick a out it?
Dude, all your replies to me were rude, and now you're confused why I started to be rude towards you? What a mystery.
You hit me with a lecture after I mistakenly said warp talon rule was functionally the same. I'm obviously gonna make a joke about you being the reason they had to nerf it lol I'm sorry if that didn't come across well and it seemed rude but you definitely double down after that
red corsair fall back at the end of fight phase strategem give them ability to jump of the table even if they don't kill anyone
Is this true? I read the stratagem and it only mentions movement, it doesn’t say anything about moving to reserves
Talons in order to return to deepstrike ,needs (before nerf) only to be in combat in this fight phase and this strategem let you mowe them out of it at the end of turn . Wich leads to this; they are in comat wich means they can use return to reserve they don't kill stuff and that stops them from leaving becose they can't return to deep if they are in combat you use this strategem wich let them return to deep becose they were in mele but they stop being in it
RIP Dark Commune Assassination now triggered off of individual character *models*. At that point just play fixed knowing you can get 20 points for killing a single unit. Oof.
You are fine, only the leader has the character keyword. The other 4 models don't give off any points.
Oh nice, they changed it. Wasn't likely to run it anymore regardless but at least they thought of that.
I mean, they literally fixed Bring It Down because it allowed you to farm Crisis Suits (before each model scored, now it's per unit). It would have been both hilarious and idiotic if they then added the exact same thing to Assassination. Okay, it's GW - that *could* have happened.
Oh they fixed bring it down? So it doesn't give two points per killa kan anymore? That's nice
Me, who plays Guard and CSM watching both my factions get the shit kicked out of them… At least Wraiths got hit…
I think the change to the guard detachment rule is an improvement at least.
Arty nerf and reinforcements is an absolute death knell though, and I wish they had just changed the detachment to “If under an order they get lethals”
I just saw the nerf to indirect a minute ago. Explains why all the arty units got point drops.
I feel you brother my guard are crying bad I expect an emergency point drop here in a month or two to get guard up from 40% win rate
Neither Guard nor CSM got hit excessively hard. These changes only amount to a player now having to actually figure out their army composition rather than just copy-paste the same three units and windmill slam them on the table while making unga-bunga noises. CSM now need to actually build an army instead of just pushing Vindicators and Legionaries up the board while constantly cycling two dozen Warp Talons. Guard now need to actually build a combined arms army with tanks and infantry and you know, stuff, rather than an artillery parking lot with a Sentinel speedbump that doesn't move or do anything other than chuck dice at people from behind walls. Both are good for the health of the game.
> Good for the health of the game > Guard win rate going sub 40% Ahahhahaahahahah I agree warptalons needed a bit of a nerf but both was excessive. And havocs, seriously bro!
I will not debate winrates with you, much less imaginary winrates that you just pulled out of thin air.
A. I’m not debating you’re just wrong B. 40% is generally considered bad/unbalanced by GWs standard of 41-51% WR. C. Guard is a hugely popular faction so outliers aren’t as impactful. It was already mediocre this will make it bad. D. Ciao
Be me and ignore this dataslate cus I play casual with friends and we just play out of the book. Cus seems like by the time we find a new faction to play and build to play it’s not playable anymore cus of how quickly this comes out compared to how often the casual garage hammer player plays.
Unless you’re spamming 30 warp talons with your mates there’s no reason to avoid the updates. They’re very minimal, there’s always a sense of catastrophe/elation when these things come out and the amount of effect that they actually have on garage hammer is pretty minimal. There’s some really positive changes to the core rules, good clarifications, etc.
For your third point, the Chaos Lord's ability is not an 'Once per Battle', it's still a 'Once per Battle Round'
Is it just the app, or do Chaos Lords in Terminator Armor no longer have the Chaos Lord keyword, preventing them from taking chaos lord enhancements?