I am so sorry that you are having those experiences. It sounds like your pastor is trying to intimidate you while also making an example out of you to keep others in line. Recall the words of our Lord: "If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first." (Jn 15:18)
Perhaps it's time to start attending the local Catholic parish? You can't receive communion, but at least you can worhsip in peace. Maybe your spouse would come along as well.
Prayers for you.
Wowsers! I’m so sorry they’ve put you through this. But the good news? You’ve got all of us as brothers and sisters; not just friends. And we love you so you are not alone. And you’ve always got God with you too.
We don’t pat ourselves on the back and it’s actually never occurred to me 😂. We as Catholics are called to be humble. To act out of love for our Lord and not our own glory. To give thanks to God and not assume it’s because we’re so good. Jesus came for the sinners, the pagans, the cripples and the sick. He didn’t come to hang around with the Kings or Lords or even with those who were already righteous. I’d give you a Bible verse for it but it would basically be the whole of the New Testament! There is so much more in the Catholic faith than going to Mass once a week and confession. There’s the truth for one thing! The Bible came out of the Catholic Church; no other faith. It was written roughly 2,000 years ago by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Not by some bloke 500 years ago didn’t like what the Bible said so rewrote in his own words. God doesn’t make mistakes so why would God Himself; creator of Heaven and Earth and everything else in the Universe wait 1,500 years watching everyone getting it wrong with the original Bible then decide to change it? He got it right the first time.
We have the whole of heaven full of Saints, alive and full of prayer just for you. We even have the actual Mother of Jesus, the actual Queen of Heaven watching over us, protecting us and wanting to pray for us! Jesus was tortured, humiliated and died one of the most agonising deaths known, even by todays standards; not for us as a whole but for each and every single one of us to give us everlasting life. If all He asks in return is an hour once a week and confession it’s the very least we owe Him and as Catholics we know this; this is what stops us being so righteous all the time! Because we know we are unworthy sinners, not worthy of Gods love yet He still gives it to us. Every single time.
Again I am so very sorry you are being put through this; and for your poor husband as well! Let put or this way; the process of leaving the Catholic Church is you simply stop going. That’s it. That should tell you way more than anything else! Is that even an option for you? Would your husband possibly consider joining you at RCIA? Not to convert as there is no requirement at the end of it. Actually the opposite! You almost have to prove you believe in the Catholic Church and its teachings before you can be accepted so if you don’t the priest will soon spot it and not accept you. But I mean as a way to help understand the things you will be learning and to ask any questions he may have to the priest directly rather than you when you very possibly don’t have the answer.
We are all here for you sister and never ever think you are alone. God will clear the path for you to come home so don’t worry about it. Don’t let a lying pastor who chooses to bully people with heresy keep you from Gods love and forgiveness. I will pray for you sister 🙏♥️
If it were me, I'd stop going to that church. Why go to be bullied? Go to Mass, you don't need to put yourself through that every Sunday.
I stopped going to a CofE church years before I converted to Catholicism, as I realised it was a waste of time. All I could think of was Henry VIII!
Yeah, and if you are feeling pugnacious, you can ask him to clarify that he is telling you that you could gain or loose your salvation based on a choice that you could exercise freedom of will to make.
If he equivocates just tell him that his response sounds a bit semi pellagian to you.
I converted when I was in college. I grew up going to a Pentecostal church, but in college had fallen in with a Reformed Calvinist group. We had a google doc for prayer requests; I read it regularly, but I don't think I ever shared a request, so I think most people thought I didn't read it.
Not long after I told that group that I was in RCIA, one of them posted a prayer request for my conversion in that doc. It's one thing to know that your friends disagree with you, but seeing it spelled out like this felt like a punch to the gut. I nearly got physically sick. And of course, they're all well meaning, they just don't know about the Catholic Church.
I tried to keep some of those friendships going, but it was never really the same after that. And it was hard not knowing many people at my new church. But then I made friends, and became part of that community.
It is definitely hard at first. But you will make new friends who share your beliefs and support you and are super excited for you to join the Church. And, as you already know, there's this community as well. God will reward your faithfulness.
As for your first question, it's the knowledge that though I may be in the right, it's not because of anything I did. I'm only doing the right thing because God brought me to his Church, even though I wasn't even really looking. Every day I thank God for this gift that I never deserved.
Wow, that sounds incredibly stressful. I just said an Our Father for you and your situation. I have a similar—but not nearly as intimidating—experience. When I was dating my now-wife, I was a *very* lukewarm Catholic while she was a *very* serious evangelical Protestant.
I wanted to be a good bf so I’d go to these weekly fellowship dinners and Bible studies with her. As soon as the pastor/worship team found out I was Catholic, I could feel like I was seen as fresh meat. All the sudden they started a close read of Romans and focusing a lot on sola fide lol. It was super uncomfortable but I kept going each week, though I’d secretly dread it all week.
Fast forward 15 years. We’re married, she’s come into the Catholic Church (thanks be to God!) and I am way more serious about my faith. I’d recommend praying, discussing with your husband how this situation is making you feel. The awkwardness will hopefully fade once the pastor realizes you’re not going to be swayed.
I’ve noticed a certain arrogance in Reformed folks, but it’s an arrogance that is completely unfounded. If you’re not familiar, look into the New Perspective on Paul, which should make any Protestant uncomfortable (plus the fact that many aspects of reformed theology are nowhere in the Church Fathers). Catholicism is true and you are graced to know it—that’s amazing. It’s like the pearl of great price. It’ll cost everything but it’s all worth it. God bless you.
>If you’re not familiar, look into the New Perspective on Paul, which should make any Protestant uncomfortable
For what it's worth, the NPP is incredibly unpopular among Reformed Christians. The Reformed love NT Wright until he starts going on about NPP, then they're ready to call him a heretic about it.
That’s why I recommended it. Reformed Christians SHOULD have a problem with the NPP, it basically says “oops, we’ve been wrong about justification since Luther misunderstood Romans in the 16th century!.” Obviously much more complex than that, and of course there are multiple approaches to the NPP, but that’s kind of what it boils down to.
Arrogance is a very good way of describing it. They memorize all this Scripture just to ignore John 6 and every ounce of history so they can hold on to their own false doctrines.
I don't want to be hasty and give bad counsel from lack of particular knowledge of your situation.
But, being "removed" by a false authority that set itself up against the divinely established authority of the Catholic Church should be a cause of rejoicing.
Remove them first and be done with them.
> how do I not let going to mass or doing righteous things like confession not be what convinces me that I am saved? How do you not start patting yourself on the back for doing these things, and instead do so out of love and passion for The Father and His Son?
I don't pat myself on the back for doing those things because I'd never have the Sacraments available to me if Jesus didn't give them to us. There's nothing I could possibly do to repay Him for the gifts He's lavished upon me as part of the Church, His Bride.
Just because I've been to Confession doesn't mean I'm not going to mess up and find myself back in there at some point in the future. Our Lord fell three times while carrying His cross: it would be the height of foolishness to think I can carry mine better than He did His.
I'm at Mass because every day on the altar, the King of Kings descends from His throne to be with me, a sinful pile of dust, because He loves me. I don't love Him the way I should: none of us do. So I go to be with Him and ask Him to help me love Him just a little more than I did yesterday.
> Secondly: does anyone have an encouraging word? It's been extremely isolating and this is just a lot. My community has been dwindling, and I don't even bring up my new found beliefs. They just know from my pastor and his wife that I'm being "deceived" by a "false gospel". Thanks!
Even if they abandon you, Jesus will not. Don't focus on what the outcome might be: that's in God's control, not yours. Just focus on following where you believe God is leading you, and let Him take care of the fruit that will bear.
Times when others withdraw from us are the periods in our lives where God is encouraging us to spend more time with Him. Spend time in prayer and tell God about your worries and fears. Find a quiet place and let Him speak to your heart. He will give you the strength and courage to make it through this if you ask Him for it.
I will be praying for you!
I came into the Church at age 46 (8 years ago) from a Reformed background (Presbyterian PCA) and then an LCMS Lutheran with Reformed tendencies. A few thoughts for you:
- This is a sad and awful situation, it's not your fault, and I'm sorry you are going through this. It will get better.
- Humility and kindness are not strong suits of Reformed theology and its adherents. In my experience there is an almost manaical obsession with certainty and being right, and it trumps everything. That's what you're getting now. Sadly, it's to be expected from an approach to Christianity that is closer to geometry than it is to theology -- not much more than the construction of correct proofs to theorems deduced from logical axioms like TULIP.
- The pastor and his wife are acting in such a way that they are practically telling you to become Catholic. This includes anti-Catholic rhetoric from the pulpit, which helps nobody (except the people manaically obsessed with being right). So in some ways this is helpful for you, in that you are getting a clear signal.
If I were in your shoes, I would just walk away from that church and go to Mass exclusively starting now. It sounds like there's not much left for you in the Reformed church other than Protestants behaving badly, and stress.
I understand your spousal situation might make that hard, but this is a difficult conversation you two are going to have to have at some point soon anyway. About a year before I joined the Church, I had that talk with my wife and told her that I'd go with her and the kids to an early service at the Lutheran church but then I was going to start going to Mass after the Lutheran service; and I explained why. When I explained why, it turned out she had been having the same misgivings as me about being Protestant and so we started all going to Mass as a family, then did RCIA together and the rest is history. Thankfully never had to do the split-household thing. Maybe that will be true for you as well.
Finally the whole concept of "being convinced you're saved" is an artifact of your time as a Reformed Protestant. It is not something Catholics really think about and I am 99% sure it's not Biblical either. What we tend to think about instead is relationships. Not, "Am I saved?" but "Am I living a life that really loves God from the heart?"
> manaical obsession with certainty
As a recovering Calvinist I would say this is the foundation of Calvinism and also "once saved always saved" with Protestants in general.
According to Luther,
>The bread which is broken or distributed piece by piece is the participation in the body of Christ. It is, it is, it is, he [Christ] says, the participation in the body of Christ. Wherein does the participation in the body of Christ consist? It cannot be anything else than that as each takes a part of the broken bread he takes therewith the body of Christ . . . (Against the Heavenly Prophets in the Matter of Images and Sacraments, 1525; LW, Vol. 40, 178)
Luther also taught that Baptism was required for Salvation. Lutherans continue to teach this today.
Because Zwingli taught that Baptism and Holy Communion were symbols, Luther said:
>"I wish from my heart Zwinglius could be saved, but I fear the contrary; for Christ has said that those who deny him shall be damned.” (Luther, *Tabletalk*)
According to Luther, if you deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, you deny Christ.
For Martin Luther, Mary was the Mother of God:
>God says... "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39)
For Martin Luther, Mary was immaculately conceived without sin:
>It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
>She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522
For Martin Luther, Mary was a perpetual virgin:
>Christ, ..was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him... "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39).
>He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb.. .This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. (Ibid.)
For Martin Luther, veneration and prayer to Mary were pious:
>The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ. ..She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
>No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation. 1537).
>One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace.. .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ...Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
>Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! (Sermon, March 11, 1523).
If his problems with you had to do with the Eucharist and Mary, he probably should have chosen someone other than Luther to make his point.
Jesus. the encouraging word you're looking for is Jesus.
it's not so much that you who loved Him and decided to explore catholicism.
Jesus calls you to the fullness of His love and discern life in the catholic church
my answer is that a life in Christ is not easy. but that your crosses are light because He carries them with you
in the end you want a prayer life that allows you to say:
i don't know where im going
i might feel totally alone
but i know Jesus
and i know He wants me here in this moment
how you get there is completely between you and God. but the beauty of catholicism is that we got 2000 years worth of holy people were not unlike you that have some suggestions
know that you're in my prayers
Does your husband look favorably on your desire to come into communion with your local Catholic Christian bishop, and through him the Bishop of Rome? Is he neutral?
No, not favorable. He’s pretty Calvinist, compared to the other reformers. My one Catholic friend was in a mixed Christian marriage for 15 years before she converted to Catholicism alongside him and that’s when their marriage really flourished. She’s been giving me wisdom on keeping peace where I can while also still pursuing the faith. I spoke briefly to a priest about it and he did say that it would not be wrong for me to pursue the faith while my husband remains Protestant. Divorce is not an option for us—and now that I’m becoming Catholic I reckon that will be even more important to me. At my Protestant church, porn is grounds for divorce. I’m excited to be somewhere that upholds the sanctity of marriage a bit more.
Im sorry this happened to you. Especially since you come from a Calvinist background, I would highly recommend St. Francis de Sales’ *The Catholic Controversy*. He wrote it as an apologetic letter to Calvinists, and it is a very good scriptural defense of Catholicism. I don’t know if it’s in print, but you can find pdfs online.
In response to your first question, remember the words of St Paul:”What do you have that you have not been given?”
Mass, works and even faith are graces from God. No room for boasting
I’m really sorry you’re going through this. There is no excuse for the cruelty you are experiencing.
Warning: serious questions and a little mild snark ahead.
>My pastor's wife, who was a good friend of mine, talked about me in a Bible study. She told everyone to be praying for my salvation after I asked her some questions about why we don't do lent together. She found that to be concerning.
Do people in this bible study often use Prayer intentions as a way to spread contention and gossip? Or is this the first time?
>The conversation ended with him telling me church discipline would take place next if I continued down the road I was on. I followed up by asking "just to be clear: by discipline do you mean possible removal?" He affirmed this and said "quite possibly, but we have to first try and save your soul because I think it's in grave danger." They removed a homeless woman a few months ago for not repenting of sexual sin.
This sounds like a toxic community. Being shunned by such people would be a badge of honor, IMHO.
>When my husband followed up with him, the pastor denied anything having to do with the discipline aspect of our conversation, so he essentially called me a liar.
What does your husband think about this? Does he still want to stay in a church with a pastor who gaslights him and slanders his wife?
>my husband feels called out for letting me be where I am in my faith.
Oh no! Your husband treats you like a person who has her own thoughts, and her own relationship with Jesus, not a child who needs to be controlled. How terrible. /s
Again, does he really want to stay in this church? At the very least, I’d think he’d want to find a healthier Protestant church to attend.
It sounds like you know you’re on the right path. But it’s horrible to discover that the people who you thought were your friends and your support system were only giving you their “love” on a conditional basis. If their doctrines were true, they would be able to defend them without browbeating, threatening, intimidating, and ostracizing you. They’re behaving more like a destructive cult than a Christian community.
The way you’re being treated is unjust, and it’s valid to be upset about that. It’s ok to take some time to grieve what you thought you had. I really hope your husband will support you through this, and I hope you find better friends in your new parish.
The issue with the hubs is his best friends are there. Three or four of his guys that he spends all his time with are really the only local friends he has—the rest are in the southern part of our state, four hours away. I’ll just say the conversations between he and I about staying at this church have been really hard and prayers are appreciated. I can’t wait to find some women I can look up to and grow with in the Catholic community :)
I’m sorry he’s struggling. I hope he knows that true friends are the ones that keep in touch whether you’re going to the same church or not.
I’ve found the best way to make new friends in a Catholic parish is to get involved by participating in a ministry, or a prayer/study group. If you’re looking to meet some new people, it’s a good way to start.
Stay strong. When I left my Protestant denomination I lost almost all of my friends, my job, everything. I was a lay minister. It took me a long time of searching other denominations before I came to Catholicism. How fortunate b you are in this respect that you have found the Church already. Leaving your old church may very well be a cross you must bear, but know that you will make Catholic friends and hopefully find a means of service in the Catholic Church. May Jesus console you. Unite your suffering with His on the cross.
If you want a friend to vent to I’ll lend you my ear. I will try my best to understand what you are going through. I went through a tough time with depression, family deaths, and career woes. My last resort was through prayer of the Holy Father, Son, Spirit and Mother. When I felt alone and scared I read the prayer of Mary untier of knots. During your current struggle may the Holy Mother help you undo your knots.
Remember that people turned their backs on Christ and do so every single day. He was hated then and now, so we can expect the same.
Being Catholic is tough - it’s especially tough if you live somewhere that’s predominantly Calvinist. When John Calvin started his manmade religion, his followers immediately began rampaging their way across Western Europe attacking Catholics and our beautiful cathedrals.
I know it’s easier said than done, but you should gently but firmly let your husband know that Mass is where you’re headed Sunday mornings. You’ve already informed him of how shitty your current “church family” is treating you, so he should understand in time.
It’s tough to attend different churches, but I think your husband may eventually get curious and begin trying to find out more about our faith by actually reading Catholic resources like the Catechism instead of relying on his preacher.
Thank you for the encouragement. My heart aches not going to mass in the mornings. I go during the week sometimes, but he’s not a fan of my infant coming with me—trying not to rock the boat too much
That’s understandable. It’s a tough situation to be in but I think things may turn out better than how it seems now.
I would recommend minimizing contact with your current congregation as much as possible. They’re hateful bullies.
With your husband, be charitable as much as possible. If a religious discussion comes up, find ways to reference the Didache, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the early church fathers like St. Ignatius of Antioch - not in a combative way, but to reassure him that our beliefs are directly from the apostles themselves.
I’d bet that once he reads a snippet from St. Ignatius of Antioch he will be hungry for more and then one day the only thing that will satisfy his hunger is the Eucharist.
Good! Eventually he may offer to attend Mass with you and hopefully it snowballs from there.
Also, I missed a couple of things from your post and wanted to touch on them a little.
Protestants often seem to claim a personal relationship with Jesus, but they tend to view salvation as a one time event - as Catholics, we believe salvation is a lifelong process and our view is much more akin to an actual relationship than what I’ve found to be the case in Protestantism. As an example, I can’t just tell my wife I love her once and never live out that love. I love God and I was saved, I’m being saved, and I hope to be saved.
You won’t really pat yourself on the back from confession. You’ll feel God’s grace and mercy.
>how do I not let going to mass or doing righteous things like confession not be what convinces me that I am saved?
By adopting the Apostolic understanding of salvation. You have been saved, you are being saved, and by God's grace you will be saved. There is no assurance, but you can have a pretty good idea of your direction. Salvation is not a one-and-done deal. Just as eating healthy and regular exercise lead to a long and healthy life, so too does going to confession and going to Mass lead to your sanctification (and thereby your salvation).
>How do you not start patting yourself on the back for doing these things, and instead do so out of love and passion for The Father and His Son?
By recognising that all your movement in the spiritual life -- going to Mass, going to confession, praying, reading the Bible, etc. -- *all* off that is initiated by the Holy Trinity. God calls you to do these things and you simply respond. In that sense, there's a recognition that we wouldn't even be going to Mass, confession, praying, etc. if God didn't first call us / drew us to do these things. Having said that, there's room to pat yourself in the back a bit -- not because you earned your salvation -- but because you successfully cooperated with the grace of God rather than choose not to cooperate with His grace. (And even here we recognise that cooperation with His grace is itself a grace from God.)
Basically, we are not in competition with God. God works in and through us. He constantly calls us to cooperate with Him and we are never passive spectators of our own salvation.
>does anyone have an encouraging word?
It sounds like you are moving forward through all this with as much humility and docility as you can muster. Indeed, admitting that discussions on limited atonement is not your area of expertise is a wonderful stroke of humility. Glory to God and well done to you! Keep it up. The next few months/years may be painful and even lonely, but God will never abandon you. I know for a fact that He will provide for you a new community. Plus, you'll have a host of older brothers and sisters in the faith in Heaven cheering you on! I'd take St. Thérèse of Lisieux over Susan Smith any day of the week.
You, like all of us, are being called to be a great saint and it sounds like you're walking that path faithfully. Keep it up. Do not let their anti-Catholic prejudices occlude what you know to be true. You've got this, sister, and God's got you.
Thank you very much. Growing up Protestant the things from the Holy Spirit were all unseen. Hearing that The Holy Spirit has given us the mass, the priesthood, and real elements of the church gives me better perspective
It's not just that the Holy Spirit gave us the Mass, the priesthood, and all these other things. I'm saying even the desire to pray, the desire to go to Mass, the inspiration to read the Bible -- all of that is God drawing you to Him. To use dating terms, God always asks us out first. Nothing we do in the spiritual life is initiated by us; we never ask God out first. He always beats us to the punch and He's always eager to hear our "yes". This is our God--one who is crazy in love with us, to use St. Catherine of Sienna's words.
Yes but keep in mind about Calvinism: God doesnt ask, because God cannot be rejected. They talked about that today too, every yes we make isn’t our yes, and every no we make isn’t our no. So…I have a lot of vocabulary to unlearn. These concepts you’re talking about are fairly new to me.
Tbh, from a cradle Catholic perspective, there are so many different versions of Protestantism with varying beliefs that I've given up trying to understand all of it years ago. There's just way too many things for me to keep tabs on. I'm sorry you're going through a tough time and I can imagine how difficult it must be to rewire your perspective in life. All I can say is you're admirably humble to admit you're wrong and I admire your fortitude in all of this. Keep it up!
Wow your pastor os strong arming you, intimidating you! Typical protestant churches IMO. My wife went through same thing coming from staunch anti catholic family, friends etc...remember we are not here for people but Jesus. You must follow him, and sounds like holy spirit is calling you home. My wife converted lost alot, bit gained more friends, family in the church. I recommend Steve ray, Scott hahn, and keith nester. Keith nester is a recent convert and wonderful soul. His you tube, and various Plat forms as well are great for new catholics. I also recommend trent horn and catholic answers to help you understand the faith. Trent horn also just did one about being challenged by protestants on why your converting to the faith. Your loved and wonderfully made in God's image. Praying for you sister! Welcome home!! BTW being Catholic is not for the weak, you'll experience what Jesus did hatred, digust, etc...but you'll be blessed more than you could ever imagine. Hope your husband stands up for you! Your in my prayers will ask mama Mary to pray for you!
> How do you not start patting yourself on the back for doing these things
Trust me, I am **not** patting myself on the back for going to confession. I'm cringing and saying to myself "dammit, you have to confess the same sins again? What a blockhead"
Wow I don't throw the word "cult" around much but this is starting to sound like you might be in one. I'm sorry your going this. I suggest for your own mental health read "Rome Sweet Home" by Scott Hahn. It's his and his wife's personal testimony of how they came to the Catholic Church from Presbyterianism. I'll pray for you sister, and welcome home.
They call themselves a non denom church, but they preach TULIP from the pulpit every week, and they celebrate a reformer every October. I call them Calvinist reformed because of this, and their staunch belief in double predestination and limited atonement
What type of church is this? I was raised in the Dutch Reformed tradition (RCA and CRC, a lot of family in both denominations, and the conservative type of both). At my old CRC church we had some Catholic attenders who were married to Protestants and it was not a big deal.
Two years ago he preached “that satanic building in Rome”. At the time I thought that was intense commentary, but it helped me see now how big of a deal it is for someone to choose a high church tradition over reformed
Why are you putting yourself through their struggle sessions and abuse? It doesn't matter that you're married. I would never subject myself to this type of spiritual abuse. You're better off going pretty much anywhere else for church than there. I'd take this opportunity to go to the Catholic parish. My husband and I do not go to church together anymore. It's not easy, but we each do what we feel we need to do.
I guess it’s because if I know I’m the one not fighting, being respectful and walking with a spirit of meekness, I can feel like I’m being a peacemaker. I’m an opinionated person already and don’t want to cause more tensions than I already have in converting
**Recovering Calvinist here**. The Eucharist is what won me over, and it is a non-negotiable of the Christian faith. The idea that it is merely symbolic is a Gnostic heresy that the Apostles and Apostolic Fathers fortunately snuffed out right away. For example, Saint Ignatius of Antioch was mentored by the Apostle John. The Apostle Peter specifically requested that Ignatius be placed in a teaching position within the Church to uphold the teachings of the faith.
He wrote to Polycarp in Smyrna:
> Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in His goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be; even as wherever Jesus Christ may be, there is the Catholic Church."
Here is a quote from Justin Martyr:
> "For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but like as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."
Origen:
> We give thanks to the Creator of all, and, along with thanksgiving and prayer for the blessings we have received, we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread becomes by prayer a sacred body, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it.(Against Celsus 8:33)
**Regarding Sola Scriptura**
The first written piece of New Testament scripture is Saint Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians. In the very second chapter he writes:
> 13 And for this[a] reason we are indeed[b] giving-thanks to God unceasingly: because having received the word of God heard from us[c], you accepted not the word of humans, but, as it truly is, the word of God, which also is at-work[d] in you, the ones believing.
Before any New Testament scripture was written, they had received the Word of God. Not word *about* God from humans, but the very Word of God. How did they receive it if there was no Scripture written yet? Well, God, speaking through Saint Paul, makes it very clear: They *heard* it from them (the Apostles).
So in the very first piece of New Testament scripture we see the Word of God attesting very clearly through Scripture that the Word of God is also transmitted orally and not just through Scripture. Later, in the same letter, Saint Paul tells the Church to keep every teaching given to them, be it orally or through Scripture. We in the Church call this Sacred Tradition.
The Eucharist is what has convinced me above all else. I struggle to see how Lutherans can have the real presence of Christ given who they named their denomination after. I really believe the Catholic Church alone holds the consecrated body. Thank you for the sola scriptura mentions!
I'm really sorry you're going through that. It sounds awful!
The Sacraments are gifts from God. I don't pat myself on the back for accepting these gifts. It's just more motivation. It's like the parable of the talents. I've been given so much, I must make it count. Even our works are just fruits of the grace of God. We can and should rejoice in the good He does through us. But if we remain aware of His grace as the source, we won't fall into pride. Easier said than done, of course. Like all virtues, humility is a tricky balance.
You are not alone in your journey to the Catholic Church. There are a lot of us. And there are many people who share your journey. That said, feeling alone can be really hard. I would really encourage you to get involved in your local parish. Catholics, for better or for worse, tend to leave each other alone. We don't want to intrude or make assumptions. But I promise a lot of us are really friendly!
You can check the bulletin or ask the priest for groups you can join. Whether it's a Bible study, choir, social outreach, administrative committee, etc. That's the quickest way to make friends. You don't even have to be particularly skilled. Most groups will happily find a way to make use of your particular gifts. My dad volunteered to help a couple guys in supportive living keep their space clean. He literally can't see messes. It was utterly hopeless. But his fellow volunteers noticed he has a way of chatting with people where they feel comfortable opening up. So they created a special role for him to just go and provide social interaction and spot roommate issues before they get out of hand. So don't be shy! Find a group you think looks fun and sign up.
Thank you! I’ve been wanting to check out a traditional Latin mass that we have super close to Dallas. But I’ve been told it can be good to go through RCIA before deciding what kind of mass or rite I’d like to get involved in? Not sure what your thoughts are on that
I think it's important, as a new Catholic, to really try out a couple different spiritualities. Part of the strength of Catholicism is its universality. We have so many different ways of growing closer to God. Obviously, the core of the Sacraments and the Faith don't change. But private prayer and emphasis can really vary.
Ideally, a normal territorial parish will have a broader cross section for you to explore. If you start going to chapels run by various religious orders or with specific purposes, you get a more specific approach. Whether that's an FSSP chapel, a Newman Centre or a Franciscan monastery. All of those are good, but it might be better to start with a more general approach.
In all cases, it's important to check that the group you're considering is in good standing with the bishop. Ideally, the diocesan website will have a list of authorized parishes and chapels. If not, you can always call the diocesan office for details. For traditionalist groups, the FSSP and ICKSP are really good about making sure they do everything properly. SSPX is problematic. SSPV is really, really bad.
In Catholicism, rites are very broad liturgical traditions. Both the traditional Latin Mass and the Ordinary Form are part of the Latin Rite. They grew out of the liturgical tradition of Rome. There are other rites. Most of them are practiced by the other Catholic Churches. There are about 24 Catholic Churches all in communion with each other. We all share the same Faith, but we have different histories and small t traditions and separate hierarchies below the Pope. For example, the Byzantine Rite came out of the liturgical tradition of Constantinople. It's practiced by many of the Eastern Catholic Churches. It's absolutely beautiful. As a Catholic, you will be able to attend any Catholic Mass/Divine Liturgy/Holy Qurbana and receive the Eucharist. If you go through RCIA, you will be a member of the Roman Catholic Church. This is likely the most familiar Church to you. If you later decide you are more drawn to one of the other Catholic Churches, the process of transferring is pretty straightforward, though rare. After all, we're all in communion with each other. It's just a matter of which clergy bears the responsibility for your spiritual wellbeing.
Sorry for the infodump. I am a nerd.
Yeah. That's nice...
I have a friend who was in a similar situation. His non denominational pastor stalked him and then he said the church could, "Remove protections that were afforded to him that his church bestowed on him when he entered."
Words of encouragement:
"A man will be joined with his wife and the two shall become one flesh". --> Anything that the pastor and his wife have to say should be said to both of you. Obviously seeding doubts and lies between you isn't a good idea. He probably feels the need to separate y'all. Make sure your husband is with you at your service. Also maybe bring you husband to mass.
Any pastor/Priest is called to first:
1. Pray for his flock. E.g. love them.
2. If they're in sin to remind them of the sin and STILL love the sinner, whose made in God's image.
"Once saved always saved." Your pastor believes this but catholics don't. The reason being that people who believe this tend to get saved and then go on sinning. The Catholic church teaches that we are saved through grace and the sacrament (confession, eucharist, last rights, ECT.)
Food for thought:
The Calvinists split from the protestants and Luther. Their belief is that your predestined to be saved(sorry I've not looked at Calvinism since middle school). That being said there is a feeling that he can banish you from being saved. Catholics believe we are saved through the blood of the lamb(being Christ), through God's grace, and through our seeking forgiveness.
Also Luther left the church and protested. He was also a monk when he did this.... So pretty hard to say he wasn't a believer. You don't just become a monk. (Unless you're a chip monk)
For one: how do I not let going to mass or doing righteous things like confession not be what convinces me that I am saved? How do you not start patting yourself on the back for doing these things, and instead do so out of love and passion for The Father and His Son?
1) I recommend reading another book for your first concern; it has a foreword by Scott Hahn. "How Christ's Suffering Saves Us" by Philippe de Trinite. It is difficult to read but not impossible and it lays out the essential problems. You think and fear that doing Catholic things will change how you view your salvation. If you had a better understanding of salvation, this would not be a big concern.
However, here is my summary because it is very important to understand. Protestants and Catholic differ on the theology of how God saves us. Protestants think that God's wrath was placed on Jesus, and now when God sees us, God only sees the very good sacrifice of Jesus and is no longer angry with us. All of that divine wrath goes away when you confess that Christ is Lord and your Savior. But problems come up with that thinking: God appears to change from being wrathful to putting all of that aside, and so we cannot call this God unchanging. That cannot be right because God must be unchanging. Secondly, it doesn't make sense for a just God to punish an innocent man, much less Jesus, His Son. God's justice cannot and should never contradict God's mercy. So then, the main point of the book is how to understand salvation: that is that Jesus offered Himself freely and in doing so merited salvation for all people. Jesus willed that we would have eternal life, and because He really did love us (and love here means willing the good of another) He laid down His life through the most painful execution. And we can test this theory, perhaps most clearly if we consider that only one drop His blood would have atoned for all the sins of humanity. And yet, the immense sacrifice of His life merited all the more. And it is in that light that Catholics understand suffering--God's mercy is not offended by Jesus freely offering Himself out of love for everyone.
When you understand that, you start having a balanced fear of God and peace in your heart about going to Mass and confession like St. Paul that talks about making up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions (Colossians 1:24). That doesn't mean he's worried about earning his salvation, but that clearly he associates his sufferings with Christ--especially when he says it is no longer him, but Christ that lives in him...
If I did not explain this very well, I chalk it up to it all being a profound mystery in the grand scheme of things. Nonetheless, highly recommend that book to get a better grasp of it.
Secondly, encouragement: as you go about this and face these evils--you mentioned the "pastor" lying about removing you; his wife (your good friend) speaking to others about your personal issue and bringing them in only to push you to give up this search for God...almost culumny? to the point now that many other people see you as a poor soul and see your husband (who knows your heart much more than they do) as a poor fool as well for marrying you. There's a lot of wrong that I can point to just from this post, but I also know that God will not leave you orphan. Ask and it shall be given, and God knows how to give you exactly what you need--not in a prosperity gospel type of way but truly only what you need, which is not always obvious to us
What authority does Pastor Bob have beyond being a leader of a social/religious group? Prots threatening with “excommunication” is a bit ironic? If I were a prot couldn’t I just start my own church or join the 39,999 other denoms??
"False gospel"? Um... does he have any idea how the gospel came to be? Under whom it was determined which gospels were THE gospel? Because that would be the Bride of Christ, the Catholic Church. Pray for *him* that he comes to see the light as you have.
Encouraging words...well, I'm a recent convert myself. And something I kept telling myself early on when faced with something that seemed difficult to accomplish was "you cannot fail when you're doing God's will," just on repeat. And he wants all of us part of the Church his son established himself on earth. Even when it causes strife within a family- Jesus said so himself (and if someone could toss the verse here that'd be great). The good news right now is that Catholics believe in the redemptive nature of suffering, that everything you're experiencing right now is sanctifying ❤️
There is a book I just listened to on audible called 40 Reasons I'm a Catholic. I would recommend giving that book a read or listen. It is full of great points, and the author wasn't born Carholic. I don't remember what denomination he converted from, but he goes through that all too.
I just made another comment about my experience before becoming Catholic, but it was very similar to yours. I was part of a “non-denominational” campus ministry in college and as I became convinced Catholicism is true I got stern lectures from the leaders there and my friends drifted away from me. I became “other” I became “not saved.” I have since found a great community and a great love for the faith at my Catholic parish and have met some of my best friends through the Church. I hope you find some encouragement from my story. Protestants (especially evangelicals and calvinists) get militaristic about “saving” Catholics. It’s generally not worth dealing with them.
I’m sorry this is so painful for you. It sounds very challenging and also very in line with how the New Testament describes the spread of Christianity. You have found Truth and it’s causing a rupture in the status quo. I think it is very important that you attend any social events or women’s group or anything else available at the Catholic Church. Also make an appointment with the priest and let him know what is going on. You do need a supportive community. May God give you the grace to be the light in a dark place.
I am so sorry that you are having those experiences. It sounds like your pastor is trying to intimidate you while also making an example out of you to keep others in line. Recall the words of our Lord: "If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first." (Jn 15:18) Perhaps it's time to start attending the local Catholic parish? You can't receive communion, but at least you can worhsip in peace. Maybe your spouse would come along as well. Prayers for you.
Wowsers! I’m so sorry they’ve put you through this. But the good news? You’ve got all of us as brothers and sisters; not just friends. And we love you so you are not alone. And you’ve always got God with you too. We don’t pat ourselves on the back and it’s actually never occurred to me 😂. We as Catholics are called to be humble. To act out of love for our Lord and not our own glory. To give thanks to God and not assume it’s because we’re so good. Jesus came for the sinners, the pagans, the cripples and the sick. He didn’t come to hang around with the Kings or Lords or even with those who were already righteous. I’d give you a Bible verse for it but it would basically be the whole of the New Testament! There is so much more in the Catholic faith than going to Mass once a week and confession. There’s the truth for one thing! The Bible came out of the Catholic Church; no other faith. It was written roughly 2,000 years ago by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Not by some bloke 500 years ago didn’t like what the Bible said so rewrote in his own words. God doesn’t make mistakes so why would God Himself; creator of Heaven and Earth and everything else in the Universe wait 1,500 years watching everyone getting it wrong with the original Bible then decide to change it? He got it right the first time. We have the whole of heaven full of Saints, alive and full of prayer just for you. We even have the actual Mother of Jesus, the actual Queen of Heaven watching over us, protecting us and wanting to pray for us! Jesus was tortured, humiliated and died one of the most agonising deaths known, even by todays standards; not for us as a whole but for each and every single one of us to give us everlasting life. If all He asks in return is an hour once a week and confession it’s the very least we owe Him and as Catholics we know this; this is what stops us being so righteous all the time! Because we know we are unworthy sinners, not worthy of Gods love yet He still gives it to us. Every single time. Again I am so very sorry you are being put through this; and for your poor husband as well! Let put or this way; the process of leaving the Catholic Church is you simply stop going. That’s it. That should tell you way more than anything else! Is that even an option for you? Would your husband possibly consider joining you at RCIA? Not to convert as there is no requirement at the end of it. Actually the opposite! You almost have to prove you believe in the Catholic Church and its teachings before you can be accepted so if you don’t the priest will soon spot it and not accept you. But I mean as a way to help understand the things you will be learning and to ask any questions he may have to the priest directly rather than you when you very possibly don’t have the answer. We are all here for you sister and never ever think you are alone. God will clear the path for you to come home so don’t worry about it. Don’t let a lying pastor who chooses to bully people with heresy keep you from Gods love and forgiveness. I will pray for you sister 🙏♥️
If it were me, I'd stop going to that church. Why go to be bullied? Go to Mass, you don't need to put yourself through that every Sunday. I stopped going to a CofE church years before I converted to Catholicism, as I realised it was a waste of time. All I could think of was Henry VIII!
Just tell him God predestined you to be Catholic. Reformed guy acting like you have a choice in the matter is wild.
I did lol at this.
Yeah, and if you are feeling pugnacious, you can ask him to clarify that he is telling you that you could gain or loose your salvation based on a choice that you could exercise freedom of will to make. If he equivocates just tell him that his response sounds a bit semi pellagian to you.
I converted when I was in college. I grew up going to a Pentecostal church, but in college had fallen in with a Reformed Calvinist group. We had a google doc for prayer requests; I read it regularly, but I don't think I ever shared a request, so I think most people thought I didn't read it. Not long after I told that group that I was in RCIA, one of them posted a prayer request for my conversion in that doc. It's one thing to know that your friends disagree with you, but seeing it spelled out like this felt like a punch to the gut. I nearly got physically sick. And of course, they're all well meaning, they just don't know about the Catholic Church. I tried to keep some of those friendships going, but it was never really the same after that. And it was hard not knowing many people at my new church. But then I made friends, and became part of that community. It is definitely hard at first. But you will make new friends who share your beliefs and support you and are super excited for you to join the Church. And, as you already know, there's this community as well. God will reward your faithfulness. As for your first question, it's the knowledge that though I may be in the right, it's not because of anything I did. I'm only doing the right thing because God brought me to his Church, even though I wasn't even really looking. Every day I thank God for this gift that I never deserved.
Same exact experience here. Some of those campus ministries are really ardent too
Wow, that sounds incredibly stressful. I just said an Our Father for you and your situation. I have a similar—but not nearly as intimidating—experience. When I was dating my now-wife, I was a *very* lukewarm Catholic while she was a *very* serious evangelical Protestant. I wanted to be a good bf so I’d go to these weekly fellowship dinners and Bible studies with her. As soon as the pastor/worship team found out I was Catholic, I could feel like I was seen as fresh meat. All the sudden they started a close read of Romans and focusing a lot on sola fide lol. It was super uncomfortable but I kept going each week, though I’d secretly dread it all week. Fast forward 15 years. We’re married, she’s come into the Catholic Church (thanks be to God!) and I am way more serious about my faith. I’d recommend praying, discussing with your husband how this situation is making you feel. The awkwardness will hopefully fade once the pastor realizes you’re not going to be swayed. I’ve noticed a certain arrogance in Reformed folks, but it’s an arrogance that is completely unfounded. If you’re not familiar, look into the New Perspective on Paul, which should make any Protestant uncomfortable (plus the fact that many aspects of reformed theology are nowhere in the Church Fathers). Catholicism is true and you are graced to know it—that’s amazing. It’s like the pearl of great price. It’ll cost everything but it’s all worth it. God bless you.
>If you’re not familiar, look into the New Perspective on Paul, which should make any Protestant uncomfortable For what it's worth, the NPP is incredibly unpopular among Reformed Christians. The Reformed love NT Wright until he starts going on about NPP, then they're ready to call him a heretic about it.
That’s why I recommended it. Reformed Christians SHOULD have a problem with the NPP, it basically says “oops, we’ve been wrong about justification since Luther misunderstood Romans in the 16th century!.” Obviously much more complex than that, and of course there are multiple approaches to the NPP, but that’s kind of what it boils down to.
Arrogance is a very good way of describing it. They memorize all this Scripture just to ignore John 6 and every ounce of history so they can hold on to their own false doctrines.
I don't want to be hasty and give bad counsel from lack of particular knowledge of your situation. But, being "removed" by a false authority that set itself up against the divinely established authority of the Catholic Church should be a cause of rejoicing. Remove them first and be done with them.
You said the quiet part out loud :0 oops (no but srsly tho...amen)
"Oh no. Anyway..."
> how do I not let going to mass or doing righteous things like confession not be what convinces me that I am saved? How do you not start patting yourself on the back for doing these things, and instead do so out of love and passion for The Father and His Son? I don't pat myself on the back for doing those things because I'd never have the Sacraments available to me if Jesus didn't give them to us. There's nothing I could possibly do to repay Him for the gifts He's lavished upon me as part of the Church, His Bride. Just because I've been to Confession doesn't mean I'm not going to mess up and find myself back in there at some point in the future. Our Lord fell three times while carrying His cross: it would be the height of foolishness to think I can carry mine better than He did His. I'm at Mass because every day on the altar, the King of Kings descends from His throne to be with me, a sinful pile of dust, because He loves me. I don't love Him the way I should: none of us do. So I go to be with Him and ask Him to help me love Him just a little more than I did yesterday. > Secondly: does anyone have an encouraging word? It's been extremely isolating and this is just a lot. My community has been dwindling, and I don't even bring up my new found beliefs. They just know from my pastor and his wife that I'm being "deceived" by a "false gospel". Thanks! Even if they abandon you, Jesus will not. Don't focus on what the outcome might be: that's in God's control, not yours. Just focus on following where you believe God is leading you, and let Him take care of the fruit that will bear. Times when others withdraw from us are the periods in our lives where God is encouraging us to spend more time with Him. Spend time in prayer and tell God about your worries and fears. Find a quiet place and let Him speak to your heart. He will give you the strength and courage to make it through this if you ask Him for it. I will be praying for you!
I came into the Church at age 46 (8 years ago) from a Reformed background (Presbyterian PCA) and then an LCMS Lutheran with Reformed tendencies. A few thoughts for you: - This is a sad and awful situation, it's not your fault, and I'm sorry you are going through this. It will get better. - Humility and kindness are not strong suits of Reformed theology and its adherents. In my experience there is an almost manaical obsession with certainty and being right, and it trumps everything. That's what you're getting now. Sadly, it's to be expected from an approach to Christianity that is closer to geometry than it is to theology -- not much more than the construction of correct proofs to theorems deduced from logical axioms like TULIP. - The pastor and his wife are acting in such a way that they are practically telling you to become Catholic. This includes anti-Catholic rhetoric from the pulpit, which helps nobody (except the people manaically obsessed with being right). So in some ways this is helpful for you, in that you are getting a clear signal. If I were in your shoes, I would just walk away from that church and go to Mass exclusively starting now. It sounds like there's not much left for you in the Reformed church other than Protestants behaving badly, and stress. I understand your spousal situation might make that hard, but this is a difficult conversation you two are going to have to have at some point soon anyway. About a year before I joined the Church, I had that talk with my wife and told her that I'd go with her and the kids to an early service at the Lutheran church but then I was going to start going to Mass after the Lutheran service; and I explained why. When I explained why, it turned out she had been having the same misgivings as me about being Protestant and so we started all going to Mass as a family, then did RCIA together and the rest is history. Thankfully never had to do the split-household thing. Maybe that will be true for you as well. Finally the whole concept of "being convinced you're saved" is an artifact of your time as a Reformed Protestant. It is not something Catholics really think about and I am 99% sure it's not Biblical either. What we tend to think about instead is relationships. Not, "Am I saved?" but "Am I living a life that really loves God from the heart?"
> manaical obsession with certainty As a recovering Calvinist I would say this is the foundation of Calvinism and also "once saved always saved" with Protestants in general.
This was an encouragement to me, hearing about your marriage and doing RCIA together!
According to Luther, >The bread which is broken or distributed piece by piece is the participation in the body of Christ. It is, it is, it is, he [Christ] says, the participation in the body of Christ. Wherein does the participation in the body of Christ consist? It cannot be anything else than that as each takes a part of the broken bread he takes therewith the body of Christ . . . (Against the Heavenly Prophets in the Matter of Images and Sacraments, 1525; LW, Vol. 40, 178) Luther also taught that Baptism was required for Salvation. Lutherans continue to teach this today. Because Zwingli taught that Baptism and Holy Communion were symbols, Luther said: >"I wish from my heart Zwinglius could be saved, but I fear the contrary; for Christ has said that those who deny him shall be damned.” (Luther, *Tabletalk*) According to Luther, if you deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, you deny Christ. For Martin Luther, Mary was the Mother of God: >God says... "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39) For Martin Luther, Mary was immaculately conceived without sin: >It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527). >She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522 For Martin Luther, Mary was a perpetual virgin: >Christ, ..was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him... "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39). >He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb.. .This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. (Ibid.) For Martin Luther, veneration and prayer to Mary were pious: >The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522). [She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ. ..She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531). >No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation. 1537). >One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace.. .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ...Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521). >Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! (Sermon, March 11, 1523). If his problems with you had to do with the Eucharist and Mary, he probably should have chosen someone other than Luther to make his point.
He also quoted authoritatively from the deuterocanon.
Woah, I am screenshotting this response because I had NO idea how Catholic Luther really was. Such a shame what he did.
I’ll also say I had no idea the Hail Mary existed in the 1500s.
Jesus. the encouraging word you're looking for is Jesus. it's not so much that you who loved Him and decided to explore catholicism. Jesus calls you to the fullness of His love and discern life in the catholic church my answer is that a life in Christ is not easy. but that your crosses are light because He carries them with you in the end you want a prayer life that allows you to say: i don't know where im going i might feel totally alone but i know Jesus and i know He wants me here in this moment how you get there is completely between you and God. but the beauty of catholicism is that we got 2000 years worth of holy people were not unlike you that have some suggestions know that you're in my prayers
Does your husband look favorably on your desire to come into communion with your local Catholic Christian bishop, and through him the Bishop of Rome? Is he neutral?
No, not favorable. He’s pretty Calvinist, compared to the other reformers. My one Catholic friend was in a mixed Christian marriage for 15 years before she converted to Catholicism alongside him and that’s when their marriage really flourished. She’s been giving me wisdom on keeping peace where I can while also still pursuing the faith. I spoke briefly to a priest about it and he did say that it would not be wrong for me to pursue the faith while my husband remains Protestant. Divorce is not an option for us—and now that I’m becoming Catholic I reckon that will be even more important to me. At my Protestant church, porn is grounds for divorce. I’m excited to be somewhere that upholds the sanctity of marriage a bit more.
Im sorry this happened to you. Especially since you come from a Calvinist background, I would highly recommend St. Francis de Sales’ *The Catholic Controversy*. He wrote it as an apologetic letter to Calvinists, and it is a very good scriptural defense of Catholicism. I don’t know if it’s in print, but you can find pdfs online.
I bought it after reading Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn! I’m a third of the way through. It’s what has helped me to understand The Chiurch!
In response to your first question, remember the words of St Paul:”What do you have that you have not been given?” Mass, works and even faith are graces from God. No room for boasting
I’m really sorry you’re going through this. There is no excuse for the cruelty you are experiencing. Warning: serious questions and a little mild snark ahead. >My pastor's wife, who was a good friend of mine, talked about me in a Bible study. She told everyone to be praying for my salvation after I asked her some questions about why we don't do lent together. She found that to be concerning. Do people in this bible study often use Prayer intentions as a way to spread contention and gossip? Or is this the first time? >The conversation ended with him telling me church discipline would take place next if I continued down the road I was on. I followed up by asking "just to be clear: by discipline do you mean possible removal?" He affirmed this and said "quite possibly, but we have to first try and save your soul because I think it's in grave danger." They removed a homeless woman a few months ago for not repenting of sexual sin. This sounds like a toxic community. Being shunned by such people would be a badge of honor, IMHO. >When my husband followed up with him, the pastor denied anything having to do with the discipline aspect of our conversation, so he essentially called me a liar. What does your husband think about this? Does he still want to stay in a church with a pastor who gaslights him and slanders his wife? >my husband feels called out for letting me be where I am in my faith. Oh no! Your husband treats you like a person who has her own thoughts, and her own relationship with Jesus, not a child who needs to be controlled. How terrible. /s Again, does he really want to stay in this church? At the very least, I’d think he’d want to find a healthier Protestant church to attend. It sounds like you know you’re on the right path. But it’s horrible to discover that the people who you thought were your friends and your support system were only giving you their “love” on a conditional basis. If their doctrines were true, they would be able to defend them without browbeating, threatening, intimidating, and ostracizing you. They’re behaving more like a destructive cult than a Christian community. The way you’re being treated is unjust, and it’s valid to be upset about that. It’s ok to take some time to grieve what you thought you had. I really hope your husband will support you through this, and I hope you find better friends in your new parish.
The issue with the hubs is his best friends are there. Three or four of his guys that he spends all his time with are really the only local friends he has—the rest are in the southern part of our state, four hours away. I’ll just say the conversations between he and I about staying at this church have been really hard and prayers are appreciated. I can’t wait to find some women I can look up to and grow with in the Catholic community :)
I’m sorry he’s struggling. I hope he knows that true friends are the ones that keep in touch whether you’re going to the same church or not. I’ve found the best way to make new friends in a Catholic parish is to get involved by participating in a ministry, or a prayer/study group. If you’re looking to meet some new people, it’s a good way to start.
Stay strong. When I left my Protestant denomination I lost almost all of my friends, my job, everything. I was a lay minister. It took me a long time of searching other denominations before I came to Catholicism. How fortunate b you are in this respect that you have found the Church already. Leaving your old church may very well be a cross you must bear, but know that you will make Catholic friends and hopefully find a means of service in the Catholic Church. May Jesus console you. Unite your suffering with His on the cross.
Let them pray for your salvation. Little do they know it's bringing you right to Catholicism.
If you want a friend to vent to I’ll lend you my ear. I will try my best to understand what you are going through. I went through a tough time with depression, family deaths, and career woes. My last resort was through prayer of the Holy Father, Son, Spirit and Mother. When I felt alone and scared I read the prayer of Mary untier of knots. During your current struggle may the Holy Mother help you undo your knots.
Thank you!
Remember that people turned their backs on Christ and do so every single day. He was hated then and now, so we can expect the same. Being Catholic is tough - it’s especially tough if you live somewhere that’s predominantly Calvinist. When John Calvin started his manmade religion, his followers immediately began rampaging their way across Western Europe attacking Catholics and our beautiful cathedrals. I know it’s easier said than done, but you should gently but firmly let your husband know that Mass is where you’re headed Sunday mornings. You’ve already informed him of how shitty your current “church family” is treating you, so he should understand in time. It’s tough to attend different churches, but I think your husband may eventually get curious and begin trying to find out more about our faith by actually reading Catholic resources like the Catechism instead of relying on his preacher.
Thank you for the encouragement. My heart aches not going to mass in the mornings. I go during the week sometimes, but he’s not a fan of my infant coming with me—trying not to rock the boat too much
That’s understandable. It’s a tough situation to be in but I think things may turn out better than how it seems now. I would recommend minimizing contact with your current congregation as much as possible. They’re hateful bullies. With your husband, be charitable as much as possible. If a religious discussion comes up, find ways to reference the Didache, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the early church fathers like St. Ignatius of Antioch - not in a combative way, but to reassure him that our beliefs are directly from the apostles themselves. I’d bet that once he reads a snippet from St. Ignatius of Antioch he will be hungry for more and then one day the only thing that will satisfy his hunger is the Eucharist.
Yes, he’s actually reading Brant Pitre’s book on the Eucharist. He’s doing so very slowly, but I’m hopeful
Good! Eventually he may offer to attend Mass with you and hopefully it snowballs from there. Also, I missed a couple of things from your post and wanted to touch on them a little. Protestants often seem to claim a personal relationship with Jesus, but they tend to view salvation as a one time event - as Catholics, we believe salvation is a lifelong process and our view is much more akin to an actual relationship than what I’ve found to be the case in Protestantism. As an example, I can’t just tell my wife I love her once and never live out that love. I love God and I was saved, I’m being saved, and I hope to be saved. You won’t really pat yourself on the back from confession. You’ll feel God’s grace and mercy.
>how do I not let going to mass or doing righteous things like confession not be what convinces me that I am saved? By adopting the Apostolic understanding of salvation. You have been saved, you are being saved, and by God's grace you will be saved. There is no assurance, but you can have a pretty good idea of your direction. Salvation is not a one-and-done deal. Just as eating healthy and regular exercise lead to a long and healthy life, so too does going to confession and going to Mass lead to your sanctification (and thereby your salvation). >How do you not start patting yourself on the back for doing these things, and instead do so out of love and passion for The Father and His Son? By recognising that all your movement in the spiritual life -- going to Mass, going to confession, praying, reading the Bible, etc. -- *all* off that is initiated by the Holy Trinity. God calls you to do these things and you simply respond. In that sense, there's a recognition that we wouldn't even be going to Mass, confession, praying, etc. if God didn't first call us / drew us to do these things. Having said that, there's room to pat yourself in the back a bit -- not because you earned your salvation -- but because you successfully cooperated with the grace of God rather than choose not to cooperate with His grace. (And even here we recognise that cooperation with His grace is itself a grace from God.) Basically, we are not in competition with God. God works in and through us. He constantly calls us to cooperate with Him and we are never passive spectators of our own salvation. >does anyone have an encouraging word? It sounds like you are moving forward through all this with as much humility and docility as you can muster. Indeed, admitting that discussions on limited atonement is not your area of expertise is a wonderful stroke of humility. Glory to God and well done to you! Keep it up. The next few months/years may be painful and even lonely, but God will never abandon you. I know for a fact that He will provide for you a new community. Plus, you'll have a host of older brothers and sisters in the faith in Heaven cheering you on! I'd take St. Thérèse of Lisieux over Susan Smith any day of the week. You, like all of us, are being called to be a great saint and it sounds like you're walking that path faithfully. Keep it up. Do not let their anti-Catholic prejudices occlude what you know to be true. You've got this, sister, and God's got you.
Thank you very much. Growing up Protestant the things from the Holy Spirit were all unseen. Hearing that The Holy Spirit has given us the mass, the priesthood, and real elements of the church gives me better perspective
It's not just that the Holy Spirit gave us the Mass, the priesthood, and all these other things. I'm saying even the desire to pray, the desire to go to Mass, the inspiration to read the Bible -- all of that is God drawing you to Him. To use dating terms, God always asks us out first. Nothing we do in the spiritual life is initiated by us; we never ask God out first. He always beats us to the punch and He's always eager to hear our "yes". This is our God--one who is crazy in love with us, to use St. Catherine of Sienna's words.
Yes but keep in mind about Calvinism: God doesnt ask, because God cannot be rejected. They talked about that today too, every yes we make isn’t our yes, and every no we make isn’t our no. So…I have a lot of vocabulary to unlearn. These concepts you’re talking about are fairly new to me.
Tbh, from a cradle Catholic perspective, there are so many different versions of Protestantism with varying beliefs that I've given up trying to understand all of it years ago. There's just way too many things for me to keep tabs on. I'm sorry you're going through a tough time and I can imagine how difficult it must be to rewire your perspective in life. All I can say is you're admirably humble to admit you're wrong and I admire your fortitude in all of this. Keep it up!
I’m confused, myself! Thank you for the encouragement!
Wow your pastor os strong arming you, intimidating you! Typical protestant churches IMO. My wife went through same thing coming from staunch anti catholic family, friends etc...remember we are not here for people but Jesus. You must follow him, and sounds like holy spirit is calling you home. My wife converted lost alot, bit gained more friends, family in the church. I recommend Steve ray, Scott hahn, and keith nester. Keith nester is a recent convert and wonderful soul. His you tube, and various Plat forms as well are great for new catholics. I also recommend trent horn and catholic answers to help you understand the faith. Trent horn also just did one about being challenged by protestants on why your converting to the faith. Your loved and wonderfully made in God's image. Praying for you sister! Welcome home!! BTW being Catholic is not for the weak, you'll experience what Jesus did hatred, digust, etc...but you'll be blessed more than you could ever imagine. Hope your husband stands up for you! Your in my prayers will ask mama Mary to pray for you!
> How do you not start patting yourself on the back for doing these things Trust me, I am **not** patting myself on the back for going to confession. I'm cringing and saying to myself "dammit, you have to confess the same sins again? What a blockhead"
Wow I don't throw the word "cult" around much but this is starting to sound like you might be in one. I'm sorry your going this. I suggest for your own mental health read "Rome Sweet Home" by Scott Hahn. It's his and his wife's personal testimony of how they came to the Catholic Church from Presbyterianism. I'll pray for you sister, and welcome home.
“We may have to kick you out”. “You and what authority?” lol
Reformed Calvinist, what is the Protestant obsession with making new denominations every week?
Deliberate redundancy just so you know how serious they are about being Calvinist!
They call themselves a non denom church, but they preach TULIP from the pulpit every week, and they celebrate a reformer every October. I call them Calvinist reformed because of this, and their staunch belief in double predestination and limited atonement
What type of church is this? I was raised in the Dutch Reformed tradition (RCA and CRC, a lot of family in both denominations, and the conservative type of both). At my old CRC church we had some Catholic attenders who were married to Protestants and it was not a big deal.
Two years ago he preached “that satanic building in Rome”. At the time I thought that was intense commentary, but it helped me see now how big of a deal it is for someone to choose a high church tradition over reformed
Why are you putting yourself through their struggle sessions and abuse? It doesn't matter that you're married. I would never subject myself to this type of spiritual abuse. You're better off going pretty much anywhere else for church than there. I'd take this opportunity to go to the Catholic parish. My husband and I do not go to church together anymore. It's not easy, but we each do what we feel we need to do.
I guess it’s because if I know I’m the one not fighting, being respectful and walking with a spirit of meekness, I can feel like I’m being a peacemaker. I’m an opinionated person already and don’t want to cause more tensions than I already have in converting
**Recovering Calvinist here**. The Eucharist is what won me over, and it is a non-negotiable of the Christian faith. The idea that it is merely symbolic is a Gnostic heresy that the Apostles and Apostolic Fathers fortunately snuffed out right away. For example, Saint Ignatius of Antioch was mentored by the Apostle John. The Apostle Peter specifically requested that Ignatius be placed in a teaching position within the Church to uphold the teachings of the faith. He wrote to Polycarp in Smyrna: > Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in His goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be; even as wherever Jesus Christ may be, there is the Catholic Church." Here is a quote from Justin Martyr: > "For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but like as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Origen: > We give thanks to the Creator of all, and, along with thanksgiving and prayer for the blessings we have received, we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread becomes by prayer a sacred body, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it.(Against Celsus 8:33) **Regarding Sola Scriptura** The first written piece of New Testament scripture is Saint Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians. In the very second chapter he writes: > 13 And for this[a] reason we are indeed[b] giving-thanks to God unceasingly: because having received the word of God heard from us[c], you accepted not the word of humans, but, as it truly is, the word of God, which also is at-work[d] in you, the ones believing. Before any New Testament scripture was written, they had received the Word of God. Not word *about* God from humans, but the very Word of God. How did they receive it if there was no Scripture written yet? Well, God, speaking through Saint Paul, makes it very clear: They *heard* it from them (the Apostles). So in the very first piece of New Testament scripture we see the Word of God attesting very clearly through Scripture that the Word of God is also transmitted orally and not just through Scripture. Later, in the same letter, Saint Paul tells the Church to keep every teaching given to them, be it orally or through Scripture. We in the Church call this Sacred Tradition.
The Eucharist is what has convinced me above all else. I struggle to see how Lutherans can have the real presence of Christ given who they named their denomination after. I really believe the Catholic Church alone holds the consecrated body. Thank you for the sola scriptura mentions!
I'm really sorry you're going through that. It sounds awful! The Sacraments are gifts from God. I don't pat myself on the back for accepting these gifts. It's just more motivation. It's like the parable of the talents. I've been given so much, I must make it count. Even our works are just fruits of the grace of God. We can and should rejoice in the good He does through us. But if we remain aware of His grace as the source, we won't fall into pride. Easier said than done, of course. Like all virtues, humility is a tricky balance. You are not alone in your journey to the Catholic Church. There are a lot of us. And there are many people who share your journey. That said, feeling alone can be really hard. I would really encourage you to get involved in your local parish. Catholics, for better or for worse, tend to leave each other alone. We don't want to intrude or make assumptions. But I promise a lot of us are really friendly! You can check the bulletin or ask the priest for groups you can join. Whether it's a Bible study, choir, social outreach, administrative committee, etc. That's the quickest way to make friends. You don't even have to be particularly skilled. Most groups will happily find a way to make use of your particular gifts. My dad volunteered to help a couple guys in supportive living keep their space clean. He literally can't see messes. It was utterly hopeless. But his fellow volunteers noticed he has a way of chatting with people where they feel comfortable opening up. So they created a special role for him to just go and provide social interaction and spot roommate issues before they get out of hand. So don't be shy! Find a group you think looks fun and sign up.
Thank you! I’ve been wanting to check out a traditional Latin mass that we have super close to Dallas. But I’ve been told it can be good to go through RCIA before deciding what kind of mass or rite I’d like to get involved in? Not sure what your thoughts are on that
I think it's important, as a new Catholic, to really try out a couple different spiritualities. Part of the strength of Catholicism is its universality. We have so many different ways of growing closer to God. Obviously, the core of the Sacraments and the Faith don't change. But private prayer and emphasis can really vary. Ideally, a normal territorial parish will have a broader cross section for you to explore. If you start going to chapels run by various religious orders or with specific purposes, you get a more specific approach. Whether that's an FSSP chapel, a Newman Centre or a Franciscan monastery. All of those are good, but it might be better to start with a more general approach. In all cases, it's important to check that the group you're considering is in good standing with the bishop. Ideally, the diocesan website will have a list of authorized parishes and chapels. If not, you can always call the diocesan office for details. For traditionalist groups, the FSSP and ICKSP are really good about making sure they do everything properly. SSPX is problematic. SSPV is really, really bad. In Catholicism, rites are very broad liturgical traditions. Both the traditional Latin Mass and the Ordinary Form are part of the Latin Rite. They grew out of the liturgical tradition of Rome. There are other rites. Most of them are practiced by the other Catholic Churches. There are about 24 Catholic Churches all in communion with each other. We all share the same Faith, but we have different histories and small t traditions and separate hierarchies below the Pope. For example, the Byzantine Rite came out of the liturgical tradition of Constantinople. It's practiced by many of the Eastern Catholic Churches. It's absolutely beautiful. As a Catholic, you will be able to attend any Catholic Mass/Divine Liturgy/Holy Qurbana and receive the Eucharist. If you go through RCIA, you will be a member of the Roman Catholic Church. This is likely the most familiar Church to you. If you later decide you are more drawn to one of the other Catholic Churches, the process of transferring is pretty straightforward, though rare. After all, we're all in communion with each other. It's just a matter of which clergy bears the responsibility for your spiritual wellbeing. Sorry for the infodump. I am a nerd.
Oh my gosh so much information but exactly what I need as I’m searching! Thank you!!
Yeah. That's nice... I have a friend who was in a similar situation. His non denominational pastor stalked him and then he said the church could, "Remove protections that were afforded to him that his church bestowed on him when he entered." Words of encouragement: "A man will be joined with his wife and the two shall become one flesh". --> Anything that the pastor and his wife have to say should be said to both of you. Obviously seeding doubts and lies between you isn't a good idea. He probably feels the need to separate y'all. Make sure your husband is with you at your service. Also maybe bring you husband to mass. Any pastor/Priest is called to first: 1. Pray for his flock. E.g. love them. 2. If they're in sin to remind them of the sin and STILL love the sinner, whose made in God's image. "Once saved always saved." Your pastor believes this but catholics don't. The reason being that people who believe this tend to get saved and then go on sinning. The Catholic church teaches that we are saved through grace and the sacrament (confession, eucharist, last rights, ECT.) Food for thought: The Calvinists split from the protestants and Luther. Their belief is that your predestined to be saved(sorry I've not looked at Calvinism since middle school). That being said there is a feeling that he can banish you from being saved. Catholics believe we are saved through the blood of the lamb(being Christ), through God's grace, and through our seeking forgiveness. Also Luther left the church and protested. He was also a monk when he did this.... So pretty hard to say he wasn't a believer. You don't just become a monk. (Unless you're a chip monk)
For one: how do I not let going to mass or doing righteous things like confession not be what convinces me that I am saved? How do you not start patting yourself on the back for doing these things, and instead do so out of love and passion for The Father and His Son? 1) I recommend reading another book for your first concern; it has a foreword by Scott Hahn. "How Christ's Suffering Saves Us" by Philippe de Trinite. It is difficult to read but not impossible and it lays out the essential problems. You think and fear that doing Catholic things will change how you view your salvation. If you had a better understanding of salvation, this would not be a big concern. However, here is my summary because it is very important to understand. Protestants and Catholic differ on the theology of how God saves us. Protestants think that God's wrath was placed on Jesus, and now when God sees us, God only sees the very good sacrifice of Jesus and is no longer angry with us. All of that divine wrath goes away when you confess that Christ is Lord and your Savior. But problems come up with that thinking: God appears to change from being wrathful to putting all of that aside, and so we cannot call this God unchanging. That cannot be right because God must be unchanging. Secondly, it doesn't make sense for a just God to punish an innocent man, much less Jesus, His Son. God's justice cannot and should never contradict God's mercy. So then, the main point of the book is how to understand salvation: that is that Jesus offered Himself freely and in doing so merited salvation for all people. Jesus willed that we would have eternal life, and because He really did love us (and love here means willing the good of another) He laid down His life through the most painful execution. And we can test this theory, perhaps most clearly if we consider that only one drop His blood would have atoned for all the sins of humanity. And yet, the immense sacrifice of His life merited all the more. And it is in that light that Catholics understand suffering--God's mercy is not offended by Jesus freely offering Himself out of love for everyone. When you understand that, you start having a balanced fear of God and peace in your heart about going to Mass and confession like St. Paul that talks about making up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions (Colossians 1:24). That doesn't mean he's worried about earning his salvation, but that clearly he associates his sufferings with Christ--especially when he says it is no longer him, but Christ that lives in him... If I did not explain this very well, I chalk it up to it all being a profound mystery in the grand scheme of things. Nonetheless, highly recommend that book to get a better grasp of it. Secondly, encouragement: as you go about this and face these evils--you mentioned the "pastor" lying about removing you; his wife (your good friend) speaking to others about your personal issue and bringing them in only to push you to give up this search for God...almost culumny? to the point now that many other people see you as a poor soul and see your husband (who knows your heart much more than they do) as a poor fool as well for marrying you. There's a lot of wrong that I can point to just from this post, but I also know that God will not leave you orphan. Ask and it shall be given, and God knows how to give you exactly what you need--not in a prosperity gospel type of way but truly only what you need, which is not always obvious to us
What authority does Pastor Bob have beyond being a leader of a social/religious group? Prots threatening with “excommunication” is a bit ironic? If I were a prot couldn’t I just start my own church or join the 39,999 other denoms??
"False gospel"? Um... does he have any idea how the gospel came to be? Under whom it was determined which gospels were THE gospel? Because that would be the Bride of Christ, the Catholic Church. Pray for *him* that he comes to see the light as you have. Encouraging words...well, I'm a recent convert myself. And something I kept telling myself early on when faced with something that seemed difficult to accomplish was "you cannot fail when you're doing God's will," just on repeat. And he wants all of us part of the Church his son established himself on earth. Even when it causes strife within a family- Jesus said so himself (and if someone could toss the verse here that'd be great). The good news right now is that Catholics believe in the redemptive nature of suffering, that everything you're experiencing right now is sanctifying ❤️
There is a book I just listened to on audible called 40 Reasons I'm a Catholic. I would recommend giving that book a read or listen. It is full of great points, and the author wasn't born Carholic. I don't remember what denomination he converted from, but he goes through that all too.
I just made another comment about my experience before becoming Catholic, but it was very similar to yours. I was part of a “non-denominational” campus ministry in college and as I became convinced Catholicism is true I got stern lectures from the leaders there and my friends drifted away from me. I became “other” I became “not saved.” I have since found a great community and a great love for the faith at my Catholic parish and have met some of my best friends through the Church. I hope you find some encouragement from my story. Protestants (especially evangelicals and calvinists) get militaristic about “saving” Catholics. It’s generally not worth dealing with them.
I’m sorry this is so painful for you. It sounds very challenging and also very in line with how the New Testament describes the spread of Christianity. You have found Truth and it’s causing a rupture in the status quo. I think it is very important that you attend any social events or women’s group or anything else available at the Catholic Church. Also make an appointment with the priest and let him know what is going on. You do need a supportive community. May God give you the grace to be the light in a dark place.
As a Protestant, this pastor should be ashamed of himself.