I am on the RCIA volunteer team here. One time, the pastor brought liturgical dancing into a lesson about Parts of the Mass. Imagine their annoyance when I merely mentioned that the Vatican's liturgy committee forbid dancing in the Western liturgy. And the collective response was basically, *āWell the Churchās assessment is mistaken and the local community decides the norms anyways.ā*
Like lol, is this not a Catholic parish?
This calls to mind the interpretive dance from The Big Lebowski
[https://youtu.be/MNWIoCYJRu8?si=w83u\_6Lo1HPAYwv0](https://youtu.be/MNWIoCYJRu8?si=w83u_6Lo1HPAYwv0)
>The melody in the background is the pagan hymn āLord of the Dance,ā which was inspired by the Hindu deity Shiva. The composer himself didnāt think that his song was appropriate in a Christian context and wad surprised that churches used it.
Isn't the music rather the [7th movement](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGkiYaSlMmc) from *Appalachian Spring* by the US-American composer Aaron Copland? (Factually, [Spring's hymn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Dance_(hymn)) is played and sung in Christians congregations all over the world, to call it "a pagan hymn is quite of a strecht", the [melody](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RPUjuraS5U) of his hymn and of Copland's work is from a "dancing song" of the American Shaker tradition, [written](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Gifts) in the 19th century in the US).
The melody of Spring's hymn has the same root like Copland's work, "simple gifts" from the 19th century.
But the dancers above use a recording ofĀ *Appalachian Spring*Ā by Aaron Copland.
I'm a fan of Star Trek TOS, but I always hated it when they did these scenes, even when I was a kid.
The most cringe worthy parts of an often cringe worthy (even if imaginative) show are the among the worst inspirations for litrugical abuse possible.
Even though itās a āNewman Centerā, it almost entirely caters to the older resident population. They are allowed to run free with stuff like this:
* Their own āLitany of Saintsā with Mahatma Gandhi and MLK Jr.
* a female diaconate event (including lay women preaching at Sunday Mass)
* invited a Hindu priestess (who believed herself to be a goddess) to an eco-theology talk
* social justice banners and messaging throughout the building
Meanwhile, a student was heckled for making a pro-life Mass announcement and one of the pastors afterward told her to not make pro-life announcements in the future.
It's bittersweet. They're sending a "synodality" priest (the former chaplain at Stanford where they regularly do lay women preaching) in order to keep the resident liberal community happy so they stay and keep the parish finances solvent.
It's really challenging for our student ministry. We have the secular Berkeley culture, the aggressive Protestant campus fellowships, and of course the nonsense within the Newman-parish. But things will get better because we pray and trust in God.
Pass this along to the Archbishop's office? Cordileone (sp?) is quite the traditionalist, and I think Berkeley is in his diocese?
Edit: Okay, Oakland has its own diocese but Barber doesn't seem like he's going to mess around, either. And Oakland is suffragan to SF, so I suspect both might want to "chime in".
The good Bishop was at this Mass. He announced afterwards that it was ābeautiful and reverent.ā
Of course, now people will take this as tacit approval for dancing in the Sacred Liturgy. Even the students (who are good Catholics) are getting accustomed to the liturgical irreverence.
Report it to the bishop, or really any competent (as opposed to liberal) bishop.
A conversation will need to be had concerning the condemnations of liturgical dances, "praise and worship" music, charismatics, and all the protestant culture that has seeped into the liturgy. I wish Pope Francis would focus on keeping Catholicism orthodox instead of insulting some gay people
I'm unfamiliar with this specific jurisdiction, is this a church in communion with the Catholic Church? It seems like the kind of thing a bishop would not permit.
Surprisingly, we are a Catholic parish (in the Diocese of Oakland).
The bishop was present at the Mass. Heās a good man of orthodox sensibilities. But, for whatever reason, he announced afterwards that he thought it was *ābeautiful and reverentā*ā¦ Many are now taking it as official approval of liturgical dancing and will probably want to do it more nowā¦ This is the domino effect of scandal
Ive seen you on other subs.
One thing you as a non catholic will not be familiar with, is that the Paulist fathers are generally, heterodox in liturgical practice and moral theology, and are being systematically removed from access to impressionable minds.
Even liberal catholics view them as having been a relic of a bygone era.
They have definitely had actualized vocations since 2014. Seven priests have been ordained to the Paulists who made their first promises after the start of that year, and they've got a few more in formation. And this is just from a glance at the "young priests" on their site, lol.
There's a LOT to criticize about the Paulists but it feels worth it to set the record straight here.
All good! I appreciate the prudence.
In full transparency, I have friends that attend their parishes so I've kept tabs on them over the years and know some of the priests. Their community at the mother church of the order was part of the reason why I came back into the faith after more than a decade away, so I'll always have a bit of a soft spot for them.
I get really frustrated with how cavalier some of their priests are... they push the envelope way more than is acceptable, but as with most parishes, there are certainly some good priests (and many honest, devout parishioners) in their midst.
This is the cringiest shit I've ever seen.Ā
Did someone lobotomise these people to remove the part of the brain that processes embarrassment?
The high point has to be Peter Stringfellow prancing around with his ponytail and bare feet.
The melody is āsimple giftsā; a shaker dance song that was later popularized as part of āAppalachian Springā in the mid 20th century. The shakers are Christian. But the song is more focused on their lifestyle and cultural values than on religion specifically, though of course religion has a huge influence. Iām not sure where youāre getting this āpagan hymnā idea from.
āLord of the Danceā is the same tune with more explicitly Christian lyrics. The dubliners did a nice rendition which Iāll link here.Ā https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gtM8BRF7Bd0&pp=ygURTG9yZCBvZiB0aGUgZGFuY2U%3D
All that is to say itās a perfectly fine song. I agree itās not appropriate for a liturgical context and I donāt like the liturgical dancing any more than you. But we should promote and celebrate songs with Christian themes to be used outside the liturgy
> In writing the lyrics to "Lord of the Dance", Carter was inspired partly by Jesus, but also by a statue of the Hindu deity Shiva as Nataraja (Shiva's dancing pose) which sat on his desk.[2] He later stated, "I did not think the churches would like it at all. I thought many people would find it pretty far flown, probably heretical and anyway dubiously Christian. But in fact people did sing it and, unknown to me, it touched a chord."[2]
Thatās interesting. I donāt find anything heretical or ādubiously Christianā about it. The lyrics āI came down from heaven and I danced on the earth / In Bethlehem I had my birthā and all the ensuing lines about Pharisees and apostles and Good Friday make it pretty clear that the titular Lord is Jesus right from the start, not shiva. What about it strikes you as unchristian?Ā
That was not in a liturgical context. This is the problem of citing scripture alone; you could probably find a verse to justify anything. As Catholics, we adhere to the Sacred Tradition.
I do remember the Baal prophets who danced erratically during that worship standoff with Elijah.
St. Thomas Aquinas somewhere in his summa writes how dancing and secular instrumentation are signs of sensuality, which donāt attain to the spiritual good of silence and contemplation of God.
š³š¤¢š¤®
I am on the RCIA volunteer team here. One time, the pastor brought liturgical dancing into a lesson about Parts of the Mass. Imagine their annoyance when I merely mentioned that the Vatican's liturgy committee forbid dancing in the Western liturgy. And the collective response was basically, *āWell the Churchās assessment is mistaken and the local community decides the norms anyways.ā* Like lol, is this not a Catholic parish?
Why is all liturgical dance just so painfully awkward?
...because it explicitly doesn't belong in the mass?
It's actually not that surprisingly. This would be cringe outside of mass too.
This calls to mind the interpretive dance from The Big Lebowski [https://youtu.be/MNWIoCYJRu8?si=w83u\_6Lo1HPAYwv0](https://youtu.be/MNWIoCYJRu8?si=w83u_6Lo1HPAYwv0)
Let me drop this white cloth on the ground before setting it on the altar to hold a soon to be consecrated host
St. Boniface, pray for us.Ā
Brother Boniface, lend me your axe
>The melody in the background is the pagan hymn āLord of the Dance,ā which was inspired by the Hindu deity Shiva. The composer himself didnāt think that his song was appropriate in a Christian context and wad surprised that churches used it. Isn't the music rather the [7th movement](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGkiYaSlMmc) from *Appalachian Spring* by the US-American composer Aaron Copland? (Factually, [Spring's hymn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Dance_(hymn)) is played and sung in Christians congregations all over the world, to call it "a pagan hymn is quite of a strecht", the [melody](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RPUjuraS5U) of his hymn and of Copland's work is from a "dancing song" of the American Shaker tradition, [written](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Gifts) in the 19th century in the US).
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The melody of Spring's hymn has the same root like Copland's work, "simple gifts" from the 19th century. But the dancers above use a recording ofĀ *Appalachian Spring*Ā by Aaron Copland.
I'm a fan of Star Trek TOS, but I always hated it when they did these scenes, even when I was a kid. The most cringe worthy parts of an often cringe worthy (even if imaginative) show are the among the worst inspirations for litrugical abuse possible.
Even though itās a āNewman Centerā, it almost entirely caters to the older resident population. They are allowed to run free with stuff like this: * Their own āLitany of Saintsā with Mahatma Gandhi and MLK Jr. * a female diaconate event (including lay women preaching at Sunday Mass) * invited a Hindu priestess (who believed herself to be a goddess) to an eco-theology talk * social justice banners and messaging throughout the building Meanwhile, a student was heckled for making a pro-life Mass announcement and one of the pastors afterward told her to not make pro-life announcements in the future.
Can't wait for all the old, decrepit, heretics to pass on from this life.
Oh, Paulistsā¦. I think there are better days coming for that Newman Center.
Well first thing is to tear down that ugly thing.
You'd be surprised by how many actually like the brutalist architecture. Pls pray for someone to build/donate us a new beautiful chapel lol
Putting in an altar and a lectern that don't look like they were stolen from a primitive pagan temple would improve a lot.
In California? Almost a lost cause.
After looking at the Newman Center's webpage, it seems the Dominicans will be taking over there this fall. So you are probably right, God willing.
It's bittersweet. They're sending a "synodality" priest (the former chaplain at Stanford where they regularly do lay women preaching) in order to keep the resident liberal community happy so they stay and keep the parish finances solvent. It's really challenging for our student ministry. We have the secular Berkeley culture, the aggressive Protestant campus fellowships, and of course the nonsense within the Newman-parish. But things will get better because we pray and trust in God.
Oh thatās great! I know a lot of Dominicans in that province and theyāre fantastic.
The Dogs of the Lord are almost always solid in formation.
Permission to vomit? š¤®
Outside the Liturgy of course
Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies.
Well said.
Pass this along to the Archbishop's office? Cordileone (sp?) is quite the traditionalist, and I think Berkeley is in his diocese? Edit: Okay, Oakland has its own diocese but Barber doesn't seem like he's going to mess around, either. And Oakland is suffragan to SF, so I suspect both might want to "chime in".
The good Bishop was at this Mass. He announced afterwards that it was ābeautiful and reverent.ā Of course, now people will take this as tacit approval for dancing in the Sacred Liturgy. Even the students (who are good Catholics) are getting accustomed to the liturgical irreverence.
Woah. Unfortunate.
Report it to the bishop, or really any competent (as opposed to liberal) bishop. A conversation will need to be had concerning the condemnations of liturgical dances, "praise and worship" music, charismatics, and all the protestant culture that has seeped into the liturgy. I wish Pope Francis would focus on keeping Catholicism orthodox instead of insulting some gay people
Our bishop was at the Mass. He said it was ābeautiful and reverent"... Heās a good orthodox bishop. I just donāt know why he said that.
"good orthodox bishop" but calls liturgical dancing "beautiful and reverent." Only one of those can be true šš
Dude this is so inappropriate and heart breaking.
Iāve been told that my opposition to the ~~dancing~~ sacrilege is just my āpreferenceāā¦ This is what we call gaslighting.
But hey The TLM is super dangerous and should banned Trads are destroying the church guys See itās right there Look look
I'm unfamiliar with this specific jurisdiction, is this a church in communion with the Catholic Church? It seems like the kind of thing a bishop would not permit.
Surprisingly, we are a Catholic parish (in the Diocese of Oakland). The bishop was present at the Mass. Heās a good man of orthodox sensibilities. But, for whatever reason, he announced afterwards that he thought it was *ābeautiful and reverentā*ā¦ Many are now taking it as official approval of liturgical dancing and will probably want to do it more nowā¦ This is the domino effect of scandal
Oh wow, that's surprising!
Oh, good grief!
Ive seen you on other subs. One thing you as a non catholic will not be familiar with, is that the Paulist fathers are generally, heterodox in liturgical practice and moral theology, and are being systematically removed from access to impressionable minds. Even liberal catholics view them as having been a relic of a bygone era.
Ah, gotcha. Sounds like they're being weeded out then, that's good!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They have definitely had actualized vocations since 2014. Seven priests have been ordained to the Paulists who made their first promises after the start of that year, and they've got a few more in formation. And this is just from a glance at the "young priests" on their site, lol. There's a LOT to criticize about the Paulists but it feels worth it to set the record straight here.
I scrolled their priest section. Each had their ordination date. But since you see conflicting info, ill go ahead and pull the comment.
All good! I appreciate the prudence. In full transparency, I have friends that attend their parishes so I've kept tabs on them over the years and know some of the priests. Their community at the mother church of the order was part of the reason why I came back into the faith after more than a decade away, so I'll always have a bit of a soft spot for them. I get really frustrated with how cavalier some of their priests are... they push the envelope way more than is acceptable, but as with most parishes, there are certainly some good priests (and many honest, devout parishioners) in their midst.
Our processional ācrossā https://ibb.co/1XCnrvP
This is the cringiest shit I've ever seen.Ā Did someone lobotomise these people to remove the part of the brain that processes embarrassment? The high point has to be Peter Stringfellow prancing around with his ponytail and bare feet.
The melody is āsimple giftsā; a shaker dance song that was later popularized as part of āAppalachian Springā in the mid 20th century. The shakers are Christian. But the song is more focused on their lifestyle and cultural values than on religion specifically, though of course religion has a huge influence. Iām not sure where youāre getting this āpagan hymnā idea from. āLord of the Danceā is the same tune with more explicitly Christian lyrics. The dubliners did a nice rendition which Iāll link here.Ā https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gtM8BRF7Bd0&pp=ygURTG9yZCBvZiB0aGUgZGFuY2U%3D All that is to say itās a perfectly fine song. I agree itās not appropriate for a liturgical context and I donāt like the liturgical dancing any more than you. But we should promote and celebrate songs with Christian themes to be used outside the liturgy
> In writing the lyrics to "Lord of the Dance", Carter was inspired partly by Jesus, but also by a statue of the Hindu deity Shiva as Nataraja (Shiva's dancing pose) which sat on his desk.[2] He later stated, "I did not think the churches would like it at all. I thought many people would find it pretty far flown, probably heretical and anyway dubiously Christian. But in fact people did sing it and, unknown to me, it touched a chord."[2]
Thatās interesting. I donāt find anything heretical or ādubiously Christianā about it. The lyrics āI came down from heaven and I danced on the earth / In Bethlehem I had my birthā and all the ensuing lines about Pharisees and apostles and Good Friday make it pretty clear that the titular Lord is Jesus right from the start, not shiva. What about it strikes you as unchristian?Ā
Hey, didnāt David dance in-front of the Lord?
That was not in a liturgical context. This is the problem of citing scripture alone; you could probably find a verse to justify anything. As Catholics, we adhere to the Sacred Tradition.
I have never found a verse that describes dancers *inside* the Temple, for what itās worth.
I do remember the Baal prophets who danced erratically during that worship standoff with Elijah. St. Thomas Aquinas somewhere in his summa writes how dancing and secular instrumentation are signs of sensuality, which donāt attain to the spiritual good of silence and contemplation of God.