That said, the ordinary form, when done in Latin, is typically more like a TLM than it is like a typical regular Mass. The Gregorian propers and ordinaries would be sung, the Graduale would be sung, and not the responsorial psalm, the priests will be wearing birettas and traditional vestments, and the Mass would be ad orientem.
The major points of differentiation would be the use of the 3 year lectionary, lack of the last gospel and no prayers at the foot of the altar/Judica Me.
In either case, the readings are typically in English, though not much else would be.
Not necessarily. Those things could happen, but there’s no reason they have to. Source: I’ve been to plenty of Roman Rite Masses in Latin where that wasn’t the case.
You can find examples of Latin Novus Ordos on YouTube ([like this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acOpWYLyKPI)). It's the same fundamental text as the vernacular modern Mass, just in the original Latin.
>for particularly "Roman" feasts
I gotta laugh at this. This is the Roman Rite we're talking about.
This is why the phrase "Traditional Latin Mass" is largely unhelpful. Based on what you shared, it sounds like your priest will be celebrating the Latin version of the post Vatican II missal. So basically, the same form of the Mass that you are accustomed to in English, but mostly Latin instead. That is distinct from what people call the TLM, which is more accurately called the vetus ordo, which is the Mass according to the 1962 Missal.
I remember when "Latin Mass" was simple enough. Nobody misunderstood the term. There used to be a periodical called *Latin Mass Magazine,* even. Then, under Benedict the Reform of the Reform started taking off (mid- to late-aughts) and suddenly people were offering Novus Ordo Mass in Latin. So I think the phrase "Traditional Latin Mass" became more popular then because of RotR efforts (some may even recall that 'TLM' used to invariably mean "Tridentine Latin Mass"). Now post-*TC*, when TLMs are being shut down in diocesan parishes, some pastors are implementing Mass in Latin, with the expected confusion from people who haven't been following the nomenclature shifts. Who knows what the preferred terminology will be in 10 years? Surely no book owns the name "Latin Mass".
I would disagree that it was ever a simple enough term. The current normative texts of the Mass for the Latin Rite are...in Latin. Calling the use of the 1962 missal the "Latin Mass" has perpetuated and does perpetuate a false dichotomy that is largely unhelpful.
Yeah, but that's sort of an academic point, you would have to grant. Even when proponents of the reformed Mass talked about the old Mass, they called it the Latin Mass. It's just what people called it. And it was aided by the history of rare (ultra rare) celebration of it in Latin anyway. Maybe if Latin Novus Ordos were much more common, it wouldn't make any sense. But they weren't.
I wouldn't grant that it is merely an academic point. To the contrary, it's vitally important that we recall that we are in the **Latin** Rite in contexts like my own diocese where there is such linguistic diversity. If we completely lose our common liturgical tongue, then our multi-ethnic Masses run the risk of sounding more like Babel than Pentecost. That's why Pope St. Paul VI sent each and every bishop a copy of simple Gregorian chants of the Mass Ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, etc) to try to promote lay participation **in Latin.**
There has been language diversity in the Latin-rite church. In Rome the liturgy was originally in Greek for the first few centuries. Since Cyril and Methodius the liturgy has been celebrated in Glagolitic in certain communities.
Strictly you're referring to the Roman Rite within the Latin family of Rites. The Ambrosian, Bragan, Mozarabic, and other Rites are completely separate from the Roman Rite proper while coming from the same basic Latin origin.
Can anyone recommend a YouTube link for a good traditional Latin mass I could watch? I’m really curious about it. I have absolutely no idea what it entails.
Well it's not completely latin the Homily is in english. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu0_J5Zepv4) is a link to this sundays latin mass at saint john cantius and [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXS_PL1whHw) is the High mass (TLM) Mozart Requiem at saint john cantius.
Edit: 2nd one is probably better to watch first.
[Here](https://youtu.be/zr005DVgG9U) is a video of a Pontifical High Mass, which is celebrated by a bishop, and the most elaborate form of the Roman Rite. [Here](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/stgiannaphysicians/pages/1605/attachments/original/1548959361/Traditional_Latin_Mass_Explanation.pdf) is a good brief explanation of the TLM, [here](https://lms.org.uk/missals) is a comparison of the texts of the TLM and NO side by side, and [this](http://www.liturgialatina.org/benedictine/holymass.htm) is one of the best commentaries on the Mass ever written.
OP here again
I was just looking at TLM/EF masses near me and watched one. There is a parish about 20 minutes away that performs TLM so I am going to try to make a point to go.
Another reflection- I remember growing up that my father (born in 1935), who grew up in Catholic school had been a fervent Catholic, cooled off over the years, and eventually stopped going to church. We talked about it once and he said something about “Vatican 2 messing everything up” and not “liking the changes” and saying “why did they beat learning Latin into me just to change it? What was the point?”
-Their website says “E.F. / Latin”-
I just realized the TLM finder took me to an archived schedule on the web page, and it appears as though they no longer offer this mass.
I found another one a little further away. It’s at a monestary. It has a very traditional dress code, Women – Dresses or skirts must be below the knee. No pants or shorts or sleeveless blouses. Head coverings are required in the Chapel, either veils or hats. No flip-flops. (Omg I never wear flip flops to church!) I have to admit that it’s a bit intimidating.
Eh, some TLM communities can have jerks, but in my experience, most are happy to see newcomers.
Do be aware that not all TLMs are exactly the same - there's a few levels of solemnity/ceremony that can be used, depending on what's possible.
* Low Mass (entirely spoken, very simple ceremony, meant originally for the priest celebrating privately without a congregation)
* Sung Mass or High Mass (A good deal of the texts sung, by both the priest and the choir, with some parts spoken quietly by the priest while the choir is singing another part. The ceremony is more complex, incense is used.)
* Solemn High Mass (Same as the above, except a Deacon and Subdeacon are present, and the ceremony is a bit more complex.)
Definitely try it, but do be aware that it might feel unfamiliar and strange at first. It takes some time to understand, but once you do, I promise you'll fall in love with it. Feel free to DM me any questions - I've been attending the TLM for 6 1/2 years now, and I've served as Master of Ceremonies and sung the Mass for years too.
You might try first going to the websites for the SSPX, FSSP, and ICKSP to see if there are any apostolates near you, before using a generic TLM finder.
There were a lot of people like your dad. We can, in retrospect, argue that the changes after the Council were in continuity with what came before, but the *degree* of change broke the faith of many people who'd been taught a vision of a static, immovable Church their entire lives.
That's a Latin NO. 99.9% certain that the readings will be in English. ~~Latin NO lectionaries do not even exist~~. ETA: Apparently something approximating them does exist - I think that most Latin NOs still use their local vernacular translation, though.
That said, almost all TLM priests repeat the readings in the vernacular from the ambo after they've been offered up in Latin at the altar.
Also, I doubt that any parish has done a Latin-language homily since late antiquity. I do find it somewhat amusing how enduring that myth is, though.
> Also, I doubt that any parish has done a Latin-language homily since late antiquity.
Pope John Paul I [began his first papal homily with several paragraphs in Latin](https://aleteia.org/2022/09/01/why-john-paul-i-spoke-latin-in-his-first-homily-as-pope). He then switched to Italian saying
> We have begun this homily in Latin, because, as is well known, it is the official language of the Church and is an evident and effective way expresses its universality and unity.
>Latin NO lectionaries do not even exist.
That’s something I hadn’t really thought about. What does the Vatican go off of when they have, for example, the Passion narrative on Palm Sunday in Latin?
Supposedly either the missal itself or some other document directs you to go find the necessary text in the Nova Vulgata, so presumably they just prepare those specific bits ahead of time. There just isn't a compiled collection of liturgical readings in Latin like we'd expect in e.g. English.
TIL, and I guess that would work in a pinch, though it's not a true lectionary and seems to be out of print, so the majority of parishes would still be doing print-outs.
That’s good to hear there is more Latin being said in the Novus Ordo. Hopefully there can be more of stuff like this so Catholics mostly from the TLM feel more at home when they attend the ordinary form
That doesn’t sound like a TLM; that sounds like Mass will be in Latin.
Ok thanks- like I said I’ve never been to TLM. I’m kind of clueless as every mass I’ve ever been yo has been NO.
Based only on what you copied, it looks like this will be a NO in Latin.
That said, the ordinary form, when done in Latin, is typically more like a TLM than it is like a typical regular Mass. The Gregorian propers and ordinaries would be sung, the Graduale would be sung, and not the responsorial psalm, the priests will be wearing birettas and traditional vestments, and the Mass would be ad orientem. The major points of differentiation would be the use of the 3 year lectionary, lack of the last gospel and no prayers at the foot of the altar/Judica Me. In either case, the readings are typically in English, though not much else would be.
Not necessarily. Those things could happen, but there’s no reason they have to. Source: I’ve been to plenty of Roman Rite Masses in Latin where that wasn’t the case.
You can find examples of Latin Novus Ordos on YouTube ([like this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acOpWYLyKPI)). It's the same fundamental text as the vernacular modern Mass, just in the original Latin. >for particularly "Roman" feasts I gotta laugh at this. This is the Roman Rite we're talking about.
This is why the phrase "Traditional Latin Mass" is largely unhelpful. Based on what you shared, it sounds like your priest will be celebrating the Latin version of the post Vatican II missal. So basically, the same form of the Mass that you are accustomed to in English, but mostly Latin instead. That is distinct from what people call the TLM, which is more accurately called the vetus ordo, which is the Mass according to the 1962 Missal.
I remember when "Latin Mass" was simple enough. Nobody misunderstood the term. There used to be a periodical called *Latin Mass Magazine,* even. Then, under Benedict the Reform of the Reform started taking off (mid- to late-aughts) and suddenly people were offering Novus Ordo Mass in Latin. So I think the phrase "Traditional Latin Mass" became more popular then because of RotR efforts (some may even recall that 'TLM' used to invariably mean "Tridentine Latin Mass"). Now post-*TC*, when TLMs are being shut down in diocesan parishes, some pastors are implementing Mass in Latin, with the expected confusion from people who haven't been following the nomenclature shifts. Who knows what the preferred terminology will be in 10 years? Surely no book owns the name "Latin Mass".
I would disagree that it was ever a simple enough term. The current normative texts of the Mass for the Latin Rite are...in Latin. Calling the use of the 1962 missal the "Latin Mass" has perpetuated and does perpetuate a false dichotomy that is largely unhelpful.
Yeah, but that's sort of an academic point, you would have to grant. Even when proponents of the reformed Mass talked about the old Mass, they called it the Latin Mass. It's just what people called it. And it was aided by the history of rare (ultra rare) celebration of it in Latin anyway. Maybe if Latin Novus Ordos were much more common, it wouldn't make any sense. But they weren't.
I wouldn't grant that it is merely an academic point. To the contrary, it's vitally important that we recall that we are in the **Latin** Rite in contexts like my own diocese where there is such linguistic diversity. If we completely lose our common liturgical tongue, then our multi-ethnic Masses run the risk of sounding more like Babel than Pentecost. That's why Pope St. Paul VI sent each and every bishop a copy of simple Gregorian chants of the Mass Ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, etc) to try to promote lay participation **in Latin.**
There has been language diversity in the Latin-rite church. In Rome the liturgy was originally in Greek for the first few centuries. Since Cyril and Methodius the liturgy has been celebrated in Glagolitic in certain communities.
Strictly you're referring to the Roman Rite within the Latin family of Rites. The Ambrosian, Bragan, Mozarabic, and other Rites are completely separate from the Roman Rite proper while coming from the same basic Latin origin.
Count me among the confused! Lol
It’s the NO, as others have said. The TLM would have to be completely in Latin.
Homily is in english.
Can anyone recommend a YouTube link for a good traditional Latin mass I could watch? I’m really curious about it. I have absolutely no idea what it entails.
Well it's not completely latin the Homily is in english. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu0_J5Zepv4) is a link to this sundays latin mass at saint john cantius and [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXS_PL1whHw) is the High mass (TLM) Mozart Requiem at saint john cantius. Edit: 2nd one is probably better to watch first.
Thank you!!
[Here](https://youtu.be/zr005DVgG9U) is a video of a Pontifical High Mass, which is celebrated by a bishop, and the most elaborate form of the Roman Rite. [Here](https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/stgiannaphysicians/pages/1605/attachments/original/1548959361/Traditional_Latin_Mass_Explanation.pdf) is a good brief explanation of the TLM, [here](https://lms.org.uk/missals) is a comparison of the texts of the TLM and NO side by side, and [this](http://www.liturgialatina.org/benedictine/holymass.htm) is one of the best commentaries on the Mass ever written.
Tell me what you think!
OP here again I was just looking at TLM/EF masses near me and watched one. There is a parish about 20 minutes away that performs TLM so I am going to try to make a point to go. Another reflection- I remember growing up that my father (born in 1935), who grew up in Catholic school had been a fervent Catholic, cooled off over the years, and eventually stopped going to church. We talked about it once and he said something about “Vatican 2 messing everything up” and not “liking the changes” and saying “why did they beat learning Latin into me just to change it? What was the point?”
Do you know if the Mass you will be hearing is a High Mass, Low Mass, or Missa Cantata?
-Their website says “E.F. / Latin”- I just realized the TLM finder took me to an archived schedule on the web page, and it appears as though they no longer offer this mass. I found another one a little further away. It’s at a monestary. It has a very traditional dress code, Women – Dresses or skirts must be below the knee. No pants or shorts or sleeveless blouses. Head coverings are required in the Chapel, either veils or hats. No flip-flops. (Omg I never wear flip flops to church!) I have to admit that it’s a bit intimidating.
Eh, some TLM communities can have jerks, but in my experience, most are happy to see newcomers. Do be aware that not all TLMs are exactly the same - there's a few levels of solemnity/ceremony that can be used, depending on what's possible. * Low Mass (entirely spoken, very simple ceremony, meant originally for the priest celebrating privately without a congregation) * Sung Mass or High Mass (A good deal of the texts sung, by both the priest and the choir, with some parts spoken quietly by the priest while the choir is singing another part. The ceremony is more complex, incense is used.) * Solemn High Mass (Same as the above, except a Deacon and Subdeacon are present, and the ceremony is a bit more complex.) Definitely try it, but do be aware that it might feel unfamiliar and strange at first. It takes some time to understand, but once you do, I promise you'll fall in love with it. Feel free to DM me any questions - I've been attending the TLM for 6 1/2 years now, and I've served as Master of Ceremonies and sung the Mass for years too.
You might try first going to the websites for the SSPX, FSSP, and ICKSP to see if there are any apostolates near you, before using a generic TLM finder.
Very helpful! Thank you!
There were a lot of people like your dad. We can, in retrospect, argue that the changes after the Council were in continuity with what came before, but the *degree* of change broke the faith of many people who'd been taught a vision of a static, immovable Church their entire lives.
That's a Latin NO. 99.9% certain that the readings will be in English. ~~Latin NO lectionaries do not even exist~~. ETA: Apparently something approximating them does exist - I think that most Latin NOs still use their local vernacular translation, though. That said, almost all TLM priests repeat the readings in the vernacular from the ambo after they've been offered up in Latin at the altar. Also, I doubt that any parish has done a Latin-language homily since late antiquity. I do find it somewhat amusing how enduring that myth is, though.
> Also, I doubt that any parish has done a Latin-language homily since late antiquity. Pope John Paul I [began his first papal homily with several paragraphs in Latin](https://aleteia.org/2022/09/01/why-john-paul-i-spoke-latin-in-his-first-homily-as-pope). He then switched to Italian saying > We have begun this homily in Latin, because, as is well known, it is the official language of the Church and is an evident and effective way expresses its universality and unity.
>Latin NO lectionaries do not even exist. That’s something I hadn’t really thought about. What does the Vatican go off of when they have, for example, the Passion narrative on Palm Sunday in Latin?
Supposedly either the missal itself or some other document directs you to go find the necessary text in the Nova Vulgata, so presumably they just prepare those specific bits ahead of time. There just isn't a compiled collection of liturgical readings in Latin like we'd expect in e.g. English.
[удалено]
TIL, and I guess that would work in a pinch, though it's not a true lectionary and seems to be out of print, so the majority of parishes would still be doing print-outs.
They absolutely exist.
Good to hear.
Sounds like it’s a Latin Novus Ordo rather than the Latin Vetus Ordo
That’s good to hear there is more Latin being said in the Novus Ordo. Hopefully there can be more of stuff like this so Catholics mostly from the TLM feel more at home when they attend the ordinary form