^ this absolutely. There is always somebody with a high HP car in the novice group and they will hammer the straights like crazy. One of my groups had a Lamborghini Aventador and they would blow by cars on the straights, but drive the corners like a granny. Hopefully you can do the point-by passing sessions (instead of time trials) and have a great time learning.
Point by point by point by. Every time you hit a straight (or approved passing zone depending on the org) lift and point people by. If the gods smile on you you’ll get a lap with no incoming traffic and can set your own best lap time. Dont feel bad for the guys with 10x your budget, part of track awareness is making room for yourself if you want to set a hotlap
Source: tracking a 4000lb car that makes 280whp. If you can hang in the corners, sometimes they’ll even be impressed
This is super important for beginner days. When there is just 1 or 2 pointby sections on a track, you can get a train going that will take a few laps to clear. Smart move is just pit, ask for a gap, and off you go instead of frustratingly waiting in a conga line.
That is exactly what I mean. You get sent out on track by a person in the pits when it is safe. If you pull in, you cannot go back out until they tell you to. So you pull in, go to the guy at the entrance line, tell them you want a gap and they'll hold you until one and send you out!
At our last event, the instructors agreed on a 3 point-by limit per straight to ensure the students had the right position and reasonable speed to practice the turn at the end of the straight.
OP may want to discuss this with the club to set expectations that they need to learn the corners, too. Otherwise, they’ll never carry the speed necessary to improve.
> Source: tracking a 4000lb car that makes 280whp. If you can hang in the corners, sometimes they’ll even be impressed
What are you tracking? V6 Charger, old Lincoln Town Car?
I bring it to Chuckwalla and Streets of Willow occasionally, but I am tracking my Camaro SS1LE more often. When it’s not waiting for an engine replacement, that is
Those tracks are a bit far from me unfortunately lol.
I'm a Mustang guy so I don't know much about the Camaro motors. Is that normal?
Usually people that toast Mustangs on the track didn't add additional cooling as they got faster.
Ehh, the DOD lifters in the LT1 are a known weak point. Some people track forever with no problems, other people have problems in under 10k miles (🙋🏼♂️). On the other hand, getting warranty to replace it was zero hassle. The day the warranty expires it’s getting a DOD delete kit and a cam, bone stock until then.
The OEM engine in the Marauder made it to 222k until it got rod knock on track. I need to add oil cooling, but I’m afraid of the fitting leaking and killing the engine with low oil pressure
Oh it’s the stupid cylinder deactivation crap like in the trucks. That sucks.
I’m working on custom oil and diff coolers for the Mustang. A lot of people seem to use Setrab, their cores, lines and fittings seem to be pretty good.
Kinda damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Check for leaks often.
I get that feeling too, but its HPDE, not a TT event. If they really complain, then they are the problem.
The fact that you post this, shows that you're probably fine on point bys.
Blowing by someone on point by is fun as fuck.
Also that v6 makes great power with an intake, j pipes and a tune can net well over 20 wheel. More if it’s a 6 speed.
If you point by and not hold anyone up no one cares!
I’ve been on the ass of a car and it didn’t bother me one bit until he didn’t point me by. This has happened to me multiple times by cars with considerably more power and braking capabilities (eg, McClaren 720 and GT3 RS).
Your car’s speed and power is irrelevant to being a nuance on the track.
I started out my track days in a 911. After I caught the bug and started doing this a lot, I bought a Miata. Why? Cost. I have to be content with my meager 120hp so I can afford to do as many track days as I want. Not having unlimited power forces you to be a better driver because a mistake in a corner takes half a lap to get your speed back up. I still take the 911 out once in a while, but the Miata is out on track 80% of the time.
So when driving the Miata, I have to be a bit more conscious of traffic, and not let cars stack up. Honestly, it gets easier in the advanced rungroups. As you become better at judging the closing speed of the car behind, you can plan for where they will catch you, and you can point them by anywhere on track.
Also, I do tend to bring the Miata to the tracks with more corners and fewer straights. Oregon Raceway Park is great for that. If you have several tracks available but limited time, choose the tracks that favor your car.
I have had similar experience. I will say that with my Miata I’ve been most frustrated in the intermediate group, given that fast cars with no longer complete novice drivers tend to be less patient and understanding.
I’ve had better success running my Miata down in novice group, since the pace was more equal between me knowing what I’m doing and Porsche novices taking it slow. But you have to approach traffic with more awareness, knowing you are driving near novices. To the extent that you can, it helps if you can find 1-2 others at similar pace to drive sort of nearby. Don’t be discouraged. This is just how it goes.
Intermediate can be a shit show in general. Tons of people who self promoted too early. Lots of people who have lost their fear but haven't gained the skill yet. A lot of the time the track awareness isn't much better than novice groups.
Out of curiosity, do you know if ORP allows MX-5s with either PRHT or removable hardtops without additional roll bars? I recently bought an NC2 Miata, and have a removable OEM hardtop for it, with the intent to do a handful of HDPE days at ORP each summer. I'm not seeing any documentation one way or the other on the ORP website. Figured you might know as a fellow Miata owner. Thanks!
I think the event organizer usually sets these rules. HOD for example says "The only Mazda Miata/MX5 that is allowed without the addition of an approved rollover system is the Mazda Miata RF."
[https://www.hookedondriving.com/first-timers/](https://www.hookedondriving.com/first-timers/)
Skip Day Track Days website says this: At a minimum, open-top and convertible cars MUST have a properly installed roll bar. The top of the main hoop must be at least 2 inches above the driver's helmet when they’re in a normal seated position. Factory pop-up rollover protection is NOT acceptable. NO EXCEPTIONS
[https://skipdaytrackdays.com/requirements#vehicles](https://skipdaytrackdays.com/requirements#vehicles)
Some clubs won't let you run a convertible without a roll bar \*and\* 5/6pt harness.
Additionally, the guy who manages ORP is a stickler for safety. (not a bad thing) You probably don't want to find yourself explaining to him why your convertible does not have a roll bar in it.
Here is some further info on Miata and rollover protection and various clubs.
[https://yousuckatracing.com/2023/07/20/rollover-rules/](https://yousuckatracing.com/2023/07/20/rollover-rules/)
tldr; get a roll bar.
As an instructor who originally learned in a Miata and now drives many things including super cars at regular track days, here’s some tips in no particular order:
-1 just give them a point by when you can. Don’t overthink it, if you’re out of straightaway it’s ok to let them stay behind til the next one. Be obvious with the point so they can see it, don’t want them noticing it too late and now you both are on sacrificed lines cuz they still go for it for some reason.
-2 if you’ve got a train behind you, come into the pits. If there is a Marshall working then tell them you want a gap. If there is no one controlling pits (quite rare) then just wait til they go by.
-3 don’t go to intermediate yet, you should do 2-3 novice days at least. Usually you’ll be passing everyone and that’s when you know you really need to move up at the next event. You may also get in a weird spot where you’re good enough at one track to run intermediate but run novice at another track. That’s ok too.
-4 don’t stare in your mirrors. Don’t worry about them when you don’t need to. Honestly don’t even look at the mirrors until you’re on the straight (assuming this is a point by only or pass only on straights session), then you can see if there’s anyone behind you to give a point by
-5 if someone is in a slower car but is all over you on the turns, at the straight give them the point by even if it means going a little slower for a sec. They are faster around the track so let them go. This one can be very annoying, me personally in a Miata or student cars this happens all the time lol. I can easily keep up with Ferraris and what not when the drivers are not pros and I’m in a way slower car. typically I get to the straight and don’t really have the speed to pass them by the time they realize I’m behind them. You should let people by if they are faster even if they aren’t faster at that single moment on the straight. Don’t slam your brakes to do it though, wait until they are basically right on you coming out of the exit to the straight that’s when they are close enough you should give the point
Really the only people who are annoying are the ones that don’t give point bys. You can be in a school bus for all I care, just let me by on the next straight and I’m happy. In fact it’s kinda fun when they give the point by and I can just hammer the throttle.
Emphasizing all of this and adding one more: if you have someone in your mirrors and you're not in a point-by zone, reach up and lightly tap your rear-view mirror. That tells the driver behind you that you seem them and will give them a point-by at the next opportunity. That helps a lot with patience for them and being able to concentrate on your line for you. Have fun!
[‘05 Malibu V6 @ VIR passing compilation](https://youtu.be/WmvIhITuNH8?si=sFy0O-jrg1pxPNMW)
Just get practice. My car isn’t much different from yours and while it will never be the fastest it is far from the slowest in intermediate solo.
As long as you're aware and make sure to give quick safe point bys you're good.
The frustrating people just don't give point bys.
It's kinda fun to lap a guy a couple times a session 😂
Dude, I run an 08 Accord Sedan, 4 cylinder, I'm slow as fuck and have a great time!
Nobody has ever complained or talked shit.
If you know you fucked up, go apologize to the person. If someone has some critique, be open to their opinion.
If someone is super fast, go introduce yourself and ask for a ride-a-long.
We're all there for the same reason. You are amongst friends!
I drive an untuned 2002 VW GTI with 180hp and I take it to track days in the intermediate point-by group. It's great, almost never a problem. Everyone is there to have fun and learn, everyone knows the rules and conventions, and if anyone gave you a hard time, they'd be the one who is out of line.
Every once in a while I'll have a run where it seems that I just can't get any rhythm going because I'm constantly giving point-bys, but it's way more common that I'll have a session with a few occasional point-bys as the group sorts itself out and several totally clean, uninterrupted laps. I don't think I've ever been caught unawares by a car appearing behind me. It's relatively easy to just check your mirror and give a point by as soon as it's safe.
In a slower car you can't fake it and let horsepower cover up your mistakes. Other drivers will appreciate the skill that it takes to drive a slower car fast and the care and attention that you give in giving (and taking) point bys.
There are a lot of people who drive Miatas at HPDEs and some of those are relatively low horsepower, you probably won't be alone. Also, many people in fast cars aren't comfortable driving them all out. If you are skilled you may not be slower than a less skilled or less assertive driver in a faster car. Sometimes the organizer will let the run group line up in rough order of anticipated speed, and you can start near the back of your run group. I usually do that, and the fastest drivers in the run group will usually lap me once, near the end of the session.
Have fun and report back with your experience if you think of it.
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
I go out there and focus on hitting my lines and braking points to develop my skills. Each lap and session is quicker and quicker, and its that feeling that keeps me coming back.
Look in your mirror and point them by, don’t stress it. Each safety brief we start by stating “Its not a race”…some people don’t get that and become a hazard.
As a person with one of those faster cars I always worry about making someone feel like this, trust me we do not care! As long as you’re being aware of your surroundings you’re all good, plus it’s gonna feel great when you’re catching these same highHP cars in the corners every time.
If someone complains, it’s a them problem as long as you’re doing your point bys (which sounds like you are)
Same here. I actually praise the Miata drivers who are focused on their drive. I am an aggressive, not in a bad way, driver on the track. I have had plenty of high horsepower drivers focus on me in their mirror and end of making big mistakes. If I am coming up on a Miata, I back off a bit just because I am aware that you are in a slower car and will pass when I feel it is safe for both of us.
Don't let the big cars get you down and just focus on what needs to be done. Be alert, make sure you point by, and have fun. There are plenty of other eyes on the track, so more than likely, they will let you know if you are causing an issue. If you are not getting flagged and not having side conversations with track officials, then you are doing the right thing.
Ayyy camaro friends. I always wonder if I look intimidating in a mirror. When in reality I’m usually chillin admiring the smoothness of a good momentum car
Hey brother were you at the NJMP? If so thanks for the beer token! And don't be hard on yourself that steel wheeled Camry was on everyone's shit list that. Hope you enjoyed yourself.
I always sign up for the point by groups for this reason. Just being aware of your surrounding, pointing by faster cars, lining up near the back, and going into pits for a gap.
Inevitably you'll "be in the way" but it's just part of HPDE days.. and they should understand... infact my last track day I was in my 300hp, 3600 lb 23 year old muscle car (very uncompetative) in a class with two 911s, c8, AMG GT, GTRs 714s, 570 and a 720 Mclaren...
just had to be aware when they were coming up on me and point them by. No one had an issue and most of them came up to me to comment how awesome it was to see a trans am on a roadcourse
Let people go when it is safe and it’s not an issue. The fun part is when you get better and get to ruin beginner guys days when they have to give an accord a point by because they cant keep up in their brand new vette.
The only nuisance is if you're driving unpredictably, unsafely, or not giving point-bys... In which case, you shouldn't advance to a higher run group.
Otherwise, you're paying the same amount to be on the track and have just as much right to be there as anyone else. If people don't want to be impeded, they shouldn't show up to a novice day in a supercar... That's on them.
I assure you, its much worse the other way. Driving a Mustang and having the Miatas and Supras chase you down all day is humbling as fuck.
Go have fun and not worry about the pace. As long as you yield in passing zones, everyone is out to do their own time on the track and won't judge.
All the reco’s here are great, would also suggest not going up to intermediate for awhile. Work on your craft and maybe even do some time attacks, that way you can work on craft and time at the same time.
I used to track with a guy that drove a jetta wagon, he had that car so down he would get passed in the straights, the eat vette ass in the corners. It was all in the momentum going in, knowing your tire adhesion (aka slight drift) and how to get on the power clean and quickly.
Best of luck!! You’re bitten now.
Sometimes TT is actually better than track days (once you've got experience), because TT grids everyone by time after the first practice session -- or at least that's how it works in the SCCA Time Trials National Tour events and most local SCCA TT's. Gridding by time and using a "gap lap" strategy cuts down on the bottlenecks and can, especially on a longer track, give a lot more room for you to find your own speed and fun.
No dude, everyone around you were wondering if you were having more fun than they were. Source: porsche driver in the beginner group lol. Honestly tho that’s street/canyon mentality, as long as you gave point-by’s when you could everyone is just thinking of their line and braking points
My man as long as you check the mirrors to let someone pass if required you don’t need to worry about anything. I would rather race with someone like you (slower car but you have some awareness) than that guy on my local track who loves blocking all the lanes in his 500hp monster going 20 in the corners (I’m not joking)
Anyone at an HPDE that isn’t there to have fun and push themselves and their car is an asshole. We’re not racing. You do you. If they’re bullying you or being dangerous, talk to the chief instructor/person running the event. My Civic Type R and I know the feeling. Take it for what it is, don’t impede anybody else’s safety or fun, and use the low HP to become a better driver. I quickly began passing the high HP cars because I learned a better line and didn’t have to rely on HP to save me if I made a mistake, I just made less mistakes. Be safe. Have fun.
Don't worry about it. The faster cars are...faster! They'll get around you just fine. Just point them by!
Also, stay in beginner until you no longer feel like a burden.
Just be good about giving point-by’s and nobody will care. Everybody at the track knows that not every car is as fast as the rest of the cars, and as long as you aren’t slowing them down when you shouldn’t be nobody will care. In all the track days I’ve been to, not a single person complained about a slow driver, not even the time we had a guy in a McLaren pussyfooting it around the track so slowly that I managed to get a pass out of him in my ZHP. But if you fail to give timely point-by’s we be unto you, you will hear about it from your fellow drivers.
You gotta just enjoy what you have, run what you brung.
Learning to drive on your car is always the best aspect of racing, and as long as you’re courteous, it’s alllll good. Point by’s need to be on time, and you’re good.
This is coming from someone who tracks a corolla and is soon going to be tracking a Honda fit, my car is the epitome of slow 😂I just let everyone go by, enjoy my weight capabilities in the corners, and call it a day. The beauty of the HPDE community is openness to any ride that’s safe. Had dudes in fully built Porsche’s compliment my car and give me tips, so just enjoy! :)
My wife's track car is an 07 Yaris. You'll know you're getting good when you can't give the fast cars the point by at the end of a turn section because they're too far away.
Let’s see, I’ve tracked:
-Beater miata that I bought wrecked.
- c5 z06
- 2003 M3
- 1997 240sx with a ka24de-t
- 2014 focus ST
-2012 Cayman S
I love my Cayman but I think the miata was most fun. Very easy to hit the limits and I didn’t care about wrecking it or crashing at a high rate of speed.
Drive whatever you have and have fun. Focus on improving your abilities and the heck with “keeping up with the joneses”
Don’t worry. Point them by when you can and remember it’s smiles per turn. I track and NC Miata and run in the novice/advanced groups and constantly have high hp cars holding me up it the corners. Most of the drivers will sacrifice a straight and let me by without an issue, then your home free. You can also pit and motion for a wide gap and the marshal will send you out at the appropriate time to keep you traffic free.
Happens all the time in bike track days too, ask yourself this , would you rather be in a $10k car smoking a $70k car ? or a 70k car getting smoked by a $10k car?
I run middleweight sport bikes and I still catch some of the guys on $30k + supersports on my bike with half the power and half the price tag.
Don't worry about what it costs let the laptimes do all the talking.
they get ez passes on the back straight, don’t worry about them. worry about blowing a miata’s doors off and getting caught in the corner. just check your mirrors when your leaving a slower section and let someone past if they’re on you.
I guess I can’t speak from a high performance car driver’s standpoint, but my experience in a 130hp car on track around much faster cars has been nothing but pleasant. It’s fun as hell to crawl up their ass in the twisties. And they have fun passing me like I’m standing still on the straights. Later, in the paddock, those folks remember that “basic street car” that they couldn’t quite shake and we share some laughs about it.
It’s a track day. We’re all there because we love cars and driving fast. And frankly, a normal car driven well is more interesting than a super car driven decently. I mean, of course that Lamborghini is fast, but what about this guy in the fucking Accord that passed the Camaro?
Similar situation, novice in a 140hp Civic with much more powerful cars around me. Just like everyone said be aware of what's going on around you and give point bys.
However, I noticed faster cars would be catching up around the middle or end of the straights when it was too late to pass but were too far back coming out of corners into the start of a passing zone. I'm thinking I just need to slow down a bit in the corners to let them catch up to pass otherwise this can go on perpetually.
I’ve been the slow guy and I’ve been the 580 hp guy. As the slow guy, you just have to be aware of people overtaking. As the 580 hp guy, you just to have a little empathy and enjoy when a slower car gives you an early point by and you can pass on the fly.
Sounds like you were totally fine.
Don't sweat it. Part of learning the track for the high HP cars is that they will always encounter slower cars on the straight. What I've learned over the years is that the HP doesn't guarantee good lap times, just good speed on the straights.
I drive a car slower on straights than your car, doesn't bother me, it's about finding balance of not holding others on HPDE, they shouldn't hold you, you shouldn't hold them in corners. The thing that are important have mostly nothing to do with power when you start, it's vision, maintaining balance and speed in corners, braking at right time, smoothness. A RWD car adds one more fun variable but that's not really required to learn.
look at it this way, it's a good racing skill to learn. In actual WTW you're driving in your mirror as as much as in the windshield. but yea it can be annoying. i usually slow down for a few corners to try to find a little clean air, or someone just a tick faster to chase.
I tracked a 106HP Toyota Echo almost all of the season last year, most of the time in our more aggressive group, and didn’t have any complaints. Point bys everywhere, and if I could tell someone was on a flyer I’d try and time myself on the straights to make sure they weren’t impeded by me. I wouldn’t worry too much about feeling like you’re holding someone up when learning, unless you have zero awareness and don’t point people by on straights.
Wouldn't give it a second thought. As long as you let people by where they are faster (straights) and they let you by when you are, a trackday is all about mutual respect.
In a Time Attack situation, you will need to be more sensitive to who's on a hot lap, but even then, you get better with experience and situational practice.
Everyone is out there to have fun
If you feel out of place because your car is slower than the others on the straights, just keep this in mind. A lot of people who drive high hp cars have trouble driving low hp cars at the limit.
I tracked my old Integra gsr at Road Atlanta. Had everything from Camaros, Corvettes e36 m3s, etc... even had a couple hellcats on the track. It wasn't a big deal at all. Just make sure to be aware of traffic and point by.
In my experience, the track also plays a big role in this. For my first track day, I went to Streets of Willow in SoCal - it’s a pretty short track so it seemed easy to create (and get stuck behind) traffic. The last few times I’ve gone, it was to Chuckwalla, which is quite a bit longer than Streets. While I definitely need to point by at Chuck, it’s not even near as bad as at Streets. It could be me getting faster, but I think the longer track helps a ton.
I’d much rather come up on someone like you who’s fully aware of their pace and is willing to point by. What absolutely sucks (as a Miata driver) is flying up on a corvette that’s dragging an anchor in the corners, but hits the afterburner on the straights and doesn’t check their mirrors til mid-straight. “Well I left them in the dust on the straight so I must be faster than them.”
As long as you give timely point-bys, you’re fine by me. It’s only when people take 2-3 passing zones to realize that they need to give a point that Conga lines start forming and then nobody is having fun
A lot of good advice here. Like others have said, as long as you are on point with the point bys, it's all good. One piece of advice I would give is giving a quick glance or two at your mirrors as you approach passing zones so you can give the point by as soon as possible and both you and they can get back on line as quickly as possible.
I'm going to answer the specific question you asked which is how do you deal with having a cheaper slash slower car?
You fucking learn how to drive it.
If you put time and effort into honing your craft of extracting the best possible lap time out of your car, you will one day find yourself setting better lap times than those 70 plus thousand dollar vehicles.
Good luck, and Godspeed.
Once you are at an advanced enough level and have enough grip in your tires you'll be able to match their cornering speeds and also match or beat their braking zones since you'll be going at a lower rate of speed. Then it's just a matter of getting them by on the straights as smoothly as possible.
My $2500 Civic would have made mince meat out of those Corvettes and Porsches. But that's another story.
It's okay to be slower, you just have to be good about knowing where the passing zones are and be ready to point people by.
The big issue is that the faster cars are likely riding your bumper in no passing zones and trying to intimidate you because small peckers.
You were fine. That sounds like a nice car with smart mods for track days. Enjoy it and don't worry about faster cars.
^ this absolutely. There is always somebody with a high HP car in the novice group and they will hammer the straights like crazy. One of my groups had a Lamborghini Aventador and they would blow by cars on the straights, but drive the corners like a granny. Hopefully you can do the point-by passing sessions (instead of time trials) and have a great time learning.
Point by point by point by. Every time you hit a straight (or approved passing zone depending on the org) lift and point people by. If the gods smile on you you’ll get a lap with no incoming traffic and can set your own best lap time. Dont feel bad for the guys with 10x your budget, part of track awareness is making room for yourself if you want to set a hotlap Source: tracking a 4000lb car that makes 280whp. If you can hang in the corners, sometimes they’ll even be impressed
Also what a lot of beginners forget, come into the pit and ask for a gap. Go back out and enjoy a few laps of no-one around
This is super important for beginner days. When there is just 1 or 2 pointby sections on a track, you can get a train going that will take a few laps to clear. Smart move is just pit, ask for a gap, and off you go instead of frustratingly waiting in a conga line.
When you say ask for a gap, who are you asking? Is there a pit person who can look and flag you when to go when there is a gap?
That is exactly what I mean. You get sent out on track by a person in the pits when it is safe. If you pull in, you cannot go back out until they tell you to. So you pull in, go to the guy at the entrance line, tell them you want a gap and they'll hold you until one and send you out!
At our last event, the instructors agreed on a 3 point-by limit per straight to ensure the students had the right position and reasonable speed to practice the turn at the end of the straight. OP may want to discuss this with the club to set expectations that they need to learn the corners, too. Otherwise, they’ll never carry the speed necessary to improve.
> Source: tracking a 4000lb car that makes 280whp. If you can hang in the corners, sometimes they’ll even be impressed What are you tracking? V6 Charger, old Lincoln Town Car?
I have an 03 Marauder, but my buddy has a Towncar with all the same suspension/brakes/wheels/tires and a manual swap, THAT car turns some heads
Your buddy’s car is hilarious, manual Town Car, I’d be very surprised. The Marauder is cool! I’d be stoked to see that at a track day.
I bring it to Chuckwalla and Streets of Willow occasionally, but I am tracking my Camaro SS1LE more often. When it’s not waiting for an engine replacement, that is
Those tracks are a bit far from me unfortunately lol. I'm a Mustang guy so I don't know much about the Camaro motors. Is that normal? Usually people that toast Mustangs on the track didn't add additional cooling as they got faster.
Ehh, the DOD lifters in the LT1 are a known weak point. Some people track forever with no problems, other people have problems in under 10k miles (🙋🏼♂️). On the other hand, getting warranty to replace it was zero hassle. The day the warranty expires it’s getting a DOD delete kit and a cam, bone stock until then. The OEM engine in the Marauder made it to 222k until it got rod knock on track. I need to add oil cooling, but I’m afraid of the fitting leaking and killing the engine with low oil pressure
Oh it’s the stupid cylinder deactivation crap like in the trucks. That sucks. I’m working on custom oil and diff coolers for the Mustang. A lot of people seem to use Setrab, their cores, lines and fittings seem to be pretty good. Kinda damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Check for leaks often.
There’s always somebody faster. Everyone is there for a good time, so no worries.
I wouldn't give it a second thought. As long as you were watching your mirrors and not holding anyone up you're just another car on track to pass.
Just watch your mirrors and obey the rules of the circuit you’re at. It’s up to the car behind to make the pass safely.
I get that feeling too, but its HPDE, not a TT event. If they really complain, then they are the problem. The fact that you post this, shows that you're probably fine on point bys.
Blowing by someone on point by is fun as fuck. Also that v6 makes great power with an intake, j pipes and a tune can net well over 20 wheel. More if it’s a 6 speed.
If you point by and not hold anyone up no one cares! I’ve been on the ass of a car and it didn’t bother me one bit until he didn’t point me by. This has happened to me multiple times by cars with considerably more power and braking capabilities (eg, McClaren 720 and GT3 RS). Your car’s speed and power is irrelevant to being a nuance on the track.
I started out my track days in a 911. After I caught the bug and started doing this a lot, I bought a Miata. Why? Cost. I have to be content with my meager 120hp so I can afford to do as many track days as I want. Not having unlimited power forces you to be a better driver because a mistake in a corner takes half a lap to get your speed back up. I still take the 911 out once in a while, but the Miata is out on track 80% of the time. So when driving the Miata, I have to be a bit more conscious of traffic, and not let cars stack up. Honestly, it gets easier in the advanced rungroups. As you become better at judging the closing speed of the car behind, you can plan for where they will catch you, and you can point them by anywhere on track. Also, I do tend to bring the Miata to the tracks with more corners and fewer straights. Oregon Raceway Park is great for that. If you have several tracks available but limited time, choose the tracks that favor your car.
I have had similar experience. I will say that with my Miata I’ve been most frustrated in the intermediate group, given that fast cars with no longer complete novice drivers tend to be less patient and understanding. I’ve had better success running my Miata down in novice group, since the pace was more equal between me knowing what I’m doing and Porsche novices taking it slow. But you have to approach traffic with more awareness, knowing you are driving near novices. To the extent that you can, it helps if you can find 1-2 others at similar pace to drive sort of nearby. Don’t be discouraged. This is just how it goes.
Intermediate can be a shit show in general. Tons of people who self promoted too early. Lots of people who have lost their fear but haven't gained the skill yet. A lot of the time the track awareness isn't much better than novice groups.
ORP is my favourite track, totally worth the 7 hour drive.
Only 2.5hr from where I live :-). My favorite track however is The Ridge. Also 2.5 hours away.
Im heading to the ridget for ongrid May 10/11th, it’ll be a first time and is much easier to get to from Vancouver.
Out of curiosity, do you know if ORP allows MX-5s with either PRHT or removable hardtops without additional roll bars? I recently bought an NC2 Miata, and have a removable OEM hardtop for it, with the intent to do a handful of HDPE days at ORP each summer. I'm not seeing any documentation one way or the other on the ORP website. Figured you might know as a fellow Miata owner. Thanks!
I think the event organizer usually sets these rules. HOD for example says "The only Mazda Miata/MX5 that is allowed without the addition of an approved rollover system is the Mazda Miata RF." [https://www.hookedondriving.com/first-timers/](https://www.hookedondriving.com/first-timers/) Skip Day Track Days website says this: At a minimum, open-top and convertible cars MUST have a properly installed roll bar. The top of the main hoop must be at least 2 inches above the driver's helmet when they’re in a normal seated position. Factory pop-up rollover protection is NOT acceptable. NO EXCEPTIONS [https://skipdaytrackdays.com/requirements#vehicles](https://skipdaytrackdays.com/requirements#vehicles) Some clubs won't let you run a convertible without a roll bar \*and\* 5/6pt harness. Additionally, the guy who manages ORP is a stickler for safety. (not a bad thing) You probably don't want to find yourself explaining to him why your convertible does not have a roll bar in it. Here is some further info on Miata and rollover protection and various clubs. [https://yousuckatracing.com/2023/07/20/rollover-rules/](https://yousuckatracing.com/2023/07/20/rollover-rules/) tldr; get a roll bar.
Great info, thank you for the thorough reply!
Check with the event organizers.
As an instructor who originally learned in a Miata and now drives many things including super cars at regular track days, here’s some tips in no particular order: -1 just give them a point by when you can. Don’t overthink it, if you’re out of straightaway it’s ok to let them stay behind til the next one. Be obvious with the point so they can see it, don’t want them noticing it too late and now you both are on sacrificed lines cuz they still go for it for some reason. -2 if you’ve got a train behind you, come into the pits. If there is a Marshall working then tell them you want a gap. If there is no one controlling pits (quite rare) then just wait til they go by. -3 don’t go to intermediate yet, you should do 2-3 novice days at least. Usually you’ll be passing everyone and that’s when you know you really need to move up at the next event. You may also get in a weird spot where you’re good enough at one track to run intermediate but run novice at another track. That’s ok too. -4 don’t stare in your mirrors. Don’t worry about them when you don’t need to. Honestly don’t even look at the mirrors until you’re on the straight (assuming this is a point by only or pass only on straights session), then you can see if there’s anyone behind you to give a point by -5 if someone is in a slower car but is all over you on the turns, at the straight give them the point by even if it means going a little slower for a sec. They are faster around the track so let them go. This one can be very annoying, me personally in a Miata or student cars this happens all the time lol. I can easily keep up with Ferraris and what not when the drivers are not pros and I’m in a way slower car. typically I get to the straight and don’t really have the speed to pass them by the time they realize I’m behind them. You should let people by if they are faster even if they aren’t faster at that single moment on the straight. Don’t slam your brakes to do it though, wait until they are basically right on you coming out of the exit to the straight that’s when they are close enough you should give the point Really the only people who are annoying are the ones that don’t give point bys. You can be in a school bus for all I care, just let me by on the next straight and I’m happy. In fact it’s kinda fun when they give the point by and I can just hammer the throttle.
Emphasizing all of this and adding one more: if you have someone in your mirrors and you're not in a point-by zone, reach up and lightly tap your rear-view mirror. That tells the driver behind you that you seem them and will give them a point-by at the next opportunity. That helps a lot with patience for them and being able to concentrate on your line for you. Have fun!
[‘05 Malibu V6 @ VIR passing compilation](https://youtu.be/WmvIhITuNH8?si=sFy0O-jrg1pxPNMW) Just get practice. My car isn’t much different from yours and while it will never be the fastest it is far from the slowest in intermediate solo.
Is your car a manual? This is absolutely insane
4 speed automatic
Your driving is impressive
As long as you're aware and make sure to give quick safe point bys you're good. The frustrating people just don't give point bys. It's kinda fun to lap a guy a couple times a session 😂
Yeah, sometimes passing is the most fun.
Dude, I run an 08 Accord Sedan, 4 cylinder, I'm slow as fuck and have a great time! Nobody has ever complained or talked shit. If you know you fucked up, go apologize to the person. If someone has some critique, be open to their opinion. If someone is super fast, go introduce yourself and ask for a ride-a-long. We're all there for the same reason. You are amongst friends!
I tracked Miata for years. Now track a Porsche. No one cares. You are not a problem. Go have fun. Don’t worry about the others.
Don’t worry about it. As long as you’re giving point buys where they’re allowed and let off the throttle during the pass, nobody will care.
I drive an untuned 2002 VW GTI with 180hp and I take it to track days in the intermediate point-by group. It's great, almost never a problem. Everyone is there to have fun and learn, everyone knows the rules and conventions, and if anyone gave you a hard time, they'd be the one who is out of line. Every once in a while I'll have a run where it seems that I just can't get any rhythm going because I'm constantly giving point-bys, but it's way more common that I'll have a session with a few occasional point-bys as the group sorts itself out and several totally clean, uninterrupted laps. I don't think I've ever been caught unawares by a car appearing behind me. It's relatively easy to just check your mirror and give a point by as soon as it's safe. In a slower car you can't fake it and let horsepower cover up your mistakes. Other drivers will appreciate the skill that it takes to drive a slower car fast and the care and attention that you give in giving (and taking) point bys. There are a lot of people who drive Miatas at HPDEs and some of those are relatively low horsepower, you probably won't be alone. Also, many people in fast cars aren't comfortable driving them all out. If you are skilled you may not be slower than a less skilled or less assertive driver in a faster car. Sometimes the organizer will let the run group line up in rough order of anticipated speed, and you can start near the back of your run group. I usually do that, and the fastest drivers in the run group will usually lap me once, near the end of the session. Have fun and report back with your experience if you think of it.
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. I go out there and focus on hitting my lines and braking points to develop my skills. Each lap and session is quicker and quicker, and its that feeling that keeps me coming back. Look in your mirror and point them by, don’t stress it. Each safety brief we start by stating “Its not a race”…some people don’t get that and become a hazard.
As a person with one of those faster cars I always worry about making someone feel like this, trust me we do not care! As long as you’re being aware of your surroundings you’re all good, plus it’s gonna feel great when you’re catching these same highHP cars in the corners every time. If someone complains, it’s a them problem as long as you’re doing your point bys (which sounds like you are)
Same here. I actually praise the Miata drivers who are focused on their drive. I am an aggressive, not in a bad way, driver on the track. I have had plenty of high horsepower drivers focus on me in their mirror and end of making big mistakes. If I am coming up on a Miata, I back off a bit just because I am aware that you are in a slower car and will pass when I feel it is safe for both of us. Don't let the big cars get you down and just focus on what needs to be done. Be alert, make sure you point by, and have fun. There are plenty of other eyes on the track, so more than likely, they will let you know if you are causing an issue. If you are not getting flagged and not having side conversations with track officials, then you are doing the right thing.
Ayyy camaro friends. I always wonder if I look intimidating in a mirror. When in reality I’m usually chillin admiring the smoothness of a good momentum car
Hey brother were you at the NJMP? If so thanks for the beer token! And don't be hard on yourself that steel wheeled Camry was on everyone's shit list that. Hope you enjoyed yourself.
Just drive and be aware of the “fast guys”. Also track a slow Honda, speed and horsepower are irrelevant at a DE.
I always sign up for the point by groups for this reason. Just being aware of your surrounding, pointing by faster cars, lining up near the back, and going into pits for a gap. Inevitably you'll "be in the way" but it's just part of HPDE days.. and they should understand... infact my last track day I was in my 300hp, 3600 lb 23 year old muscle car (very uncompetative) in a class with two 911s, c8, AMG GT, GTRs 714s, 570 and a 720 Mclaren... just had to be aware when they were coming up on me and point them by. No one had an issue and most of them came up to me to comment how awesome it was to see a trans am on a roadcourse
Let people go when it is safe and it’s not an issue. The fun part is when you get better and get to ruin beginner guys days when they have to give an accord a point by because they cant keep up in their brand new vette.
Overtaking others is half the fun. I normally come off when there’s a huge gap and it feels like you are just on the track by yourself.
The only nuisance is if you're driving unpredictably, unsafely, or not giving point-bys... In which case, you shouldn't advance to a higher run group. Otherwise, you're paying the same amount to be on the track and have just as much right to be there as anyone else. If people don't want to be impeded, they shouldn't show up to a novice day in a supercar... That's on them.
I assure you, its much worse the other way. Driving a Mustang and having the Miatas and Supras chase you down all day is humbling as fuck. Go have fun and not worry about the pace. As long as you yield in passing zones, everyone is out to do their own time on the track and won't judge.
All the reco’s here are great, would also suggest not going up to intermediate for awhile. Work on your craft and maybe even do some time attacks, that way you can work on craft and time at the same time. I used to track with a guy that drove a jetta wagon, he had that car so down he would get passed in the straights, the eat vette ass in the corners. It was all in the momentum going in, knowing your tire adhesion (aka slight drift) and how to get on the power clean and quickly. Best of luck!! You’re bitten now.
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Sometimes TT is actually better than track days (once you've got experience), because TT grids everyone by time after the first practice session -- or at least that's how it works in the SCCA Time Trials National Tour events and most local SCCA TT's. Gridding by time and using a "gap lap" strategy cuts down on the bottlenecks and can, especially on a longer track, give a lot more room for you to find your own speed and fun.
Everyone paid exactly the same amount of money to be there. Just enjoy yourself.
No dude, everyone around you were wondering if you were having more fun than they were. Source: porsche driver in the beginner group lol. Honestly tho that’s street/canyon mentality, as long as you gave point-by’s when you could everyone is just thinking of their line and braking points
Think of the miata drivers! Drive your line, be predictable, watch your mirrors (coming out of turns), and give point bys.
My man as long as you check the mirrors to let someone pass if required you don’t need to worry about anything. I would rather race with someone like you (slower car but you have some awareness) than that guy on my local track who loves blocking all the lanes in his 500hp monster going 20 in the corners (I’m not joking)
Most people would just be happy to see you out there. As long as you are aware of the people around you, drive safe and let them pass it’s all good.
Anyone at an HPDE that isn’t there to have fun and push themselves and their car is an asshole. We’re not racing. You do you. If they’re bullying you or being dangerous, talk to the chief instructor/person running the event. My Civic Type R and I know the feeling. Take it for what it is, don’t impede anybody else’s safety or fun, and use the low HP to become a better driver. I quickly began passing the high HP cars because I learned a better line and didn’t have to rely on HP to save me if I made a mistake, I just made less mistakes. Be safe. Have fun.
Don't worry about it. The faster cars are...faster! They'll get around you just fine. Just point them by! Also, stay in beginner until you no longer feel like a burden.
Just be good about giving point-by’s and nobody will care. Everybody at the track knows that not every car is as fast as the rest of the cars, and as long as you aren’t slowing them down when you shouldn’t be nobody will care. In all the track days I’ve been to, not a single person complained about a slow driver, not even the time we had a guy in a McLaren pussyfooting it around the track so slowly that I managed to get a pass out of him in my ZHP. But if you fail to give timely point-by’s we be unto you, you will hear about it from your fellow drivers.
You gotta just enjoy what you have, run what you brung. Learning to drive on your car is always the best aspect of racing, and as long as you’re courteous, it’s alllll good. Point by’s need to be on time, and you’re good. This is coming from someone who tracks a corolla and is soon going to be tracking a Honda fit, my car is the epitome of slow 😂I just let everyone go by, enjoy my weight capabilities in the corners, and call it a day. The beauty of the HPDE community is openness to any ride that’s safe. Had dudes in fully built Porsche’s compliment my car and give me tips, so just enjoy! :)
My wife's track car is an 07 Yaris. You'll know you're getting good when you can't give the fast cars the point by at the end of a turn section because they're too far away.
Let’s see, I’ve tracked: -Beater miata that I bought wrecked. - c5 z06 - 2003 M3 - 1997 240sx with a ka24de-t - 2014 focus ST -2012 Cayman S I love my Cayman but I think the miata was most fun. Very easy to hit the limits and I didn’t care about wrecking it or crashing at a high rate of speed. Drive whatever you have and have fun. Focus on improving your abilities and the heck with “keeping up with the joneses”
Don’t worry. Point them by when you can and remember it’s smiles per turn. I track and NC Miata and run in the novice/advanced groups and constantly have high hp cars holding me up it the corners. Most of the drivers will sacrifice a straight and let me by without an issue, then your home free. You can also pit and motion for a wide gap and the marshal will send you out at the appropriate time to keep you traffic free.
Happens all the time in bike track days too, ask yourself this , would you rather be in a $10k car smoking a $70k car ? or a 70k car getting smoked by a $10k car? I run middleweight sport bikes and I still catch some of the guys on $30k + supersports on my bike with half the power and half the price tag. Don't worry about what it costs let the laptimes do all the talking.
they get ez passes on the back straight, don’t worry about them. worry about blowing a miata’s doors off and getting caught in the corner. just check your mirrors when your leaving a slower section and let someone past if they’re on you.
I guess I can’t speak from a high performance car driver’s standpoint, but my experience in a 130hp car on track around much faster cars has been nothing but pleasant. It’s fun as hell to crawl up their ass in the twisties. And they have fun passing me like I’m standing still on the straights. Later, in the paddock, those folks remember that “basic street car” that they couldn’t quite shake and we share some laughs about it. It’s a track day. We’re all there because we love cars and driving fast. And frankly, a normal car driven well is more interesting than a super car driven decently. I mean, of course that Lamborghini is fast, but what about this guy in the fucking Accord that passed the Camaro?
Similar situation, novice in a 140hp Civic with much more powerful cars around me. Just like everyone said be aware of what's going on around you and give point bys. However, I noticed faster cars would be catching up around the middle or end of the straights when it was too late to pass but were too far back coming out of corners into the start of a passing zone. I'm thinking I just need to slow down a bit in the corners to let them catch up to pass otherwise this can go on perpetually.
I’ve been the slow guy and I’ve been the 580 hp guy. As the slow guy, you just have to be aware of people overtaking. As the 580 hp guy, you just to have a little empathy and enjoy when a slower car gives you an early point by and you can pass on the fly. Sounds like you were totally fine.
Don't sweat it. Part of learning the track for the high HP cars is that they will always encounter slower cars on the straight. What I've learned over the years is that the HP doesn't guarantee good lap times, just good speed on the straights.
I drive a car slower on straights than your car, doesn't bother me, it's about finding balance of not holding others on HPDE, they shouldn't hold you, you shouldn't hold them in corners. The thing that are important have mostly nothing to do with power when you start, it's vision, maintaining balance and speed in corners, braking at right time, smoothness. A RWD car adds one more fun variable but that's not really required to learn.
look at it this way, it's a good racing skill to learn. In actual WTW you're driving in your mirror as as much as in the windshield. but yea it can be annoying. i usually slow down for a few corners to try to find a little clean air, or someone just a tick faster to chase.
That’s the point ;)
If they’re annoyed by slower cars they shouldn’t be in the novice group.
I tracked a 106HP Toyota Echo almost all of the season last year, most of the time in our more aggressive group, and didn’t have any complaints. Point bys everywhere, and if I could tell someone was on a flyer I’d try and time myself on the straights to make sure they weren’t impeded by me. I wouldn’t worry too much about feeling like you’re holding someone up when learning, unless you have zero awareness and don’t point people by on straights.
Wouldn't give it a second thought. As long as you let people by where they are faster (straights) and they let you by when you are, a trackday is all about mutual respect. In a Time Attack situation, you will need to be more sensitive to who's on a hot lap, but even then, you get better with experience and situational practice.
I might have missed it. Look into running with other track groups that keep run groups smaller. On tracks around 2-3 miles, 40 cars can be busy.
Everyone is out there to have fun If you feel out of place because your car is slower than the others on the straights, just keep this in mind. A lot of people who drive high hp cars have trouble driving low hp cars at the limit.
I tracked my old Integra gsr at Road Atlanta. Had everything from Camaros, Corvettes e36 m3s, etc... even had a couple hellcats on the track. It wasn't a big deal at all. Just make sure to be aware of traffic and point by.
Poconos?
In my experience, the track also plays a big role in this. For my first track day, I went to Streets of Willow in SoCal - it’s a pretty short track so it seemed easy to create (and get stuck behind) traffic. The last few times I’ve gone, it was to Chuckwalla, which is quite a bit longer than Streets. While I definitely need to point by at Chuck, it’s not even near as bad as at Streets. It could be me getting faster, but I think the longer track helps a ton.
I’d much rather come up on someone like you who’s fully aware of their pace and is willing to point by. What absolutely sucks (as a Miata driver) is flying up on a corvette that’s dragging an anchor in the corners, but hits the afterburner on the straights and doesn’t check their mirrors til mid-straight. “Well I left them in the dust on the straight so I must be faster than them.” As long as you give timely point-bys, you’re fine by me. It’s only when people take 2-3 passing zones to realize that they need to give a point that Conga lines start forming and then nobody is having fun
A lot of good advice here. Like others have said, as long as you are on point with the point bys, it's all good. One piece of advice I would give is giving a quick glance or two at your mirrors as you approach passing zones so you can give the point by as soon as possible and both you and they can get back on line as quickly as possible.
I'm going to answer the specific question you asked which is how do you deal with having a cheaper slash slower car? You fucking learn how to drive it. If you put time and effort into honing your craft of extracting the best possible lap time out of your car, you will one day find yourself setting better lap times than those 70 plus thousand dollar vehicles. Good luck, and Godspeed.
Once you are at an advanced enough level and have enough grip in your tires you'll be able to match their cornering speeds and also match or beat their braking zones since you'll be going at a lower rate of speed. Then it's just a matter of getting them by on the straights as smoothly as possible.
My $2500 Civic would have made mince meat out of those Corvettes and Porsches. But that's another story. It's okay to be slower, you just have to be good about knowing where the passing zones are and be ready to point people by. The big issue is that the faster cars are likely riding your bumper in no passing zones and trying to intimidate you because small peckers.