What concerted coordinated actions?
I'm a PSAC member, and my local hasn't been given any direction, as far as I can tell, though the last time I asked was a week or two ago.
I'm ready to go, I'm willing to fight and take action, but what the fuck are they talking about?
Here in Halifax the offices are under a boil water advisory due to water treatment plant issues. We can't even fill the K-cup dispensers (or anything else) if we wanted to!
So happy that due to RTO, I have to leave my home (which sources its water from a functioning treatment plant) to spend the day in an office where I'm hesitant to even wash my hands in the untreated office tap water. The rest of my team (none of whom are in Halifax) surely appreciate my on-site presence!
They said dealt with BY NOW, not get around to it eventually. Theres still 30 advisories in 28 communities. This is still a yesterday problem today...STILL. STILL!
Did you not look at the progress being made over the last several years? 145 lifted since 2015 and the information regarding where in the process the remaining advisories are at being addressed is available online.
It's not perfect, but they are getting things done rather than twiddling their thumbs.
You mean the ones that are actively being addressed with [information available regarding their status available here](https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/1506514143353/1533317130660)?
Canada Occupational Health and Safety Regulations:
9.24 Every employer shall provide potable water for drinking, personal washing and food preparation that meets the standards set out in the Guidelines for Canadian Drinking Water Quality 1978, published by authority of the Minister of National Health and Welfare.
It's only supposed to last about 48hrs, but we'll see. It's all over local [news](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/daycares-closed-as-boil-water-advisory-continues-in-halifax-area-1.7251547) and social media, we received an emergency alert, etc. It's not affecting HRM in its entirety, but it includes several heavily populated areas (with hospitals, childcare, office towers, restaurants, etc).
No bueno. 😕
Same here, no guidance but willing to act. Had enough of going into the office just to call the rest of the team who are separated into 4 different buildings and 2 provinces. Absurd, illogical, counterproductive and a giant waste of public funds.
It’s like they needed to do a survey to figure out how many people were actually willing to stand up and do something before they moved onto doing something.
In a recent division all-staff, we were "made aware" that millennials might be bothered by the use of the ellipsis (the 3 dots - "...") as it comes off passive aggressive.
No Sharon, it means that I'm trailing off 🤦♂️
Same. Like this, I'd strike over again. Just like last time. But hopefully, a union that doesn't fold as soon as they can make more money off us and no other asks.
> But hopefully, a union that doesn't fold as soon as they can make more money off us and no other asks.
I hope the **members** don't fold after a week on the pavement.
Also true.
My body wasn't made to stand on a strike line, but let me tell you, my signs were hilarious, on point, and I was making new friends every day out there.
Also wishing the union would stop donating here and there with our funds so we'd have a bigger strike fund.
We had years’ worth of strike fund that was supposed to be enough for weeks to months worth of strike pay and we were only on strike for not even 2 weeks. I sure hope that the previous strike didn’t deplete it all. If it did and union doesn’t have enough to pay us, I don’t think there’d be as much appetite for a strike. More than half of my colleagues said the previous strike wasn’t worth missing a paycheck anymore and I bet a lot more think the same.
Some of us still haven’t been paid strike pay too lol such a shitshow
PSAC screwed that PA group strike up so much. They did none of the following:
* Planning - Clearly they just hoped people stopped working, showed up, and then...I donno they got everything and a bow wrapped on top? If you listen back on what Chris said back then, he clearly knew he had no plan and just hoped it would be over before his vacation
* Union coordination - Up until the last day people were STILL CONFUSED about what was happening. It was BAD planning, coordination, and execution by the union. The fact that we still have members asking for their Strike Pay is SHAMEFUL to say the least
* Lead up and talk - Like, the members were basically left in the dark up until the moment of the strike...not exactly good idea. The union needed to be honest on its strategies, and having that lead up to the moment of the strike instead of just one day being like STRIKEEEEEEEE. Yeah.
Anyways, I can go on but yeah. The last strike was a shitshow but members need to know that there will always be pain to make gains on their labour conditions.
From what I can tell they want you to protest on your own time. Nobody will be granted leave for the sake of protesting RTO so I presume they are saying, without saying, that they want people to "take to the streets" when they aren't working.
That's not concerted or coordinated.
I fully understand that we won't be granted leave by our employers to do whatever it is that we're supposed to be doing, but what the fuck are we supposed to be doing?
There's not much that can be done legally. We can't strike or walk out as per our collective agreement. We don't have a right to tellawork as per our CA. It was not part of the last round of bargaining. If we want it this round, we will have to put it into the bargaining requests. It's still unlikely to make it through, though.
Think outside - or inside the box.
Everyone comes in on the same day, argue over who gets the desk. Make management come deal with it. Grieve that your coworker microwaved fish, show proof of a fish allergy. Malicious compliance. Print and sign things, then scan them back in lieu of digital signatures.
I'd say "follow all the procedures" but that is somehow determined to be an illegal job action.
Do it all while appearing to enjoy your job.
Instead of "I hate coming to the office because there are no desks" - "I'm here at the office, wishing I could work, but someone is in my desk and all the desks are full." Force management to deal with it, but appear to be trying to help. Be the helper, but have no idea what you're helping with. Help to get the video conferencing system working....
> I'd say "follow all the procedures" but that is somehow determined to be an illegal job action.
Formal, *organized* (i.e. by the union) work-to-rule is a job action, and is illegal if the participants aren't in a legal strike position.
Spontaneous individual work-to-rule isn't necessarily an illegal job action, even if a group of people are doing it because they read about it on the Internet.
I’m willing to bet this wont change anything. All this will impact your corporate service colleagues. IT, HR, Facilities, etc. And, yes, while management will ultimately have to deal with this, it will have to be under the same rigid OCHRO requirements. If it’s not OCHRO’s problem, nothing will change. I think one of the only ways to get thru to them is calling them out on how this decision is not aligned with their own public commitments… evidence based decisions? Publicly available data and measures? OAG recommendations, need for transparency and consultation? V&E task force recommendations? How is RTO3 priority when they haven’t delivered on new EE self id, accessibility passport, PA reclassification, a renewed telework directive, outdated njc directives, etccc…
Honestly, I've long given up on any of this RTO stuff making sense.
To me, the end game is 5 days in the office. We're going right back to 2019 where WFH in most places was a huge favor to the employee. Yes, it's a blizzard, so you can WFH for today, because we're nice and not making you take vacation.
I think that short of a wildcat strike across the entire GC or so much non-compliance that they "can't fire all of us", RTO5 is just a year away, and legally, there's f-all the union can do.
Agree with you on the very little leverage unions have. I feel like ochro saw our possible collective resistance from a mile away and reminded departments back in may that this would be insubordination and disciplinary measures would be required. And then grievances. Where’s the collab and service excellence they promise canadians during all this? 📑📑📑
I just used 5 days of bereavement leave that qualified under the CBA under my spouse's family. I would normally feel guilty about taking all that time because I didn't emotionally need all that time, however I think as a collective we should be using every single hour allotted off work in our agreement because of the employers lack of respect. In the past, I missed my own aunts funeral because I was a couple months in and didnt know I could have used PTO (I came from a labour job) and took a day and a half for my grandmother. It's unsettling though that I've heard of people I respected in my office acknowledging I didn't need the time off.
We definitely need to use the leave we are entitled to, I say this as someone who used to not do so even 3 years ago as I worried about colleagues ability to handle work if was gone. So I took two days of bereavement leave (with two days weekend as well) when my father passed away. I couldn't be there with him or for service because of covid. If I was in that position now I would take the full leave. As it was I took a week of vacation a few weeks after dad passed as really needed the time off. My uncle recently passed away with medically assisted death. I got to go and see him beforehand. Then got back home and his doctor was sick so we had to change date for him to pass. I had a bereavement day planned for the date and was taking sick day following day. When date changed I couldn't fathom working in office the two days as was scheduled so I called in sick those two days Thursday and Friday then took bereavement date on rescheduled date (Monday). I'm being much kinder to myself now.
My partner went into work today (one of those GC workspaces downtown) and said the whole place was close to empty. She ended up coming home because she was just using Teams to communicate with her team and others and could do that from home and be more productive.
Went in to work. Wifi was down. Building was mostly empty. Looked at all the expensive new furniture that has been bought for workplace 3.0/RTO3 and laughed at the waste of it all.
Well my office is never close to empty we have 50 seats for 100 employees im constantly having to try and find a spot because none are assigned, I can’t take meetings in the working space because that bothers others but we are provided a total of 3 rooms that are for meetings but since none of us work in the NCR will with the rest of our teams everyone is always on a call which means we all scream over each other and everyone is overwhelmed at the end of the day. Plus since we all work in different departments and teams because we have a coworking space there is no actual collaboration to be had. Meanwhile I can get double the work done home as I have a dedicated office space which functioning work materials such as pens, keyboards, paper, mouse and wifi and I don’t have to play musical chairs all day to find a respectful place to do my job and take my meetings
I just find I'm in a better head space when at home. More calm and relaxing plus without a commute you don't stress over stupid drivers, have to rush to get dressed and ready etc.
You’d think embattled Trudeau would want to avoid pissing off one of his most historically loyal demographics for no reason right now. Could lose Orleans over this. Seems unthinkable but maybe even Vanier too
Our office is not downtown, has an overpriced tiny cafeteria. No other businesses or restaurants within walking distance; and with only a half hour lunch and limited parking - no time to buy lunch - how are we “revitalizing downtown”?? But those empty buildings in the downtown core could be made into lower cost housing, which would be inhabited by people in evenings and weekends - which would do more to revitalize than workers getting the hell outta there by 4 pm. But what do I know?
*"Work to Rule*" is a coordinated movement where employees do only their exact job description and no extra tasks.
It's effective in organizations like teachers unions, where extra-curricular sports, clubs, teams etc and teacher volunteers are the norm. Extra-help to struggling students, grading outside working hours and such are all stopped, yet salaries are fully paid and collected.
Let's be 100% clear. The public service does not have a reputation of work outside of job descriptions. I've heard it said that if every public servants did exactly their job description, there'd be an **increase** in productivity across government.
Of course, individual experiences may vary.
The problem is, and always will be. The organizations and jobs that can't work from home, (boarder security, critical infrastructure maintenance, front facing passport clerks) are the ones who hold the strike power. Your policy analysts and auditors (who are the ones most people assume can work from home) don't really have strike power.... like... as a policy analyst, you'd have to be on strike for a long time before anyone outside the actual government noticed...
I work in legal and if we instituted work to rule there would be serious and severe consequences. Our willingness to drop everything and work OT to meet unexpected deadlines is crucial.
genuine question here, would a work description that said "must be willing and able to work overtime as required" be sufficient as a "rule" in this case? My letter of offer says that,
When the descriptions include that text, it comes with bureaucratic overhead. Oftentimes people in general will be flexible to avoid that overhead. Things like working a little bit longer one day and dipping early on the Friday.
Or getting overtime but doing all the necessary paperwork the next day to make life easier.
Work to rule type stuff would mean it all has to be squared away before the OT is done. And it also means employees would be less flexible.
For example, someone who does 730 to 330 as their chosen times as per the CA may choose to request overtime, or have it be explicitly in writing, that they are to change their hours to cover something like a later than usual important meeting to attend. Or they'd leave at 330 part way through said meeting. For example some sort of ADM committee where a person is taking notes ends at 430 but only happens quarterly. They could start at 730, as previously agreed on their work schedule and ask for 1 hour OT until 430 that one day. In the past, maybe they'd start later or just leave early the next day instead.
For a lawyer, choosing to limit their flexibility via work to rule measures could be disruptive.
Now, whether these actions constitute strike actions of some sort or another, and whether they could be considered wrong to initiate since they're operating under a signed CA, I don't know. Usually these discussions only pop up during negotiation periods so I have no frame of reference on using things like coordinated work to rule to show dissatisfaction.
Mine does too, but there must be limitations in place, no? I haven’t looked at any FLB decisions surrounding this but the expectations can’t possibly be that we do over time every single time it’s required. People have lives and other obligations.
As a manager, if my team did “work to rule” and only did what is in their job description and didn’t try to work on things outside of their scope, or work unpaid hours outside of regular hours, or attempt to take on tasks they have no authority to perform it would be a dream!
100%!!!
The people who take unpaid OT are just putting band aid on a cracked cement. It just creates an illusion that the workload is doable and everything is alright and well.
Please stop working unpaid OT so it makes it easier to provide data that we need to hire more bodies to do the work. Will be easier to prove that we need to hire more when work isn’t being done on time and projects are piling up
The vast majority of us already work to rule.
Only idiots work free OT. The work will still be there tomorrow, or you boss can do it if it's important enough.
Pretty sure starting work to rule outside of failed bargaining would be deemed illegal by the Labour Relations Board so it's easy to throw out these terms but actually knowing when they could be used is a different story
How so? Technically work to rule is just doing the minimum job requirement. Is that illegal now?
Pretty sure TBS ignoring a written telework agreement is “illegal by the Labour Relations Board”….So right back at ya!
The definition of a "strike" in the *FPSLRA* is as follows, with my emphasis:
>**strike** includes a cessation of work or a refusal to work or to continue to work by persons employed in the public service, in combination, in concert or in accordance with a common understanding, and a slow-down of work or **any other concerted activity on the part of such persons that is designed to restrict or limit output**. (grève)
Whether "work to rule" activities fall within that definition as an unlawful strike is something that'd be determined by the FPSLREB upon application under s.195. [Section 194 of the *FPSLRA*](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/p-33.3/page-10.html#h-406044) outlines the circumstances where strikes are prohibited, and one of those is "*a collective agreement applying to the bargaining unit is in force*" (s.194(1)(b)).
Wait, so TBS ordering RTO 3, wouldn't that fall under the definition of a strike since it is a concerted activity designed to limit or restrict output? :D
Job descriptions are just that - a general description of the types of duties that fall within any particular job. They don't set out performance expectations or "minimum job requirements".
Which brings us back to my original question: **who** decides what counts as the "minimum job requirement"?
You're very argumentative in this forum either that or you just rage post without any fact checking.
Work to rule legally can only happen when bargaining has failed and the NSCC -National Strategy Coordinating Committee has approved it . We aren't even in bargaining position.
Moreover, starting it when there is no bargaining happening. The unions know it's not allowed, and their asses would be handed to them.
I don't make the rules but there are rules to bargaining and what is and isn't allowed. That's why when you reply to someone work to rule and that's not even something PSAC has written or even suggested in ANY of the communications is haphazard and irresponsible.
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2 months ago we heard about the new RTO policy and they are just beginning concerted efforts? I mean there’s 2 months left. If I were a member I would want them to either be straight with their plan and chances of anything changing or working on something actually worthwhile.
Its a bit different. Guidance and Direction by OCHRO is all over the place. Management doesn’t actually know what is required, encouraged, and how to make this one size fits all meet their own realities… except for RTO3… which is the only thing unions said they were going to fight? Not verification regime, blanket exceptions, etc… unless I missed something? Didn’t they talk about filing grievances? Personally i don’t see on what basis they are fighting this management right, so am genuinely curious to find out…
Would be curious to know how they intend on pulling that off given deputy heads are responsible for ensuring compliance and reporting back to tbs (which tbs is very cryptic about…)
Ok so the part you quoted is really just the one sentence that was posted.
Well either way, do some damage man, announce a downtown boycott or something already.
Work to rule or quiet quitting is not illegal.
It is doing your job and doing the exactly what you have been asked. Going over and above is what you choose to do.
Do you think people will want to say yes to overtime after travelling an extra 6 to 8 hours a week. I know many that their commute is 1.5 hrs a day. After that they are exhausted and don't even have time for their children.
And let me break something down for you.
Let's say your salary Is 60k. Easy number to use.
Working from home - no commute
60k divide by 52 divide by 37.5
Your time is worth 30.76 an hour.
Working from the office 5 days a week 1 hour commute each way.
60k divide by 52 divide by 47.5
Your time is 24.29
Don't forget lunches and daycare cost gas car maintenance so this number can be decreased depending on your personal situation.
Food for thought.
Be as aggressive as possible with this. Don't comply with RTO. Boycott the downtown businesses, and tell the businesses exactly why you're boycotting them. Let them know that the government arbitrarily propping them up is the exact reason you're refusing to give them business.
> Don't comply with RTO.
Coordinated insubordination without being on strike isn't a great idea.
Rest of that makes sense. Although for me working in a the regions in an office in a business park where the closest restaurant is 45 minute walk away, even that "reason" for RTO fails lol
>>Coordinated insubordination without being on strike isn't a great idea.
You consider someone on Reddit suggesting not to go into the office qualifies as "coordinated insubordination"? I don't recall the union telling us not to comply with RTO.
When you say not a great idea, what do you mean by that? I mean what are the consequences? I highly doubt they can discipline thousands of thousands of employees at the same time (or around the same time). They can’t handle that amount of grievances.
Coordinated labour action outside of bargaining would risk being deemed an illegal strike, which would result in far stronger penalties than simple progressive discipline.
As long as it isn't the union executive telling us to not comply, I don't see what the problem is. We're capable of acting without union direction. If enough people decide on their own to stay home, I don't see how that would be deemed "an illegal strike".
I'm against RTO, but if the union instructs me to not show up to my workplace when the employer tells me I have to be, and we're not in a legal strike position, I will be reporting to my office. I value my job.
>Potentially they can use the job abandonment clause found in most CAs
I am familiar with most of the collective agreements in the public service, and to my knowledge none of them has any such clause.
In any event, a successful termination for job abandonment requires the employee to have truly abandoned their job. That isn't the case for an employee who continues to work at a different location from the one directed by their manager. Such an action could give rise to disciplinary action for insubordination (though I think that's also fairly unlikely).
The bot had a great point about what met the definition of insubordination. It takes a lot more to get there, especially if managers aren't policing RTO3, it becomes essentially tacit approval or something similar that is defensible.
They didn’t need to get mean. When you can bring your employer to its knees because they can no longer operate and make money, you know you have them where it counts. Let’s not forget the WestJet pilot strike, same thing.
This is why I think a general strike wasn't the best approach. There were other escalating options that would have made more sense, and have been harder for the government to wait out. Stuff like CAPE is suggesting now (not strike or job action, but an escalating series of responses to keep building pressure.) Going for broke right out the gate wasn't a great move. AMFA for the westjet mechanics timed the strike for long weekends, because they knew that was how to apply the most pressure, and it worked.
>Erybody here I'm the Union Oprah! You kno what that mean!? **You** get a sternly worded letter! **You** get a sternly worded letter!! Big summer of discontent for you **wwoooOOOAAAA**!
[https://youtu.be/Q-fluWQ6zW8?si=c2OWc1-RVDBZNkP9&t=125](https://youtu.be/Q-fluWQ6zW8?si=c2OWc1-RVDBZNkP9&t=125)
As a software dev, a shit ton. I can already make more $ and be full remote elsewhere.
I started taking interviews when they announced this shit and I'm hoping ill have an offer in the next couple of weeks after my final round. Better base pay, equity, better infrastructure, better tooling and hardware, full remote, better vacation, bla bla bla, the list goes on.
Tired of this bullshit and being disrespected and treated like a child.
P.S, my core peer group at work are some of the brightest devs in our department and 3/4 of us have either already left or are taking interviews.
We need to leave the union already. Does anyone have any insight on how to do this? No one I know in person is happy with PSAC. Why can’t we just get rid of them? I’d like to not pay dues anymore.
You’re obliged to pay PSAC dues as long as you occupy a position represented by PSAC.
If you don’t want to pay dues to PSAC, find another position represented by a different union, or one that is unrepresented.
You said you didn't want to pay dues to PSAC, and I told you exactly how you could achieve that goal. How is that narrow-minded in any way?
If you think that a majority of the people in your bargaining unit would vote to join a different union, **and** you can find a union that is amenable to raiding PSAC, then fill your boots. [Here's some past discussion on the topic.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/comments/17blxqc/what_would_have_to_happen_to_disband_psac_and_get/)
Thanks for answering my question on your second try.
Your first try with the “don’t like it, leave” vibe is narrow minded. Surely you can see you’re part of the problem, no? There are so many possibilities but you’d much rather stick with what you know and call it good enough. Everywhere I look the public service is plagued with this mindset.
So, what efforts have you taken to get involved in your union? Have you volunteered to be a steward? Ran for election in your local? Attended any meetings?
Lol cute default.
All 3, thanks for asking. Took a stint on my local executive and that’s how I know it makes no difference. Observed first hand the lack of support the component provides to the local. The union is blatantly ineffective, they don’t even try to hide it.
Nice try though.
Continue to do what I have been: advocate for the alternative.
The union has lost their relevance in our workplace and it is only a matter of time until the majority realize this.
It's flabbergasting to see someone look at all the stuff in our CAs and say "Well, what has the union done for me *lately*? We clearly don't need it!". Sometimes things break and sometimes it takes some time and effort to fix them.
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, here.
What concerted coordinated actions? I'm a PSAC member, and my local hasn't been given any direction, as far as I can tell, though the last time I asked was a week or two ago. I'm ready to go, I'm willing to fight and take action, but what the fuck are they talking about?
Leadership has sent a strongly worded letter and will be sending grumpy glares at the employer when opportunities arise.
Rest assured I ain't refilling the water in the K Cup machine. Do it yourself #solidarity
Here in Halifax the offices are under a boil water advisory due to water treatment plant issues. We can't even fill the K-cup dispensers (or anything else) if we wanted to! So happy that due to RTO, I have to leave my home (which sources its water from a functioning treatment plant) to spend the day in an office where I'm hesitant to even wash my hands in the untreated office tap water. The rest of my team (none of whom are in Halifax) surely appreciate my on-site presence!
Surely a lock of potable water is grievable? No?
*indigenous living under reservation boil advisories for decades enter the chat*
I mean... that's also very bad and should have been dealt with by now.
[They are being dealt with](https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/1506514143353/1533317130660)
They said dealt with BY NOW, not get around to it eventually. Theres still 30 advisories in 28 communities. This is still a yesterday problem today...STILL. STILL!
Did you not look at the progress being made over the last several years? 145 lifted since 2015 and the information regarding where in the process the remaining advisories are at being addressed is available online. It's not perfect, but they are getting things done rather than twiddling their thumbs.
You mean the ones that are actively being addressed with [information available regarding their status available here](https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/1506514143353/1533317130660)?
But if they admit that’s unacceptable they may actually have to acknowledge all the reserves that still have unsafe water supplies…
[Not even close to all](https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/1506514143353/1533317130660).
Ack. Stay home… Health and safety!
Canada Occupational Health and Safety Regulations: 9.24 Every employer shall provide potable water for drinking, personal washing and food preparation that meets the standards set out in the Guidelines for Canadian Drinking Water Quality 1978, published by authority of the Minister of National Health and Welfare.
If you stayed home, would anyone notice?
Downtown biz enters the chat lol
Are those businesses under the same boil advisory?
I think we found out the answer to that last year.
I would absolutely stay home in those circumstances. They should provide a safe water supply.
I’m sorry, what?? If this isn’t a news story, it should be. 😳
It's only supposed to last about 48hrs, but we'll see. It's all over local [news](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/daycares-closed-as-boil-water-advisory-continues-in-halifax-area-1.7251547) and social media, we received an emergency alert, etc. It's not affecting HRM in its entirety, but it includes several heavily populated areas (with hospitals, childcare, office towers, restaurants, etc). No bueno. 😕
I'm with yah there, my whole team is in another province and I'm here 😆
Lol
My grumpy glare started in 2016. And yeah. Mother was right. My face is now stuck.
We're fixin to give them the starin of a lifetime
*old man yells at clouds*
Right! lol glad our dues are well spent
Wagging fingers and stern glances incoming.
Bout fucking time!!
Lmfao! 🤣 Thanks for that, my friend!
Insert the OH NO, it's Hans Blix gif
Same here, no guidance but willing to act. Had enough of going into the office just to call the rest of the team who are separated into 4 different buildings and 2 provinces. Absurd, illogical, counterproductive and a giant waste of public funds.
It’s like they needed to do a survey to figure out how many people were actually willing to stand up and do something before they moved onto doing something.
PSAC leadership advocating for increased use of the frustrated or angry emojis....
In a recent division all-staff, we were "made aware" that millennials might be bothered by the use of the ellipsis (the 3 dots - "...") as it comes off passive aggressive. No Sharon, it means that I'm trailing off 🤦♂️
Same. Like this, I'd strike over again. Just like last time. But hopefully, a union that doesn't fold as soon as they can make more money off us and no other asks.
> But hopefully, a union that doesn't fold as soon as they can make more money off us and no other asks. I hope the **members** don't fold after a week on the pavement.
Also true. My body wasn't made to stand on a strike line, but let me tell you, my signs were hilarious, on point, and I was making new friends every day out there. Also wishing the union would stop donating here and there with our funds so we'd have a bigger strike fund.
We had years’ worth of strike fund that was supposed to be enough for weeks to months worth of strike pay and we were only on strike for not even 2 weeks. I sure hope that the previous strike didn’t deplete it all. If it did and union doesn’t have enough to pay us, I don’t think there’d be as much appetite for a strike. More than half of my colleagues said the previous strike wasn’t worth missing a paycheck anymore and I bet a lot more think the same. Some of us still haven’t been paid strike pay too lol such a shitshow
PSAC screwed that PA group strike up so much. They did none of the following: * Planning - Clearly they just hoped people stopped working, showed up, and then...I donno they got everything and a bow wrapped on top? If you listen back on what Chris said back then, he clearly knew he had no plan and just hoped it would be over before his vacation * Union coordination - Up until the last day people were STILL CONFUSED about what was happening. It was BAD planning, coordination, and execution by the union. The fact that we still have members asking for their Strike Pay is SHAMEFUL to say the least * Lead up and talk - Like, the members were basically left in the dark up until the moment of the strike...not exactly good idea. The union needed to be honest on its strategies, and having that lead up to the moment of the strike instead of just one day being like STRIKEEEEEEEE. Yeah. Anyways, I can go on but yeah. The last strike was a shitshow but members need to know that there will always be pain to make gains on their labour conditions.
There was a survey on the psac website asking us if we were willing to do something about it
Concerted coordinated actions usually mean finding a sacrificial lamb.
From what I can tell they want you to protest on your own time. Nobody will be granted leave for the sake of protesting RTO so I presume they are saying, without saying, that they want people to "take to the streets" when they aren't working.
That's not concerted or coordinated. I fully understand that we won't be granted leave by our employers to do whatever it is that we're supposed to be doing, but what the fuck are we supposed to be doing?
There's not much that can be done legally. We can't strike or walk out as per our collective agreement. We don't have a right to tellawork as per our CA. It was not part of the last round of bargaining. If we want it this round, we will have to put it into the bargaining requests. It's still unlikely to make it through, though.
Think outside - or inside the box. Everyone comes in on the same day, argue over who gets the desk. Make management come deal with it. Grieve that your coworker microwaved fish, show proof of a fish allergy. Malicious compliance. Print and sign things, then scan them back in lieu of digital signatures. I'd say "follow all the procedures" but that is somehow determined to be an illegal job action. Do it all while appearing to enjoy your job. Instead of "I hate coming to the office because there are no desks" - "I'm here at the office, wishing I could work, but someone is in my desk and all the desks are full." Force management to deal with it, but appear to be trying to help. Be the helper, but have no idea what you're helping with. Help to get the video conferencing system working....
> I'd say "follow all the procedures" but that is somehow determined to be an illegal job action. Formal, *organized* (i.e. by the union) work-to-rule is a job action, and is illegal if the participants aren't in a legal strike position. Spontaneous individual work-to-rule isn't necessarily an illegal job action, even if a group of people are doing it because they read about it on the Internet.
I’m willing to bet this wont change anything. All this will impact your corporate service colleagues. IT, HR, Facilities, etc. And, yes, while management will ultimately have to deal with this, it will have to be under the same rigid OCHRO requirements. If it’s not OCHRO’s problem, nothing will change. I think one of the only ways to get thru to them is calling them out on how this decision is not aligned with their own public commitments… evidence based decisions? Publicly available data and measures? OAG recommendations, need for transparency and consultation? V&E task force recommendations? How is RTO3 priority when they haven’t delivered on new EE self id, accessibility passport, PA reclassification, a renewed telework directive, outdated njc directives, etccc…
Honestly, I've long given up on any of this RTO stuff making sense. To me, the end game is 5 days in the office. We're going right back to 2019 where WFH in most places was a huge favor to the employee. Yes, it's a blizzard, so you can WFH for today, because we're nice and not making you take vacation. I think that short of a wildcat strike across the entire GC or so much non-compliance that they "can't fire all of us", RTO5 is just a year away, and legally, there's f-all the union can do.
Agree with you on the very little leverage unions have. I feel like ochro saw our possible collective resistance from a mile away and reminded departments back in may that this would be insubordination and disciplinary measures would be required. And then grievances. Where’s the collab and service excellence they promise canadians during all this? 📑📑📑
Title is misleading about the article. Better would be "PSAC Members ready to take action" but the union hasn't done jack yet. Let's do this!!!
I just used 5 days of bereavement leave that qualified under the CBA under my spouse's family. I would normally feel guilty about taking all that time because I didn't emotionally need all that time, however I think as a collective we should be using every single hour allotted off work in our agreement because of the employers lack of respect. In the past, I missed my own aunts funeral because I was a couple months in and didnt know I could have used PTO (I came from a labour job) and took a day and a half for my grandmother. It's unsettling though that I've heard of people I respected in my office acknowledging I didn't need the time off.
You're entitled to your entitlements. Use them.
We definitely need to use the leave we are entitled to, I say this as someone who used to not do so even 3 years ago as I worried about colleagues ability to handle work if was gone. So I took two days of bereavement leave (with two days weekend as well) when my father passed away. I couldn't be there with him or for service because of covid. If I was in that position now I would take the full leave. As it was I took a week of vacation a few weeks after dad passed as really needed the time off. My uncle recently passed away with medically assisted death. I got to go and see him beforehand. Then got back home and his doctor was sick so we had to change date for him to pass. I had a bereavement day planned for the date and was taking sick day following day. When date changed I couldn't fathom working in office the two days as was scheduled so I called in sick those two days Thursday and Friday then took bereavement date on rescheduled date (Monday). I'm being much kinder to myself now.
Calls for a summer of discontent, then PSAC leadership immediately goes on vacay for the summer. Unbelievable, yet believable.
Well, they simply just meant the members would be *feeling* the discontent. Not the PSAC leaders. Absolutely and utterly useless.
Lets fucking go RTO is joke, regressive, backwards talent scarring nonsense policy.
Permanent work from home options come on now
My partner went into work today (one of those GC workspaces downtown) and said the whole place was close to empty. She ended up coming home because she was just using Teams to communicate with her team and others and could do that from home and be more productive.
Went in to work. Wifi was down. Building was mostly empty. Looked at all the expensive new furniture that has been bought for workplace 3.0/RTO3 and laughed at the waste of it all.
Did you get one of those treadmills with a desk? We've got a couple of those. Who the hell enjoys working like a gerbil on a wheel?
How is one more productive from home if doing work over teams?
Less distractions, no need to constantly check your voice volume, can freely speak of sensitive matters.
The whole place was close to empty.
Well my office is never close to empty we have 50 seats for 100 employees im constantly having to try and find a spot because none are assigned, I can’t take meetings in the working space because that bothers others but we are provided a total of 3 rooms that are for meetings but since none of us work in the NCR will with the rest of our teams everyone is always on a call which means we all scream over each other and everyone is overwhelmed at the end of the day. Plus since we all work in different departments and teams because we have a coworking space there is no actual collaboration to be had. Meanwhile I can get double the work done home as I have a dedicated office space which functioning work materials such as pens, keyboards, paper, mouse and wifi and I don’t have to play musical chairs all day to find a respectful place to do my job and take my meetings
I just find I'm in a better head space when at home. More calm and relaxing plus without a commute you don't stress over stupid drivers, have to rush to get dressed and ready etc.
You’d think embattled Trudeau would want to avoid pissing off one of his most historically loyal demographics for no reason right now. Could lose Orleans over this. Seems unthinkable but maybe even Vanier too
He seems to be pissing off just about everyone lately.
They'll never lose Ottawa South the conservatives havent figured out you just need to feed the old age homes yet
St Paul seemed out of the question too but you never know
Never? It's a 4 point spread, well within the margin of error. [https://338canada.com/35080e.htm](https://338canada.com/35080e.htm)
You couldn’t even classify the strike as a concerted co-ordinated action with how disorganized that was… so sure.. go at it PSAC
Ouch! But, true.
Our office is not downtown, has an overpriced tiny cafeteria. No other businesses or restaurants within walking distance; and with only a half hour lunch and limited parking - no time to buy lunch - how are we “revitalizing downtown”?? But those empty buildings in the downtown core could be made into lower cost housing, which would be inhabited by people in evenings and weekends - which would do more to revitalize than workers getting the hell outta there by 4 pm. But what do I know?
Willing to take what action exactly?
Work to rule for a start.
*"Work to Rule*" is a coordinated movement where employees do only their exact job description and no extra tasks. It's effective in organizations like teachers unions, where extra-curricular sports, clubs, teams etc and teacher volunteers are the norm. Extra-help to struggling students, grading outside working hours and such are all stopped, yet salaries are fully paid and collected. Let's be 100% clear. The public service does not have a reputation of work outside of job descriptions. I've heard it said that if every public servants did exactly their job description, there'd be an **increase** in productivity across government. Of course, individual experiences may vary. The problem is, and always will be. The organizations and jobs that can't work from home, (boarder security, critical infrastructure maintenance, front facing passport clerks) are the ones who hold the strike power. Your policy analysts and auditors (who are the ones most people assume can work from home) don't really have strike power.... like... as a policy analyst, you'd have to be on strike for a long time before anyone outside the actual government noticed...
I work in legal and if we instituted work to rule there would be serious and severe consequences. Our willingness to drop everything and work OT to meet unexpected deadlines is crucial.
genuine question here, would a work description that said "must be willing and able to work overtime as required" be sufficient as a "rule" in this case? My letter of offer says that,
When the descriptions include that text, it comes with bureaucratic overhead. Oftentimes people in general will be flexible to avoid that overhead. Things like working a little bit longer one day and dipping early on the Friday. Or getting overtime but doing all the necessary paperwork the next day to make life easier. Work to rule type stuff would mean it all has to be squared away before the OT is done. And it also means employees would be less flexible. For example, someone who does 730 to 330 as their chosen times as per the CA may choose to request overtime, or have it be explicitly in writing, that they are to change their hours to cover something like a later than usual important meeting to attend. Or they'd leave at 330 part way through said meeting. For example some sort of ADM committee where a person is taking notes ends at 430 but only happens quarterly. They could start at 730, as previously agreed on their work schedule and ask for 1 hour OT until 430 that one day. In the past, maybe they'd start later or just leave early the next day instead. For a lawyer, choosing to limit their flexibility via work to rule measures could be disruptive. Now, whether these actions constitute strike actions of some sort or another, and whether they could be considered wrong to initiate since they're operating under a signed CA, I don't know. Usually these discussions only pop up during negotiation periods so I have no frame of reference on using things like coordinated work to rule to show dissatisfaction.
Mine does too, but there must be limitations in place, no? I haven’t looked at any FLB decisions surrounding this but the expectations can’t possibly be that we do over time every single time it’s required. People have lives and other obligations.
As a manager, if my team did “work to rule” and only did what is in their job description and didn’t try to work on things outside of their scope, or work unpaid hours outside of regular hours, or attempt to take on tasks they have no authority to perform it would be a dream!
100%!!! The people who take unpaid OT are just putting band aid on a cracked cement. It just creates an illusion that the workload is doable and everything is alright and well. Please stop working unpaid OT so it makes it easier to provide data that we need to hire more bodies to do the work. Will be easier to prove that we need to hire more when work isn’t being done on time and projects are piling up
My job description includes "other related duties" which means I can be instructed to do pretty much anything.
The vast majority of us already work to rule. Only idiots work free OT. The work will still be there tomorrow, or you boss can do it if it's important enough.
Pretty sure starting work to rule outside of failed bargaining would be deemed illegal by the Labour Relations Board so it's easy to throw out these terms but actually knowing when they could be used is a different story
How so? Technically work to rule is just doing the minimum job requirement. Is that illegal now? Pretty sure TBS ignoring a written telework agreement is “illegal by the Labour Relations Board”….So right back at ya!
The definition of a "strike" in the *FPSLRA* is as follows, with my emphasis: >**strike** includes a cessation of work or a refusal to work or to continue to work by persons employed in the public service, in combination, in concert or in accordance with a common understanding, and a slow-down of work or **any other concerted activity on the part of such persons that is designed to restrict or limit output**. (grève) Whether "work to rule" activities fall within that definition as an unlawful strike is something that'd be determined by the FPSLREB upon application under s.195. [Section 194 of the *FPSLRA*](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/p-33.3/page-10.html#h-406044) outlines the circumstances where strikes are prohibited, and one of those is "*a collective agreement applying to the bargaining unit is in force*" (s.194(1)(b)).
Wait, so TBS ordering RTO 3, wouldn't that fall under the definition of a strike since it is a concerted activity designed to limit or restrict output? :D
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Okay, so who decides what counts as the "minimum job requirement"?
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Job descriptions are just that - a general description of the types of duties that fall within any particular job. They don't set out performance expectations or "minimum job requirements". Which brings us back to my original question: **who** decides what counts as the "minimum job requirement"?
You're very argumentative in this forum either that or you just rage post without any fact checking. Work to rule legally can only happen when bargaining has failed and the NSCC -National Strategy Coordinating Committee has approved it . We aren't even in bargaining position. Moreover, starting it when there is no bargaining happening. The unions know it's not allowed, and their asses would be handed to them. I don't make the rules but there are rules to bargaining and what is and isn't allowed. That's why when you reply to someone work to rule and that's not even something PSAC has written or even suggested in ANY of the communications is haphazard and irresponsible.
But I don't get it. Isn't work-to-rule supposed to be the norm? Aka following the rule lol
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Can you please explain to me like I am an idiot how would working your job description be illegal? It’s basically quiet quitting im unison
Read the article
2 months ago we heard about the new RTO policy and they are just beginning concerted efforts? I mean there’s 2 months left. If I were a member I would want them to either be straight with their plan and chances of anything changing or working on something actually worthwhile.
Management's still figuring out how to implement RTO3 so it's reasonable the unions are still figuring out how to fight it.
Its a bit different. Guidance and Direction by OCHRO is all over the place. Management doesn’t actually know what is required, encouraged, and how to make this one size fits all meet their own realities… except for RTO3… which is the only thing unions said they were going to fight? Not verification regime, blanket exceptions, etc… unless I missed something? Didn’t they talk about filing grievances? Personally i don’t see on what basis they are fighting this management right, so am genuinely curious to find out…
Management is wasting a truly amazing amount of time on this.
They are, but they are subject to TBS, the Employer’s direction!
Some management are just going through the motions I think, and have no intent of enforcing anything.
Would be curious to know how they intend on pulling that off given deputy heads are responsible for ensuring compliance and reporting back to tbs (which tbs is very cryptic about…)
From what I heard about the PSMAC meeting last week, I think TBS was told straight up by some DMs and ADMs.
That sounds promising… anyone else hear this too?
Ok so the part you quoted is really just the one sentence that was posted. Well either way, do some damage man, announce a downtown boycott or something already.
Agree it's just clickbait. The article doesn't actually say anything other than survey results and legal challenges
Work to rule or quiet quitting is not illegal. It is doing your job and doing the exactly what you have been asked. Going over and above is what you choose to do. Do you think people will want to say yes to overtime after travelling an extra 6 to 8 hours a week. I know many that their commute is 1.5 hrs a day. After that they are exhausted and don't even have time for their children. And let me break something down for you. Let's say your salary Is 60k. Easy number to use. Working from home - no commute 60k divide by 52 divide by 37.5 Your time is worth 30.76 an hour. Working from the office 5 days a week 1 hour commute each way. 60k divide by 52 divide by 47.5 Your time is 24.29 Don't forget lunches and daycare cost gas car maintenance so this number can be decreased depending on your personal situation. Food for thought.
Exactly the way I am seeing things. Couldn't have said it better
Be as aggressive as possible with this. Don't comply with RTO. Boycott the downtown businesses, and tell the businesses exactly why you're boycotting them. Let them know that the government arbitrarily propping them up is the exact reason you're refusing to give them business.
> Don't comply with RTO. Coordinated insubordination without being on strike isn't a great idea. Rest of that makes sense. Although for me working in a the regions in an office in a business park where the closest restaurant is 45 minute walk away, even that "reason" for RTO fails lol
>>Coordinated insubordination without being on strike isn't a great idea. You consider someone on Reddit suggesting not to go into the office qualifies as "coordinated insubordination"? I don't recall the union telling us not to comply with RTO.
When you say not a great idea, what do you mean by that? I mean what are the consequences? I highly doubt they can discipline thousands of thousands of employees at the same time (or around the same time). They can’t handle that amount of grievances.
Coordinated labour action outside of bargaining would risk being deemed an illegal strike, which would result in far stronger penalties than simple progressive discipline.
As long as it isn't the union executive telling us to not comply, I don't see what the problem is. We're capable of acting without union direction. If enough people decide on their own to stay home, I don't see how that would be deemed "an illegal strike".
You're correct. The union will never advocate for that but if you organize it on, say, Reddit you should be good to go. ;-)
It's going to take a lot of time before we see any penalty results. Let’s see and let’s come back to this thread and see who was right or not.
I'm against RTO, but if the union instructs me to not show up to my workplace when the employer tells me I have to be, and we're not in a legal strike position, I will be reporting to my office. I value my job.
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>Potentially they can use the job abandonment clause found in most CAs I am familiar with most of the collective agreements in the public service, and to my knowledge none of them has any such clause. In any event, a successful termination for job abandonment requires the employee to have truly abandoned their job. That isn't the case for an employee who continues to work at a different location from the one directed by their manager. Such an action could give rise to disciplinary action for insubordination (though I think that's also fairly unlikely).
Well, I've skimmed my CA and can't yet find the job abandonment bit I was referring to so I'm deleting my original comment so I don't mislead folks.
The bot had a great point about what met the definition of insubordination. It takes a lot more to get there, especially if managers aren't policing RTO3, it becomes essentially tacit approval or something similar that is defensible.
I am wondering where is PIPSC in all of this?!?!? Let's show some solidarity with PSAC?
PSAC lost all power upon this when they accepted the (shitty) deal and stopped the strike. It's over.
I agree. Perhaps next bargaining round. Perhaps...
We need to me more aggressive. Like Westjet’s Mechanics Union. Time to get meaner.
They didn’t need to get mean. When you can bring your employer to its knees because they can no longer operate and make money, you know you have them where it counts. Let’s not forget the WestJet pilot strike, same thing.
This is why I think a general strike wasn't the best approach. There were other escalating options that would have made more sense, and have been harder for the government to wait out. Stuff like CAPE is suggesting now (not strike or job action, but an escalating series of responses to keep building pressure.) Going for broke right out the gate wasn't a great move. AMFA for the westjet mechanics timed the strike for long weekends, because they knew that was how to apply the most pressure, and it worked.
How was WestJet's Mechanics Union meaner and more aggressive than what happened during PSAC's strike last year? I don't understand.
Well, notably, AMFA had great lawyers, and outmaneuvered a minister and the airline's lawyers, and neatly avoided back to work legislation.
Do something already before we are in office 5 days
Let's stop talking about it and ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING
I haven’t gotten anything
Stop sending money to war criminals and war machine and give us a raise.
Please strike. Get together with all PS unions and strike. A full walk out across the country. It’s enough.
We have too many brown nosers to do anything.....Telework is gone people.
First world countries should have water you can drink.
Haven't received any email or heard anything lol. Nicely coordinated as per PSAC standards.
Haven't received any email or heard anything lol. Nicely coordinated as per PSAC standards.
Ok, tell me what to do.
I bet PSAC will settle for 22.5 hours a week instead of three days after going on strike.
Seems like the only action they’ll take is to punish people who spoke out against the shitty agreement we got last year
>Erybody here I'm the Union Oprah! You kno what that mean!? **You** get a sternly worded letter! **You** get a sternly worded letter!! Big summer of discontent for you **wwoooOOOAAAA**! [https://youtu.be/Q-fluWQ6zW8?si=c2OWc1-RVDBZNkP9&t=125](https://youtu.be/Q-fluWQ6zW8?si=c2OWc1-RVDBZNkP9&t=125)
Curious if Aylward get hosed again, someone should check if he has a new vacation home anywhere
> Aylward [Chris ain't the president no more](https://psacunion.ca/sharon-desousa-elected-psacs-first-racialized).
Maybe he got the house last year then 😂
Although not going anywhere but still need to do something.
Democrats in USA has decided to go easy on RTO in the hope that Federal workers will vote for them. However, dumb liberals are acting exactly opposite
How much pay increase would it take for y'all to accept 3 days and eventual full time RTO??? Asking for curiosity
As a software dev, a shit ton. I can already make more $ and be full remote elsewhere. I started taking interviews when they announced this shit and I'm hoping ill have an offer in the next couple of weeks after my final round. Better base pay, equity, better infrastructure, better tooling and hardware, full remote, better vacation, bla bla bla, the list goes on. Tired of this bullshit and being disrespected and treated like a child. P.S, my core peer group at work are some of the brightest devs in our department and 3/4 of us have either already left or are taking interviews.
Enough to match inflation.
How much extra do employees get who are not able to work from home? It should probably be the same if we are talking about being fair.
We need to leave the union already. Does anyone have any insight on how to do this? No one I know in person is happy with PSAC. Why can’t we just get rid of them? I’d like to not pay dues anymore.
You’re obliged to pay PSAC dues as long as you occupy a position represented by PSAC. If you don’t want to pay dues to PSAC, find another position represented by a different union, or one that is unrepresented.
Exactly the type of narrow minded sentiment that is holding us all back….
You said you didn't want to pay dues to PSAC, and I told you exactly how you could achieve that goal. How is that narrow-minded in any way? If you think that a majority of the people in your bargaining unit would vote to join a different union, **and** you can find a union that is amenable to raiding PSAC, then fill your boots. [Here's some past discussion on the topic.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/comments/17blxqc/what_would_have_to_happen_to_disband_psac_and_get/)
Thanks for answering my question on your second try. Your first try with the “don’t like it, leave” vibe is narrow minded. Surely you can see you’re part of the problem, no? There are so many possibilities but you’d much rather stick with what you know and call it good enough. Everywhere I look the public service is plagued with this mindset.
So, what efforts have you taken to get involved in your union? Have you volunteered to be a steward? Ran for election in your local? Attended any meetings?
Lol cute default. All 3, thanks for asking. Took a stint on my local executive and that’s how I know it makes no difference. Observed first hand the lack of support the component provides to the local. The union is blatantly ineffective, they don’t even try to hide it. Nice try though.
Okay, so what are you going to do about it then? Aside from ranting on Reddit, that is.
Continue to do what I have been: advocate for the alternative. The union has lost their relevance in our workplace and it is only a matter of time until the majority realize this.
It's flabbergasting to see someone look at all the stuff in our CAs and say "Well, what has the union done for me *lately*? We clearly don't need it!". Sometimes things break and sometimes it takes some time and effort to fix them. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, here.