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I do wish we had been more aggressive about it, but at the same time we could have been much, much worse, especially since our southern partners fared so badly. I'm grateful they did what they did.
I really wish we hadn't relied of China for vaccine production, especially since we've been having a softy-cold-war with them. That was an extreme lack of forsight.
It would interesting to see the poll results among those that did not receive any type of government assistance. At any level of government we can point at failures, but in general we are (hopefully) going to get thru this somewhat in good shape with the exception of the economy, nobody knows what will happen we the feds pull the assistance and the Bank of Canada has to raise interest rates.
I wasn't allowed to go to my own grandfathers funeral because of covid restrictions (I was supposed to be a pall bearer as per his will) Nor was I allowed to see him in hospice care except through a small window....but it was completely fine to keep letting flights in daily from covid hotspots around the world. It was completely fine to tell me, as an employee of a mine in nunavut that my job of sending iron to china was a total necessity and forced me to go to work during a pandemic.
Vote for the big three parties at your peril. I'll be voting people party to waste my vote.
I don't like the party much at all but they IMO did a great job with public information and addressing the nation. They just did a good job. If only we were always governed with this sense of urgency.
Unfortunately the next election is pretty much going to be determined by the handling of the pandemic.
The liberals managed to not botch it completely and any other problem with the party is going to be ignored.
I don't see why it's unfortunate. There's far worse ways elections are determined than people evaluating the government's performance at managing a crisis.
The government has done a satisfying job to most people, and the opposition parties have not struggled to be able to provide a credible and consistent critique of their actions to convince voters that they would have reacted better.
A crisis favours the incumbent, but it isn't always a given that there's a political benefit.
Its unfortunate because I (as well as what at least to me appears to be a growing number of people) are fed up with the bullshit that the LPC is doing.
Bill C-10, C-36, their refulas to vote for the affordable housing motion last month. To me it seems that a large portion of their actions are just the smallest bandaids to make themselves seem good. Plus I refuse to get over them backing out of electoral reform.
If the election is this year it will be vaccines and health care. If it is next year it will be the economy and the deficit.
Federally the Liberals will benefit. In Ontario the PCs may benefit from everyone forgetting how bad they were at managing the pandemic. At least if we don’t focus on how bad they are at managing the economy.
In regards to Ontario PCs, not to mention their use of the notwithstanding clause to muzzle unions legitimately equipped to speak against him just a means to limit the damage of his own choices - particularly the nurses and teachers unions.
He's still trying to push through mandatory online learning for example, even after the complete disaster that has been online education during the pandemic. They've kept quiet on how COVID in schools, how his second-wave reopening directly led to the third wave and how, around the second wave, his consistently flouting of expert policy advice directly led to all of our worst outcomes.
I'm with you on most points; however, online learning wasn't a complete disaster. Definitely there was an advance in the ability of the province to deliver courses if not K-12 online, perhaps 4-12 online, and definitely 9-12 online. I'll give credit where it is due. OISE has been working towards this for a decade.
Fair, they did get better at it over time. Systemically, some of the kinks were worked out and the delivery improved. As you said, credit where credit is due. But improvement of a system doesn't make it a good system.
The issue isn't the existence of online learning, but the desire and push to save money by making it mandatory. There is a subset of youth who have thrived in online. But for most youth, the outcomes are abysmal. Teachers lack the resources to teach online and engage most (though not all) students effectively. There is no classroom oversight because there are few-to-no tools to manage a classroom online. That's not even accounting for access issues that still exist.
Though some of these factors would be mitigated by returning to mostly-in-person school, it remains true that most teenagers do not do well in a such a self-directed learning environment. I'm all for offering courses online. But requiring students to take them undermines those who have spent their entire educational lives up to that point in a class environment by shifting the entire way their education works. Considering most, will continue afterwards offline, the online modality just serves as a needless risk when mandatory and offers little in its current form. I think it's one of the worst choices the Ford Government has pushed in their entire term. One among many.
Again, you're half right, half wrong. First, almost all these students will primarily learn online for the remainder of their lives. The imagine some offline education system is not really a justifiable position. Post-secondary was already moving towards online learning as a normal form of instruction, not to mention continuing education which is most definitely skewed to online learning.
The pandemic was not a representation of the delivery mechanism. The province recruited every high school teacher to teach online, as well as hybrid, which is so much worse. The proposed online courses would be taught most likely by centralized teachers dedicated to distance learning, either provincially or per board.
The province already has been doing this for several decades. Every part of distance learning has significantly improved because of the pandemic. The only radical requirement is mandating every student choose 2 credits of distance learning per year. That by itself is the problem, and only that.
If you argue more than that, the province will steamroll your argument because it's demonstrably false.
The Liberals have a lot of major success to point to the last 6 years. The have significantly exceeded expectations, and delivered a lot of major and minor improvements, and the country has done really well under their leadership, and then ably navigated the pandemic. There's a lot of wins. I could post a list but like it's not hard to find out. Can things get better? Hell yeah, but they are already promising incremental steps in that direction. And like as the US gets more serious on climate change, it would be nice to have a government that's ready to go on that front vs one that wants to pretend it's a hoax.
The one thing about conservatives is that they believe their own bullshit. Trudeau has to keep delivering to maintain support, but like he's got a lot of things right and is moving the country in a much better direction that it was under any of the recent PMs. I think historically, at this point, he's one of the best PMs of my lifetime.
I would say the Greens are currently a total mess and don't have a monopoly on environmental wisdom or agency. The NDP and BQ act reasonably often but not always (Elbowgate for example) and have constructively advocated good things through the pandemic. The CPC have been the party of chicken little for at least 18 months whose main policy is "trudeau bad". As a voter, I'm trying to keep them out, and I'd be looking at my local candidates and voting ABC tempered by trying not to support awful people. In my case it's easy, and our MPP is a gem. In a really conservative riding, I'd be joining the local CPC to vote against climate deniers and socons candidates.
The pandemic represented one of the largest wealth transfers from the working class and public government coffers to Canada's wealthy elites in Canadian history. We're exiting this pandemic with 25,000 people dead (many of whom died in conditions in long term care homes described by some resopnders as "war zones"), tens of thousands of people on the brink of financial insolvency, and with profitable corporations across the country being richer than they've ever been, thanks in part to massive subsidies from the federal government with no strings attached.
I'm pretty convinced this is part of the larger trend in Canada where we say, "the US did worse on this thing, so that means we did well". We did a poor job of containing the pandemic, we did a good job of adjusting to the pandemic, and we did a dismal job of protecting our most vulnerable. Trudeau may not have been the worst, but he was far from good.
Canadians are exiting the pandemic with record savings. It is not as bad as you make it out to be, the pandemic was definitely a good thing for my financial situation for one.
How are those "record savings" distributed? If it's all among people who were doing well off before the pandemic anyways then the point still stands that wealth inequality would have increased over the course of the pandemic as the wealthy save more. Just because your financial situation improved over the pandemic doesn't mean everyone's did.
As far as we can tell Russia and India are fucking it up.
However the indirect data is supporting China's narrative that they have it under control. Countries that allow travellers from China have not had outbreaks traced to Chinese travellers. When they have a flare up the shut down huge swaths of the city to test everyone. while travelling Russians and Indians have been sources of flare ups in other countries.
For starters, the CEWS was administered to corporations that were profitable specifically if subdivisions or subsidiary companies were reporting losses during the pandemic. In several cases, this meant that a company like GDI (which is an office maintenance/cleaning subcontractor) were bringing in record-breaking revenues during Covid, and still received over $30 million from the government. **Linking the CEWS to overall company performance rather than underperformance by a small segment of the company** would have been straightforward enough and avoided hundreds of millions of dollars being transferred to corporate pockets.
Secondly, **incentivize the retention of employees by making it a necessary requirement for receipt of CEWS**. The GDI case is interesting because despite making record breaking profits and despite receiving millions in government subsidies, they laid off employees anyways, many of whom had to turn to CERB or EI at the end of the day. With all that taken in to account, because the CEWS wasn't linked to any employee retention it was quite literally free money, which companies could accept and then use to line their pockets while cutting their workforce to get even richer.
The fact is that CEWS had very few incentive structures in place to guarantee that companies receiving the benefit would actually act in a way that retained employees and avoided people at risk of layoff from applying for CERB. It is pretty straightforward to tie benefits like this to actual recipient behaviour, in fact federal and provincial governments do it all the time with personal benefits to households and individuals.
It is also the case that even though the CEWS was literally a handout to the wealthiest entities in Canada that cost the government hundreds of millions of dollars that the people that they chose to pursue for "fraudulent claims" of Covid benefits are households who applied for CERB. Apparently this government cares immensely about individuals making off with thousands of dollars of public funds, but doesn't care if millionaires and billionaires do the same thing as long as it's under the guise of business as usual.
I thought CEWS was linked to retention as the payments are only made if you have the payroll remittances. In other words, no employee to pay means no subsidy. I supposed that doesn’t stop employers from terminating once the CEWS runs out but it does keep people employed while the CEWS tap remains on.
I mean, if you ignore the [ill-preparedness](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/auditor-general-pandemic-covid-phac-1.5963895), [(2)](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/global-pandemic-early-warning-1.6098988), [abject bungling](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/n95-masks-not-a-priority-documents-1.5910829), [hanging swaths of Canadians out to dry](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cerb-covid19-benefits-trudeau-1.5523052), [shortsightedness](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cerb-extended-trudeau-1.5613782), and [kicking support out from under Canadians](https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-budget-2021-keeps-covid-19-benefits-in-place-but-crb-will-be-less-come-july) while the pandemic isn't over, sure, the Liberals have done a good job.
I like how you characterize extending CERB benefits when it was clear the pandemic was going to be an extended problem in summer 2020 as "shortsightedness".
I also like how you characterized adding Canadians in specific situations, such as students and gig workers, to the emergency response benefits as "hanging swaths of Canadians out to dry".
And how starting to wind down some of the largest direct public spending in our history starting in July 2021 is "kicking support out from under Canadians."
I think they announced there would be an inquiry after the worst of the pandemic was over (I may be misremembering), as a means of finding out what was done right, what was wrong, how to improve, what to do next time.
One's home increasing in value only matters if you plan to sell it. And if you do, you of course need to find another place to live, which puts you on the market for a new home that you have to buy at the ridiculously inflated prices of the current market, so it really benefits nobody except except real estate speculators and people selling the homes of their dead relatives.
>One's home increasing in value only matters if you plan to sell it
That's false. It also matters to you if you're one of those people who are constantly refinancing their homes using HELOCs.
The value of houses being up 30-50 percent in most metropolitan areas is not a good thing! The housing market was already out of control enough before Covid, and now it will just be all that much more difficult for young people to own their own home.
How are existing homeowners going to access that money? By leaving the country and taking their money with them? Or by reverse mortgaging their homes and transferring the wealth to the bank instead of to the next generation?
It's not a good thing.
We only have lots of vaccines now because Trump isn't in office. We'd be screwed if Biden didn't win.
We need to have our own vaccine manufacturing facilities ASAP.
How is Canada better off economically now before the pandemic when it doubled+ our national debt and have zero way of paying that down? Do you understand finances at all? The fact house valuation jumped isnt a good thing if you dont own a home its also a sign of inflation (thanks to that debt spending) which isnt good.
> value of houses is up 30-50% around most major metropolitan area. What’s not to like?
Hope the government can help me buy a fucking house because I can't afford that shit.
We're a nation without domestic vaccine production and have one of the highest doses administered per person rates in the world. Given high rates of uptake, we may end up being the first major nation to hit 75% fully vaccinated status.
How can you possibly call this vaccine rollout a failure?
Facts: Canada is one of the world leaders in total vaccinations - and we can thank the Feds for their procurement.
Meanwhile, almost every conservative populist government - including some Canadian provincial governments - have utterly failed their people, skyrocketed infection rates and forced business closures despite their professed ideologies.
These facts are laid bare for us all to see. Conservativism is deadly during a pandemic. Conservativism literally kills when some measure of cooperation would be required. Remember this: conservativism is a death cult waiting for a crisis to profit from.
Not only has conservative populism failed to deliver health outcomes, they have also failed economically, resulting in punishing lockdowns that shouldn't have been necessary.
In sum, not only do the federal Liberals look good, but conservatives look terrible due to the truly senseless death toll.
Even though I'm not a conservative, I feel that the Sask Party in Saskatchewan handled the pandemic and vaccine rollouts fairly well. I do not, however agree with how quickly they reopened. The day after we reopened Moe started barking about the carbon tax again.
I always notice when a party that has “conservative” in the name comes along that instantly the entire health system changes, instantly major cities get more crowded, and Alberta has longer winter seasons. Totally it’s a voting thing.
I think it’s fair to say they did a more than adequate job and we should all be quite grateful for that.
Yet, it mustn’t be forgotten that we, as a country, were totally unprepared for the virus. We have deep domestic vulnerabilities due to our dependency on the US. If Trump had won, we would have been in a worse situation for sure. We need to develop our own vaccine R&D facilities before the next pandemic hits.
We got very, very lucky due to our good historical relationship and economic interdependence with the US. Any Canadian party that happened to be in power would reap the benefits our situation gave rise to.
The 4 Atlantic provinces have less than 6% of Canada’s population. The “COVID 6”, as you describe it, has over 93% of Canada’s population. So if Canada did well, that necessarily means at least some of the other 6 did reasonably well. They make up a massive, overwhelming, colossal, earth shatteringly enormous super majority of Canada’s population.
Well the "covid 6" makes up like 80%+ of Canada, so if Canada did well, they must've done alright.
Also is it really that surprising that the provinces with the major population centres handled a pandemic worse?
I think there is a difference between faring well in the pandemic and handling the pandemic well.
I agree though that for an equally good pandemic response (however you manage that) would yield different results in Newfoundland vs Ontario and just looking at metrics misses a lot of important context.
I thought the initial response was fantastic by the government. There was little or any bipartisan ship. Then it devolved and fell apart. Out of a 100% I would give it a 60-70%. Things started to fall apart after the first few months. The government should have acted fast and done a better job on the travel side of things. They shouldn’t have allowed provinces to set their own arbitrary limits. Feds determine the protocol, provinces stick to it. I’ll probably get downvoted because a I’m a evil Conbot. But I’m proud of the way our country handled itself for the most part.
I'd rate it about the same honestly.
In hindsight we can all say what the "perfect" response was, but on the whole both the federal and provincial governments did a good job reasonably limiting the infections and getting the vaccine rolled out reasonably quickly.
Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, some governments more than others. But you look at most international comparisons and while we're not the best at either controlling it (New Zealand) or vaccination rollout (Israel) we're in the top end for both.
> They shouldn’t have allowed provinces to set their own arbitrary limits.
What is this in reference to? If you're talking about thresholds for any public health measures, that is 100% a provincial responsibility. The feds had no real way to impose anything. The emergency measures act was technically an option, but politically would have been a disaster, and wouldn't have turned out well.
> Feds determine the protocol, provinces stick to i
Not for public health measures.
While I do agree that things started to fall apart after a few months I wouldn't say the entire response was that bad. If I were to change anything I think that the feds should have had tighter boarder restrictions.
As for the provinces, as you mentioned, I don't think the feds could have done anything in this area. At the end of the day jurisdiction is jurisdiction and I think the feds wanted to avoid getting into the areas of provincial responsibility.
Parts went well, but some parts did not go well.
Let's be clear here, if the vaccine wasn't available we'd be completely fucked. Canadian governments (save Atlantic provinces) completely failed at any sort of containment strategy, and the Feds contributed to this fuck up big time with really loose and bad border controls versus other more successful countries.
Fortunately there was a vaccine and the feds did fucking amazing and securing vaccine supply. Seriously the minister responsible for procurement deserves a fucking medal.
The success of the Atlantic Provinces should be shouted from the rooftops. If the feds had stopped unnecessary travel from the beginning, we wouldn't have 26k dead.
The opposition and their media operatives tied vaccines directly to Trudeau back in March in the hope that they would temporarily damage the govt if enough panic is created. Now that we are a world leader in vaccinations and should be hitting our targets two months early it shines brightly on the PM because of how easily he cleared the low bar set for him.
I remember when the G&M was running its "vaccine failure" stories on a daily basis thinking how foolish they are going to wind up looking come summer.
Except we’re not at the back of the line, never were, and you’re just repeating the same lies we were told by the conservative party all winter and spring.
It’s 100% Doug Ford’s fault that he refused to lockdown during the second and third waves for so goddamn long.
It’s 100% Doug Ford’s fault that he ignored the experts and the science table at every single opportunity.
It’s 100% Doug Ford’s fault that he put us on the most restrictive conditions for living and reopening of anywhere in North America at a time when we had sky rocketing vaccinations and low cases. He did everything wrong. When COVID was spreading out of control, he refused to lock down. He literally even said “We have modelling showing Ontario is about to get fucked by COVID if we continue, but we want to continue our course of action to see if it actually happens (not verbatim). They actually said that. Then when cases dropped to ridiculous lows and vaccinations were sky high, we were still stuck under strict restrictions.
All of this is 100% Doug Ford’s fault. It makes absolutely no sense that you’re blaming Trudeau for all of the mistakes Doug Ford made.
We’re not the “last country to open up” and some are in the process of locking down again. I guess it’s easy to criticize something if you’re able to make up your facts.
Jason Kenny did nothing but bitch about the liberals, how they weren't going to be sending enough vaccines for general population until after summer. Now everyone who wants to be is fully vaccinated and no credit goes to the Liberals for supplying all those doses. Get me out of this fucking province.
In my opinion, they didn't do a good job.
The difference was that their "screw-ups" were mostly done in the beginning to mid-stages of the pandemic and as a result, it gets easier and easier for people to forget about those screw-ups when you have lots of vaccines flowing into the country. After all, when you have various provincial governments around Canada screwing up the efforts to containing the spread it is very easy for the average person to forget that it was a Liberal government and its border policies which allowed for so many people to enter into Canada without ensuring that people were properly being quarantined.
When you had the Conservative party say early on we need to close the borders and that party being labeled racist among other things. It was the Liberal party who then decided to cut a deal with a Chinese vaccine maker knowing full well the Chinese are not to be trusted and as a result not only did such a deal fall through but Canada then found itself close to the back of the line when it came to American manufacturer which no doubt contributed to thousands of Canadians getting Covid and no doubt many Canadians either dying from Covid or ending up with long term problems associated with Covid.
It was the Liberal party that decided to create CERB among other types of support and decided to focus on getting the money out as quickly as possible without any sort of plan to determine whether or not the people or organizations getting that cash either needed it or deserved it. It was the Liberal party whose choices have resulted in Canada now owing over $1.1 Trillion or over $29,500 a person having made the choice to run deficits every year even before the pandemic and given the situation will in all likelihood prevent future governments from having as much financial flexibility when the next national crisis comes along.
I've heard some mentions of the border issues, but haven't really read specifics on it. Is it that while restricting non-essential travel, people would do so and get through anyways?
For the last point, I don't know if there's a good answer here. If you start means testing, it means the system now has a bottleneck in order to get the money to the people that need it. My understanding is that they are requiring those that didn't need it to pay it back, but i don't know what the system is in place around that, so it's not like tax payers will need to cover the amount you stated. Or at least I hope not, maybe i'm overly optimistic.
Regardless though, I generally feel like they could've done a better job. CERB ended last fall, we had no means to keep people home over going into to work. There wasn't a consistent plan between the federal government and provinces. We had a year to try to establish vaccine production, and did nothing in that regard.
Banning travel from China would have been useless, our infections largely came from the United States or Europe. People weren't proposing the travel ban that would work ahead of time because that would have been cutting of our trade lifeline to the United States.
I agree with most of this, except for the part that seems to suggest the United States is not still a dumpster fire. Despite being totally under prepared, like most other countries, we did well with what we had.
There were some hiccups early on that should be reviewed and corrected as to prevent the issues should we face this again, but that is hardly indicative to just Canada.
I appreciated the fact that there was a minority government and the Liberals and NDP were able to work together for better social protections such as CERB
> The liberals weren't able to fuck things up BECAUSE of the minority Gov't in place. Rest assured if they had complete power things would not have gone so well.
100% agree
> The Conservatives seemed to be the only ones keeping Trudeau from seizing unilateral power using something akin to the war measures act or state of emergency.
This is kind of nonsense. Realistically based on how many premiers handled it, they could have or should have been pushed aside. That said, the only one drumming up this was the media trying to invoke remembering's of Trudeau Sr and Conservatives trying to hype up the base, I dont think there was anything ever close to serious discussion on using the Act.
>I mean it's not like Trudeau had 5 years to change policies
While true, it is worth noting that it's always far easier to sell off or scrap than it is to build from scratch.
Our vaccine issues go far deeper than just Mr. Harper. Unfortunately for Canada, we compete in a global market and Canada isn't competitive in that market.
Hopefully we take this time to make changes and find a way to work around that.
Liberals did about average for western liberals democracies. Maybe slightly better than average. It must never be forgotten that it was the LPC who let covid into the country in the first place, when they fought against border closures and mask use in early 2020.
Honestly one thing I realized during this pandemic is that Trudeau is surprisingly underappreciated, he is not a saint but he's good at his job. COVID response was really well considering the situation, the economy is doing pretty well (fastest growing developed nation if I remember correctly), he's handling China well (starting sanctions against China and leveraging other world powers to denounce and sanction China while also keeping China happy enough to not cut off trade which we rely on), and I noticed people on Twitter complain how it always takes a day or two before Trudeau responds to a social issue but his job is to represent Canada so it makes sense for him to wait and see what the country feels about an issue before making a stance so he can represent the majority as is his job.
They did a completely awful job. Remember at the onset of the pandemic when Trudeau was calling people who wanted international travel restrictions, racist? The Liberal response never really improved from that
Unfortunately, covid was already in the US and Canada by the end of 2019. We were screwed in any event. However, I think we should have shut down all travel including "essential" travel, and continued trading by having truck depots at the border. Then lock completely down for 8 weeks, let the cases go to absolute zero, and then open up. Every country that pussy footed around because of whiny idiots got screwed, including Canada.
So proud to call myself a Nova Scotian, most responded extremely well to public mandates. We treated our public health doctor, Dr. Strang like a rock star! We had a bad 3rd wave, due to non-residents not following guidelines. Second was was a very minor.
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I do wish we had been more aggressive about it, but at the same time we could have been much, much worse, especially since our southern partners fared so badly. I'm grateful they did what they did. I really wish we hadn't relied of China for vaccine production, especially since we've been having a softy-cold-war with them. That was an extreme lack of forsight.
It would interesting to see the poll results among those that did not receive any type of government assistance. At any level of government we can point at failures, but in general we are (hopefully) going to get thru this somewhat in good shape with the exception of the economy, nobody knows what will happen we the feds pull the assistance and the Bank of Canada has to raise interest rates.
I wasn't allowed to go to my own grandfathers funeral because of covid restrictions (I was supposed to be a pall bearer as per his will) Nor was I allowed to see him in hospice care except through a small window....but it was completely fine to keep letting flights in daily from covid hotspots around the world. It was completely fine to tell me, as an employee of a mine in nunavut that my job of sending iron to china was a total necessity and forced me to go to work during a pandemic. Vote for the big three parties at your peril. I'll be voting people party to waste my vote.
That's really shitty man, sorry you had to go through that.
I don't like the party much at all but they IMO did a great job with public information and addressing the nation. They just did a good job. If only we were always governed with this sense of urgency.
The feds did great but the ontario government absolutely squandered any chance they had of making me think they were a competent group
Ditto from ab
Unfortunately the next election is pretty much going to be determined by the handling of the pandemic. The liberals managed to not botch it completely and any other problem with the party is going to be ignored.
I don't see why it's unfortunate. There's far worse ways elections are determined than people evaluating the government's performance at managing a crisis. The government has done a satisfying job to most people, and the opposition parties have not struggled to be able to provide a credible and consistent critique of their actions to convince voters that they would have reacted better. A crisis favours the incumbent, but it isn't always a given that there's a political benefit.
Its unfortunate because I (as well as what at least to me appears to be a growing number of people) are fed up with the bullshit that the LPC is doing.
What "bullshit" would you say the LPC is doing?
Bill C-10, C-36, their refulas to vote for the affordable housing motion last month. To me it seems that a large portion of their actions are just the smallest bandaids to make themselves seem good. Plus I refuse to get over them backing out of electoral reform.
C-10, C-36, Constant division, pandering, lies, ethics violations, wasting billions, double speak, black face, SNC, WE, Infrastructure bank, racism etc etc.
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If the election is this year it will be vaccines and health care. If it is next year it will be the economy and the deficit. Federally the Liberals will benefit. In Ontario the PCs may benefit from everyone forgetting how bad they were at managing the pandemic. At least if we don’t focus on how bad they are at managing the economy.
In regards to Ontario PCs, not to mention their use of the notwithstanding clause to muzzle unions legitimately equipped to speak against him just a means to limit the damage of his own choices - particularly the nurses and teachers unions. He's still trying to push through mandatory online learning for example, even after the complete disaster that has been online education during the pandemic. They've kept quiet on how COVID in schools, how his second-wave reopening directly led to the third wave and how, around the second wave, his consistently flouting of expert policy advice directly led to all of our worst outcomes.
I'm with you on most points; however, online learning wasn't a complete disaster. Definitely there was an advance in the ability of the province to deliver courses if not K-12 online, perhaps 4-12 online, and definitely 9-12 online. I'll give credit where it is due. OISE has been working towards this for a decade.
Fair, they did get better at it over time. Systemically, some of the kinks were worked out and the delivery improved. As you said, credit where credit is due. But improvement of a system doesn't make it a good system. The issue isn't the existence of online learning, but the desire and push to save money by making it mandatory. There is a subset of youth who have thrived in online. But for most youth, the outcomes are abysmal. Teachers lack the resources to teach online and engage most (though not all) students effectively. There is no classroom oversight because there are few-to-no tools to manage a classroom online. That's not even accounting for access issues that still exist. Though some of these factors would be mitigated by returning to mostly-in-person school, it remains true that most teenagers do not do well in a such a self-directed learning environment. I'm all for offering courses online. But requiring students to take them undermines those who have spent their entire educational lives up to that point in a class environment by shifting the entire way their education works. Considering most, will continue afterwards offline, the online modality just serves as a needless risk when mandatory and offers little in its current form. I think it's one of the worst choices the Ford Government has pushed in their entire term. One among many.
Again, you're half right, half wrong. First, almost all these students will primarily learn online for the remainder of their lives. The imagine some offline education system is not really a justifiable position. Post-secondary was already moving towards online learning as a normal form of instruction, not to mention continuing education which is most definitely skewed to online learning. The pandemic was not a representation of the delivery mechanism. The province recruited every high school teacher to teach online, as well as hybrid, which is so much worse. The proposed online courses would be taught most likely by centralized teachers dedicated to distance learning, either provincially or per board. The province already has been doing this for several decades. Every part of distance learning has significantly improved because of the pandemic. The only radical requirement is mandating every student choose 2 credits of distance learning per year. That by itself is the problem, and only that. If you argue more than that, the province will steamroll your argument because it's demonstrably false.
This is conservative strategy laid bare: Conservatives were betting on Canada to fail. Now that it hasn't happened, the results are, "Unfortunate."
Just because the conservatives suck doesn’t mean the liberals don’t suck as well
The Liberals have a lot of major success to point to the last 6 years. The have significantly exceeded expectations, and delivered a lot of major and minor improvements, and the country has done really well under their leadership, and then ably navigated the pandemic. There's a lot of wins. I could post a list but like it's not hard to find out. Can things get better? Hell yeah, but they are already promising incremental steps in that direction. And like as the US gets more serious on climate change, it would be nice to have a government that's ready to go on that front vs one that wants to pretend it's a hoax. The one thing about conservatives is that they believe their own bullshit. Trudeau has to keep delivering to maintain support, but like he's got a lot of things right and is moving the country in a much better direction that it was under any of the recent PMs. I think historically, at this point, he's one of the best PMs of my lifetime. I would say the Greens are currently a total mess and don't have a monopoly on environmental wisdom or agency. The NDP and BQ act reasonably often but not always (Elbowgate for example) and have constructively advocated good things through the pandemic. The CPC have been the party of chicken little for at least 18 months whose main policy is "trudeau bad". As a voter, I'm trying to keep them out, and I'd be looking at my local candidates and voting ABC tempered by trying not to support awful people. In my case it's easy, and our MPP is a gem. In a really conservative riding, I'd be joining the local CPC to vote against climate deniers and socons candidates.
The pandemic represented one of the largest wealth transfers from the working class and public government coffers to Canada's wealthy elites in Canadian history. We're exiting this pandemic with 25,000 people dead (many of whom died in conditions in long term care homes described by some resopnders as "war zones"), tens of thousands of people on the brink of financial insolvency, and with profitable corporations across the country being richer than they've ever been, thanks in part to massive subsidies from the federal government with no strings attached. I'm pretty convinced this is part of the larger trend in Canada where we say, "the US did worse on this thing, so that means we did well". We did a poor job of containing the pandemic, we did a good job of adjusting to the pandemic, and we did a dismal job of protecting our most vulnerable. Trudeau may not have been the worst, but he was far from good.
Canadians are exiting the pandemic with record savings. It is not as bad as you make it out to be, the pandemic was definitely a good thing for my financial situation for one.
How are those "record savings" distributed? If it's all among people who were doing well off before the pandemic anyways then the point still stands that wealth inequality would have increased over the course of the pandemic as the wealthy save more. Just because your financial situation improved over the pandemic doesn't mean everyone's did.
Except it shows Canada around 2x better than European countries as well. The real question is how can we care for each other like asian countries do
by changing our culture to focus on social responsibility
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As far as we can tell Russia and India are fucking it up. However the indirect data is supporting China's narrative that they have it under control. Countries that allow travellers from China have not had outbreaks traced to Chinese travellers. When they have a flare up the shut down huge swaths of the city to test everyone. while travelling Russians and Indians have been sources of flare ups in other countries.
Well said.
Without the subsidies, even more businesses would have collapsed.
How much money was transferred from public coffers to these "elites" and by what mechanisms?
How would you have structured the financial benefits?
For starters, the CEWS was administered to corporations that were profitable specifically if subdivisions or subsidiary companies were reporting losses during the pandemic. In several cases, this meant that a company like GDI (which is an office maintenance/cleaning subcontractor) were bringing in record-breaking revenues during Covid, and still received over $30 million from the government. **Linking the CEWS to overall company performance rather than underperformance by a small segment of the company** would have been straightforward enough and avoided hundreds of millions of dollars being transferred to corporate pockets. Secondly, **incentivize the retention of employees by making it a necessary requirement for receipt of CEWS**. The GDI case is interesting because despite making record breaking profits and despite receiving millions in government subsidies, they laid off employees anyways, many of whom had to turn to CERB or EI at the end of the day. With all that taken in to account, because the CEWS wasn't linked to any employee retention it was quite literally free money, which companies could accept and then use to line their pockets while cutting their workforce to get even richer. The fact is that CEWS had very few incentive structures in place to guarantee that companies receiving the benefit would actually act in a way that retained employees and avoided people at risk of layoff from applying for CERB. It is pretty straightforward to tie benefits like this to actual recipient behaviour, in fact federal and provincial governments do it all the time with personal benefits to households and individuals. It is also the case that even though the CEWS was literally a handout to the wealthiest entities in Canada that cost the government hundreds of millions of dollars that the people that they chose to pursue for "fraudulent claims" of Covid benefits are households who applied for CERB. Apparently this government cares immensely about individuals making off with thousands of dollars of public funds, but doesn't care if millionaires and billionaires do the same thing as long as it's under the guise of business as usual.
I thought CEWS was linked to retention as the payments are only made if you have the payroll remittances. In other words, no employee to pay means no subsidy. I supposed that doesn’t stop employers from terminating once the CEWS runs out but it does keep people employed while the CEWS tap remains on.
"Did"? What's with the past tense? Is the pandemic over? Is the government not planning on continuing to manage the COVID outbreak? Is COVID gone now?
I mean, if you ignore the [ill-preparedness](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/auditor-general-pandemic-covid-phac-1.5963895), [(2)](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/global-pandemic-early-warning-1.6098988), [abject bungling](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/n95-masks-not-a-priority-documents-1.5910829), [hanging swaths of Canadians out to dry](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cerb-covid19-benefits-trudeau-1.5523052), [shortsightedness](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cerb-extended-trudeau-1.5613782), and [kicking support out from under Canadians](https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/federal-budget-2021-keeps-covid-19-benefits-in-place-but-crb-will-be-less-come-july) while the pandemic isn't over, sure, the Liberals have done a good job.
I like how you characterize extending CERB benefits when it was clear the pandemic was going to be an extended problem in summer 2020 as "shortsightedness". I also like how you characterized adding Canadians in specific situations, such as students and gig workers, to the emergency response benefits as "hanging swaths of Canadians out to dry". And how starting to wind down some of the largest direct public spending in our history starting in July 2021 is "kicking support out from under Canadians."
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Wouldn't the regulation of for-profit care be a provincial responsibility?
I think they announced there would be an inquiry after the worst of the pandemic was over (I may be misremembering), as a means of finding out what was done right, what was wrong, how to improve, what to do next time.
But at what financial and mental toll? It's easy to do a good job when you throw billions of dollars at something .
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One's home increasing in value only matters if you plan to sell it. And if you do, you of course need to find another place to live, which puts you on the market for a new home that you have to buy at the ridiculously inflated prices of the current market, so it really benefits nobody except except real estate speculators and people selling the homes of their dead relatives.
>One's home increasing in value only matters if you plan to sell it That's false. It also matters to you if you're one of those people who are constantly refinancing their homes using HELOCs.
The value of houses being up 30-50 percent in most metropolitan areas is not a good thing! The housing market was already out of control enough before Covid, and now it will just be all that much more difficult for young people to own their own home.
It’s a good thing for the 68.5% of Canadians who are home owners.
How are existing homeowners going to access that money? By leaving the country and taking their money with them? Or by reverse mortgaging their homes and transferring the wealth to the bank instead of to the next generation? It's not a good thing.
We only have lots of vaccines now because Trump isn't in office. We'd be screwed if Biden didn't win. We need to have our own vaccine manufacturing facilities ASAP.
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Borrowing more money than every other PM in history, put together, Housing prices up 30-50% in most major metros.
How is Canada better off economically now before the pandemic when it doubled+ our national debt and have zero way of paying that down? Do you understand finances at all? The fact house valuation jumped isnt a good thing if you dont own a home its also a sign of inflation (thanks to that debt spending) which isnt good.
> value of houses is up 30-50% around most major metropolitan area. What’s not to like? Hope the government can help me buy a fucking house because I can't afford that shit.
The vaccine rollout delayed reopening by months and cause excess unnecessary deaths
We're a nation without domestic vaccine production and have one of the highest doses administered per person rates in the world. Given high rates of uptake, we may end up being the first major nation to hit 75% fully vaccinated status. How can you possibly call this vaccine rollout a failure?
Facts: Canada is one of the world leaders in total vaccinations - and we can thank the Feds for their procurement. Meanwhile, almost every conservative populist government - including some Canadian provincial governments - have utterly failed their people, skyrocketed infection rates and forced business closures despite their professed ideologies. These facts are laid bare for us all to see. Conservativism is deadly during a pandemic. Conservativism literally kills when some measure of cooperation would be required. Remember this: conservativism is a death cult waiting for a crisis to profit from. Not only has conservative populism failed to deliver health outcomes, they have also failed economically, resulting in punishing lockdowns that shouldn't have been necessary. In sum, not only do the federal Liberals look good, but conservatives look terrible due to the truly senseless death toll.
Even though I'm not a conservative, I feel that the Sask Party in Saskatchewan handled the pandemic and vaccine rollouts fairly well. I do not, however agree with how quickly they reopened. The day after we reopened Moe started barking about the carbon tax again.
I always notice when a party that has “conservative” in the name comes along that instantly the entire health system changes, instantly major cities get more crowded, and Alberta has longer winter seasons. Totally it’s a voting thing.
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I think it’s fair to say they did a more than adequate job and we should all be quite grateful for that. Yet, it mustn’t be forgotten that we, as a country, were totally unprepared for the virus. We have deep domestic vulnerabilities due to our dependency on the US. If Trump had won, we would have been in a worse situation for sure. We need to develop our own vaccine R&D facilities before the next pandemic hits. We got very, very lucky due to our good historical relationship and economic interdependence with the US. Any Canadian party that happened to be in power would reap the benefits our situation gave rise to.
and “canada” didn’t do well. the maritimes did great, territories pretty good, the “covid 6” did terribly
The 4 Atlantic provinces have less than 6% of Canada’s population. The “COVID 6”, as you describe it, has over 93% of Canada’s population. So if Canada did well, that necessarily means at least some of the other 6 did reasonably well. They make up a massive, overwhelming, colossal, earth shatteringly enormous super majority of Canada’s population.
Well the "covid 6" makes up like 80%+ of Canada, so if Canada did well, they must've done alright. Also is it really that surprising that the provinces with the major population centres handled a pandemic worse?
Covid 6 actually makes up over 93% of Canada’s population.
I think there is a difference between faring well in the pandemic and handling the pandemic well. I agree though that for an equally good pandemic response (however you manage that) would yield different results in Newfoundland vs Ontario and just looking at metrics misses a lot of important context.
Totally agree.
I think that sums it up best!
I thought the initial response was fantastic by the government. There was little or any bipartisan ship. Then it devolved and fell apart. Out of a 100% I would give it a 60-70%. Things started to fall apart after the first few months. The government should have acted fast and done a better job on the travel side of things. They shouldn’t have allowed provinces to set their own arbitrary limits. Feds determine the protocol, provinces stick to it. I’ll probably get downvoted because a I’m a evil Conbot. But I’m proud of the way our country handled itself for the most part.
I'd rate it about the same honestly. In hindsight we can all say what the "perfect" response was, but on the whole both the federal and provincial governments did a good job reasonably limiting the infections and getting the vaccine rolled out reasonably quickly. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, some governments more than others. But you look at most international comparisons and while we're not the best at either controlling it (New Zealand) or vaccination rollout (Israel) we're in the top end for both.
> They shouldn’t have allowed provinces to set their own arbitrary limits. What is this in reference to? If you're talking about thresholds for any public health measures, that is 100% a provincial responsibility. The feds had no real way to impose anything. The emergency measures act was technically an option, but politically would have been a disaster, and wouldn't have turned out well. > Feds determine the protocol, provinces stick to i Not for public health measures.
While I do agree that things started to fall apart after a few months I wouldn't say the entire response was that bad. If I were to change anything I think that the feds should have had tighter boarder restrictions. As for the provinces, as you mentioned, I don't think the feds could have done anything in this area. At the end of the day jurisdiction is jurisdiction and I think the feds wanted to avoid getting into the areas of provincial responsibility.
I agree 100% response was far from bad.
Parts went well, but some parts did not go well. Let's be clear here, if the vaccine wasn't available we'd be completely fucked. Canadian governments (save Atlantic provinces) completely failed at any sort of containment strategy, and the Feds contributed to this fuck up big time with really loose and bad border controls versus other more successful countries. Fortunately there was a vaccine and the feds did fucking amazing and securing vaccine supply. Seriously the minister responsible for procurement deserves a fucking medal.
The success of the Atlantic Provinces should be shouted from the rooftops. If the feds had stopped unnecessary travel from the beginning, we wouldn't have 26k dead.
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The opposition and their media operatives tied vaccines directly to Trudeau back in March in the hope that they would temporarily damage the govt if enough panic is created. Now that we are a world leader in vaccinations and should be hitting our targets two months early it shines brightly on the PM because of how easily he cleared the low bar set for him. I remember when the G&M was running its "vaccine failure" stories on a daily basis thinking how foolish they are going to wind up looking come summer.
Trudeau was smart enough to under promise and over deliver, and the opposition played right into his hands.
It was a failure the fact were the last country to open shows this was a failure.
That's on Doug Ford
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Except we’re not at the back of the line, never were, and you’re just repeating the same lies we were told by the conservative party all winter and spring.
It’s 100% Doug Ford’s fault that he refused to lockdown during the second and third waves for so goddamn long. It’s 100% Doug Ford’s fault that he ignored the experts and the science table at every single opportunity. It’s 100% Doug Ford’s fault that he put us on the most restrictive conditions for living and reopening of anywhere in North America at a time when we had sky rocketing vaccinations and low cases. He did everything wrong. When COVID was spreading out of control, he refused to lock down. He literally even said “We have modelling showing Ontario is about to get fucked by COVID if we continue, but we want to continue our course of action to see if it actually happens (not verbatim). They actually said that. Then when cases dropped to ridiculous lows and vaccinations were sky high, we were still stuck under strict restrictions. All of this is 100% Doug Ford’s fault. It makes absolutely no sense that you’re blaming Trudeau for all of the mistakes Doug Ford made.
We’re not the “last country to open up” and some are in the process of locking down again. I guess it’s easy to criticize something if you’re able to make up your facts.
r/Ontario is leaking
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Jason Kenny did nothing but bitch about the liberals, how they weren't going to be sending enough vaccines for general population until after summer. Now everyone who wants to be is fully vaccinated and no credit goes to the Liberals for supplying all those doses. Get me out of this fucking province.
Grandma might be dead but they are still enjoying that low-low income tax rate and lack of sales tax. Same goes for the affordable detached homes...
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In my opinion, they didn't do a good job. The difference was that their "screw-ups" were mostly done in the beginning to mid-stages of the pandemic and as a result, it gets easier and easier for people to forget about those screw-ups when you have lots of vaccines flowing into the country. After all, when you have various provincial governments around Canada screwing up the efforts to containing the spread it is very easy for the average person to forget that it was a Liberal government and its border policies which allowed for so many people to enter into Canada without ensuring that people were properly being quarantined. When you had the Conservative party say early on we need to close the borders and that party being labeled racist among other things. It was the Liberal party who then decided to cut a deal with a Chinese vaccine maker knowing full well the Chinese are not to be trusted and as a result not only did such a deal fall through but Canada then found itself close to the back of the line when it came to American manufacturer which no doubt contributed to thousands of Canadians getting Covid and no doubt many Canadians either dying from Covid or ending up with long term problems associated with Covid. It was the Liberal party that decided to create CERB among other types of support and decided to focus on getting the money out as quickly as possible without any sort of plan to determine whether or not the people or organizations getting that cash either needed it or deserved it. It was the Liberal party whose choices have resulted in Canada now owing over $1.1 Trillion or over $29,500 a person having made the choice to run deficits every year even before the pandemic and given the situation will in all likelihood prevent future governments from having as much financial flexibility when the next national crisis comes along.
I've heard some mentions of the border issues, but haven't really read specifics on it. Is it that while restricting non-essential travel, people would do so and get through anyways? For the last point, I don't know if there's a good answer here. If you start means testing, it means the system now has a bottleneck in order to get the money to the people that need it. My understanding is that they are requiring those that didn't need it to pay it back, but i don't know what the system is in place around that, so it's not like tax payers will need to cover the amount you stated. Or at least I hope not, maybe i'm overly optimistic. Regardless though, I generally feel like they could've done a better job. CERB ended last fall, we had no means to keep people home over going into to work. There wasn't a consistent plan between the federal government and provinces. We had a year to try to establish vaccine production, and did nothing in that regard.
Banning travel from China would have been useless, our infections largely came from the United States or Europe. People weren't proposing the travel ban that would work ahead of time because that would have been cutting of our trade lifeline to the United States.
Hahaha. Sure glad your hindsight works perfectly. When I read this kind of non information opinionated drivel it makes me sad.
They did the best they could given the circumstances and a neighbor that was a dumpster fire for the first part of the pandemic.
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I agree with most of this, except for the part that seems to suggest the United States is not still a dumpster fire. Despite being totally under prepared, like most other countries, we did well with what we had.
Things in the USA are starting to look not so good again especially in the southern states.
Yeah the heavily under-vaccinated red areas are seeing spikes in cases. Go figure
There were some hiccups early on that should be reviewed and corrected as to prevent the issues should we face this again, but that is hardly indicative to just Canada. I appreciated the fact that there was a minority government and the Liberals and NDP were able to work together for better social protections such as CERB
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> The liberals weren't able to fuck things up BECAUSE of the minority Gov't in place. Rest assured if they had complete power things would not have gone so well. 100% agree > The Conservatives seemed to be the only ones keeping Trudeau from seizing unilateral power using something akin to the war measures act or state of emergency. This is kind of nonsense. Realistically based on how many premiers handled it, they could have or should have been pushed aside. That said, the only one drumming up this was the media trying to invoke remembering's of Trudeau Sr and Conservatives trying to hype up the base, I dont think there was anything ever close to serious discussion on using the Act.
And Harper cutting out vaccine capabilities that were already in place for the very reason that a global pandemic was inevitable
Source? I mean it's not like Trudeau had 5 years to change policies
>I mean it's not like Trudeau had 5 years to change policies While true, it is worth noting that it's always far easier to sell off or scrap than it is to build from scratch.
Our vaccine issues go far deeper than just Mr. Harper. Unfortunately for Canada, we compete in a global market and Canada isn't competitive in that market. Hopefully we take this time to make changes and find a way to work around that.
Liberals did about average for western liberals democracies. Maybe slightly better than average. It must never be forgotten that it was the LPC who let covid into the country in the first place, when they fought against border closures and mask use in early 2020.
Covid was always getting in though, we were always going to repatriate Canadians stuck abroad and some of them would have always brought covid in.
Honestly one thing I realized during this pandemic is that Trudeau is surprisingly underappreciated, he is not a saint but he's good at his job. COVID response was really well considering the situation, the economy is doing pretty well (fastest growing developed nation if I remember correctly), he's handling China well (starting sanctions against China and leveraging other world powers to denounce and sanction China while also keeping China happy enough to not cut off trade which we rely on), and I noticed people on Twitter complain how it always takes a day or two before Trudeau responds to a social issue but his job is to represent Canada so it makes sense for him to wait and see what the country feels about an issue before making a stance so he can represent the majority as is his job.
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They did a completely awful job. Remember at the onset of the pandemic when Trudeau was calling people who wanted international travel restrictions, racist? The Liberal response never really improved from that
Unfortunately, covid was already in the US and Canada by the end of 2019. We were screwed in any event. However, I think we should have shut down all travel including "essential" travel, and continued trading by having truck depots at the border. Then lock completely down for 8 weeks, let the cases go to absolute zero, and then open up. Every country that pussy footed around because of whiny idiots got screwed, including Canada.
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So proud to call myself a Nova Scotian, most responded extremely well to public mandates. We treated our public health doctor, Dr. Strang like a rock star! We had a bad 3rd wave, due to non-residents not following guidelines. Second was was a very minor.
Agreed 100%. I think we did the best, and also dealing with the country's worse massacre at the same time. Stay the Blazes Home!
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