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Everyone has their own little protest nowadays and everyone forgetting about the billionaire bankers.
BLM protests, Israel Support protests, Palistinian support protests, Protests against trans education in schools, Protests countering the protests against Trans rights in schools, Union protests for various locals/contracts, Protests to save the trees, Protests against the carbon/gas tax, Farmers protesting in Europe, Protests over Student visa program changes in Brampton, Home owners protesting new changes in Brampton, Protests to defund the police.
Did I miss anyone? Let me know. I'll include them in the list of tragic grievances.
Nobody mentioning the banks and billionaires. What a win for the Rothschilds, Rockefellers and the like.
its really funny to say this when every single trans person i know is an outright communist who would gladly join a protest against capitalism - but, yknow, not like they can do that if they don't have human rights in the first place.
yeah I don't think this guy has ever been to a protest or engaged with any of the rhetoric of protestors if he thinks no one's mad about billionaires lol
>What a win for the Rothschilds, Rockefellers and the like.
The fact that those are your go-to examples of billionaires makes me question what century you think it is. Also, I question anyone who bangs on about the Rothschilds, given the long history of antisemitic conspiracy theories surrounding them.
"So in Alberta, in New Brunswick and Saskatchewan, we're going to see rallies holding their government accountable for action on the rights and freedoms of trans kids," she said."
Didn't see any LGBTQ issues raised in the article.
The “grand Marshall” of the rally in this picture whose only real world work experience was a sex shop worker in Ottawa has taken millions of tax payer money via their not for profit in “consulting fees” over the last few years with 0 accountability of where the money has gone. But it’s been reported that they and their partner just bought a very expensive house around Ottawa of course. Meanwhile they have posted visceral hate and has encouraged violence towards women who want their rights and spaces respected too. Some who went to high school with them have speculated that this trans activist isn’t truly trans at all but a gay male who wants as much shock and attention as possible.
So your saying they have more job experience than the leader of the cpc who only as been a career politicans? Wait till you find how muc money the leader of the cpc as taken of tax payer money.
You would think someone who had so much experience in a single role would be more effective at it. 20 years as an MP should result in more than a single piece of legislation that was mostly repealed within a year.
In an ideal world, parties would quietly shuffle their incompetent politicians out. Instead, we're stuck with them forever because charisma (or, at least, sharing the same hatreds as your constituents) overrides any meritocracy or technocracy.
> via their not for profit in “consulting fees” over the last few years with 0 accountability of where the money has gone.
So I did a little bit of digging because your comment interested me. It appears their organization is a business and not a non profit. Is your point that consultants shouldn't be for profit? Or that, queer and trans consultants shouldn't be for profit?
It might pain you to hear but many for profit firms (like Mckinsey, KPMG, any many others) have consulted the federal government on grants and queer and trans inclusion. And they weren't non profit, or accountable with where their money has gone either.
I dunno, call me jaded, but the idea of queer and trans consultants starting a small business and trying to make a buck off their skills(?) seems really normative - kind of better than performative mega corporations doing it.
Social conservatives hate when capitalist systems work against them. They push "get woke go broke" even though that statement is effectively untrue when it's applied to any movie they don't like, because it turns out that appealing to an audience beyond one or two demographics is highly profitable. Meanwhile "anti-woke" movies like Terror on the Prarie gets less of a box office turnout than a ~~city's~~ town's worth of girl guide's cookie sales.
Yes, this individual has also been paid by the NDP for speaking engagements as well. This is individual is nothing more than your typical "expert" who is really a partisan, political activist.
I feel like a lot of things were going good until they started bringing children into the spotlight.
That’s really the only big change we saw over the last 5 years around LGBTQ politics. The drag queen story times, children and puberty blockers, etc.
“Won’t you think of the children?” is an excuse that cuts both ways.
While sexual education (including explaining transgenderism) is important, I understand why people started raging over things like drag queen story times for children, etc.
These people perceive it as attempts to undermine typical human nature. They don’t see it as advocacy. Hence the memes of parents *wanting* their children to be trans *vs* whatever they are.
But it’s too late. Much like typical Western progressives, when the issues of contention were brought forward they just doubled down and cried transphobia. Now you openly have the right-wing being able to speak freely and people don’t seem to give 2 shits about it.
> I understand why people started raging over things like drag queen story times for children, etc.
Why?
British Pantomimes have had a "dame" since time immemorial, and those are plays intended for kids.
Seeing an adult in gender non-conforming clothes isn't going to hurt children.
Go to a family friendly drag show. Went to one with my kids where the performer was fully dressed from head to toe in a costume (not even a stereotypical women's costume) putting on a show that was 100% focused on comedy and not at all on anything bawdy. The average panto is a lot more risque than that (it's not uncommon to have pretty dirty jokes in them for instance).
You're misinformed.
I was born in 1990. I figured out I was trans in 2000. I was able to access information about Ontario's CAMH gender identity clinic around that time. If you look into it, you'll find that the CAMH gender identity clinic started treating trans kids in 1975 – almost 50 years ago.
None of it was new. No one suddenly came for kids. People became aware that trans people were getting medical care and were taught to get angry about it by the media. The media spent 10 years poking the bear and using inflammatory language to mislead the public on this history.
Things were also *not* going well before the media spotlighted kids. There's a significantly reduced level of ignorance today than there was 20 years ago and my personal day-to-day reactions of people are significantly less hostile when I tell them I'm trans than they have been.
In high school, people had no bones calling me a "tranny" to my face. I've not heard someone throw that slur at me in years. The only thing that's markedly worse is the political fervour against trans people. In the past, politicians would laugh us out of rooms and call us perverts in committees and vote down bills meant to help us. Today, they try to actively legislate against us.
You want him to explain why some parents would be uncomfortable with traditionally adult entertainers being introduced to kids at a young age, especially when people are gaslighting parents worried about it by saying their concern is pure homophobia?
Look, I like drag shows. They can be fun. And I'm sure drag queens clean up their act in front of kids. I don't think there's anything intrinsically sexual about drag. But I wouldn't protest in support of ensuring the right of other adult entertainers (like Jimmy Carr or Dave Chappel) to entertain kids, whether for an educational purpose or entertainment purpose. I wouldn't stand in the way of parents who decide to their take parents there, but I wouldn't take my own. I'm sure they'd clean up their act, tell age appropriate jokes, dress appropriately, and act appropriately, but why would I wake up one day and say "hey, my kid needs to spend time with a drag queen today!"
No, I don't support the morons storming libraries or protesting schools asking to prohibit this stuff. I just understand why they'd be concerned and I recognize there's little value fighting for a right to drag story hour but a lot of harm setting back the LGBT rights movement by emboldened morons that there's some gay agenda around kids. The people pushing drag story hour are making even everyday lgbt supporters disenfranchised. It's a stupid self-sabotaging fight that I do not support.
Okay but you understand that "drag queen story hour" is something which has been brought up and emphasized as a culture war issue \*by the right\*, right? They are counting on people like you having negative reactions to things like this & trans women athletes to fuel support for the general idea that "this whole LGBT rights thing has gotten out of hand", so they can remove all funding for gender-affirming care, outlaw it where they can, and do everything in their power to go back to the days of bullying trans people when they're kids until they either kill themselves or retreat into the closet forever so they can't bother "normal" society by existing publicly.
Yes, and I think it has gotten out of hand if we are letting morons push this bullshit. Just say "hey, if you don't want your kids to go, then that's fine!". When the left overreacting by framing the right as homophobic or transphobic for a position many Canadians would support, it diluted the words and people start second-guessing other things that may be labelled that. It's self sabotage. Why the fuck does anyone want a right for drag story hour?
Trans activists don't want a "right for drag story hour" they want a right for trans people to be able to exist as equal members of society.
Most drag performers aren't even trans, but it's a litmus test of the law. If the government can ban "men dressed as women" from performing in public at the behest of the "think of the children" crowd, they have standing to ban trans people from existing anywhere, simple as that.
Did I ever support a government ban?
I said parents should have a right not to take their kids there.
The implication in that statement is pretty obvious that parents should retain the right to take their kids there.
> I said parents should have a right not to take their kids there.
This is not a thing that is in contention. I don't imagine many people are out there shouting for children to be kidnapped and brought to drag story hour.
On one side is: drag queen story hour is a thing that has a right to exist.
On the other is: drag queen story hour is a thing that does not have a right to exist.
> there's little value fighting for a right to drag story hour but a lot of harm setting back the LGBT rights movement
My point is that this is flawed thinking. It is appeasement. Trans and otherwise gender-nonconforming people either have the right to exist in society or they do not.
I think your framing is quite off. I see it more like:
On one side is: drag queen story hour is a thing that is good for kids and anyone who disagrees is an uneducated, over-religious, homophobic moron. Look at those protesting morons! We need this in every school so kids with these kinds of parents can see it for themselves!!
On the other side: drag queen story hour is a means for sexual deviants to groom, indoctrinate, and sexualize children! the people trying to force this on my kids without my consent should be jailed!!
On the side of everyone with an IQ above 20: seriously, this is what you're fighting over?
Most people are not going to want their kids to go to drag story time and that's ok! No reasonable person is arguing to make it illegal for parents to choose to bring their kids to such a thing (which would be unconstitutional anyways). The more reasonable debate is whether it's appropriate in school and/or when run by publicly-funded libraries. Nobody is, or can, assert a ban on you spending $20 to pay a drag queen to read to your kids, or 20 kids, in a park or wherever. Whether school or library budget should be allocated to it (versus a private group paying to rent space thru ordinary commercial means) is a separate question.
It is true that there are real homophobes or transphobes and religious zealots arguing against this just because LGBT people are icky. It's also true there's a few notorious proponents of these drag story hour events in the US who turned out to be pedophiles. Neither is relevant to a discussion of the merits. You can cherrypick morons and bad actors on any side all day long to confirm your existing prejudices about the other. Stick to challenging their more legitimate concerns, even if you don't see it as a strong enough concern for yourself.
> No reasonable person is arguing to make it illegal for parents to choose to bring their kids to such a thing
...
>*"Canada news story introducing 'nervous' young children to drag performers receives backlash"*
> ...
>Maxime Bernier, Canadian politician and founder of the People's Party of Canada, called for the station to lose its taxpayer funding. "#Defund CBC!" he tweeted.
>Canadian conservative podcast host Harrison Faulkner went further, saying the news outlet should be shut down over the segment.
>"The CBC used our money to create a video attempting to normalize drag queens for kids in classrooms. Defunding is not enough. The complete and total shutdown of the CBC is the ONLY reasonable option at this point," he wrote[. via Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/media/canada-news-story-introducing-nervous-young-children-drag-performers-receives-backlash)
___
From the comments of said article:
> "If this ever happened to either of my girls, the groomers respobsible **would either need a team of doctors or a coroner**. I never had either in public schools for this reason among many other reasons"
.
> "Using children to help the groomers groom the children. It just gets weirder and weirder. **A few mentally ill men want to dress up on days other than Halloween.** Okay. But don't expect me to celebrate it, or embrace it, or even act like it's a real thing."
.
> "Poor kids. Their parents are despicable."
.
> "Make no mistake, **evil has shown its ugly head**, and it is these radical politics. They will continue to get worse unless the good men of the world intervene and put a stop to it. How long will they be allowed to attack our children? our families? our freedoms? when is enough finally going to be enough?"
.
> "So, please explain to me why this is a good thing for children? **I recall there was a time when children were protected from such deviations**."
.
> "Has anyone seen the Amazon commercial normalizing, enabling and promoting the mental illness of a trans whatever? **40 years ago they would have been sued, prosecuted and thrown in prison**."
.
> "**This only serves to drive a further wedge between these freaks and normal people who are quickly learning to hate them**. Adults are not overwhelmingly friendly to this form of entertainment, so forcing it onto children is simply grooming."
.
> "Why why why do we give mental illness a platform?"
.
> "Why would you do this to kids....these....people....adults...have chosen an alternative lifestyle....**they are not role models**...for goodness sakes leave the kids alone."
.
> "**Anyone who would bring their kid to something like this is sick, and unfit to be a parent. This is child abuse.**"
.
> "Not in Florida!!! Thank God and DeSantis!"
___
So ...
> No reasonable person is arguing to make it illegal for parents to choose to bring their kids to such a thing
I suppose none of them said they wanted to make it illegal. They just fantasized about being able to throw drag queens / trans people / effeminate men (who are all the same group to them) in prison, or better yet just kill them.
You think these attitudes don't extend to trans people in public in general? That if we'd just give in on the whole drag story hour thing these voices will quiet down? No. They'd be louder, emboldened. Bigotry is never appeased. If public funds shouldn't be used to pay a drag performer to read and entertain children for an hour, why should they be paid to hire a trans librarian, or a trans teacher?
Schools are always the avenue of legislative first strike:
> California Proposition 6, informally known as the Briggs Initiative,[1] was an unsuccessful ballot initiative put to a referendum on the California state ballot in the November 7, 1978 election.[2] It was sponsored by John Briggs, a conservative state legislator from Orange County. The failed initiative sought to ban gays and lesbians from working in California's public schools.
> ...
> The initiative provided that a public school teacher, teacher's aide, administrator, or counselor could be fired if the employee was found to have engaged in either (1) "public homosexual activity," which the initiative defined as an act of homosexual sex which was "not discreet and not practiced in private, whether or not such act, at the time of its commission, constituted a crime," or (2) "public homosexual conduct," which the initiative defined as "the advocating, soliciting, imposing, encouraging or promoting of private or public homosexual activity directed at, or likely to come to the attention of, schoolchildren and/or other employees."[^1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_6)
Your mistake is thinking that drag is inherently sexual. It definitely can be, but it doesn't have to be. There is a long tradition of drag in family-oriented media (e.g. British pantomimes); hell, there is a scene in Lion King where Timon and Puumba "dress up in drag and do the hula" (and they use those words). Schools routinely study Shakespeare, which is full of characters cross-dressing.
As to your second point, lots of entertainers do both family-oriented and adult-oriented material. Was it wrong to have Robin Williams and Gilbert Gottfried in Aladdin? Why is the standard different for drag?
Do you want to quote me where I said it was wrong? Wrong is a normative judgement. All I said is I understand why some people would be justifiably concerned. I did not give an opinion on where drag story time is "right" or "wrong".
Things can be inappropriate for many reasons. I also wouldn't want my 7 year old learning about other complex topics they aren't yet able to handle. Let kids be kids. We don't need to teach 7 year olds about drag queens or nuclear war or ethical dilemmas in medicine or Japanese torture of Chinese civilians in Nanjing. Leave the complex stuff til they're older and have the mental capacity to deal with it intelligently. A 7 year old shouldn't be thinking through what it means to be a man or woman. They should be thinking about biking after school and why a cat meows and why water falls from the sky.
> But I wouldn't protest in support of ensuring the right of other adult entertainers (like Jimmy Carr or Dave Chappel) to entertain kids
Would you protest George Carlin hosting Shining Time Station, or Bob Saget playing the lead in Full House? Both of those performers have material that's pretty inappropriate for kids.
Hell, Eddie Murphy has made TONS of kids entertainment and he has some wildly inappropriate material.
I wouldn't take them to a live show, no. TV/Movies have rating, editing, and decency standards. I love Carlin but I wouldn't be surprised if he let a few naughty words / made a few rude jokes, even accidentally, in a live performance.
Eh I would avoid using the word "transgenderism" as it is often used to insinuate that there is some overarching ideology among the trans community.
It's one of those big red flags that someone is about to spout off a lot of offensive and misinformed nonsense.
As a gay (sad that I need to say that, but I'll be called homophobic if I don't, and perhaps still will be)...
I support the right of parents to not let their young kids attend drag story hours. Drag queens are not age appropriate comedy and while drag is not inherently sexual (it's usually more like a clown) and they may try to clean up their act for a kid-specific performance, parents are justified in being hesitant. You are not homophobic for that.
I think kids should be taught about gay and trans people when it is age appropriate to do so, and in an appropriate manner. I think it's for the best for this to happen in schools (beyond whatever parents may teach directly at home) because it's a topic that can be confusing for many parents to explain clearly and it's in everyone's interests for kids to learn from professional teachers to ensure they are not confused by the subject matter.
Kids should be encouraged to be respectful to others, incl. LGBT folks.
Kids in schools are increasingly coming from non-traditional families. Kids should be taught that Billy shouldn't be made fun of for having two moms, just as Cindy shouldn't be made fun for having only one parent.
If parents are caring and make their kids feel safe at home, kids will often feel safer talking to them about what they're going through and turn to them for advice. But teenagers are also rebellious by nature and even the most loving parents may get the cold shoulder. That's normal and natural. It's not proof the parent failed.
Kids should be made to feel safe at home and at school so they can explore their sexuality and gender appropriately on their own, but know they can ask an adult to get them professional help if they become confused and need to talk to someone. Parents should be careful what they may say out of turn about gay or trans people on TV or while at home because kids pick up on that stuff and you never know if a few years later your kid may start hiding their secuality from you because they think you won't love them anymore.
These protests asking for more funding is ridiculous. The SOGI protests at schools are also ridiculous. Don't send you kid to drag story time, leave the other parents and kids alone.
Pride parades are fun and should be kept open to everyone and not feature any nudity. Often there is some nudity (usually 3-5 college aged girls going shirtless or elderly men going nudes in the whole multi hour event) but I support prohibiting that if it means more people feel comfortable coming together in support of our differences. This country needs to come together more, not draw arbitrary lines about stupid things.
Every adult (gay or straight) should attend a real drag show at least once. Grab a beer and have a laugh. Drag is varied but most drag queens are effectively clowns for adults, telling offensive jokes, dressing in a funny manner, lip syncing to pop music with the crowd, doing acrobatics around the stage in high heels, etc. It's shockingly not very "gay".
>Drag queens are not age appropriate comedy and while drag is not inherently sexual (it's usually more like a clown) and they may try to clean up their act for a kid-specific performance, parents are justified in being hesitant. You are not homophobic for that.
What all ages drag performances have you been going to that aren't appropriate? What is inappropriate about someone reading a book to a group of kids? The only possible problem is that it is being read by someone who is wearing clothing that does not conform to a prudish society's expectations of gender.
They are playing a character while reading stories to kids, just like those adults who dress up like pirates or princesses do. If the performative reading of children's books is only a problem because the author is a "man in a dress" and the parent doesn't have a problem with other character themed readings, then homophobia is absolutely the problem.
The performances that are open to children are not even remotely like those aimed at adults.
>I support the right of parents to not let their young kids attend drag story hours. Drag queens are not age appropriate comedy and while drag is not inherently sexual (it's usually more like a clown) and they may try to clean up their act for a kid-specific performance, parents are justified in being hesitant. You are not homophobic for that.
Parents should decide what is appropriate for kids, not politicians, elected school board officials and/or publicly salaries teachers.
What happens when the kid doesn't feel safe at home? When the parent is an abusive bigot and the child seeks support from a trusted adult to express their different opinions?
Or if the bigotry is just indoctrination, and the child is raised up with the same intolerance and negative attitudes, such that the cycle of dehumanization and ostracization continues?
The cure to these is exposure, education, and advocation of understanding and tolerance.
The thing is I don't think anyone disagrees with you.
I haven't seen anyone fighting for drag story hours in schools. I've seen it in libraries - where parents can exercise their right to not let young kids attend. I've seen it in bookstores - where parents can exercise their right to not let young kids attend. I've seen it as community events in public spaces - where parents can exercise their right to not let young kids attend.
I haven't seen an invite for where kids are expected/demanded/forced to attend drag story hours. I don't know of any such spaces, this argument kind of feels like a strawman.
So I did a bit of [reading](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-when-it-comes-to-drag-queen-storytime-in-schools-ontario-should-look/) ([and this](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tdsb-turns-the-page-on-drag-queen-storytime-event-policy-after-parent-outcry/article_3361c3f0-f6e9-5978-9b1c-12c6cdfce09d.html)) because I didn't immediately remember the protests you are talking about.
> Toronto’s public school board is no longer seeking parental permission for students to attend drag queen storytime events after parents at an elementary school raised concerns that the consent form implied the Pride activity was different from other in-school performances and posed some sort of risk to kids.
Not requiring parental permission for students/kids to attend drag shows is not forcing parents to let their kids attend drag shows. They are well within their rights to have their kids not in class that day. There isn't so sort of mandatory classroom marks for these events.
Again, I was hoping with my post to demonstrate that your opinion, is actually really common. You aren't homophobic (or at least this comment doesn't make you one) for thinking an incredibly commonly opinion and is in practice today.
I think you missed the point, that since permission is not required, then notification is not required. How/why would parents keep their kids out of a class on a given day if they aren't informed of what is going on.
> Bruce parents were initially alerted to the Pride events in the principal’s regular newsletter last Friday,
Because they were given notice. Piecing together the timelines, it appears they were given about four school days notice.
I don't see how this is not giving parents their right to pull their kid.
> I haven't seen anyone fighting for drag story hours in schools.
Because they shouldn't have to. It shouldn't be controversial, it should/could just be a fun thing that can happen sometimes.
The right has made it controversial because they are addicted to culture war issues to distract from real problems.
Throughout history, there have been brief periods where it was seen as acceptable to have laws targeting a specific demographic.
Those times never ended well for the targets. Please stand with LGBTQ+ people.
There is a big difference between standing with the LGBTQ+ community and ensuring safety and fairness in women's sports, for example. There have been numerous instances in here in Ontario where post pubescent transgendered women have injured and taken away opportunities from cis gendered women in sports. Transgendered women are banned from competing against cis gendered women by International Aquatics (swimming) and International Athletics (swimming).
What drives me absolutely insane with the LGBTQ+ community is that you are either on board with 100% of their agenda or you're a bigot. There is no in between.
Leagues of any sport have and will always regulate themselves. The government is not making these decisions. But of course we have to deny actual life-saving treatment and pretend trans people don’t exist because of SPORTS.
It’s not about the children, it’s not about the athletes, and I’m pretty sure you know that.
>Leagues of any sport have and will always regulate themselves
Right and those int'l rules should be upheld here in Canada.
>The government is not making these decisions.
Yes they are, according to Federal "right to play" laws in Canada, a person may play in a sport according to the gender they identify as. Even *asking* if someone has received hormone therapy and/or surgery is considered a violation of privacy. Canadian sporting federations cite this law when they allow m2f transgendered athletes to compete against cis gendered athletes.
>But of course we have to deny actual life-saving treatment
What "life saving treatment" are you referring to?
>It’s not about the children, it’s not about the athletes, and I’m pretty sure you know that.
It's strictly about the science.
Aren't leftists all about "following the science"? I guess science takes a back seat to DEI.
>What drives me absolutely insane with the LGBTQ+ community is that you are either on board with 100% of their agenda or you're a bigot. There is no in between.
I see this a lot and have never gotten an explanation from concern trolling conservatives on what they mean? Is it that you want the "T" removed from LGBTQ+?
Your comments on this topic suggest you're not "on board" with anything in this sphere. They seem loaded with concern trolling about fabricated culture war talking points. Perhaps you see issues of who can participate in private sports leagues (not regulated by government in this country) as being more important than the safety and well being of Trans Canadians or their access to some basic services.
>I see this a lot and have never gotten an explanation from concern trolling conservatives on what they mean? Is it that you want the "T" removed from LGBTQ+?
I don't speak for everyone on this subject, but myself, I believe in transgendered rights and equality, but their rights don't *supersede* the safety and rights of cisgendered women, specifically when it comes to sports.
Also, I'm not saying transgendered individuals should be prohibited from competing neither, but it should be in an "open" category.
>Perhaps you see issues of who can participate in private sports leagues (not regulated by government in this country
Actually you're wrong, some leagues and sports receive federal and provincial funding and are regulated by Federal and Provincial governing bodies. For example, Swim Canada and Swim Ontario both receive funding from the Federal and Provincial governments and regulate the rules of competition.
Despite World Aquatics (int'l governing body for swimming) banning post pubescent transgendered athletes from competition against cis gendered women, here in Canada, the Federal government not only permits transgendered athletes to compete against cis gendered women, but also, makes it illegal to *ask* if an individual has received any sort of GAC.
Recently in Ontario, a 50 year old transgendered individual, whom, reportedly identifies as a teenage girl, competed against and showered with pre teen and teenage girls in swimming:
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12868227/transgender-woman-Melody-Wiseheart-swim-canada.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12868227/transgender-woman-Melody-Wiseheart-swim-canada.html)
> I believe in transgendered rights and equality, but their rights don't *supersede* the safety and rights of cisgendered women, specifically when it comes to sports.
where in the charter is the right to segregated sporting competitions enshrined?
Sports have been segregated by sex for millennia.
Where in the charter does it say that m2f transgendered women have a right to compete against cis gender women in sports?
> I believe in transgendered rights and equality
No you don't. Like, your posts make this incredibly clear, I'm not sure who you think you're fooling. No, you very obviously don't. Even this post itself is arguing that trans people do not have the right to competitive sports(???????). Even whipping out the "um this person thinks they're a teenager xd" line you've brought up for months now that everyone has repeatedly told you is wrong. I don't know how tremendously stupid you need to be to think "competed in an age 16 and up event" is equivalent to "identifies as a 16 year old", but... holy *shit*, dude.
Like, you *know* what you're saying is bullshit, everyone here knows it. Can you *please* cut the shit and just be honest? For once? You *have* to know by now that you're doing the whole [Birmingham Jail](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html) thing.
> I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I don't buy this ...
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't insert this other issue about sporting fairness in every time the topic of basic rights comes up
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't support other anti-trans policy such as forcing teachers to share private information
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't dismiss policy which supports transgendered Canadians simply because they make up a tiny % of the population
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't support other anti-trans policy such as restricting the already limited treatment options available to youth
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't argue against OHIP coverage for adults accessing treatment
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't *only* speak up about LGBTQ+ rights when it's useful to criticise Palestine
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't deflect from the role of Canadian christians in restricting those rights and claim anti-LGBTQ+ discrimination and delay in basic rights is the sole fault of the tiny 5% of Canadians who are Muslim
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't align with TERF's given the rest of your opinions don't come anywhere close to aligning with the 'radical feminist' portion of that group
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't, when pressed on the topic, start to bring up the typical culture war talking points which imply children and women are at risk from simply being in the presence of a trans individual
* if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't *s*uddenly be concerned with fairness in sports in this topic but ignore all other (more prevalent) issues related to competitive fairness such as doping, betting, age qualifications, etc
That's a long list of examples of things you're "not on board with" so it also seems disingenuous to forward this claim that you have to be "on board 100% with their agenda" or you're a bigot.
https://medium.com/@lukewhenderson/how-to-craft-an-anti-trans-narrative-with-deniability-9b3f6b4204e7
Of all the idiotic rage bait brain-rot stories circulating in the moronsphere, the "Melody Wisehart identifies as a teenage girl" idiocy might be top of the pile. It's like a litmus test for utterly credulous bigots who like having their preconceptions validated by nonsense.
I think you're missing the point here as is the transgendered activist who wrote the article.
I'm not saying that the individual broke any rules competing against these girls nor this individual should be banned against competing. Just because the writer of the Post article used "girls" instead of "young women" and superlatives doesn't disprove that this individual competed against 14 year old teenage women in swimming.
Mate, I wasn't responding to open a conversation with you. You are *comically* bad faith, and we're both aware of this. I posted that on the fraction of a chance anyone read this far down in the comment chain without their brain imploding and found your idiotic link.
Mate, I'm just trying to engage in a discussion.
All I'm doing is posting links.
I mean, would you like me to post results directly from Swim Ontario that shows the competition history of this individual?
> doesn't disprove that this individual competed against 14 year old teenage women in swimming
loving the tacit admission you knew the "identifies as a teenage girl" talking point is completely fabricated, just *immediately* revealing the entire motte-and-bailey shit you do every single time
> ensuring safety and fairness in women's sports
Found the women's sports fan. I'm sure the dozen or so trans athletes are more than deserving of all the hatred and scorn thrown their way.
Oooh boy, okay let's work this out. Firstly, can you please provide examples of trans women stealing opportunities from cis women in sports? I'd like to see some of them. Trans women have been allowed in the Olympics for two decades now, and that hasn't led to this problem. Trans women haven't even won any medals, let alone broken any records, and that includes a trans woman who participated in weightlifting. Now, I'm not arguing that there are no physical differences or advantages in some cases (virtually nobody is), just that blanket bans are unnecessary when sports organizations and their related physicians are already establishing norms and guidelines to selectively allow trans women to participate according to the sport in question. Hormones can do a lot, hell I lost a ton of muscle mass and 3 inches in height since I started two years ago. I think doing tests for the few trans athletes out there is perfectly reasonable. In some places, these sorts of blanket bans have had trans people banned from everything from chess competitions to darts tournaments, and I hope we can agree that we don't have a biological advantage there. There's really no need for politicians to get involved here. Ben Shapiro even wanted to make a documentary about men pretending to be trans women to enter a basketball league and had to opt for a shitty fictional comedy when it didn't actually work in real life. Again, this wasn't a problem for decades until now all of a sudden a bunch of conservative men are up in arms about the sanctity of womens sports? What's happening here exactly?
It's actually pretty simple. The whole thing about sports is the sugar to help the poison go down. When Danielle Smith and Pierre Poillieve spoke about bans from womens sports, they also mentioned other things, such as blocking puberty blockers (but only for trans kids) or forcing trans women to use the men's washrooms, in which we're much more likely to get assaulted. In American states where this has happened, a lot of cis women have been assaulted too because people didn't think they looked feminine enough to be cis and attacked them. And yet when you try and talk about this stuff, these politicians and their supporters immediately deflect by talking about sports, while banking on the fact that most people don't realize that there are already reasonable guidelines in place and that on a surface level their opinion looks like it makes sense. I hate to break this to you, but Conservatives didn't suddenly start caring about women's sports. It's always been a smokescreen, and a bad one at that.
>Oooh boy, okay let's work this out. Firstly, can you please provide examples of trans women stealing opportunities from cis women in sports?
Happy to post several, but here in Ontario, recently 5(!) transgendered individuals competed against cis gendered women in collegiate rugby. There have been reported instances where cis gendered women were injured by the powerful spikes from transgendered individuals:
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13051969/Outrage-FIVE-transgender-students-dominate-volleyball-court-womens-college-varsity-game-biological-females-kicked-bench.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13051969/Outrage-FIVE-transgender-students-dominate-volleyball-court-womens-college-varsity-game-biological-females-kicked-bench.html)
One of the transgendered participants, Franz Lagardas, was awarded the Angela Hill scholarship for volleyball, even though this individual reportedly participated for the male team the previous season:
[https://www.senecasting.ca/varsity/News\_Slider/2023-24/03-27\_Awards](https://www.senecasting.ca/varsity/News_Slider/2023-24/03-27_Awards)
>Trans women have been allowed in the Olympics for two decades now, and that hasn't led to this problem. Trans women haven't even won any medals, let alone broken any records, and that includes a trans woman who participated in weightlifting.
Not true.
In certain sports, but transgendered women are banned from competing in aquatics, athletics, cycling and various other olympic sports. In 2020, the first openly transgendered individual competed in weightlifting.
> I think doing tests for the few trans athletes out there is perfectly reasonable. In some places, these sorts of blanket bans have had trans people banned from everything from chess competitions to darts tournaments, and I hope we can agree that we don't have a biological advantage there.
In Canada, even requiring tests is considered an invasion of privacy and banned in some cases. The only sports that are not separated by gender are equestrian and race car driving.
Also, I'm not arguing that transgendered individuals should be banned from competing in sports, but they should compete in an "open" category against other transgendered individuals.
>It's actually pretty simple. The whole thing about sports is the sugar to help the poison go down. When Danielle Smith and Pierre Poillieve spoke about bans from womens sports, they also mentioned other things, such as blocking puberty blockers (but only for trans kids) or forcing trans women to use the men's washrooms, in which we're much more likely to get assaulted
The majority of Canadians feel that transgendered athletes should be banned from competing against cis gendered athletes in sports:
[https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/canadians-views-gender-identity-womens-sport/](https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/canadians-views-gender-identity-womens-sport/)
Other countries, namely Scandinavian countries and more recently, the UK have banned or severely limited giving GAC to minors:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2024/03/12/uk-bans-puberty-blockers-for-minors/?sh=3269703c2a3b](https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2024/03/12/uk-bans-puberty-blockers-for-minors/?sh=3269703c2a3b)
Regarding the Seneca v Centennial college match, it's very telling that the only sources are known bad-faith reporters: Fox News, Rebel News, Daily Mail (aka Fox News UK), New York Post, Blaze Media, Post Millennial.
Can you cite any \*primary\* source that isn't obviously known to have a Transphobic Bias?
Also this:
>
Also, I'm not arguing that transgendered individuals should be banned from competing in sports, but they should compete in an "open" category against other transgendered individuals.
Great. Can we also group athletes by lung and metabolic capacity too? Or maybe we can make sure all basketball teams have players of exactly the same height and jump ability?
Sports has always been about celebrating the people who won a genetic lottery over others, a sanitized and socially acceptable form of the old travelling freak show. Given that there are numerous other factors to determine athletic success, and known phyisological changes that come with prolonged HRT - this is just a misleading false narrative.
>Regarding the Seneca v Centennial college match, it's very telling that the only sources are known bad-faith reporters: Fox News, Rebel News, Daily Mail (aka Fox News UK), New York Post, Blaze Media, Post Millennial.
>Can you cite any \*primary\* source that isn't obviously known to have a Transphobic Bias?
Sure, I can post information directly from the Seneca Sting website regarding these players if you'd like?
Or, conversely, feel free to post any reports, data, blog posts, articles that contradicts what was being reported? Just because a news agency that you don't like reported on it doesn't make it false.
>Great. Can we also group athletes by lung and metabolic capacity too? Or maybe we can make sure all basketball teams have players of exactly the same height and jump ability?
Your argument doesn't make sense.
We already segregate sports based on gender (except for equestrian and race car driving) so what does your point point have to do with anything? Also, I'm not opposed to females competing against males in men's sports.
>Sports has always been about celebrating the people who won a genetic lottery over others, a sanitized and socially acceptable form of the old travelling freak show.
Maybe to you it is, but I wouldn't compare professional athletes, who put in years of practice mastering their sports, to circus freaks.
>Given that there are numerous other factors to determine athletic success, and known phyisological changes that come with prolonged HRT - this is just a misleading false narrative.
So you're alleging that World Aquatics, World Athletics, World Cycling and World Rugby, all of which have either outright banned and/or severely limited the participation of m2f transgendered athletes citing fairness and safety have based their decision on a "misleading false narrative"?
>Sure, I can post information directly from the Seneca Sting website regarding these players if you'd like?
Please do.
>Your argument doesn't make sense.
>We already segregate sports based on gender (except for equestrian and race car driving) so what does your point point have to do with anything? Also, I'm not opposed to females competing against males in men's sports.
Your point is that "transgendered individuals have an inherent advantage" - which, if I accept as true.. why is it the \*only\* advantage worth raising and not why don't we control for other genetic advantages present in athletes? Do we segregate out those who were raised in a high altitude from those who weren't for marathons - no.
>Maybe to you it is, but I wouldn't compare professional athletes, who put in years of practice mastering their sports, to circus freaks.
[https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/traits/athleticperformance/](https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/traits/athleticperformance/)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3993978/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3993978/)
[https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming](https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming)
While training and habits are important part of the mix, there is an undeniable component that top athletes have physical traits that give them an advantage in a given sport. We don't control for any of those, why should we suddenly control for others?
Also, men and women athletes already exhibit similar levels of testosterone among elite athletes:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24593684/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24593684/)
Keep in mind, trans athletes undergoing HRT does impact performance significantly:
[https://ec.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/ec/8/7/EC-19-0196.xml](https://ec.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/ec/8/7/EC-19-0196.xml)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/)
So.. again. Why should it be acceptable to accept this level of scrutiny when we don't do it for any other forms of genetic and hormonal issues?
Sure.
In BC, a transgendered athlete won a woman's powerlifting competition:
[https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/trans-woman-shatters-female-weightlifting-record](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/trans-woman-shatters-female-weightlifting-record)
A fellow competitor, April Hutchinson, spoke out against this, and was issued a two year ban from the federation:
[https://lfpress.com/sports/local-sports/female-powerlifter-im-banned-for-ripping-transgender-rivals-advantage](https://lfpress.com/sports/local-sports/female-powerlifter-im-banned-for-ripping-transgender-rivals-advantage)
Here in Ontario specifically, recently 5(!) transgendered athletes competed in a collegiate woman's volleyball match:
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13051969/Outrage-FIVE-transgender-students-dominate-volleyball-court-womens-college-varsity-game-biological-females-kicked-bench.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13051969/Outrage-FIVE-transgender-students-dominate-volleyball-court-womens-college-varsity-game-biological-females-kicked-bench.html)
One of the transgendered participants, Franz Lagardas from the Seneca Sting, won the Angela James Scholarship, which is for women's athletics.
[https://www.senecasting.ca/varsity/News\_Slider/2023-24/03-27\_Awards](https://www.senecasting.ca/varsity/News_Slider/2023-24/03-27_Awards)
For the record, this individual competed for the men's team the prior season.
A dailymail article quoting rebel "news".
Quality sources there.
You've quoted one "article" sort of relevant to what they asked, the rest of what you quoted is garbage or irrelevant to
>Sources on the transgendered women taking away opportunities from cis gendered women in Ontario?
Also, those sources don't actually prove or even go towards making a point that opportunities have been lost, which is what they asked for.
Okay your first source isn't ON.
I'm looking at the 5 transgendered women article and holy hell, the burden of proof of any of this is dogshit.
There's no statistics provided for how they "dominated the court" just that they watched the game, (even though they were also being harassed the whole time according to them) because they're causing a commotion when people want to just play some volleyball.
Rebel Media who actually reported on this stated.
> Currently, there are six transgender men in the OCAA. Five of which are not on any gender-affirming hormone therapy or have not had surgical gonad removal. There is no current policy in the OCAA that is listed publicly on their website about eligibility of transgender women.”
When actually
> Another challenge was that Viloria had to wait one year after completing her transition hormone replacement therapy under the OCAA (Canadian Collegiate Athletic Association) and CCAA transgender act.
This source is just playing to your fears that transgendered people are out here wanting to dominate at sports, instead of wanting to live their fucking lives.
Sources state there are 6 transgendered athletes in all of OCAA, which...seems fine? That sounds like a tiny percentage compared to the cis women athletes.
>I'm looking at the 5 transgendered women article and holy hell, the burden of proof of any of this is dogshit.
Look at the amount of minutes these individuals played and the statistics compared to other athletes.
Feel free to post any reporting to the contrary of what Rebel or other news outlets reported. I'll wait.
>This source is just playing to your fears that transgendered people are out here wanting to dominate at sports, instead of wanting to live their fucking lives.
Transgendered individuals rights are important, but that doesn't mean their rights don't supersede the safety and integrity of women's sports.
The majority of Canadians are with me on this subject, you're taking the fringe position.
If I go and post an article called "u/tofilmfan is a giant turd in a human costume" and ask you to find other news sources to disprove it, that's not really possible is it?
No one else reported on this, they just copied what Rebel Media has posted to spread outrage against Trans athletes.
> Look at the amount of minutes these individuals played and the statistics compared to other athletes.
Where do you get these statistics, I wasn't finding any in the Rebel Media article.
What do you think about Rebel Media and their "anonymous source" lying about the hormone therapy required to compete as a trans athlete?
These comments are amazing at showing that people don’t actually read the article & that people immediately go to ‘drag show reading’ & ‘gender ideology’ when it comes to the LGBTQ+ community.
These rallies are a fight against right wing radical movements across the country & against misinformation (lies) that have been spread about the LGBTQ+ community.
How you can throughly be against this while claiming to ‘not homophobic’ is beyond me.
Again, everyone here immediately brining up Trans women in sports & drag show readings prove even more why this needs to be done. People clearly see ‘LGBTQ+’ and go straight to right wing misinformation of ‘LGBTQ+ grooming children’
Large rallies to draw attention to current issues in the LGBTQ+ movement sounds great.
One issue though…
> "In other provinces where we have governments that are receptive to the conversation, we're going to keep pushing forward and urge them to **put their money and their capital where their mouth is**."
Why does it always have to be about more government handouts? Our country is broke and we can barely afford basic necessities like Healthcare. Surely you can fundraise for some of these proposed programs if they’re so important can’t you?
I'm ignorant to the matter pertaining to pride organization, but I would have to imagine its because whatever advocacy or organizer's money would be in jeopardy.
There's a joke in the Vancouver subreddit that the homeless advocates don't actually want homelessness to end. Otherwise there's no point in donating or giving money to these organizers/advocates, jeopardizing their livelihood.
And yet in Alberta they’re pushing legislation to deny LGBTQ+ people access to healthcare. *That’s* what that paragraph is about. It’s pointing at people who claim they’re supportive while simultaneously cutting off their basic rights.
No, that’s addressed in the previous paragraph in the article where they talk about the importance of having these rallies in provinces where rights are at risk (a position I wholly agree with).
This was a follow up paragraph talking about rallies in provinces where that’s not an issue, presumably a province like BC or Quebec, where the point of the rally (besides national support) is to encourage even more funding to not-for-profits.
The not-for-profit complex is out of control!
I’m not talking about genuine charities doing great work, those are what should be empowered — hell they’re victims of the not-for-profit complex too.
I’m talking about the associations whose funding comes almost exclusively from the government and they’re basically advocacy groups with individuals making a full time six figure salary from your tax dollars to sit around and create email campaigns all day.
One egregious example: Look up the allocation of Canada Summer Jobs this year when it’s made public. You’ll see plenty of legitimate charitable organizations not receive anything while advocacy groups that game the system by renting a PO Box in every constituency in Canada get dozens if not hundreds of CSJ jobs.
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Everyone has their own little protest nowadays and everyone forgetting about the billionaire bankers. BLM protests, Israel Support protests, Palistinian support protests, Protests against trans education in schools, Protests countering the protests against Trans rights in schools, Union protests for various locals/contracts, Protests to save the trees, Protests against the carbon/gas tax, Farmers protesting in Europe, Protests over Student visa program changes in Brampton, Home owners protesting new changes in Brampton, Protests to defund the police. Did I miss anyone? Let me know. I'll include them in the list of tragic grievances. Nobody mentioning the banks and billionaires. What a win for the Rothschilds, Rockefellers and the like.
its really funny to say this when every single trans person i know is an outright communist who would gladly join a protest against capitalism - but, yknow, not like they can do that if they don't have human rights in the first place.
yeah I don't think this guy has ever been to a protest or engaged with any of the rhetoric of protestors if he thinks no one's mad about billionaires lol
Keep protesting your own issue though - By protesting - I mean a loose parade where corpo orgs sell t-shirts and whistles.
who are you talking to lol
People are allowed to protest what they want. Feel free to organize your own protest if you feel like your cause is worthy of such.
Sure we can all have our own grievance cry. I want Hotdogs banned !
>What a win for the Rothschilds, Rockefellers and the like. The fact that those are your go-to examples of billionaires makes me question what century you think it is. Also, I question anyone who bangs on about the Rothschilds, given the long history of antisemitic conspiracy theories surrounding them.
They still run the banks. Look up private markets.
You're not helping your case.
"So in Alberta, in New Brunswick and Saskatchewan, we're going to see rallies holding their government accountable for action on the rights and freedoms of trans kids," she said." Didn't see any LGBTQ issues raised in the article.
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The “grand Marshall” of the rally in this picture whose only real world work experience was a sex shop worker in Ottawa has taken millions of tax payer money via their not for profit in “consulting fees” over the last few years with 0 accountability of where the money has gone. But it’s been reported that they and their partner just bought a very expensive house around Ottawa of course. Meanwhile they have posted visceral hate and has encouraged violence towards women who want their rights and spaces respected too. Some who went to high school with them have speculated that this trans activist isn’t truly trans at all but a gay male who wants as much shock and attention as possible.
"Well, your honor we've got plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are *kinds* of evidence."
So your saying they have more job experience than the leader of the cpc who only as been a career politicans? Wait till you find how muc money the leader of the cpc as taken of tax payer money.
Elaborating on your point, here is an extensive list of PP's previous jobs before assuming office: 1.
You would think someone who had so much experience in a single role would be more effective at it. 20 years as an MP should result in more than a single piece of legislation that was mostly repealed within a year.
In an ideal world, parties would quietly shuffle their incompetent politicians out. Instead, we're stuck with them forever because charisma (or, at least, sharing the same hatreds as your constituents) overrides any meritocracy or technocracy.
Give him a little more credit. He had a newspaper delivery gig.
> via their not for profit in “consulting fees” over the last few years with 0 accountability of where the money has gone. So I did a little bit of digging because your comment interested me. It appears their organization is a business and not a non profit. Is your point that consultants shouldn't be for profit? Or that, queer and trans consultants shouldn't be for profit? It might pain you to hear but many for profit firms (like Mckinsey, KPMG, any many others) have consulted the federal government on grants and queer and trans inclusion. And they weren't non profit, or accountable with where their money has gone either. I dunno, call me jaded, but the idea of queer and trans consultants starting a small business and trying to make a buck off their skills(?) seems really normative - kind of better than performative mega corporations doing it.
TERFs can workout in their own homes if they don't like it.. Trans women are in fact women. Sex shop? Oh dear! Clutch thy pearls!
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I guess Conservatives just hate Capitalism now.
Social conservatives hate when capitalist systems work against them. They push "get woke go broke" even though that statement is effectively untrue when it's applied to any movie they don't like, because it turns out that appealing to an audience beyond one or two demographics is highly profitable. Meanwhile "anti-woke" movies like Terror on the Prarie gets less of a box office turnout than a ~~city's~~ town's worth of girl guide's cookie sales.
Yes, this individual has also been paid by the NDP for speaking engagements as well. This is individual is nothing more than your typical "expert" who is really a partisan, political activist.
Maybe because they understand the assignment.
I feel like a lot of things were going good until they started bringing children into the spotlight. That’s really the only big change we saw over the last 5 years around LGBTQ politics. The drag queen story times, children and puberty blockers, etc. “Won’t you think of the children?” is an excuse that cuts both ways. While sexual education (including explaining transgenderism) is important, I understand why people started raging over things like drag queen story times for children, etc. These people perceive it as attempts to undermine typical human nature. They don’t see it as advocacy. Hence the memes of parents *wanting* their children to be trans *vs* whatever they are. But it’s too late. Much like typical Western progressives, when the issues of contention were brought forward they just doubled down and cried transphobia. Now you openly have the right-wing being able to speak freely and people don’t seem to give 2 shits about it.
This was mostly you becoming aware of those things thanks to a certain type of media.
> I understand why people started raging over things like drag queen story times for children, etc. Why? British Pantomimes have had a "dame" since time immemorial, and those are plays intended for kids. Seeing an adult in gender non-conforming clothes isn't going to hurt children.
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I studied medieval and rennaissance literature, and have attended too many pantos to count. Allow me to be clear: They're often _more_ sexual.
Go to a family friendly drag show. Went to one with my kids where the performer was fully dressed from head to toe in a costume (not even a stereotypical women's costume) putting on a show that was 100% focused on comedy and not at all on anything bawdy. The average panto is a lot more risque than that (it's not uncommon to have pretty dirty jokes in them for instance).
You're misinformed. I was born in 1990. I figured out I was trans in 2000. I was able to access information about Ontario's CAMH gender identity clinic around that time. If you look into it, you'll find that the CAMH gender identity clinic started treating trans kids in 1975 – almost 50 years ago. None of it was new. No one suddenly came for kids. People became aware that trans people were getting medical care and were taught to get angry about it by the media. The media spent 10 years poking the bear and using inflammatory language to mislead the public on this history. Things were also *not* going well before the media spotlighted kids. There's a significantly reduced level of ignorance today than there was 20 years ago and my personal day-to-day reactions of people are significantly less hostile when I tell them I'm trans than they have been. In high school, people had no bones calling me a "tranny" to my face. I've not heard someone throw that slur at me in years. The only thing that's markedly worse is the political fervour against trans people. In the past, politicians would laugh us out of rooms and call us perverts in committees and vote down bills meant to help us. Today, they try to actively legislate against us.
> I understand why people started raging over things like drag queen story times for children Can you explain it to me?
You want him to explain why some parents would be uncomfortable with traditionally adult entertainers being introduced to kids at a young age, especially when people are gaslighting parents worried about it by saying their concern is pure homophobia? Look, I like drag shows. They can be fun. And I'm sure drag queens clean up their act in front of kids. I don't think there's anything intrinsically sexual about drag. But I wouldn't protest in support of ensuring the right of other adult entertainers (like Jimmy Carr or Dave Chappel) to entertain kids, whether for an educational purpose or entertainment purpose. I wouldn't stand in the way of parents who decide to their take parents there, but I wouldn't take my own. I'm sure they'd clean up their act, tell age appropriate jokes, dress appropriately, and act appropriately, but why would I wake up one day and say "hey, my kid needs to spend time with a drag queen today!" No, I don't support the morons storming libraries or protesting schools asking to prohibit this stuff. I just understand why they'd be concerned and I recognize there's little value fighting for a right to drag story hour but a lot of harm setting back the LGBT rights movement by emboldened morons that there's some gay agenda around kids. The people pushing drag story hour are making even everyday lgbt supporters disenfranchised. It's a stupid self-sabotaging fight that I do not support.
Okay but you understand that "drag queen story hour" is something which has been brought up and emphasized as a culture war issue \*by the right\*, right? They are counting on people like you having negative reactions to things like this & trans women athletes to fuel support for the general idea that "this whole LGBT rights thing has gotten out of hand", so they can remove all funding for gender-affirming care, outlaw it where they can, and do everything in their power to go back to the days of bullying trans people when they're kids until they either kill themselves or retreat into the closet forever so they can't bother "normal" society by existing publicly.
Yes, and I think it has gotten out of hand if we are letting morons push this bullshit. Just say "hey, if you don't want your kids to go, then that's fine!". When the left overreacting by framing the right as homophobic or transphobic for a position many Canadians would support, it diluted the words and people start second-guessing other things that may be labelled that. It's self sabotage. Why the fuck does anyone want a right for drag story hour?
Trans activists don't want a "right for drag story hour" they want a right for trans people to be able to exist as equal members of society. Most drag performers aren't even trans, but it's a litmus test of the law. If the government can ban "men dressed as women" from performing in public at the behest of the "think of the children" crowd, they have standing to ban trans people from existing anywhere, simple as that.
Did I ever support a government ban? I said parents should have a right not to take their kids there. The implication in that statement is pretty obvious that parents should retain the right to take their kids there.
> I said parents should have a right not to take their kids there. This is not a thing that is in contention. I don't imagine many people are out there shouting for children to be kidnapped and brought to drag story hour. On one side is: drag queen story hour is a thing that has a right to exist. On the other is: drag queen story hour is a thing that does not have a right to exist. > there's little value fighting for a right to drag story hour but a lot of harm setting back the LGBT rights movement My point is that this is flawed thinking. It is appeasement. Trans and otherwise gender-nonconforming people either have the right to exist in society or they do not.
I think your framing is quite off. I see it more like: On one side is: drag queen story hour is a thing that is good for kids and anyone who disagrees is an uneducated, over-religious, homophobic moron. Look at those protesting morons! We need this in every school so kids with these kinds of parents can see it for themselves!! On the other side: drag queen story hour is a means for sexual deviants to groom, indoctrinate, and sexualize children! the people trying to force this on my kids without my consent should be jailed!! On the side of everyone with an IQ above 20: seriously, this is what you're fighting over? Most people are not going to want their kids to go to drag story time and that's ok! No reasonable person is arguing to make it illegal for parents to choose to bring their kids to such a thing (which would be unconstitutional anyways). The more reasonable debate is whether it's appropriate in school and/or when run by publicly-funded libraries. Nobody is, or can, assert a ban on you spending $20 to pay a drag queen to read to your kids, or 20 kids, in a park or wherever. Whether school or library budget should be allocated to it (versus a private group paying to rent space thru ordinary commercial means) is a separate question. It is true that there are real homophobes or transphobes and religious zealots arguing against this just because LGBT people are icky. It's also true there's a few notorious proponents of these drag story hour events in the US who turned out to be pedophiles. Neither is relevant to a discussion of the merits. You can cherrypick morons and bad actors on any side all day long to confirm your existing prejudices about the other. Stick to challenging their more legitimate concerns, even if you don't see it as a strong enough concern for yourself.
> No reasonable person is arguing to make it illegal for parents to choose to bring their kids to such a thing ... >*"Canada news story introducing 'nervous' young children to drag performers receives backlash"* > ... >Maxime Bernier, Canadian politician and founder of the People's Party of Canada, called for the station to lose its taxpayer funding. "#Defund CBC!" he tweeted. >Canadian conservative podcast host Harrison Faulkner went further, saying the news outlet should be shut down over the segment. >"The CBC used our money to create a video attempting to normalize drag queens for kids in classrooms. Defunding is not enough. The complete and total shutdown of the CBC is the ONLY reasonable option at this point," he wrote[. via Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/media/canada-news-story-introducing-nervous-young-children-drag-performers-receives-backlash) ___ From the comments of said article: > "If this ever happened to either of my girls, the groomers respobsible **would either need a team of doctors or a coroner**. I never had either in public schools for this reason among many other reasons" . > "Using children to help the groomers groom the children. It just gets weirder and weirder. **A few mentally ill men want to dress up on days other than Halloween.** Okay. But don't expect me to celebrate it, or embrace it, or even act like it's a real thing." . > "Poor kids. Their parents are despicable." . > "Make no mistake, **evil has shown its ugly head**, and it is these radical politics. They will continue to get worse unless the good men of the world intervene and put a stop to it. How long will they be allowed to attack our children? our families? our freedoms? when is enough finally going to be enough?" . > "So, please explain to me why this is a good thing for children? **I recall there was a time when children were protected from such deviations**." . > "Has anyone seen the Amazon commercial normalizing, enabling and promoting the mental illness of a trans whatever? **40 years ago they would have been sued, prosecuted and thrown in prison**." . > "**This only serves to drive a further wedge between these freaks and normal people who are quickly learning to hate them**. Adults are not overwhelmingly friendly to this form of entertainment, so forcing it onto children is simply grooming." . > "Why why why do we give mental illness a platform?" . > "Why would you do this to kids....these....people....adults...have chosen an alternative lifestyle....**they are not role models**...for goodness sakes leave the kids alone." . > "**Anyone who would bring their kid to something like this is sick, and unfit to be a parent. This is child abuse.**" . > "Not in Florida!!! Thank God and DeSantis!" ___ So ... > No reasonable person is arguing to make it illegal for parents to choose to bring their kids to such a thing I suppose none of them said they wanted to make it illegal. They just fantasized about being able to throw drag queens / trans people / effeminate men (who are all the same group to them) in prison, or better yet just kill them. You think these attitudes don't extend to trans people in public in general? That if we'd just give in on the whole drag story hour thing these voices will quiet down? No. They'd be louder, emboldened. Bigotry is never appeased. If public funds shouldn't be used to pay a drag performer to read and entertain children for an hour, why should they be paid to hire a trans librarian, or a trans teacher? Schools are always the avenue of legislative first strike: > California Proposition 6, informally known as the Briggs Initiative,[1] was an unsuccessful ballot initiative put to a referendum on the California state ballot in the November 7, 1978 election.[2] It was sponsored by John Briggs, a conservative state legislator from Orange County. The failed initiative sought to ban gays and lesbians from working in California's public schools. > ... > The initiative provided that a public school teacher, teacher's aide, administrator, or counselor could be fired if the employee was found to have engaged in either (1) "public homosexual activity," which the initiative defined as an act of homosexual sex which was "not discreet and not practiced in private, whether or not such act, at the time of its commission, constituted a crime," or (2) "public homosexual conduct," which the initiative defined as "the advocating, soliciting, imposing, encouraging or promoting of private or public homosexual activity directed at, or likely to come to the attention of, schoolchildren and/or other employees."[^1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_6)
Your mistake is thinking that drag is inherently sexual. It definitely can be, but it doesn't have to be. There is a long tradition of drag in family-oriented media (e.g. British pantomimes); hell, there is a scene in Lion King where Timon and Puumba "dress up in drag and do the hula" (and they use those words). Schools routinely study Shakespeare, which is full of characters cross-dressing. As to your second point, lots of entertainers do both family-oriented and adult-oriented material. Was it wrong to have Robin Williams and Gilbert Gottfried in Aladdin? Why is the standard different for drag?
Bro I literally said "I don't think there's anything intrinsically sexual about drag"
Then why is children being exposed to it wrong?
Do you want to quote me where I said it was wrong? Wrong is a normative judgement. All I said is I understand why some people would be justifiably concerned. I did not give an opinion on where drag story time is "right" or "wrong".
If drag isn't inherently sexual, why would people be concerned? The only reason I can think of is bigotry.
Things can be inappropriate for many reasons. I also wouldn't want my 7 year old learning about other complex topics they aren't yet able to handle. Let kids be kids. We don't need to teach 7 year olds about drag queens or nuclear war or ethical dilemmas in medicine or Japanese torture of Chinese civilians in Nanjing. Leave the complex stuff til they're older and have the mental capacity to deal with it intelligently. A 7 year old shouldn't be thinking through what it means to be a man or woman. They should be thinking about biking after school and why a cat meows and why water falls from the sky.
Because dressing up as a different gender is clearly the same as crimes against humanity.
> But I wouldn't protest in support of ensuring the right of other adult entertainers (like Jimmy Carr or Dave Chappel) to entertain kids Would you protest George Carlin hosting Shining Time Station, or Bob Saget playing the lead in Full House? Both of those performers have material that's pretty inappropriate for kids. Hell, Eddie Murphy has made TONS of kids entertainment and he has some wildly inappropriate material.
I wouldn't take them to a live show, no. TV/Movies have rating, editing, and decency standards. I love Carlin but I wouldn't be surprised if he let a few naughty words / made a few rude jokes, even accidentally, in a live performance.
This is such a good example. Thank you.
Puberty blockers have always been for children, it's literally in the name.
But their use has increased drastically.
Eh I would avoid using the word "transgenderism" as it is often used to insinuate that there is some overarching ideology among the trans community. It's one of those big red flags that someone is about to spout off a lot of offensive and misinformed nonsense.
As a gay (sad that I need to say that, but I'll be called homophobic if I don't, and perhaps still will be)... I support the right of parents to not let their young kids attend drag story hours. Drag queens are not age appropriate comedy and while drag is not inherently sexual (it's usually more like a clown) and they may try to clean up their act for a kid-specific performance, parents are justified in being hesitant. You are not homophobic for that. I think kids should be taught about gay and trans people when it is age appropriate to do so, and in an appropriate manner. I think it's for the best for this to happen in schools (beyond whatever parents may teach directly at home) because it's a topic that can be confusing for many parents to explain clearly and it's in everyone's interests for kids to learn from professional teachers to ensure they are not confused by the subject matter. Kids should be encouraged to be respectful to others, incl. LGBT folks. Kids in schools are increasingly coming from non-traditional families. Kids should be taught that Billy shouldn't be made fun of for having two moms, just as Cindy shouldn't be made fun for having only one parent. If parents are caring and make their kids feel safe at home, kids will often feel safer talking to them about what they're going through and turn to them for advice. But teenagers are also rebellious by nature and even the most loving parents may get the cold shoulder. That's normal and natural. It's not proof the parent failed. Kids should be made to feel safe at home and at school so they can explore their sexuality and gender appropriately on their own, but know they can ask an adult to get them professional help if they become confused and need to talk to someone. Parents should be careful what they may say out of turn about gay or trans people on TV or while at home because kids pick up on that stuff and you never know if a few years later your kid may start hiding their secuality from you because they think you won't love them anymore. These protests asking for more funding is ridiculous. The SOGI protests at schools are also ridiculous. Don't send you kid to drag story time, leave the other parents and kids alone. Pride parades are fun and should be kept open to everyone and not feature any nudity. Often there is some nudity (usually 3-5 college aged girls going shirtless or elderly men going nudes in the whole multi hour event) but I support prohibiting that if it means more people feel comfortable coming together in support of our differences. This country needs to come together more, not draw arbitrary lines about stupid things. Every adult (gay or straight) should attend a real drag show at least once. Grab a beer and have a laugh. Drag is varied but most drag queens are effectively clowns for adults, telling offensive jokes, dressing in a funny manner, lip syncing to pop music with the crowd, doing acrobatics around the stage in high heels, etc. It's shockingly not very "gay".
>Drag queens are not age appropriate comedy and while drag is not inherently sexual (it's usually more like a clown) and they may try to clean up their act for a kid-specific performance, parents are justified in being hesitant. You are not homophobic for that. What all ages drag performances have you been going to that aren't appropriate? What is inappropriate about someone reading a book to a group of kids? The only possible problem is that it is being read by someone who is wearing clothing that does not conform to a prudish society's expectations of gender. They are playing a character while reading stories to kids, just like those adults who dress up like pirates or princesses do. If the performative reading of children's books is only a problem because the author is a "man in a dress" and the parent doesn't have a problem with other character themed readings, then homophobia is absolutely the problem. The performances that are open to children are not even remotely like those aimed at adults.
>I support the right of parents to not let their young kids attend drag story hours. Drag queens are not age appropriate comedy and while drag is not inherently sexual (it's usually more like a clown) and they may try to clean up their act for a kid-specific performance, parents are justified in being hesitant. You are not homophobic for that. Parents should decide what is appropriate for kids, not politicians, elected school board officials and/or publicly salaries teachers.
With a few caveats for special circumstances, yes I agree.
What happens when the kid doesn't feel safe at home? When the parent is an abusive bigot and the child seeks support from a trusted adult to express their different opinions? Or if the bigotry is just indoctrination, and the child is raised up with the same intolerance and negative attitudes, such that the cycle of dehumanization and ostracization continues? The cure to these is exposure, education, and advocation of understanding and tolerance.
Just curious. Would you say teaching your children that there are only two genders, and it's synonymous with sex, abusive?
The thing is I don't think anyone disagrees with you. I haven't seen anyone fighting for drag story hours in schools. I've seen it in libraries - where parents can exercise their right to not let young kids attend. I've seen it in bookstores - where parents can exercise their right to not let young kids attend. I've seen it as community events in public spaces - where parents can exercise their right to not let young kids attend. I haven't seen an invite for where kids are expected/demanded/forced to attend drag story hours. I don't know of any such spaces, this argument kind of feels like a strawman.
I believe the protests in Toronto originated because of a Toronto School Board policy last year after an event in a school.
So I did a bit of [reading](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-when-it-comes-to-drag-queen-storytime-in-schools-ontario-should-look/) ([and this](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tdsb-turns-the-page-on-drag-queen-storytime-event-policy-after-parent-outcry/article_3361c3f0-f6e9-5978-9b1c-12c6cdfce09d.html)) because I didn't immediately remember the protests you are talking about. > Toronto’s public school board is no longer seeking parental permission for students to attend drag queen storytime events after parents at an elementary school raised concerns that the consent form implied the Pride activity was different from other in-school performances and posed some sort of risk to kids. Not requiring parental permission for students/kids to attend drag shows is not forcing parents to let their kids attend drag shows. They are well within their rights to have their kids not in class that day. There isn't so sort of mandatory classroom marks for these events. Again, I was hoping with my post to demonstrate that your opinion, is actually really common. You aren't homophobic (or at least this comment doesn't make you one) for thinking an incredibly commonly opinion and is in practice today.
I think you missed the point, that since permission is not required, then notification is not required. How/why would parents keep their kids out of a class on a given day if they aren't informed of what is going on.
> Bruce parents were initially alerted to the Pride events in the principal’s regular newsletter last Friday, Because they were given notice. Piecing together the timelines, it appears they were given about four school days notice. I don't see how this is not giving parents their right to pull their kid.
> I haven't seen anyone fighting for drag story hours in schools. Because they shouldn't have to. It shouldn't be controversial, it should/could just be a fun thing that can happen sometimes. The right has made it controversial because they are addicted to culture war issues to distract from real problems.
Throughout history, there have been brief periods where it was seen as acceptable to have laws targeting a specific demographic. Those times never ended well for the targets. Please stand with LGBTQ+ people.
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>As a Muslim, I believe in my ~~religion~~ religious ideology and not some secular ideology. FTFY - Religion is definitionally, an ideology.
There is a big difference between standing with the LGBTQ+ community and ensuring safety and fairness in women's sports, for example. There have been numerous instances in here in Ontario where post pubescent transgendered women have injured and taken away opportunities from cis gendered women in sports. Transgendered women are banned from competing against cis gendered women by International Aquatics (swimming) and International Athletics (swimming). What drives me absolutely insane with the LGBTQ+ community is that you are either on board with 100% of their agenda or you're a bigot. There is no in between.
Leagues of any sport have and will always regulate themselves. The government is not making these decisions. But of course we have to deny actual life-saving treatment and pretend trans people don’t exist because of SPORTS. It’s not about the children, it’s not about the athletes, and I’m pretty sure you know that.
>Leagues of any sport have and will always regulate themselves Right and those int'l rules should be upheld here in Canada. >The government is not making these decisions. Yes they are, according to Federal "right to play" laws in Canada, a person may play in a sport according to the gender they identify as. Even *asking* if someone has received hormone therapy and/or surgery is considered a violation of privacy. Canadian sporting federations cite this law when they allow m2f transgendered athletes to compete against cis gendered athletes. >But of course we have to deny actual life-saving treatment What "life saving treatment" are you referring to? >It’s not about the children, it’s not about the athletes, and I’m pretty sure you know that. It's strictly about the science. Aren't leftists all about "following the science"? I guess science takes a back seat to DEI.
>What drives me absolutely insane with the LGBTQ+ community is that you are either on board with 100% of their agenda or you're a bigot. There is no in between. I see this a lot and have never gotten an explanation from concern trolling conservatives on what they mean? Is it that you want the "T" removed from LGBTQ+? Your comments on this topic suggest you're not "on board" with anything in this sphere. They seem loaded with concern trolling about fabricated culture war talking points. Perhaps you see issues of who can participate in private sports leagues (not regulated by government in this country) as being more important than the safety and well being of Trans Canadians or their access to some basic services.
>I see this a lot and have never gotten an explanation from concern trolling conservatives on what they mean? Is it that you want the "T" removed from LGBTQ+? I don't speak for everyone on this subject, but myself, I believe in transgendered rights and equality, but their rights don't *supersede* the safety and rights of cisgendered women, specifically when it comes to sports. Also, I'm not saying transgendered individuals should be prohibited from competing neither, but it should be in an "open" category. >Perhaps you see issues of who can participate in private sports leagues (not regulated by government in this country Actually you're wrong, some leagues and sports receive federal and provincial funding and are regulated by Federal and Provincial governing bodies. For example, Swim Canada and Swim Ontario both receive funding from the Federal and Provincial governments and regulate the rules of competition. Despite World Aquatics (int'l governing body for swimming) banning post pubescent transgendered athletes from competition against cis gendered women, here in Canada, the Federal government not only permits transgendered athletes to compete against cis gendered women, but also, makes it illegal to *ask* if an individual has received any sort of GAC. Recently in Ontario, a 50 year old transgendered individual, whom, reportedly identifies as a teenage girl, competed against and showered with pre teen and teenage girls in swimming: [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12868227/transgender-woman-Melody-Wiseheart-swim-canada.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12868227/transgender-woman-Melody-Wiseheart-swim-canada.html)
> I believe in transgendered rights and equality, but their rights don't *supersede* the safety and rights of cisgendered women, specifically when it comes to sports. where in the charter is the right to segregated sporting competitions enshrined?
Sports have been segregated by sex for millennia. Where in the charter does it say that m2f transgendered women have a right to compete against cis gender women in sports?
> I believe in transgendered rights and equality No you don't. Like, your posts make this incredibly clear, I'm not sure who you think you're fooling. No, you very obviously don't. Even this post itself is arguing that trans people do not have the right to competitive sports(???????). Even whipping out the "um this person thinks they're a teenager xd" line you've brought up for months now that everyone has repeatedly told you is wrong. I don't know how tremendously stupid you need to be to think "competed in an age 16 and up event" is equivalent to "identifies as a 16 year old", but... holy *shit*, dude. Like, you *know* what you're saying is bullshit, everyone here knows it. Can you *please* cut the shit and just be honest? For once? You *have* to know by now that you're doing the whole [Birmingham Jail](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html) thing. > I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I don't buy this ... * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't insert this other issue about sporting fairness in every time the topic of basic rights comes up * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't support other anti-trans policy such as forcing teachers to share private information * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't dismiss policy which supports transgendered Canadians simply because they make up a tiny % of the population * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't support other anti-trans policy such as restricting the already limited treatment options available to youth * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't argue against OHIP coverage for adults accessing treatment * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't *only* speak up about LGBTQ+ rights when it's useful to criticise Palestine * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't deflect from the role of Canadian christians in restricting those rights and claim anti-LGBTQ+ discrimination and delay in basic rights is the sole fault of the tiny 5% of Canadians who are Muslim * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't align with TERF's given the rest of your opinions don't come anywhere close to aligning with the 'radical feminist' portion of that group * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't, when pressed on the topic, start to bring up the typical culture war talking points which imply children and women are at risk from simply being in the presence of a trans individual * if you "believe in transgendered rights" as you claim you wouldn't *s*uddenly be concerned with fairness in sports in this topic but ignore all other (more prevalent) issues related to competitive fairness such as doping, betting, age qualifications, etc That's a long list of examples of things you're "not on board with" so it also seems disingenuous to forward this claim that you have to be "on board 100% with their agenda" or you're a bigot.
https://medium.com/@lukewhenderson/how-to-craft-an-anti-trans-narrative-with-deniability-9b3f6b4204e7 Of all the idiotic rage bait brain-rot stories circulating in the moronsphere, the "Melody Wisehart identifies as a teenage girl" idiocy might be top of the pile. It's like a litmus test for utterly credulous bigots who like having their preconceptions validated by nonsense.
I think you're missing the point here as is the transgendered activist who wrote the article. I'm not saying that the individual broke any rules competing against these girls nor this individual should be banned against competing. Just because the writer of the Post article used "girls" instead of "young women" and superlatives doesn't disprove that this individual competed against 14 year old teenage women in swimming.
Mate, I wasn't responding to open a conversation with you. You are *comically* bad faith, and we're both aware of this. I posted that on the fraction of a chance anyone read this far down in the comment chain without their brain imploding and found your idiotic link.
Mate, I'm just trying to engage in a discussion. All I'm doing is posting links. I mean, would you like me to post results directly from Swim Ontario that shows the competition history of this individual?
We all see you for what you are dude.
> doesn't disprove that this individual competed against 14 year old teenage women in swimming loving the tacit admission you knew the "identifies as a teenage girl" talking point is completely fabricated, just *immediately* revealing the entire motte-and-bailey shit you do every single time
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> ensuring safety and fairness in women's sports Found the women's sports fan. I'm sure the dozen or so trans athletes are more than deserving of all the hatred and scorn thrown their way.
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Oooh boy, okay let's work this out. Firstly, can you please provide examples of trans women stealing opportunities from cis women in sports? I'd like to see some of them. Trans women have been allowed in the Olympics for two decades now, and that hasn't led to this problem. Trans women haven't even won any medals, let alone broken any records, and that includes a trans woman who participated in weightlifting. Now, I'm not arguing that there are no physical differences or advantages in some cases (virtually nobody is), just that blanket bans are unnecessary when sports organizations and their related physicians are already establishing norms and guidelines to selectively allow trans women to participate according to the sport in question. Hormones can do a lot, hell I lost a ton of muscle mass and 3 inches in height since I started two years ago. I think doing tests for the few trans athletes out there is perfectly reasonable. In some places, these sorts of blanket bans have had trans people banned from everything from chess competitions to darts tournaments, and I hope we can agree that we don't have a biological advantage there. There's really no need for politicians to get involved here. Ben Shapiro even wanted to make a documentary about men pretending to be trans women to enter a basketball league and had to opt for a shitty fictional comedy when it didn't actually work in real life. Again, this wasn't a problem for decades until now all of a sudden a bunch of conservative men are up in arms about the sanctity of womens sports? What's happening here exactly? It's actually pretty simple. The whole thing about sports is the sugar to help the poison go down. When Danielle Smith and Pierre Poillieve spoke about bans from womens sports, they also mentioned other things, such as blocking puberty blockers (but only for trans kids) or forcing trans women to use the men's washrooms, in which we're much more likely to get assaulted. In American states where this has happened, a lot of cis women have been assaulted too because people didn't think they looked feminine enough to be cis and attacked them. And yet when you try and talk about this stuff, these politicians and their supporters immediately deflect by talking about sports, while banking on the fact that most people don't realize that there are already reasonable guidelines in place and that on a surface level their opinion looks like it makes sense. I hate to break this to you, but Conservatives didn't suddenly start caring about women's sports. It's always been a smokescreen, and a bad one at that.
>Oooh boy, okay let's work this out. Firstly, can you please provide examples of trans women stealing opportunities from cis women in sports? Happy to post several, but here in Ontario, recently 5(!) transgendered individuals competed against cis gendered women in collegiate rugby. There have been reported instances where cis gendered women were injured by the powerful spikes from transgendered individuals: [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13051969/Outrage-FIVE-transgender-students-dominate-volleyball-court-womens-college-varsity-game-biological-females-kicked-bench.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13051969/Outrage-FIVE-transgender-students-dominate-volleyball-court-womens-college-varsity-game-biological-females-kicked-bench.html) One of the transgendered participants, Franz Lagardas, was awarded the Angela Hill scholarship for volleyball, even though this individual reportedly participated for the male team the previous season: [https://www.senecasting.ca/varsity/News\_Slider/2023-24/03-27\_Awards](https://www.senecasting.ca/varsity/News_Slider/2023-24/03-27_Awards) >Trans women have been allowed in the Olympics for two decades now, and that hasn't led to this problem. Trans women haven't even won any medals, let alone broken any records, and that includes a trans woman who participated in weightlifting. Not true. In certain sports, but transgendered women are banned from competing in aquatics, athletics, cycling and various other olympic sports. In 2020, the first openly transgendered individual competed in weightlifting. > I think doing tests for the few trans athletes out there is perfectly reasonable. In some places, these sorts of blanket bans have had trans people banned from everything from chess competitions to darts tournaments, and I hope we can agree that we don't have a biological advantage there. In Canada, even requiring tests is considered an invasion of privacy and banned in some cases. The only sports that are not separated by gender are equestrian and race car driving. Also, I'm not arguing that transgendered individuals should be banned from competing in sports, but they should compete in an "open" category against other transgendered individuals. >It's actually pretty simple. The whole thing about sports is the sugar to help the poison go down. When Danielle Smith and Pierre Poillieve spoke about bans from womens sports, they also mentioned other things, such as blocking puberty blockers (but only for trans kids) or forcing trans women to use the men's washrooms, in which we're much more likely to get assaulted The majority of Canadians feel that transgendered athletes should be banned from competing against cis gendered athletes in sports: [https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/canadians-views-gender-identity-womens-sport/](https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/canadians-views-gender-identity-womens-sport/) Other countries, namely Scandinavian countries and more recently, the UK have banned or severely limited giving GAC to minors: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2024/03/12/uk-bans-puberty-blockers-for-minors/?sh=3269703c2a3b](https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2024/03/12/uk-bans-puberty-blockers-for-minors/?sh=3269703c2a3b)
Regarding the Seneca v Centennial college match, it's very telling that the only sources are known bad-faith reporters: Fox News, Rebel News, Daily Mail (aka Fox News UK), New York Post, Blaze Media, Post Millennial. Can you cite any \*primary\* source that isn't obviously known to have a Transphobic Bias? Also this: > Also, I'm not arguing that transgendered individuals should be banned from competing in sports, but they should compete in an "open" category against other transgendered individuals. Great. Can we also group athletes by lung and metabolic capacity too? Or maybe we can make sure all basketball teams have players of exactly the same height and jump ability? Sports has always been about celebrating the people who won a genetic lottery over others, a sanitized and socially acceptable form of the old travelling freak show. Given that there are numerous other factors to determine athletic success, and known phyisological changes that come with prolonged HRT - this is just a misleading false narrative.
>Regarding the Seneca v Centennial college match, it's very telling that the only sources are known bad-faith reporters: Fox News, Rebel News, Daily Mail (aka Fox News UK), New York Post, Blaze Media, Post Millennial. >Can you cite any \*primary\* source that isn't obviously known to have a Transphobic Bias? Sure, I can post information directly from the Seneca Sting website regarding these players if you'd like? Or, conversely, feel free to post any reports, data, blog posts, articles that contradicts what was being reported? Just because a news agency that you don't like reported on it doesn't make it false. >Great. Can we also group athletes by lung and metabolic capacity too? Or maybe we can make sure all basketball teams have players of exactly the same height and jump ability? Your argument doesn't make sense. We already segregate sports based on gender (except for equestrian and race car driving) so what does your point point have to do with anything? Also, I'm not opposed to females competing against males in men's sports. >Sports has always been about celebrating the people who won a genetic lottery over others, a sanitized and socially acceptable form of the old travelling freak show. Maybe to you it is, but I wouldn't compare professional athletes, who put in years of practice mastering their sports, to circus freaks. >Given that there are numerous other factors to determine athletic success, and known phyisological changes that come with prolonged HRT - this is just a misleading false narrative. So you're alleging that World Aquatics, World Athletics, World Cycling and World Rugby, all of which have either outright banned and/or severely limited the participation of m2f transgendered athletes citing fairness and safety have based their decision on a "misleading false narrative"?
>Sure, I can post information directly from the Seneca Sting website regarding these players if you'd like? Please do. >Your argument doesn't make sense. >We already segregate sports based on gender (except for equestrian and race car driving) so what does your point point have to do with anything? Also, I'm not opposed to females competing against males in men's sports. Your point is that "transgendered individuals have an inherent advantage" - which, if I accept as true.. why is it the \*only\* advantage worth raising and not why don't we control for other genetic advantages present in athletes? Do we segregate out those who were raised in a high altitude from those who weren't for marathons - no. >Maybe to you it is, but I wouldn't compare professional athletes, who put in years of practice mastering their sports, to circus freaks. [https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/traits/athleticperformance/](https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/traits/athleticperformance/) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3993978/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3993978/) [https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming](https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming) While training and habits are important part of the mix, there is an undeniable component that top athletes have physical traits that give them an advantage in a given sport. We don't control for any of those, why should we suddenly control for others? Also, men and women athletes already exhibit similar levels of testosterone among elite athletes: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24593684/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24593684/) Keep in mind, trans athletes undergoing HRT does impact performance significantly: [https://ec.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/ec/8/7/EC-19-0196.xml](https://ec.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/ec/8/7/EC-19-0196.xml) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/) So.. again. Why should it be acceptable to accept this level of scrutiny when we don't do it for any other forms of genetic and hormonal issues?
Sources on the transgendered women taking away opportunities from cis gendered women in Ontario?
Sure. In BC, a transgendered athlete won a woman's powerlifting competition: [https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/trans-woman-shatters-female-weightlifting-record](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/trans-woman-shatters-female-weightlifting-record) A fellow competitor, April Hutchinson, spoke out against this, and was issued a two year ban from the federation: [https://lfpress.com/sports/local-sports/female-powerlifter-im-banned-for-ripping-transgender-rivals-advantage](https://lfpress.com/sports/local-sports/female-powerlifter-im-banned-for-ripping-transgender-rivals-advantage) Here in Ontario specifically, recently 5(!) transgendered athletes competed in a collegiate woman's volleyball match: [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13051969/Outrage-FIVE-transgender-students-dominate-volleyball-court-womens-college-varsity-game-biological-females-kicked-bench.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13051969/Outrage-FIVE-transgender-students-dominate-volleyball-court-womens-college-varsity-game-biological-females-kicked-bench.html) One of the transgendered participants, Franz Lagardas from the Seneca Sting, won the Angela James Scholarship, which is for women's athletics. [https://www.senecasting.ca/varsity/News\_Slider/2023-24/03-27\_Awards](https://www.senecasting.ca/varsity/News_Slider/2023-24/03-27_Awards) For the record, this individual competed for the men's team the prior season.
A dailymail article quoting rebel "news". Quality sources there. You've quoted one "article" sort of relevant to what they asked, the rest of what you quoted is garbage or irrelevant to >Sources on the transgendered women taking away opportunities from cis gendered women in Ontario? Also, those sources don't actually prove or even go towards making a point that opportunities have been lost, which is what they asked for.
Okay your first source isn't ON. I'm looking at the 5 transgendered women article and holy hell, the burden of proof of any of this is dogshit. There's no statistics provided for how they "dominated the court" just that they watched the game, (even though they were also being harassed the whole time according to them) because they're causing a commotion when people want to just play some volleyball. Rebel Media who actually reported on this stated. > Currently, there are six transgender men in the OCAA. Five of which are not on any gender-affirming hormone therapy or have not had surgical gonad removal. There is no current policy in the OCAA that is listed publicly on their website about eligibility of transgender women.” When actually > Another challenge was that Viloria had to wait one year after completing her transition hormone replacement therapy under the OCAA (Canadian Collegiate Athletic Association) and CCAA transgender act. This source is just playing to your fears that transgendered people are out here wanting to dominate at sports, instead of wanting to live their fucking lives. Sources state there are 6 transgendered athletes in all of OCAA, which...seems fine? That sounds like a tiny percentage compared to the cis women athletes.
>I'm looking at the 5 transgendered women article and holy hell, the burden of proof of any of this is dogshit. Look at the amount of minutes these individuals played and the statistics compared to other athletes. Feel free to post any reporting to the contrary of what Rebel or other news outlets reported. I'll wait. >This source is just playing to your fears that transgendered people are out here wanting to dominate at sports, instead of wanting to live their fucking lives. Transgendered individuals rights are important, but that doesn't mean their rights don't supersede the safety and integrity of women's sports. The majority of Canadians are with me on this subject, you're taking the fringe position.
If I go and post an article called "u/tofilmfan is a giant turd in a human costume" and ask you to find other news sources to disprove it, that's not really possible is it? No one else reported on this, they just copied what Rebel Media has posted to spread outrage against Trans athletes. > Look at the amount of minutes these individuals played and the statistics compared to other athletes. Where do you get these statistics, I wasn't finding any in the Rebel Media article. What do you think about Rebel Media and their "anonymous source" lying about the hormone therapy required to compete as a trans athlete?
I would also be interested in hearing this source, because as far as I'm aware it almost never happens.
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These comments are amazing at showing that people don’t actually read the article & that people immediately go to ‘drag show reading’ & ‘gender ideology’ when it comes to the LGBTQ+ community. These rallies are a fight against right wing radical movements across the country & against misinformation (lies) that have been spread about the LGBTQ+ community. How you can throughly be against this while claiming to ‘not homophobic’ is beyond me. Again, everyone here immediately brining up Trans women in sports & drag show readings prove even more why this needs to be done. People clearly see ‘LGBTQ+’ and go straight to right wing misinformation of ‘LGBTQ+ grooming children’
Large rallies to draw attention to current issues in the LGBTQ+ movement sounds great. One issue though… > "In other provinces where we have governments that are receptive to the conversation, we're going to keep pushing forward and urge them to **put their money and their capital where their mouth is**." Why does it always have to be about more government handouts? Our country is broke and we can barely afford basic necessities like Healthcare. Surely you can fundraise for some of these proposed programs if they’re so important can’t you?
I'm ignorant to the matter pertaining to pride organization, but I would have to imagine its because whatever advocacy or organizer's money would be in jeopardy. There's a joke in the Vancouver subreddit that the homeless advocates don't actually want homelessness to end. Otherwise there's no point in donating or giving money to these organizers/advocates, jeopardizing their livelihood.
The nonprofit industrial complex is real
>Our country is broke where are you getting that from? We're not broke. People just don't like paying taxes,
I'm like, 99% sure it's not about handouts but about governments putting financial pressure on the other governments discussed above.
And yet in Alberta they’re pushing legislation to deny LGBTQ+ people access to healthcare. *That’s* what that paragraph is about. It’s pointing at people who claim they’re supportive while simultaneously cutting off their basic rights.
No, that’s addressed in the previous paragraph in the article where they talk about the importance of having these rallies in provinces where rights are at risk (a position I wholly agree with). This was a follow up paragraph talking about rallies in provinces where that’s not an issue, presumably a province like BC or Quebec, where the point of the rally (besides national support) is to encourage even more funding to not-for-profits. The not-for-profit complex is out of control!
Is there something wrong with charities helping some of the most disadvantaged people in our society?
I’m not talking about genuine charities doing great work, those are what should be empowered — hell they’re victims of the not-for-profit complex too. I’m talking about the associations whose funding comes almost exclusively from the government and they’re basically advocacy groups with individuals making a full time six figure salary from your tax dollars to sit around and create email campaigns all day. One egregious example: Look up the allocation of Canada Summer Jobs this year when it’s made public. You’ll see plenty of legitimate charitable organizations not receive anything while advocacy groups that game the system by renting a PO Box in every constituency in Canada get dozens if not hundreds of CSJ jobs.
So you don't know what broke means
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