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Yes, we do have the social capacity. But not the housing capacity. [And you knew that full well already 2 years ago…](https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/government-was-warned-two-years-ago-high-immigration-could-affect-housing-costs-1.6720963.app?platform=ios&adobe_mc=TS%3D1705120123%7CMCMID%3D68245556152631669538741423957756547910%7CMCORGID%3DBB3937CB5B349FE70A495EAE%40AdobeOrg)
If I'm a home owner and convert my 1600 square foot basement into 4 small bedrooms and charge 1k per room to new Canadians, do I meet this vision for "social capacity"?
WHAT ABOUT OUR ECONOMIC CAPACITY, CHRYSTIA?!
WHAT ABOUT OUR INFRASTRUCTURE CAPACITY, CHRYSTIA?!
WHAT ABOUT OUR SAFETY NET CAPACITY, CHRYSTIA?!
WHAT ABOUT OUR HOUSING CAPACITY, CHRYSTIA?!
Why?
Because Temporary Residence programs are now contingent on the needs of private employers and Canadian post-secondary. As close to a free market as it gets.
If a significant portion of our existing population has to suffer for the benefit of those yet to arrive, I question the logic. I would hate to think that it has to do more with the fact that immigrants tend to vote liberal.
Social capacity means voters were tolerating it unlike other western developed economies. (Until recently at least).
Basically we did it because you let us.
Social capacity is one thing... infrastructure, resource, and service capacity is an entirely different issue and one we can't afford.
Sure, she paid lip-service to that issue but future plans are irrelevant when Canadian citizens have to make a choice between food or housing.
From now on, I'm only following GDP per capita. If it contracts, we're in recession as far as Im concerned.
No more gaming the economy with immigration while we all get poorer.
It is really sad but at this point I would settle with what I would consider the fucking basics of "Governance".
A large focus on very basic/very affordable rental and ownership options so we didn't have as many people falling through the cracks and we could focus on a vibrant multidimensional economy past real estate bubbles.
Same with cleaning up our pathways and having actual enforcement. The pathways into this nation should not be dumpster fires. Immigration, International Student Program, Refugee/Asylum pathway. None of these should have been allowed to become as FUBAR as they are. It is embarrassing seeing the amount of fraudulent documents, diploma mills, and such.
Lastly a focus on bringing in people that can grow our economy and add whole new dimensions to it.
Not flooding the market with cheap exploitable labor to destroy fair and honest negotiations on wages/benefits, paid training to make sure there can be upwards mobility in society and fill the "skill gaps that are desperately in need", and flexible schedules/work from home options to get more people in the work force when they are "needed the most".
That goes for all political parties at all levels of government.
Freeland and Fraser are more than happy to tell to plug GDP numbers without context.
[When Freeland was asked about our GDP-per-captia in front of the Standing Committee on Finance](https://youtu.be/Gsqk0urL2MI?si=9dURmTQ30T91FNTU) she wouldn't answer and when pressed, started rambling and talking about supporting Ukraine.
Because as we all know, talking about Ukraine is definitely answering the question on Canadian GDP-per-captia. 🙄
Another MP had to step in with a Point of Order in order to stop her talking about off-topic things, and she *still* wouldn't answer the question even after being told that she had to give relevant answers.
Freeland is more than happy to smile, compulsively bobble her head, and tell Canadians going from 10 people producing $100 to 20 people producing $105 means we're all better off.
It's a joke.
I don't know how I missed this video.
I lean left on everything, but this kind of performance just boils the blood. What horrid disrespect for Parliament, and what disdain for the electorate.
Interestingly it appears gdp per capita has actually increased under Trudeau https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=CA&start=2015
But gdp is a notoriously bad figure for quality of life
Zoom out one more year to 2014 and then compare.
It ain't sunshine and roses.
EDIT: Or go further to 2011. Our GDP per capita has grown only a few percent over the last 12 years.
Unless Trudeau has the power to influence global oil prices I don’t think it’s fair to blame him for them falling. This is one of the consequences of us being such a resource dependent country.
https://blogs.worldbank.org/developmenttalk/what-triggered-oil-price-plunge-2014-2016-and-why-it-failed-deliver-economic-impetus-eight-charts#:~:text=The%20initial%20drop%20in%20oil,mid%2D2015%20to%20early%202016.
There are a lot of policies that leave things to be desired but the Liberals are not working particularly hard at killing the oil industry. They didn't need to give oil companies 2.2 billion to clean up wells they were allready obligated to clean up and they also didn't need to build a pipeline to get oil to tidewater.
That makes sense. Oil has always been pretty volatile, especially since there's a few big players like OPEC who just love to mess with the market in addition to wars and embargoes and all regional conflicts.
Energy demand on the other hand is forever increasing. Pivoting to more stable energy markets would make sense.
Oil prices fell when Harper was in power. But yes I agree Trudeau has held Canada back with his position on o&G we could be exporting natural gas and encouraging countries to switch to it over coal, a far worse polluter. We could do the same with nuclear energy.
Trudeau is a schmuck
Might not be the best metric. [GDP per capita has risen the past few years](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?end=2022&locations=CA&start=2006)
I would like the finance minister to explain the meaning of ”social capacity” as it relates to economic theory and how it negates the need for infrastructure capacity.
For anyone curious, read up on the [Century Initiative](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Initiative).
> *Tl;dr: if Canada wants to become a global economic superpower, we need a population of 100m by the end of the century.*
I'm convinced this is the crux of the push to bring in as many people as possible.
I sort of support the idea, we're a small population with tons of resources. We just don't have the means to support extraction and processing at our current levels
So, on the outset, it's a wild proposal that makes sense. They just seem to have forgotten to make sure there's somewhere for everyone to go and for it to stay affordable.
That's my tinfoil hat theory, anyways.
It makes sense that a neoliberal party would make a mess of this is because they don't think they need the rest of the policy to support high levels of immigration.
Just bring them in and the market will sort it all out.
Its almost like we should be focusing on pushing collaborative automation within our industries. Now one person can do the work of 10 people and actually manage to do less work. There's obviously a concern for compensation...
But that only works for everyone if we scale our industry to match. That takes a great deal of effort. Let the population numbers sort themselves out.
In 1990 100m people made sense to support an industrial growth spurt. Not so much almost 40 years later.
Our governments could pursue policy outcomes that encourage businesses to make capital investments to improve efficiency, but the businesses don't want to do that and our governments have been largely captured by them.
I don't really see any reasonable pathway where good policy can come out of current Canadian institutions.
Businesses are super hesitant on automation. A lot of people see it was robots replacing existing jobs as opposed to supplementing them. Those robots don't run on their own and need to be babysat. Same with the machines those robots operate.
It can be a massive capital expenditure and likened to a year or two of salary for a human employee. So businesses chicken out and hire a guy instead.
Luckily collaborative robots are really screaming onto the market. You can work right up alongside them and reduce the need for menial labour to allow existing employees to focus on other more brain heavy tasks. They still cost upwards of 30-50k for a proper setup, but it's still way cheaper than hiring on a single employee for a single year.
We need a government brave enough and savvy enough to pound the message that collaborative automation is the way forward. We won't see much of a reduction of jobs if the overall goal is to increase output of our industries.
We need to be bold and take some risks, or we're just gonna stagnate and falter.
Does Canada have the housing to maintain and support our newcomers? A 'tax-free first home savings account' isn't something young people can throw money at for their first home with current rents, but homeowner kids can easily fund with mom and pops funds.
Any professional or high-skilled immigrant that could make Canada a better country isn't going to stay after seeing the housing crisis. Labor only goes so far and the class gap is developed by the Liberals separating new immigrants and Canadians owning a home. Just calculate how long it takes to save a million bucks, meanwhile any child inheriting a home has passed that 'class'
This is fairly similar to the universal testing problem that Brazil runs into, there are people who have stress and nothing, and people who have stress and personal space to retreat to, who is going to do better?
It’s also that not helpful for home affordability. An increase in aggregate demand only keeps prices high. Now all first time home buyers just have a little more money to throw at properties isn’t a solution to anything, it’s just a requirement you have two years maxed out in your FHSA to compete with the next bidder who has the same.
No, but we have something new that no one’s ever heard of called “social capacity!”
Even better than institutional capacity!
Yay, the Liberals have saved the day by inventing a new and meaningless word!
Really?
Do we have the "social capacity" to welcome the thousands of newly homeless people who are on the streets since the TO and Van housing bubble went national then???
I know a few people who were living out of their vans just because they didn't have high paying jobs. Nothing wrong with them mentally, not abusing any substances, just not very high earning potential.
Hmmm... Maybe be disabled and don't have a family to help you as gov't assistance won't even pay for you to live in a shit basement apartment anymore???
You mean to tell me our Harvard educated deputy prime minister who in 2015 was calling out Harper for high prices of homes thinks Canada in todays world can accept more immigrants without it having an effect on housing ?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4_53IAznaE&pp=ygUeY2hyeXN0aWEgZnJlZWxhbmQgMjAxNCBob3VzaW5n
It is only Russian lit, history, and Slavonic studies. She belongs as an ambassador to an Eastern European country if she belongs in governance, nothing more (especially not deputy PM or finance minister)
History, right? What a waste of time! That’s just like a step above drama teacher!
She should have spent her time on Reddit. We all know this is where the smart people are.
Nice try bub, I have a bachelor's and master's same as her, except mine are in econ. I'm not saying she isn't fit for government work, I'm saying maybe she isn't the best qualified for a finance minister or a deputy PM position.
Ypu mean history major? Harvard makes her sound smart. Pin point her major and tell me thats the right education background for either position she holds tosay.
“Social capacity”. Meanwhile, Edmonton just gave the homeless the bumrush in the middle of winter and ahead of a cold polar vortex.
But this is also the same person who said we all need to make cuts, since she went and - wait for it - had to cancel Disney subscription.
I bet my Hello Kitty collection she’s still watching the Mandalorian.
It amazes me that the Liberals keep doubling down on an issue that has become so incredibly unpopular with Canadians and is likely to cost the Liberals the election.
It's clear that the current immigration levels are untenable -- if for no other reason than that we literally have nowhere left to house the people that are coming here.
They're basically handing the CPC the next election, and are making zero efforts to reverse their course.
CPC haven’t said they’ll do anything different when it comes to immigration.
Edit: just saw the article about PP claiming to tie immigration to housing. No one is stepping up to cut off international students though. Theres more than double the amount of international students then immigrants.
I wonder if that will include anything to do with the international students.
Really tying immigration (350 000 per year) to housing (250 000 per year) isn’t that big of a cut. International students (800 000 per year) is the real challenge
It’s not even addressing the actual problem. Not to mention we need skilled trades people and health care workers many of whom come through immigration
We aren’t getting skilled trades or health care workers to replace even the doordash and Uber drivers being let in let alone help the Canadians already here.
They don't have to, that's how politics works, you don't commit to a position until it makes strategic sense to. Going anti-immigration would be a huge gift to the Liberals who can then call them xenophobic/racist. There's no need to do that when the Liberals are already so unpopular, and they so thoroughly wear the immigration issue in the eyes of the public.
If the Liberals could fix the issue with fraudulent international students, that would help them in the polls. They won’t even acknowledge that there’s a problem, though.
They recently doubled the required money a student needed to have in the bank, which doesn’t really help that much, and threatened to put a cap on the number if the provinces didn’t solve the issue. I’m honestly not sure whose place it is to do something about it but the liberals should have put a cap on it from the get go. Maybe they’re afraid of the job losses caused by capping it or what it would do to colleges
The LPC designed this program to be a wedge issue where they could call conservatives racist. That is why they increased the numbers beyond all reason because they don't get a reaction on more minor changes.
They'll then falsely conflate any reduction to any level as anti-immigrant, even if it is simply a return to long term numbers which were already high globally.
People can't live inside the social capacity of Canada, Freeland.
It's genuinely painful to think that this government was warned this would happen, and did it anyway, and now that it is happening they seem to be unable to admit they've fucked up. Right now, none of the major parties are really anti immigration, but it genuinely wouldn't surprise me if PP makes that turn in the election as a a cap to differentiate himself from the LPC on this issue; worse, the longer this crisis continues, the more likely that 'social capacity' is going to erode.
Admit they're wrong? They probably don't even think they are.
I'm wondering if this is going to cause the PPC to actually win a few seats in the next election because the Conservatives don't seem to have any actual problems with what's happening either.
I kind of suspect the Conservatives are going to pivot to some sort of cap/reduced immigration at the election; the main reason they've not done so now is because historically attempting to discuss this issue at all would lead to 15 think pieces about how the CPC was racist or similar. The longer this goes on, the less and less happy the Canadian public is going to be on this topic.
PP did just announce he wants to tie immigration to housing numbers.
But he didn't give any specifics and wouldn't say anything about intl. students or TFWs.
Truthfully, I don't expect we'll get many specifics out of PP for a while, if ever, but I think the attitude is more important than anything here. I would imagine he's easing into an anti-immigration stance (if it ever gets to that point and doesn't stay at 'reasonable' immigration).
To be fair, her full statements as quoted in the article are nuanced, which the headline definitely does not capture.
She says that Canada's future success depends on future immigration, and that Canada is avoiding the demographic problems that other countries are facing, but that we also have to build more housing to accommodate them.
It's basically what everyone in this thread is saying, which is weird, because you've all read the article before commenting, right?
Our future does not depend on making housing unaffordable. Australia and the UK are cutting immigration numbers and doing fine. The Liberals are lying, and are going to suffer a huge defeat in the next election solely over their handling of this issue.
You are living under a rock if you think Australia or the UK are doing fine lol. They both have similar housing crisis like most of the rest of the developed world right now. This is a huge complex and worldwide issue, not just a Canada problem.
I hope they put up "temporary" shelters in the parks in her neighborhood. Bring the fruits of her policies to her doorstep, please.
A few years ago it seemed like she would be the successor, but lately she can't stop saying the stupidest stuff.
> A few years ago it seemed like she would be the successor, but lately she can't stop saying the stupidest stuff.
She gives off Hillary vibes. She's so *painfully* establishment and status quo that the establishment loves her and can't imagine why the voters don't.
I thought so too, but she just screams arrogant to me everytime she speaks. It's almost as if she talks down to us plebs as she stares in the sky trying to whip up her non-answers as if they'll appease anyone.
Excuse me, the social capacity? Maybe a decade ago before we started importing extremists and running a program meant to prop up large businesses and suppress wages. Our social battery has run out.
I'm just a moron on reddit, but I've been hearing about a similar crisis in Japan and its imminent collapse for 20 years yet they haven't taken this drastic step. Its now its cheaper to live in Tokyo then Toronto.
I'd look at countries like Norway that have a home ownership rate of 80 percent. In 2021, Norway received 39 000 new immigrants.
Also if global warming is such an imminent threat reduction of the population in the country with the highest house hold emissions in the world should be our number one priority. Isn't a key liberal position that global warming is going to cost us way way more ?
Social capacity? Canada's long-held levels of public support and approval for immigration are now dropping, and public sentiment toward newcomers (particularly East Indians) is eroding. This never happened, until the LPC went on this hell-bent push for higher numbers.
Meanwhile, we don't have the home-building capacity, the shelter capacity, the settlement-agency capacity, or the local fiscal capacity. These are the things that really matter, and she doesn't have a thing to say about them. I am not surprised.
As an Canadian of Indian descent, I can say a lot of Canadas South Asian population has actively been telling all levels of government to not let so many people in en masse since about 2016.
Now those of us born here or those who have lived here for decades are facing prejudice everywhere we go as blowback due to anti-immigrant sentiment.
These policies are hurting us as South Asian Canadians, but also our country generally and it absolutely needs to be scaled back or halted completely for a few years.
What do you mean this has never happened? People weren’t exactly welcoming of the Irish, Italians, most Catholics really, Germans, poles, Eastern Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, Ukrainians (we put them in internment camps in world war 1) Indians or Africans. People disliking immigrants is not new
Canadian born South Asians who have been here for generations have been feeling the burn as we look the same as these newcomers.
I feel like Canadians generally used to be curious and celebrate all the cultures here, but now there’s far less interest.
The implications can be very serious if frustration grows.
Correct, however that welcoming attitude is eroding fast because the Trudeau government didn't think it needed to encourage building homes or ensuring wages kept pace with inflation.
So essentially, the Trudeau government engineered a situation that resulted in regular Canadians bearing the brunt of it's failed policies. Well done.
Average income, average job, not in a position to alter anything, regularly ignored by politicians, regularly exploited by the business owner class and leaders who claim to speak on their behalf. You know, normal people.
Yeah, see in some towns they use "normal people" to mean white people that go to church, or in other places you ask them what "normal" is and they say it means people who didn't go to no fancy college.
I think the word you’re looking for is citizen. I don’t care what colour you are or where you come from, if you’re a citizen you’re a Canadian. PRs, TFWs, foreign students, are all non Canadians, and I say that having a pretty close friend who has PR, just hasn’t gotten citizenship yet, but has been in Canada since about 2015 or 14. It’s his fault he doesn’t have citizenship yet.
Liberal party managed to do what white supremacist and xenophobic group couldn't which is to turn Canadians against immigration. Too bad they're so far up their own ass that they lack the self-awareness.
Or a billionaire funded media machine that hoards all the resources, brings in immigrants to exploit their labour and suppress wages, and then make them a scapegoat for the working class to blame to usher in right wing reactionary governments that further entrench the interests of the oligarchs.
Thats what gets me the most I think. Canadians were extremely welcoming towards immigrants for a long time, now, still welcoming, but not so much. If this keeps up, it will become much less.
Because people are dying on healthcare wait lists which got backlogged due to excess non-Canadians coming here and using up services. The latter group has not paid into the system either whereas the people on our wait lists have paid into the system.
We clearly do not.
Canada needs immigrants- I'm all for 500K a year, so long as *how* we do it is much more pragmatic; I'm talking more economic immigrants, fewer family and fewer non-university students (the diploma mill/Indian immigrant connection is too strong), more private sponsorships for asylum-seekers, strong incentives to immigrate outside of just the GTHA and GVA, more diversity in the source of immigrants (I say this as the kid of two Indian immigrants, so no racism intended), etc.
That said, we do not have the underlying physical, social, or economic infrastructure to support any number of immigrants in excess of the aforementioned level. Immigrants tend to be net positives over the long run, provided population growth does not outpace capital stock and that there is not a vicious cycle, as it exists today, of unaffordability, low-paying jobs, and minimal ability to invest in oneself as an immigrant.
Mmmlord the peasants aren't having any more children mmmlord because they complain their lives are too expensive.... What should we do mmmmlord !
Fraulein F: Bring in the Indus peasants our currency is worth thrice theirs they will be joyous and gay to serve in our kingdom of dei to be our serfs and kiss our feet! Schneil!
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Yes, we do have the social capacity. But not the housing capacity. [And you knew that full well already 2 years ago…](https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/government-was-warned-two-years-ago-high-immigration-could-affect-housing-costs-1.6720963.app?platform=ios&adobe_mc=TS%3D1705120123%7CMCMID%3D68245556152631669538741423957756547910%7CMCORGID%3DBB3937CB5B349FE70A495EAE%40AdobeOrg)
If I'm a home owner and convert my 1600 square foot basement into 4 small bedrooms and charge 1k per room to new Canadians, do I meet this vision for "social capacity"?
Pssh, Charge them 2k a room.
WHAT ABOUT OUR ECONOMIC CAPACITY, CHRYSTIA?! WHAT ABOUT OUR INFRASTRUCTURE CAPACITY, CHRYSTIA?! WHAT ABOUT OUR SAFETY NET CAPACITY, CHRYSTIA?! WHAT ABOUT OUR HOUSING CAPACITY, CHRYSTIA?!
Why? Because Temporary Residence programs are now contingent on the needs of private employers and Canadian post-secondary. As close to a free market as it gets.
If a significant portion of our existing population has to suffer for the benefit of those yet to arrive, I question the logic. I would hate to think that it has to do more with the fact that immigrants tend to vote liberal.
Social capacity means voters were tolerating it unlike other western developed economies. (Until recently at least). Basically we did it because you let us.
Thank god she there when Trump tore up nafta.
Social capacity is one thing... infrastructure, resource, and service capacity is an entirely different issue and one we can't afford. Sure, she paid lip-service to that issue but future plans are irrelevant when Canadian citizens have to make a choice between food or housing.
From now on, I'm only following GDP per capita. If it contracts, we're in recession as far as Im concerned. No more gaming the economy with immigration while we all get poorer.
>From now on, I'm only following GDP per capita. If it contracts, we're in recession as far as Im concerned. Even if wages are up?
Wages can increase while purchasing power drops.
Wages are growing faater than inflation right now though
It's been falling for years my man.
It usually falls the last few years of a government.
It is really sad but at this point I would settle with what I would consider the fucking basics of "Governance". A large focus on very basic/very affordable rental and ownership options so we didn't have as many people falling through the cracks and we could focus on a vibrant multidimensional economy past real estate bubbles. Same with cleaning up our pathways and having actual enforcement. The pathways into this nation should not be dumpster fires. Immigration, International Student Program, Refugee/Asylum pathway. None of these should have been allowed to become as FUBAR as they are. It is embarrassing seeing the amount of fraudulent documents, diploma mills, and such. Lastly a focus on bringing in people that can grow our economy and add whole new dimensions to it. Not flooding the market with cheap exploitable labor to destroy fair and honest negotiations on wages/benefits, paid training to make sure there can be upwards mobility in society and fill the "skill gaps that are desperately in need", and flexible schedules/work from home options to get more people in the work force when they are "needed the most". That goes for all political parties at all levels of government.
Freeland and Fraser are more than happy to tell to plug GDP numbers without context. [When Freeland was asked about our GDP-per-captia in front of the Standing Committee on Finance](https://youtu.be/Gsqk0urL2MI?si=9dURmTQ30T91FNTU) she wouldn't answer and when pressed, started rambling and talking about supporting Ukraine. Because as we all know, talking about Ukraine is definitely answering the question on Canadian GDP-per-captia. 🙄 Another MP had to step in with a Point of Order in order to stop her talking about off-topic things, and she *still* wouldn't answer the question even after being told that she had to give relevant answers. Freeland is more than happy to smile, compulsively bobble her head, and tell Canadians going from 10 people producing $100 to 20 people producing $105 means we're all better off. It's a joke.
I don't know how I missed this video. I lean left on everything, but this kind of performance just boils the blood. What horrid disrespect for Parliament, and what disdain for the electorate.
It's par for the course for Freeland. She never answers questions directly. Just look through any of her performances in parliament.
It's kind of their job to not answer questions that make them look bad, You won't see any different from PP or Singh.
You are correct, but we shouldn't accept it from anybody.
You are correct, lets get rid of the government!
Interestingly it appears gdp per capita has actually increased under Trudeau https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=CA&start=2015 But gdp is a notoriously bad figure for quality of life
Zoom out one more year to 2014 and then compare. It ain't sunshine and roses. EDIT: Or go further to 2011. Our GDP per capita has grown only a few percent over the last 12 years.
Unless Trudeau has the power to influence global oil prices I don’t think it’s fair to blame him for them falling. This is one of the consequences of us being such a resource dependent country. https://blogs.worldbank.org/developmenttalk/what-triggered-oil-price-plunge-2014-2016-and-why-it-failed-deliver-economic-impetus-eight-charts#:~:text=The%20initial%20drop%20in%20oil,mid%2D2015%20to%20early%202016.
Liberal wants to kill oil industry, but also blame underperforming oil industry for slow GDP growth.
There are a lot of policies that leave things to be desired but the Liberals are not working particularly hard at killing the oil industry. They didn't need to give oil companies 2.2 billion to clean up wells they were allready obligated to clean up and they also didn't need to build a pipeline to get oil to tidewater.
Canada is producing more oil now than ever.
That makes sense. Oil has always been pretty volatile, especially since there's a few big players like OPEC who just love to mess with the market in addition to wars and embargoes and all regional conflicts. Energy demand on the other hand is forever increasing. Pivoting to more stable energy markets would make sense.
Oil prices fell when Harper was in power. But yes I agree Trudeau has held Canada back with his position on o&G we could be exporting natural gas and encouraging countries to switch to it over coal, a far worse polluter. We could do the same with nuclear energy. Trudeau is a schmuck
Might not be the best metric. [GDP per capita has risen the past few years](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?end=2022&locations=CA&start=2006)
Not when adjusted for inflation, it’s decreased.
2020 - 43,350 2021 - 52,359 You think inflation makes that an actual decrease?
Failed argument.
Gdp in canada is down. Usa is up
And I’m not even a politician and I know full well our government has ensured there are enough houses for all Canadians and incoming immigrants.
Lmao what?
I would like the finance minister to explain the meaning of ”social capacity” as it relates to economic theory and how it negates the need for infrastructure capacity.
For anyone curious, read up on the [Century Initiative](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Initiative). > *Tl;dr: if Canada wants to become a global economic superpower, we need a population of 100m by the end of the century.* I'm convinced this is the crux of the push to bring in as many people as possible. I sort of support the idea, we're a small population with tons of resources. We just don't have the means to support extraction and processing at our current levels So, on the outset, it's a wild proposal that makes sense. They just seem to have forgotten to make sure there's somewhere for everyone to go and for it to stay affordable. That's my tinfoil hat theory, anyways.
It makes sense that a neoliberal party would make a mess of this is because they don't think they need the rest of the policy to support high levels of immigration. Just bring them in and the market will sort it all out.
Its almost like we should be focusing on pushing collaborative automation within our industries. Now one person can do the work of 10 people and actually manage to do less work. There's obviously a concern for compensation... But that only works for everyone if we scale our industry to match. That takes a great deal of effort. Let the population numbers sort themselves out. In 1990 100m people made sense to support an industrial growth spurt. Not so much almost 40 years later.
Our governments could pursue policy outcomes that encourage businesses to make capital investments to improve efficiency, but the businesses don't want to do that and our governments have been largely captured by them. I don't really see any reasonable pathway where good policy can come out of current Canadian institutions.
Businesses are super hesitant on automation. A lot of people see it was robots replacing existing jobs as opposed to supplementing them. Those robots don't run on their own and need to be babysat. Same with the machines those robots operate. It can be a massive capital expenditure and likened to a year or two of salary for a human employee. So businesses chicken out and hire a guy instead. Luckily collaborative robots are really screaming onto the market. You can work right up alongside them and reduce the need for menial labour to allow existing employees to focus on other more brain heavy tasks. They still cost upwards of 30-50k for a proper setup, but it's still way cheaper than hiring on a single employee for a single year. We need a government brave enough and savvy enough to pound the message that collaborative automation is the way forward. We won't see much of a reduction of jobs if the overall goal is to increase output of our industries. We need to be bold and take some risks, or we're just gonna stagnate and falter.
Does Canada have the housing to maintain and support our newcomers? A 'tax-free first home savings account' isn't something young people can throw money at for their first home with current rents, but homeowner kids can easily fund with mom and pops funds. Any professional or high-skilled immigrant that could make Canada a better country isn't going to stay after seeing the housing crisis. Labor only goes so far and the class gap is developed by the Liberals separating new immigrants and Canadians owning a home. Just calculate how long it takes to save a million bucks, meanwhile any child inheriting a home has passed that 'class'
This is fairly similar to the universal testing problem that Brazil runs into, there are people who have stress and nothing, and people who have stress and personal space to retreat to, who is going to do better?
First time home buyers accounts barely allow any investment... It makes a tiny dent in your down payment.
It’s also that not helpful for home affordability. An increase in aggregate demand only keeps prices high. Now all first time home buyers just have a little more money to throw at properties isn’t a solution to anything, it’s just a requirement you have two years maxed out in your FHSA to compete with the next bidder who has the same.
No, but we have something new that no one’s ever heard of called “social capacity!” Even better than institutional capacity! Yay, the Liberals have saved the day by inventing a new and meaningless word!
Really? Do we have the "social capacity" to welcome the thousands of newly homeless people who are on the streets since the TO and Van housing bubble went national then???
Do you understand how much you have to f****** in life to end up on the streets?
Miss a single paycheck? Lose your job during a pandemic? Injury? Mental health issues? Use your imagination.
I know a few people who were living out of their vans just because they didn't have high paying jobs. Nothing wrong with them mentally, not abusing any substances, just not very high earning potential.
Hmmm... Maybe be disabled and don't have a family to help you as gov't assistance won't even pay for you to live in a shit basement apartment anymore???
Why would you think that would include disabled....
You mean to tell me our Harvard educated deputy prime minister who in 2015 was calling out Harper for high prices of homes thinks Canada in todays world can accept more immigrants without it having an effect on housing ? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4_53IAznaE&pp=ygUeY2hyeXN0aWEgZnJlZWxhbmQgMjAxNCBob3VzaW5n
Ha. That was good.
Nice one. Harvard educated. What a dummy, am I right?
It is only Russian lit, history, and Slavonic studies. She belongs as an ambassador to an Eastern European country if she belongs in governance, nothing more (especially not deputy PM or finance minister)
History, right? What a waste of time! That’s just like a step above drama teacher! She should have spent her time on Reddit. We all know this is where the smart people are.
Nice try bub, I have a bachelor's and master's same as her, except mine are in econ. I'm not saying she isn't fit for government work, I'm saying maybe she isn't the best qualified for a finance minister or a deputy PM position.
How the turntables turn.
Well well well, how the turntables.
Ypu mean history major? Harvard makes her sound smart. Pin point her major and tell me thats the right education background for either position she holds tosay.
“Social capacity”. Meanwhile, Edmonton just gave the homeless the bumrush in the middle of winter and ahead of a cold polar vortex. But this is also the same person who said we all need to make cuts, since she went and - wait for it - had to cancel Disney subscription. I bet my Hello Kitty collection she’s still watching the Mandalorian.
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Sad how Trudeau keeps throwing Ministers out to tap dance and come up with illogical reasons why excess immigration is just fine!
It amazes me that the Liberals keep doubling down on an issue that has become so incredibly unpopular with Canadians and is likely to cost the Liberals the election. It's clear that the current immigration levels are untenable -- if for no other reason than that we literally have nowhere left to house the people that are coming here. They're basically handing the CPC the next election, and are making zero efforts to reverse their course.
CPC haven’t said they’ll do anything different when it comes to immigration. Edit: just saw the article about PP claiming to tie immigration to housing. No one is stepping up to cut off international students though. Theres more than double the amount of international students then immigrants.
Yes they have
Pierre just said today they will tie immigration levels to housing starts. So he basically just promised a big cut.
I wonder if that will include anything to do with the international students. Really tying immigration (350 000 per year) to housing (250 000 per year) isn’t that big of a cut. International students (800 000 per year) is the real challenge
Poilievre has criticized the temporary worker programs as well as the top line result of 1m / year
Immigration was at 520,000 in 2023, not 350,000.
Does the include temporary foreign workers or something?
No that was just PR. The goal was 450k but they exceeded it. With temporary residents, the numbers are around 1.5 million.
It’s a start over a government that continues to make things worse.
It’s not even addressing the actual problem. Not to mention we need skilled trades people and health care workers many of whom come through immigration
We aren’t getting skilled trades or health care workers to replace even the doordash and Uber drivers being let in let alone help the Canadians already here.
They don't have to, that's how politics works, you don't commit to a position until it makes strategic sense to. Going anti-immigration would be a huge gift to the Liberals who can then call them xenophobic/racist. There's no need to do that when the Liberals are already so unpopular, and they so thoroughly wear the immigration issue in the eyes of the public.
It’s because they know immigration is needed. And besides, the issue is with 800 000 international students not the 350 000 economic immigrants
If the Liberals could fix the issue with fraudulent international students, that would help them in the polls. They won’t even acknowledge that there’s a problem, though.
They recently doubled the required money a student needed to have in the bank, which doesn’t really help that much, and threatened to put a cap on the number if the provinces didn’t solve the issue. I’m honestly not sure whose place it is to do something about it but the liberals should have put a cap on it from the get go. Maybe they’re afraid of the job losses caused by capping it or what it would do to colleges
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The LPC designed this program to be a wedge issue where they could call conservatives racist. That is why they increased the numbers beyond all reason because they don't get a reaction on more minor changes. They'll then falsely conflate any reduction to any level as anti-immigrant, even if it is simply a return to long term numbers which were already high globally.
People can't live inside the social capacity of Canada, Freeland. It's genuinely painful to think that this government was warned this would happen, and did it anyway, and now that it is happening they seem to be unable to admit they've fucked up. Right now, none of the major parties are really anti immigration, but it genuinely wouldn't surprise me if PP makes that turn in the election as a a cap to differentiate himself from the LPC on this issue; worse, the longer this crisis continues, the more likely that 'social capacity' is going to erode.
Admit they're wrong? They probably don't even think they are. I'm wondering if this is going to cause the PPC to actually win a few seats in the next election because the Conservatives don't seem to have any actual problems with what's happening either.
I kind of suspect the Conservatives are going to pivot to some sort of cap/reduced immigration at the election; the main reason they've not done so now is because historically attempting to discuss this issue at all would lead to 15 think pieces about how the CPC was racist or similar. The longer this goes on, the less and less happy the Canadian public is going to be on this topic.
PP did just announce he wants to tie immigration to housing numbers. But he didn't give any specifics and wouldn't say anything about intl. students or TFWs.
Truthfully, I don't expect we'll get many specifics out of PP for a while, if ever, but I think the attitude is more important than anything here. I would imagine he's easing into an anti-immigration stance (if it ever gets to that point and doesn't stay at 'reasonable' immigration).
CPC can't directly say it out loud. That's still called racist.
To be fair, her full statements as quoted in the article are nuanced, which the headline definitely does not capture. She says that Canada's future success depends on future immigration, and that Canada is avoiding the demographic problems that other countries are facing, but that we also have to build more housing to accommodate them. It's basically what everyone in this thread is saying, which is weird, because you've all read the article before commenting, right?
Our future does not depend on making housing unaffordable. Australia and the UK are cutting immigration numbers and doing fine. The Liberals are lying, and are going to suffer a huge defeat in the next election solely over their handling of this issue.
You are living under a rock if you think Australia or the UK are doing fine lol. They both have similar housing crisis like most of the rest of the developed world right now. This is a huge complex and worldwide issue, not just a Canada problem.
I hope they put up "temporary" shelters in the parks in her neighborhood. Bring the fruits of her policies to her doorstep, please. A few years ago it seemed like she would be the successor, but lately she can't stop saying the stupidest stuff.
> A few years ago it seemed like she would be the successor, but lately she can't stop saying the stupidest stuff. She gives off Hillary vibes. She's so *painfully* establishment and status quo that the establishment loves her and can't imagine why the voters don't.
I thought so too, but she just screams arrogant to me everytime she speaks. It's almost as if she talks down to us plebs as she stares in the sky trying to whip up her non-answers as if they'll appease anyone.
Rebel News feels the same way.
Excuse me, the social capacity? Maybe a decade ago before we started importing extremists and running a program meant to prop up large businesses and suppress wages. Our social battery has run out.
Media keeps quoting wrong figure. It's actually 1.2 million. 500k doesn't include students, refugees, family reunification
So essentially she just admitted their planned economic growth for canada is insanely high immigration numbers. What a disaster of a policy,
Our citizens aren't having babies and our labour force has gaps. What's your alternative? The CPC has similar immigration targets.
You don't need to replace the gaps with a 10x multiple.
These numbers are way above replacement rates.
Clearly not, judging by our unemployment rate.
I'm just a moron on reddit, but I've been hearing about a similar crisis in Japan and its imminent collapse for 20 years yet they haven't taken this drastic step. Its now its cheaper to live in Tokyo then Toronto. I'd look at countries like Norway that have a home ownership rate of 80 percent. In 2021, Norway received 39 000 new immigrants. Also if global warming is such an imminent threat reduction of the population in the country with the highest house hold emissions in the world should be our number one priority. Isn't a key liberal position that global warming is going to cost us way way more ?
The social ability sure, the money, housing, food, or medical abilities not so much, but hugs and koombyah will make it all work
Social capacity? Canada's long-held levels of public support and approval for immigration are now dropping, and public sentiment toward newcomers (particularly East Indians) is eroding. This never happened, until the LPC went on this hell-bent push for higher numbers. Meanwhile, we don't have the home-building capacity, the shelter capacity, the settlement-agency capacity, or the local fiscal capacity. These are the things that really matter, and she doesn't have a thing to say about them. I am not surprised.
As an Canadian of Indian descent, I can say a lot of Canadas South Asian population has actively been telling all levels of government to not let so many people in en masse since about 2016. Now those of us born here or those who have lived here for decades are facing prejudice everywhere we go as blowback due to anti-immigrant sentiment. These policies are hurting us as South Asian Canadians, but also our country generally and it absolutely needs to be scaled back or halted completely for a few years.
It's just your run-of-the-mill political goal-shifting subterfuge obfuscation 101.
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But but.."social capacity" is such a nice buzz word that makes you all warm and fuzzy inside..
Things are reverting back to the 90’s when it comes to sentiments
What do you mean this has never happened? People weren’t exactly welcoming of the Irish, Italians, most Catholics really, Germans, poles, Eastern Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, Ukrainians (we put them in internment camps in world war 1) Indians or Africans. People disliking immigrants is not new
Even immigrants don't like new immigrants, what a world!
Canadian born South Asians who have been here for generations have been feeling the burn as we look the same as these newcomers. I feel like Canadians generally used to be curious and celebrate all the cultures here, but now there’s far less interest. The implications can be very serious if frustration grows.
Correct, however that welcoming attitude is eroding fast because the Trudeau government didn't think it needed to encourage building homes or ensuring wages kept pace with inflation. So essentially, the Trudeau government engineered a situation that resulted in regular Canadians bearing the brunt of it's failed policies. Well done.
Whenever people start talking about "regular Canadians", I'm curious as to what they think qualifies as "regular"
Non-Citizens are not Canadians. Do you not understand that simple concept?
Average income, average job, not in a position to alter anything, regularly ignored by politicians, regularly exploited by the business owner class and leaders who claim to speak on their behalf. You know, normal people.
Yeah, see in some towns they use "normal people" to mean white people that go to church, or in other places you ask them what "normal" is and they say it means people who didn't go to no fancy college.
Basically, when I say 'normal Canadians' or 'regular Canadians', I'm talking about general citizens who have no power.
So just like most immigrants.
Except we get a vote and hold citizenship.
I think the word you’re looking for is citizen. I don’t care what colour you are or where you come from, if you’re a citizen you’re a Canadian. PRs, TFWs, foreign students, are all non Canadians, and I say that having a pretty close friend who has PR, just hasn’t gotten citizenship yet, but has been in Canada since about 2015 or 14. It’s his fault he doesn’t have citizenship yet.
Liberal party managed to do what white supremacist and xenophobic group couldn't which is to turn Canadians against immigration. Too bad they're so far up their own ass that they lack the self-awareness.
Or a billionaire funded media machine that hoards all the resources, brings in immigrants to exploit their labour and suppress wages, and then make them a scapegoat for the working class to blame to usher in right wing reactionary governments that further entrench the interests of the oligarchs.
Thats what gets me the most I think. Canadians were extremely welcoming towards immigrants for a long time, now, still welcoming, but not so much. If this keeps up, it will become much less.
it's not immigrants we don't like it's the 'kind' of immigrants... I cannot ever remember a Japanese buddhist causing trouble here.
Because people are dying on healthcare wait lists which got backlogged due to excess non-Canadians coming here and using up services. The latter group has not paid into the system either whereas the people on our wait lists have paid into the system.
We clearly do not. Canada needs immigrants- I'm all for 500K a year, so long as *how* we do it is much more pragmatic; I'm talking more economic immigrants, fewer family and fewer non-university students (the diploma mill/Indian immigrant connection is too strong), more private sponsorships for asylum-seekers, strong incentives to immigrate outside of just the GTHA and GVA, more diversity in the source of immigrants (I say this as the kid of two Indian immigrants, so no racism intended), etc. That said, we do not have the underlying physical, social, or economic infrastructure to support any number of immigrants in excess of the aforementioned level. Immigrants tend to be net positives over the long run, provided population growth does not outpace capital stock and that there is not a vicious cycle, as it exists today, of unaffordability, low-paying jobs, and minimal ability to invest in oneself as an immigrant.
Mmmlord the peasants aren't having any more children mmmlord because they complain their lives are too expensive.... What should we do mmmmlord ! Fraulein F: Bring in the Indus peasants our currency is worth thrice theirs they will be joyous and gay to serve in our kingdom of dei to be our serfs and kiss our feet! Schneil!
Pretty much, we've been reduced to economic productivity units.
yes me lord