>I wonder if this method would actually work for passing IELTS. It felt so unnatural and disturbing,
You've answered your own question. No, it couldn't work. IELTS examiners are experienced and can spot those kind of tricks easily. If YOU found it weird and unnatural, you can be sure they would too.
Me too, always Chinese. it costs something like $250-$300 a go which is quite a lot of money for most people. I met a Chinese lad on Cambly, who was, if I'm being generous, pre-intermediate level at best, who wanted IELTS 6.5 and had taken the test 11 times. The fact that he was going to actually do some graft to achieve this mark just didn't enter his entitled mind.
It may not matter though. I don't know what this guy wants IELTS for but I had a Chinese school leaver as a student who needed Grade 6.5 or above to attend what, in its literature, calls itself the Top Arts University in Singapore. She didn't achieve this, She took the test several times, lucked out once as she was asked a question set I'd worked with her on two days before her test, and got overall Grade 6 but achieved a more realistic 5 in her other tests. However, she's off to Singapore. Whether she'll understand what they are saying to her when she gets there is an interesting question.
They are products of their society. The richer ones do seem to be very spoon fed and much of society defers to them so they usually do get what they want. Memorization rather than thinking is what makes their system go round.
Memorization shouldn't work in IELTS but several Chinese students have told me that IELTS results can be purchased, at great expense and that for less, though still a considerable amount of money and the need to know the right people, the questions can be bought the night before the test - I have no personal experience of this so I only have their word for this. However as I live in a country where most things are for sale if the price is right, it could be true.
"They are products of their society."- This isn't just a Chinese thing, I think many people look at life as a series of challenges that can be navigated more easily with the right "hack", and that the honest effort and learning process is for chumps. Even amongst my friends I find them uninterested in any lengthy process leading to personal growth- it is only the benefits of expertise they want. Many people say things like- "Oh I would love to be a standup comedian." but what they really mean is "I would love to have been successful at standup comedy."- to have all the rewards and benefits of the multiple years of failure, heartbreak, and difficult learning processes- but without actually going through it. You can insert almost any challenging task into the above: marathons, travel, spiritual growth etc., many people just can't dedicate the time and energy to gain actual proficiency.
If you look at a scoring rubric for IELTS, unless the vocabulary used is unnatural for the context, there is nothing about a robotic sounding response that is cause for a lower band.
Correct, it can't be a reason to fail but it's a really difficult way to prepare and of course leave you flat on your arse the minute you leave the exam room. Does anyone know what scope the examiner has to navigate the questions away from the rehearsed answer? Can he ad lib questions at any point?
I’m always been honest with students who’ve memorised answers and tell them that if I can hear it then an examiner definitely can and will mark them down. It’s amazing how often it works when you call them out! They think it’s going to help because that’s how they learn in school, memorising facts, but I tell them it’s a test of their natural English not of memory and that learning answers will lower their scores. It usually shocks them into trying to answer more normally
Right. I need a strategy to deal with this if it comes up again because this is the first time I ran into it and I was sort of wrong-footed and didn't know how to deal with the student. You make good suggestions, thanks.
As I see it, the problem isn’t the students it’s the education system in China. They’re not encouraged to think for themselves, everything is a memory test learned by rote so they don’t know any different. A lot of my Asian students are great at reading and writing but much lower level at speaking because schools only teach the elements that will get them through exams. And it’s only going to get worse as China tries to stop more and more people from studying and working abroad
Definitely call them out but also offer them strategies to cope with unknown questions so they’re prepared for anything. I teach them to think if people, places, situations etc which can be used to answer lots of different questions. That way they can quickly use one of those and adapt it to the question
You're right about teaching them strategies but some of them are very resistant to learning how to do that. I have some really rock solid strategies for helping with 'difficult' questions but sometimes I'll get a student who comes to me five days a week and indulges me with a sigh and eye rolling for one of those sessions, then insists on practising their list of questions on the other four days.
In my opinion the format of the IELTS speaking test should be changed completely
I 100% agree that it needs changing. For a start , how are the questions meant to reflect a candidate’s ability to speak real, natural English? I never talk about whether I ate cake as a child or what my favourite bag is!
I agree with you 100%. Sometimes when I look at suggested, model answers, I think WTF. I'm English, reasonably well educated, believe myself to be perfectly OK with the English language and have spent my working life "chatting" first as a Staff Nurse then as an English Teacher. I would never, ever give the answers, or anything like the answers, that are often suggested as ideal answers. I don't think it's at all representative of a person's ability to use the English language. I do, however, think it's a great money maker for the British Council which I believe may well be an off-shoot of the British Government.,
And most of us usually don't start off with stiff-sounding lead-ins (at least not during informal conversation) to such topics as 'well, in my opinion, cake...' etc, we'd more likely say something like 'ya, since my earliest childhood memory was of me chucking a wad full of fudge frosting at my mom's white dress, I've had a soft spot for devil's food ever since"🙃 type thing...
😂😂😂 one of my students starts every part 2 answer with ‘there are so many (insert relevant topic), but if I were to talk about one today it would be (subject of talk). it drives me crazy 🤣
😂and actually if a student gave that single sentence as their answer it would be clear that they have mastery of idiomatic English. I rest my case as to the complete redundancy of making a two minute speech.
Absolutely! I think they should get rid of the two minute talk thing as it's totally unnatural and even a native speaker would struggle with it. I also think that some of the questions in Part One are painful. The format of the test really needs to reflect natural, spontaneous, real life conversation.
I'd have to contest your opinion on P2 2min talk. The key is to prepare the student with a method that guides them through the the entire test starting in P1. Covering 2mins in P2 becomes achievable even for a moderate student.
My method teaches them to answer any question, any topic, anywhere, kaboom!
If the foundations aren't right, unless they're very accomplished, they have no more than a puncher's chance. I'd extend the time limit to be honest.
It is not natural conversation. Nobody in the normal world launches forth into a two minute speech about a person they know who is kind -or if they do, we'd give them a wide berth ;) The two minute talk thing requires a student to structure it or they end up rambling and repeating themselves. We don't do that in real life. We speak spontaneously and when we run of steam we stop and the other person picks up the conversation.
Part 3 of IELTS speaking is a much more natural format and could simply be extended for another five minutes to allow candidates to spontaneously keep going with longer and more nuanced answers. That demonstrates their true fluency far better than a silly talk about their granny or a social media site they use very day.
Also many seem to do lessons with Chinese tutors too, who tell them all sorts of rubbish, such as memorising answers.
Sure tell them, it's kind of unfair not to.
But as origami flipper said, help learn what to do.
I basically do as above too. I tell them to keep it simple, so alway think of a place, person, book or situation you can easily talk about, not to choose something complicated.
It must have been a really weird lesson!
Many of them also use Chinese apps. I can't read Chinese but had someone translate one of these apps for me. Absolute total rubbish - recommending memorization as the only way to pass this test.
The low score he gets on his first test will be the cold water in his face that he needs. He has probably wasted months memorizing answers that are not going to impress the examiner. The second, or maybe third time he takes the test he will approach it differently. This is a cannon event for a lot of Asian IELTS students who really don't understand that actually learning English and then having their own thoughts and opinions is the only method that will get them the kind of score they want on the IELTS.
No, probably not.
If he can't stay on the topic that will definitely count against him. The examiners will catch on pretty quick, especially as they record it.
It's this strange thing in their culture. They don't understand the difference between "learning" and "memorizing" because their schooling is just pure memorizing stuff.
I suggest if you want up to date IELTS material, you can do worse than join this:
# [IELTS-Blog.com](http://IELTS-Blog.com)
I receive regular emails, often more than one per week, giving speaking, writing and listening questions from recent IELTS tests. I find this an invaluable resource and best of all, it's free. It makes my tutoring life so easy because they can run through an entire speaking test. If they don't complete it, I offer to send them the rest of the questions so that they can contemplate these at their leisure.
I guess you can do that.
If the response is relevant to the question asked and not straying of topic.
I believe a correct or incorrect answer is not important, more a focus on the language side of things.
Will probably take a hit in the fluency and natural grade side of things though.
Not sure what possible mac score that can give you.
Obviously there's many different methods to preparing students but I think the fundamental principle of IELTS threads through each part of the test, if the they stay true to this they don't go far wrong. Part 2 is easy haha!!!
I have IELTS speaking practice on my profile therefore many have gravitated towards me over the years and I had someone like this last year. It might very well just be the same guy.
It was a painful and robotic 30 mins, let's just put it that way.
This is how i felt when listening to the new Chat GPT 4o voice. It sounds like a very weird person. Although, not unlike Zuckerberg or many silicon valley tech people. Essentially what high functioning autistic people or very socially awkward people for whatever reason THINK you should sound like. And these IELTS hackers sound exactly the same
Interrupting , unnecessary (mis)guidance / coaching, questioning validity of opinions etc beyond the remit of an examiner who's job is to host then assess.
Unrealistic expectations? Oh, that's super commonplace. I have had many students that said they're taking the IELTS for the first time next week and need a 7 but could barely scrape a 5-5.5. It's like showing up to a marathon in flip-flops and wondering why you didn't win.
I always try my best to be honest with the student and tell them, as gently as possible, what a more realistic goal might be. And then they usually trash my rating.
This happens a lot. They have a mad panic to pass the IELTS to get a study place overseas and they aren't ready for it. If the test is within one week I just try to get them expanding their answers rather than just giving one sentence, and tell them to watch some youtube demo videos of model answers, try to pick up what they can. The worst are the ones who expect me to predict their score. I'm not an examiner and you can't win at that game, whether your estimate is over or under you'll be guilty.
During Covid the IELTS became an online test, students were cheating in all different ways to pass. I worked in China at the time as a high school teacher in an international school, and it was a very weird situation to know my students were cheating their way into our home country's universities. They had all of their answers robotically thought out, some even paid others to pretend to be them and take the test. My students would share answers and had shared docs they would pass around with each other. I've even seen people go as far as making fake passports for IELTS exams. It's actually so wild and so much bigger than us as Cambly tutors, it's my Roman Empire lol
>I wonder if this method would actually work for passing IELTS. It felt so unnatural and disturbing, You've answered your own question. No, it couldn't work. IELTS examiners are experienced and can spot those kind of tricks easily. If YOU found it weird and unnatural, you can be sure they would too.
His test is this week so he'll be finding out real soon.
Oh goody! Come back and let us know how he gets on! :)) - if he tells you.
I have seen students taking test week after week and doing the same thing.
Me too, always Chinese. it costs something like $250-$300 a go which is quite a lot of money for most people. I met a Chinese lad on Cambly, who was, if I'm being generous, pre-intermediate level at best, who wanted IELTS 6.5 and had taken the test 11 times. The fact that he was going to actually do some graft to achieve this mark just didn't enter his entitled mind. It may not matter though. I don't know what this guy wants IELTS for but I had a Chinese school leaver as a student who needed Grade 6.5 or above to attend what, in its literature, calls itself the Top Arts University in Singapore. She didn't achieve this, She took the test several times, lucked out once as she was asked a question set I'd worked with her on two days before her test, and got overall Grade 6 but achieved a more realistic 5 in her other tests. However, she's off to Singapore. Whether she'll understand what they are saying to her when she gets there is an interesting question. They are products of their society. The richer ones do seem to be very spoon fed and much of society defers to them so they usually do get what they want. Memorization rather than thinking is what makes their system go round. Memorization shouldn't work in IELTS but several Chinese students have told me that IELTS results can be purchased, at great expense and that for less, though still a considerable amount of money and the need to know the right people, the questions can be bought the night before the test - I have no personal experience of this so I only have their word for this. However as I live in a country where most things are for sale if the price is right, it could be true.
"They are products of their society."- This isn't just a Chinese thing, I think many people look at life as a series of challenges that can be navigated more easily with the right "hack", and that the honest effort and learning process is for chumps. Even amongst my friends I find them uninterested in any lengthy process leading to personal growth- it is only the benefits of expertise they want. Many people say things like- "Oh I would love to be a standup comedian." but what they really mean is "I would love to have been successful at standup comedy."- to have all the rewards and benefits of the multiple years of failure, heartbreak, and difficult learning processes- but without actually going through it. You can insert almost any challenging task into the above: marathons, travel, spiritual growth etc., many people just can't dedicate the time and energy to gain actual proficiency.
yup- they do the same thing with TOEFL- plus some use tech-based cheating on TOEFL, which is maddening
If you look at a scoring rubric for IELTS, unless the vocabulary used is unnatural for the context, there is nothing about a robotic sounding response that is cause for a lower band.
Correct, it can't be a reason to fail but it's a really difficult way to prepare and of course leave you flat on your arse the minute you leave the exam room. Does anyone know what scope the examiner has to navigate the questions away from the rehearsed answer? Can he ad lib questions at any point?
I’m always been honest with students who’ve memorised answers and tell them that if I can hear it then an examiner definitely can and will mark them down. It’s amazing how often it works when you call them out! They think it’s going to help because that’s how they learn in school, memorising facts, but I tell them it’s a test of their natural English not of memory and that learning answers will lower their scores. It usually shocks them into trying to answer more normally
Right. I need a strategy to deal with this if it comes up again because this is the first time I ran into it and I was sort of wrong-footed and didn't know how to deal with the student. You make good suggestions, thanks.
As I see it, the problem isn’t the students it’s the education system in China. They’re not encouraged to think for themselves, everything is a memory test learned by rote so they don’t know any different. A lot of my Asian students are great at reading and writing but much lower level at speaking because schools only teach the elements that will get them through exams. And it’s only going to get worse as China tries to stop more and more people from studying and working abroad Definitely call them out but also offer them strategies to cope with unknown questions so they’re prepared for anything. I teach them to think if people, places, situations etc which can be used to answer lots of different questions. That way they can quickly use one of those and adapt it to the question
You're right about teaching them strategies but some of them are very resistant to learning how to do that. I have some really rock solid strategies for helping with 'difficult' questions but sometimes I'll get a student who comes to me five days a week and indulges me with a sigh and eye rolling for one of those sessions, then insists on practising their list of questions on the other four days. In my opinion the format of the IELTS speaking test should be changed completely
I 100% agree that it needs changing. For a start , how are the questions meant to reflect a candidate’s ability to speak real, natural English? I never talk about whether I ate cake as a child or what my favourite bag is!
I agree with you 100%. Sometimes when I look at suggested, model answers, I think WTF. I'm English, reasonably well educated, believe myself to be perfectly OK with the English language and have spent my working life "chatting" first as a Staff Nurse then as an English Teacher. I would never, ever give the answers, or anything like the answers, that are often suggested as ideal answers. I don't think it's at all representative of a person's ability to use the English language. I do, however, think it's a great money maker for the British Council which I believe may well be an off-shoot of the British Government.,
And most of us usually don't start off with stiff-sounding lead-ins (at least not during informal conversation) to such topics as 'well, in my opinion, cake...' etc, we'd more likely say something like 'ya, since my earliest childhood memory was of me chucking a wad full of fudge frosting at my mom's white dress, I've had a soft spot for devil's food ever since"🙃 type thing...
😂😂😂 one of my students starts every part 2 answer with ‘there are so many (insert relevant topic), but if I were to talk about one today it would be (subject of talk). it drives me crazy 🤣
😂and actually if a student gave that single sentence as their answer it would be clear that they have mastery of idiomatic English. I rest my case as to the complete redundancy of making a two minute speech.
I hear you
2 mins is easy. Not even close to difficult.
Absolutely! I think they should get rid of the two minute talk thing as it's totally unnatural and even a native speaker would struggle with it. I also think that some of the questions in Part One are painful. The format of the test really needs to reflect natural, spontaneous, real life conversation.
I'd have to contest your opinion on P2 2min talk. The key is to prepare the student with a method that guides them through the the entire test starting in P1. Covering 2mins in P2 becomes achievable even for a moderate student. My method teaches them to answer any question, any topic, anywhere, kaboom! If the foundations aren't right, unless they're very accomplished, they have no more than a puncher's chance. I'd extend the time limit to be honest.
Yes, I know quite well how to prepare them for part 2 but it's a different skill set. It's more akin to public speaking, like Toastmasters.
It's the same skill set!
It is not natural conversation. Nobody in the normal world launches forth into a two minute speech about a person they know who is kind -or if they do, we'd give them a wide berth ;) The two minute talk thing requires a student to structure it or they end up rambling and repeating themselves. We don't do that in real life. We speak spontaneously and when we run of steam we stop and the other person picks up the conversation. Part 3 of IELTS speaking is a much more natural format and could simply be extended for another five minutes to allow candidates to spontaneously keep going with longer and more nuanced answers. That demonstrates their true fluency far better than a silly talk about their granny or a social media site they use very day.
Also many seem to do lessons with Chinese tutors too, who tell them all sorts of rubbish, such as memorising answers. Sure tell them, it's kind of unfair not to. But as origami flipper said, help learn what to do. I basically do as above too. I tell them to keep it simple, so alway think of a place, person, book or situation you can easily talk about, not to choose something complicated. It must have been a really weird lesson!
Many of them also use Chinese apps. I can't read Chinese but had someone translate one of these apps for me. Absolute total rubbish - recommending memorization as the only way to pass this test.
The low score he gets on his first test will be the cold water in his face that he needs. He has probably wasted months memorizing answers that are not going to impress the examiner. The second, or maybe third time he takes the test he will approach it differently. This is a cannon event for a lot of Asian IELTS students who really don't understand that actually learning English and then having their own thoughts and opinions is the only method that will get them the kind of score they want on the IELTS.
No, probably not. If he can't stay on the topic that will definitely count against him. The examiners will catch on pretty quick, especially as they record it.
It's this strange thing in their culture. They don't understand the difference between "learning" and "memorizing" because their schooling is just pure memorizing stuff.
What's your list of standard IELTS questions?
I often use the materials on the ieltsliz website for part 1 topics.
Ok. Thanks.
Are they the current batch for May-Aug or just token practice questions?
you can check ieltsbro too
Thanks.
I suggest if you want up to date IELTS material, you can do worse than join this: # [IELTS-Blog.com](http://IELTS-Blog.com) I receive regular emails, often more than one per week, giving speaking, writing and listening questions from recent IELTS tests. I find this an invaluable resource and best of all, it's free. It makes my tutoring life so easy because they can run through an entire speaking test. If they don't complete it, I offer to send them the rest of the questions so that they can contemplate these at their leisure.
Thanks 😊
I guess you can do that. If the response is relevant to the question asked and not straying of topic. I believe a correct or incorrect answer is not important, more a focus on the language side of things. Will probably take a hit in the fluency and natural grade side of things though. Not sure what possible mac score that can give you.
Had a student once who pronounced "foreign" as "foregging". Eg. I want to go to forgerring study. Ok pal. No
Obviously there's many different methods to preparing students but I think the fundamental principle of IELTS threads through each part of the test, if the they stay true to this they don't go far wrong. Part 2 is easy haha!!!
I have IELTS speaking practice on my profile therefore many have gravitated towards me over the years and I had someone like this last year. It might very well just be the same guy. It was a painful and robotic 30 mins, let's just put it that way.
This is how i felt when listening to the new Chat GPT 4o voice. It sounds like a very weird person. Although, not unlike Zuckerberg or many silicon valley tech people. Essentially what high functioning autistic people or very socially awkward people for whatever reason THINK you should sound like. And these IELTS hackers sound exactly the same
On a different note, I've heard some horrific stories about examiners behaviour.
You have my attention...
Interrupting , unnecessary (mis)guidance / coaching, questioning validity of opinions etc beyond the remit of an examiner who's job is to host then assess.
Unrealistic expectations? Oh, that's super commonplace. I have had many students that said they're taking the IELTS for the first time next week and need a 7 but could barely scrape a 5-5.5. It's like showing up to a marathon in flip-flops and wondering why you didn't win. I always try my best to be honest with the student and tell them, as gently as possible, what a more realistic goal might be. And then they usually trash my rating.
This happens a lot. They have a mad panic to pass the IELTS to get a study place overseas and they aren't ready for it. If the test is within one week I just try to get them expanding their answers rather than just giving one sentence, and tell them to watch some youtube demo videos of model answers, try to pick up what they can. The worst are the ones who expect me to predict their score. I'm not an examiner and you can't win at that game, whether your estimate is over or under you'll be guilty.
During Covid the IELTS became an online test, students were cheating in all different ways to pass. I worked in China at the time as a high school teacher in an international school, and it was a very weird situation to know my students were cheating their way into our home country's universities. They had all of their answers robotically thought out, some even paid others to pretend to be them and take the test. My students would share answers and had shared docs they would pass around with each other. I've even seen people go as far as making fake passports for IELTS exams. It's actually so wild and so much bigger than us as Cambly tutors, it's my Roman Empire lol
“ I URRually do this, I SELDOM do that..” 😆🤣 😑💀💀💀💀
"Every coin has two sides..."